Malcolm Breaks Down the Perfect Break Up Song

Summary

Revisionist History: Malcolm Breaks Down the Perfect Break Up Song
Hosted by Pushkin Industries | Release Date: February 14, 2025

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Introduction and Special Collaboration

In this Valentine's Day special episode of Revisionist History, Malcolm Gladwell collaborates with Justin Richmond and Leah Rose, hosts of the Broken Record podcast. The episode seeks to explore the intricacies of love and break-up songs across various music genres, questioning which genre truly captures the essence of love and heartbreak.

R&B: The Quintessential Genre for Love Songs

Malcolm Gladwell opens the discussion by positing that R&B stands as the preeminent genre for love songs. He delves into the historical roots of R&B, tracing its origins back to gospel music, which centers on themes of love and devotion—albeit directed towards a higher power.

"[R&B] comes out of really, like, gospel. You know, like, gospel is about love and devotion to a higher being, to God... they just sort of sense a romantic love, so they just take God out and put in a Man, a woman, a lover."
— Malcolm Gladwell [05:22]

Justin Richmond concurs, highlighting how R&B's succinct and emotive sound makes it the go-to choice for love scenes in movies and other media. He cites classics like Sam Cooke's transformation from gospel to R&B with songs like "Lovely."

"It's like it's... it's everything. The ethereal and the theological, down to the romantic and the platonic, like it's everything."
— Justin Richmond [05:54]

The Evolution of R&B and Its Impact on Love Songs

Malcolm traces the progression of R&B, noting its continual refinement and deepening emotional resonance over the years. He references artists like Sam Cooke, whose transition from gospel to R&B exemplifies the genre's capacity to convey profound emotions.

"R and B isn't like the preeminent genre for love songs? It's like it's. It has to do with the ethereal and the theological, down to the romantic and the platonic, like it's everything."
— Malcolm Gladwell [05:54]

The conversation also touches upon iconic R&B artists such as Whitney Houston and Babyface, emphasizing their contributions to love music. Justin reminisces about an interview with Babyface, highlighting his ability to craft timeless love songs.

Interview with Babyface: Crafting the Perfect Love Song

The episode features an insightful interview with Babyface (Kenneth Edmonds), a legendary songwriter known for his work with Whitney Houston and other R&B luminaries.

Babyface shares the origins of his first love song, "Falling in Love Again," written during his high school years. He describes songwriting as a personal and emotional outlet, often inspired by his own experiences and relationships.

"It wasn't anything but that. I didn't think they were going to go anywhere. But that was the drive."
— Babyface [08:44]

He elaborates on his songwriting process, emphasizing the importance of emotion and personal experiences in crafting authentic love songs. Babyface also performed a snippet of another one of his early songs, "Sweet November," showcasing his genuine lyrical prowess.

"It was a song that was written way back then."
— Babyface [10:50]

Justin Richmond reflects on the personal nature of Babyface's songwriting, appreciating the depth and authenticity that comes from writing about one's own emotions.

"It's kind of beautiful even just divorced from the music. If you just look at the words, it's like high level, you know?"
— Justin Richmond [10:57]

Folk and Country: Masters of the Breakup Ballad

Ben Nadif Huffrey, producer and sometimes host of The Last Archive, joins the conversation to present an alternative perspective. He argues that folk and country genres excel in delivering compelling breakup and lost love songs, perhaps even surpassing R&B in this niche.

"Folk or country, either one would be my leading contender for the genre that is best at love songs. And I think it's because on some level, like, a breakup song or a lost love song is superior to a straight up love song."
— Ben Nadif Huffrey [17:36]

Ben emphasizes that breakup songs often resonate more deeply because they capture the complexity and pain of lost love, creating a sense of community among listeners who have experienced similar emotions.

"There's something about a particular breakup story or sad romance song that... creates a community with you when you maybe feel otherwise alone or bereft."
— Ben Nadif Huffrey [17:56]

Debating the Emotional Depth: R&B vs. Country

The hosts engage in a spirited debate over the emotional authenticity of R&B and country music. Leah Rose criticizes country music for its perceived focus on melancholy and lack of uplifting elements, suggesting that its roots in the Church of Christ contribute to its somber tone.

"It's depressive music. That's the whole point... they [country musicians] were... white Southerners bemoaning the loss of their status and, like, bowing their head in the face of a vengeful God."
— Leah Rose [32:42]

In contrast, Justin Richmond defends R&B's capability to handle both joyous and sorrowful themes, underscoring its versatility and emotional range.

