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Rewilding Earth Podcast
Episode 164: Cuenca Los Ojos – A Rewilding Success Story Still Being Written with Valerie Gordon
00:37:16
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- [00:05]
A
Walking through the Cojombonito is pretty impressive at a really hot day in the springtime where before monsoon season you can see fish, like real fish, I don't mean like little minnows, but real fish several inches long. And you think this is incredible. And so to have that in an arid, brittle landscape is unbelievable. And you think about what that impact has as it is impressive to see how water has come back to the landscape and how the animals are responding to that. Foreign.
- [01:11]
B
You're listening to the Rewilding Earth podcast. I'm your host Jack Humphrey. Cuenca Los Ojos, the watershed of the Springs is a 121,000 acre protected area in the Sky Islands of Sonora, Mexico. Located directly along the United States Mexico border, CUENCA operates in a rugged terrain where hidden wetlands give way to vast grasslands and jagged mountain peaks. An over three decade rewilding project has returned parched Earth back into a vibrant oasis of increasing biodiversity. Today, CUENCA is once again home to ocelots, black bears, beavers and an occasional exploring jaguar. The work continues with a new chapter dedicated to handing the heavy lifting back to the land's original architects. This is the transition from human engineering to ecosystem engineers like beavers and the imminent return of other iconic species. Joining us today is Director Valerie Gordon, who knows that true restoration requires as much patience as action. Valerie takes us into the trenches of cuenca's mission, from perennial streams flowing in the desert to the strategic vision needed for wildlife corridors. She shows us what it really takes to rewild under tough conditions and why the return of a single species can change the destiny of an entire region. We're closing out 2025 with the story of Cuenca as a masterclass in rewilding that proves healing a landscape is a marathon, not a sprint. What's your favorite way to characterize CUENCA to new people and to people who just think they know a lot about it but don't.
- [02:49]
A
I love that. That's a great way to start out because I think most people think of CUENCA as a restoration organization. A lot of the work that was started by our founder who, full disclosure, is my mother and her focus was really to work on watershed restoration work with nature based solutions that were brought in by people. So people doing loose rock structures in some wire cages with rocks to restore proper watershed function by stabilizing soils. That is the history that most people have known about CUENCA for a long time and that is a wonderful foundation for a rewilding organization because the human aspect of trying to fix Some of the damage that had been human caused by converting landscapes such that they would be more erosive and then draining natural water systems and then the cascading effect that that has on wildlife populations. So the work that was introduced many years ago, arguably three decades ago, was, as I say, a fantastic foundation for now the new phase of Cuenca which is bringing animals in to do the work. And this is where rewilding comes in. It's really Restoration 2.0 for Cuenca. We're not changing our mission of restoration. We're now using animals who have been missing from the landscape but should be here. We're looking forward to bringing in the ecosystem engineers from the animal kingdom, not just human ecosystem engineers. I think that's what I would like people to know, is that our mission is still the same restoration work and our focus will continue to be restoration on the ground to stabilize soils. Then the biggest push right now, and the super exciting one that I hope we get to talk about today is the animals that we're going to bring back to the landscape to help do the ecosystem engineering and the restoration work.
- [05:02]
B
Well, I'm glad you teased that because we're going to make everyone listen to the entire podcast and that's going to be the mic drop at the end. So just to give people a sense of the scale, I just couldn't believe these numbers when I first read them. Like 40,000 plus small rock dams, trincheras and 1,000 earthen berms over 121,000 acres. And I'm just, I'm gobsmacked by the amount of stuff. The big gabions, 80 large industrial and those things are huge. And the results like perennial water restoration return for the dry arroyos in six miles of now year round flowing water where they were formerly dry and the water table rising and everything. Can you characterize the scale and scope and the effect that all of that has had over the last 30 years?
- [05:53]
A
Well, I think the best way to get people to understand it is to come and visit. So I welcome people to come on down because it really is hard to grasp that until you spend hours walking through this perennial stream in the driest time of the year and you're like, wait a minute, we're still in water one. I think one, one amazing thing that I can tell you is that again, walking through the Cohombonito is, is, is pretty impressive at a, at a really hot day in, in the springtime where, you know, before monsoon season and you can see fish, like real fish. I don't mean like little minnows, but real fish several inches long. And you think this is incredible. And so to have that in an arid, brittle landscape is unbelievable. And you think about what that impact has all up, you know, the food chain, you know, and all you have to do is look at the prints around the water areas because in addition to flowing water, we also have, you know, springs and pools of water. So not, you know, some of those do dry up. But it is, it is impressive to see how water has come back to the landscape and how the animals are responding to that.
