Americana Music Live with Drew Holcomb and Malcolm Gladwell

Summary

Revisionist History: Americana Music Live with Drew Holcomb and Malcolm Gladwell
Release Date: August 14, 2025

In this compelling episode of Revisionist History, Malcolm Gladwell delves deep into the world of Americana music by hosting singer-songwriter Drew Holcomb at the iconic Cherry Lane Theater. The conversation traverses Drew's rich musical journey, his personal experiences, and the intricate blend of influences that shape his unique sound.

---

Introducing Drew Holcomb

[01:10] Drew Holcomb:
Pushkin. Back in the spring, I was part of a traveling variety show called no Small Endeavor. It's put on by a friend of mine, a theologian from Nashville named Lee Camp...

Drew Holcomb shares his initial involvement in the variety show no Small Endeavor, highlighting his collaboration with Lee Camp and the subsequent invitation to sit down with him at the Cherry Lane Theater. This meeting marked the beginning of a profound connection between the two, leading to an evening filled with storytelling and music.

---

Defining Americana: Beyond Country Music

[08:30] Noah:
You know, growing up, I was the music that I listened to a lot. Sort of fit in either categories of folk or rock and roll...

Drew discusses his deliberate distancing from traditional country music, instead embracing the broader and more inclusive genre of Americana. He emphasizes the freedom Americana offers, allowing artists to blend various musical elements without strict genre constraints.

---

Memphis vs. Nashville: A Tale of Two Cities

[11:12] Drew Holcomb:
In your mind, what is the difference between Memphis and Nashville?

Drew elaborates on the cultural and social distinctions between Memphis and Nashville. While Memphis maintains a tight-knit, hometown feel with a majority African American population and a strong blue-collar presence, Nashville is portrayed as a bustling metropolis attracting diverse populations for its booming music and healthcare industries. This contrast has significantly influenced Drew's musical and personal outlook.

---

Family Influences and Personal Stories

[24:55] Drew Holcomb:
I have three children that, especially with my daughter, she sort of defaults to, dad, you're doing great. You're awesome...

Exploring his upbringing, Drew reveals a large family dynamic with 28 grandkids on his mother's side. He shares poignant stories about his father—a dentist turned financial advisor—and his grandfather, a surgeon with extraordinary tales, including an encounter with the Queen. These narratives underscore the profound impact his family has had on his life and artistry.

---

Music as a Means of Grief and Healing

[34:20] Drew Holcomb:
Let's talk a little bit about the role of faith in your life and work.

Drew opens up about his spiritual journey, marked by the tragic loss of his brother at age 17. Instead of abandoning his faith, he sought solace in music, which became a pivotal tool for processing grief. Albums like Van Morrison's Moondance and David Gray's White Ladder played significant roles during this challenging period, influencing his emotional expression in songwriting.

---

Songwriting and Emotional Expression

[49:54] Drew Holcomb:
Have you ever written... the angriest song you have ever written?

Drew passionately discusses his approach to anger in music, distinguishing between destructive rage and constructive anger that highlights injustices. A notable example is the song "Ring the Bells," co-written with Abner and Amanda Ramirez, which emerged in response to the Charlottesville white supremacy rally. Drew emphasizes the therapeutic power of channeling anger into meaningful artistic expression.

---

Musical Influences and Collaborations

[63:21] Drew Holcomb:
You are always pulling from your library...

Drew reflects on his diverse musical influences, citing Bob Dylan, Tom Petty, Willie Nelson, and Paul Simon as key inspirations. He admires how these artists transcend formulas, continuously evolving their sound and storytelling. His collaborations, including performances with legends like Willie Nelson and Old Crow Medicine Show, highlight his respect for musical authenticity and legacy.

---

Live Performances and Song Highlights

Throughout the episode, Drew performs several of his original songs, each imbued with personal significance and emotional depth:

• "Dragons": A tribute to his late grandfather, blending storytelling with heartfelt melody.

  [27:45] Noah:
  "Asleep in the moonlight Ghost of my grandpa came to me in a dream..."

• "Ring the Bells": An anthemic response to societal injustices, capturing the rawness of collective anger and the need for change.

  [50:50] Unknown:
  "Ring the bells this time I mean it Bid the hatred fare thee well..."

• "Dance With Everybody": A vibrant, collaborative creation with members of Old Crow Medicine Show, celebrating unity and joy.

  [81:07] Unknown:
  "I want to dance with everybody who came through that door..."

---

Conclusion: The Intersection of History, Faith, and Music

As the evening concludes, Malcolm Gladwell and Drew Holcomb reflect on the intricate tapestry of history, personal faith, and musical evolution. Drew's journey—from a heartbroken youth to a soulful Americana artist—embodies the essence of Revisionist History: re-examining and finding deeper meaning in the narratives and experiences that shape us.

Notable Quotes:

• Drew Holcomb:
  "I don't want to sort of speak about that community as one monolith. But what I was finding was getting farther from that."
  [09:34]

• Noah:
  "Anger is not bad. It's rage that's bad..."
  [49:54]

• Drew Holcomb:
  "Music is a bit of magic, and I'm sure there's scientific and sociological ways to explain it. But I like the magic of it."
  [64:08]

This episode offers listeners an intimate glimpse into the life of Drew Holcomb, exploring how personal history, familial influences, and a quest for authentic expression converge to create music that resonates deeply with audiences.

---

Listen to Revisionist History on your preferred podcast platform and join Malcolm Gladwell as he uncovers the overlooked and misunderstood facets of our past through engaging conversations and storytelling.

Transcript

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Manny]

Why are TSA rules so confusing?

[Noah]

You got a hoodie on. Take it all.

[Manny]

I'm Manny.

[Noah]

I'm Noah. This is Devin.

[Manny]

And we're best friends and journalists with a new podcast called no Such Thing, where we get to the bottom of questions like that. Why are you screaming? Well, I can't expect what to do now if the rule was the same, go off on me, I deserve it.

[Noah]

You know, Lock him up.

[Manny]

Listen to no Such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Noah]

No Such Thing.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime on the new podcast, America's Crime Lab. Every case has a story to tell, and the DNA holds the truth.

[Noah]

He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha. This technology's already solving so many cases.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Drew Holcomb]

Pushkin. Back in the spring, I was part of a traveling variety show called no Small Endeavor. It's put on by a friend of mine, a theologian from Nashville named Lee Camp. A bunch of us got in a big tour bus, left Nashville for Louisville, then Indianapolis than Grand Rapids. Lee and I told a story about the famous showdown between the suffragettes and the anti slavery movement in the mid 19th century. And then a bunch of musicians played music to help us tell the story. It was one of the most fun things I've ever done in my life. Anyway, when you're traveling on a tour bus, you spend a lot of time talking to everyone else on the tour bus. And along the way I got to know the musical headliner on the show, the singer songwriter, Drew Holcomb. And I found him so thoughtful and fantastic and full of life that I invited him to come to New York and sit down with me at 8:24's newly reopened cherry Lane Theater. And to my delight, and I hope your delight as well, he said yes. Drew is in his early 40s. Beard lives in Nashville, but he's from Memphis. He's maybe a country artist, although he would dispute that description. His band is called the Neighbors and they've been together forever. And if you've never heard his music, you're going to hear more than a little bit on this episode, because I gave him only one rule before we had our conversation. You have to bring your guitar and it can never leave Your side. Here we go. All right. All right. Welcome, everybody, to the Cherry Lane Theater. It's going to be a great evening. I want you guys to welcome Malcolm Gladwell and Drew Holcomb.

[Noah]

Good evening. I'll get us started with a song. All right.

[Unknown]

I am fairly well now I am strong I am goodbye Long ways from home I am an orchard at the start of spring I am a mockingbird I love to sing I'm gonna fly I'm gonna. I am an old road walking on my feet I am laughing neath a weeping willow tree I'm a dog barking a honey bee sting I ain't no angel but I got my wings I'm gonna fly I'm gonna fly I'm gonna fly I'm gonna fly I'm gonna fly I'm gonna fly Fly I am moving I am flesh and bones I am a gunshot with a microphone I'm a boy at the window as the summer sun sets an old man in winter Nothing more, nothing less and I'm gonna fly I'm gonna fly I'm gonna fly.