The Subjectivity of Musical Preferences in Love Songs

As the discussion progresses, the conversation acknowledges the inherently subjective nature of musical preferences. Malcolm Gladwell expresses his personal preference for sad, unrequited love songs over happy, upbeat ones, highlighting how individual experiences shape one's musical tastes.

"I'll take a depressed, unrequited love song over a happy, over the moon love song any day."
— Malcolm Gladwell [40:43]

Justin Richmond concedes that genre categorizations are man-made and that the effectiveness of a love song often depends more on personal connection than on the genre itself.

"It's so subjective... it's for me, based on my personal experiences still R and B."
— Justin Richmond [40:31]

Conclusion: Celebrating the Diversity of Love in Music

The episode concludes with an appreciation for the diverse ways music captures the multifaceted nature of love and heartbreak. While R&B is celebrated for its historical depth and emotional resonance, folk and country are lauded for their ability to articulate the pain of lost love. The hosts and guests agree that the best love songs transcend genres, connecting with listeners on a deeply personal level.

"I'm gonna celebrate Valentine's Day by listening to songs that make me cry... Classics for Crying."
— Malcolm Gladwell [41:38]

Ultimately, the episode underscores that the "perfect" love song is one that authentically conveys emotion, regardless of its musical genre.

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Notable Quotes:

• "R and B isn't like the preeminent genre for love songs? It's like it's. It has to do with the ethereal and the theological, down to the romantic and the platonic, like it's everything."
  — Malcolm Gladwell [05:54]

• "It was the drive... that was in the fall."
  — Babyface [10:58]

• "There's something about a particular breakup story or sad romance song that... creates a community with you when you maybe feel otherwise alone or bereft."
  — Ben Nadif Huffrey [17:56]

• "I'll take a depressed, unrequited love song over a happy, over the moon love song any day."
  — Malcolm Gladwell [40:43]

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This episode of Revisionist History masterfully dissects the landscape of love songs, offering nuanced perspectives on how different genres capture the spectrum of human emotions associated with love and loss. Whether it's the soulful depths of R&B or the poignant storytelling of folk and country, the conversation celebrates the enduring power of music to express the most intimate facets of our lives.

Transcript

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[Justin Richmond]

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[Leah Rose]

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[Justin Richmond]

Hey everyone. Welcome to all you lovers out there.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is Justin Richmond and I'm Leah Rose.

[Justin Richmond]

We're the host of Broken Record, where we interview your favorite musicians and bring to life the stories behind their music, behind some of your favorite recordings. If you're listening to this in the Broken Record feed, welcome back. But if you're hearing us as a listener of another Pushkin show, that's because today we're doing something special.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's right, this is our Valentine's Day special, and today, to celebrate the music we love, Justin and I are going to do what we love, which is argue about music.

[Justin Richmond]

We're also going to be talking to some of our friends here at Pushkin, people who have equally strong opinions about the songs they love. I'll be talking to Malcolm Gladwell, who has a very Gladwellian take about why he believes country is the best genre for love songs. And I can guarantee it's not for the reason you may think it's Depressive music.

[Leah Rose]

That's what it is.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

We'll also hear from Ben Nadifre, the sometimes host of the Last Archive, about a love song he wrote that's so good it helped him score his Forever Valentine.

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

I think that folk music does love songs the best.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But first, Justin, I'm going to ask you what I think is the central question of today's episode. I think I know what you're going to say, but. But out of every genre and subgenre that exists today, which one do you think does love songs the best?

[Justin Richmond]

R and B. I knew it. Look, when you think about it, it's really the shorthand in music and in audio for love. Like, if you were scoring a love scene in a movie for, like, Netflix, for like, the most amount of people possible to watch, like, you would probably throw in an R and B song, you know, maybe Al Green, let's Stay Together.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

I. I'm so in love with you.

[Justin Richmond]

Come on. That's. That's really. Those are the sounds of love right there.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You know, it's very much like, what song are you choosing for the first dance at your wedding?

[Justin Richmond]

The first dance. Right, the first. The first slow dance. It's your junior high welcome dance. You know what I'm saying? Or your senior prom. Like, it's gonna be R and B. It's kind of the cliche genre that we go to. And I don't. I think I should give a deeper reason in here, because I think R and B kind of gets short shrift in the music world. Like, you know, rock and roll and hip hop have taken up all the air in the room for 60 years now. You know, since the British Invasion.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

A couple years were spent on edm, but.

[Justin Richmond]

Yeah, couple years. Yeah.

[Leah Rose]

Right.

