The Staten Island Problem - Part 1: The Mayor vs. the Borough President

Summary

Podcast Summary: Revisionist History – The Staten Island Problem, Part 1: The Mayor vs. the Borough President

Podcast: Revisionist History
Episode: The Staten Island Problem – Part 1: The Mayor vs. the Borough President
Host & Reporter: Ben Nadifafry
Original Airdate: July 9, 2026

---

Overview

The first episode of "The Staten Island Problem" introduces listeners to a pivotal, yet overlooked, moment in New York City—and U.S.—history: Staten Island's drive to secede from New York City in the early 1990s. Set against the backdrop of a turbulent NYC—rising homicide rates, racial tensions, police controversies, and a changing demographic and political landscape—the episode reconstructs the opening skirmishes of Staten Island’s secession battle. Through archival audio and fresh interviews, the show examines how resentment, identity, and leadership shaped the dynamics between NYC’s first Black mayor, David Dinkins, and the fiery Staten Island Borough President, Guy Molinari. The episode casts the Staten Island secession movement as a prism through which to view fractures in American democracy, both past and present.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Staten Island: The “Forgotten Borough” (03:02–08:40)

• Host Ben Nadifafry begins by sharing his childhood fascination with the idealized version of New York, admitting Staten Island never entered his fantasy.
  • ''In all my reveries, I never thought about the most remote part of New York City. Staten Island.'' (03:43)
• Explains Staten Island’s geographic and cultural separation: single-family homes, car culture, predominantly white and conservative—standing in stark contrast to the more diverse and liberal identity of the other boroughs.
  • ''New York City is all shoebox apartments. Staten Island is single family homes... New York City is defined by its subway. Staten Island has a single dinky railway, and everyone drives a car anyways.'' (05:14)
• Chronicles the borough’s sense of neglect—nicknamed “the forgotten borough”—and its history as NYC’s dumping ground.
  • ''It was once the place where New York City put most of its trash. Literally the largest landfill on the planet.'' (06:19)
• Staten Islanders began pushing to secede in the late 1980s, feeling that remaining in NYC meant continual marginalization and exploitation.

2. Background: New York City in Chaos (08:40–10:04)

• Archival Malcolm Gladwell clip contextualizes the era: NYC was considered so troubled that even correspondents at major newspapers hesitated to take assignments there.
  • Gladwell: ''Nobody wanted the job... You had, like, a credit card... an assistant... a lovely office... but I was the only person who applied.'' (09:19)

3. The Rise of Mayor David Dinkins (10:04–13:52)

• Marsha Smith recalls Dinkins’s conciliatory temperament and his election as NYC’s first Black mayor.
  • ''He used to call us cupcakes.'' (10:44, Smith)
  • ''This was a big moment. I felt it was very hopeful. I could also feel the skepticism, that felt like there was a lot at stake, a lot of eyes on you guys.'' (11:18, Smith)
• Dinkins had to be persuaded to run—his candidacy seen as emblematic of NYC's changing demographics.
  • ''But here's a Black borough president with some knowledge of state government and city government, for sure. Perfect candidate for mayor. And I promise you that he was pushed to make that decision.'' (11:53)
• Anecdotes highlight Dinkins’s fastidiousness and formality, signifying a mismatch with NYC’s “chaos.”

4. The Mosaic Vision vs. Secession (13:52–15:54)

• Dinkins professes his intent to be a unifying mayor, describing NYC as a “gorgeous mosaic” of diversity.
  • ''I intend to be the mayor of all the people of New York. From City island to Staten Island…'' (14:24, Dinkins)
• Staten Island’s push for secession accelerates just as Dinkins takes office; many saw this as racially motivated.
  • “Oh, my God, what are they thinking? ...Of course, they're thinking that because they don't want to be governed by a black mayor.” (15:54, Smith)
  • “So it immediately seemed racially tinged to you." – "Absolutely." (16:01–16:04)

5. The Implications of Secession (16:05–17:26)

• Dinkins’s administration realized Staten Island’s secession would devastate the city financially (loss of land, people, infrastructure, workers—including police officers, and aid).
• Determined to quell the momentum, Dinkins personally planned to visit and argue against secession.

6. The Tense Backdrop: Washington Heights Incident (17:59–21:22)

• Explores the 1992 police killing of Kiko Garcia, which triggers riots and exposes rifts between the mayor and NYPD.
  • Scenes of police unrest: ''They said they saw the cop beat Garcia with a walkie talkie...Then two shots.'' (19:03)
• Dinkins supports Garcia’s family, angers police.
  • ''I came to pay my respects and offer my condolences to the family... to assure them everything that can be done will be done…'' (20:39, Dinkins)
  • ''The cops felt Dinkins had sold them out, that he'd sided with the family of a drug dealer…'' (21:22)

7. Enter Guy Molinari: Staten Island’s Defiant Champion (21:29–24:23)

• Guy Molinari—old school, polarizing, beloved on Staten Island—vocally opposes Dinkins and supports the police, sending morale-boosting letters and stirring public sentiment.
  • “The mayor is not vested with the responsibility of giving religious comfort to the family of somebody killed who's a drug dealer...” (21:44, Molinari)
  • ''Blue lives always matter.'' (22:14, Gly Molinari inscription anecdote)
• Dinkins and Molinari’s feud intensifies in public, setting the stage for a political showdown on Staten Island.