[Drew Holcomb]

Tell me why you chose that song to start with.

[Noah]

Well, it's my favorite one I've ever written. I figure when I get nervous, just play something you like, you know?

[Drew Holcomb]

When. When did you write that song?

[Noah]

I wrote that song probably January of 2022. I always tend to write a lot of songs right around, mainly after New Year's. It's a good time to kind of get in your feelings and introspection about your life, about the world around you, and it tends to be a creative season for me.

[Drew Holcomb]

How do you decide? You say that's the favorite, your favorite song you've ever written?

[Noah]

Probably, yeah.

[Drew Holcomb]

Why? What is it about that song that interests you?

[Noah]

It was something about the song kind of came out of this. I had just turned 40 around that time, and I actually enjoyed all the weight things that I felt after turning 40. Everybody told me I should be afraid of them, but I actually really enjoyed them. I also was kind of born an old soul. My mom said I was born an old man. I felt comfortable in that transition already just because of sort of how I am. I started writing that song with the lyric started. I'm a boy at the window as the summer sun sets I have this keen memory from my childhood of being told to go to bed before the sun went down in the summertime, you know, and staring at the window and seeing my neighbor whose parents let him stay up and being sort of full of jealousy, but also sort of full of Wonder. And then also, even though I'm not old, I feel certain. I feel old in certain ways. And I sort of. The song is kind of in the tension, is me just sort of embracing the tension of that. And that tension feels more and more what I see when I look in the mirror. And so when I play that song, I feel. I feel it's like a blanket for me, you know? And also finally let myself admit that I like my own music. You're not supposed to do that. But I do like my own music.

[Drew Holcomb]

Why are you not supposed to do that?

[Noah]

I don't. It's just so, you know, cultural thing. You shouldn't. You know, if you drive down the street and see an artist listening to their own music, you might think, man, what an arrogant guy. But, yeah, which that happens in me with my kids sometimes because they want to hear my songs. I just look at people and, you know, hey, yep, it's me listening to my own song. Yeah.

[Drew Holcomb]

How would you describe the genre that that song belongs to?

[Noah]

You know, growing up, I was the music that I listened to a lot. Sort of fit in either categories of folk or rock and roll. Some country, soul. Folk. Rock was sort of how I framed it before this sort of ubiquitous word of Americana kind of came around. And it felt like they created a sort of an institutional home for artists like myself, who are definitely not country in the sort of commercial sense, and we're not rock in the sort of new radio sense. And we were a bit homeless. There's a lot of us. And so it kind of created this. So that's what I say now is Americana. But one of the great things about being quote, unquote, Americana artist is there's not really a lot of rules about what you make. How you make. Whether the song has five stanzas and no chorus or, you know, horns or whatever. You can kind of do whatever you want. It just has to be sort of made by real people in a. You know, in a real sense.

[Drew Holcomb]

You're. You're from Tennessee and you live in Nashville, but you. You take great pains to distance yourself from country music.

[Noah]

Well, it all started I'm from Memphis, which is, you know, 200 miles west and a bit south of Nashville. And we were raised Memphians are sort of. It's baked into your childhood and your upbringing to hate Nashville.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah.

[Noah]

It's part of how you're raised. For instance, my parents, every fall, we would drive to Knoxville, where they attended school, and we'd go to a Tennessee football game, and that's a 387 mile drive. So in 18 years, let's say we did it, I don't know, maybe 16 times in my childhood that I can recall. And so 32 times through Nashville we stopped. Zero times and I40 goes right through the middle of town. And my dad would just say, there's the state capitol.

[Drew Holcomb]

Keep on moving.

[Noah]

So we grew up admiring, you know, there was some country that sort of leaked into my, into my childhood. I think there's perceptions of folks outside the south that like everybody in the south just listens to country music. We listened to Motown and Bob Dylan and Amy Grant, you know, like, it was this interesting mix of like gospel music and you know, black soul music and, and then all the, My dad loved all the sort of contemporary 70s songwriter stuff. And so there's not a lot of country music in it. Yeah, yeah. In my childhood.

[Drew Holcomb]

I want to talk a little more about Memphis and Nashville. In your mind, what is the difference between Memphis and Nashville?

[Noah]

Well, practically speaking, I mean, Memphis is a very. It's a hometown city, meaning that most of the people that live there, grew up there, had family from there, grew up in the surrounding, you know, 100 mile radius. Whereas Nashville attracts people from all over the country, especially in the last 15 to 20 years. And so it's a much sort of more. Those two realities create different, very different cultures. In Memphis, everybody knows each other and where'd you go to school and who do you know? It's a bit of that small town, big city experience. Whereas in Nashville, so many young people move there because of what the city can offer them, the opportunities that may springboard out of living there. And then it's a center for, I mean, the big employers in, in Nashville or the music business and healthcare, which are both sort of booming and transient jobs. Whereas Memphis, it's, you know, these big blue collar companies like FedEx and Autozone and so just creates very different cultures. And then, you know, racially, Memphis is majority African American town. Nashville is very lily white, you know, so they're just, they're, they're very different. My favorite story to tell about, about Nashville when I moved there was Memphis is a great food town, especially cheap food, you know, tamales and barbecue and great unique pizza and just, it's just a very, you know, being a river town, there's a lot of transients over, over decades. So you get a lot of unique food. And Nashville had basically nothing that I, that I wanted to eat. And I would just complain to my wife, I was like, that's nice here. I know you're from here, and that's why I moved here, but there's nothing to eat here that I want to eat. And then Fast forward almost 20 years, and it's one of the greatest food towns, you know, in the country. Everything's there now. So it's. It's changing. It's. It's a very sort of evolving and fluid place.

[Drew Holcomb]

Maybe you can explain my favorite joke. It's my favorite joke because I. I feel it has many, many layers, many of which I don't understand.

[Noah]

Okay.

[Drew Holcomb]

It's a joke from the civil rights movement era. Black man in Detroit wakes up in the middle of the night. He's one of those people who come up from the south, you know, in the.

[Noah]

Yep.

[Drew Holcomb]

Turns to his wife and said, I had a terrible dream. And she said, what happened? He said, I dreamt that Jesus came to me and told me to go to Birmingham. And she says, did Jesus say he'd go with you? He says, Jesus said he'd go as far as Memphis.

[Noah]

That's a great joke, isn't it?

[Drew Holcomb]

Yes, it's my favorite joke of all time. Like I said, because it's a joke about Jesus who said he would be with us always, but.

[Noah]

But not in Birmingham.

[Drew Holcomb]

Not Birmingham. It's a joke about Birmingham.

[Noah]

Like, it's definitely a joke at the.

[Drew Holcomb]

Expense of dark joke.

[Noah]

Birmingham.

[Drew Holcomb]

Dark. Dark joke. But, like, why does Jesus stop at Memphis?

[Noah]

Well, because, I mean, Jesus would love Memphis. There's great food, there's great hospitality, there's great music. Like, Jesus would thrive there. Yeah, that was my experience. Jesus thrived in Memphis.

[Drew Holcomb]

You listened well, I want to go back to that mixture of things you were listening to as a kid. Motown, Amy Grant. What was the third one?

[Noah]

Bob Dylan.

[Drew Holcomb]

That's a fantastic and unusual mix of things to be exposed to. Is this your father or your mother's doing that's pushing?

[Noah]

Both. Both. Yeah. So my dad grew up in the. You know, my parents met in the third grade, and so they. They grew up seven or eight, like, blocks from each other. So there's this very sort of. I'm one of 28 grandkids. It's like a very. Yeah, there's a lot going on there. That's just on my mom's side. That doesn't include my dad's side. So.

[Drew Holcomb]

Wait, there's 28 grandkids on your mom's side?

