Heather Wilson (2:52)

last five quarters oh and i want

Malcolm Gladwell (2:55)

founders who are marathon runners that's discipline

Dave Goldfein (2:58)

yeah let's see what that looks like

Public Ad Narrator (3:01)

with generated assets on public you can turn any idea into an investable index just enter a prompt and watch the ai screen thousands of stocks in seconds you can then back test your index against the s and p five hundred make adjustments refine your criteria and when you're ready invest in what you've built go to public dot com and build your own index with generated assets plus earn a one percent uncapped match when you transfer your portfolio public investing for those who take it seriously ad paid for by public holdings brokerage services by public investing member finra sipc advisory services by public advisors sec registered advisor sample prompts are for illustrative purposes only not investment advice all investing involves risk of loss see complete disclosures at public dot com disclosures exposures

Malcolm Gladwell (3:48)

pushkin many years ago i was on the board of a think tank called the rand corporation out in los angeles it was one of the coolest things i've ever done rand does all kinds of work on healthcare and energy in the environment and most of all they consult with the air force which meant from time to time various air force dignitaries would come and brief us and there were two i've never forgotten the first was a four star general named david goldfein from twenty sixteen to twenty twenty he was chief of staff the highest military post in the air force here's a dave goldfein story that sums him up i was once in an elevator with him at some conference and we were all locked in conversation with the conference host and there was a man in the corner of the elevator who clearly worked for the hotel older guy in a maintenance uniform who i'm ashamed to say we all treated like he was invisible except for general goldfein who stopped the conversation reached over shook the man's hand hi i'm dave goldfein how was your day in my experience most powerful people do not notice the anonymous maintenance guy in the corner second memorable person who came to rand when i was there the secretary of the air force heather wilson the political appointee who runs the service along with the chief of staff i met heather wilson almost ten years ago now and my friends will back me up on this i have not stopped talking about her in my perfect universe heather wilson would run for president i don't care which party it doesn't matter and if she did not only would she win easily but she would restore everything about that office that has been damaged over the past generation when we decided to look at some consequential mistakes people have made for this miniseries i remembered something that happened back when wilson and goldfein were running the air force a tragedy that unfolded in texas and a story about the mistake at the center of it or when more accurately a story about how to respond to a mistake and i wanted to share it with you my name is malcolm gladwell you're listening to revisionist history my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood this is my conversation with doctor heather wilson and general dave goldfein before we go on am i remembering correctly you were in the same air force academy class

Heather Wilson (6:29)

yeah we started at the air force academy on the same day in the class of nineteen eighty two and we didn't know each other really well as cadets and our careers crossed paths several times after graduating from the academy but we came back together at the end of our federal careers as service secretary in chief so in some ways our values were formed at the same institution at the same time yeah now i

Dave Goldfein (6:56)

will add that one of us graduated in four years became a rhodes scholar congresswoman started her own company became university president and secretary and one of us didn't

Heather Wilson (7:12)

one of us did something useful

Malcolm Gladwell (7:13)

dave how far down in the graduating class were you dave i've forgotten well

Dave Goldfein (7:19)

i will tell you that i was part of the group that made the top half possible

Heather Wilson (7:25)

but you said something

Malcolm Gladwell (7:26)

just then i keep calling you dave i should call you general golfing no please call me dave okay so i just want to why don't you guys just i don't know which one of you wants to start tell me how this all when this when this began how it began how you found out about it go from there it was

Heather Wilson (7:43)

one of the worst days it's still probably the worst day in my professional life so it was a sunday november twenty seventeen i was in the upstairs of my my row house in virginia i got a call from the the inspector general and he said i don't know if you're watching tv but there's been something terrible that's happened in sutherland

Dave Goldfein (8:06)

springs texas overnight the quiet town of

Public Ad Narrator (8:09)

sutherland springs texas trying to come to grips with the nation's latest horrific mass shooting more than two dozen people were

Dave Goldfein (8:17)

killed during sunday services at the small

Heather Wilson (8:19)

baptist church the victims ranging in age

Dave Goldfein (8:22)

from five to seventy two years old

Heather Wilson (8:25)

we also learned a short time ago

Malcolm Gladwell (8:27)

that between twelve and fourteen of the

Public Ad Narrator (8:29)

dead are children and i of course

Heather Wilson (8:33)

immediately went on and found out what was going on someone walked into a church in sutherland springs texas and opened fire and killed it was twenty six people in the end it was just

