Encore: Good Old Boys

Summary

Revisionist History - Episode: "Encore: Good Old Boys"

Release Date: July 24, 2025
Host: Pushkin Industries

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Introduction: Revisiting Randy Newman’s Masterpiece

In this compelling episode of Revisionist History, Malcolm Gladwell delves deep into Randy Newman’s controversial and thought-provoking album, Good Old Boys. Gladwell describes the album as “one of the most remarkable albums of its era” and emphasizes its unsettling nature, believing that such a work couldn’t be produced in today’s musical landscape. He sets out to create a listener’s guide to Newman’s enigmatic masterpiece, intertwining historical context, personal anecdotes, and critical analysis.

Malcolm Gladwell (00:03:55): “Good Old Boys is not an album you can hear just once and hope to do it justice. Because it's not just remarkable, it's unsettling.”

Randy Newman: The Genius Behind the Characters

Gladwell introduces Randy Newman as a multifaceted songwriter known for his ability to write in character. Newman creates narrators that embody specific personas, allowing him to explore complex social and political themes through music. Good Old Boys features Johnny Cutler, a fictional steelworker from Birmingham, Alabama, whose songs reflect the tensions and challenges of the American South during the civil rights movement.

Malcolm Gladwell (00:04:22): “Newman is unusual among songwriters because he writes in character. And the narrator of Good Old Boys is a creation of Newman’s.”

Lester Maddox: From Restaurateur to Governor

The narrative takes a historical turn as Gladwell introduces Lester Maddox, the real-life inspiration behind many of Johnny Cutler’s songs. Maddox, a staunch segregationist and former governor of Georgia (1967-1971), became infamous for his defiance against the civil rights movement. His restaurant, Pickrick, became a battleground for racial tensions, embodying the resistance against integration.

Jim Brown (00:09:37): “I named my restaurant Pick Rick. And that’s why it was named Pick Rick.”

The Clash on Dick Cavett’s Show

One of the pivotal moments discussed is Maddox’s appearance on The Dick Cavett Show, a prominent late-night talk show of the 1970s. Inviting Maddox provided a platform for his segregationist views, leading to a tense and dramatic confrontation with Jim Brown, a celebrated African American football player. This exchange starkly highlighted the deep-seated racial animosities and the media’s role in amplifying contentious voices.

Malcolm Gladwell (00:27:35): “Exactly what you would think… Governor Maddox storms off the stage.”

"Rednecks": A Song of Satire and Controversy

Newman’s song “Rednecks” serves as a centerpiece in the episode, offering a scathing critique of Southern racism. The song juxtaposes cheerful melodies with biting, offensive lyrics, forcing listeners to confront uncomfortable truths about racial prejudices. Despite its controversial content, "Rednecks" gained popularity among Southern audiences, who misinterpreted its satirical intent, leading Newman to cease performing it due to its misuse as a segregationist anthem.

Malcolm Gladwell (00:36:08): “He's a jaw drop. It's like springtime for Hitler in a way.”

Randy Newman (00:38:45): “I played it in Lafayette, Louisiana, and they loved it. It made him very uncomfortable.”

Media’s Role and Ethical Implications

Gladwell critically examines the decision to give Lester Maddox a platform on a mainstream talk show, questioning the ethical responsibilities of media outlets in hosting divisive figures. Drawing parallels to contemporary scenarios, such as the invitation of Steve Bannon to high-profile events despite widespread criticism, Gladwell underscores the potential harm in amplifying extremist voices without providing proper context or challenge.

Malcolm Gladwell (00:27:52): “What’s the point of giving someone like that a platform? What could possibly be learned from listening to them talk?”

Randy Newman’s Perspective and Legacy

Throughout the episode, Newman’s insights illuminate his commitment to addressing uncomfortable societal issues through his art. His reluctance to sanitize his messages, even when faced with misinterpretation, underscores his dedication to authenticity and social critique. Newman's interactions and reactions to the misuse of his work highlight the complexities artists face when their creations intersect with real-world ideologies and movements.

Randy Newman (00:35:08): “I am, yeah. It seemed like half an hour, you know, where they were just yelling and yelling and yelling.”

Conclusion: The Enduring Impact of Good Old Boys

Gladwell concludes by reflecting on the enduring relevance of Good Old Boys, emphasizing its role in challenging listeners to grapple with America’s racial history honestly. By dissecting the album’s nuanced narratives and the historical figures it portrays, the episode invites audiences to reconsider preconceived notions and acknowledge the complexities of cultural and social identity.

Malcolm Gladwell (00:41:09): “Lester Maddox listened to a song about racial hatred and he sent the man who wrote it a pick handle as a token of his gratitude.”

