Loading summary
Transcript95 lines
- [00:00]
Unknown
Foreign.
- [00:10]
Ben Walter
The Unshakables Podcast is kicking off season two with an episode you won't want to miss. Join host Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business as he welcomes a very special guest, Chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. Hear about the challenges facing small businesses and some of the oh moments Jamie has overcome. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JP Morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JP Morgan Chase & Co.
- [00:46]
Malcolm Gladwell
Are you managing chronic conditions like migraines, diabetes or obesity? Discover Lilly Direct, your patient care resource designed to support you during those steps when you need it most. With options to help connect patients to independent telehealth and in person providers and obesity and wellness education and information. LillyDirect helps you get the guidance and expertise you need when you need it. Plus their online pharmacy solution, powered by licensed pharmacies, delivers your medicines directly to your door if prescribed by a healthcare provider. Visit lillydirect.com today and take the first steps towards a healthier, more balanced life. Hello, hello, Malcolm Gladwell here. I've teamed up with Kenya Barris, one of the most talented and hilarious filmmakers in Hollywood for a brand new podcast, the Unusual Suspects where we hang out with people we're obsessed with and have them tell us something we didn't know about success. Season 1 Dr. Dre, WNBA legend Sue Bird, Jimmy Kimmel, filmmaker Ava DuVernay, celebrity chef David Chang, and on and on. Listen to the Unusual Suspects with Kenya Barris and Malcolm Gladwell on Audible. Now go to audible.com unusual suspects May 25, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota early evening a 911 dispatcher makes a call. 3:30 as you describe as the only available audio sector to Cup Food Chicago 3759 Chicago on 38. They are reporting that there's a person who used a counterfeit bill as a business. The dispatcher is Jenna Scurry, seven years on the job. She's in a big room with multiple computer screens and televisions running live video feeds from around the city. The details from the call come over her screen. 38th in Chicago. Suspect at a grocery store. Suspect is a black male, 6 foot 4 taller, sitting on the hood of a blue Mercedes license plate boy Robert John 026, possibly locked as well. She sends a squad car to the scene, looks up and realizes the city has a fixed camera on that corner of 38th and Chicago. So she has a live video feed up on one of the screens. She sees the Officers try to put the suspect in the back of one of the squad cars. She looks away. When she looks back, he's on the ground, handcuffed, face down. One officer kneeling on his neck. The suspect is George Floyd. The officer on top of him is Derek Chauvin. She looks away again, takes another call. At the criminal trial the following year, arising from the events that day in 2020, Scurry was the first witness called by the prosecution, and she relived the events of that evening step by step.
- [03:56]
Unknown
At some point then, did you go back to this, and how did it appear at that time, when you went.
- [04:02]
Jenna Scurry
Back to it, it had not changed.
- [04:04]
Unknown
And what do you mean by that?
- [04:05]
Jenna Scurry
They were still on the ground. The whole situation was still the same.
- [04:11]
Unknown
Do you recall approximately how long that was?
- [04:14]
Jenna Scurry
No, it was long enough. It was. It was long enough that I could look back multiple times.
- [04:21]
Unknown
And so when you did look back, still on the ground, like depicted here? Essentially.
- [04:26]
Jenna Scurry
Correct.
- [04:27]
Unknown
And what did you think about this when you looked back and saw that it hadn't changed?
- [04:36]
Jenna Scurry
I first asked if the screens had frozen.
