Episode Overview

Podcast: Rewilding Earth
Episode: 162: Inside Dave Parsons’ Battle to Bring Back El Lobo and the Decades of Carnivore Advocacy That Followed
Host: Jack Humphrey
Guest: Dave Parsons, former leader of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's Mexican Wolf Recovery Program
Date: November 28, 2025

This episode delves into the pivotal, decades-long efforts to restore the Mexican Gray Wolf ("El Lobo") to the American Southwest, focusing on Dave Parsons’ leadership. The discussion explores the bureaucratic, scientific, and deeply personal challenges of carnivore restoration, the political and social landscape of wolf recovery, philosophies of effective conservation, and reflections on what it means to fight for wild nature over a lifetime.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins and Struggles of Mexican Wolf Recovery

[02:41 – 08:05]

• Dave Parsons’ Start (1990):
  Parsons recounts how he became the first person to head the Mexican Wolf Recovery Program, an effort that faced initial opposition from state and federal agencies.

  "The federal agency U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service had made an announcement that they were just going to give up on Mexican wolves and terminate the project... That sparked the very first lawsuit of many, many more that succeeded to get the project on track." (A, 02:41)

• Legal Mandates: The Endangered Species Act forced agency commitment, despite reluctance.

  "They had an obligation that couldn't be avoided under the Endangered Species Act." (A, 04:02)

• Political vs. Scientific Tensions:
  Parsons faced pressure to recommend ecologically inappropriate sites (e.g., White Sands Missile Range), due to back-room deals and political considerations, but persisted in following the science.

  "Our team decided to follow the science which is what's required... and we just couldn't make that happen." (A, 07:12)
  "That pesky science always getting in the way of political ideologies and goals." (B, 07:59)

2. Fieldwork, Public Engagement, and Emotional Resonance

[10:10 – 18:12]

• The Power (and Challenge) of Field Work:
  Parsons and Humphrey reminisce about the intensity, unpredictability, and camaraderie of field monitoring—ranging from logistically complex releases (amid blizzards and media crowds) to transformative wilderness experiences.

• The “$50,000 Wolf Howl” Story:
  Parsons shares a deeply moving story—guiding a foundation principal to a Mexican wolf release site; her emotional response to a wolf howl inspired major philanthropy.

  "It was just like a river of tears coming down her face... Following that, she made a series of donations... the last count I made was well over $50,000. So that’s what I call the $50,000 wolf howl." (A, 00:05 & 15:12–18:12)

  "You gotta love it to save it." (B, 18:12)

3. Political Realities and Setbacks in Wolf Recovery

[19:05 – 29:37]

• Federal–State Conflict:
  Legislation like Senator Tester's 2011 rider removed protections for Northern Rockies wolves, setting a dangerous precedent.

  "[Tester] stuck a piece of legislation into a budget bill... that took the Northern Rockies wolves off the endangered species list... and said this legislation can't be subject to judicial review... That’s why we have the mess we have in the Northern Rockies." (A, 19:39)

• Population Minimums vs. Ecological Health:
  Roiling debate over wolf numbers—survival vs. ecological function.

  "Populations and extinction are two different things. We’re not necessarily trying to save a species from going extinct. We’re trying to build a population that's ecologically more appropriate." (B, 22:32)
  "...agencies have never embraced that concept." (A, 23:01)

• The Limits of Policy:
  Agencies default to minimum viable populations, disregarding the ecosystem-restoration intent of the Endangered Species Act.

  "What gets created... is what I call just a wild extension of zoos... Mexican wolves are on a path to [extinction] that the agencies aren’t even beginning to address because of the genetics." (A, 26:32)

4. Reflections from Brazil: Inspiration from the Wild

[27:23 – 33:18]

• Parsons’ Personal Pilgrimage to the Pantanal:
  Stressing the need for conservationists to rejuvenate, Dave describes traveling to Brazil's Pantanal—seeing jaguars, giant anteaters, a "lifer" American pygmy kingfisher.

  "Those who fight to save the wild need to take a break and go enjoy it from time to time... It did not disappoint." (A, 27:23) "Yeah, wow, [giant anteaters] do exist. Unless I was hallucinating." (A, 28:48)

• A Joy for Birds:
  Appreciating nature for its own sake as a “bird watcher,” not just a “life-lister.”

  "A bird watcher is a birder who’s out to enjoy the animals, to observe their behavior, to not just identify them... but to spend some time, you know, watching what they do, how they live in the world." (A, 31:01)

5. Comparing International and U.S. Conservation Models

[33:18 – 37:36]

• Easier Rewilding Abroad?
  The relative speed of large carnivore reintroductions in South America comes down to simpler land ownership structures and fewer political obstacles—whereas in the U.S., public lands are deeply contested.