[Noah]

That's right. Yeah. And I'm number 14 or 15. I can't remember, but. Wow. Yeah. So very, like, it'd be hard to overstate how sort of like central Christianity and religion was to my upbringing. Part of that was that when I was apparently when I was like, I don't even know how old, three, four or five years old, someone from the church came to my parents house and they were. Everybody in their. In their church was doing like a record clean out of things in their house that weren't honoring to God. And so they would get rid of all these records that I. When I heard about this in high school, I wept. I was like, oh, dad, you had all of these great records and original copies that. The image. They're out because it was the devil's music. That was really too bad. You know, a lot of Led Zeppelin got thrown out and things like that.

[Drew Holcomb]

I mean, come on.

[Noah]

Yeah. Got to get rid of it. Which we could. I'll come back to this. But my first record I ever bought was Pearl Jams 10. I was 11. I actually got it for Christmas from Santa Claus. And my dad broke the record by 5pm on Christmas Day because we had to go through the liner notes together and there's drug references and he's like, you're too young for this break. So this was an intense scene. But some of the things that made it through the gauntlet was Bob Dylan's evangelical records, of course, you know, Slow Train Coming, Saved, and there's another one. And then because he still made it in there, somehow his old records also got a passion.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah.

[Noah]

Got grandfathered in. Yeah. And he was Jewish, so there's like a thing there too. You know, you're allowed to have records made by Jewish artists, so. And then Motown was like. It was all. You could listen to Motown except for like, what's the. The, you know, the great. The Marguerite record. I'm just blanking on Sexual Healing, of course. Well, yeah, yeah. But the name of the record. What's Going On?

[Drew Holcomb]

What's Going on? Oh, what's Going on?

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Drew Holcomb]

Oh, Sexual Healing would have been.

[Noah]

Was on that record, wasn't it?

[Drew Holcomb]

No, what's going on is earlier I was saying Sexual Healing is so far beyond.

[Noah]

Oh, yeah, yeah. You can only hear that. The only. The only way you could hear that in my childhood was at a wedding by the. By the COVID band, you know, and. And so. And it still felt awkward for everybody. But so, yeah, there was. So then any Christian music was okay. Bob Dylan was okay, and Motown was okay because it was just a bunch of love songs and clean oldies stuff, you know, before the music business got, you know. Amy Messed up.

[Drew Holcomb]

Can you explain to a heathen New York City audience who Amy Grant is and why she's important?

[Noah]

Yeah, Amy Grant was sort of. I mean, the whole genre of contemporary Christian music was. There was Southern gospel, which is a whole different thing. So it's basically take the songwriter model, and people started applying it to their faith stories, which this all predates the whole. Now the big thing is all this big ensemble worship stuff, which was basically like every. All these church bands trying to sound like Coldplay and you too. So Amy Grant was like this young songwriter, and she was. They created a whole radio sort of format around artists like her, and she became the. The most most famous and successful. And then she had a crossover pop hit called Baby Baby that sort of sent her into regular superstardom. And, yeah, she was just a very beloved woman. And she's. She's also, as a human, she's like. She's honestly one of the greatest ones I've ever met.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah, you know her.

[Noah]

I know her because my wife knew her. But I moved to Nashville again, sort of like country and Christian music. This town sucks, you know. And then I got to know these people. I was like, wow, these people are all really great. This is tough.

[Drew Holcomb]

Wait, what. So wait, what. What denomination were your parents?

[Noah]

Yeah, they were. They were. They went to like, an independent Bible church.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah.

[Noah]

Yeah. So it was non denominational. That's very. They're very proud of that.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah. I was asking about other music that. That. That made it in.

[Noah]

Yeah, I mean, I. I think basically my parents were pretty okay with all the classics. So we would go see, you know, you could go see Paul Simon. They built the pyramid in Memphis. When I was a kid, which was New arena where the Memphis Tigers played. And so I got a job there in high school as a part of the event staff. And so I got to see all these concerts for free by telling people to stop smoking, you know, and had my little yellow shirt on and, you know, anything from boys to men to ZZ Top to whatever could sell 15,000 tickets, I was, you know, exposed to at a certain point, the sort of. The rules weren't really that well enforced. It was a sort of a young. When we were young, it was very much that way. But our alarm clock every day growing up was. My mom played piano and she would play hymns. Like that was get up and Go to School was like, up from the grave he Arose, you know, which was like a whole. Her, like whole play on get up and Go to School. You know, by the way, that's Fantastic. Yeah, it was great.

[Drew Holcomb]

A daily resolution.

[Noah]

She's got a great sense of humor.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah. I have a theory which I very grandiosely call Gladwell's theory of asymmetrical parenting, which is that at any given moment when we account for our parental influence on our lives, we only talk about one parent. It can change over time, but you try this out on somebody, you ask somebody. Yeah. So what are your parents? People will never talk about their parents. They will the minute you dig into it. They only talk about one for a while. So I would like you to give me an asymmetrical parental theory of the Jew Holcomb childhood.

[Noah]

I completely disagree with that theory.

[Drew Holcomb]

No, no, I'm not saying that you only, only one mattered. I'm saying that at any given moment, only one matters.

[Noah]

Yeah. In, in the, in a particular story.

[Drew Holcomb]

Toggling.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Drew Holcomb]

Right. So it may be from, you know, in high school it's only your mom, and then in college it's only your.

[Noah]

Yeah, that's a. I, I, My parents are going to listen to this probably, you know.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah, yeah. That's the whole point.

[Noah]

Yeah. Yeah. I think we were actually talking earlier backstage about how as dads, you sometimes get this free pass that it's almost like. And I've seen this, I have three children that, especially with my daughter, she sort of defaults to, dad, you're doing great. You're awesome. Even if my wife Ellie has done all of the hard work that day in the parenting space. So with that said, I think that that's probably true in a lot of ways that my dad had sort of an outsized influence.

[Drew Holcomb]

What did your dad do?

[Noah]

Well, he was a dentist, and then he hated it, so he quit and became a financial advisor. Seriously? True story.

[Drew Holcomb]

This reminds me of one of my favorite stories about a friend of mine whose dad was an investment banker and he once had a long heart to heart with his daughter, my friend, about how he felt his career had been misspent and he made a series of terrible choices and he had squandered his life in a profession with no meaning. And she was very moved by this because she didn't realize her father had this other side. And she said, dad, so what do you think you should have been? And he says, I think I should have been a tax attorney.

[Noah]

That's kind of like, kind of what you're hearing here.

[Drew Holcomb]

It's kind of like what your dad did.

[Noah]

Yeah, well, he, he said that he was just very, he was very sort of bored by the monotony of dentistry and how he's. He's very extroverted and he was trying to have conversations with people and they couldn't because, you know, oh, he was.

[Drew Holcomb]

One of those annoying dentists who's like asking you questions and you're like 17 things in your mind.

[Noah]

Totally. Well, and I think, honestly, I think it was a. It was a serious crossroads for him because he'd spent. He put himself through dental school selling jewelry out of a tackle box. This is like he. He worked his way really hard to get himself this, you know, job and, and this career. But then a decade in, he realized how much he really did not enjoy it and found a way out of it. It took him. It was a. It wasn't like an immediate transition. He went to one day a week to doing the other thing, to two days a week doing the other thing, to half and half. And then eventually, when I was in high school, sold his practice and went the full time, the other direction. He loved music and he had wanted to pursue music in high school. He wanted to be in a, like, in a. In a garage band. And his dad, who was even more strict, you know, than my parents generation, basically was the cut your hair and don't you. You know, he has a story. He says, he tells a story about my grandfather. They're driving in the car, and my grandfather smoked cigarettes nonstop. And Bill Withers Lean on Me was on the radio and dad was like 14 years old in the passenger seat. And it's that part of the song where if you need a friend, call me, you just call me. And my grandfather was a jazz guy. He hated popular music. He said, finally takes a drag on a cigarette after about this, the seventh or eighth call meeting, he goes, well, just call him, damn it. So he had this, like, weird relationship where his father squashed his creative.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah.