- [04:43]
Malcolm Gladwell
My name is Malcolm Gladwell. Welcome to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. I'm guessing you watched the bystander videos of what happened that night during the fevered Covid summer of 2020. I know I did. I knew the villain. I knew the victim. I thought that's all I needed to know. But then I ran across the George Floyd video again not long ago, by chance, one of those serendipitous Internet moments, and watched it for the first time in years, far from the intense emotions of the first time. I saw it. And I realized I didn't understand what was happening, what Chauvin was doing, what the other police officers on the scene were thinking. Which made me wonder if somehow, the first time around, I had missed the lesson of the case. So over the next two episodes, I'm going to do a close reading of what happened to George Floyd, an unfamiliar reading, starting with the perspective of the very first person to see things unfold in real time. Jenna Scurry. Because before George Floyd stopped breathing, before the angry crowd gathered, before the scene turned into tragedy, she could see Derek Chauvin behaving so strangely that it led her, a 911 dispatcher who had seen a thousand crime scenes in her career, to stop and stare at the video feed in disbelief. As in, this can't be real. The screen must be frozen. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. When I think back on my life, I realize I would be nowhere without the people who helped me and gave me advice along the way, starting with my parents. My seventh grade teacher Jim Debac, my track coach Brent McFarlane, my friend Michael Spector, who took me under his wing when I joined the Washington Post. Not to mention the many friends who have talked to me when I was down or celebrated with me when I was up. They didn't have all the answers, but all those people knew things I didn't, and that was invaluable. You know, therapists can play the same role in our lives. They can help direct and encourage us, give us wisdom when we need it, help when we're floundering. Therapy can be a source of support for any area of your life. It's time to shift the focus from doing it all to knowing that we're better when we ask for help. And that's why I'm a big believer in BetterHelp. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide. Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com gladwell to get 10% off your first month. That's Better Help. H E L P.com gladwell the Unshakeables.
- [07:34]
Ben Walter
Podcast is back for season two, and it's kicking off with an episode you absolutely won't want to miss. Host of the show and CEO of Chase for Business, Ben Walter welcomes a very special guest, Chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. One of the world's most respected financial thought leaders, Jamie will connect the dots between the current challenges and opportunities facing small business owners and the broader financial landscape. And of course, it wouldn't be an episode of the Unshakables if Jamie didn't share some of the, oh, moments that he overcame to forge ahead in his own career. You can find this must hear episode and the rest of the upcoming season of the Unshakables wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more@chase.com podcast chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply JP Morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JP Morgan Chase & Co.
- [08:34]
Malcolm Gladwell
It's that time of year again. The time I like to ask, how's that New Year's resolution working out? Are you drinking less? Exercising more? Eating better? If you're like most people, the answers are no, no and no. Because research shows that 90% of Americans break their resolutions, usually within two weeks. But did you know that in ancient cultures, the vernal equinox was considered the New Year, which means you have a second chance to make a resolution. And there's one in particular that can improve your health, your mood, and your energy level. You just need to commit to better sleep. That's right. Better sleep has been scientifically linked to a better you. Which is precisely why you need a Saatva luxury mattress. Every Saatva is meticulously handcrafted to gently lull you to sleep and keep you sleeping soundly. It's no wonder they were named the best overall mattress by sleepfoundation.org so commit yourself to getting a better night's sleep. And if you really want to keep that commitment, get a Saatva. And now save $200 on $1,000 or more at saatva.com gladwell that's S-A-T V A.com gladwell.
- [09:53]
Unknown
Did you find that it had frozen?
- [09:55]
Jenna Scurry
No. Well, I was told that it was not frozen.
- [09:58]
Unknown
Did you see the screen change yourself?
- [10:00]
Jenna Scurry
Yes, I saw the person's moving.
- [10:02]
Unknown
So what did you start thinking at that point?
- [10:05]
Jenna Scurry
Something might be wrong.
- [10:07]
Malcolm Gladwell
Wrong with.
- [10:08]
Unknown
With what? What are you thinking?
- [10:10]
Jenna Scurry
It was a gut instinct of in the instant something's not going right, whether it be they needed more assistance or if there were, there just something wasn't right. I don't know how to explain it. It was a gut instinct to tell me that now we can be concerned.
- [10:34]
Unknown
And what did you decide to do?
- [10:37]
Jenna Scurry
I took that instinct and I called the sergeant.
- [10:39]
Unknown
Have you ever in your career before called a sergeant for something like this?
- [10:44]
Jenna Scurry
Multiple for an incident like this, right? To be exact, no.
