Episode 146: Randy Hayes’ Roadmap for an Ecological Civilization

Summary

Rewilding Earth Podcast: Episode 146

Title: Randy Hayes’ Roadmap for an Ecological Civilization
Host: The Rewilding Institute
Guest: Randy Hayes
Release Date: April 11, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 146 of the Rewilding Earth Podcast, hosted by Frankie Oliver, conservation legend Randy Hayes returns to present a comprehensive roadmap for establishing an ecological civilization. Building upon his previous discussions, Hayes delves into the urgent need for systemic change to mitigate humanity’s destructive impact on nature. This episode offers a blend of insightful discourse, strategic planning, and actionable steps aimed at rewilding our planet.

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The Shift from Ideas to Implementation

Randy Hayes emphasizes the critical transition from merely generating ideas to implementing them. He reflects on advice from William "Bill" Reese, a prominent economic ecologist in Canada, who urged him to focus on how to achieve desired outcomes rather than just discussing them.

Randy Hayes [00:19]: "This is not the age of ideas anymore. This is the age of implementation."

Hayes argues that the fundamental ideas necessary for ecological restoration are already established; the challenge now lies in executing these concepts effectively.

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Five Societal Systems for Ecological Civilization

Hayes outlines a strategic approach centered around transforming five key societal systems. These systems are crucial leverage points that, if reformed, can significantly reduce humanity’s environmental footprint.

1. Economic System

   • Subsidy Reduction: Hayes advocates for the reduction of subsidies to extractive industries, including oil, gas, mining, logging, and industrial fishing.
   • True Cost Economy: Transitioning to an economy where goods and services account for their environmental impact, making unsustainable practices financially unviable.

   Randy Hayes [04:00]: "The reduction of subsidies to all extractive industries."

2. Energy Production System

   • Shift to Renewable Energy: Moving towards 100% renewable energy sources while addressing the limitations of relying solely on wind and solar.
   • Nuclear Energy Consideration: Acknowledges current dependencies on nuclear power to meet rising energy demands driven by technologies like AI.

   Bill Reese [04:16]: "Consumption system and the energy production system."

3. Energy Consumption System

   • Halving Energy Use: Targeting a 50% reduction in overall energy consumption within the G20 economies.
   • Eliminating Wasteful Practices: Cutting down on unnecessary energy expenditures, such as excessive manufacturing and transportation of low-value goods.

   Randy Hayes [04:41]: "Quit producing stupid stuff. This is an emergency."

4. Agricultural Production System

   • Transition to Ecological Farming: Aiming for 100% ecological farming globally to end industrial agriculture, which is a leading cause of species extinction.
   • Soil Restoration: Reversing the degradation of industrial soils to restore fertility and ecosystem health.

   Randy Hayes [10:37]: "Shifting to 100% ecological farming globally. Right. The end of industrial agriculture."

5. Planet’s Life Support System

   • Nature Protection Targets: Striving to protect 50% of the planet’s land and oceans by 2050 to preserve biodiversity and ecosystem services.
   • Insect Population Recovery: Addressing the alarming decline of insect populations, essential for pollination and ecosystem balance.

   Randy Hayes [11:06]: "Planet's life support system... protecting the web of life."

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Challenges in Achieving Ecological Civilization

The conversation delves into the immense challenges faced in implementing these systemic changes:

• Political and Economic Resistance: The entrenched power of extractive industries and their influence on government policies pose significant obstacles.

  Frankie Oliver [17:45]: "Every one of the five systems... touches on the oligarchy who is now completely in charge of everything."

• Public Awareness and Education: There is a need for massive educational campaigns to inform the public about the ecological crisis and necessary actions.

  Randy Hayes [06:19]: "An educational campaign... a media campaign, a communications campaign."

• Economic Transition Costs: Shifting subsidies and restructuring economies require substantial financial investments and could lead to job losses in traditional industries.

  Bill Reese [07:06]: "A budget for the first three years was $32 million just to launch a campaign of this scale."

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Strategies for Overcoming Obstacles

Hayes and Reese propose several strategies to navigate these challenges effectively:

• Comprehensive Media Campaign: Launching a large-scale media effort to disseminate the ecological message, targeting both traditional and digital platforms.

  Bill Reese [14:00]: "A global campaign here... influencers to get up to speed on improving their message."

• Collaborations and Partnerships: Engaging with communication experts like Frankie Oliver and leveraging their expertise to reach wider audiences.

  Randy Hayes [22:43]: "Partnerships with people like Frankie Oliver... to reach through talk shows and media platforms."

• Policy Advocacy: Pushing for legislative changes to remove subsidies from harmful industries and promote sustainable practices.

  Bill Reese [16:15]: "Reducing government subsidies to extractive industries... making bad activities financially unviable."

• Economic Reformation: Implementing a true cost economy where environmental impacts are factored into the cost of goods and services.

  Randy Hayes [16:15]: "A true cost economy... goods and services had to cover their pollution costs."

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Vision for the Future: An Ecological Civilization

Hayes paints a vision of an ecological civilization characterized by:

• Bioregional Economies: Developing self-sufficient regional economies that focus on sustainability and low-impact living.

  Bill Reese [27:42]: "Continental networks of bioregional economies... 95% self-sufficient."