- [07:17]
B
I think not only people should come down and visit you, but they should also visit surrounding areas so that they can really get an idea of how incredible the difference is. If I was visiting, I would really kind of be shocked at, like, is this supposed to be happening? Because most of the rest of everything around you is not like that.
- [07:38]
A
Right. Yeah. And full disclosure, we definitely have some, some parts of the reserve that are, are drier than we would like. We do need to address mesquite and juniper encroachment and things like that. So those are things that we are kind of a, an offshoot of a good problem to have. You know, having more water on the landscape does mean that, you know, we can have more vegetation come in, but we also, we also need to adapt our management constantly and not get too settled in one way. And so we are looking at some of that brush encroachment control going forward because we're now at a point where we're seeing, oh, are some of these places getting a little more choked with vegetation and is that impeding water flow? So we do want to stay active in our monitoring, in our approaches. And because, because systems are dynamic and they change and, and with climate change, we're getting different forces at play. One thing I can speak to, for instance, we have an agave project that is super exciting and, and so we're reforesting agaves and yet at the same time we've got a weevil that is coming in. And so, you know, they're constantly things that are, that are shifting and changing and we've got to stay on our toes.
- [09:01]
B
Restoration can be messy.
- [09:04]
A
Yes, restoration is messy.
- [09:06]
B
Yes. And caveat. This is not a finished project. It is always a work in progress. Right. And that's the thing, when you look at all the stats, just the bees, like, yes, the 400 plus bee species, and what that actually means is that you can support 400 species. What does that mean? Like, what has to be there for 400 species of bees to thrive.
- [09:29]
A
Well, water is a key thing. And then pollinator plants, you know that. I mean, that's a really important thing. The other thing is healthy soils and no chemicals. They have a space here that is free of all of that and water and a diversity of plants. So that, for example, if one year one of the plants that they would like to be pollinating isn't doing well for whatever reason, that there are countless other species of plants that they can. That they can rely on. And I do want to depart from this for just a moment to take you down a little visual path with me. There was one day when we were walking in the Cohon Bonito, and after bushwhacking through a system that has a lot of brush that comes down and big limbs and everything, and we opened up into a wider part of the Cajon canyon, and there were flowers that were above our head. And if you can just picture being in a canyon with flowers that are 7, 8ft tall with bees and butterflies everywhere, and it felt like a Disney movie. It was unbelievable. And I thought, we're walking in water, we're watching fish between our legs, and we've got these incredible flowers with bees and butterflies dancing overhead. It was. It was really remarkable. And so those are the hidden gems that I think make cuenca really special.
- [11:05]
B
And confirmation that I did not, in fact, misuse the word paradise because you just described it. The indications are there. I wonder if bees around the North America talk about cuenca. And it's like, we got to go back there, man. That. That's. That's the place.
- [11:21]
A
Yeah.
- [11:21]
B
I can really breathe there. Yeah.
- [11:24]
A
Well, one little tragic sidebar is that this wall, this fancy wall that is going up between the US And Mexico, actually, even though it's not a solid wall, it makes it very hard for bees to actually travel through. So it's slotted right. With, you know, four inches in the person barrier. There are four inches between. Between the slots. But. But it does vibrate, and it creates this very weird hum, and bees and, you know, do not like going through it. So that is. That is definitely a problem.
- [11:57]
B
Didn't expect to hear that bees were going to also have a problem with the wall that.
- [12:02]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [12:03]
B
I thought if it was there, we would be safe.
- [12:06]
A
No, and on a. On a windy day, when you. When you're near the wall, there is a weird humor vibration that it creates.
- [12:16]
B
Oh, man.
- [12:17]
A
Yeah.
- [12:18]
B
Well, if anybody needed another reason to hate that damn wall, there you go. 90 plus species of mammals.
- [12:26]
A
Yes.
- [12:27]
B
Jaguar, ocelot, beaver. That's what I was really excited about. I'm kind of a beaver nerd. People know that around here and I'm looking at all of these water features and I'm like okay, but I someday I want to see a beaver water feature.
- [12:43]
A
Yes.
- [12:43]
B
Is that, is that something you can experience there now or is, is that something that you're looking to increase more beaver activity?