- [10:51]
Malcolm Gladwell
In the beginning, there was nothing extraordinary about the situation unfolding on the corner of 38th and Chicago. A man passes a counterfeit $20 bill. The clerk calls 91 1. The suspect hasn't run. He's sitting in his car across the street. He isn't armed. He isn't hostile. He seems like he's high. Two officers approach him and tell him to get out of the car. He pleads and complains, more like a scared child than a grown man. He talks about his mom. He finally gets out. The officers handcuff him. They ask him his name. He says it's George Floyd. They lead him over to the squad car, but he doesn't want to get in the back seat. He says he's claustrophobic. He's having trouble breathing. He struggles and squirms. And because he's a big man, well over 6ft and 200 pounds, it makes things difficult in the struggle. He cuts his mouth one of the officers calls for an ambulance. A second squad car arrives. There are now four police officers on the scene and one handcuffed suspect, clearly unhappy but deferential. We know from the body cam footage that by this point he has used the words sorry and please 57 times. That's Floyd. Is he going to jail? That's Derek Chauvin. He's one of the two officers in the second squad card that just pulled up. He's under arrest right now for forgery. Can we figure out what's going on? Let's take him out and just for what?
- [12:29]
Unknown
Come in, man. Get a breath.
- [12:32]
Malcolm Gladwell
Hey, come on out. Look at you.
- [12:33]
Unknown
Thank you.
- [12:38]
Malcolm Gladwell
Get him on the ground. Chauvin says as the senior officer present, he's taken control of the situation. He wants Floyd in the prone position, face down, hands cuffed behind his back. He then puts one of his knees on the side of Floyd's neck and the other between Floyd's shoulder blades, A technique sometimes used with non compliant subjects.
- [13:06]
Unknown
I can't breathe, man. Please, please let me stand.
- [13:12]
Malcolm Gladwell
Chauvin says we'll hold him until the ambulance shows up. Floyd says, let me stand. Chauvin says no. So what does Chauvin do next? Chauvin doesn't move. Chauvin just sits there. He's frozen. Right around this time, an off duty firefighter named Genevieve Hanson was out for a walk, happens upon the scene, identifies herself as a firefighter, a trained first responder.
- [13:44]
Genevieve Hanson
I was pretty focused on trying to get the officers to let me help.
- [13:52]
Unknown
And how are you doing that? Trying to get the officers to focus on you and get help?
- [13:57]
Genevieve Hanson
I think in my memory I tried different tactics of calm and reasoning. I tried to be assertive. I. I pled and was desperate.
- [14:15]
Malcolm Gladwell
Hansen testified at Chauvin's trial in terms.
- [14:19]
Unknown
Of, you know, his face when you're first there, or even the rest of him, what is it that you saw that made you concerned about his medical needs?
- [14:30]
Genevieve Hanson
I was really concerned about. I thought his face looked puffy and swollen, which would happen if you were putting a grown man's weight on someone's neck. I noticed some fluid coming from what looked like Jerd's Floyd's body. And in a lot of cases, we see a patient release their bladder when they die. I can't tell you exactly where the fluid was coming from, but that's where my mind went. He wasn't moving. He was being restrained, but he wasn't moving.
- [15:14]
Malcolm Gladwell
Later at the trial, a police surgeon named Bill Smock was walked the jury through the videotape of Floyd's final moments pointing out all the mounting warning signs.
- [15:25]
Bill Smock
What I want you to also watch for is what is his right arm doing? As this progresses, you will see him pushing against the tire. You'll see his right arm, his elbow pushing against.
- [15:39]
Malcolm Gladwell
Yes, I'd like to know, what is it showing us? Why is that significant?
- [15:43]
Bill Smock
This is very important because it's showing what Mr. Floyd is doing to try and breathe, to get his right side of his chest up off of the pavement so that he can bring in air.
- [15:56]
Malcolm Gladwell
Smock breaks down Floyd's final minutes frame by frame. Let's look at another segment, Brett.
- [16:03]
Unknown
If we can go to start at.