Malcolm Gladwell (8:48)

awful we are told now that the

Dave Goldfein (8:51)

parents of the shooter's ex wife worshiped

Malcolm Gladwell (8:54)

here they were not at church yesterday

Heather Wilson (8:57)

the inspector general general sam said we're not sure but we think he was an airman and even more than that he may have been dishonorably discharged for a violent offense while on active duty and we might have failed to inform the fbi which would have if there was a way to put somebody on a list so they can't buy a

Public Ad Narrator (9:23)

weapon

Heather Wilson (9:26)

and so dave and i talked that sunday afternoon we agreed we would meet at nine o' clock in the morning in our conference room and find out the facts and then take it from there but it was awful it

Dave Goldfein (9:40)

was just awful yeah so you know as as it all came together most important thing for us was to sort of get as many facts as we could that we when we gathered the people on monday to get everybody together

Heather Wilson (9:56)

and it was so when we got together at nine o' clock in the morning the inspector general general said confirmed that yes he was an airman yes he had been convicted of a violent offense while on active duty and that the service had failed to inform the f and put him on the list so he couldn't buy a weapon and then you think it you know you think at that point it can't get worse but it did yeah because the next thing we found out in that meeting was that the defense department inspector general had done a review three years earlier of whether all of the services were appropriately notifying the the fbi and putting people on the you know can't buy a weapon list and said there were problems so we had been told that the system didn't work there was an audit finding and we didn't fix it so it was not a good

Malcolm Gladwell (10:59)

day so you have we have a case of somebody who is dishonorably discharged for a violent offense and what's the internal mechanism in which the way that case is dealt with within the air

Heather Wilson (11:14)

force when systems screw up when things fail it's usually not because of somebody intended to make a mistake it's because the person who did that job moved on or nobody wrote down the procedures or people weren't adequately trained and the way it was supposed to work in the service is that a felony offenses unlike minority minor offenses felony offenses are handled by the office of special investigations and a military prosecutor once there is a conviction it should have been reported on a system by that office of special investigations to the fbi and then it is closed out and you know put on file that didn't happen and so it was a combination of systems and processes and training and and it wasn't done right and we were told that in advance when the dod inspector general did an audit of all of the services and in fact the air force had been doing it doing better on it than the other services but that didn't matter we still knew we had a problem and we'd failed to

Dave Goldfein (12:27)

fix it

Malcolm Gladwell (12:33)

we'll be right back with more of my conversation with general goldfein and doctor wilson this message is a paid partnership with apple card there's something interesting about how seamlessly certain tools fit into daily life apple card is one of those things it can be applied for right in the wallet app on iphone and approval can happen in minutes so it's ready to use immediately with apple pay i'm so glad the days of finding my wallet fishing out the credit card using it putting it back in my wallet or oops maybe i use cash where's the atm enough the first time i used apple pay on my phone with my apple card i was like this is the future there's no going back with apple card purchases earn daily cash up to three percent with no points to track and no waiting for rewards it's simply daily cash back that i earn on every purchase there's even an option to open a high yield savings account through apple card and while i haven't done it yet if i do my daily cash can grow automatically over time without any extra effort because apple card lives in the wallet app it's always accessible on iphone and can be used with apple pay at over eighty five percent of merchants in the us and the security of face id and touch id prevents unauthorized purchases whether using iphone or apple watch to explore it yourself you can apply for apple card in the wallet app on your iphone subject to credit approval savings is available to apple card owners subject to eligibility savings in apple card by goldman sachs bank usa salt lake city branch member fdic terms and more at applecard dot com imagine never buying gas again ev's electric vehicles are as easy to charge as your phone and perfect for everyday life drive daily with confidence everywhere you go most americans drive forty miles a day but most ev's are equipped with two hundred to four hundred miles of range they've got fewer parts fewer repairs and fewer headaches with hundreds of new and used ev models available today there's an ev to fit every lifestyle and every budget ghost the gas station and save up to two thousand dollars a year not buying gas ev's are perfect for real life with a daily range that allows you to drive with confidence wherever you want to go and charging is easy plug in overnight at home just like your phone or use a fast charger and get back on the road in as little as twenty minutes learn more at electricforall