• Rewilded Landscapes: Restoring natural habitats and ensuring that at least half of each continent and major island is preserved or rewilded.

  Frankie Oliver [12:21]: "Rewilding because it feels like the overarching thing... shifts in agricultural and energy systems."

• Ecologically Informed Democracy: Reforming democratic systems to prioritize ecological truths and long-term sustainability over short-term political gains.

  Randy Hayes [31:17]: "Democracy as we've known it has a fundamental flaw... we need ecologically informed democracy."

• Cultural Shifts: Encouraging societies to value art, culture, and ideas that support ecological health and rewilding efforts.

  Bill Reese [28:00]: "Trading globally in art, culture, and ideas... not so much physical stuff."

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Conclusion and Call to Action

As the episode concludes, Randy Hayes and Bill Reese urge listeners to actively engage with the outlined roadmap. They highlight the importance of individual and collective action in driving the necessary systemic changes. Hayes calls for immediate implementation, emphasizing that the window for effective action is rapidly closing due to escalating environmental crises.

Randy Hayes [33:36]: "Grab your project and run with it."

Frankie Oliver encourages listeners to support the movement by engaging with the resources available on the Rewilding Earth website and participating in ongoing efforts to promote ecological civilization.

Frankie Oliver [36:01]: "We're looking for your leadership... any way we can help you, we're there for you."

The episode serves as a motivational blueprint for activists, conservationists, and concerned citizens to collaborate towards a sustainable and rewilded planet.

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Key Takeaways

• Immediate Action Required: The transition from idea generation to implementation is crucial to address the escalating ecological crisis.
• Systemic Transformation: Five key societal systems—economic, energy production and consumption, agricultural, and life support systems—must undergo significant reform.
• Comprehensive Campaigns Needed: Effective media, education, and policy advocacy are essential in driving the necessary changes.
• Collaborative Efforts: Partnerships across disciplines and regions are vital to achieving a global ecological civilization.
• Hope Amidst Challenges: Despite formidable obstacles, the vision of an ecological civilization remains attainable through persistent and coordinated efforts.

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Notable Quotes

• Randy Hayes [00:19]: "This is not the age of ideas anymore. This is the age of implementation."
• Bill Reese [04:16]: "Consumption system and the energy production system."
• Randy Hayes [31:17]: "Democracy as we've known it has a fundamental flaw. We need ecologically informed democracy."
• Frankie Oliver [12:21]: "Rewilding because it feels like the overarching thing... shifts in agricultural and energy systems."
• Randy Hayes [33:36]: "Grab your project and run with it."

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For further information and to support the initiatives discussed in this episode, visit Rewilding Earth.

Transcript

[Randy Hayes]

The great economic ecologist in Canada, William.

[Bill Reese]

Reese, Bill Reese, he said to me the other day, he said, essentially, quit talking about what you want. Talk about how you're going to get it.

[Randy Hayes]

This is not the age of ideas anymore. This is the age of implementation. The basic ideas about what needs to.

[Bill Reese]

Be done are out there.

[Podcast Host]

You're listening to the rewilding Earth podcast.

[Narrator]

Six years ago, on episode 22, I spoke with conservation legend Randy Hayes, founder of Rainforest Action Network, as he outlined his ambitious 500 year plan for a sustainable society. Today, the stakes are higher, the urgency is greater, and Randy returns with a powerful new call to action. A roadmap to rectify humanity's relentless assault on nature. From the legendary cracking of Glen Canyon Dam alongside Dave Foreman and Edward Abbey, to decades of tireless advocacy, Randy's voice is a clarion call humanity can no longer afford to ignore. It's time to take bold, sweeping action if we're to have any chance of softening the landing from the damage already done to the planet. And Randy has a plan to do just that.

[Bill Reese]

This audience knows that humanity is destroying a livable planet. What I've been up to is essentially trying to figure out what kind of a campaign, what kind of an effort would really address that at scale and.

[Randy Hayes]

Otherwise future generations of all life don't have much of a chance.

[Bill Reese]

Right.

[Randy Hayes]

What I've come up with is that five societal systems could really lift our collective foot off the throat of nature. It would require major pressure campaigns in.

[Bill Reese]

The largest economies, like the 20 largest economies, the G20, which is not just.

[Randy Hayes]

Western Europe and North America, it's also India and China. But even that's not enough.

[Bill Reese]

It would require a massive educational effort to let people know about why this.

[Randy Hayes]

Has to be, and I'm thinking successful.

[Bill Reese]

Lawsuits against the 100 biggest polluters of the planet. Right. And that has to be amplified with.

[Randy Hayes]

The usual top down lobbying effort.

[Bill Reese]

So from the bottom up of the.

[Randy Hayes]

Campaigns to the top down, to all the way around with an educational effort, this still won't be easy. The level of change won't be easy for people or society to adjust to.

[Bill Reese]

But it's necessary if we want future generations to flourish. And so all that done with real.

[Randy Hayes]

Determination year after year could be a.

[Bill Reese]

Path to an ecological civilization. And that could be our legacy. That's what I've been up to.

[Frankie Oliver]

Is that all? So you've put you, you've continued with your very big scale thinking and I love that Chris Tompkins was on not too long ago encouraging all of us to do the very same thing. Think very big now, be very bold and I'd say what you're talking about here fits that to a T. The.

