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Rewilding Earth Podcast
Episode 161: Danny Giovale – The Vision to Innovate, the Passion to Rewild
00:43:16
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- [00:04]
A
It was total hubris and audaciousness to be trying to climb a 1500 foot, you know, tall tower in the Italian Dolomites. Not having climbed there before, not having climbed anything that difficult or that long before. Going with my younger brother who was three and a half years younger than me and had climbed even less than me. But at the same time, there was an interest in going to that place that, you know, maybe call it a personality disorder. But, yeah, I want to try something, you know, really different and really challenging. And I think we can do this.
- [01:12]
B
You're listening to the Rewilding Earth podcast. I'm your host, Jack Humphrey. What if a single terrifying moment, a split second decision on a 1500 foot tower of rock became the defining moment, changing the course of your life? For today's guest, Danny Giavalli, it did. In 1993, a climbing trip in the Italian Dolomites turned into a near death experience. Now the subject of his film Designed by Disaster. But this isn't just a survival story. It's a moment that forged a life of purpose that would weave invention with a deep personal commitment to conservation. Danny is the founder of the outdoor gear company Katula. And his pivotal experience in the Dolomites didn't just give him an idea for a product now used by adventurers around the world. It gave him the determination to build a company that, like Patagonia, would have conservation at its very core. In this episode, we talk about why outdoor adventure legends from Yvon Chouinard to Doug Tompkins to Danny himself share a profound land ethic. And if you stick around to the end, we might just invent a new product live on the air to solve borderlands wildlife connectivity. Design by Disaster is the film that you have on your site at Cotoola. I love the movie and I just want you to talk a little bit about how that affected really your whole life.
- [02:38]
A
Yeah, for sure. I was 22 years old, 1993, when my brother Mike, who was just 19 at the time, went to Italy and had this epic adventure that, yeah, the film kind of goes through, which almost lost my life and was really pivotal in setting a direction and giving me purpose going forward from there. I think what, what's important, I guess for me is that I got to go back and revisit that climb 30 years later and make this film about it. And it was just really nice to come full circle and, you know, if you've ever revisited a place where, yeah, things could have gone a different direction, it's. For me, it was closing A loop. It was a powerful thing. And reflecting on what's happened in that 30 years and, you know, it ended up being the catalyst to start this company and get a product out there to try to make people safer and help people avoid that same kind of situation. Really satisfying. And I still get a little bit, like, emotionally engaged when I see the film. Obviously, I've seen it a gazillion times because they do different screenings and share it with people. And it's always interesting how. Yeah, it. It really reminds me every single time how lucky I was and how lucky.
- [03:57]
B
The world became, because out of that came a product. What did it feel like to go instantly just go, wow, this is a hole in the market. There's nothing I. I really could use something that doesn't exist right now.
- [04:10]
A
It's interesting that you asked, because nobody around me saw the hole in the market the way I did. I felt a little bit alone in that sense. Every time I talked about it or showed prototypes, it was like, isn't there already, like, a bunch of different crampons out there and different things for this? And the thing that I saw that really people weren't totally understanding was that there was a big gap between the type of footwear that those crampons worked with, which was, like, the more rigid, you know, boots. And I wanted to get something working better on flexible footwear that you're more commonly using in light and fast kind of mountain adventures. And. And then, of course, the products that do work on those more flexible footwear back then were more pedestrian. You know, going to your mailbox and shoveling your driveway. They worked okay for that, but they weren't really reliable for the serious mountain environment. And, yeah, I had to persist in that. And I honestly think if I hadn't had that accident, I wouldn't have been so determined and dogged because I. I got dissuaded a lot by people not really thinking that there was much room there. Now we are, you know, what, 26 years in, because we founded Kahtoola 99. And, you know, it took, you know, four or five years of that to really hit its stride and hit the market sweet spot to where we were able to make a product that really delivered that to that gap in the market. And then, of course, at that point, it's. Of course, there was a gap in the market. It's obvious, you know, good job for filling it. But it was a very. And it's interesting because I definitely encourage people. A lot of people like to ask me when they have an idea, you know, hey, you know, I have this idea about something, you know, I want to talk to you because you've done it. And I find myself in the shoes of other people. Wow. I take an example of a, an innovative horseshoe their friend came to me with using a different material set. And I said, I don't know anything about horses and isn't there a million horseshoes out there already? And I don't know what exactly your invention, you know, how successful it could be. So then I was having to be careful to not be the, the naysayer for other people seeking advice. Because I remember when you're the one who has the insight, it's not always obvious to others because it doesn't exist, you know, so you're creating something that doesn't exist, which is like a new part in your brain that has to get developed. And so it's always clear in hindsight, it's not always clear looking ahead. So.