- [12:52]
A
Wonderful. So we did have a reintroduction of beaver a few years ago maybe five or six years ago and we had several beaver families that were just fantastic. They created these huge dams in the combonito and it was beautiful and just magnificent water features. And we actually have some images of video of beaver swimming along happily this year the monsoons were so big that they washed out the beaver dams and so we have not been able to track where the beaver may have gone but we know downstream. And so our rewilding coordinator is actively working with with some opportunities to bring beaver back here. So we need to do a lot more of that. That is definitely on our short term plan.
- [13:50]
B
250 plus bird species.
- [13:53]
A
Yes.
- [13:54]
B
I mean you must get people from all over the world just for that.
- [13:58]
A
Reason alone we do get a lot of people that come down here and what's also really fun is I get the opportunity to travel around to various conferences and and people. It is not unusual for someone to come up and say oh yes, I visited Cuenca and I saw such and such bird so it's pretty amazing. I live in a house that is right by the coahumbanito and this summer we had four pygmy owls that would serenade each other or maybe they were serenaded me each night and pygmy owls are just adorable and so fun to listen to and it was, it was pretty great.
- [14:38]
B
I can't imagine what it would be like to stand in the middle of 8,000 acres of grasslands that are actively aerated and reseeded with native species. Like there's probably some magical moments in a place like that like you described in that canyon with the giant flowers and yeah, just because that's another thing that people who grow up in the southwest don't come across very often.
- [15:01]
A
Well, I would call, I would say that it's teeming. It's teeming with life and teaming with life on the insect level Teaming with plants and with birds and other insects. It's pretty remarkable. I don't spend as much time as I would like hiking around because I'm often closer to my computer But I am a trail Runner. And so I do try and get out most days and it's a chance for me to be out in the air and to breathe in the life around. And I love. There's nothing more magical than, you know, the wind blowing and birds, you know, soaring above, whether it's a raptor, whether it, you know, I scare up some quail or, you know, some native doves are swooping in. Um, sparrows, of course, in the grasslands are, are so fun to watch, you know, bounce from area to area. So, you know, and then when you come down to the wetter areas, you get this, you know, just unbelievable display of colors with the, with the cardinals and the Vervilian flycatchers and, and all the yellow birds. Again, I'm, I'm getting beyond my, my species identification.
- [16:23]
B
Oh, no, we have, we have a lot of birders, but we all appreciate those of us hardcore birders love. Okay, yellow, yellow. I bet she's got some red there too. That's perfect for us. It's because the birders will know which ones you're talking about. They are looking in their book going, oh, I know that's. I don't.
- [16:42]
A
Well, so I'm a, I'm a total fake birder. I rely heavily on Merlin and I, I can tell you that there's a little walk that I do just, you know, up the road to clear my head at the end of the day, even if I can't get out for a proper, a proper run. And it's not unusual that in the springtime I can get 20 to 25 different species of bird that my app will announce to me.
- [17:08]
B
Now you're starting to brag. People are getting a little mad at you. We're going to have to move on to fish or something. Yeah, we really do need to move on to fish really quickly just because the Yaqui chub and the Yaqui catfish, seemingly important eight native fish species and the Cajon bonito. Tell us about the importance of that.
- [17:28]
A
Well, so, you know, this part of northern Mexico is very dry and there aren't many rivers here. And the rivers that are here, a lot of them have dried up. And so, you know, they're more flashy arroyos. And so the Cohombo Nito is a crucial place for fish and for other species that, you know, bears and jaguars and mountain lions that, that need cover and need water. So. But the fish, you know, that's what tells me, you know, a fish can't get away from. You know, a jaguar or a bear can maybe move to another spot. But a fish is pretty stuck. And so the fact that we can have, you know, a four or five inch fish in, in the Combonito is, is pretty amazing. So the Combonito is a very special place. It, you know, pretty canyon and the water is, is fed by some springs and obviously monsoon rains as well. And it, it flows through this canyon and you know, I'm looking at it right now. We've got sycamores and, and cottonwoods and all sorts of species of trees that are growing, you know, different willows that are growing on its banks. And, and all of that creates this ecosystem that is pretty spectacular for, for fish and, and birds and all sorts of migratory and terrestrial animals. And what's also really cool is just a few hundred yards from where I'm sitting right now, there are some Indian grinding stones right in the center of the stream. And so you can just see that this has been a place teeming with all sorts of life for centuries. Because it is this ribbon of life that without it would be a huge desert that would make it impossible for migratory species to move through or for resident species to survive because otherwise it would be pure desert. But this is really the lifeblood of this area. And that's really what brought my mother to this area. There was a ichthyologist from Arizona State University who did call the Combonito the most important stream in North America. And it was because of the endemic fish here and because of the water quality and because of the life that it supports.