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Notable Quotes:

• Malcolm Gladwell (02:37): “Wait, can I prevail on you to just do a little bit of Marie?”

• Jim Brown (08:22): “See, to pick me so fastidiously to pick out, to choose or select. And Rick means to pile up, to heap or to mass.”

• Lester Maddox (12:36): “I’ll use axe handles, I’ll use guns. I’ll use paint. I’ll use my fists. I’ll use my customers, I’ll use my employees.”

• Jim Brown (26:17): “A segregationist is a person that loves his race enough or other races enough, has enough racial pride and integrity to want to preserve them.”

• Truman Capote (27:35): “I think what we're really talking about in this country is economic development of black people.”

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Insights and Reflections:

• Satire as a Tool for Social Critique: Newman’s use of satire in Good Old Boys serves as a powerful lens to examine and critique institutional racism and societal norms.

• Media Responsibility: The episode raises critical questions about the media’s role in giving platforms to divisive figures and the potential consequences of such actions.

• Artistic Integrity vs. Public Reception: Newman’s experience highlights the tension between an artist’s intent and the audience’s interpretation, especially when addressing sensitive topics.

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Conclusion:

Revisionist History’s episode "Encore: Good Old Boys" masterfully intertwines music, history, and media studies to offer a profound examination of Randy Newman’s Good Old Boys. Through meticulous storytelling and insightful analysis, Malcolm Gladwell not only sheds light on a pivotal cultural artifact but also encourages listeners to engage in deeper reflections on race, media influence, and the enduring power of music as a catalyst for social change.

Transcript

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

Pushkin this episode contains explicit Language There are all kinds of reasons for wanting to do a podcast episode. You want to tell a specific story, you want to make an argument, make sense of a particularly powerful piece of tape. But the simplest, and let's be honest, the most selfish reason is that you want an excuse to hang out with someone you love. And this was the origin of the Randy Newman episode. I am one of the very large group of music lovers who think that Randy Newman is a genius and that his best albums like Sail Away or Good Old Boys are basically as good as pop music ever gets. So I tracked him down, actually, to his son. Thanks Amos Booked a flight to Los Angeles and on the plane ride asked myself, okay, of all the million things I could possibly talk to Randy Newman about, what would make for the best story? And somewhere over, I'm sure, Nebraska, I realized, oh, it's obvious I need to talk to him about his song Rednecks. And so I did. And if you're listening, Randy, and you want to have me over again, just say the word. In the fall of 1974, the musician Randy Newman released an album called Good Old Boys. The most beautiful song on the record is the third song on the first side. Wait, can I prevail on you to just do a little bit of Marie?

[Randy Newman]

Sure.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I love that song so much.

[Randy Newman]

Well, thank you very much. You look like a princess. Night we met with your hair Part of life I will never forget.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History My podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is about Randy Newman's Good Old Boys, one of the most remarkable albums of its era. I listened to it for the first time years ago, but then I happened to listen to it again very recently and realized that Good Old Boys is not an album you can hear just once and hope to do it justice. Because it's not just remarkable, it's unsettling. I don't think an album like this could be made today. And by the end of this episode, I suspect you'll agree with me. I decided to go to California, sit down with Randy Newman, and create a listener's guide to one of the most perplexing works of music that I have ever encountered.

[Randy Newman]

I'm drunk right now, baby But I've.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Got to be.

[Randy Newman]

I never could tell.

[Lester Maddox]

You what you mean to me.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I.

[Randy Newman]

Loved you the first time I saw.

[Lester Maddox]

You.

[Randy Newman]

And I always loved you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Newman is in his 70s, still writing music. Tall and slightly intimidating, he's Hollywood royalty. His uncle Alfred was a composer who was nominated for an Academy Award 44 times, won nine times. Newman has had a second career writing for the movies as well. Like you've Got a Friend in me for Toy Story, Newman is unusual among songwriters because he writes in character. And the narrator of Good Old Boys is a creation of Newman's. He's called Johnny Cutler, a steel worker from Birmingham, Alabama, 30 years old. The song Marie is about Johnny Cutler coming home late after a night out with the boys and gazing love struck at his sleeping wife.

[Randy Newman]

I like the idea very much about being inarticulate without. That's not the right word in articulate, but being unable to have the words unless you drink something, you know, I can't say this to you and maybe to lack the ability to say those.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Kind of words, but he's the fact that he has been drinking and he. And you realize he can only say what he's saying because he's drunk and because she's asleep.

[Randy Newman]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But that even. That makes me. Humanizes him and even more. I sort of feel so deeply love, sir.