[Randy Hayes]

Five societal systems that, that I have in mind. People have their particular passions, but I.

[Bill Reese]

Come primarily with an ecological perspective.

[Randy Hayes]

And even in terms of say, the.

[Bill Reese]

Economic system I'm thinking about the biggest.

[Randy Hayes]

Short term gain would be the reduction of subsidies to all extractive industries.

[Bill Reese]

So that's not just oil and gas.

[Randy Hayes]

Or hard rock mining.

[Bill Reese]

It's also logging out of a natural.

[Randy Hayes]

Forest is an extractive industry. Industrial fishing of the oceans is an extractive industry. And so that would be one of the five systems.

[Bill Reese]

But the other systems are the energy.

[Randy Hayes]

Consumption system and the energy production system, the agricultural production system and the planet's life support system. I break the energy system into two.

[Bill Reese]

Systems because I'm sick and tired of.

[Randy Hayes]

Primarily just hearing about wind and solar are going to save the day.

[Bill Reese]

Yeah, that's not enough.

[Randy Hayes]

And that's the production system. It says nothing about the energy consumption system.

[Bill Reese]

We ought to be looking at the.

[Randy Hayes]

20 largest economies, the G20, cutting their.

[Bill Reese]

Overall energy use in half.

[Randy Hayes]

Right. Quit producing stupid stuff. This is an emergency.

[Frankie Oliver]

What would fall into the stupid stuff category for you, just off the top of your head today?

[Bill Reese]

The simplest example would be say, making plastic toys in a place like China.

[Randy Hayes]

Loading them up in super tankers to.

[Bill Reese]

Ship to all the other continents. That would be a stupid stuff example.

[Frankie Oliver]

That's a good example. Also, just back to your energy thing. That too has really driven me nuts. I think it does a lot of our listeners as well. Nobody really talks about us cutting anything. It's just on the production side, as if we don't immediately gobble up all of that new wind and solar that they bring online the minute that they do it.

[Bill Reese]

Yeah.

[Randy Hayes]

And even the wind and solar people.

[Bill Reese]

Are sucking wind, so to speak, right now because AI requires so much electricity that they're having to open re established.

[Randy Hayes]

Nuclear power plants that had been shut.

[Bill Reese]

Down to cover that energy need and energy abuse.

[Frankie Oliver]

Yeah, we have gotten pretty much in the mood for nothing that has anything to do with curtailing our use of energy or choices in buying things. And I wanted to ask you, you talked about education, you talked about the really big things that need to happen to one day arrive at something. We could call it an ecological society.

[Bill Reese]

Yeah.

[Randy Hayes]

When I talk about an educational campaign surrounding this sort of system shift, I.

[Bill Reese]

Really mean a media campaign, a communications campaign, a public relations campaign more than going to K through 12. Right. In an educational sense.

[Randy Hayes]

Of course, that needs to happen as.

[Bill Reese]

Well, but we're on a short fuse here. This is late in the 11th hour, as this audience knows. And I'm thinking my budget for the first three years was $32 million just.

[Randy Hayes]

To launch a campaign of this scale. That kind of money is sloshing around, but you have to have a serious.

[Bill Reese]

Implementation plan to access it. And we haven't gotten there yet, but that's the drive.

[Frankie Oliver]

It's pretty simple from where we sit, what needs to happen. But just a simple fact of raising an easy 32 million, which really is not that impressive of a number anymore.

[Randy Hayes]

No.

[Frankie Oliver]

Is complicated by the fact that you're trying to do it within the system. That this is going to have a insane effect on for good reasons and in a good way. But not everybody's going to see it that way.

[Randy Hayes]

They're not going to see it that way. They're going to fight.

[Bill Reese]

A lot of people are going to.

[Randy Hayes]

Fight this kind of a campaign.

[Bill Reese]

And that's just the nature of where we are on planet Earth at this point in time. It's.

[Randy Hayes]

We were born in a dark age, as my friend Ernest Columbach used to.

[Bill Reese]

Tell me back in my 20s. I didn't quite understand that, but what.

[Randy Hayes]

He really meant was the last 200 years of industrial civilization, we were in.

[Bill Reese]

Fact born in a dark age. And the momentum in the wrong direction is powerful. But that's where we're at.

[Randy Hayes]

And we either confront it, we either.

[Bill Reese]

Go for a great ecological u turn to a better world, an ecological civilization, or we perish. And I at times don't so much.

[Randy Hayes]

Know if I care whether human species.

[Bill Reese]

Perishes because we don't seem to fit on this planet.

[Randy Hayes]

We're the only species that does this level of destruction.

[Bill Reese]

But right now we need humanity to embrace that we can live in harmony with the web of life. And how do we construct that kind.

[Randy Hayes]

Of a campaign in meaningful terms?

[Bill Reese]

That's the task at hand. That's what we have to throw our shoulders behind.

[Frankie Oliver]

And with the five areas that you're talking about, they're five of the biggest areas on purpose, of how humans are affecting this planet. You talk about having detailed roadmaps in all five systems. I like the way that you use roadmap because it gives. It makes me feel like that's a plan that sounds like it's got enough detail to make sense and something that we can follow.

[Randy Hayes]

The great economic ecologist in Canada, William.