[Justin Richmond]

Skrillex was big there for a second.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin Richmond]

It's not a sexy topic for some reason, I think, because it's so ubiquitous, because in some ways it's so ever present and we just find it very easy to ignore. But when you think about the fact that R and B comes out of really, like. It comes out of gospel. You know, like, gospel is about love and devotion to a higher being, to God. And at some point, all these gospel musicians that go out, they want to write popular songs or sing popular music instead of just singing in the church. And they take everything they've learned in gospel music about how to sort of create a stir and a fervor around God, and they just sort of sense a romantic love, so. So they just take God out and put in a Man, a woman, a lover. You know, a classic example is Sam Cooke, who's originally with the gospel group the Soulsterers. And he releases a song, he's so Wonderful, which is, you know, it's a gospel track.

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

Wonderful.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

God, so wonderful.

[Justin Richmond]

Then when Sam Cooke wants to cross over, like about a year later and wants to just make an R B cut, he reworks that same song and instead of wonderful, becomes lovable.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

Lovable. My girl, she's lovable.

[Justin Richmond]

So then how could you not say that R B isn't like the preeminent genre for love songs? It's like it's. It has to do with the. The ethereal and the theological, down to the romantic and the platonic, like it's everything.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And then it just gets dirtier and dirtier as the years go on. And then we land at the Thong Song.

[Justin Richmond]

Yeah, Cisco's song.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

Song.

[Justin Richmond]

Shout out to Cisco. I love Cisco. And that's a great album.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I love Cisco.

[Leah Rose]

That's a great song.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You know, R and B does do love very, very well. But there's other genres, too. I mean, look at Dolly Parton on Jolene. She's begging and she's pleading and she's out of her mind Please don't take my man but then who.

[Justin Richmond]

Who takes a. And we love Dolly. But then who takes a Dolly song like I'll Always Love youe and takes it to the next level?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Whitney.

[Justin Richmond]

Whitney.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

And I will always love you I will always.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Speaking of Whitney, someone who could sing anyone's song and make it sound phenomenal. This makes me think of the interview you did with Babyface for Broken record back in 2023. And he wrote some of Whitney's biggest hits.

[Justin Richmond]

I mean, he wrote some of my favorite Whitney songs. Forget about hits. This is some of my favorites. And, you know, a million other unforgettable songs that, you know. Yeah, they also happen to be hits. Boyz II Men's End of the Road, Mariah Carey's We Belong Together. Breathe Again by Toni Braxton.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yes. That was such a great interview.

[Justin Richmond]

Yeah, man. I mean, I'm sitting there with Babyface and I'm watching him play guitar in front of me. It was just crazy, you know, and he's. He's left handed. He plays upside down like Hendrix. I mean, he's not as good as a guitar player as Hendrix, but I mean, it was just incredible to be that personal up close with him and seeing how he wrote these songs. And he played for me a song he's never recorded with anyone. It was the Very first song he ever wrote about an early love of his and his first love actually in high school.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Let's hear some of that.

[Babyface]

Here I go. Falling in love again. That was my first song and. And I wrote it for a girl because I was like in love and stuff. And so the guitar really was just an instrument for me to get these songs out of me. I always like to say, even when I play and learn things on the piano, I play. I'm not really a piano player. I learn things to support my songwriting. And that's what I did. Then I turned that into my first song. So I was just learning chords to support all my little songs.

[Justin Richmond]

Wow. And for you, songwriting was about writing songs for the girls you were in love with. Yeah, crushes on.

[Babyface]

Yeah, crushes on. And it was. It was purely kind of an escape. So to say.

[Justin Richmond]

Wow.

[Babyface]

It wasn't anything but that. I didn't think they were going to go anywhere. But that was the. That was the drive.

[Justin Richmond]

And you would have been like 11, 12, 10, 1112. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I play a deal song?

[Babyface]

Sure.

[Justin Richmond]

Sweet November.

[Babyface]

Yeah.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

That will bring us back the love that we.

[Babyface]

Wow, man, that's.

[Justin Richmond]

That's a great song.

[Babyface]

I wrote that right out of high school.

[Justin Richmond]

Out of high school?