Public Ad Narrator (15:22)

dot org support for the show comes from public lately the line between investing and gambling has started to blur but let's be real you can't build actual wealth on a coin flip that's why public takes a different approach it's the investing platform where you can build a serious long term portfolio stocks options bonds crypto they have it all but unlike platforms that basically just give you a buy button public provides actual context so when you see volatility in your portfolio you aren't just staring at a chart you're reading a helpful explanation about why the stock is up or down you can even go deeper with the built in ai research assistant it's all about giving you the information you need to invest with conviction be right when more often go to public dot com and earn an uncapped one percent match when you transfer your investments public investing for those who take it seriously ad paid for by public holdings brokerage services by public investing member finra sipc advisory services by public advisors sec registered advisor all investing involves risk of loss see complete disclosures at public dot com disclosures after

Malcolm Gladwell (16:29)

you get that call doctor wilson who do you call who's your first call

Heather Wilson (16:35)

is it dave my first call usually was to dave now we also talked to the general counsel and so forth it was actually out of town as i remember on that day but one of the things and this is one of the things about our relationship as service secretary in chief the chief has an obligation to give his best military advice to the civilians appointed to run the department as a secretary there's nothing that says that you have an obligation to ask for it but i generally did a much better job when i asked for it because dave goldfein may be a much better secretary you said

Malcolm Gladwell (17:12)

you guys were shaped by the same values and this is a really important part and i want you to talk a little before we go on i want you to talk about it what do you mean by that so each

Dave Goldfein (17:22)

service has a set of core values that are infused into every member of the institution normally during basic training and then reinforced throughout their time in service and so you could go to each service and find those core values for us it's integrity service and excellence and so you know integrity first is how we're taught to approach all things so you know in terms of how we approach this it started off with ownership because we needed to ensure that we were true to the values of the institution and that we were representing the institution correctly as its leaders and so integrity first service before self meaning that we you know we look at this opportunity to lead as a gift that's offered by those we're privileged to serve and each day we ask the question are we worthy of that trust and confidence not only of the airmen that we were privileged to lead but also the american people that entrusted us with their sons and daughters and so those core values drive how we choose to handle things throughout our careers i would

Heather Wilson (18:35)

say on the integrity first part once on that monday morning we knew the truth we knew that he had been an airman we knew that he had been convicted of a violent crime and we knew that we should have reported that to the fbi and we didn't those were facts we knew by monday morning and as i said our general counsel was out of town but there was a more junior lawyer around the table there and everybody was just ma' am it was just a somber meeting but the lawyer when we kind of went around the table and said all right what do you think we should do next on this one it was very often that dave and i came from things from slightly different perspectives you know we'd see different things and i think we made better decisions because steel sharpened steel we'd engage a lot with each other but on this one there was no daylight between us the very beginning we knew the truth and we thought we needed to just say it and so we made a decision at that meeting that we would release a statement by late that morning we gave him a deadline of eleven i think it took us till one it always takes a little longer but to say what we knew and we also thought that that would allow our institution to focus on fixing the problem rather than denying it or delaying things or trying to duck accountability and david and i also did a press conference or press availability with the pentagon media the following morning which was you know that wasn't fun but some ways when we just said these are the facts as we know them and this is what we're doing to fix the problem what could they ask we're going to deny things it was really unpleasant but it was the truth and i think dave and i were both committed to just telling the truth well good afternoon perhaps open up with a couple of remarks the offenses for which the shooter in texas was court martialed should have been reported and that's why we launched a full scale review of this case and all others like it since sunday night the air force inspector general has talked to about one hundred people involved in this case we are looking at all of our databases and if we have problems that we find we'll fix them dave