[Bill Reese]

Reese, Bill Reese, he said to me the other day, he said, essentially, quit Talking about what you want, talk about how you're going to get it.

[Randy Hayes]

This is not the age of ideas anymore. This is the age of implementation. The basic ideas about what needs to.

[Bill Reese]

Be done are out there.

[Randy Hayes]

And so how do we implement that? And roadmaps provide the level of detail.

[Bill Reese]

About how you're going to get from A to B, right, Or from A to Z. And so some of the roadmaps for these economic systems are from these different five systems have been written decently and some have not. But that doesn't mean we couldn't pull together the right people, draft the roadmaps. That'll be an ongoing process of learning and adjusting over time. There are lots of roadmaps already written for, say, 100% renewable energy. Stanford University's produced one. I think that it's faulty thinking in many respects, because if you don't reduce the amount of energy that is currently required and growing, then we're never going to get to 100% renewable energy for.

[Randy Hayes]

Quite a number of reasons. Even just the rare minerals and metals.

[Bill Reese]

Required for wind and solar are a.

[Randy Hayes]

Showstopper to getting to 100% renewable energy.

[Bill Reese]

If the pie keeps getting bigger.

[Randy Hayes]

And with my agricultural production system shifting to 100% ecological farming globally is the goal, right? The end of industrial agriculture. That roadmap has not been written. There are components of it.

[Bill Reese]

The International Society of Agroecologists have a.

[Randy Hayes]

Lot to say about what needs to be done, but there's no on the ground campaign of consequence to make that happen. And that's what has to be launched.

[Bill Reese]

And the fifth system was, I simply.

[Randy Hayes]

Call it the planet's life support system.

[Bill Reese]

But it's really protecting the web of.

[Randy Hayes]

Life by halting the pollution and the expansion into habitat primarily. And this is the stuff of nature.

[Bill Reese]

Needs half or 30 by 30, protecting 30% of the planet by 2030, and.

[Randy Hayes]

Then some would say 40 by 2040 and 50% by 2050.

[Bill Reese]

But there's science behind nature needs half, right? If you have an ecological system with unique flora and fauna and you can.

[Randy Hayes]

Protect at least 50% of that system, you might be able to protect 90%.

[Bill Reese]

Plus of the species in that system, right? So half of every continent, half of.

[Randy Hayes]

The oceans, half of every major island set aside for habitat because the web.

[Bill Reese]

Of life, particularly the insect world, is really seriously damaged. Again, this audience will know that 50 to 70% of the insect world has.

[Randy Hayes]

Disappeared on us, and that's not okay. But humanity at large doesn't realize that.

[Bill Reese]

We need the web of life for our species.

[Randy Hayes]

To exist.

[Bill Reese]

And that's part of the education campaign as well.

[Frankie Oliver]

Well, my big thing is rewilding because it feels like the overarching thing. If you're focused on that, you're going to have to have a shift in the agricultural production system, the energy production and consumption and the economic system. It doesn't get into those government subsidies necessarily, but it feels clean. Is it naive to think that way is because when you lay out your roadmap, you know what I'm going to glom onto and it's going to be the rewilding stuff and things that have to do with that.

[Randy Hayes]

Sure, there is still relatively pristine habitat to protect, but rewilding is fundamentally the.

[Bill Reese]

Name of the game in terms of the planet's life support system at this point. And I remind people often that even.

[Randy Hayes]

The term itself came from Dave Foreman. But to my understanding, he's the one.

[Bill Reese]

Who really coined that word.

[Frankie Oliver]

Yeah.

[Bill Reese]

And it's caught on around the planet.

[Randy Hayes]

Wonderfully at this point.

[Bill Reese]

I was just over a couple years ago at the Climate cop, the big annual climate meeting in Glasgow in Scotland.

[Randy Hayes]

And in Scotland there's all kinds of rerouting efforts.

[Bill Reese]

Bringing back the beaver there was very.

[Randy Hayes]

Exciting for those people. And I just keep hearing more and more about it. It's a powerful term in its own sense.

[Bill Reese]

And the roadmaps for rewilding and nature needs half, they're out there of all things. Conservation International has written a pretty good roadmap on global rerouting and priorities and areas. And it's just a wonderful.

[Randy Hayes]

Positive approach.

[Bill Reese]

But we've got to do it hand.

[Randy Hayes]

In hand with these other major system.

[Bill Reese]

Shifts or we're not going to be able to get the rewilding done.

[Randy Hayes]

In my opinion.

[Frankie Oliver]

Agriculturally, I think is probably one of the biggest and easiest ones to look at. Are we doing our food system in a way that we could be doing different and not take up the entire flyover portion of America to do it to feed ourselves or feed our animals to feed ourselves and. And then if we don't need that level of production, then it needs to be rewilded. That's the way I think of it is that how you're looking at is.

[Randy Hayes]

Shifting to 100% ecological farming globally. Right. The end of industrial agriculture is an.

[Bill Reese]

Act of rewilding in many respects. Even going from dead industrial soil to once again fertile soils is a rewilding of the soils.

[Randy Hayes]

But there's ecological farming implies a lot of other aspects of rewilding in terms of that.

[Bill Reese]

And agroecology has the word ecology in it, which is a science, really gets us back to that kind of living.

[Randy Hayes]

In harmony with the ways of nature.

