Episode 143: Beavering Beyond Boundaries With Joaquin Murrieta-Saldivar

Summary

Rewilding Earth Podcast: Episode 143 Summary

Title: Beavering Beyond Boundaries With Joaquin Murrieta-Saldivar
Host: Jack Humphrey
Guest: Joaquin Murrieta-Saldivar
Release Date: March 7, 2025

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Introduction to Joaquin Murrieta-Saldivar

In Episode 143 of the Rewilding Earth Podcast, host Jack Humphrey welcomes conservationist Joaquin Murrieta-Saldivar. With a robust background in building community resilience and enhancing connections between people, culture, and natural resources, Joaquin brings over two decades of experience working on the US-Mexico border. His work spans watershed management, river restoration, conservation of native populations, and sustainable ranching practices. Joaquin holds an MS in Natural Resources and Agricultural Economics and a PhD in Renewable Natural Resources Studies from the University of Arizona.

Notable Quote:
Joaquin introduces the core of his work:

“And in terms of rewilding, in terms of how beavers, which is the same species from Canada to Mexico, how beavers are uniting these countries, how beavers are showing us the way on watershed health and repairing restoration, and how do we build around the idea of beavers in our environments?” (00:07)

Insights from BeaverCon

Joaquin recounts his first experience at BeaverCon, an event dedicated to beaver conservation and rewilding. He highlights the diverse and passionate community he encountered, including participants from the UK and Canada. Joaquin’s unique approach—presenting in a beaver mask—captured the audience's attention, blending humor with informative content.

Notable Quote:
Reflecting on the event's impact:

“It was very engaging, inspirational, exciting for me and, but also giving some kind of hope of what we're doing here on Earth, we as humans.” (03:14)

Rewilding in Urban Environments

A significant portion of the discussion centers on integrating rewilding efforts within urban settings. Joaquin challenges the traditional notion that conservation is limited to wilderness areas, advocating for "wild cities" where nature coexists harmoniously with human-built environments. He emphasizes the importance of green infrastructure, such as rain gardens and permeable pavements, to manage water infiltration and create urban wildlife habitats.

Notable Quote:
On the possibility of wild cities:

“Can we have natural cities, can we have wild cities, can we interact with urban wildlife or urban wildlife habitats? And because nature belongs also in urban built environments. So how do we welcome that?” (08:19)

Water Management and the Beavering Analogy

Joaquin draws parallels between the natural behaviors of beavers and human-led water management practices. He explains how beavers’ dam-building activities slow down water flow, promote infiltration, and enhance watershed health. Translating these behaviors into urban and rural settings, Joaquin and his team implement green storm infrastructure to mimic beaver ecosystems, thereby improving water retention and reducing flood risks.

Notable Quote:
Describing human "beavering" in cities:

“We are beavering in the urban environment. Beavers used to be here maybe 120, 130 years ago in the vicinity of Tucson. But what beavers do, and that's what we're doing with water harvesting, is three things. They diminish the speed of water, they create dams and they spread that water and they infiltrate that water.” (15:00)

Community Involvement and Sustainable Ranching

Joaquin highlights the collaborative efforts with the ranching community in Arizona and Sonora, Mexico. By implementing erosion control structures and promoting native vegetation, these partnerships aim to restore soil health and water infiltration. The introduction of actual beavers to these areas has shown promising results, with ranchers embracing the ecological benefits despite initial concerns about flooding.

Notable Quote:
On integrating beavers with ranching practices:

“We built analogs, the BDAs, but also the beavers build their own. And it's been two examples of that with two ranching families that have adopted and they're always wondering of reintroduction of beavers in their properties.” (21:51)

Advancing Rewilding Efforts and Future Prospects

Looking ahead, Joaquin discusses ambitious projects such as reintroducing beavers to the Santa Cruz River in Tucson and reducing individual water usage through initiatives like the "40 by 2040" campaign. He underscores the long-term benefits of these efforts, including raising water tables and restoring natural river flows, while also addressing societal and policy barriers that impede progress.