[Noah]

Dreams. And so I think when I sort of showed interest in this, he. He sort of just launched fully in with me.

[Drew Holcomb]

Oh, really?

[Noah]

Yeah. You know, the first thing I told him I wanted to pursue music, I had like an okay guitar. And he's like, well, let's go to the guitar shop. Let's get you. Get you something nice. You know, if you're really going to work hard at it, I'm in your corner. Yeah, that was his two rules, where if you're going to work hard at it. And then he said and promised me that if, if it's not working, you'll know when to walk away and move on with your life. And he could say that from experience because he walked away from something, you know, he didn't just stick with the career that he chose as a 19 year old really because he started dental school. Back then you didn't have to get a college degree to go to dental school. You just had to get the prereqs, which he did and three semesters and then started dental school as a 19 year old. So.

[Drew Holcomb]

Can you play another song?

[Noah]

Yeah, sure. All right, I'll. I'll. Since we're on, this is sort of symmetrical, asymmetrical. I'm gonna go down the street to my grandparents house. Grew up five doors down the street from my grandfather who was a sort of lion of a man. He was a bit of a big fish personality. He would tell these stories that you didn't know how much of it was true and how much of it was fiction. Lived a very interesting life. Was a surgeon. Was the chief of surgery in Tokyo immediately following World War II. Operated on Admiral Nagano two weeks before he was executed. Like he just has these like wild stories in his life. And one of them was that he told the story about how he went to England with his friend who raised Labrador retrievers, who got invited to this dog trial at the Queen's estate. And so he went and he was very old and couldn't walk around very well. And he came back with this wild story about how he got to ride around the Queen's estate in the Queen's Land Rover with her driving it. And we were all like, sure, you know, sure you did. And he passed away about six years later. And we got a letter from the Queen secretary sending her regrets of his passing and sharing how much the Queen enjoyed the day she spent with him driving around her estate in her Land Rover. So.

[Drew Holcomb]

There you go.

[Noah]

I wrote this song about him many years after he died. He just had a huge influence on me. In songs called Dragons. I was climbing a mountain.

[Unknown]

Asleep in the moonlight Ghost of my grandpa came to me in a dream.

[Noah]

As the.

[Unknown]

Stars hung above us he started singing this chorus. He laughed loud as heaven and said this to me. Take a few chances a few worthy romances Go swimming in the ocean on New Year's Day don't listen to the cold critics Stand up and bear witness Go slay all the dragons that stand in your way.

[Noah]

We stayed up and.

[Unknown]

Talked until the sunrise of war and love and sorrow he said stop spending all your money on forgiveness of sins Today's all you promised don't trouble with tomorrow he faded into the forest proudly singing this hymn Take a few chances, a few worthy romances Go swimming in the ocean on New Year's Day don't listen to the critics Stand up, bear with me witness Go slay all the dragons that stand in your way.

[Noah]

I.

[Unknown]

Woke up with a fever surrounded by lightning all my windows were open I let the rain flood in the past felt like the present With a future uncertain I sang like a sparrow lost in the wind Take a few chances Few worthy romances Go swimming in the ocean on New Year's Day don't listen to the critics Stand up and bear witness Go slay all the dragons that stand in your way Go slay all the dragons that stand in your way.

[Noah]

Thank you.

[Drew Holcomb]

Incredibly beautiful tribute.

[Noah]

Thank you. Yeah, he's a beautiful man.

[Drew Holcomb]

We'll be right back. The year is 776 B.C. imagine you're an athlete who's traveled to Athens for the first Olympic Games. It's the night before the big event and you're tossing and turning on your woven reed mat. Meanwhile, the guy two houses down, Carabas of Elisa is sleeping soundly on his more comfortable mattress. The next day, Carabas goes out and wins it all. Coincidence? Perhaps, but science has proven that sleeping well is essential to performing at your peak. Which is why Saatva is proud to be named the official mattress and restorative sleep provider for the US Olympic and Paralympic teams. They'll help the US Olympic and Paralympic Committee highlight the essential role of sleep in recovery and performance. For the LA28 games, Saatva will provide athletes with mattresses, linens and pillows to help ensure they get the restorative sleep that's crucial to their recovery. Of course, you don't have to be an elite athlete to enjoy that kind of deep restorative sleep. Just visit saatva.com and save $200 on a thousand dollars or more at saatva.com gladwell that's S double A TBA.com gladwell.

[Unknown]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anabe is the only machine washable sofa inside, inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam Blend plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop [e-mail] Authors are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Noah]

A foot washed up, a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

These are the coldest of cold cases. But everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA using new scientific tools. They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.

[Noah]

He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors. And you'll meet the team behind the scenes at othram, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Drew Holcomb]

And we're back. Let's talk a little bit about the role of faith in your life and work.

[Noah]

Okay.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah, you. So you grew up in a very religious family. You went to seminary in Scotland. Tell me about that decision.

[Noah]

I, I think I've always sort of grown up. I think a lot of people that grew up in a world that I grew up in sort of either chose to just join into that space as adults or they sort of run the other direction and go through a deconstruction phase where they, you know, on a spectrum of sort of kindness to full vitriol, they depart from that space. And instead I tried to navigate sort of a third way, which is I didn't have a personal experience with faith that sort of mirrored what I was told it was going to be like and that it would bring all this meaning and stuff to my life. And When I was 17, my brother passed away. He was born with spina bifida and had all sorts of health issues. But still suddenly out of nowhere, I was out of the country when it happened. I'm doing like a summer of Spanish immersion in the Dominican Republic and passed away and got home all of the sacraments and words and instruments and communities of faith were sort of bubbled up in me, and it wasn't making sense for me. So I had sort of a crisis of faith. And instead of turning away from it, I was still sort of trying to figure it out. But music was really the thing that kind of helped me make sense of my life. I'll never forget there were two records in particular in that era. One was Van Morrison's Moondance. The other one was David Gray's White Ladder that I would just. I would just drive in my car and just listen to these records and sob. And those records weren't even necessarily about grief, but they were grief records for me. And so. But I also didn't. My experience with faith and the faith community was that while I was struggling to believe what they told me was the right thing to believe, I also was experiencing a lot of love and affection from them and had from a young age. And so a lot of people's hurt and deconstruction is fed off of abuse or mistreatment or. You know, and that was not my experience. And so I couldn't have that same sort of departure because I was loved well. And so it's created this really interesting tension in me because I was also expanding the way my worldview is expanding in ways that didn't line up with a lot of what I grew up around. But also, we're talking about it. You know, it's easy to lump people into these categories. And really, the spectrum of people who helped raise me, they all have different. Different sort of spectrum of beliefs about different things, whether cultural, cosmic, theological, cultural, political, et cetera. So I don't want to sort of speak about that community as one monolith. But. But at the same time, what I was finding and who I was becoming was getting farther from that. And part of the way I. Part of that was going to seminary. I went to Scotland. They had a program at St. Andrews University where I could go for two weeks a semester, twice a year, and then write my papers. And so, you know, I was just. I was searching, but I was enjoying the search. You know, it was like. It was less of a. Like, frantic, looking for the lost keys when you're trying to get out of the house. And more of a. Like, I just want to keep looking. I'm finding a lot of interesting things. I'm reading a lot of interesting people. Just allowed myself to engage in reading and in music and in ways that was sort of open to it instead of looking for a fight and that's sort of the way I would say that I was raised, is that the church in that era, the school that I went to, was a wall. And it was more of a wall and less of a bridge. It's more about protecting the flock instead of building a bridge to the world. And I would say my faith now is much more of like, I just want to be a bridge builder. But I haven't necessarily. Haven't rejected some of the sort of central teachings of Christian orthodoxy, but I have certainly rejected sort of American evangelical culture. And it's cost me a lot of fans, but that's okay.

[Drew Holcomb]

Memphis to Scotland is a long way.

[Noah]

Yeah. My senior high school English teacher took a trip every year to the uk and the first place we went was Scotland. And that immediately, within three days on that trip, I said, I'm going to study abroad here.