[Babyface]

Yeah. I was. It was cuz I was a manchild, So I was second year or something. 78 or so. 78, 79. Right in that time. So it was a girl. It was like this one girl, she was like the most. While we were in high school, we were really good friends and there's no way I would have ever thought I would have been with her. But when I got out of high school, we. We started talking and then we actually started dating. I remember Darryl was like, how. How is this even happening? How do you have her? And then I remember we went to go see Brooke Shields. Endless Love. When I saw Endless Love together. And then something happened, I think right before we were going out, going away in Manchild. All of a sudden she stopped calling me and I couldn't. I couldn't reach her. And I don't know what happened, but it was just like. We're just like broken up. And then there was no cell phones, There was no good. You couldn't reach your own opponents.

[Justin Richmond]

No social media, they're doing.

[Babyface]

It was just done. And I was really messed up about it. And. And that's when I wrote this, you know, because, you know, that was the time period. It was in the fall. And so then I was thinking maybe, maybe when I come Back maybe. Maybe this November we'll get back together and find it. So that was actually a love song that was written way back then.

[Justin Richmond]

Would you have written the words or would you write the words?

[Babyface]

I wrote the piano and wrote it.

[Justin Richmond]

It's like. The piano.

[Babyface]

Yeah.

[Justin Richmond]

Wow.

[Babyface]

So.

[Justin Richmond]

Because it's kind of beautiful even just divorced from the music. If you just look at the words, it's like. It's high level, you know?

[Babyface]

Yeah. It was when autumn first arrived. You were my lady. We were dating.

[Justin Richmond]

It was the second rain of autumn. We shared a feeling.

[Babyface]

Yeah.

[Justin Richmond]

Come on.

[Babyface]

That's like. We start dating and then all of a sudden we like. I remember it was raining and like, looks like something's gonna happen here.

[Justin Richmond]

So that song was really personal.

[Babyface]

Yeah.

[Justin Richmond]

Exhale was more from watching the movie. Watching the movie, you don't necessarily have to write from personal experience. You can. You can, but you. You can watch others and.

[Babyface]

No. Yeah. It's really about watching others and how they. How they feel and how they imagining having to go through that. I'm always asked, how are you able to write for women?

[Justin Richmond]

Yeah.

[Babyface]

And said if you just kind of think of it and think of whatever they go through and think of how you'd feel, you know, it's not that hard to figure out. Damn, that's fucked up. I feel. You know, I think I'll write about that, you know.

[Justin Richmond]

Yeah.

[Babyface]

And as a kid that was always falling in love and thinking I was in love.

[Justin Richmond]

Feeling like you were in love.

[Babyface]

You know, that's what it was. My very first song was about a girl named Rhonda Newborn. I always say her name, and that was in Here I Go Falling in love Again. And the second song that I wrote that I clearly remember was about the same girl, which was two years later, from sixth grade to eighth grade, because she broke my heart. Was called the Bitter Taste of Life.

[Justin Richmond]

Oh.

[Babyface]

Those are feelings that I. That I had. And everything was exaggerated. I had written a song called so Shy. So there were pieces. There would be pieces of things, of songs that I would write. I wrote a song called Tanita. Wrote a song called Shelly. One of the best songs I ever wrote was a song called Last Song Forever, which was. I wrote that when I was in my senior year. Never recorded it. I think some. I think I let a group record as they turned into a gospel.

[Justin Richmond]

Do you remember any of it?

[Babyface]

Yeah.

[Justin Richmond]

Could you play a little of it?

[Babyface]

I don't know what my voice is like right now.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

When I think of special thoughts, I remember special feelings we share Then I think of special moments. Those were special times. You told me you care. You know when autumn comes the leaves will float away I hope you know by now My love will always stay. I know I will love you forever you should know my love can't get no better. Last song forever I couldn't love you no better.

[Leah Rose]

How's it going?

[Capital One Bank Guy]

Then I do right now and now it's forever.

[Babyface]

That's a little piece of.

[Justin Richmond]

You can hear all of my conversation with Babyface in the Broken Record episode that we're going to link to in the show Notes. There's so much more to it, including how some of his biggest influences were singer songwriters like James Taylor and the Beatles. Coming up after the break, Pushkin producer Ben Adifaffrey tells Leah about writing his own love song.

[Leah Rose]

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[Justin Richmond]

You keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy what's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC Picture this.

[Leah Rose]

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[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

I think that folk music does love songs the best.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's Star Pushkin, producer and sometimes host of the Last Archive, Ben Nadif Huffrey.

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

Folk or country, either one would be my leading contender for the genre that is best at love songs. And I think it's because on some level, like, I think a breakup song or a lost love song is superior to a straight up love song.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Me too.