- [16:05]
Bill Smock
20, 21, you will hear his voice get. They get weaker and weaker. You will see his lose facial expression. You will hear him make sounds of trying to breathe as we get closer. He then goes unconscious. You will then see in the next section, he has what's called an anoxic seizure. That's a fancy word for his brain is going without oxygen, very low. His legs shake. But you're also. You will actually see. And you can hear the handcuff shake. And you'll see the body camera shake when he has an anoxic seizure.
- [16:50]
Malcolm Gladwell
Further on down the line, clear warning signs, clear red flags. Not to mention Genevieve Hansen and other bystanders are just a few feet away shouting at him to get off Floyd. And then another voice joins that chorus. It's one of the other officers. He says, should we roll him on his side? Rolling him on his side is what's known as the recovery position. Having someone prone on the hard ground with their hands cuffed and with a knee on their neck and in the middle of their back was acceptable practice in Minneapolis at the time. But the city's use of force training explicitly stated that the technique was only supposed to be used briefly and on someone exhibiting active aggression. It's dangerous. It's hard to breathe. I tried it. I had a friend put me in that position. It's scary. So when the subject calms down, you're supposed to roll them over. That's what the fellow officer is saying. We have to roll them over. But Chauvin says no. He says, that's why we've got the ambulance coming. He's not reacting to anything. This is what so alarms Jenna Scurry. When she looks back up at the scene, she's expecting things to have resolved themselves. Things should have happened. But nothing's happened. All she sees is Chauvin up on the screen, sitting on Floyd's neck, his hand casually in his pocket, his face impassive, he's frozen. Or to use a term favored by psychologists, he's fixated.
- [18:30]
Unknown
Fixation is simply going down the wrong path and getting stuck on that path.
- [18:36]
Malcolm Gladwell
That's Gary Klein. He consults with governments, armies, and hospitals on how to make better decisions under pressure and wrote the classic Sources of Power, one of my favorite books ever. For Klein, one of the most revealing case studies in fixation was the actions of the Israeli intelligence chief Elie Zara, in the weeks leading up to the Yom Kippur war between Egypt and Israel in 1973, he had what was called.
- [19:04]
Unknown
Now called in Israel, a conception. His conception was, egypt will never attack us until they have air superiority and they don't have their superiority and we have nothing to worry about. And he held onto that belief until about two hours before the attack. But his subordinates were seeing all these counter indicators. They're seeing the Egyptians moving troops and changing configurations at the border, all these signs that indicate an attack is imminent. And Zerah said, this is just a training exercise. But then the subordinates showed there was no sign of training going on, so this was just a cover story. And Zara refused to pass their concerns on hire. And then the attack occurred. So he was fixated, and he wouldn't budge.
- [19:58]
Malcolm Gladwell
The fixated decision maker cannot accept new information. Every time new information arises that challenges his original conception, he explains it away. Klein once did a big project at Johns Hopkins University Hospital looking at how physicians made diagnoses. And he found that the most experienced doctors were acutely aware of their own tendency towards fixation. It was a constant battle.
- [20:24]
Unknown
I watched one examination where the attending physician. This is the first observation I made. First, the attending physician is examining the person. The person's describing his condition and seems pretty straightforward. And at a certain point he says, what's this on your back? Well, it turned out he had had surgery for to repair some heart defect. This hadn't been in his history. And the physician said, wait a minute, let's start over. And he started the whole exam over because he was aware that there might have been implications in what he did that he didn't see because he didn't have this other possibility.
- [21:11]
Malcolm Gladwell
Did he end up changing his diagnosis?
- [21:13]
Unknown
Oh, yes, yes. They found a much more serious problem that the resident and some of the nurses had missed.
- [21:23]
Malcolm Gladwell
Fighting fixation means being willing to throw away all the work you've done in making sense of a complicated situation and saying, let's start over. This is What Chauvin doesn't do, he never says to himself, let's start over.