[Randy Newman]

I mean, it would seem that that isn't drink, but it might be. Is this a good guy? And my answer to that is I don't know. I mean, I'm suspicious of. Of this. Oh, I'm drunk right now, baby. But when I'm awake, I might knock the shit out of you sometimes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Randy Newman wrote Marie. He created Johnny Cutler. He dreamt up a beautiful love song for him, but he doesn't know if he understands him or even if he likes him. As if Johnny Cutler came from his imagination, but is now somehow independent of it. It makes you wonder who's in charge of this song.

[Lester Maddox]

Sometimes I'm crazy but I guess you know I'm weak and I'm lazy and I hurt you so I never listen to what you say when you come to me in trouble darling, I just turn away But I love you and I loved you the first time I saw you and I always will love you Marie.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The story behind Good Old Boys begins with a man named Lester Maddox. Maddox was governor of Georgia from 1967 to 1971. Now he's mostly forgotten, but in his day he was notorious.

[Jim Brown]

I think you're supposed to act for real. I don't look at myself as one of the very smart people, so I try to act like Lester Maddox. Like inside I feel and think and believe.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Maddox grew up in the Depression in Atlanta. His father was an alcoholic.

[Jim Brown]

My dad never made hardly any money. We times we didn't even have a bathroom in the house. We had four rooms and a path rather than four rooms and a bath and we didn't have electricity.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Maddox dropped out of high school, got a job as a steel worker to help support his five younger siblings, married his childhood sweetheart, Virginia, and after the war he started a diner near Georgia Tech. The house specialty was skillet fried chicken. He called his place the Pickrick.

[Jim Brown]

So I wanted a name no one else had. And I came on the name upon the name Pickwick, and I found out really that Wick doesn't mean anything except what you know it to be. Wic. That's what Webster will even tell you, that wic. And someone had already used the name Pickwick in England, so I couldn't use that. So it was about 3 o' clock one morning. I'd been working on it for weeks.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Maddox was one of those people who you can't do a cartoon version of because he already looks like a cartoon version of himself. He's skinny, with an oversized head, bald dome, black plastic glasses, always in a black suit. Moves with a kind of loose limbed floppiness like a clown. There are so many oral history interviews with Lester Maddox floating around the state of Georgia that he must have spent as many hours reminiscing about his time as governor as he actually spent serving as governor. The man liked to talk.

[Jim Brown]

See, to pick me so fastidiously to pick out, to choose or select. And Rick means to pile up, to heap or to mass. So I named my restaurant Pick Rick. And said if you'd picknick at the Pick Rick and pick it out, we would rick it up. And we would. We did. And that's why it was named Pick Rick. I've never heard anything else being named Pick Rick.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Maddox advertised the Pick Rick in the Saturday edition of the Atlanta Journal in a column with the title Pickrick says lots of one liners and Madoxisms, like the 1950s version of tweets.

[Jim Brown]

I talked about Christmas, I talked about marriage. I talked about the monkey house at Grant Park. I talked about weather. I talked about fishing and my ads.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But soon his column, Pickrick says, becomes more and more political. Because this is Atlanta in the mid-1950s, one of the birthplaces of the civil rights movement. And Pickrick is a 10 minute drive from Auburn Avenue where Martin Luther King and Andrew Young and Vernon Jordan and everyone else are starting to stir things up. And Lester Maddox is not at all happy with that. He's a segregationist. And the more strident Maddox gets in his weekly ads, the more popular Pick Rick says becomes. People start buying the Atlanta Journal on Saturday just to read what Maddox is up to. Maddox decides to run for mayor of Atlanta. He has no organization, no money. He drives himself around and he loses. But the race is closer than you'd think. So he runs again and loses. And runs a third time and loses. But then the wave of desegregation protests hits Atlanta in the early 1960s. The public schools are integrated first, then the lunch counters, then the restaurants. And since the Pitt Rick restaurant does not admit black people, the civil rights protesters come knocking.

[Jim Brown]

Well, the first time I was about.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To.

[Jim Brown]

Four whites and three blacks came in, and Virginia and I were about to eat our lunch on Saturday afternoon. They told me what they were going to do, and I told them, you're not going to do any such things.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

What they were going to do was eat at Pickrick with a television camera as witness.

[Jim Brown]

I said, you never been here before. You just want to fuss and fight. So I grabbed two of them. I think one of them was John Lewis or Brown or somebody. And I just about had them out the door when they happened to remember they're supposed to lay down on the floor. If you hadn't thought about that, I'd had them both out and they got on the floor. I couldn't drag them. So I called my black employees out of the kitchen and I said, these people trying to destroy our business. They don't want to eat with us. They just want to create a problem. They got the television, radio, and Everyone with them. And I said, I'm going to give you $10 for each one of them you throw out in the next 30 seconds.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Maddox's employees threw them out, but the protesters came back. This time, Maddox met them at the door with the television cameras rolling and a crowd starting to gather.