Notable Quote:
On the potential impact of rewilding:

“We are so certain that we can be at 40 gallons per person a day by 2040. We are demonstrating that in our homes, in our office, and rain garden has a lot to do with it.” (24:49)

The Intersection of Human Well-being and Nature

Joaquin connects the dots between environmental health and human well-being, citing research that links proximity to nature with lower stress levels and increased happiness. He advocates for integrating native plants into urban landscapes, like milkweed gardens that support monarch butterflies, thereby enhancing biodiversity and fostering a deeper human-nature connection.

Notable Quote:
Emphasizing the human-nature relationship:

“The closer the human being, the closer is to nature, the better off we are. And, and that way stress levels go down. If you're less stressed, you don't get sick that often, then you're more productive, you're happier.” (16:10)

Overcoming Challenges and Policy Barriers

Joaquin candidly addresses the challenges faced in rewilding efforts, particularly governmental policies and public perceptions that hinder the reintroduction of species like beavers. He stresses the importance of education and community engagement to shift attitudes and demonstrate the tangible benefits of rewilding practices.

Notable Quote:
On obstacles to rewilding:

“But it's funny, because what is stopping us of doing that? And it's two things. And I'm sorry, but I'm going to blame government because of policies and human attitudes.” (25:00)

Conclusion and Call to Action

The episode concludes with Joaquin expressing optimism about the future of rewilding, driven by collaborative efforts across communities, ranchers, and urban planners. He encourages listeners to visit watershedmg.org to learn more and get involved in ongoing initiatives that aim to restore natural ecosystems and foster sustainable living practices.

Notable Quote:
Closing thoughts on rewilding's potential:

“We're working with other organizations on rewilding some rural roads that are being decommissioned by the forest service. And it's very interesting to see that those humans bringing back nature in rural areas here around Tucson.” (34:41)

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About Joaquin Murrieta-Saldivar

Joaquin Murrieta-Saldivar is a dedicated conservation biologist focusing on rewilding and sustainable water management in the US-Mexico border region. His innovative approaches blend traditional conservation techniques with modern urban planning to create resilient ecosystems that benefit both nature and human communities.

For more information on Joaquin’s work, visit watershedmg.org.

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Listen to Episode 143 on Rewilding.org

Transcript

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

And in terms of rewilding, in terms of how beavers, which is the same species from Canada to Mexico, how beavers are uniting these countries, how beavers are showing us the way on watershed health and repairing restoration, and how do we build around the idea of beavers in our environments?

[Podcast Announcer]

You're listening to the Rewilding Earth podcast.

[Jack Humphrey]

Thank you for tuning in to the Rewilding Earth podcast. I'm your host, Jack Humphrey. Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar specializes in building resilience in diverse communities by enhancing the connections between people, culture and natural resources. He brings vast experience on the multicultural border region between the US And Mexico, where he's implemented community based approaches to watershed management, river restoration, conservation of native people, and best practices for the ranching community. His past work has been with the Sonoran Institute and as a consultant for National Geographic Society and other organizations. Joaquin is a graduate of the University of Arizona with an Ms. In Natural Resources and Agricultural Economics and a PhD in Renewable Natural Resources Studies. I'm fascinated by all the different ways people around the world are doing conservation, working on rewilding projects to reconnect big open wild cores of habitat, but also in urban areas, which are a very important puzzle piece in making the world wilder. I met Joaquin at BeaverCon last fall. During his entire presentation, he wore a beaver mask and through a combination of humor and undeniable energy around wild and urban rewilding projects, had the packed house leaning in, laughing and learning.

[Podcast Host]

Joaquin, welcome to the Rewilding Earth podcast.

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

Yeah, very nice to be here and thank you for the invitation.

[Podcast Host]

So we met at beavercon. That was my first beavercon. Was that your first one or are you an alumni?

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

No, that was the first beavercon. And it was a fantastic interaction with all kinds of enthusiastic beaver people, as I call them, human beavers. And so that was actually. That was a very nice, inspiring gathering of people.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I couldn't believe it. I still marvel at what we saw and the kinds of people and the diversity of just agencies and organizations.