- [06:49]
B
Well, as you're talking, I'm thinking, I wonder if Sule and Renas and Dave Foreman had any things like that with rewilding and getting all of that started. Like there wasn't anything in the market like it. If you look at the conservation movement as a market. Yeah, yeah, I bet you. Well, I really would like to ask Dave that question. Ask, read.
- [07:11]
A
And I think you can see a little bit in, you know, a little bit of personalities there. It definitely takes an independent minded person to stick to that because if you're looking for validation from others, you're not going to get it. You're going to have to wait years or more. And so you can see it in people like that are pioneering new ideas and new areas. It is a certain person that is okay with that.
- [07:38]
B
There are a lot of people in the world who are part of or who have founded companies with new ideas and become successful, that never talk about conservation, that don't have a land ethic, that have never read Sand County Almanac, that, you know what, what is it with you guys? The ones who do you. And I was going to say at the top of it, before we started, I'm like, Chouinard and Tompkins, Patagonia and North Face are maybe a coincidence, but when you add Giovalli into the mix, it starts to look suspicious. What is it about you guys that gives you this strong conservation ethic and also kick butt at business?
- [08:18]
A
First of all, it's fun to hear you put me in the lineup with Tompkins and Chouinard. Definitely want to send that sound Bite to my mom. But yeah, they're the giants and they're inspiration. And Yvonne in particular has been him and his work. And I have had a chance to meet him and work with several people that work close with him and read his books. And yeah, you know, there's definitely again, there's an independent mindedness for sure with both those guys. And you know, being outside, being physically engaged with the activities in wild environments. Unpredictable. You know, there's this part in the film that Sinard was in not too long ago. Is it 180 degrees south? I'm not sure where they go climbing a mountain, 70s or something, and they're bushwhacking through this jungle. There's no route up this mountain. It might be the mountain. Did they name that after Tompkins? I can't remember, but it was a special mountain that hadn't been climbed, I think. And anyway, his point was they're rolling the camera when it's like the worst moment of this climb. They're just going through this thick brush and trying to get their backpacks through and they're struggling and doesn't look very fun, doesn't look good. And Yvonne just says this is where adventure begins, you know, and it's. That kind of perspective and attitude is not what a lot of, let's call it normal people would, would gravitate to. They would want to avoid that at all costs. Right. They want the beaten path, the cleared path, all the data and the GPS track and you know, all the comments that you can read about how, what gear to take and how long it took us and what's the fastest time. It's the complete opposite. It's that pioneering attitude and that we're in the thick of it. This is really hard. There's no certainty of success. And I love it here, you know, and I think that's where you get that similarity there with Tompkins and Chouinard. And in my small case here, you know, just, you know, I'm definitely in that case. I was, you know, my early 20s, I hadn't climbed anything like that. It was total hubris and audaciousness to be trying to climb a 1500 foot, you know, tall tower in the Italian Dolomites. Not having climbed there before, not having climbed anything that difficult or that long before. Going with my younger brother who was, you know, three years, three and a half years younger than me and had climbed even less than me, you know, it was definitely a little bit audacious and but at the same time there was an interest in going to that place that, you know, maybe call it a personality disorder. But, yeah, I want to try something, you know, really different and really challenging, and I think we can do this. So I'm not sure what, you know, how I could truly draw similarities between those guys because they're absolute legends and heavy hitters, but those are one with another legend.