[Jim Brown]

I don't own this property. You're not going to ever eat here. Now you want, what is the quote?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

There's Maddox in front of the Pick Rick with his black suit and bald head. Protesters shouting, cameras all around. He's in heaven.

[Jim Brown]

I'll use axe handles, I'll use guns. I'll use paint. I'll use my fists. I'll use my customers, I'll use my employees. I'll use anything at my disposal. This property belongs to me, my wife and my children. It doesn't belong to anybody else. I'll throw out a white one or a black one or a red headed one or a bald headed one. It doesn't make any difference.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Maddox gets hauled into court because the Civil Rights act has been passed and what he's doing is illegal. He's given a integrate or shut his doors. And he decides to shut the Pick Rick. One of the most popular and successful restaurants in Atlanta. The business that he has spent his lifetime building, that made him famous. And to every Southerner angry at the way the world is turning, he becomes a hero. A friend says to him, you know, maybe you should run for governor. And Maddox says, okay. And in 1966, he wins. A white nationalist in the hospitality business who came to public attention writing pithy, politically charged statements in a widely read media forum, runs against the political establishment and pulls off an upset victory. And by the way, it's a very close race. Maddox doesn't actually get as many votes as his opponent, but he wins when the election is thrown to the legislature. Oh, and a huge part of Maddox's rhetoric is how the media can't be trusted. He's constantly accusing newspapers of lying about him. In fact, in the corner of his official governor's portrait, there's a little table with a dead fish on it, wrapped in a copy of the Atlanta Journal. A white nationalist in the hospitality business who wrote pithy statements on a media platform, runs against the political establishment, accuses the news media of running fake news about him, doesn't get as many votes as his opponent, and nonetheless takes over the highest executive office. I mean, when does that ever happen? Maddox serves four years, has to step down because of term limits. Jimmy Carter takes over as governor of Georgia as the State, you might say, returns to its senses and Maddox consoles himself with running for and winning the job of Lieutenant Governor. He is well on his way to obscurity and then he gets a call from New York from the Dick Cavett show, the great late night talk show of the 1970s. They want him as a guest. That's when.

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[Lester Maddox]

In America. You get food to eat, won't have to run through the jungle and scuff.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Up your feet the first Randy Newman Song I Ever Heard With Sail Away.

[Lester Maddox]

You just sing about Jesus and drink wine all day. It's great to be an American.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Sail Away is the title track of the album Randy Newman made right before he wrote Good Old Boys. I was a kid when I first heard it, and I had the same experience I would later have with Newman's other songs. I didn't get it at first. I'm not sure I even paid attention to the words. I just loved how grand it was.

[Lester Maddox]

Ain't no lion a tiger, Ain't no mama snake Just a sweet watermelon in a buckwheat cake Everybody is as happy as a man can be Climber boy, little wog stayed away with me but.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Then I got a little older and as I heard Sail Away I said wait a minute Everybody is as happy as a man can be Climb aboard little wog, sail away with me really offensive British colonial slang for someone who's not white. It's the N word, basically. I noticed some interesting story behind Sail Away, the song.

[Randy Newman]

Oh, it was A guy was going to make a movie and he was going to give 10 minutes to five or six pop people. Van Morrison, I remember. And Hendrix to do 10 minute thing. And I came up with this thing. It had a sort of a sea shanty before it, you know, very Irish kind of yo ho, you know, there and then this guy be standing in a clearing in the jungle and singing this song. And that was what I was going to do with my 10 minutes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Randy Newman wrote a song about an American slave trader standing somewhere in West Africa giving his sales pitch to potential recruits. Come to America. You're going to love this little cotton plantation that I've lined up for you.

[Randy Newman]

Ain't no lion a tiger Ain't no mama snake Just a sweet watermelon. In the book, you know, it's a nose laugh.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. The character is so kind of outrageous.

[Randy Newman]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That. But we're not laughing along with him. We're horrified by him. I mean, it's.

[Randy Newman]

Yeah, but people laugh at that in a nervous way at the watermelon joke and sit around, think about Jesus, drink wine all day.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Now there's a way to do that song so that it's not so shocking. Like the COVID version done later the same year by Bobby Darin, who was one of the biggest pop stars of the 1960s, won't have to run through the jungle.