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

Yeah, it was very engaging, inspirational, exciting for me and, but also giving some kind of hope of what we're doing here on Earth, we as humans. And it was fantastic that this creature Bieber is putting these interesting humans together to provide some kind of pathway in terms of, yes, rewilding, but also in terms of relationship with nature, relationship with humans. And so vivacon put together all that and the synergy that these humans as well as this creature is providing at the national level. And we talk a little bit about the international level. There were People from the UK in this beavercon and I represented a little bit the. The Mexico side of beavers. And I don't know if there were some Canadian people in this beaver con.

[Podcast Host]

I think we even had a Viking. I didn't get to meet that guy. But you remember the really big guy that looked with a beard and everything else and he had a accent. I'm like, I wish I would have gotten to talk to him more. I'm like, where are all these people coming from? This is amazing.

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

The Viking beaver. And then the other thing I did because of the quality of people that was there, I think I. And that's how I captured attention is wearing this Bieber mask. And I never done that and I'm just going to wear it. But there was this guy too. He put us to sing, he wrote a poem. He's calling Thorn, I think. I don't know if you were there, but the whole beaver conference he was singing a poem that he wrote and it was about the different landscapes that we work, that we deal with. He was talking about the cultural landscape, the beaver scape, the urban scape, the native scape. It just. Wow, that's very interesting, all these interactions of landscapes and what it means for nature and what it means for humans to interact in those landscapes. I thought that was pretty neat too. As well as some of the native peoples that I think dene relating landscapes in terms of bison as well as beavers and the interaction of that wildlife and the interaction of human relationships with wildlife. Anyway, it was a great event. It was my first time. Now I'm talking with the Bieber Institute to how do we elevate this in North America, where we are from Canada all the way to Mexico, in terms of rewilding, in terms of how beepers, which is the same species from Canada to Mexico, how beavers are uniting these countries, how beavers are showing us the way on watershed health and repairing restoration. How do we build around the idea of beavers in our environments? I hear a lot of complaints of humans in built environments, of the mischievous beaver and that they create flooding, that they flood my backyard, that they did this. That's a good thing. How do we live like that? How do we coexist? That was the word we were using at that conference. And because this always captured my attention, that we need to relocate beavers, that we need to could beaver somewhere else because they're doing their. What they do, they're creating dams and we don't like that. We need to remove them, we need to wait A minute. That's part of the process of water cycles, of nature cycles. So how do we live around that? I don't think we are capable yet of living with beavers and. And talking about rewilding. How do we interact in urban built environments and nature and diverse. I'm fascinated with that concept of can we have natural cities, can we have wild cities, can we interact with urban wildlife or urban wildlife habitats?

[Podcast Host]

And.

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

And because nature belongs also in urban built environments. So how do we welcome that? And what type of built environments with natural world within and around it can we interact with?

[Podcast Host]

I checked out your Instagram. Some work with the watershed. I think it was Tucson, but with drainage and with water capture. And that I think went back quite a ways. That might have been around 2020 that that video was out. But I was catching up to your history and finding out what makes you tick. I was just wondering if you want to expand on the kind of work that you've really been proud of to do.