- [21:39]
Unknown
Derek Chauvin. He had a script for how to handle people who were larger and intimidating, and that's as far as he ever got.
- [21:52]
Malcolm Gladwell
You can't be. Is it fair to say you can't be a police officer if you're not willing to revisit your script?
- [21:58]
Unknown
You can't be an effective police officer if you. If you're stuck on your script.
- [22:05]
Malcolm Gladwell
Floyd is trying to raise his chest off the ground. Oh, that's because he's still resisting arrest. Some lady says she's a firefighter. Is she really? In fact, when Genevieve Hansen moves closer, she sho then goes for his mace. Floyd's voice starts to falter. About time. Maybe he's finally going to stop complaining. One of his fellow officers says, put him in the recovery position. Dude, I've been doing this for 19 years. Back off. The crowd that has gathered around Floyd and the four officers is becoming more and more vocal, but Chauvin isn't moving.
- [22:43]
Unknown
He's not responsive right now, bro.
- [22:46]
Malcolm Gladwell
No, bro.
- [22:47]
Unknown
Look at him. He's not responsive right now, bro.
- [22:50]
Malcolm Gladwell
Bro.
- [22:51]
Unknown
Are you serious? Let me see him.
- [22:54]
Malcolm Gladwell
Pulse.
- [22:55]
Unknown
Is he breathing right now? Check his pulse. Check his pulse. Check his pulse.
- [23:05]
Malcolm Gladwell
Check his pulse. Check his pulse. One of the other cops at the scene says to the officer sitting behind Chauvin. I can't find one. Floyd is dead, and still Chauvin doesn't move. He will remain on Floyd's neck for another three minutes, even after the ambulance arrives. Years from now, when university professors teach courses on decision sciences, they will play this video as a textbook example of fixation. But why is Chauvin fixated? What psychological mechanism could describe why he would just sit there? In the aftermath of the murder, it was said again and again that Chauvin is a racist. But calling someone racist is a description, not an explanation. Why is Chauvin stuck on his script? Foreign.
- [24:13]
Ben Walter
The Unshakables podcast is back for season two, and it's kicking off with an episode you absolutely won't want to miss. Host of the show and CEO of Chase for Business, Ben Walter welcomes a very special guest, Chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. One of the world's most respected financial thought leaders, Jamie will connect the dots between the current challenges and opportunities facing small business owners and the broader financial landscape. And of course, it wouldn't be an episode of the Unshakables if Jamie didn't share some of the. Oh. Moments that he overcame to forge ahead in his own career. You can find this must hear episode and the rest of the upcoming season of the Unshakeables wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more@chase.com podcast chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply JP Morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JP Morgan Chase & Co.
- [25:17]
Malcolm Gladwell
One of the most influential ideas to emerge in social psychology in recent years is is something called hostile intention attribution, a theory arising out of the work of Ken Dodge.
- [25:30]
Ken Dodge
For me, a very poignant event in my own thinking was that as a clinical psychologist, I was seeing a highly aggressive teenager in a state psychiatric hospital.
- [25:43]
Malcolm Gladwell
That's Dodge, who teaches at Duke University.
- [25:46]
Ken Dodge
And the boy's name was Rocky. I came up to his ward one day, approached him from behind to say hello, was trying to establish a relationship with him, touched him on the shoulder from behind, and he turned around and punched me in the gut. And in a nanosecond he stopped and said, oh my, you can't be too careful around here. And you know, he was making a decision that in that moment that somebody touching him on the back shoulder might be a threat. And he responded. That was his mindset.
- [26:26]
Malcolm Gladwell
Rocky could have interpreted that touch on the shoulder in any number of ways. He could have ignored it, shrugged it off, or assumed it was an invitation for affection and turned and smiled. But he didn't. He chose to focus on it and and to assume that Dodge had a hostile intent. That's hostile intent attribution, the pattern of interpreting everything as a threat. You can look at someone like that kid Rocky and offer an organic explanation of his behavior. He's a bad seed. He's wired wrong. But Dodge wants us to look at problematic behavior as a developmental problem as well. Somewhere along the way, someone's personal experience left them unprepared to make proper sense of the world. A very small child, for example, does not understand the distinction between an intentional act and an accident. That's something you learn. You gradually figure out that actions can come with any number of different explanations.