[Randy Newman]

Bobby Darren is happy.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Randy Newman]

Come to America, little one. You know, they got rid of the wad.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, my God. But. Oh, that's. That's like blasphemy.

[Jim Brown]

Climb aboard, little one and sail away with me.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

In Bobby Darin's version, the line, climb aboard, little wog, Sail away with me, which is crucial in establishing how vile the narrator is, becomes, climb aboard, little one Sail away with me. I'm sorry, I can't get past this so quickly. That's unbelievable.

[Randy Newman]

Betty did a happy version.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yes. It's this.

[Randy Newman]

It isn't. I mean, there it is.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The thing is, Newman liked Bobby Darin. He knew him, and he didn't know what to think. I mean, there is a world of difference between wog and one. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Bobby Darin substitutes the words mamba snake with mama snake. Ain't no lions and tigers and no nurturing mama snake.

[Randy Newman]

You know, he was. Oh, I'll do. I like to do that. And it's like, come to America, you know.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But this is. This. This song is like.

[Randy Newman]

This is not a dumb guy either.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is. This song is like a. It is a wallop. It is emotional wallop. Just a searing song about this, the darkest moment in America's past.

[Randy Newman]

It's a jaw drop. It's like springtime for Hitler in a way. Little one, poor little one. Come away with me, you know, just was so bright. His chauvinist instincts couldn't restrain himself.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

How did you feel when you first heard that version?

[Randy Newman]

I felt, you know, oh, my. Jesus Christ. And that was it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The original intention of Sail Away was to make the listener uncomfortable. Newman takes a familiar figure, a salesman, an entrepreneur, a patriot, and gives him a rollicking sea shanty. But then he forces you to acknowledge that underneath all that there lurks a monster. Bobby Darin chickened out. He couldn't do it. He didn't want us to be uncomfortable. And so Wog became one and Sail Away became a glorified nursery rhyme. I don't mean to single Bobby Darin out because I think that most of us take the easy path in these situations too. But the particular genius of Randy Newman is, is that he won't do that. He can't.

[Jim Brown]

The Dick Cabot show.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So it's 1970. Lester Maddox gets a call from Dick Cabot come on our show. He flies to New York. And who tunes in that night? Randy Newman.

[Jim Brown]

Ladies and gentlemen, Dick Cabot.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Dick Cavett is a year into his legendary late night show on abc, up against Johnny Carson's Tonight Show. Cavett's show was like a highlight reel of the 1970s. He did the greatest ever interview with Jimi Hendrix. Groucho Marx was a regular. So was Muhammad Ali. He once had Salvador Dali on the same show as the legendary pitching great Satchel Page. The famous debate between Gore Vidal and Norman Mailer that was on Dick Cavett.

[Dick Cavett]

Listen, we have a very good show tonight and I want to move right into it. An excellent show, I think. I don't know. How do I know? I haven't seen it. It might be a big dud for all I know. Why do people say that at the beginning of a show?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Cavett looks like Paul Newman's baby brother. No more than 5 foot 6, impish, big polka dotted tie. His first guest is a woman named Alice Gray and an entomologist from the American Museum of Natural History. Cat, eyeglasses, hair in a bun. Who brings a box full of cockroaches to the set.

[Dick Cavett]

What can we do about them? What can we learn about them? Are they our friends?

[Jim Brown]

No, they're not exactly our friends, but they are certainly our companions in.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

All.

[Jim Brown]

Our doings and I'm rather fond of them. They have a distinguished lineage. How many of us could meet our ancestors of 300 million years ago. And recognize them, the cockroaches.

[Dick Cavett]

Can they go back that far?

[Jim Brown]

They go back that far.

[Dick Cavett]

That's older than the dinosaurs.

[Jim Brown]

Twice as old as the dinosaurs. All the way back to the coal age, they were already recognizably cockroaches.

[Dick Cavett]

That's amazing. It's always the people you don't like who are the last to leave, isn't it?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

How true.

[Jim Brown]

They'll be here long after we have quitted this earth. I'm sure.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Cavett does a good 10 minutes.

[Dick Cavett]

Are these your cockroaches or some of ours?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The cockroach lady finally leaves the stage.

[Dick Cavett]

And then my next guest tonight is Governor Lester Maddox.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Out comes Maddox, the gleaming bald head, the black suit.

[Dick Cavett]

Governor Maddox. I still call you Governor, don't I?

[Jim Brown]

Call me most anything you want to. Everybody else does. Dip your septic.

[Dick Cavett]

Have you ever followed bugs before?

[Jim Brown]

Yes, a few moments ago on your program.