Malcolm Gladwell (21:04)

can you give us your memory of

Dave Goldfein (21:06)

that press conference yeah so you know it's i think we both expected to get you know really tough questions and we were prepared you know to own up and but it was like heather said right it once we you know opened up with hey we own this you know we we the united states air force goofed this up and we as the leaders represent the institution that goofed this up and so we take ownership and our focus is now on ensure that we understand all the facts and we are going to fix this to ensure that it can never happen again once we started off with that statement you really could have sort of felt the air go out of the room and and then the questions at that point were just more about detail and i don't remember getting any really pointed you know attacks or questions it was more okay well tell us what you know about this and how are you going to handle that and so i think that you know my recollection of it was it accomplished what we were hoping it would accomplish which was taking ownership one of the things that

Heather Wilson (22:21)

somebody around that table on monday morning said was well you know you and the chief weren't the leaders of the air force at the time this prosecution happened and they failed to report and both dave and i had the same reaction was that doesn't matter we represent the institution and dave couldn't take the four stars off of his shoulders any more than i could take the airman symbol off of my lapel when you are the leader you own the institution and you represent the institution and you have to take ownership for the institution and lead it forward and so so the fact that it didn't happen on our watch that's no excuse we're not going to make an excuse we're not going to say it was somebody else's

Malcolm Gladwell (23:10)

problem we'll be right back imagine never buying gas again ev's electric vehicles are as easy to charge as your phone and perfect for everyday life drive daily with confidence everywhere you go most americans drive forty miles a day most ev's are equipped with two hundred to four hundred miles of range they've got fewer parts fewer repairs and fewer headaches with hundreds of new and used ev models available today there's an ev to fit every lifestyle and every budget ghost the gas station and save up to two thousand dollars a year not buying gas ev's are perfect for real life with a daily range that allows you to drive with confidence wherever you want to go and charging is easy plug in overnight at home just like your phone or use a fast charger and get back on the road in as little as twenty minutes learn more at electricforall

Public Ad Narrator (24:19)

dot org support for the show comes from public if you look at your investing app what do you see an interface stuck in nineteen ninety seven or something that looks modern but feels more like a casino than a place to build wealth public is different it's the investing platform for those who take it seriously on public you can build your portfolio for the long haul stocks options bonds crypto it's all there but what really makes public different is the technology behind it imagine starting your day with an ai summarized market briefing getting clear summaries of earnings calls the moment they end or turning any idea into an investable index just by typing a prompt this is what investing looks like when the tools finally catch up go to public dot com and earn a one percent uncapped match when you transfer your portfolio public investing for those who take it seriously ad paid for by public holdings brokerage services by public investing member finra sipc advisory services by public advisors sec registered advisor crypto services by zerohash all investing involves risk of loss see complete disclosures at public dot com disclosures

Malcolm Gladwell (25:27)

sunday is built on a deceptively simple premise a healthier yard starts beneath the surface by analyzing your soil and using climate data sunday creates a custom yard plan powered by nutrient dense ingredients instead of traditional synthetic treatments it's a shift away from guesswork and towards understanding which historically tends to produce better outcomes go to getsunday dot com to get your free custom yard analysis that website again is getsunday dot com what happens next you have this press conference you've told the world we're looking into this we're going to go over every single case make sure we've done the right thing but we still have the aftermath in

Heather Wilson (26:18)

texas this was a bedroom community for randolph air force base and then some of the victims were the family of an airman who was deployed overseas and dave took the lead on that part and i'll let him tell that part

Dave Goldfein (26:36)

we reached out to the community and because there was a series of funerals they were holding and reached out to the mayor of san antonio ron nuremberg at the time and asked if it would be appropriate and it would be acceptable for me to travel to the san antonio and attend the funeral in uniform representing the service knowing that we were you know we were responsible for everything we've been talking about because i wanted to make sure that we weren't contributing to any increased pain by me being there and i offered to also come in civilian tire if that's what they preferred and they said no we we'd appreciate if you would be here in uniform so i met with the mayor first and we talked about all right how do we ensure that this is not just a you know once and done that we have a long term commitment to this community as the community works to recover from this tragedy how do we ensure the air force is continually plugged in for the long term so that was what the agenda working out with the mayor tell me