- [19:54]
B
I want to talk about the business of rewilding, but for you, how do you characterize the return on investment and what it means to take a giant piece of land like this and do these things, these restorations?
- [20:07]
A
Well, I think the return on investment is hope. And so I think we're bringing hope to people who feel like so many things in the planet are going in one direction. And here at Cuenca, we're showing that there are certain parts of climate change that can be turned around. And so I do think that that is a return on investment. So we're able to operate because of philanthropic gifts from fantastic people and foundations and grants from, from agencies as well. And so that is how we are able to pay our staff that is able, how we're able to do the work that we need to bring species back to the landscape to do the monitoring and all of that work that's involved in restoration and rewilding. But we also are looking at engaging more with the communities. So we are maybe 25km away from a border town in Mexico, it's Agua Prieta. And in the US It's Douglas, Arizona. And these are towns that are towns in a dry, dusty place where it's this feeling of movement, of transition. People are on a border, they want to get someplace else. And one of the things that Cuenca that I'm really pleased my leadership staff and I have been discussing is the importance of especially the people of Agua prieta to really take pride in, in what's going on at cuenca and in the surrounding areas outside of Agua Pirata. And we'd like to, and this is pie in the sky idea, but I think this is how we do make restoration and rewilding. A business that works is to make this part of the pride of the area. And whether it's about people coming out to drive through and see bison from the highway and they stay in hotels in Agua Prieta and they eat in restaurants to birders who come and will go hiking and they will stop and pick up snacks at the local store In Agua Prieta that we could help local businesses and build a tourism economy. And right now that probably sounds a little bit crazy, but I think we can get there because getting true buy in with the community and getting community businesses to start making, you know, making money off of the rewilding and restoration work that cuenca is doing is important. We have Route 2, which is a major highway in northern Mexico that goes through the entirety of the reserve. And while it's a migratory problem to have a major highway go through it also I think is an opportunity to celebrate the work that's being done. And if we can have bison and antelope visible from the highway and we could have little pull out places where people could read an interpretive map or sign and take out some binoculars and look at species, we're now transforming the economy of the area from let's drive through and get to wherever we're going to. Let's actually go there and stop at the store and have a snack and then enjoy the rewilding work that is happening in northern Mexico. So we are in very preliminary conversations with some people in including the mayor of Agua prieta who is very eager to see more tourism happen in this area. And I think we can be a real benefit to the community in that way.
- [23:47]
B
Is there any Talk for Highway 2 of building crossings?
- [23:51]
A
So, you know, there is. So Highway 2 has, has had some, some improvements, some modernizations, and it still needs more work to be done. There are some Some bridge areas that, where animals could pass through. They aren't official passages because they don't have any micro habitats around the passageways and the fencing isn't properly funneled. But that is something that we're. We are meeting with the Secretary of Transportation Communication next spring and to start looking at that. We've also got great partnerships with Wildlands Network who They' spent lots of time working on this. And so this is something that I think is beyond what the Mexican Transportation Department could pay for. But we would be thrilled to get private support to help us with that. If we could match some of the work that the highway department is doing with donations to create an overpass or improve underpasses, that would be unbelievable.
- [24:56]
B
Have any preliminary studies gone on about, like where the hotspots are along two with your properties, where your property is concerned?
- [25:04]
A
Yes, Wildlands Network did do a study for the first modernization of Route 2, and there are further studies that are also in play. Most of those are in, in the Vallee, which is the big open grassland that, that connects with the Animas Valley of New Mexico. And if we could improve the fencing along Route 2 and create these little micro habitats around these, these overpasses, we, we could definitely improve those so we could work better with what we have. And then we definitely would like to encourage proper consideration of this as they improve the. As they improve the road.
- [25:46]
B
Okay, drum roll.
- [25:48]
A
Yeah.
- [25:48]
B
Let's talk about your big news. I mean, you got a lot of big news, but I think you know the big news I'm talking about and let's put everyone out of their misery and, and let them know what's about to happen.