- [11:26]
B
Because I'm just going to keep pushing this until you do understand you belong in this group, at least in my mind and in many people's minds. But our own former director of Rewilding Institute, John Davis, one time, years ago. I've always been the content guy at Rewilding, and I. I guess I was. The way I remember it is I was looking for just ways to get John out front and center. He was doing one of the treks, Trek East, Trek west, something like that. And we had this meeting and he came in with this big external frame backpack. And I'm like, john, it'd be a really great idea if you just like, you know, I've got my camera and everything here and we can just dig through. How many people would love to see what John Davis has in his backpack for surviving all this stuff you do, Bike packing, bike rafting, hiking crazy distances and everything. And he just looked at me like I was an alien from another planet. Who would be interested in that? And I bring that up because it's, in some sense, you've got to have the right tools for the job, but the tools for the adventurers don't seem to be as important as the adventure itself. He's. I'm thinking he's mad because I'm not asking him a specific question at the moment about his adventure itself.
- [12:38]
A
Right.
- [12:39]
B
Dig around in his backpack. Who would like to. Who would be interested in that? And apparently with the 10 million videos on YouTube and blog posts and everything else about gear ad infinitum, a lot of people would have been. But I couldn't convince John of that.
- [12:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, I'm glad that you brought up John because John is the lightning rod here for me in. In connecting with Rewilding Institute and growing my passion and interest in helping with the rewilding efforts that Rewilding Institute and others have undertaken. And John is like the most humble legend ever, as you well know. And. And that I got to connect with John by his Trek west adventure. Gosh, it's been about 10 years ago now where he was coming through northern Arizona, and Kelly Burke, my dear friend, has connected me with John, and I got to join him for part of his hike. We went climbing up on the, the peaks area here by Flagstaff and just made, you know, a long time friend. Very quickly John and I just immediately became besties and I've since done Alaska Adventures and Gila Wilderness Adventures and, and we're planning more in the future. But yeah, I would just want to shout out to John because, you know, your point about asking about his gear, he clearly is. He's got a big view about what he's doing on the ground out there. He's got a purpose. He's really engaged with what's meaningful in and connecting, you know, creating wildlife corridors, connecting people who can make that happen, changing hearts and minds over how, you know, animals should be able to move on the landscape. And he is so deeply focused in that way that, yeah, when you ask him about gear and whatnot, it's not really, it's not really his purpose place, you know.
- [14:45]
B
Yeah, that content never did happen. I never got a peek into his backpack at all. It just completely flew away like a feather on the window.
- [14:53]
A
But I gotta, I gotta tell one quick story that relates to Kahtula here because John, because he spends, you know, he's thousands of miles on his feet doing these things, I'm interested in what gear he uses too. And when I was watching him on that trip, I was noticing some of the struggles he was having with his gators and it actually spurred me to do deeper research into the gator market and find that there was really like a gap in some functionality where they were popping up over the heel of the shoe or not fitting well, not easy to put on. And I actually ended up over a period of years developing prototypes and testing. And now we are in the gator market and I think we're like the number two branded gator in North America now. And that's really because watching John and him putting his gear through his paces and trying to think of how I could create gear that could keep up with him. That's a fun little John Davis and Kahtula.
- [15:54]
B
I would have never remembered to ask that question. I'm so glad you brought it up because I remember looking through the website and going, I can see how gators and spikes go together. We're talking about below the knee. You know, there's a lot of business to be done down there, but how in the world is it that it's gators? And now we know.
- [16:13]
A
Yes, where the heck did that come from?
- [16:15]
B
It's such a, it's such a similar, you know, in an area product, but so radically different. Like, why did he choose that? Now the world knows.