- [27:30]
Ken Dodge
I remember going to the pediatrician at age 4 and being deathly afraid of getting a shot.
- [27:36]
Unknown
Right.
- [27:37]
Ken Dodge
But my parents and everybody certainly quickly told me that doctor Was not trying to be mean to me.
- [27:44]
Malcolm Gladwell
Right.
- [27:44]
Ken Dodge
And I had to learn that. But I do think that it's a socialization of benign intent that early life is about, rather than the socialization of hostile intent.
- [27:56]
Malcolm Gladwell
After talking to Dodge, I began to observe my own kids more closely. They're both Preschoolers two years apart. The big one loves to manhandle her little sister, and most of the time that interaction is greeted with laughter. But sometimes, if my eldest goes too far, her sister cries. And I realize that what they are doing is, to use Dodge's phrase, learning how to make accurate attributions of each other's behavior. When the big sister's push is too aggressive, the little one learns that seems to have a different intention from what we were doing before. She's learning the difference between fighting and playing. And when the little one cries out instead of laughing, the big one learns, oh, if I want to keep playing, I have to make sure that my actions are accurately interpreted. She's learning how to rein in her aggression. That kind of feedback loop is a crucial part of a child's socialization. But in the case of the boy Rocky, what Dodge realized was that that process of socialization, of learning how to accurately distinguish between a hostile touch and a playful touch, had been disrupted.
- [29:06]
Ken Dodge
I remember interviewing a 10 year old kid who told me about, when he was 4 or 5, the family that he lived in at that time. His father, stepfather, would come home every night from work and he learned how to minimize the likelihood that he was going to get beaten up that night by smelling whether his father had alcohol in his breath, whether his father had a mean look, whether his father called him into the kitchen with his belt already undone, put it on the kitchen table. He was learning all four years old, and he's learning all these signals and he could describe them to me in great detail. So I think an early life of threat, personal, physical threat, there may be others as well. Is one way that it would be very adaptive to develop a defensive mindset and to assume a hostile intent from another person.
- [30:06]
Malcolm Gladwell
If your father is violent 60% of the time and loving 40% of the time, and you can't tell in the moment which direction he's going to go, then it makes logical sense for your own physical safety just to assume that your father is always going to be hostile. But when you take that assumption into the real world, onto playgrounds, into classrooms, into the workplace, it doesn't work. It makes you a bully, a pariah. It makes even routine interactions deeply problematic. And nowhere is this dysfunction more problematic than policing, of course, because if you are a police officer whose early life and experience has left them impaired in that way, who as a result makes hostile attributions all the time, then how can you be a police officer? I don't know what chauvin's upbringing was like. But I know when I saw the tape again after talking to Dodge, I wondered if Shobun wasn't just someone like Rocky, all grown up. And the one thing Rocky can't be is a police officer. Because being good at that job relies maybe more than almost any other profession on being able to distinguish in the heat of a moment, between a hostile act and an ambiguous act, between someone who is struggling because they can't breathe and someone who is struggling because they are resisting arrest. Between someone who says I'm going to die because they're trying to trick you and someone who says I'm going to die because they are in fact going to die. If you can't do that, then you can only interpret the world one way. Then, in the middle of a fast evolving situation, when there is new information coming in all the time, you have all only one way to interpret it. A threat. In the course of the investigation into the death of George Floyd, a second case came to light. It happened in 2017, three years earlier. A woman calls 911. She says her son has assaulted her. The police arrive, talk to the woman at length. She says her son is down the hall in his room. In the body cam footage, you can see the officers walk down the hallway. The boy is on the floor of his bedroom on the phone. He's 14. The lead officer in the group is lean, in his 40s, with a passive demeanor. It's Derek Chauvin. The officers enter the room, tell him he's under arrest. He says his mom was drunk. He gets up, reluctantly. His voice is calm. He doesn't act out. He's not aggressive. He says his mother had done this before, called the police when she's the one who has a problem. That's why his uncle left the house. He says he seems genuinely confused as to why he should be the one under arrest. He's a teenager. John, why don't you come on here. That's Chauvin.