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

Yeah, no, it's very interesting because my pathway in conservation and working with nature, it's always been outside built or urban environments. I needed to go to wilderness to protect things, to conserve things. I need to go to a public land, I need to go to a park, I need to go to other countries. And I've been doing that for over 20 years or something like that and concentrating a lot on reaper restoration here in the southwest US as well as northwest Mexico and other countries. But it captured my attention the last 12 years or so that I always needed to get out of the city. Why do I always need to get out? To protect, to conserve. Can I do anything in the city or what is the role of the city in nature? What is the role of nature in the city? Urban environments that we humans love. We love the urban environment. We love pavement, we love concrete, we love rooftops, we love hospitals, universities, movies, malls and bicycles and cars and things like that, which is great. Okay, what is the role of nature in the human Build empowerment. So that's starting to capture my attention a lot. And it came down to whatever we build. It conflicts with nature and it conflicts with the water cycle of nature. Like here in Tucson, for example, we build homes and cities and things like that. And we're not infiltrating water to our aquifer. Actually we're taking water away from the city to the point that the aquifer water is around 250ft below the surface in downtown Tucson. Is that the way to live? I start asking myself that. And that's the reason rivers are also dry because the water table is way below us. And in order for a river to flow, it needs to be between 0 to 30ft, the water table. So that's when the river comes into the surface. And I like to have a river in my city, which is Tucson. Can we do that? Can we have a river flowing again? And it turns out that the science is telling us, yes, we can do that. But we need to do these things to conserve water. We need to infiltrate water. We need to guide the stormwater to rainwater harvesting basins, for example. We call that rain gardens. We've been building all kinds of rain gardens or greenstone infrastructure here in Tucson along the borderlands of US and Mexico. With that thinking of infiltrating water and in that process creating urban wildlife habitat. Like I'm sitting here in my house and through the window I see all kinds of native plants because I have a fantastic rain garden. But then on those native plants, I created this urban wildlife habitat in my house. It's all kinds of butterflies, all kinds of birds, all kinds of reptiles. Sometimes the occasional javelina shows up. Coyotes, rabbits, and they eat some of that my plants. But it's okay. It's great to see a rabbit eating some of the wild plants that we have here. So in that process of water infiltration or managing rainwater, we're creating all those benefits to nature and to humans. It's very interesting to see too that there is a lot of research being done that the closer the human person, the human being, the closer is to nature, the better off we are. And, and that way stress levels go down. If you're less stressed, you don't get sick that often, then you're more productive, you're happier, you're. Why don't we do more of that? Why don't we have more nature where human built environment, since we're happier and more productive, everybody should be doing that. And even the very heavy built environments like Tokyo, like Mexico City, now there are doctors that are giving you a recipe. You need to get out, go hug a tree, go take a walk, go see a river, do something. I call that the ddn, the daily dose of nature that humans need in order to be happy. Since we love the urban environment and I want to be happy, I'm going to bring nature back to my house or nature back to the city or in how I do that, it turns out that water is helping me a lot to do that. And if it is rainwater, even better. Coming back to beavers. This conversation Started. There is several of us doing this. It's not just myself because I never work alone, and several nonprofits. Several. Now we created some government programs for water harvesting here in Tucson and elsewhere. But at the end, we call it, we are beavering. We're beavering in the urban environment. Beavers used to be here maybe 120, 130 years ago in the vicinity of Tucson. But what beavers do, and that's what we're doing with water harvesting, is three things. They diminish the speed of water, they create dams and they spread that water and they infiltrate that water. And in that process, it's a lot of benefit that happen to the ecosystem life and to the ecosystem services. Because if you have water, suddenly you're going to have more fish, or suddenly you're going to have bats that come at night and drink that water, or suddenly you're going to have more riparian trees. And so you're creating this fantastic habitat for other species thanks to the beavers that has diminished the speed of water, spread that water and infiltrate that water from beavers. We're learning that. Can we do that in the city? If you have a street, yes. How can we diminish the speed of water on a street with green stone infrastructure or with rain gardens along street side basins and things like that On a street, we're taking water away from storm water, we call it, and we cut the curb. Water comes in and infiltrates right there besides the street. Instead of creating flooding issues or instead of just water running away from us, we're capturing it and we're infiltrating there. And in that process, there are trees, there are grasses, if they're native, even. Fantastic. And so that's what we call beavering. We are beavering in a street because we're diminishing the speed we're spreading and we're infiltrating water. And it can be as simple as that. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

How much are you getting help from the city? I know that Tucson, I think, is a little bit more progressive than maybe some other cities.