[Drew Holcomb]

This.

[Noah]

This place is. Edinburgh is just this wonderland. And, you know, I loved English literature. I loved English history, you know, and honestly, like, the south was settled by Scots, so a lot of it, you know, so there was, like. When Braveheart came out, every Southerner in the world was like, yeah, you know.

[Drew Holcomb]

Was there anything about the music of Scotland that appealed to you?

[Noah]

Yeah, yeah, there's a. There was a. There was a pub down the street from my flat. Sandy Bell was the name of it. And every night they had traditional Scottish music, You know, people playing instruments. I didn't even know what they were, but they play these traditional Scottish folk songs, and they'd always end with Loch Lomond.

[Unknown]

You take the high road and I'll.

[Noah]

Take the low road and I'll be.

[Unknown]

In Scotland before ya where me and my true love are ne' er to.

[Noah]

Meet again on the bonnie, bonnie banks of Loch Lomond. I was like. I'd sit in the corner crying about me and this mythical woman I'm going to meet at the bonnie banks of Loch Lomond.

[Drew Holcomb]

Your Scottish accent's pretty good.

[Noah]

You got a lot of practice. My kids. My kids are always asking for it, but there's something about the Scottish weather and the story that sort of. That's where I started writing songs. I was still sort of in the throes of my grief, and I was trying to process that grief. And so as a student, I decided my senior thesis in my program was going to be an oral history about my brother's life and death from everybody that knew him. And sort of the question was, why does a severely handicapped child have such like, so because when he passed away, There were, like, 2,000 people at the funeral, 2,000. Yeah. There were like a hundred nurses from the hospital that had met him over the last 15 years came and school, the entire elementary school he went to had a day out of school and they all came.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah.

[Noah]

Yeah. It was this incredible celebration of a very short but very sort of thorough life. And so my sort of analytical side of my brain with the creative side of my brain was like, what if I just wrote an oral history of his life and interviewed his doctors, teachers, his neighbors, his cousins and why did. Why did Jay matter so much to you? So I was working on that in Scotland and that's when I started writing songs because I didn't really know anybody. I always say that that time I was alone. I wasn't necessarily lonely, but I was alone. And I had taken my guitar and I just started writing. And when I got back home from that. That semester, I started playing these songs for some friends. And I think they were all expecting something completely different for my life. Like, I got laughed at a couple times before the songs. Like, wait, you wrote songs? I know you play music, but like, aren't you going to be like history lawyer guy or something? And I'm playing these songs, they're like, oh, these are.

[Drew Holcomb]

What's the first song you wrote that you were proud of?

[Noah]

Song called Nightingale. That I don't remember, but I do remember it being about my then friend and much later became my wife, Ellie. But it was a heartbreak song because she had sort of ripped the heart from my chest in that era of my life. So.

[Drew Holcomb]

Is that why you don't remember it?

[Noah]

Yeah, I got to move on from that song. Yeah.

[Drew Holcomb]

You can't have forgotten all of it.

[Noah]

No, I mean, that was something like. Well, okay, this is embarrassing. I do remember the first line.

[Unknown]

Cinderella was a fairy tale.

[Noah]

One.

[Unknown]

That's true.

[Noah]

I don't remember where it went after that, but there was something about.

[Unknown]

She sang like a nightingale.

[Noah]

Something. Something that rhymes with truth.

[Drew Holcomb]

Wait, did you play this for her after she broke up with you?

[Noah]

Well. Well, you made an assumption there that we dated in the first place.

[Drew Holcomb]

Oh, at what point in the trajectory of you and Ellie did she hear that song?

[Noah]

I mean, pretty soon after I wrote it, but I didn't tell her it was about her.

[Drew Holcomb]

You know, she didn't figure it out.

[Noah]

No, she did not.

[Drew Holcomb]

Oh, come on.

[Noah]

Well, that's according to her. That's. You've talked to her about that. But yeah, so that. I mean, that was. That was the first song I sang and I was playing it like for my Buddies in college. In college. And they're like, that's pretty good. You know. But that. That was before Scotland. That was the first song I wrote. The Scotlands started writing songs that I. I don't know, just something started to click, but really I didn't. It took me. I moved quickly into sort of what I would call my 20 to 23 year old Steve Earle, Bruce Springsteen, Ryan Adams imitation phase, where I was really trying to write the rugged third person minor chord songs. And it wasn't me, but I needed to do that to find. To find my. My path. But none of those songs are available on the Internet.

[Drew Holcomb]

Which Bruce. Which Spruce. Springsteen. There are many Bruce Springsteens. Which is your favorite Bruce Springsteen?

[Noah]

Well, my favorite Bruce Springsteen is Greetings from Asbury Park, Bruce Springsteen. But I like them all. But the one I was imitating was like the. Nebraska. Tom.

[Drew Holcomb]

I was gonna say Nebraska.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Drew Holcomb]

Wait, I want to talk about Nebraska for a moment. I. Because I was obsessed with that record.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Drew Holcomb]

And, you know, it's funny because music like that doesn't just influence musicians, it influences writers.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Drew Holcomb]

And the song that I always came back to was. I don't know what it's called, but it's the one about the guy who's a police officer.

[Noah]

Highway patrolman.

[Drew Holcomb]

Highway patrolman.

[Noah]

I've played that song a hundred times.

[Drew Holcomb]

Man turns his back on his family.

[Noah]

He just ain't no good he just.

[Drew Holcomb]

Ain'T no good that was like as a. As a kind of template for writing an emotionally powerful story. It's just stuck in my head. It was. It's so. That song is so beautifully constructed. Can you. Do you. Can you. Can you remember any of it? Can you.

[Noah]

I can play. I can play the chorus, probably.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah, play the chorus. For those who don't know the song, this is. It's. I think it's one of his finest songs.

[Noah]

I can do a part of it. Let's see.

[Unknown]

My name is Joe Roberts. I work for the state sergeant out of Burtonville Barracks Number eight.

[Drew Holcomb]

I've always been an honest man an.

[Unknown]

Honest man Honest as I could.

[Noah]

I.

[Unknown]

Got a brother named Frankie and Frankie.

[Drew Holcomb]

Ain'T no good Is it bad that I sing along?

[Noah]

Ask the audience I don't know but then you know goes on yeah we're.

[Unknown]

Laughing and drinking Nothing feels better than blood on blood Taking turns dancing with Maria the band plays Night of the Jungle Flood Catch him when he's straight Yep.

[Drew Holcomb]

No. Teach him how to walk that line.

[Noah]

It'S two different courses oh, all right.

[Drew Holcomb]

Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[Noah]

Sorry. Because. Because my favorite is, like any.

[Unknown]

Like any brother would. Man turns his back on his family, but he just ain't no good.

[Noah]

And then there's this. That line. To me, that. That song. I love that song. For a lot of different reasons. I'll just. The song's been out for 40 years, so. Spoiler alert. Basically, the narrator is a state trooper, highway patrolman, and his brother's a mess, and he ends up injuring, possibly killing somebody in a bar fight. And he gets called into the scene and realizes his own brother and his brother, he's chasing him out of the state in Michigan, and he lets him go into Canada, you know, and lets him escape. And then he ends with that course and turns it back on his family. He just ain't no good. And my brother, who's now been eight years sober, there was a lot of years where that was, like, that was our dynamic, you know, I was the good rule following, successful big brother, and he was the. You know, he didn't mind me saying that we're very close, but. And he's turned his life around, but I thought that was going to be. My life was like, I'm gonna lose him to his vice. And so I'd play that song on nights when I hadn't heard from him. And I love that song.

[Drew Holcomb]

There's a lot of emotion in here.

[Noah]

A lot of emotion in here.

[Drew Holcomb]

In. No, in you.

[Noah]

Oh, yeah. I'll take that as a compliment.

[Drew Holcomb]

I did not just. Folks may not know this, but we. Drew and I met a couple months back doing this thing which can't be described.