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

Because I think, like, you don't. If you're in love, you don't really need a song. Like, you feel this kind of symphonic happiness. Like there's something specific that you're experiencing with another person. Like if you are experiencing lost love or unrequited love, there's something about a particular breakup story or sad romance song that, like, creates a community with you when you maybe feel otherwise alone or bereft. But I think that there's, like, wistful folk music, wistful country music, kind of toes the line between these two things, to be honest.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I also think that sad songs might make the best love songs. But the real reason I wanted to talk to Ben is because I learned at our holiday party that he also has a second life as a musician and as a songwriter with the band Rukin.

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

Yes. And this is part of my long con to get interviewed on Broken Record for my music. Well, you're clever. Yeah, exactly.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So this is our Valentine's Day special, and I was tipped off by our producer, Izzy, about a love song that you wrote a couple years ago. And it actually ended up having sort of like a big impact on your life. So I wanted to ask you about this song, if I didn't know you by now. So set the stage for us. How did this song come to be?

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

Well, I wrote this song about, like, a year after I first moved to Brooklyn. So I was like, just out of college and I had moved to Brooklyn and I was living with a bunch of friends in what was, you know, actually quite a Nice apartment. I had not made my corner of the apartment particularly nice. I was not having the best time that year. And I had, I think, as an expression of vague despair, just, like, not really done anything to set it up. I don't remember why this is, but I remember I had, like, a tarp in the corner of the room. I had a tarp in the corner of the room, like a mattress and then a saw on the wall.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, my God.

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

I thought it would be, like, fun to put on my wall, but it looked terrifying. And that was, like, pretty much it. And I remember distinctly walking into the apartment one time with a good friend of mine from high school, and I had, like, change in my pocket. And I, like, took the change out of my pocket and I threw it in the corner. And she was like, why did you just throw your change in the corner? I was like, that is. That is the corner of the apartment where I keep my change. And it was like. It was indeed, like, next to the tarp, like, a pile of change. So there were no shades on the window. This was, like, a crucial thing. I just was, like, not super taking care of myself. Everything was totally fine, but my life was not in order. And then I started dating a friend of mine from college. Her name was Julia, and she was living in Nashville at the time. And we sort of, like, picked back up talking to each other at a distance. And then when she came to New York, we would hang out. And I noticed that, like, as Julia and I had been talking more and started seeing each other in Nashville and also in New York, that slowly I had begun to set up my room. I got shades through the window. I put, like. They didn't actually fit, but I got, like, handkerchiefs that extended them to the bottom. I got rid of the tarp. I did, in fact, leave the saw on the wall because that was by then a crucial part of the decor and my identity and remains. So I don't remember what I did with the change corner. There's a good chance the change corner sort remained.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The growing up process is a slow one.

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

The growing up process is a slow one. But it began. It began with fixing up that first room. There was a moment, I remember, where she came and visited. It was early spring, and we had this really wonderful weekend together exploring the city. And she'd grown up in New York, and I was kind of new there, and she was showing me around, and we went to a Lebanese church, and I'm Lebanese. And it was kind of like a. They just wandered in because they were having, like a food festival kind of thing. Like, there were a lot of wonderful, serendipitous things.

[Leah Rose]

Yeah.

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

And I remember it was after that visit, I think, on the day that she had left, that I was hanging out in my room and I was playing guitar and I started writing this song. Like a lot of hack guitar players, I use a lot of open tunings. And around that time I been playing the Rain Song by Led Zeppelin, which is a version of OpenC tuning. And so I just would, like, keep my guitar in that. And I remember figuring out the sort of main guitar line and then messing around with the words over it.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

If I didn't know, you might know. Would I ever hang the plans up on my window Fall away and pack up all my clean clothes without complaining?

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

You know, I'm not a professional songwriter. This was a song that, like, definitely did not come easily to me, but it felt sort of like inspired by that moment. And that feeling was kind of like a reflection of the fact that I was noticing that my life was changing and an expression of gratitude to her for bringing me to the place where I wanted to do that.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

At what point did you realize I'm writing a love song for Julia?

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

I think that that is just what it was. I think it's just because that was sort of where it came from. So I don't think it was a realization ever. It was just kind of. That was the first feeling it started from. So, yeah, I was in a long distance relationship, both then with Julia, because she was living in Nashville, but then also with the lead singer of my band, Adam, who he was in, like, the UK getting a master's in Medieval literature or something. And we were always working on an album in the background, usually as like an escape hatch from, like, one or another job that we didn't want to do.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yep.