8. The Mayor’s Lonely Mission (25:18–31:14)

• Dinkins embarks on a weeklong tour of Staten Island, receiving a chilly welcome laced with barbs and symbolism.
  • Susan Molinari: “Today it's my great pleasure... to present you with an unofficial lock to the garbage dump.” (26:55)
  • Dinkins, visibly displeased, retorts: ''If nothing else, I hope that I can convey to the people of Staten island that I deeply care about them...'' (28:41, Dinkins)
  • ''...By God, he does care.'' (29:36, Dinkins)
• His attempts to evoke civic pride and the “mosaic” largely fall flat amid skepticism.

9. The Climax: Touring Fresh Kills and Escalating Insults (31:14–35:21)

• Dinkins’s visit culminates in a fraught visit to Fresh Kills landfill, with Molinari mocking him for only touring by car:
  • ''Too clean to walk around trash island, huh?'' (34:43, Molinari)
• The week ends as it began: Dinkins exhausted, relations frayed, Staten Island more resolved in its discontent.

10. Lessons and Foreshadowing (35:21–37:38)

• Ben Nadifafry notes that Molinari aimed not just for secession, but for Staten Island to wield leverage over the city itself—drawing parallels to national fractures today.
• Various guests connect the events and rhetoric to modern political polarization, referencing echoes of January 6th.
  • “Did you think of it when you… when January 6th happened?”
    – “Absolutely. There was much chatter among the Dinkins alumni about the parallel.” (37:13–37:19, Smith)
• ''We've seen this before.'' (37:20, Smith)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• ''I promise you that at every turn in this bizarre story, you will say to yourself, I didn't know that. And then, oh, that's how we got to where we are today.'' — Ben Nadifafry (01:17)
• ''It was once the place where New York City put most of its trash. Literally the largest landfill on the planet. But starting in the late 1980s, Staten island had decided it didn't want to be dumped on anymore.'' — Ben Nadifafry (06:19)
• ''I intend to be the mayor of all the people of New York. From City island to Staten Island.'' — David Dinkins (14:24)
• ''Oh, my God, what are they thinking? And, well, of course, they're thinking that because they don't want to be governed by a black mayor.'' — Marsha Smith (15:54)
• ''Today it's my great pleasure... to present you with an unofficial lock to the garbage dump.'' — Susan Molinari (26:55)
• ''If nothing else, I hope that I can convey to the people of Staten island that I deeply care about them and about all of them.'' — David Dinkins (28:41)
• ''You have less than 500,000 people and they got two and a half million people in Brooklyn. Why not go to Brooklyn for eight or nine days and come here for two days? But I'm here for seven days.'' — David Dinkins (29:15)
• ''Too clean to walk around trash island, huh?'' — Guy Molinari (34:43)
• “Did you think of it when you… when January 6th happened?” — Marsha Smith: “Absolutely. There was much chatter among the Dinkins alumni about the parallel.” (37:13–37:19)
• “We've seen this before.” — Marsha Smith (37:20)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introducing the Series and Stakes (host narration) – 01:08–03:02
• Staten Island’s Outlier Status – 03:02–08:40
• NYC in the Early 1990s / Gladwell’s Perspective – 08:40–10:04
• The Rise and Character of David Dinkins – 10:04–13:52
• Dinkins’s Inauguration and Vision – 13:52–15:54
• Immediate Tensions and Racial Dynamics – 15:54–17:26
• Washington Heights Shooting & Fallout – 17:59–21:22
• Guy Molinari’s Profile and Tactics – 21:29–24:23
• Dinkins's Staten Island Visit – 25:18–31:14
• Dump Tour and Escalation – 34:00–35:21
• Foreshadowing the Broader Stakes – 35:21–37:38

---

Overall Tone & Takeaway

The episode balances historical narrative, sociopolitical analysis, and dark humor. It reveals how deeply entrenched grievances and identity politics manifest at both local and national levels, previewing the far-reaching implications for American democracy.
Listeners are left to ponder: What happens when, in a democracy, neighbors feel like they can no longer coexist? Can fractured communities be reconciled? And whose voices get to define what it means to belong?

---

Up Next

The podcast teases the continuation of this story, where the battle lines between boroughs, political allegiances, and the very idea of “unity” in America will play out in increasingly dramatic and relevant ways.

---

End of summary.

Transcript

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm Elizabeth Day, creator and host of how to Fail, where we hear from

[Unidentified Guest or Co-host]

people like this for Schitt's Creek, for example. If I had a partner going into that experience, I certainly would not have had that partner coming out of that experience.