[Bill Reese]

Which is in fact rewilding.

[Frankie Oliver]

Yeah, the energy production and consumption. I've already given you almost every idea that I have about that today on this show, which isn't much, it's just we're using too much and we're not talking about stopping doing that. And we use the wrong kind of energy. There's my experience with it. And I'm even a little foggier on the economic system other than, yeah, subsidies. All of that stuff seems really obvious. If it's. If we're really capitalists and we're a capitalist system, why in the world can't you be competitive enough without your subsidies?

[Randy Hayes]

I put a lot of thought for a couple of years. When I stepped down from running Rainforest.

[Bill Reese]

Action Network, I went into seven years of green city government where I was President, Commissioner of the Environment of San Francisco for five years and then Director of Sustainability for the city of Oakland when Jerry Brown, the governor.

[Randy Hayes]

But when he was mayor of Oakland.

[Bill Reese]

Right. And I had the time to think.

[Randy Hayes]

Can we ecologize capitalism?

[Bill Reese]

Conceptually, we know how to do that.

[Randy Hayes]

Herman Daly in ecological economics laid out the foundation for that.

[Bill Reese]

But I like to think of it.

[Randy Hayes]

In terms of a true cost economy. If the goods and services in the.

[Bill Reese]

Economy had to cover their pollution costs to the earth in a true cost economy, a lot of bad activity would not happen.

[Randy Hayes]

Right. In the economic system. If we reduce government subsidies to extractive industries, most of those industries would not be profitable without the subsidies.

[Bill Reese]

Guess what changes in the world of commerce. If a business is not profitable, quite a lot changes. And we know how much these industries.

[Randy Hayes]

Will try to protect their subsidies. And we've known for 20, 30, 40.

[Bill Reese]

Years that we need a campaign to cut government subsidies to the wrong activities.

[Randy Hayes]

I think the time has come where that kind of a campaign can be launched.

[Bill Reese]

Right.

[Randy Hayes]

And that would give us a much more true cost economy that would ecologize capitalism. I don't think that's the final answer.

[Bill Reese]

For the long term future of humanity and the web of life on this planet. But that's the only economic system with.

[Randy Hayes]

Any wind in its sail right now. And we've got to radically reduce the harm that it does.

[Bill Reese]

And cutting government subsidies is the biggest.

[Randy Hayes]

Ticket way to do that. It's the low hanging fruit, as they.

[Bill Reese]

Say.

[Frankie Oliver]

In one sense. But what do you say about that in light of our current political situation? The richest man in the world bought his way into the government so that he could protect his subsidies and all of the ways that his companies make money. And every one of the five systems in one way or another touch on the broligarchy who is now completely in charge of everything. And they have right now, at least on paper, the power. Because though the people have the power, the people ain't using it and they are, and they have the money and everything else. So like, how do you temper that in your own mind to go, okay, we're really going after the people who have the best way of protecting the status quo that you could ever be set up to do on this planet.

[Bill Reese]

Oh, there's no question that we've just experienced a major downshift in terms of anti nature activities and it's frightening. But on the other hand, as I've said earlier, we were born in dark times.

[Randy Hayes]

The last 200 years of industrial revolution.

[Bill Reese]

Are pretty dark times.

[Randy Hayes]

And even if you look at say the Democratic Party versus the Republican Party.

[Bill Reese]

Here in the United States, they were.

[Randy Hayes]

No bastions of ecological living.

[Bill Reese]

The Democrats, there is a distinction between the two major parties that matters. But this current downturn, it may undercut our efforts or not. It may shift in two years, four years, six years, but that's just the United States of America. And of course the United States of.

[Randy Hayes]

America is still the engines of the.

[Bill Reese]

Global economy, but there are other parts of the planet and we're talking about a global campaign here. Yeah, and I know it's, I know.

[Randy Hayes]

It looks bad because it is bad right now. It just got worse.

[Bill Reese]

On the other hand, as the cliche.

[Randy Hayes]

Goes, when the going gets tough, the tough get going.

[Bill Reese]

If you look at the European Union, there's still a lot more promise over there than there is currently here in the US And I've been in touch with a number of people over in the European Union and the UK around.

[Randy Hayes]

This kind of a campaign. The Club of Rome has a very.

[Bill Reese]

Similar idea and they published it in.

[Randy Hayes]

A book called Earth for A Survival Guide for Humanity. And that's really an update of the classic book that many of your listeners.

[Bill Reese]

Will know from Donella Meadows and others.

[Randy Hayes]

Back in 1972, a book called the Limits to Growth that showed a kind.

[Bill Reese]

Of systems modeling of the biosphere and essentially said back in 1972 that around 2050 all things are going to fall apart if and if we don't make.

[Randy Hayes]

A change from business as usual. We haven't made that change from business.

[Bill Reese]

As usual, but we still need that.

[Randy Hayes]

Great societal u turn to a better World, we need to reverse our directions. I used to talk to David Brower.

[Bill Reese]

About this when I was starting Rainforest Action Network. And he, along with luminaries like Fritjof Capra and Joanna Macy, would talk about a great U turn to the better world.

[Randy Hayes]

And I like that imagery because it's gone a fundamentally different direction.

[Bill Reese]

And so we ultimately have to go.