- [16:23]
A
Good. Yes. Yep. It's our Renegade that is specifically designed around his. His kind of use. And it's what I. Is my favorite gear and one I use on my Grand Canyon off trail adventure. So there you have it. John Davis.
- [16:37]
B
Awesome.
- [16:38]
A
Created just by following him around.
- [16:40]
B
You heard it here, folks.
- [16:42]
A
That's right.
- [16:44]
B
So this is probably. I don't know if you have one of these. A lot of people, a lot of people are very fond of asking this question of each other in the conservation movement around campfires and conferences and things when they're getting to know each other. But growing up in the Southwest, growing up in Arizona, is there a spot in your history that you can pinpoint that really, when you think back on it was the beginning of it all in your conservation, just giving a damn. And, and that's followed you through your whole life because I imagine you have a lot of experiences you talk about. I would. I envy you so much. I grew up in Indiana. I can't imagine growing up in Arizona.
- [17:21]
A
Yeah, yeah. I would say growing up in Flagstaff, we do have this wonderful situation where we're surrounded by national forest and we're in the middle of the largest ponderosa pine forest in, in America. And growing up with kind of no boundaries, you know, you can just go. And there's forest service roads and the forest is easy to walk through without trails. And of course, there are some trails too. And you know, our upbringing was. We weren't associated with any church or anything. And I asked my mom and her kids, like, oh, my friends are going to church. That sounds fun. She's. No, we, we go to the church of the mountain. You know, we go outside. You know, we're outside on the weekends and that's our sort of religion. And it's fun to look back on that. It was just like the water that you swim in. It's. Isn't that the way it is for everybody? And then as you get older, you go, oh, wow, like, how lucky were we to just have endless forest access? And then for me, that kind of was just a lucky upbringing. And then really, I think what accelerated my interest in conservation, my grandparents would always take us into the Wind River Mountains in Wyoming. Starting in age 5, we could join these trips and, and that was truly the life changing experience of having unsupported, self supported, sort of backpacking 10 days into the wilderness is, is an experience of self reliance and engaging with really rugged wild landscapes. And then being there with your Family to work together, figure it out. And you know, there's definitely times where everybody's struggling and then times when you're having a good time. And you know, and my grandfather was also very interested in preservation of these wild places and wilderness in particular. And actually my, both Bill and Viv were very much that way and had grown up in the west near those mountains and the Uinta Mountains as well. And so I gleaned that from them and from those trips and that kind of set the sort of inner sort of belief system, if you will, about how important and amazing these places are and realizing I was really lucky to be able to experience those. A lot of people don't get to experience those and therefore they don't know they need to be protected. So I just had that ingrained in me from a young age and that those were the kind of the things that set me up for the kind of receptivity to the work that I've done, tried to engage in now, which.
- [19:59]
B
I guess probably means it was a no brainer to connect your philanthropy and your business and your love of the outdoors, wildness altogether. I imagine that was a pretty natural thing to happen as it evolved.
- [20:17]
A
Yeah, it was. It's interesting because. So when I was in college, I went to Westminster University in Salt Lake and I studied physics. Took me five years to get through it all because I didn't have enough math when I started. I did not study business. I was not interested in business, even though kind of had a family business around me. And you know, our family was never business for business's sake. It was always more of a purpose driven kind of idea. And when I got through Westminster, and then I actually had that dolomite accident while I was a student, you know, on the summer break between my, I guess it was my junior and senior, one of my senior years. And so when it comes to starting a business, I actually a little bit like the Yvonne Sinard attitude. Isn't business the thing that's ruining the planet? And I was really grateful for his perspective of it's up to us as a business, let's decide how we are as a business. Let's just say what we do with our resources and how we act. And he was a great sort of voice in outdoor industry, for business can be a force for good. And so when I started my business, I took, you know, a page from that and, you know, immediately had a percentage of revenue going towards what we, in the beginning was cultural preservation in the Himalayas, which was based on my interest in Tibetan Buddhism, and the idea that it's really our minds that are underlying all of the outward problems, and if we could make ourselves more content by maybe taking some notes from these ancient cultures, that we'd all be a little better off. So that's where I started with connecting my business to a purpose that, you know, helped drive some other impact besides just selling product. And eventually we evolved into being a member of 1% for the planet, which, of course, is how Yvonne saw what he called the cost of doing business. You know, it's, hey, we're on this planet, we're using resources. Every business should be pitching back in percentage of their sales to help mitigate and improve that. So I was definitely drinking that Kool Aid by the gallon, and I try to implement that to this day.