[Noah]

And it's a form of a variety show.

[Drew Holcomb]

A variety show. We hung out together. I was on the bus with Drew, among other things. And you said, there's a series of things. I didn't know anything about you. And you said something to me that just so surprised me, and I would. You said that you just talked about how you have a. You have. You. You get angry.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Drew Holcomb]

And I didn't see that. I didn't see that in you. And I was so surprised to hear that.

[Noah]

I was sort of taught growing up that anger is bad. You know that. What I've since learned is that anger is not bad. It's rage that's bad, which is like sort of the. This is. I'm getting all counsely on you guys, but it's been a big part of my journey as a. As a person and as a musician. It's not the anger that's bad. Anger is like the red light. You Know, it's what you do with it. And so I've learned, instead of getting sort of physically upset is to go, why am I so angry? What is it? It's usually some sort of injustice either against me or the world or my neighbor or my family, or is. It's. It's your yellow light that's flashing that you're lonely or sad or hurt. And so I've learned that it's like my superpower, like, when I'm angry. I know that. I know that I got to figure out what's going on instead of trying to tamp it down, you know?

[Drew Holcomb]

Have you ever written. What is your. What is the angriest song I have an idea that you've ever written?

[Noah]

Oh, that's great. Song called Ring the Bells.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yes.

[Noah]

Okay. You want to hear it?

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah. Wait, you got to give the context.

[Noah]

Yeah. I wrote this song with my. I wrote this song with my friends Abner and Amanda Ramirez. Abner is a Cuban American. Amanda's African American. We wrote this song together, I think, three days after the Charlottesville white supremacy rally when some very famous sort of American Christians were both sidesing the situation, and we got real pissed and wrote this song together.

[Unknown]

Ring the bells this time I mean it Bid the hatred fare thee well Give back the pieces of my Jesus Take your counterfeit to hell Bang the drums this means war not the kind you're waiting for we say mercy won't be rationed here. It's what we're fighting for. And if all is fair in love and war, then what the hell is love even for? If we can't sing it loud enough, we'll keep on adding voices. Ring the bell, Ring the bells. Ring the bells. Ring the bell.

[Noah]

Just a little bit of it.

[Drew Holcomb]

That's. That's what I. That's the one I had in mind.

[Noah]

I was. We were. I was very angry when I wrote that song. Felt good.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah. It's funny. It's. It. You're.

[Noah]

You.

[Drew Holcomb]

You. You play it like a man possessed.

[Noah]

Well, I was watching Daniel Tiger one time with my daughter, and there was this.

[Drew Holcomb]

I just love to segue from, yeah, possessed, to as someone who. There's a lot of stuff in my life as well.

[Noah]

It's very related to what we're talking about. So there's this scene where Daniel gets upset, and the mom says, okay, Daniel, we'll learn a song. If you feel so mad that you want to roar, take a deep breath.

[Unknown]

Then count to four.

[Noah]

And I was like, I'm sorry, Emmy Loop. She's four years old, I'm like, that's not always true. Sometimes what you need to do when you feel so mad that you want to roar, take a deep breath and roar. Yes, get it out. Don't stuff that stuff inside of you.

[Drew Holcomb]

We'll be right back with Drew's answers to the homework assignment I gave him. I asked him to come up with his five favorite country songs of all time so he could compare his list to mine.

[Unknown]

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets, and kids. But with Annabe, you never have to stress about messes again. At WashablesOfAs.com, discover Annabe sofas, the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today.

[Noah]

Visit 1.

[Unknown]

Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Noah]

A foot washed up, a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

These are the coldest of cold cases. But everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA. Using new scientific tools, they're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.

[Noah]

He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors, and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at othram, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Manny]

Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this.

[Drew Holcomb]

Attention passengers.

[Noah]

The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone to land this plane.

[Manny]

Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying like, okay, pull this. Until this, Pull that, turn this. It's just, I can do my ice clothes. I'm Manny.

[Drew Holcomb]

I'm Noah.

[Noah]

This is Devin.

[Manny]

And on our new show, no Such Thing, we get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on a overconfidence.

[Noah]

Those who lack expertise lack the expertise.

[Drew Holcomb]

They need to recognize that they lack expertise.

[Manny]

And then as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what? Oh, that's the Runway. I'm looking at this thing. See, Listen to no Such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Drew Holcomb]

And we're back. Can we talk? Let's talk about musical influences for a moment. Let's start with Emmy Lou Harris.

[Noah]

I would love to.

[Drew Holcomb]

When we were thinking about this evening about our list of iconic country songs and one of my, one of on my list is Boulder to Birmingham. Do you know that? No, that's the, that is. It is the one of the few songwriting credits she has on her first. I think she only has one songwriting credit on her first nine albums, and that's Boulder to Birmingham, which she writes about Graham Parsons after he dies. And it is actually, we're going to play a little bit of it. It is the most. Just play the first little like.

[Noah]

I've never heard this song. I'm very excited.

[Drew Holcomb]

It's so heart wrenchingly beautiful. And the. I mention it only because we were talking about grief and about emotion is a song. It's a song about grief and it's a. The articulation of her sense of loss and longing is just perfect. Anyway, here it is, I think.

[Noah]

In.

[Unknown]

Your saving grace I would walk all the way from Birmingham.

[Noah]

If I thought.

[Unknown]

I could see.

[Noah]

I could see.

[Drew Holcomb]

I would walk all the way from Boulder to Birmingham if I thought I could see I could see See your face that's her. The way she articulates her sense of loss.

[Noah]

She sings with so much ache, too.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah. Did you do your homework?

[Noah]

I did my homework, yeah. Your one assignment I respect. I, I, I. Yeah. I had some arguments with my wife when I picked this first one because she's like, I don't think of that as a country song. And I was like, well, it was like a number three on the country charts and. But I think my favorite country song or what I think is the best country song is Wichita Lineman by Glenn Campbell. I Need you more than want you and I want you for all time. There's a song about a. Jimmy Webb wrote the song and he talks about how his. I think it was his uncle was a lineman. He always remembered seeing him up on the poles working on the electrical lines. And it's so. The song came easy to him because he could imagine him, you know, being away from home for a long time, wishing for to be home with the one he loves. And it stood the test of time too. It's a very simple song about a working man missing his. His love. But that's my number one.

[Drew Holcomb]

Your wife said that was not a country song.

[Noah]

She said she doesn't think of it as a country song.

[Drew Holcomb]

What does she think of it as?

[Noah]

She. That. That was not clear to me. We agreed on my. My second one though.

[Drew Holcomb]

Which is what?

[Noah]

Which is crazy by Patsy Cline.

[Drew Holcomb]

Oh, yes. Okay.

[Noah]

I mean it's such a standard, but it is so good. And I love that Willie Nelson wrote it. And then a couple years later he kind of quit the industry, moves to Austin, Texas and writes the most non commercial country record ever. That's, you know, Redheaded stranger. As a 43 year old, his career blows up. Just love the story. And we've played a lot. We've gotten to play a lot of shows with Willie over the years. I've sang with him a dozen times.

[Drew Holcomb]

Well, you know, Willie Nelson, I didn't know.

[Noah]

Yeah, I mean, we're not, we don't like call each other because he's. He's, you know, he's. He's an older guy and. But I have, yeah, we've shared the stage and sung. He does this really neat thing every night where he does a medley of I Saw the Light, Will the Circle Be Unbroken, One other blanket on. And he invites, you know, the opener to come out and sing it with him. So I've got to do that, I don't know, 12 or 15 times. So he and Dolly to me are the two living legends left, you know.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah.

[Noah]

In that space. And then my third one would be Jolene as a Tennessee. And if I didn't mention a Dolly Parton song, probably couldn't go home. What's your other one or two?

[Drew Holcomb]

George Jones. The Grand Tour.

[Noah]

That's a sad song.