It's a talent to be a mom, you know, it's a skill.

And even we actually seen Miranda fail at a lot of things. That was the best thing that could have happened to her.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's how to fail. Find it wherever you're listening to this Ben Nadiffer here.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Before we get into this episode, I wanted to let you know that you can hear all episodes of Revisionist the Staten Island Problem ad free right now by signing up for Pushkin plus, you'll also get bonus episodes, full audiobooks and other binges from your favorite Pushkin hosts and authors. Plus, your support helps independent shows like us continue making the stories you love. Sign up and save on the Revisionist History show page, on Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin FM plus, use the code RH25 for 25% off an annual subscription. Alright, let's get into the series.

[Ben Nadifafry (Narration)]

A while back, my colleague Benadaf Haffrey came to me with a story about a strange little island that no outsider ever visits. Forgotten, overlooked, reached by boat across an expanse of turbulent water where the locals practice their own unique customs, engage in their own strange variety of politics, and where, incredibly, everything that is happening currently in America already happened long ago. Staten Island. And so today we bring you a new series, the Staten Island Problem. In it, Ben is going to take us back in time to the 1990s, when a young real estate scion named Donald Trump was chasing models in downtown nightclubs, when his subways were covered in graffiti, and when the homicide epidemic was at its peak and Staten island decided, enough already. Ben will share what he's discovered deep in the distant corners of New York's archives and tell the story of a civil war within the five boroughs, a secessionist movement, the rise of Rudy Giuliani, the Wu Tang Clan, and ultimately a parable for what we're all living through right now, how a country that thought it was united comes apart. What was it Ernest Hemingway once said of bankruptcy? It happens two ways. Gradually and then suddenly. I promise you that at every turn in this bizarre story, you will say to yourself, I I didn't know that. And then, oh, that's how we got to where we are today. This is the first of what will be five episodes. You can expect new ones in your feed every week or you can subscribe to pushkid and binge the whole series right now. Over to Ben.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Let me say up top that I am not from Staten island, though many people I spoke to for this series seem to think I am. I'm from Boston. But when I was a kid, I used to dream about moving to New York. I used to watch Fantasia 2000 all the time. Well, actually, just this one sequence about New York City set to George Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue. It opens as the clarinet plays that iconic doo doo doo doo doo and a pencil draws in the skyline of New York City. The whole thing is just romantic and idealized and hyperkinetic. I fell in love with the idea of this place. I used to draw that skyline. I used to ride my bike around with a tape player, bungee'd to the rack listening to Gershwin, thinking about my first apartment, where I'd live, what I'd do. Who cares that the cartoon was set in the Great Depression? I was a total doofus. But in all my reveries, I never thought about the most remote part of New York City. Staten Island. New York is made up of five boroughs, each of which is like its own little Queens, the Bronx, Manhattan, Brooklyn, where I live now. And then the farthest away and smallest, at least by population, Staten Island. And as I've come to learn, Staten island is a kind of uncomfortable fact of New York City. It's the butt of the joke always. I mean, listen to this recent mayoral debate. I'll start with you, Ms. Adams. Which borough have you spent the least amount of time in? Staten Island. Mm, I would say Staten Island, Mr. Lander. Staten Island, Mr. Mamdani?

[Guy Molinari]

Uh oh, the beacon of free transit.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Staten Island, Mr. Myrie. I'd say Staten Island, Mr. Stringer.

[David Dinkins]

I've been doing this. I've been everywhere, Mr. Tilson.

[Marsha Smith]

It was almost as sweet.

[Ben Nadifafry]

I learned about Staten island after I first moved to New York City. That summer, some friends invited me to a Staten Island Yankees game, their old minor league baseball team. When I looked up how to get there, I learned that I would have to take a subway to a ferry, a literal ship. I got on board. There was a bar, huge windows, a 25, 30 minute ride where you see the Statue of Liberty out the right side and then you just keep going. The New York City skyline recedes into the distance and then you land in a place that just is not New York City. New York City is all shoebox apartments. Staten island is single family homes. New York City is liberal. Staten island is conservative. New York City at large is mostly people of color. Staten island is mostly white. New York City is defined by its subway. Staten island has a single dinky railway, and everyone drives a car anyways. New York are words that convey prestige and power the world over. The center of finance, the center of media, the largest city in the country, the kind of place George Gershwin rhapsodizes. Meanwhile, a member of the College of Staten island board of trustees told me he once suggested they dropped Staten island from the name of the college because it made people take it less seriously. Once, Staten island was supposed to get the world's largest Ferris wheel. It did not. It was supposed to get connected to New York's subway once they broke ground on a tunnel, and that was the end of it. For all these reasons and more, Staten island calls itself the forgotten borough. The least beloved, the most ignored. It was once the place where New York City put most of its trash. Literally the largest landfill on the planet. But starting in the late 1980s, Staten island had decided it didn't want to be dumped on anymore. It didn't want to be forgotten anymore. So it began a movement to secede from New York City, leave, do its own thing, become an entirely different place. Something that, if it happened, threatened to destroy New York. So why am I telling you this? Because it all seems so familiar to me. Every political arrangement includes some disgruntled minority, someone or some place that feels left out, forgotten, like they don't matter. I think that problem is at the very heart of what's going on in our country today. So I began to investigate the Staten island problem. You're listening to revisionist history. I'm Ben Ndef Afafry, and this is our series about an overlooked and misunderstood movement in the 1990s to break up the largest and greatest city in the country. This summer, the United States is celebrating the anniversary of its founding by an act of secession. A quibble over taxes and representation that defied an empire and created a country which has altered the course of human history. All of which is to say, I think it's the right time to ask, what do you do when that democracy looks like it's about to fall apart? This is the Staten Island Problem. Episode one, the Mayor versus the Borough President. To start, I've got to take you back in time to the New York City of long ago.