- [22:40]
B
You're an inventor, so it would be really nice if you could invent some Kool Aid. We could give everyone for mindfulness and the teachings that you so adore, and so do I. Because I think the same way, I think if the world was just a little bit more mindful, a little bit more working on themselves in that way, that would be incredible. I know you would have invented that by now if you could.
- [23:07]
A
Yeah, I'm working on it. The problem is, every recipe I come up with, it only works for about 10 minutes, you know, and then you get a hangover. Yeah. Yeah.
- [23:17]
B
We all, I think, can feel pretty small. And unless you're the size of a musk or some sort of billionaire, that would magically also have your conservation ethic. We're in a world where we feel powerless right now. Especially right now where the conservation movement has always been under attack, or the places we want to protect and that we love have always been under attack. But it sure feels worse now than ever. How do you deal with that? How does your company deal with that? I imagine you have to deal with stuff in the office and with people just being bummed.
- [23:51]
A
Yeah.
- [23:52]
B
Which is probably not a question you ever get asked, but, yeah, you know, we're all going through it. We have to have little sessions just at the Rewilding Institute to check in and see how everybody's doing. How are you guys doing?
- [24:03]
A
Yeah, I really appreciate the question. And I also feel like, you know, for the audience that we have here, it's. It's a really important question that we're all asking ourselves. Right. I can say we just had a foundation meeting yesterday. There's eight family members on the board, and this. This challenge of not falling totally into despair is real, because just like you said, you know, it seems like in the past we've been able to work on issues and see some progress regardless of the political swings. And now the fundamental structures underlying and how the government backs up so much of the work that we try to do in the conservation or social justice realms is it has very little backup or it's being dismantled or it's chaotic and there's all that. I, I saw it in our meeting yesterday. Some of us were visibly shaken by the feeling of despair around trying to make a difference. And I'll just give one anecdotal thing. There's some, you know, education is big part of what we try to support in various ways. And we're dealing with a local school that family member supports through the foundation. And they, because of loss of government programs that help support the charter school, they are putting some of the grant funds into janitorial and landscaping because they've had to let go the janitorial landscaping because the next thing is the teachers and they have to have teachers for the students. And this is just a really bitter pill to swallow. It's not like the high impact statement, you know, takeaway that we want to have for our foundation, but those are the types of things. And then over on the Kahula side, you know, we're still doing, we still have the structures, you know, where we give our 1% and we have committee that makes those grants and everything's still intact. But it is, it's hard sometimes. But I would say on the Kahtula side, we're just staying the course. And we really appreciate the organizations that help. Like the Conservation alliance is a really well organized aspect of our industry efforts. And having an organization that has strategy, a plan, budget that is still intact to a degree, able to still organize and do things, is really stabilizing an island of sanity in all this. It's in those organizations that are able to keep going. I really hope, whatever that's worth, that this is a pendulum swing that we're all somewhat familiar with that is going to swing back the other way. And when it does, we want to be able to be on the offense and not just be in the defensive position we've been in lately. And when we are in that position, what are we ready to do? So that's that kind of hopeful piece of it is. Okay, this is terrible, but let's prepare for when it's not for me that will just help me stay sane, help us all feel like we have purpose. And I hope it actually means that when that day comes. And if that day comes, we really will make more of a difference in the other direction. So those are like the anecdotal things for my world. I can just tell you there's a lot of struggle for sure.