[Drew Holcomb]

It's. You know, I have. I might be more attracted to. You are attracted to pure emotion, it seems like. And I'm attracted in country music to over the top grandiosity and the grand tour. George Jones is like, he's like the. He Is, in the best possible sense of the word, a caricature of a country singer. That voice. We're gonna make him play just the beginning of. And play. Play the grand tour. Until the line chills me to the bone.

[Noah]

Step brighter. Come on in.

[Unknown]

If you'd like to take the grand tour of the lonely house so fantastic. I once was home Sweet, sweet home I have nothing here to sell you Just something that I will tell you.

[Noah]

You.

[Unknown]

Some things I know will chill you to the bone.

[Drew Holcomb]

I mean, the notion that you would write a song that. With a straight face has the phrase chill you to the bone. And, you know, he's.

[Noah]

He.

[Drew Holcomb]

He's got nothing. He doesn't have anything that's chilling you to the bone.

[Noah]

No.

[Drew Holcomb]

Some woman dumped him.

[Noah]

Yeah, she.

[Drew Holcomb]

That's it.

[Noah]

An empty house That's. This will chill you to the bone My empty house.

[Drew Holcomb]

My empty house. He's so. I just can't get over the fact he's so genius.

[Noah]

Yeah. You love the melodrama.

[Drew Holcomb]

I love the melodrama.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Drew Holcomb]

I once, back in the day of mixtapes, I used to make these mixtapes constantly. And they were always named after. For reasons I forget now, they were always named after popes. So on the front of the CD case, I'd have a image of one of the popes, like, you know, Pope Pius XII or Emmanuel the 16th and then the. So I would have all. I made like 10 of them because there were a lot of popes. And I was once driving with some person who didn't know me very well, and I was playing one of these mixtapes. A long drive. One of these mixtapes after another. And after like, the third one, this guy Mike turned to me and said, what is the matter with you? Every single song was some kind of melancholy, over the top weeper. I'm happy if the tempo is never picked up.

[Noah]

Yeah. Songwriting. You're always pulling from your library, you know, and you. Hopefully your library just keeps growing and growing. And the trick is, when I. When I was young, you're imitating, and then you get better at finding. When you find your own voice, and then you're just sort of taking cues from your library. You're not copying anybody, but you're. You're going, oh, that's interesting. That kind of reminds me of this. Let's, you know, make it our own.

[Drew Holcomb]

And the people that you've mentioned who are important influences for you, we just mentioned. We talked before about. Oh, about Paul Simon. I'm curious, what's the thread that links and Also, Tom. I know that Tom Petty is someone that has had an influence. What's the thread that links these influences?

[Noah]

I think all those songwriters, I don't know if there's. If there's actually a. A perfect common thread between them, but something about all those song. All those artists, they made records that really connected with me and helped me sort of see the world, if you will, and help me feel the world. And that's the beauty of music, is there's a bit of magic to it, and I'm sure there's scientific and sociological ways to explain them. I'm not really interested necessarily in hearing them because I like the magic of it. I like the myth that I don't know why this record speaks to me so much, but when I hear, you know, Tom Petty's Wildflowers, and I. I hear. All I have to hear is, you.

[Unknown]

Belong among the wildflowers. You belong in a boat out at sea.

[Noah]

That in and of itself is just a beautiful sentiment, you know, executed with this. You know, the arrangement, the sonic sort of landscape of it. None of the artists that I love seem to sort of play by a certain formula. Maybe they do sometimes on certain songs or certain records. But Tom Petty is a great example. If you look at his. Sort of the arc of his career and listen to the records, they don't all sound the same. There's, you know, different producers have sort of different eras and fingerprints on his. On his work. Jeff Lynn stuff is different than the Jimmy Ovine stuff, and I like that, that they're always looking for something else to say, something else to sing, some new way to express human experience via music and instruments and electricity and all this stuff that makes. This makes it work.

[Drew Holcomb]

I asked you to sing one cover.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Drew Holcomb]

Tell me what you chose and why.

[Noah]

I. Well, I did. I chose this song because you. You and I connected over the song back when we met in April. And I just saw this artist play at the Ryman, which is a. My favorite venue in the world, and in serious underplay for him. The last time I saw him in Nashville was at the Bridgestone Arena. He then he retired, and now he's come out of retirement to do these intimate acoustic shows. I know that you have interacted with him a ton, and I've heard nothing but great things about him personally. And I think this is one of the great songs. I also think it has what I consider the best first line of a song that I can. That I've ever heard. So this is. This is Paul Simon's America.

[Unknown]

Let us be lovers we'll marry our fortunes together I've got some real estate here in my bag so I bought a pack of cigarettes Mrs. Wagner pies and walked off to look for America Kathy, I said as we boarded a Greyhound in Pittsburgh Michigan seems like a dream to me now it took me four days to hitchhike from Saginaw I've gone to look for America Laughing on a bus Playing games with their faces she says the man in the gabardine suit is a spy I said, be careful, his bow tie is really a camera well, toss me a cigarette. I've got one here in my raincoat no, we smoked the last one an hour ago. Well, I looked at the scenery.

[Noah]

She.

[Unknown]

Read her magazine as the moon rose over and over Open field well, Kathy, I'm lost I said Though I knew she was sleeping I'm empty and aching and I don't know why Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike They've all gone to look for America all gone to look for America We've all gone to look for America Let us be lovers we'll marry our fortunes together.

[Drew Holcomb]

That was beautiful.

[Noah]

Thank you.

[Drew Holcomb]

You said his concert at the Ryman.

[Noah]

That you saw earlier this year, as in, it was. Actually, this was really sweet for me personally, but we played two nights at the Ryman on May 2nd and 3rd, and then he played three nights at the Ryman, May, like 12th, 13th and 14th. And I got to sit and watch a show right after I'd played there and to see one of my heroes in the same spot that I was in eight days earlier. And he had the same reverence for the room that I always have. And it was. It was a bit of an emotional and joyous and overwhelming experience. And he. He did two sets. He did the seven Hymns record from front to back, and then he came out and did sort of all the songs that you would want expect to hear in the second set. And it was just a. Yeah, it was wonderful.

[Drew Holcomb]

So you were in the middle. You were in the middle of writing a song about Cormac McCarthy.

[Noah]

Oh, yeah, I was.

[Drew Holcomb]

Tell me how that came about and where you are in that song.

[Noah]

Cormac McCarthy is one of my favorite authors. Southern Gothic, dark, violent, End of the world, apocalypse, human sort of morality play author. Right. Very sparse. And no Country For Old Men, all the Pretty Horses, the Road, so many great books that turned into great films, et cetera. So he actually grew up in Knoxville, Tennessee, which is where I went to school. But he had. He left there and lived all over. But it sort of landed in the desert in Santa Fe, El Paso, somewhere in there. Unrelated to that seemingly was, I love old cars. And so I get this email from a company that auctions old cars just because I love to look at them. And I get this email in April, early April. It says, Cormac McCarthy's Ferrari. It's being auctioned off. And so it kind of like blew a fuse in me because I'm like, Cormac McCarthy didn't drive a Ferrari this, like. Sure, he. He actually did. He drove this black Ferrari.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah.

[Noah]

In the last years of his life. And so I had this idea of like writing a song, Cory McCarthy's Black Ferrari. But I couldn't quite find the end, you know, Couldn't find the end. But I thought, no, I want to. I want to drive Cormac McCarthy's black Ferrari through the desert and like. And have a complete existential crisis.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah.

[Noah]

And I feel like everybody right now is sort of. We sort of live inside of existential crisis. That's like going to be the era that we live in. We look back on it, we're like, that's the era of the existential crisis. There's just so much happening at such a speed that it's hard to keep up and it's hard to know how to. Where to put your anger and where to put your joy and how to live. And I thought one of the ways it would help me is if I had Cory McCarthy's black Ferrari for a day. So I wrote this song and first person I sent it to was you because we had talked about that interview.

[Drew Holcomb]

I love old cars too.

[Noah]

Yeah. And we also, we connect over old cars. And I was like, I. Yeah. So I've never played this song before, except for during soundcheck. So this is, this is a debut and I really like this song. And if you don't like it, I don't really care that much because I like it a lot. So let's see if I can remember how to.