[Randy Hayes]

A fundamentally different direction with the economic system itself. It's gotta be shifted to an ecological economy. We've gotta go to a consumption system that's fundamentally different in the sense of low impact living. We've gotta go to an energy production.

[Bill Reese]

System that's 100% renewable and an agricultural.

[Randy Hayes]

System and the planet's life support.

[Bill Reese]

We've got to make the U turn.

[Randy Hayes]

From business as usual.

[Bill Reese]

And the thing that people like the rewilding audience, what we all have in.

[Randy Hayes]

Common, is we want to tell the ecological truth as best we can. And so that now has to get out there, outside of the preservation of wilderness circles, outside of the rewilding circles. It's got to get into the general.

[Bill Reese]

Economy and hence the idea of a massive communications and media campaign with that ecological truth talking about this great sort.

[Randy Hayes]

Of U turn to an ecological civilization.

[Bill Reese]

If we can't get that going, then.

[Randy Hayes]

I don't know what else to do.

[Bill Reese]

At this point, frankly.

[Frankie Oliver]

There are a lot of influencers out there talking about all of the topics and more that you just listed off, and they don't have the ecological education or background to necessarily be hitting all the truth points, as you said, in terms of how you get critical mass. If our campaigns go toward those influencers and getting them up to speed on what they could do to improve their message to people who may follow them in the millions.

[Randy Hayes]

Yeah, one of the major partnerships that.

[Bill Reese]

I'm looking at right now is with a woman named Frankie Oliver over in London, who's out of the kind of media communications world. She put in a couple of decades of mainstream work there, probably for the Evil Empire, but she learned a lot of the skills and she understands from.

[Randy Hayes]

A systems perspective what's needed to protect the biosphere and to make these kind.

[Bill Reese]

Of five system shifts. And she brings that sort of communication background to the table, including the influencers.

[Randy Hayes]

And wants to reach out through a.

[Bill Reese]

Lot of talk shows, including YouTube talk shows, not just the major TV and.

[Randy Hayes]

Radio talk shows, but as a way.

[Bill Reese]

To get the message out there and.

[Randy Hayes]

To help regular folks come to understand the need for this kind of a.

[Bill Reese]

Shift and focusing on the kind of.

[Randy Hayes]

Systems change, the specific system changes, and.

[Bill Reese]

Just leveling with people that, yeah, it's.

[Randy Hayes]

Going to be hard.

[Bill Reese]

There's going to be major shutdowns of significant employment industries and people are going to be out of work.

[Randy Hayes]

So how do we take care of them properly?

[Bill Reese]

There are people say at the Club of Rome, looking at basic, universal, basic.

[Randy Hayes]

Income and ways in which the social safety net legitimately takes care of people.

[Bill Reese]

If they lose their job because it.

[Randy Hayes]

Was a heavily polluting industry that had.

[Bill Reese]

To be shut down.

[Frankie Oliver]

Yeah. And we've never really been as good as those guys when they start their propaganda campaigns. We haven't traditionally answered very well with as much creativity and money and exposure. And I think that has to change too. Right. We haven't traditionally been relentless, ultra good at publicity, getting out there with a message in front of as many people as possible and doing it like they've done it. They've won the day. We've got the world systems that we do now because those guys have done a better job and had more money and resources to do an awful lot of propagandizing. And we haven't been able to fight that messaging to the point where now we have this huge population of humans that have lost their connection to nature sufficient to make them care enough to make sure that we're getting the changes that we need and get people in power that align with the beliefs of the majority, which I don't know what the majority belief is at the moment.

[Bill Reese]

The majority belief is not on our.

[Randy Hayes]

Side at the moment.

[Frankie Oliver]

I didn't want to say part of.

[Bill Reese]

The U turn shift and that's part of the media campaign that we have in mind. If I go back, say maybe even a decade, I thought that the extreme weather events like category 5 hurricanes like Katrina and Sandy might create the political will, might be scary enough to broad.

[Randy Hayes]

Enough numbers of people to create the political will for the kind of changes.

[Bill Reese]

To get our foot off the throat of nature. That didn't happen. On the other hand, the biosphere is.

[Randy Hayes]

Getting spastic and the ecospasms around the.

[Bill Reese]

Corner are going to be far greater.

[Randy Hayes]

Than the category five kind of hurricanes.

[Bill Reese]

Which are already pretty devastating if you're in that region.

[Randy Hayes]

And we're seeing that of course already across the planet. But it'll get worse. And the great fragility of industrial civilization is industrial agriculture. Because of the extreme weather events that.

[Bill Reese]

Will continue to grow. There's going to a lot of. There's going to be a reduction of production on a massive level not too.

[Randy Hayes]

Many years in the future.

[Bill Reese]

There's going to be food prices skyrocketing. They already are.

[Randy Hayes]

And that will get worse. So that's the great fragility and maybe.

[Bill Reese]

That will begin to create the political will, but only if that window of opportunity opens up.

[Randy Hayes]

We got to be ready to jump through it. And that's what these sort of five societal systems and the shift to a.

[Bill Reese]

Better world is about saying, here's the roadmap, so to speak, on getting to.

[Randy Hayes]

A better world, getting to ecological civilizations. And that's the positive nature of this campaign.

[Bill Reese]

So in many respects it could be driven as a good news effort. People aren't going to get that initially.