Malcolm Gladwell (27:46)

more about going to that funeral how did you feel on the flight down

Dave Goldfein (27:53)

well it was i knew that we had an airman that was deployed and and several members of his family this is a young airman several members his families were killed and we were going to be several yes members of his extended family because a member again sutherland springs is a bedroom community for randolph air force base which is one of our largest air force training bases so the number of people that come through randolph that's probably one of the most traveled bases so when you talk to airmen right and ask them of their you know common experiences many of them will share a period of time when they went through randolph air force base or lackland air force base in san antonio so san antonio is known as military city usa is one of the you know the monikers that that it's used because there's so much military you can't go to the airport in san antonio without seeing a large number of young airmen who are who are arriving for basic training or leaving and so you know on the way down i'm traveling in uniform to military city usa and i'm going to meet with this airman and having had the unfortunate opportunity to meet with a lot of airmen and families over the course of my career especially in the two years i was the air component commander for central command where we lost a number of soldiers sailors airmen marines while i was there i'd had experience with handling the tragedy of death and talking with the families and so i had a good sense of what i was stepping into i'll never forget you know going to the funeral and i'm and i met with the pastor of the church frank pomeroy and it continually remains perhaps one of the most profound spiritual moments that i am that i had as chief when you know pastor pomeroy stood up and started off by asking us if we would pray for the shooter and his family and he did so while his fourteen year old daughter was in a casket because she they had lost her in the shooting i don't know if there's better example of spiritual courage right we forgive those who trespass against us i don't know that we're going to find a better example of that and and so being there for that airman being there for those families was you know both profound and also i think every time there's a setback or a failure in an institution it's an opportunity for the leaders to teach the next generation how to handle failure because we all get knocked down all institutions have failures the question is not whether you're going to fail the question is how do you handle it when you do fail do you take ownership do you step up do you get back up and do you teach the next generation of leaders how to handle failure so that they can be more prepared when it comes to them because it's going to come to them my concern on this particular one was would there be a hostile reaction by the community to my being there because and it's a hostile reaction not to me but a hostile reaction to the united states air force and there was none of that it was a welcoming opening sutherland springs is an incredible community and again i go back to you know pastor frank pomeroy who is just an incredible an incredible spiritual leader i think he set the tone for all of us when he asked us to pray for

Malcolm Gladwell (31:52)

the shooter mm and there was there wasn't a hostile reaction because you showed

Dave Goldfein (31:59)

up i don't know how much of it was because i think it was more we were all there for the same purpose yeah right i was not there to do anything other than to i mean i didn't sit i didn't sit in the front row they they tried to you know move me up the front row and i said no i'm part i'm part of this community today and so i want to sit with community and i'd like to sit in an area that is you know with the families that are represented here and and so this was not a you know we made a point i made a point of my team i said do not please make this a big protocol event for the chief of staff at the air force this is dave goldfinger coming here to show my respect my love for these families and to represent the institution that let them down

Heather Wilson (33:02)

so i don't think i could have done first of all i think dave was you know there's a when people think about the american air force they don't think about somebody in civilian clothes the secretary they think about our uniform military and so i think dave was the right one to represent us there and he and i talk about this i also think i'm not sure i could have done what he did i mean it was it was just pretty amazing as a leader to do that but i don't mean with the humility that he did it because he's that way but just the whole thing's just so incredibly heartbreaking

Malcolm Gladwell (33:44)

one last question it's such an extraordinary story can you reflect on what this ought to teach us what this taught you and what this ought to teach us about what a leader is

Heather Wilson (34:00)

there's a variety of lessons i think woven into this i actually had to go up to capitol hill and testify in front of the senate several months after this this happened and anybody who testifies in front of the senate needs to be prepared to be grilled to get really hard questions and i've had harder questions on more benign topics than i did on that day and i think part of it was because i did in my opening statement pretty much what dave and i had done the day after it happened which was to own it and to tell the senate what we were doing to fix it and i of course had met individually with the senators mostly the senators and the house members most directly affected i remember we had a wonderful director of legislative affairs general steve basham we called him bash he was a b two pilot very experienced in legislative affairs and aviation and he was sitting behind me in his very stoic way as he did as a two star pilot and helped prepare me he had been there monday morning sitting through the meetings he had gone with me to the hill for all of the one on ones he had been involved in all of this and he was usually just very straight guy very professional guy and when we walked out of that hearing he said you know madam secretary i learned something today that's pretty strong statement coming from a two star with all of his experience i said well what's that bash he said the result of today's hearing wasn't decided today it happened in the twenty four hours after the incident when you and the chief took ownership and by taking ownership by owning failure we not only allowed the institution to focus on fixing the problem and focusing on the future rather than on kind of trying to mess around and deny the past but it also you know sometimes when institutions screw up they get sued or there's claims or whatever and yes the government did get sued the air force got sued by the families of the victims