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

It is, but it is. And the city is doing fantastic work. After several years of interaction with us, with nonprofits, with other enthusiasts and with other scientists that are doing this and community organizers and government, sometimes they're very slow in doing things and blah, blah, blah. But now Tucson has adopted the greenstorm infrastructure elements for the city for two reasons. One is, yes, water infiltration, and two is to diminish the effects of climate change, which is more in the area of flood and also more in the area of heat or where cities are getting hotter, particularly here in the desert. We are in the Sonoran Desert. We get temperatures that are around 114, 115. In Phoenix, 120 and several weeks of that. It's just too hot. That's the two motivations for government for cities is flood mitigation and heat mitigation. The heat island thing, it turns out that with water harvesting, we call it greenstone infrastructure. At that scale, we can mitigate the flooding and the heat. The gsi, the green storm infrastructure with the storm to shade is more of the street level, neighborhood level, park level. Tucson has adopted a very nice progressive water harvesting elements for the sea. But that's thanks to the push of several nonprofits and the community work that we've been doing for a long time.

[Podcast Announcer]

You're listening to the Rewilding Earth podcast. Did you know we also publish insightful and inspirational content from leading Rewilding scholars, poets, artists and organizers from around the world. You can visit rewilding.org and sign up for our weekly digest to receive brilliant fresh insights on everything rewilding. You'll find over a decade of articles and news from the front lines of wildlands protection and all kinds of restoration efforts. Check us [e-mail] and don't forget to share it with friends.

[Podcast Host]

So we have different forms of beavering. We have original beavering done by beavers and human beavering. What about the stuff when you get to get out of the city?

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

Oh my God, all kinds of things that we're doing a lot of beavering with the ranching community of Arizona and Sonora, for example. And when I say beavering is mainly to do that thing, diminish the speed, spread and infiltrate of water. And so we've done a lot of erosion control structures with the ranching community to diminish the sediment load because we have a lot of denuded soils here in the desert thanks to cattle. And those denuded soils start creating erosion issues and head cuts and things like that. And whenever it rains, water just flush away from the system, I call it, as opposed as having a sponge effect in the soil. So if we have grasses, if we have something like a gabion, something like a rock structure that diminishes the speed of water, it doesn't detain the water, it retains it a little bit, but then it start percolating through the rocks and infiltrating. By doing that, you're maintaining the soil where it has to be and you're enhancing the vegetation cover around those erosion structures that we build with the ranching community. And the ranchers see that I like grasses and I like water. So let's build more on that.

[Podcast Host]

Is it all analogs or do you see some promise there that maybe in the future they'll figure out how to do it with actual beavers?

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

Yeah. The other day a beaver translocation company gave us a call to Watershed Management Group and we captured this beaver. Do you have a place to put it? And luckily they call. And so we immediately call this rancher family, ranching family. And they adopted that beaver because they used to have beavers before in this San Pedro. And sometimes they see them, sometimes they don't. So we brought that beaver to this ranching family and it was adapted. But beavers move around and so we have flooding and rain and things like that. Yes, they are ranchers, they are families. There are property owners that will love and are welcoming beavers into their property and. Or at least they're also helping us, assisting us in monitoring the health of beavers or the presence of beavers in these systems that we work. Yes, we build analogs, the BDAs, the famous BDAs, but also the beavers build their own. And it's been two examples of that with two ranching families that have adopted and they're always wondering of reintroduction of beavers in their properties. The concern is that other ranchers not might like that because beavers move and that's a fantastic thing they do. So that's a lot of the education we're also doing on both sides of the border here in Arizona and Sonora, Mexico.

[Podcast Host]

Have you done enough work or seen enough work that you can present to them? Look what your neighbor did. Look at that.

[Jack Humphrey]

It's an oasis.

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

Yeah. And that's the importance of the human beavering. We're doing ocean control things, the water percolation. They started to see more humidity. They're starting to see more productivity of their landscape. And I want to do more of that. So all the ranchers are wondering that. But we didn't start that work with the ranching community because of beavers. We start that dialogue because of the sponge effect of vegetation cover and sediment loads. But that also assists in the percolation of water towards the rivers where the beavers exist.

[Podcast Host]

Have you or know of any studies that have actually risen the water table in any instance? I think that would be very difficult to do in the Southwest, but boy, would it be incredible to be able to brag about.