[Randy Hayes]

But they're eventually going to get it if we can get out there and keep pounding away to those influencers like you mentioned.

[Frankie Oliver]

Another positive thing about what you're saying is the fact that you're interested in laying out roadmaps and you're going to have a plan because people are lost at sea a little bit. I think it's incredibly positive to come from that angle and say, yeah, we have some really big changes to make, but there is a plan.

[Bill Reese]

I think in terms of that kind of planning a lot.

[Randy Hayes]

If I had my magic wand, there.

[Bill Reese]

Would be continental networks of bioregional economies.

[Randy Hayes]

Bioregional economy implies a low impact lifestyle. It implies a lot of rewilding, at least in my mind it does.

[Bill Reese]

And each continent could be 95% self.

[Randy Hayes]

Sufficient on not just food, clothing and.

[Bill Reese]

Shelter, but comfort items in life and B ecological civilizations, so to speak. What we should be trading globally in.

[Randy Hayes]

My mind, again with my magic wand.

[Bill Reese]

Would be art, culture and ideas.

[Randy Hayes]

Not so much physical stuff.

[Bill Reese]

I say 95% self sufficient in terms of each continent.

[Randy Hayes]

That leaves a little room for coffee and chocolate.

[Bill Reese]

So we don't have rebellion in the streets, but that's how the world used to live. If you go back so many hundreds of years and we could in the future, that's at least how I think in terms of planning.

[Frankie Oliver]

I looked it up. You were episode 22. You were very early in the podcast, almost six years ago and I'm looking at our topic list and I was reminded about your 500 year plan. Short term thinking we're in a different situation now than we were just six years ago. How have you changed in your outlook in terms of the difference between your 500 year plan and maybe thinking we had a little more time back then than we now know we do.

[Bill Reese]

1492, right, was Columbus's quote, discovery of.

[Randy Hayes]

America and then 500 years later there.

[Bill Reese]

Was a quincentennial and that's when I.

[Randy Hayes]

First started thinking about a 500 year.

[Bill Reese]

Plan and said people were looking at.

[Randy Hayes]

A kind of a 500 year celebration.

[Bill Reese]

Of Columbus's quote, discovery. And I thought what we really need.

[Randy Hayes]

To do is apologize to the indigenous.

[Bill Reese]

Peoples and set the historic record straight.

[Randy Hayes]

About what that meant in 1492 and.

[Bill Reese]

The subsequent 500 years.

[Randy Hayes]

But more importantly, we need to look ahead to the future, to the next.

[Bill Reese]

500 years and essentially developing an ecological.

[Randy Hayes]

Civilization here on planet Earth. Having humanity get in sync with the.

[Bill Reese]

Ways of nature and rewilding the web of life. Right.

[Randy Hayes]

So that's where that all came from. And back then we could afford to.

[Bill Reese]

Think about a soft landing. That was the catchphrase from the damage.

[Randy Hayes]

We'Re doing to a soft landing.

[Bill Reese]

Right.

[Randy Hayes]

There will be no soft landing.

[Bill Reese]

There is no time left for a to orchestrate a soft landing. Right now. We've done too much damage to, to the planet. We're already seeing it.

[Randy Hayes]

And there are major tipping points like.

[Bill Reese]

The loss of the Amazon or this.

[Randy Hayes]

Stopping of the ocean currents in the.

[Bill Reese]

Atlantic that would bring on an ice age in northern Europe if that happened.

[Randy Hayes]

The melting of the permafrost. We know the basics about these tipping.

[Bill Reese]

Points and they're just a lot closer than they were 30, 40 years ago. And so there will be no soft landing. Will there be a semi soft landing? There certainly won't be unless we can.

[Randy Hayes]

Orchestrate this kind of a major U.

[Bill Reese]

Turn that I'm talking about with these five system shifts. It's not so much about what we need to do as what we need to stop doing. Hence the image.

[Randy Hayes]

Get our foot off the throat of nature.

[Frankie Oliver]

Yeah.

[Randy Hayes]

And the downside is that in this sort of global matrix of nation states.

[Bill Reese]

A politician pretty much cannot get reelected if they tell the ecological truth. Right. Because that's not short term, that's not good news in the short term for the bulk of the constituents.

[Randy Hayes]

And so democracy as we've known it.

[Bill Reese]

Has a fundamental flaw. And so we need ecologically informed democracy and we don't have that. And hence the idea of this massive communications campaign funded. 35 million for the or 32 million. 35 million for the first three years.

[Randy Hayes]

Is just the starting point. It needs to be far better funded in that. I've been thinking in terms of say 30 full page ads in the Financial.

[Bill Reese]

Times because the captains of industry and a lot of senior government people read.

[Randy Hayes]

The Financial Times because they're focused on.

[Bill Reese]

The global economy and we still have.

[Randy Hayes]

The ethic of growth for the sake of growth. And many of your listeners will remember.

[Bill Reese]

Edward Abbey's famous statement about that growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. Abby told me that once in a van in the Southwest when I first.

[Randy Hayes]

Met him, when he first introduced me.

[Bill Reese]

To Dave Foreman and Mike Rozell and the Earth First Gang back then at.

[Randy Hayes]

The cracking of Glen Canyon Dam.

[Bill Reese]

And these are the things we have to shift.