Dave Goldfein (36:22)

but

Heather Wilson (36:22)

for as the institution the families also if we had denied responsibility the relationship between the communities and the service would have been completely different and because it would have been arm's length difference with lawyers talking to lawyers and it would not have allowed them to heal either and so i think it mattered to the institution to be able to say okay when things get screwed up the best thing to do is to own it and fix it even when it really hurts and it's also the best for the people who have been impacted by the failure

Dave Goldfein (37:04)

i'll share with you that i you know i've come to believe over the years that the the journey to becoming an inspirational servant leader is a journey that actually never ends i'm still not the servant leader i want to be but i'm working on it and i think if we ever get to a point where we plant the flag as leaders and believe we've figured it all out and got it all maybe that's a pretty good indication of it's time to ret because we stop learning we stop listening we stop growing as leaders and so you know leadership as a servant leader is a gift and it's a gift that's offered by those you're privileged to lead and you've got to earn and re earn that gift every single day and you and you earn trust and confidence as a leader over weeks months and years but it can be lost in a single moment of indiscretion or bad decision making or bad behavior and so for us there was an opportunity that was presented for us to teach that next generation of leaders what servant leadership looks like and so perhaps part of the you know the positive outcome of this incredibly terrible tragedy for these families in this community is there's a there's a story here that can help the next generation when they face something similar and how to step up as leaders and take ownership

Malcolm Gladwell (38:35)

i'm going to change what i said at the beginning i don't just want heather wilson to run for president i want the two of them on the ticket doesn't matter which party doesn't matter which order wilson and golfing or golfing and wilson wilson and goldfing in twenty twenty eight to remind us what real leadership looks like if you want to know more about the two of them they wrote a wonderful book together get back lessons in servant leadership links to the book are in our show notes revisionist history is produced by nina byrd lawrence lucy sullivan and ben nadaff haffrey our editor is karen shakerji fact checking by angeli mercado our executive producer is jacob smith engineering by nina bird lawrence owen miller and sarah bruger original music by luis guerra sound design and mastering by jake gorski i'm malcolm gladwell coming next week on our mistakes

Dave Goldfein (39:34)

series he's like yo i need you

Heather Wilson (39:37)

to make a record and i said what he said make a record with

Dave Goldfein (39:40)

j lo and put ja on it

Heather Wilson (39:42)

and make it a duet

Malcolm Gladwell (39:45)

imagine never buying gas again ev's electric vehicles are as easy to charge as your phone and perfect for everyday life drive daily with confidence everywhere you go most americans drive forty miles a day most ev's are equipped with two hundred to four hundred miles of range they've got fewer parts fewer repairs and fewer headaches with hundreds of new and used ev models available today there's an ev to fit every lifestyle and every budget ghost the gas station and save up to two thousand dollars a year not buying gas ev's are perfect for real life with a daily range that allows you to drive with confidence wherever you want to go and charging is easy plug in overnight at home just like your phone or use a fast charger and get back on the road in as little as twenty minutes learn more at electricforall dot org sundae is built on a deceptively simple premise a healthier yard starts beneath the surface by analyzing your soil and using climate data sundae creates a custom yard plan powered by nutrient dense ingredients instead of traditional synthetic treatments it's a shift away from guesswork and towards understanding which historically tends to produce better outcomes go to getsunday dot com to get your free custom yard analysis that website again is getsunday dot com service opens doors and at american military university it can open doors for the whole family if you have a loved one who served in the military you may qualify for reduced tuition amu offers flexible online programs designed to fit your schedule so you can keep moving forward wherever life takes you learn more at amu apus edu military open doors to the future for you and your family with the help of the american military university