  "We've got the public land in the United States, but... political opposition... small factions of naysayers... have way more influence than would seem reasonable." (A, 33:18)

• Multiple Use Doctrine as a Barrier:
  The 1960 Multiple Use and Sustained Yield Act mandates competing uses for public lands, undermining wildlife even when they’re supposed to have “co-equal” status.

  "Nature conservation and wildlife conservation is supposed to be addressed on an equal basis... but... conservation is supposed to have an equal chance to thrive on our public lands." (A, 37:36)

6. Wildlands Network & Conservation Strategies for the Future

[38:10 – 41:03]

• The Buffer/Network Model:
  Challenges of creating a tapestry of connected cores, corridors, and buffers, and why this network approach is so important in a fragmented landownership/political reality.

  "We are coming up with the ideas... of a tapestry of connected cores of buffer zones... so wolves can get from point A to point B... it's also a very slow going process." (B, 38:10)

• Political “Windows of Opportunity”:
  Progress is nonlinear; conservationists must seize rare openings, as with Mexican wolf and Yellowstone wolf releases under Clinton/Babbitt.

  "Conservation success doesn't come in a constant rising line on a graph... It's political windows of opportunity when you make gains." (A, 39:33)

7. The Ongoing Political Fight & Need for Engagement

[41:03 – 43:30]

• Importance of Voting and Political Engagement:
  The future of conservation hinges on administration policies; sometimes the main tactic becomes merely holding the line until a better climate emerges.

  "Right now we're in that game of trying to hold on to what we've got. Wait for better times." (A, 41:57)

8. Advice for Young Conservationists

[43:30 – 46:23]

• Role of Agency Insiders:
  Having committed, science-driven biologists within agencies is crucial; whistleblower protections exist, but the path can be difficult.

  "If we have good biologists working for the agencies with integrity... to actually break the law and push forward and resist that, we have to have that." (A, 43:30)

• The Conservation–Agency Relationship:
  The outside advocacy community's support is essential; both "inside" and "outside" strategies are necessary to achieve meaningful change.

9. The Problem of Agency Culture and Leadership

[46:23 – 51:26]

• Agencies’ Shifting Constituency:
  Over time, agencies like the Fish and Wildlife Service have drifted toward serving extraction-friendly interests.

  "The Fish and Wildlife Service major constituency... ought to be the conservation community. And it has never been..." (A, 47:56)

• Leadership That Hinders Conservation:
  The current (at time of recording) director of USFWS, formerly from Wyoming Game and Fish, presides over policies antithetical to wolf recovery.

  "What’s going on in Wyoming? The worst wolf slaughter we’ve ever seen... Drives me nuts when incoming president thinks that a former director of a state game and fish agency has the proper credentials to be the Director of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service..." (A, 50:07)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The $50,000 Wolf Howl:

  "It was just like a river of tears coming down her face... That’s what I call the $50,000 wolf howl." (A, 00:05 & 15:12)

• On Living the Work:

  "I've been wilderness backpacking for 50 years... The Gila is the only place that I’ve repeated the same trip multiple times." (A, 15:12)

• On Politics and Science:

  "That pesky science always getting in the way of political ideologies and goals." (B, 07:59)

• On Agency Dynamics:

  "It drives me crazy that the Fish and Wildlife Service still looks at the conservation community as their enemy and not their friend..." (A, 47:56)

• On What Conservation Really Means:

  "We’re not necessarily trying to save a species from going extinct. We’re trying to build a population that's ecologically more appropriate." (B, 22:32)

• On Insider–Outsider Collaboration:

  "You gotta play the inside game to get something done that the conservation community playing the outside game has something to... support." (A, 45:45)

• On Enduring Activism:

  "When you care about something, it's hard to quit caring about it." (A, 53:17)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:05 — The $50,000 Wolf Howl story
• 02:41–08:05 — Early struggles and lawsuit leading to wolf recovery program
• 10:10–13:32 — Fieldwork anecdotes and emotional resonance
• 15:12–18:12 — Powerful impact of direct experiences in wolf country
• 19:39–26:32 — Dangers of legislative rollbacks and under-ambitious recovery goals
• 27:23–31:46 — Inspiration from the Pantanal, joy in watching wildlife
• 33:18–37:36 — Contrast: U.S. vs. South American rewilding; public lands as battleground
• 38:10–41:03 — Importance and slowness of wildlands network designs
• 41:03–43:30 — Political cycles, voting, and conservation setbacks
• 43:30–46:23 — Advice to aspiring conservationists on inside–outside strategies
• 47:56–51:26 — Critique of agency culture and problematic leadership
• 53:17 — Lifelong commitment to the cause

Concluding Thoughts

This episode offers a rich, first-person account of both the victories and ongoing battles in wolf recovery and North American conservation. Parsons’ career—spanning fieldwork, agency leadership, and nonprofit advocacy—illustrates the immense personal, political, and philosophical challenges at the heart of rewilding. His advice, memories, and candid assessments provide unique insight for anyone invested in the fate of wild nature and those fighting, against the odds, to rewild the Earth.