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

So we were always like, kind of trading versions of things. We spent a lot of time basically on every song, just, like, trying to get it right, recording and rerecording, that kind of thing. And I would always share those things with Julia, and she, like a joke evolved, where she sort of teasingly would be like, is this song about me? A thing that I would always flatly deny. She'd come to shows and she would like. We would always have these long introductions to our songs, but often we wrote historical songs like Mark Twain's Brother died in a Steamship Accident. And there would be a long preamble to the song about Samuel Clemens's brother who dies in this horrible way. But there would Notably be no preamble or introduction to this song. And so this was the thing I was often mocked about. And it kind of reached a head when we were, like, crowdfunding an album that we were doing, which is a fancy way of saying, like, asking our friends for money. And there was a thing that we offered that was like a handwritten lyric sheet with a story behind the song. And so Julia bought that, requested a lyric sheet with the story behind the song for this song.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, wow.

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

Which as a way of, like, cornering me into having to admit the provenance of the song. And I did not fulfill that lyric sheet for, like, quite a while. And it wasn't until, again, sort of as like a joke in return. But it wasn't until we got engaged that I then did actually deliver the lyric sheet with the story as a kind of like, you know, obviously this is a song about you and the way I feel about you.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

Flush with all the faces I have seen I hope to find you waiting there Wherever this may lead I didn't know you right now.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Do you have a favorite part of the song?

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

I always love everything Adam writes. He, like, wrote the last verse that I think kind of like takes it to a totally different place. It gets, like a lot darker right at the end in a way that I wouldn't have done but think it gives it a lot of heft.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

Dark while there's still time we haven't closed all of the doors to the night still feels good to lean my head into your side Cuz if I didn't know the way you come to me Feel the first snow you find me there finally felt that when I told you I was hopeless you said all right, you carry me back through Big night. Big night.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Well, thank you so much, Ben.

[Ben Nadif Huffrey]

Thanks for having me. This was fun. Happy Valentine's Day.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Such a beautiful song. Again, that's if I didn't know you by now by Rukin. I'm not sure if Ben's going to convince Justin that folk is the best genre for love songs, but in a minute, Malcolm Gladwell weighs in and he gets us thinking about this question in an entirely different way.

[Justin Richmond]

Foreign banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. He'd also tell you this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks, Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC.

[Leah Rose]

Picture this. You're in the garage, hands covered in grease, just finished tuning up your engine with a part you found on ebay. And you realize, you know what? I could also use some new brakes. So where do you go next? Back to ebay. You can find anything there. It's unreal. Wipers, headlights, even cold air intakes. It's all there. And you've got ebay guaranteed fit. You order a part and if it doesn't fit, send it back. Simple as that. Look, DIY fixes can be major. Doesn't matter if it's just maintenance or a major mod, you got it. Especially when things are guaranteed to fit. So when you dive into your next car project, start with ebay. All the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. Ebay Things people love this episode is brought to you by LillyDirect. Using innovation to help simplify managing your chronic conditions. From independent in person care or telehealth consultations to direct deliveries of select Lilly medications if prescribed by a healthcare provider, lillydirect is committed to making your health journey more seamless. And don't forget, LilyDirect's platform also offers well being content tailored to help you navigate your day to day life as you manage your condition. Visit lillydirect.com and discover how they can support your overall wellness. Now back to the program. Yeah, I don't think country music does good love songs. I think it does good breakup songs, heartbreak songs. It does the reverse.

[Justin Richmond]

Malcolm Gladwell is a best selling author, the host of Revisionist History and Pushkin's resident country music aficionado. When I heard we were doing a Valentine's Day music episode, I knew we were gonna have to get his take.

[Leah Rose]

So country music, which is consistent with its role in American popular culture, it is the downer to rock music's upper right rock music. And I did a whole Revisionist history episode on this. It was, you know, the striking thing about rock music is the inability of rock musicians to write effective sad songs. Their sad songs are terrible. They're just not sad. Right. They're not believably sad. They're rock and roll songs that are kind of, you know, trying to pretend to like. I gave the example of Wild Horses, which is supposed to be a sad song. It's not sad. What's sad about it?

[Justin Richmond]

And also it's like totally sad and faux country.

[Leah Rose]

It's also banal and like wild. Wild horses. Like what, what is going on. I mean, it just, like. It doesn't work. Country, though, is totally comfortable in that kind of emotional morass. That's the whole. It's depressive music. That's the whole point. It's the South. It's like white guys who lost the Civil War never got over it. That's what it is. You know, I was talking to some guy yesterday about the Church of Christ, which is a almost overwhelmingly Southern denomination of Christian denomination, and Nashville is the heart of Church of Christ. The music in Church of Christ churches is insane. There's. Church of Christ, famously has no orchestral music. They've got no. It's all a cappella, which is way more demanding. The Church of Christ, it is not a happy denomination. It's not Pentecostals jumping up and down and welcoming the risen Lord. No, it's like white Southerners bemoaning the loss of their status and, like, bowing their head in the face of a vengeful God.