[Dick Cavett]

That's the only time.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's the only time. God, I love Dick Cavett. They shake hands, they take their seats. Rust colored swivel loungers atop a gray shag carpet. Cavett shows the audience a photograph of Maddox holding his axe handle outside the Pick Rick restaurant. And Maddox then corrects him and says, no, it's not an axe handle, it's a pick handle, and goes off on one of his long, endless digressions about the meaning of the Pick Rick, the.

[Jim Brown]

Pick denotes hard work. And we had in the restaurant some of these pick handles. Two kegs of them by a big old fireplace where we burned hickory wood. There were six of them in each of the kegs and they were dark red because that was the. It looked something similar to a chicken leg. A pick handle does not like the axe handle that the news media talks about.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And Cavett, who must be wondering what on earth, simply says, well, I've certainly learned a lot. Cavett brings on his next guest, the football player Jim Brown, then one of the most famous professional black athletes in the country. Brown settles down next to Maddox, who is literally half his size, and gives him a polite smile. And Cavett says to the two of.

[Dick Cavett]

Them, do you feel separate?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I realize that's 1960s civil rights humor, but I still think it's hilarious. Maddox turns to Brown and says, I thought you was the singer. He thought Jim Brown was James Brown. He then volunteers his personal definition of what being a segregationist really means.

[Jim Brown]

A segregationist is a person that loves his race enough or other races enough, has enough racial pride and integrity to want to preserve them, and I Think a racist is one that doesn't care enough for his race or another race to where they would don't care whether they're amalgamated or destroyed or not amalgamated.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Good Lord. Now think about this for a moment. Maddox is no longer governor. Georgia has come to its senses and elected nice, safe, modern, non racist Jimmy Carter. Maddox is a footnote. So what point is there in having him on a mainstream talk show like Dick Cavett? The magazine where I work, the New Yorker, had a case like this recently. Donald Trump's Svengali, Steve Bannon, was invited to speak at the magazine's annual literary festival, and everyone flipped out. The New Yorker's writers took to Twitter, a bunch of high profile celebrity invitees to the festival dropped out. And the argument that was made about Bannon is an argument that could as easily have been applied to Maddox years ago. What's the point of giving someone like that a platform? I mean, what could possibly be learned from listening to them talk? And sure enough, what happens over the course of the next hour of the Dick Cavett Show? Exactly what you would think.

[Truman Capote]

I think what we're really talking about in this country is economic development of black people.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

At one point, Jim Brown says something thoughtful and reasonable, that he thinks the priority for black people ought to be economic development. And Maddox jumps on him.

[Jim Brown]

Economic development. All people.

[Truman Capote]

Well, we're talking about how come you're just black people?

[Jim Brown]

How come you don't do it for black people? How come you don't want to do it for white people?

[Truman Capote]

I'll tell you why.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Huh?

[Truman Capote]

I'll tell you why.

[Jim Brown]

How come you don't do it for everybody? How come you're always black people? Talk about all people.

[Truman Capote]

Can I give you an answer?

[Dick Cavett]

I think we understand the question.

[Truman Capote]

Can I give you an answer? Do you mind?

[Jim Brown]

No, go ahead. If you're ready, I'll give you time.

[Truman Capote]

Okay. Governor, what I'm really saying is that there are some people that have suffered in this country, poor people generally. But let's say that we have various ethnic groups in this country that have attained a certain kind of equality. Black people are more or less, along with the Indians, on the last rung of the ladder. Can I finish, Governor Foy? Can I finish? Okay. Do you mind? Now, what I'm really saying is that I feel that the way to bring about equality of black people in this.

[Jim Brown]

System is through equality white people. Now, I won't interrupt you every time you keep calling black people. What about equality of all people?

[Truman Capote]

If you interrupt me, Governor, I can't Talk to you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Then Maddox starts going on and on about all the things he's done for black people in the state of Georgia. And Jim Brown turns to him with genuine curiosity and asks if he's had any blowback from white bigots, from the.

[Jim Brown]

Bigots in the south, have any problems.

[Truman Capote]

With that from the white bigots, because you did so much for the black man.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Which is kind of a great question, because if Maddox has, in fact, been this great friend of black people, then you'd think he would have angered all the hardcore segregationists and everyone else who was opposed to the civil rights movement, right?

[Dick Cavett]

Mr. Brown asked you, Governor Maddox, if you'd had any trouble from your white admirers for the fact that you have admirers, sir. No, he said bigots.

[Jim Brown]

Well, why didn't you say it like he said, you have me there. Why didn't you say it? Now, see, that what I'm talking about.

[Dick Cavett]

Dick, I. I do see.