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

Yeah. And Coming back to the city of Tucson, here in Arizona, we have the Central Arizona project. It's a big channel, concrete channel that brings water from the Colorado River 360 miles uphill. So that way Phoenix has water or more water, and Tucson has some water as well. So what Tucson is doing is actually. And it has some infiltration chambers on the west side of the city. And they're infiltrating most of that water to the aquifer. But that's a huge scale of infiltration. And so we starting to see the change on the. On the aquifer. So we can measure that. And it's been measured. So we see the effects of that. And what we see the effects on the beaver and with the ranching community, again, is the diminishing erosion, diminishing sediment load, increasing vegetation, and the maintenance of humidity in the soil. It just depends where you're working with that and where the water table is. Sometimes water tables are way too low.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

And for a rainwater to get to the water table, it takes some time. And so that's what we've been measuring. Sediment and vegetation cover and humidity, presence of humidity in the soil. And then is the assumption that some of that water eventually. But that takes years get to the e. Filtration levels to the aquifer to.

[Podcast Host]

See a thousand years down the road at the start and the continuation of things that you are taking part in and helping cities to build and rethink what they are really supposed to be doing. With the infiltration, for example, I think it's exciting to even think about it. Even if we're not going to get to see it, maybe.

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

Exactly. And the reason we're doing that is because before cattle and before the extermination of beavers, all where soils were covered with grasses, but now with cattle and no beavers, all where soils are eroded, nature has been infiltrating water for quite some time. And then we humans just pump the water and the aquifer goes down. That process takes time in order to infiltrate water. Depending on where you do it, like Tucson did, the city of Tucson, you can be more effective in. In. But you're just getting one effect of infiltrating water to the aquifer. Yeah. What the ranchers are doing is creating several ecosystem services just by providing some beavering. And it's creating. Bringing back the grasslands, bringing back the humidity, bringing back the infiltration of water. And you're so right to have that level of impact in the aquifer at that scale. It takes some time we're working with beavers because we want to reintroduce beavers in the santa cruz river here in the city of tucson. The science is telling us that we can do will take 30, 40 years, maybe. I want to see them, so I better do something. But it's funny, because what is stopping us of doing that? And it's two things. And I'm sorry, but I'm going to blame government because of policies and human attitudes. What I say also is, what happened with the river here in tucson? Where did the river go? It used to be flowing. So what happened? And then a little kid the other day told me, I work a lot with schools told me, so what happened? I asked him, ask happened. He said, whoa, you're so right. Ask happened. And in that process, the river turns out that is in the houses of all tucsonians. That river is in the mining industry. The river is in the pistachio farms that we have. The river is in the farming areas that we used to have. You start wondering, can we have less river in the house or less river in the industry and more river in the river? By conserving water, we can have more river in the river by creating these rain gardens, we can have more river in the river. Right now, each Tucsonian is using 80 gallons per person a day, and we are a million people here. Suddenly, we're talking about millions of gallons. For a city to thrive, to move forward, to exist, can we use less water per person a day? And what is the role of rainwater in that? It turns out that we can. Actually, we at watershed management group, where I work, we have a campaign 40 by 2040, because we are so certain that we can be at 40 gallons per person a day by 2040. We are demonstrating that in our homes, in our office, and rain garden has a lot to do with it, the rain garden things. I'm proud to say that here in my house, we only use 50 gallons per person a day, as opposed to 80, because it turns out that all the water in tucson that we use, 30 to 40% of residential use of drinking water, it goes to irrigate plants that do not belong to the sonoran desert. And just by creating rain gardens with native plants, we can save 40% of water. And that's a huge savings. And now we're calling about decolonizing our landscape. And it's a lot in that word. It's a huge word, decolonization of things. What that means. Coming back to bison. Why do we have cows here and no bison? That's why I love that conversation with the Navajo Dinette people. At Beavercon, they were correlating bisons and beavers. And that's part of that decolonization effects. Do cows belong here? Is that the only way to do ranching just with cows? Can we do range management with buffalo? I'm pretty sure we can. So those type of decolonization things. So taking away the turf from combs or the Bermuda grasses that we planted and bringing back the natives, it changed completely the behavior of people towards water and the relationship of nature. And it comes back to the rewilding of our cities. Using my home as an example, the whole cycle of a monarch butterfly that I know, it comes from Canada, stops here in my house. And then it continued the journey to Mitchoacan, Mexico. Just, wow, that's pretty cool. And that happened right in front of my house because I have a rain garden with native plants which is covered with milkweeds and things like that that the butterflies love. And it turns out that Arizona has 14 species of milkweeds. Can we have milkweed gardens in our cities? Of course we can. And we don't need to water them because they're native, because they've been here forever. So with that romantic world rewilding, it's a lot of things added to change of humans towards nature in overbuilt environment. And it's not that we're going to depave the whole city. We're going to take the roof away from my house. No, we're just going to plant a rain garden and some native plants. That's it. Yeah. And they look beautiful. They are fantastic. There's always something flowering in my front yard or backyard. And they're native and just wow, this is pretty cool. And I don't need to water them.