[Unknown]

Walking on the sidewalk through my neighborhood My neighbor's black cat is up to no good there's something in the air, something in the streets Like a red tailed hawk waiting up in the trees there's levees and tolls and roadblocks and speed bumps has it been a day, a week or just a month? Unwanted packages by the front door screen an empty pages in my diary Cormac McCarthy's got a black Ferrari that he drives across the desert on a Sunday morning and I'm dreaming about the wind in my face Nothing but my worn out suitcase Driving that Ferrari like Cormac Carthy in my mind in my mind A fiasco falls like rain on our faces A Mickey Mantle rookie card ruined in the basement Nothing turns out like you thought it would It's a little more barefoot than Hollywood. It's confusing the losing, the boozing, excusing the stage fright and all the troubleshooting where do I fit amongst all the matter in this party Always feels like a lost Soul's gathering Cormac McCarthy's got a black Ferrari that he drives across the desert on a Sunday morning and I'm dreaming bout the wind in my face Nothing but my worn out suit Driving that Ferrari like Cormac McCarthy in my mind in my mind Engine and fuel and paint and chrome Muscle and blood and skin and bone Engine and fuel and paint and chrome Muscle and blood and skin and bones Cormac McCarthy's got a black Ferrari that he drives across the desert on a Sunday morning and I'm dreaming bout the wind in my face Nothing but a worn out suitcase Driving that Ferrari like Cormac McCarthy in my mind in my mind in my mind I'm driving correct these black Ferrari in my mind.

[Drew Holcomb]

I love that.

[Noah]

Thank you.

[Drew Holcomb]

Why you said you couldn't figure out how to. Couldn't figure out your way in. What did you mean by that?

[Noah]

Well, I had this. This like. Obviously the phrase and the rhyme. Cory McCarthy's black Ferrari was like this song gonna be like a. A funny song about how could this maudlin writer have such a, you know, cultural toy like this? This doesn't make sense to me. To me should be a piece of.

[Drew Holcomb]

Old Chevy pickup, right?

[Noah]

Yeah, that's. That's like. That's the imagination, right? It's not. Not that he had this car. So it's like a Magnum PI Car, you know. And so then I was like, no, that's not the right frame. Because what I felt when I saw that, that existed as a fan of his work and as. Also as someone who would like to have a 1989 Testarossa just for a day even, was that. No, even the saddest, most sort of gothic, you know, the chronicler of American violence needed an escape. And so he had this black Ferrari and he would just go. I'd imagine him smiling, driving 120 miles an hour across the desert in Santa Fe. And there's not a picture in the world that exists of Cory McCarthy smiling.

[Drew Holcomb]

No.

[Noah]

And so I relate to that. I relate to feeling the weight Of. Of, you know, life and all of its, like, joys and tragedies and that sometimes the simple pleasure might make it go away for a minute.

[Drew Holcomb]

Has that. That song as it stands now, have you worked on that with the band, or is that all you at this point?

[Noah]

Well, they've heard it, but we haven't. No, we wait till we all get in the room together before we sort of dive into it.

[Drew Holcomb]

But. Yeah. What will happen to it when the. When you all dive in?

[Noah]

I don't know. I mean, we'll. We'll go through several itinerations. First thing we'll do is we'll make sure we're in the right key. We'll do some practical things, make sure. In the right key, figure out the tempo, and then we'll sort of jump into the approach. You know, like, what are the drums going to be doing? Are we. Are we. Is this acoustic sort of. Is that the main engine driver of the song? Or are we going to do, like, a piano, bass, drums thing? And then, you know, just kind of, like, try a bunch of different things, and then inevitably one of them, all five of us will go, that's it. That's the. That's the approach. Time.

[Drew Holcomb]

Yeah. It's a really beautiful song.

[Noah]

Thank you.

[Drew Holcomb]

Thank you, Drew. I think we're. I think our time is.

[Noah]

I have no idea how much time we. We've been up for a while, though.

[Drew Holcomb]

We've been up here a while.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Drew Holcomb]

I feel people lurking. How should we end this?

[Noah]

I don't know.

[Drew Holcomb]

Am I being presumptuous if I ask you to play one more song?

[Noah]

Sure, sure. I'll play a song I wrote. There's a wonderful band in Nashville that has toured for many years called Old Crow Medicine Show. My kids go to school with some of Kesha's kids, who's the lead singer and writer. And this is a great Nashville story. We're dropping our kids off at school. He's like, what are you up to this week? And I said, I'm just gonna be in my office doing some writing and working. And he said, we should write a song this week. We'd never written a song together before. And so I said, well, how about tomorrow morning? So the next morning, we drop our kids off, we get coffee by 8:30, we're writing songs. And we wrote this song about 10:30 that morning. We both had just gotten back into doing normal shows again with live audiences, and we had really missed that.

[Drew Holcomb]

This is such a fantastic. Only a Nashville Story.

[Noah]

Yeah, it is. It is. And Then it was a great. It was a great song for me. It ended up being. It's the song. It's called Dance With Everybody. And it ended up getting picked up by the NCAA for two years straight as a theme song for March Madness, which, a, song's not about basketball, and B, I am, like, one of the world's worst basketball players and a big family of athletes. And so it brought me a lot of satisfaction that my song I was in, I got to participate in March Madness. None of my athletic six, three cousins did. So.

[Unknown]

You walked into this room, you hardly knew anyone. Sea full of strangers Just crashing on the rungs when the band strikes by the end of the night Strangers no more I want to dance with everybody who came through that door Whether you came here to party or you came here to cry Whether to meet somebody, cheat somebody get low or get high so come on, all you people with two feet on your floor I want to dance with everybody who came through that door what? Whoa Let it all go Whoa Shake up your soul Throw your hands in the air Throw your hat in the ring Throw your hips and your heart into everything get lost in the crowd get down on the floor I want to dance with everybody who came through that door welcome all you saints and sinners Poets, prophets and fools all you cowboys, tricksters, hipsters Trying so hard to be cool all you dreamers and schemers Thirsty for more I want to dance with everybody who came through that door Whoa Let it all go Whoa Shake up your soul Throw your hands in the air Throw your hat in the ring Throw your hips and your heart into everything get lost in the crowd get down on the floor I want to dance with everybody who came through that door oh, hey oh, hey oh, hey well, let's put aside our differences we'll lace up our shoes let's narrow the distance between me and you Meet me in the middle let's quit keeping score I wanna dance with everybody who came through that door Whoa Let it all go Whoa, whoa Shake up your soul Throw your hands in the air Throw your hat in the ring Throw your hips and your heart into everything Turn the world on a string Turn the winds on a dime Turn the wheel to the west and the water to wind get lost in the crowd get down on the floor I want to dance with everybody Everybody who came through that door I want to dance with everybody who came through that door Whoa.

[Drew Holcomb]

Thank you so much, Drew. Thank you all. This episode of Broken Record is produced by Leah Rose and Nina Byrd Lawrence, with Ben Nadaff Haffrey and Lucy Sullivan. Our engineers are Nina Byrd Lawrence, Sarah Bruguer and Ben Tolliday. Marketing by Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our executive producers are Jacob Smith and Justin Richmond. Special thanks to Way24, to Eloise Linton, and to the whole crew over at the Cherry Lane Theater. My name is Malcolm Gabo.

[Manny]

Why are TSA rules so confusing?

[Noah]

You got a hoodie, y'. All? Take it off.

[Manny]

I'm Manny. I'm Noah. This is Dou, and we're best friends and journalists with a new podcast called no Such Thing, where we get to the bottom of questions like that. Why are you screaming? I can't expect what to do now. If the rule was the same, go off on me.

[Noah]

I deserve it, you know? Lock him up.

[Manny]

Listen to no Such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Noah]

No Such Thing.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime on the new podcast, America's Crime Lab. Every case has a story to tell, and the DNA holds the truth.

[Noah]

He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. This technology's already solving so many cases.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.