[Jim Brown]

You take words and you mislead the people in the audience. No, you ought to start being honest, all of you, with your words and what you're saying to people. You said admirers, and he said bigots. A lot of difference, isn't it?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The last half of the show is just Maddox getting more and more agitated, Dick Cavett trying to calm him down, and Jim Brown looking over at Maddox like he's a misbehaving child. Maddox asks Cavett to apologize. Cavett refuses. The audience makes astonished noises. Maddox stands up and starts to walk off the stage, and Cavett says, come on, sit down. Maddox says, I'll sit down when you apologize. So Cavett says, if I called any.

[Dick Cavett]

Of your admirers bigots who are not bigots, I apologize.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is insane. What was Dick Cavett thinking inviting this guy on his show?

[Jim Brown]

Why don't you apologize to people, Georgia? If those friends of mine, for calling.

[Dick Cavett]

Them bigots, I think I may.

[Jim Brown]

Either you do it. I'm gonna leave now.

[Dick Cavett]

Wait a minute.

[Jim Brown]

Wait a minute.

[Dick Cavett]

Please don't. Please.

[Jim Brown]

I'd like to ask people of Georgia. And he owes an apology, too. The only biggest that I know. Wait, now, wait.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Maddox gives Cavett an ultimatum. One minute to take it back or he'll walk out for good. At which point, Jim Brown pipes up, wait. What about me? How much time do I have? It's a circus.

[Dick Cavett]

I would say that I phrased the question in a way that was not exactly accurate in the sense that he did say bigots. Have any white bigots been upset because you have done certain things for the.

[Jim Brown]

Blacks back and said, my admirers. And you haven't apologized yet. And you got 15 seconds.

[Dick Cavett]

All right, now let me use those 15 seconds. I apologize for suggesting that a bigot would be the way of characterizing all of your admirers. Wait a minute, wait a minute. There's more time.

[Jim Brown]

Good night, sir.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And less dramatic storms off the set. Oh, oh, and I haven't even mentioned that the writer Truman Capote then shows up. He's then at the height of his celebrity. Tiny, fastidious, wearing purple tinted round sunglasses.

[Jim Brown]

You know, curiously enough, I had a cousin who lived in Atlanta that I once went to visit and who took me to this restaurant that he ran that was called Picker Rib or something like that. Well, while I stop. And he was always at the door with guns, you know, to keep any. Any sort of Negroes out of the restaurant. But I went there with this cousin of mine because it was near the campus, the college campus. And it wasn't bad, but it wasn't finger licking good.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The whole thing is so bananas that Cavett feels a need to apologize to his audience.

[Dick Cavett]

I'm sorry, the governor has left. I went outside just during the break and he's out there with his hat and coat on. And I asked him if he would please come back and use the last minutes to say whatever he would like to say because he felt that, I guess that he was insulted. I did not mean to insult him at that moment. I have to say this, and I hope I don't feel it doesn't come off sounding. I don't know what. But I found him, in spite of the fact that I would probably despise his feelings about segregation if I were actually clear on what they. What they are. A likable man. Would anyone go along with this?

[Jim Brown]

Would you agree?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No. The audience is not having it.

[Jim Brown]

Why is that?

[Dick Cavett]

What? I'm not backing down. Shut up. I'll tell you when I'm backing down.

[Jim Brown]

We'll be back after this.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It was a farce. What was the point except to allow a segregationist to play the victim? What good is there in giving someone like that a platform? Except Randy Newman was watching. Whose imagination has a mind of its own.

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

So you, were you a regular Dick Cavett watcher in those years?

[Randy Newman]

Not that I recall I was, but I would watch, you know, if I was up, I'd watch it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Randy Newman]

And I think I was usually up in those days.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And stereotypically, you are the Dick Cabot audience, right?

[Randy Newman]

I am, yeah. It seemed like half an hour, you know, where they were just yelling and yelling and yelling.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He was.

[Randy Newman]

Yeah, he was so alien that I felt sorry for him.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He didn't dismiss that whole exchange or shrug or change the channel. He reacted to it. He imagines what a supporter of Lester Maddox would think watching Lester Maddox storm off the stage.

[Jim Brown]

Now, Dick, I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna give you one minute to apologize to people. You call Dick or send Georgia, I'm gonna leave the show. Now you do whatever you want to about it.

[Dick Cavett]

Wait a minute.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He gives that imaginary supporter a name, Johnny Cutler. A home, Birmingham, Alabama. A job, steelworker. He imagines Johnny Cutler coming home one night drunk, gazing at his sleeping wife. And then he imagines him turning on the television.

[Lester Maddox]

Last night I saw estimatics on a TV show with some smart ass New York jewelry. And the Jew laughed at less thematics. And the audience laughed at less thematics too.