- [27:39]
B
Yeah. Yeah, thank you for that. Because that's, you know, I think one way of dealing with everything is pretending like it's okay or just not bringing up the topic at all. And I don't know what's healthy and what's not, but I just don't see the health value in that is because, you know, if everybody's pretending like everything, you know, we don't, we won't talk about that. I don't know how everyone's getting ready for that pendulum swing, the next direction and, and our preparedness for that moment. Because that's going to be, if that moment comes, one hell of a moment in the history of conservation. That's going to be. So that actually makes me feel better that you're thinking about that other swing.
- [28:24]
A
We have to hold on to the threads we can, man.
- [28:28]
B
Okay, let's pivot. Let's get a little bit away from the heavier stuff. And are you guys making impacts on other companies that might be developing stronger conservation work?
- [28:39]
A
Yeah, I think there's always been a percentage of companies that are open and supportive of that type of thinking and there's always a larger percentage of companies who are just like a bottom line oriented business. Very few businesses are independently owned. Our business is one of very few. We hear that from buyers all the time, that most of their brands have been bought up by these conglomerates and, and, and so it's a little, you know, more rare to have a company that can really stick to a conservation ethic through political heat and willing to, you know, talk about preserving public lands that not all their stakeholders might agree is the best thing. You know, it's, you know, Yvonne was always able to just say what he felt because he's the owner and I'm on a tinier scale, you know, the same way with our little 20 people and our small business. But there's, it's nice to have that autonomy to do that. So when you ask, you know, what do you hear from others in the industry? I think, you know, reps and people who are out there talking, of course they always support the conservation oriented things, but when you get to other ownership constellations with boards and conglomerates and stuff, those actions that they would take as a company become quickly, like few and far between, because at the end of the day, they're businesses trying to grow and make money or even survive. Sometimes the outdoor industry in general I think just has that makeup. And so we like to think that we're super green, but it's, it's harder to see true examples of that. And I would just shout out again to the Conservation alliance because if you want to know who's really doing it and putting their money where their mouth is, see who is a member of the Conservation alliance because that cost real money to be a member. Thousands of dollars at the least and tens of thousands depending on how big you are. All that money goes straight into grants that are for the programmatic conservation efforts. And you know, that's a great kind of pool. And actually I wish I had the statistics off the top of my head, like what percentage of the outdoor industry companies are members of the Conservation Alliance? I'm guessing it's like around 1%. So that means you've got, you know, 90 plus percent of people who, they might give it lip service but they're not really doing it, you know. You know, I think that's my, hopefully not too negative of a view of the outdoor industry. But people have their financial interest and they have to, you know, work on that.
- [31:26]
B
I was going to ask you about what you would like to see just improved or what you think the, the industry could do or get better or get more involved with. And I think you just answered that with the 1% thing. I don't think 1% for the planet was meant to say that we only need 1% of the companies to be involved in planet wide conservation.
- [31:47]
A
Yeah, and just to clarify, there's two different things. There is 1% for the planet, which is exactly what you said. It's a membership based. 1% of your revenue has to go towards qualified 501s that that organization vets. And then the other is a Conservation alliance which is typically a much more expensive sort of proposition for companies to, to get into. And then that money goes into those grant pools. So two different entities there.
- [32:18]
B
Yeah. Do you have any crazy ideas that you wouldn't talk about on any other podcast or TV interview that maybe feel a little too dreamy to talk about in front of a huge audience? I'll tell half of our audience to just not listen for the next one minute and you can tell us your big moonshot that you think about all the time?
- [32:39]
A
Oh yeah. What about a ski area that's totally human powered, take away all the lifts? That, that's, that is a pipe dream that I ruminate on different way of recreating completely. We have so many athletic people these days. You know, we have an uphill event in February that's a fundraiser for an environmental camp that the elementary kids go to. And you know, we get three to 400 people hiking up and running down, skinning up, skiing down the mountain. We just have so many athletic people who don't really need lifts, you know, so there's one for you.