[Ben Nadifafry (Narration)]

When I moved here for the Washington Post, I got hardship pay.

[Unidentified Guest or Co-host]

Really?

[Ben Nadifafry (Narration)]

Yeah. Like it was a.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Compared to Washington, D.C. yes.

[Ben Nadifafry (Narration)]

I got a special cost of living allowance, which was essentially like, take a cab Compensation for the fact I was going to a hellhole.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Local reporter Malcolm Gladwell was on the scene. In that era.

[Ben Nadifafry (Narration)]

I was at the Washington Post and I'd been there since 86 or 87. And the new York bureau had an opening. The bureau chief was leaving and I applied. And as it turns out, I was the only person who applied.

[Ben Nadifafry]

How many people worked at the Washington Post?

[Ben Nadifafry (Narration)]

Like probably a thousand reporters. Nobody wanted the job.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Any person who wanted to be the best bureau chief of New York City,

[Ben Nadifafry (Narration)]

nobody but me wanted the job. It was the sweetest setup in the world. You had like, you know, a credit card. You could put anything you wanted on it. You had like an assistant. You had a lovely office in the Newsweek building. I don't know why, but I was

[Ben Nadifafry]

like, I want that job.

[Ben Nadifafry (Narration)]

Such a good job, so much fun. But no, the perception was, why would anyone want to go to New York? New York was a place that you, that you left. You didn't, you didn't voluntarily, voluntarily go there.

[Ben Nadifafry]

This was the version of New York that a man named David Dinkins was going to run as mayor.

[Marsha Smith]

He was by temperament a conciliator, a pleaser. A guy who wanted to make peace among different constituencies and kind of represented in his body and his posture and his affect kind of. He really did appeal to people's better angels. He really was that.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Marsha Smith was a high ranking official in the Dinkins administration. She'd first started working with him back when he was campaigning for Manhattan Borough president. The borough president is like the mayor of each borough.

[Marsha Smith]

As it happened, the whole policy unit in the borough president's office was all women. He used to call us cupcakes.

[Ben Nadifafry]

She'd watched his rise to become the first black mayor of the city in

[Marsha Smith]

1989, the election of David Dinkins. Remember, this was on the heels of black mayors being elected in other major cities. But this was like New York was like last. But it was a very optimistic moment. This was a big moment. I felt it as very hopeful. I could also feel, of course, the skepticism that felt like there was a

[Ben Nadifafry]

lot at stake, a lot of eyes on you guys, a lot of eyes. But contrary to most people who become mayor, Dinkins hadn't really wanted the job.

[Unnamed Commentator or Historian]

And he shied away from the idea of running for mayor. And he was convinced to run for mayor.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Ruth messenger became Manhattan Borough president after Dinkins. Around the same time, the city became majority minority. More people of color than white people. Those demographics were why people thought Dinkins should run.

[Unnamed Commentator or Historian]

But here's a Black borough president with some knowledge of state government and city government, for sure. Perfect candidate for mayor. And I promise you that he was pushed to make that decision.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Dinkins was a lifelong New Yorker. He grew up shuttling between his mom's place in the city and his dad's in New Jersey. His parents had split when he was young. His father was a barber, his mom was a maid. When he grew up, he went to college at Howard University and met his wife. Her father was Harlem political royalty, and that set the course of Dinkins life. Dinkins died in 2020. So I spent a lot of talking to people about him, and everybody had a Dinkins story, most of them about how fastidious he was. He would shower multiple times a day. He was often in tennis whites. A lawyer named Richard Emery remembered going to his office to ask him questions for an affidavit in a case. Once they were in the bowels of the municipal building, and all of a

[Richard Emery]

sudden, David Dinkins gets up from behind the desk and he takes his pants off. I think his jacket was still on. And he had garters and boxer trousers. And I wanted to ask him, what are you doing? And he puts them up like this, holds them with one hand and takes a steamer and starts to steam the pants so that the crease is really nice. And he stands there and he's answering my questions and he's steaming his pants.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Dinkins didn't like a crease. Out of order. I have to imagine that's part of why being the mayor of Chaos City was not necessarily his dream job. When Dinkins was elected, his dad told the press, I wouldn't want the job for a billion dollars. But Dinkins knew this was his chance to make history, and he did.