- [33:12]
Bill Smock
I'm fine.
- [33:15]
Malcolm Gladwell
Stand up for me. No. You're under arrest, so stand up. I'm not under the rest. Yeah, you are. Stand up. My mom is drunk. You can call her brother. Stand up. She assaulted me. Stand up. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna ask you any more time. You can't arrest me. Stand up. Ask my sister. Stand up. I'm not gonna ask you in again.
- [33:37]
Unknown
You can't touch me in my own.
- [33:39]
Malcolm Gladwell
Stand up. You can't touch me.
- [33:40]
Unknown
Me on my own.
- [33:40]
Malcolm Gladwell
Get up now. Chauvin moves towards him, starts Beating the boy over the head with his flashlight. Opening a wound over his ear that will require stitches. Puts him in a chokehold, throws him to the ground. And then things go from bad to much, much worse. Get on. Get on your stomach now.
- [34:01]
Unknown
No, I need you. What I say, I feel. I explain to y'all. Ow. You hurting me. You hurting me. I didn't hear. I didn't hurt her. Mom, stop. I didn't do nothing.
- [34:33]
Malcolm Gladwell
Then his mother enters the room. Chauvin crouches down next to the prone boy and puts his knee on the boy's neck. Then he just sits there. There are at least six officers at the scene at this point. Most of them have filed out of the room as if they can't stomach what's happening. One of the remaining officers turns his body cam to the wall. Chauvin keeps his knee on the boy's neck for 15 minutes. Even after the paramedics arrive and the boy explains to them that he blacked out after he was choked and that his ear is bleeding, Chauvin remains on the boy's neck, frozen. The boy is eventually rescued, and he's finally able to get up and walk away. I have watched that body cam footage more times than I can count. And every time, I find myself crying at the end in a way that I never did with George Floyd. Not because it's worse than George Floyd, because of course it isn't, but because it's about a boy. And it was all recorded on tape years before it happened again. A former U.S. attorney named Manda Sirtich examined the video while prosecuting Chauvin for murder.
- [36:08]
Manda Sirtich
I would say the two most striking things about what's depicted in the 2017 video are, first, that the minor doesn't act out in any physical way whatsoever. The other striking thing about the video that I think is much more visceral is how obvious it is that it's a child being assaulted. And when former officer Chauvin has that really strong strike on his head with the flashlight, there's that pause that any parent who has a kid will recognize right after a kid gets really hurt. And then the minor says, oh, you're hurting me, and begins to cry and sound very much like the child that he is. And he continues to cry in the same way over 15 minutes intermittently.
- [37:12]
Malcolm Gladwell
There's another reason I found that tape so heartbreaking. Something that I did not expect myself to feel and something I cannot entirely explain. I felt an overwhelming wave of pity for Derek Chauvin, a man who sees every action as a threat, who cannot tell the difference between fear and aggression, who looks at at a boy on his phone in his bedroom and sees a monster that is a dark, joyless place for anyone to find themselves imprisoned. And by what tragic failure of administration did a man who showed on videotape that he cannot do the single most important thing that a police officer needs to do to be a police officer, remain on the force for three more years until he killed someone in cold blood? That's next week. Revisionist History is produced by Nina, Bert Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan and Ben Nadaff Haffrey. Our editor is Karen Shakerjee. Fact checking by Sam Russick. Engineering Nina Bird Lawrence. Mixing and mastering on this episode by Jake Gorski. Production support from Luke Lamond. Thank you to Mikhail Liebowitz. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Special thanks to Sarah Nix and El Jefe, Greta Cohn. I'm Malcolm Glab.
- [38:55]
Unknown
Sa.