- [33:18]
B
I love that. That's just completely out of. I would have never guessed that one. That's awesome.
- [33:24]
A
Yeah. And there was one, it was called Bluebird Backcountry that ran for several years up in Colorado. And super cool idea. So I'm not totally original in that, but it's just a different way of thinking about it. You know, other pipe dreams are right along the alley of what you guys at Rewilding Institute, John Davis and now Turtle Southern and crew are working on, which is these, you know, having scaled wildlife corridors, continental scale wildlife corridors, and all the little interactive connective pieces that we need to do. Just south of Flagstaff right now we have a wildlife overpass over, I guess it's i17 that's relatively new. And it just blows my mind that's that happened. Like people. There's enough support for that kind of thing to spend whatever it costs millions of dollars probably to do that. I wouldn't have expected that. And I'm just jumping on the pipe dream of what a lot of other, you know, excellent visionaries have, have put out there. And that whole, you know, continental scale wildlife corridors and coexisting with creating, you know, trails through those that also coexist well with the wildlife and reintroducing these kind of species that are at the top of the food chain and creating a more robust and viable population of those, whether it's wolves or jaguars or you know, depending on where you're at and just not seeing the further fragmentation and further extinction of these species, I think is, you know, it's something that resonates with me and so many others, but we need to make that even more. Yeah, that's a couple of of things that I, I get inspired by.
- [35:22]
B
In addition to your forthcoming Kool Aid invention, the Mindfulness, I would like you to add to your list a device or some sort of invention that allows wildlife to get through the border fence. And especially I'm thinking about jaguars. But just if you see those sad videos down there where something's trying to go in a direction and it's just stopped dead in its tracks and Sometimes literally dead in its tracks trying to get across the border where the fence is. I would love to see something happening that would be really great. And I hear there's really good government funding for things like that.
- [35:57]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [35:59]
B
Throwing money at that wall.
- [36:01]
A
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Wow. I mean, you're. It's just a brutal, industrialized thing to have that wall the way it is. And yeah, we're all with you on that. And to me, it's about the pendulum swing. And it just sucks because we're basically wasting so many resources building and I hope to see tearing down, you know, in the future. So it's just, it's kind of like the government shutdowns. It's. Whoever's in power is going to, you know, put it to the other one and we're just going to waste resources and make people suffer in this sort of pendulum swing. And I guess the dream would be that we can, you know, calm those swings down the pendulum and have some long term, you know, consistency. But, but yes, I will, I'll do what I can on the invention side there. I think it might.
- [36:49]
B
How about a jaguar shaped hole? Did we just invent a hole? Is that what was just invented here? We just invented holes. Yeah, but they're in the shape of the species that are allowed to go back and forth.
- [37:00]
A
I'm sure we could patent that. Yes, it will be.
- [37:03]
B
We've patented the shape.
- [37:04]
A
Yeah. Come for inventor. How is there as witness. We got all the podcast listeners as witnesses. That. That's a good one. Wow.
- [37:12]
B
I didn't think I was going to walk out of this with a product. This is awesome.
- [37:16]
A
Yeah, Love it.
- [37:17]
B
Okay, so what about people who really like what they've heard today? Young people? What if you were to give your younger self guidance and they were faced with the world they're faced with and they're in college and they're not really sure they want to do any of the things that are on the list of opt after they graduate. And they really like what you're doing. What would you say to them?
- [37:38]
A
Yeah, I think that the, the underlying message that carries through a bit for me is that you, you don't really know at first what it is that you have particular sort of insight to that others don't. And sometimes when you do have those insights, they get, I know, pulled away from you because people talk you out of it. And I guess, you know, in my case, I was glad I didn't get talked out of that. And I think a lot of it is for you to find that thing. And it's hard to know because in my case, I felt like everybody would see it the same way. And it seems obvious, but when I don't get that reinforcement from others, then it sets you in that question of, well, am I off base?