[Justin Richmond]

And no piano to lift their spirits.

[Leah Rose]

And no piano to lift their spirits. No organ, no piano, no nothing. Use your own voice, damn it. Which is why, by the way, so many countries singers come from the Church of Christ. Amy Grant is Church of Christ. Merle Haggard is Church of Christ. I could go on and on List, if you look it up. It's insane.

[Justin Richmond]

Yeah, I'm looking at this church, I'm like, this is Roy Orbison.

[Leah Rose]

They're all Church of Christ. They're all Church of Christ.

[Justin Richmond]

Loretta Lynn, Woody Guthrie.

[Leah Rose]

So, like, is it any surprise? Country music, which comes from Nashville, the epicenter of the Church of Christ, is, like, the least happy music known to man? No, it's like. It's, like, depressive.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So.

[Justin Richmond]

So Stan stands to reason then that, like, in the. In the continuum of, you know, when it comes to love songs, on the continuum of. Of sort of emotions that go along with love, country music would fall more on the side of sad over a breakup, sad over unrequited love, sad because I'm in a marriage I don't want to be in, but I'm still in love with my high school sweetheart or whatever, you know, whatever those songs are that these sad kind of Love's not going right or we're breaking up.

[Leah Rose]

One of my favorite country songs about heartbreak is. I think it's George Strait. Does Fort Worth ever Cross yous Mind? Which is a classic. I mean, you can't. If we're gonna talk about country music and sad songs, we're starting with George Strait now. Okay, so I'm gonna Read to you some lyrics to. Does Fort Worth ever cross your mind? This is the opening stanza. Cold Fort Worth beer. This is how it begins Just ain't no good for jealous I've tried it. Night after night you're in someone else's arms in D Does Fort Worth ever cross your mind? Darling, while you're busy burning bridges Burn one for me if you get time.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

Worth heaven cross your mind.

[Leah Rose]

What's hilarious about this is this song is all about parsing the cultural distinction between Fort Worth and Dallas, which looms large in the. In the minds of people from Texas. And the rest of us are like, what? This song makes no sense to anyone who's not from Texas. I want to give you a. You left me here to be with him in Dallas. And I know it hurts you at the time well, I wonder now if it makes a difference. Does Fort Worth ever cross your mind? It's 20 miles away. It's a whole song. It's a whole song about a stretch of interstate. It's just so fantastic. This is what's so hilarious about it.

[Justin Richmond]

It is, like, so petty.

[Leah Rose]

It's so petty. And so. But, like, this is why rock and roll can't do a breakup song. Because a breakup song requires a certain level of emotional and narrative specificity, and rock and roll is too obsessed with being universal. Yeah.

[Justin Richmond]

They're not enough in the details. In rock.

[Leah Rose]

No details. Did Prince ever write a song about. Did St. Paul ever cross your mind? No, no, no. Because that's not the business he's in. He's not in the business of evoking this kind of strong emotion. He. He was aware of the distinction between Minneapolis and St. Paul, but chose. Chose to overlook it in his songwriting. That's why he's a rock musician or a R B musician and not a country musician.

[Justin Richmond]

So. So he's saying that you. You left me to be with him, and he's saying Dallas with the level of dis. I mean, that's a.

[Leah Rose]

With the level of Disney. No, no, no. You have to understand the song here. The reason why it's not. Does Dallas ever cross your mind? That's a wholly different song.

[Justin Richmond]

Yeah.

[Leah Rose]

Yeah. Fort Worth is the ugly stepsister. Fort Worth is one step down the rung. So she left him to upgrade in Dallas.

[Justin Richmond]

To move up.

[Leah Rose]

Yeah, that's why it hurts. If she left him for a dude in Fort Worth, he's fine. He's moved on. He's finding another girl in Dallas. No, no, no, no, no. He's in Fort Worth. And what did she do? Got up one morning, drove down the interstate and upgraded her situation, leaving him in a pile of tears in Fort Worth.

[Justin Richmond]

Well, you see that?

[Capital One Bank Guy]

This is why.