[David Dinkins]

I stand here before you today as the elected leader of the greatest city of a great nation to which my ancestors were brought chained and whipped in the hold of a slave ship.

[Ben Nadifafry]

In January of 1990, David Dinkins took the oath of office on the steps of City Hall.

[David Dinkins]

And this year, this city has given powerful proof of the proposition that all of us are created equal.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Dinkins had a vision of what the city could be.

[David Dinkins]

I see New York as a gorgeous mosaic of race and religious faith of national origin and sexual orientation of individuals whose families arrived yesterday and generations ago coming through Ellis island or Kennedy Airport or on buses bound for the Port Authority. In that spirit, I offer this fundamental pledge. I intend to be the mayor of all the people of New York. From City island to Staten Island, New

[Ben Nadifafry]

York City has always been Deeply segregated into ethnic enclaves. The Dominicans of Washington Heights, black people in central Harlem, Italians and Jews in Canarsie. The mosaic was Dinkins way of reconciling those facts. It was his way of saying that diversity is not a problem, it's an asset. But if you cleared away the buildings he faced as he spoke, he would have been looking straight at the piece of the mosaic that had recently decided it no longer fit. Staten Island. After Dinkins was elected, Staten island had pushed forward its bill to secede from New York City. It had been in the works for years at that point, but it's hard to imagine Dinkins didn't take it personally. His colleague Marcia Smith thought that for Staten island, this was all about Dinkins.

[Marsha Smith]

Oh, my God, what are they thinking? And, well, of course, they're thinking that because they don't want to be governed by a black mayor.

[Ben Nadifafry]

So it immediately seemed racially tinged to you.

[Marsha Smith]

Absolutely.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Dinkins knew Staten island was threatening the secede the. But he didn't know how seriously to take it. Then one day, his finance commissioner began looking into the matter and determined this was a bigger deal than anyone realized. The administration looked into it. If Staten island seceded, New York could be in a financial crisis. The city would lose almost 20% of its land, including, crucially, its last operational dump. With a smaller population, it would get way less in federal and state aid. It would lose possibly the thousands of government workers who lived on Staten island, including thousands of police officers in the middle of a crime wave. And it could leave the first black mayor with the legacy of presiding over the city's destruction. Could Dinkins keep the biggest, most fractious city in the country from breaking apart? He had to scare Staten island out of doing it. So the city launched a task force, and Dinkins decided that he personally would set sail for the island to argue the case himself. We'll be right back.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm Elizabeth Day, creator and host of how to Fail, where we hear from people like this.

[Unidentified Guest or Co-host]

For Schitt's Creek, for example, if I had a partner going into that experience, I certainly would not have had that partner coming out of that experience.

It's a talent to be a mom. You know, it's a skill.

And even we actually seen Miranda fail at a lot of things. That was the best thing that could have happened to her.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's how to fail. Find it wherever you're listening to this.

[Ben Nadifafry]

One night, a few weeks before David Dinkins went to Staten Island, a police officer named Michael o' Keefe was patrolling The Manhattan neighborhood of Washington Heights. In an unmarked car, he saw a young man tugging a jacket around his waist. It was July, not jacket weather. He thought he was probably hiding a weapon. O' Keefe pulled over. The kid was a suspected drug dealer named Kiko Garcia. O' Keefe got out and tried to arrest him. Garcia resisted. What happened next was fast and unclear, but it was a warm evening and there were witnesses on the street. They said they saw the cop beat Garcia with a walkie talkie, take out his knees and shove him into the lobby of an apartment building. They said they heard him screaming, mama, Mama, they are killing me in Spanish. Then two shots. When more police arrived, they found o' Keefe standing over Garcia, dead. A bullet in the stomach, one in the back. That night, the riots began.

[Guy Molinari]

M80s bottles and bricks are being thrown.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Several cars have been set on fire.

[Guy Molinari]

Some of their occupants have been thrown from the cars.

[Ben Nadifafry]

The building across from the shooting burned. There was fire everywhere. A police helicopter hovered overhead. Someone shot at it. In the lobby of the apartment building where Garcia was killed, someone used his blood to write quico, we love you on the wall. One man threw a bottle at some cops, then ran away across the rooftops. When they chased him, he fell five stories to his death. Protesters burned pictures of the police. Police officers watching their image burn, didn't want to talk on camera, but told me later they thought it was disgusting and were frustrated by orders not to interfere with the demonstration. People listening in on police radio said they heard cops joking that if they saw Al Sharpton protesting, they should shoot him. Phil Caruso, head of the police union, took to the news.