- [38:24]
B
It sounds like your family has had an awful lot to do with helping shape, of course, who you are. And we didn't talk about it, but I sure do read an awful lot between the lines with the film, but also just in other ways, just how important support from family can be. And if somebody doesn't have that support, then it probably could be a little bit harder.
- [38:46]
A
Yeah, yeah. Support from family is. And close friends, anyone who can be your ally and. And be with you through the uncertainty, I think is really valuable. And also just finding a way for you to be there for yourself, to believe in your. Yourself, even when your closest friends and family are questioning you. And how do you, you know, go through that process for yourself to decide that you're going to try something? You know, and there's lots of ways that you can decide to try something without too much consequence. Right. Even if you're not quitting your job or you still have, you know, gainful employment, but you can spend time experimenting and learning and trying something that it might cost you, you know, a few hundred dollars or might, you know, maybe you need to borrow some from somebody or try something. I still feel like, you know, don't let that. Those ideas and that perspective die or get pulled away from you. Do what you need to do to protect that and let that keep growing. It's like a creative process. Right. And so I feel like when you're trying to figure out your path and going forward, just keep learning, figuring out ways that you're developing yourself, and just look for those things that you're having insight on. That doesn't mean you have to be the only one with that insight. It's okay if it's shared too, but you'll notice, I think, if you pay attention, that a lot of people have great ideas that all sound good, but they never do anything about it. And so you have the opportunity to decide, why not me? I'll do it. You know, and so I think that's also where people get differentiated, is I'm not like the smartest person in the room, like, ever, if there's two people in the room, when there's one person in the room, I do. I am the smartest. But. Yeah, but beyond that. But I think what I've benefited from is this process we're talking about of just finding that thing that. That either other people are just talking about, but they're not really doing or. Or just believing in that opportunity that I think is there and deciding to try it. Like, what do I have to lose? I do have a little bit. I could lose a little bit for sure. But, like, how much am I able to lose and be okay? And that was the calculus that helped. Take one step at a time towards trying it. So those are some of the sort of points I'd like to share.
- [41:10]
B
Yeah, thank you for that. And I'm so thankful, too, that you didn't say that one requirement would be that you have to slide halfway down the Dolomites to. To really know, solidify in your mind what you were going to do with the rest of your life.
- [41:24]
A
I can't totally recommend that. Although if you could be pretty sure that you're going to be okay, then maybe I would recommend it. But that's pretty hard to. Hard to do.
- [41:33]
B
That's crazy, because over the years, one man's near disaster. It could be an Olympic event. Now it's. Yeah, we just have this slide. We luge down this very dangerous thing and we can't see. Of course, you're not allowed to see. And then the guy who, you know, does the best wins the medal.
- [41:49]
A
Yeah, it could be like a gift. You know, you give someone this like, gift card and they. And they don't know what this. What's going to happen, but this is going to be a life changing event. And you go, and then you and I figure out how we scare them to death and make them think that they almost died. And it will change their Life. And then 10 years later, they will thank us so much. Yeah. Yeah.
- [42:13]
B
It's just those first nine years, they're going to be really pissed.
- [42:16]
A
Yeah, exactly. But they get through the therapy and their business starts doing okay, then we can tell them it was all set up. Yes.
- [42:25]
B
Danny, I've had such a blast talking to you. I'm glad we finally got to meet. And I'm glad the listeners who weren't all caught up on Kahula and you and your foundation got to hear more about that today. And I thank you so much for taking the time to be here.
- [42:41]
A
Thanks, Zach. It's been a pleasure.
- [42:43]
B
Thanks for listening to the Rewilding Earth podcast. We do what we do because of you. This podcast is supported by listeners like you who long to live in a wilder world. Please consider donating@rewilding.org and subscribe to our weekly News and Article Digest While you're there to go the extra mile, you can follow and share Rewilding Earth on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Bonus points for sharing this podcast with your friends. To listen to past episodes, go to rewilding.org pod that's rewilding.org pod.