[Justin Richmond]

And you know, I was talking to Leah. This is why I think R and B is the greatest genre for love song. I don't ever want to be the guy in Fort Worth pining about the woman who left me to upgrade to go to Dallas. Like, that's why. Like, Whitney Houston, like, you know, in her song, she catches, like, the guy cheating and she says, it's not right, but it's okay. I'm gonna make it anyway. Like, I want, I wanna. You left me. Fine. I'm not gonna wallow. I'm just gonna move on with my life. Bigger, better things. Like, that's where I want to live.

[Leah Rose]

No, no, it's that you're just. What you're just identifying is that she's made a stronger stuff. That's what that's about. And some of this is like. Is bathos. Am I pronouncing that right? Is it bathos or. Bathos?

[Justin Richmond]

Yeah, pathos. Pathos or pathos.

[Leah Rose]

No, I think bathos is the word. I want B, A, T, H. Bathos. Definition. Yeah. Anticlimax, created by an unintentional lapse in mood from the sublime to the trivial or ridiculous. Like, that's what. Does Fort Worth ever cross your mind? Is bathos. Right? That's what that is. Right? That's the appeal of the song.

[Justin Richmond]

So, I mean, is there a hope for the country music fan? I mean, like, you know, I guess there are country music songs explicitly about love. They're just not as good. They're just not. They're not the A tier country music songs.

[Babyface]

Right?

[Justin Richmond]

I mean, there's like, Forever and Ever. Amen, Randy Travis. People play at their wedding or.

[Leah Rose]

But that's a song. But think about that song, the way he sings it. He sings it like it's a sad song. I'm gonna love you forever and ever.

[Justin Richmond]

It's very wistful.

[Leah Rose]

Forever and ever. It sounds like he's committing to a prison sentence. Oh, man.

[Justin Richmond]

Like, what does it say about you, Malcolm, that when you're asked to think what genre might be the greatest for love songs, your mind goes to the breakup song.

[Leah Rose]

I once had a friend named Mike, and he didn't know me very well. And we decided to go to a ball game together. This is in the 80s. And we drove from Washington D.C. to Baltimore to see the Orioles. And I played some mixtapes in a car. And at the end, he turned to me and he said, I had no idea how depressed you are because every single song in the mixtape was a song about some kind of broken heart, suffering, sadness, death. I don't know. That's what I wanted, a song.

[Justin Richmond]

But there is no part of being around you that feels mired in sadness or depression.

[Leah Rose]

No, but I don't, I don't want. I don't like upbeat songs. It's my problem with rock and roll is it's just like. Just calm down already. Like just, that's. Can we wallow in our emotions for a moment here and not just beating our head against the wall in ecstasy? It just. It strikes me as unseemly.

[Justin Richmond]

Leah. I mean, several points, well taken from Malcolm. You know, I love country music dearly. I think songwriting is impeccable and they certainly do a love song and a sad song incredibly well. But you know, I, I just, I guess I just, I. I just like a more happy song. I like them. I just, I. I don't know. I don't know if I can live like in that kind of misery.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I think it's so funny. I mean, you know that I love a sad song over a happy song. And I'll take a depressed, unrequited love song over a happy, over the moon love song any day.

[Justin Richmond]

Well, Leah, you know, I feel like we're back to where we started, which is, you know, I mean, you're probably right. Look, the whole idea of genre is it's a man made creation. And there's probably no way to categorize what sort of genre and what culture does the love song the best.

[Leah Rose]

It's just.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's so subjective.

[Justin Richmond]

It's so totally subjective. And you know, it's for me, based on my personal experiences still R and B. I mean, I think I'm even further entrenched in my position now at this point. But you know, I love that Malcolm and Ben both have their strong feelings and I love that you're ever sort of non committalness around any of this.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, I know. I'm just gonna keep it open. I'm keeping it open for new experiences and I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna celebrate Valentine's Day by listening to songs that make me cry.

[Justin Richmond]

Well, you know. No, no, no. Celebrate Valentine's Day. I made a great playlist of love songs. Listen to that. We'll put that in the show notes and listen to that. Not the sad songs, please.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Wait, I just saved a playlist and this is real. I just saved a playlist from Spotify called Classics for Crying, so I'm getting that queued up.

[Justin Richmond]

This episode was produced by Isabel Carter and edited by Sarah Nix. Our mix engineer is Sarah Bruguer.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Special thanks to Ben Nadif Hay, Malcolm Gladwell, Costanza Gallardo, Owen Miller and Eric Sandler.

[Justin Richmond]

I'm your host, Justin Richmond.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And I'm Leah Rose. Happy Valentine's Day.

[Unknown]

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