[Phil Caruso]

Of course, we don't approve of it. We don't condone it, but it's something that is sort of a reaction on the part of police officers under a lot of stress. I think what we should do is start focusing on the so called victim in this case who was a known drug dealer who was wanted under a warrant because he violated his parole.

[Ben Nadifafry]

So, yes, the cops were annoyed with the protesters, but they seemed even more annoyed with the mayor.

[David Dinkins]

I came to pay my respects and offer my condolences to the family and to assure them that everything that can be done will be done. Thoroughly investigate the circumstances of this death.

[Ben Nadifafry]

From the start, Dinkins seemed suspicious about what had happened. He met with Garcia's family and consoled them. He invited them to Gracie Mansion. He paid for Garcia's body to be shipped back to the Dominican Republic for a funeral. He walked the streets of Washington Heights and met with People, he told them, I promise you justice. I beg you for peace.

[David Dinkins]

I used to live up here. I love to come to this neighborhood.

[Ben Nadifafry]

The cops felt Dinkins had sold them out, that he'd sided with the family of a drug dealer and someone important

[Unidentified Guest or Co-host]

agreed and my God, if you're going

[Guy Molinari]

to pay for that funeral. There's thousands and thousands of funerals not paid for in our city today. That would be more justification for them than that one.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Borough president of Staten Island, Guy Molinari.

[Guy Molinari]

The mayor is not vested with the responsibility of giving religious comfort to the family of somebody killed who's a drug dealer, I think. But that was very badly played.

[Ben Nadifafry]

And I think Molinari had got his start as a real estate lawyer on Staten Island. Then he got into politics and realized he was really good at it. He used to just open up the phone book and call random people on Staten island to talk. He was beloved, polarizing and extremely old school. This is him talking to a WNYC reporter defending himself. The time he said a lesbian shouldn't be Attorney General of New York.

[Guy Molinari]

Not one editorial ever took her to task for her going out and asking for votes because she was a lesbian. Not a single one.

[Susan Molinari]

Do you think there's a difference between that and say you are having a fundraiser with group of Italian Americans?

[David Dinkins]

Sure.

[Ben Nadifafry]

People feeling ethnic?

[Guy Molinari]

Sure. What's the Italian American agenda? She had it. She had a gay and lesbian agenda.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Molinari's philosophy was that the only rules in politics are what the voters think. And his borough was full of people who did not think much of New York City. Staten island was essentially the last outpost for people who would like to leave the city but couldn't because they worked for the city and therefore had to live within its boundaries. There were a lot of police officers on the island to the point where when I bought a used copy of Molinari's memoir on ebay, it showed up with the inscription blue lives always matter. To put it mildly. This was not Mayor Dinkins crowd in the weeks after Garcia was killed. It was Molinari who took a stand against Dinkins and how he handled everything. He wrote the police precinct in Washington Heights that I know that your morale has taken quite a beating in recent weeks and the actions of Mayor Dinkins have undoubtedly contributed to your present feelings. However, I did want you to know that there are some of us in government who hold you in the highest esteem. Dinkins learned about the letter just before his trip to Staten Island. He was furious, Molinari said, that Dinkins leaked it to the press.

[Guy Molinari]

And my Letter never would have been made public except that he chose to make it public. So if you made it public, then how can you make the accusation that I'm trying to stir things up and make it listen in our city? I'm not. I didn't want to be standing before all of you talking about this issue. It was just a private letter I sent to the men and women of the precinct who, who needed a lift from somebody in government. Nobody else was doing it.

[Ben Nadifafry]

But at that point, Dinkins couldn't call the trip off. So one hot summer morning, David Dinkins finally got on a ship and set sail for Staten Island. We'll be right back.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm Elizabeth Day, creator and host of how to Fail where we hear from

[Unidentified Guest or Co-host]

people like this for Schitt's Creek for example. If I had a partner going into that experience, I certainly would not have had that partner coming out of that experience.

It's a talent to be a mom, you know, it's a skill.

And even we actually seen Miranda fail at a lot of things. That was the best thing that could have happened to her.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's how to fail. Find it wherever you're listening to this.

[Ben Nadifafry]

The mayor boarded a ferry in lower Manhattan and charted a course a half hour out to sea until it reached Staten Island. Dinkins got off the boat and made his way to Borough Hall. A small crowd awaited him. And I would like to greet you all this morning to mark Mayor Dinkins week long visit here on Staten Island. A camera crew followed Dinkins on his week out on the island. The tapes are in the city archive and they are kind of amazing. You see Dinkins in a baby blue suit on the steps of Staten Island Borough Hall. Then a short man with big glasses and white hair steps in front of him, Staten Island's borough president, Guy Molinari,

[Guy Molinari]

Mayor Dinkins, distinguished guests and fellow Staten Islanders, good morning. Today I'd like to speak to you all about the borough I have represented in elective office for 17 years. Whatever the problems have been the last few days, I'm going to forget them and hope they didn't exist. And I think the mayor and I, whatever our differences are, we've differed before. Just as I have with the mayor before him and the mayor before him. But yeah, well, when you represent Staten island it goes with the terrifying thing to a certain extent. But we'll try to put those differences aside at least I will. And I'll speak only for myself.