[Randy Newman]

On the TV show, Smart ass New York too. That's good. The audience laughs at Less Thematics too. That's pretty good.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's pretty good.

[Randy Newman]

Really. Let's go. Click a click, a clicker.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That became the first song on Good Old Boys. It's called Rednecks. When I first heard that, I didn't know Lister Maddox was. Yeah, I didn't even know that it was. But that idea of the southerner going to New York and sitting down, I'm thinking Dick Cavendish.

[Randy Newman]

Jewish too.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's great.

[Lester Maddox]

Well, he may be a fool, but he's a fool. And if they think they're better than him, they're wrong. So when I came to this park, I'd.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You want to sing along? Don't you? It's like Sail Away all over again. But then comes this.

[Lester Maddox]

We talk real funny down here. We drank too much and we laugh too loud. We're too dumb to make it in no northern town. Keeping niggers down.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's 1970. The south is in upheaval. Lester Maddox has just been humiliated by some smart ass New York Jew. What do you think Johnny Cutler's gonna say?

[Lester Maddox]

Hustlin round Atlanta in the Allegh Gator shoes. Getting drunk every weekend at the barbecues, keeping the niggers down.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

How we. How did people respond to that song at the time?

[Randy Newman]

I played it in Lafayette, Louisiana, and they loved it. I got a letter, the only one I ever got on this song from. From somebody. And he said, dear sir, I was in the audience in Lafayette when you played this song. He's a black kid. And he said, I don't know where you're coming from, but there I was and I was enjoying the concert up to then. And all of a sudden I'm sitting in the middle of 1500 white guys yelling, rednecks, we're rednecks. You know, and he said it made him very uncomfortable and he wanted to let me know, we're rednecks.

[Lester Maddox]

We're rednecks. And we don't know our ass from a hole in the ground. We're redneck.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Southern audiences started yelling for it so they could sing along with the chorus. Did it become. Was it taken over by. Didn't become a kind of southern anthem for a certain kind of. Or did.

[Randy Newman]

When I thought that that was happening, I stopped playing it. You know, in the south, he had.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To stop singing it. Many radio stations wouldn't play it. And you definitely wouldn't hear that song on the radio today. It even feels strange to play it here. We've become appropriately uncomfortable with the N word in almost any context. You can only play rednecks now if you explain where it came from and who Johnny Cutler was. But you can't not play it just because it makes you feel uncomfortable. Because Johnny Cutler in Birmingham, Alabama in 1970, absolutely wanted to keep the niggers down. And we can't gloss over that fact if we're being honest. Oh, and by the way, Johnny Cutler wasn't done down here.

[Lester Maddox]

We too ignorant to realize that the north has set the nigger free.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He then names every slum in every northern city put in a cage in.

[Lester Maddox]

Harlem, in New York City, he's free to be put in a cage. On the south side of Chicago, on the west side, and he's free to be put in a cage. And he's saying, and they put him in a cage in Huffing Cleveland, and they put him in a cage in Philmont, San Francisco, and they put him in a cage in Lenox Hill in Boston.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He says to all those smug northerners, when you drive with your windows up and your doors locked through the projects of your own inner cities, are you still sure you're better than me? You have to play that, too. Because if you're going to be honest about who Lester Maddox really was, you have to be honest about his critics, too. Did you ever hear from Lester Maddox?

[Randy Newman]

He sent me an axe handle.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He didn't. Really?

[Randy Newman]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, that's fantastic.

[Randy Newman]

From his store. He sold axe handles down there.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, pick handles. Lester Maddox listened to a song about racial hatred and he sent the man who wrote it a pick handle as a token of his gratitude. Revisionist History is Produced by Mia LaBelle and Jacob Smith with Camille Baptista. Our editor is Julia Barton. Flan Williams is our engineer. Fact checking by Beth Johnson. Original music by Luis Guerra. Special thanks to Carly Migliore, Heather Fane, Maggie Taylor, Maya Koenig, and Jacob Weisberg. Revisionist History is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Gladwell. By the way, there's a great essay on this subject in the 2014 book Let the Devil Speak by Stephen Hart. Hart writes that in Sail Away, Randy Newman showed one of America's greatest lies being crafted. In his next album, Newman would show how the lie soaked into America's bones. Comic board, Little one.

[Jim Brown]

What?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You can't.

[Randy Newman]

I think this is sort of happy. I mean, certainly the voices make it that way. You can't do it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, it's lost. All of it.

[Randy Newman]

I like that buck we take.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Like it's some kind of delicacy you're getting at this artisanal bakery. This is an I Heart podcast.