[Podcast Host]

My friend, he lives right next to a mountain and he's become a wildlife photographer. He's had peccary coyotes, bobcats sometimes drinking out of the bowl at the same time in the really hot. They have to put aside their differences to live. They coexist. Why can't we? But it's just amazing. And their yard is a lot, I think, like what you're describing, yours is just. It's very open to wildlife and they're.

[Jack Humphrey]

Very supportive of it.

[Podcast Host]

And all of a sudden you start to blur the lines between city, urban and wild in a lot of ways, which is really cool. I think that's the goal, right?

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

That is the goal, but also is going back to the relation of humans and nature. We are a natural Creature. What is our role as a natural creature in our environment? The humans have the capacity to. To totally change landscapes with cattle, with cities, with cars, with all kinds of things that we love. And we do. But we also have the great capacity of rewilding all that. We're working with other organizations on rewilding some rural roads that are being decommissioned by the forest service. And it's a bunch of volunteers and people that go and rewild those rural roads. And it's very interesting to see that those humans bringing back nature in rural areas here around Tucson, in what I call the origins of water, which is the mountains that feed water to over rivers. That has a very romantic name, too. It's the sky island region. And that's where the beavers are on the Mexico side. And here in the Arizona side, too, we have some fantastic mountains. And it rains, like in Tucson, we get like 10 to 12 inches of rain a year. But in those mountains, you get 18 to 20, 22 inches of rain a year. And water goes downhill all the time. So in that process, again, of water flowing from mountains to floodplains, yes, nature created rivers. We created cities and communities. And so what is that relationship of water moving through the landscape? And also in that process of the sky island region, once in a while, we see some jaguars here in Arizona that comes from the mountain regions. The origins of water of Mexico. And in order for those jaguars to make it here, they come all the way from Saguaripa. It's a town in southern sonora, but it's 300 miles. But they do what? They walk through communities, they walk through roads. Now they need to find a place to enter because we have a border wall between the US And Mexico. All the things that the jaguar needs to pass through in order for that jaguar to make it to Arizona. And we get so excited here in Arizona when we see a jaguar. Last year, there was a photograph of one of them that came from the Huachuca mountains, not too far from here. And then you start wondering, okay, there's still that wilderness out there. So how do we support those wilderness with the attitudes of humans? And that's why I love that concept of rewilding, because there's a lot of rewilding that can happen. And it's happening and in relationship with humans and nature. And ranchers are doing it, urban people are doing it. So that's the hope I get from humans, that we have the capacity to bring nature back to where it belongs.

[Podcast Host]

For all the listeners, make sure you stop by watershedmg.org and you can find out more about what Joaquin's doing, but also a crazy number of people who are involved in that organization.

[Joaquin Murrieta Saldivar]

Thank you. And thank you again for the invitation and hopefully we'll see you sooner or if not, in the next beavercon with Yen Nos Vemos.

[Podcast Announcer]

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