[Ben Nadifafry]

It was a hot day. The mayor stood in full sun behind the borough president looking deeply Displeased as he wiped sweat from his brow. Then Molinari's daughter Susan, congresswoman for Staten island, took the mic

[Susan Molinari]

while. I know, excuse me. It's customary during most trips when you have special guests coming to either the city or the island. I'm sure you've done it. You give them a special key to the city. Well, today it's my great pleasure to, in Staten Island's own way, to present you with an unofficial lock to the garbage dump.

[Ben Nadifafry]

She and her dad held up a gigantic sign that said Molinarie landfill lock. Dinkins did not look happy. Minutes in, it was clear that this would be a very trying week for David Dinkins. He took the lectern.

[Guy Molinari]

Let me.

[David Dinkins]

Let me just say a word about Guy Molinari. He knew. He knew I was going to be here today, just like I knew that he would be here to greet me about. There was no doubt about that.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Both Dinkins and Molinari were ex marines. But only Molinari had seen combat. What Dinkins got from the Marines was a love of rules and decorum. He was proper and patrician. What Molinari got from the Marines was a killer instinct. He was a street fighter. The very public feud between the two of them was making it hard for Dinkins to focus on the task at hand. The letter kept coming up.

[David Dinkins]

I hope that that's the last time I will address this subject for now, because what I want to do is get about the business of government here on Staten Island.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Dinkins tries to reset to his real purpose, stop secession.

[David Dinkins]

I was asked, well, what do you hope to accomplish here on Staten Island? I said, if nothing else. If nothing else, I hope that I can convey to the people of Staten island that I deeply care about them and about all of them. If this were a political visit, why in blazes would I come? I mean, I know the number of votes that were cast for me in 1989. So I'm not here for political reason. If I were to come for a political reason, might I not then reason, I'll come to Staten island for two days because you have less than 500,000 people and they got two and a half million people in Brooklyn. Why not go to Brooklyn for eight or nine days and come here for two days? But I'm here for seven days at

[Ben Nadifafry]

this one imagines his knees buckle. Seven days.

[David Dinkins]

Not just Monday to Friday,

[Guy Molinari]

not simply

[David Dinkins]

Monday to Friday, Monday through Sunday. So I don't care whether you agree with me on all issues or not. If you are reasonable people, you have to say to yourselves, well, By God, he does care.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Seeming more than a little pissed off, he began his pitch for the City of the Mosaic.

[David Dinkins]

But you know, the glory of Staten island does not in any way confine itself to the past. In fact, the island of the Seven Hills may well have been the first part of New York that European explorers cited.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Dinkins has clearly had his speechwriters dig deep for some nice things to say about Staten Island.

[David Dinkins]

The Staten island ferry, the oldest surviving free black settlement in the United States. The only zoo in America, incidentally, to exhibit all 32 species of rattlesnakes.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Pouring sweat from his brow, David Dinkins limped to his finish. A line about how Staten island maybe was the first place his favorite sport, tennis, was played in America.

[David Dinkins]

So thank you, Staten Island. You have given me that.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Finally, he addresses the elephant in the room.

[David Dinkins]

And I hope that, that I will be able to persuade the people of Staten island that this government, and I am the representative of this government, that this government does care about Staten Island. I'll be speaking to this question of secession. But just, just so to give you some advance notice, y' all ain't going nowhere.

[Ben Nadifafry]

He was right and he was wrong all at the same time.

[David Dinkins]

God bless you. Keep the faith.

[Ben Nadifafry]

And with that, the mayor's seven day visit to the forgotten borough began. Borough president Guy Molinari had Mayor Dinkins trapped on Staten island for an entire week. He could control the narrative about many things in that time. The dump with that lock gambit, but even more urgently, the increasingly tense relationship between Dinkins and the cops after Washington Heights. Here's a reporter asking Molinari about all that.

[David Dinkins]

You think he shouldn't have paid for the funeral?

[Guy Molinari]

No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I mean, that I think is. I totally disagree with that. I think as the weeks go by and the days go by, you'll see the reaction of the police community and I think you'll find out that I was right.

[Ben Nadifafry]

In case you're wondering why the borough president of Staten island was even talking about Washington Heights, according to Molinari, a

[Guy Molinari]

lot of the drugs that are sold in Washington Heights wind up in this borough.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Dinkins toured the island all week. He kept trying to reach higher, only to be dragged down by reality. He gave speeches invoking the Civil War. He quoted Lincoln comparing Staten island to the south seceding. He made his secession undermined the very principle of democracy. We're supposed to be able to argue about things and come to a compromise. You can't just leave when you don't like something. With Staten Islanders, we're having none of it. My question is why you allow one deputy mayor to direct you down a path of destruction.