[Frankie Oliver]

What do we do next? And how can our listeners and me support you in that endeavor?

[Bill Reese]

For the rewilding people, take a look at that Conservation International roadmap on the nature based solutions and the 3030 and rewilding.

[Randy Hayes]

It's a starting point.

[Bill Reese]

I'm sure that people will find ways to improve it. But I think that one of the five systems that I've focused on today.

[Randy Hayes]

Is the planet's life support system. And protecting habitat.

[Bill Reese]

And rewilding habitat is the main point.

[Randy Hayes]

Of focus right there.

[Bill Reese]

And so if that's your particular passion, then get serious about the roadmap.

[Randy Hayes]

If you're based here in North America.

[Bill Reese]

Then let's get even more engaged in the bold thinking of connecting up the corridors and all of that work.

[Randy Hayes]

A lot of that foundational work and thinking has been done. But again, it's not the age of idea, it's the age of implementation. Grab your project and run with it.

[Bill Reese]

And all of that adds up. But try to also start to think.

[Randy Hayes]

About the larger package that has to occur if we want to be successful with rewilding.

[Bill Reese]

And that goes back to the economic.

[Randy Hayes]

System itself and getting rid of subsidies, that goes back to the energy consumption system and cutting the manufacturing of useless.

[Bill Reese]

Stuff, that goes to the energy production.

[Randy Hayes]

And the 100% renewable energy. And it certainly goes to the agricultural production system and the ending industrial agriculture. Industrial agriculture is still the number one cause of the extinction of species.

[Bill Reese]

And yet you don't hear that typically from the environmental movement in general. And being a tree hugger like I.

[Randy Hayes]

Am and the save the rainforest work that I did at Rainforest Action Network, I didn't take on agriculture as much.

[Bill Reese]

As I should have. But that lesson's learned and we have to now. And so hence it's why one of the five points of focus I remember.

[Frankie Oliver]

One of the greatest arguments against if you did bring up industrial agriculture, the thing that you would hear is do you want food prices to skyrocket? And now since we're at the inflection point of food prices skyrocketing and that argument is completely moot, maybe people will be in a Better mood to hear ideas on how to restructure all of this and, and, and do it ecologically with nature in mind and in partnership with nature. Because we're already paying skyrocketing prices. It took their main argument, the wind, out of their sails. Maybe we should take advantage of that.

[Randy Hayes]

I mean, if you cut the subsidies to extractive industries, just hypothetically, say 10%.

[Bill Reese]

A year for 10 years, half of that.

[Randy Hayes]

And you took half of that money.

[Bill Reese]

And shifted it over to ecological farming.

[Randy Hayes]

And made it incentives for the shift to ecological farming, we could probably keep.

[Bill Reese]

The price of food tolerable.

[Randy Hayes]

And so that would be part of the package.

[Bill Reese]

That's part of the great U turn.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Frankie Oliver]

As everyone should know by now, unless you're a new listener, a lot of the things that we talked about, especially the reports. Other links are going to be on the extra credit section on the page of this episode. So go to rewilding.org podcast and you can very easily look up Randy Hayes. Find this episode and his other episodes still relevant. You should probably listen to that one too, because very much relevant to today's discussion. And I'll give you a little bit of perspective on Randy's consistency as a systems thinker. We're looking for your leadership, as we always have, Randy, and very much appreciate the work that you're doing. And any way we can help you, we're there for you.

[Bill Reese]

All right. I look forward to a third installment.

[Randy Hayes]

When this effort's a little bit farther.

[Bill Reese]

Down the line and there are more specific ways for people to plug into it. But as I mentioned, the rewilding work.

[Randy Hayes]

Is fundamentally important right now.

[Bill Reese]

It inspires people, it's catching wind in its sail around the world and that's.

[Randy Hayes]

Really exciting to me.

[Bill Reese]

I'm so happy to be on this.

[Randy Hayes]

Rerouting Institute podcast and to still be hanging out with you all because it was fundamental to my life and to.

[Bill Reese]

My work going back to when I first helped make the cracking of Glen.

[Randy Hayes]

Canyon Dam with Edward Abbey and Earth.

[Bill Reese]

First, that little 11 minute film back in, back in the, in those days. And it was so exciting to hang out with the kind of conservation biologists that were being covered in the Earth first journal.

[Randy Hayes]

Those. I've learned a lot from those people. And now we've got to put it into practice.

[Frankie Oliver]

Paddle forward, as Nancy Morton would say. Thank you, Randy. Really appreciate it and definitely I look forward to the third installment.

[Bill Reese]

Let's get this package of activities moving forward. Let's make the great U turn. Let's build the better world.

[Randy Hayes]

We need ecological civilizations.

[Bill Reese]

We need it in our lifetime. But certainly future generations require that something like this happens.

[Randy Hayes]

And I don't mean just future generations.

[Bill Reese]

Of us humans, future generations of all life on Earth.

[Podcast Host]

Thanks for listening to the Rewilding Earth Podcast. We do what we do because of you. This podcast is supported by listeners like you who long to live in a wilder world. Please consider [e-mail] and subscribe to our weekly News and Article Digest while you're there to go the extra mile, you can follow and share Rewilding Earth on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Bonus points for sharing this podcast with your friends. To listen to past episodes, go to rewilding.org pod that's rewilding.org pod.