[Elizabeth Day]

Destruction?

[David Dinkins]

Who's that? Deputy mayor?

[Ben Nadifafry]

Here he is at the local newspaper's editorial luncheon, staring down at his plate, trying to eat. I have to say, he looks totally miserable. The path of destruction this woman's asking him about is a reference to the dump and how his administration had no real plans to close it.

[David Dinkins]

You can continue in a minute, but let's just interrupt the flow. Just to sit here and listen to you give some conclusions that are really not accurate. It's a little painful. I'm here because I care and I represent all of the people. We have a very difficult and knotty problem with respect to the disposal of solid waste, and experts do not all agree about it.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Dinkins was in an unwinnable situation, being accosted while he ate his lunch, standing in the sun all around the island, being blasted with unpleasant questions as he sweat like crazy.

[David Dinkins]

The main thing is getting out of the sun. Boy, I cannot understand. You know, there's space inside where this could have been right in the. You know, in the corridor.

[Ben Nadifafry]

His week there was building to a climax when Dinkins would finally visit the infamous dump Fresh Kills, the largest landfill in the world, which, yes, smelled terrible, but also seemed possibly to be highly toxic. This was the kind of place the fastidious David Dinkins really did not want to be. So when he took his tour by car and then gave a press conference, it did not go over well.

[Guy Molinari]

You looked like you were going to get out and take a walk around some of the landfill area before I looked like it.

[David Dinkins]

What was that body language? How did you determine it?

[Guy Molinari]

It was our understanding when the motorcade

[David Dinkins]

stopped, get out, take a walking tour.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Molinari roasted Dinkins about it all in the press. Quote, After 40 years of Staten Islanders living near an ever increasingly large dump, David Dinkins spends 40 minutes reviewing his own data and declares it safe. The message was clear. Too clean to walk around trash island, huh?

[Guy Molinari]

Mr. Mayor, I was wondering what it was that made you change your mind.

[David Dinkins]

What I'm doing is taking me to be briefed by commissioners Lloyd and Jarling, which we have been able to do. And throughout the ride, I was getting briefed. As we were riding.

[Ben Nadifafry]

The week soon ended, and Dinkins went back to Manhattan, seeming to have made matters worse. And what would soon become clear is that Molinari had much bigger plans. Not for Staten island to leave the city, but for Staten island to take it over entirely. When I started reporting this series, a Historian told me America happens first in New York City. And now that I spent way too long learning about a borough that did its best to leave that city, I have to say I agree. This is a story about what happens when neighbors feel like they have nothing in common anymore, when they had these irreconcilable differences and they just don't think they can be part of the same place anymore. Back in the 1990s, a chess game was being played for, yes, the fate of the largest city in America. But I think the stakes of it are much higher because the more I looked into the story of Staten island secession and where that split came from, the more I understood how we got to where we are today. Coming up on the Staten island problem,

[Guy Molinari]

who will you trust? Your friends and neighbors and the people in Staten Island? Who you trust? The people five miles overseas.

[Richard Emery]

There's a lot of Donald Trump in

[Ben Nadifafry]

the Guy Molina style of politics.

[Richard Emery]

They're very dominating and they're intolerant of

[Ben Nadifafry]

people who disagree with them.

[Richard Emery]

Absolutely intolerant.

[David Dinkins]

For Rudy Giuliani to urge them on, as it were, demonstrates an irresponsibility on his behalf.

[Ben Nadifafry]

Can't you just deal with the secession thing when you're at these debates? You gotta turn a wedding into a secession debate. Did you think of it when you. When January 6th happened?

[Marsha Smith]

Absolutely. There was much chatter among the Dinkins alumni about the parallel.

[Ben Nadifafry]

We've seen. We've seen this before.

[Marsha Smith]

Yeah.

[Ben Nadifafry]

The Staten Island Problem is written and reported by me, Ben Nadifafry. It was produced by Lucy Sullivan with Nina Bird Lawrence. Our editor is Karen Shakurji. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Fact checking by Sam Russick. Sound design and mastering by Jake Gorski. Original music by Stellwagen Symphonette, Luis Guerra and Jake Gorski. Special thanks to Todd Reynolds for his track the Solution from the album Outer Borough. And to the College of Staten island and the New York City Municipal Archives for all of the amazing tape. And thanks, of course, to Malcolm Gladwell. I'm Ben Nadifafry.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm Elizabeth Day, creator and host of how to Fail, where we hear from people like this for Schitt's Creek, for

[Unidentified Guest or Co-host]

example, if I had a partner going into that experience, I certainly would not have had that partner coming out of that experience.

It's a talent to be a mom, you know, it's a skill.

And even we've actually seen Miranda fail at a lot of things. That was the best thing that could have happened to her.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's how to fail. Find it wherever you're listening to this.