- [26:01]
A
Are we talking about herbivory?
- [26:04]
B
Yes.
- [26:05]
A
Okay, wonderful.
- [26:06]
B
Thank you for not letting it.
- [26:07]
A
Yeah, wonderful. Well, it's super exciting that we are about to welcome bison back to this part of Sonata. They have been missing for, you know, I think. I think estimates are 300 years and we're really privileged to have access to some wind cave bison that were moved to Chihuahua a few years ago. And where they are on the ranch there in Hanos, they are overpopulating that area and they need to be moved out. And so we're actually, we've done an analysis, we've done some carrying capacity, we've done some infrastructure review and we are ready to welcome 25 bison to Sonata very soon. We are just finishing up some paperwork and then they're going to arrive and it's going to be really magnificent.
- [27:05]
B
So you're basically doordashing some bison. Yes, that's awesome. I know it's a lot more complicated than that. This, the status of bison in Mexico, I was surprised to learn, is far more restrictive. They're far more protected there than they are in the United States. Can you describe that a little bit?
- [27:25]
A
Yeah. So, you know, bison were basically all. But, you know, taken from the Mexican landscape. There are some estimates that there are maybe 3,000 ish, maybe 4,000 bison in all of Mexico. And you know, most people may not be aware that bison habitat does extend all the way from, you know, North America all the way down to middle part of Mexico. And so, well, you know, upper third of Mexico. But because of all the pressures that happened against bison, introduction of cattle, roads, hunting, all of that, they were all but extirpated. And so that we are bringing them back is, is, is pretty exciting. But because they were removed, removed from the landscape, they were considered endangered. They are considered, they're listed as an endangered species in Mexico. And this has been, I think, was very well intended listing. But as with, you know, so many of these things, these categorical designations, there can be a good side and a bad side to that. So basically what it's meant is that bison have been hard to manage and it's a big animal and it does need to be managed. And so for instance, there's no, there's, there hasn't been harvesting allowed to be allowed with bison. You can't manage them. So mean that to be either castrating, you can't do any, any herd control of the bison because they wanted, they wanted the few members of the population that were here to be able to be wild. But what that's meant is that no one has wanted to have bison because they basically just reproduce and then become a big impact on the landscape. And when you can't manage them, then you can't sell them, it's very hard to move them, you can't harvest them. And this is a big animal and it doesn't have a huge landscape to roam freely in. And so we've been working with agencies and scientists in Mexico to support the changing of that listing so that it could become a species of special concern, which would still afford it very strong protection. It would never be a livestock species under this category, but it would mean that it could be managed more appropriately such that it would benefit the species. In the US there's close to, I think, a million bison. Because in some states, bison are considered livestock. Some, in some cases they have dual. It means that bison can be used and can be traded, sold you know, harvested, which means that more people want to have them. And so we're exploring those options with agencies and scientists in Mexico to change the listing. And we think that's going to help the recovery processes in, in Mexico.
- [30:21]
B
You would definitely be very concerned, I would think, about management on your 8,000 acres of restored grassland. You cannot just let bison crazy there, right?
- [30:31]
A
Yeah.
- [30:32]
B
So you've got a lot of infrastructure, biological infrastructure to protect, as you think about all these things. And I bring that up so people can really get an idea of just how, you know, difficult this is. I, I think it'd be really nice if you could doordash a few breeding pairs of jaguars.
- [30:49]
A
Sure. Yeah. Well, I think that's the whole key that, that we plan to do around our rewilding and repopulation recovery of different species is getting that whole trophic interaction to balance out. So, you know, the key will ultimately be to have natural systems take place so that there is herbivory, there is predation, there are all of these natural processes. So we, we have a long way to go and we're starting small. You know, we have a big landscape and we're starting with 25 animals and we will, we do have the ability to manage those animals, you know, if, if we need to move them, you know, share them with other ranches and things like that. And so we're putting our toe in this water very carefully because we do not want to create an overpopulation of species here. But absolutely, having predator interactions will be really important to balancing the ecosystem functions.
- [31:44]
B
In my mind, and I think in the mind of a lot of others, because the marketing has really been hardcore in this direction. What you picture with bison and predators staring each other down is the predator's a wolf. Wolf, it's always a wolf. And just replace that image in your head with a jaguar and. Yeah, and it almost feels to me at this moment like the one picture that could tell a huge part of the story of Cuenca one day. It's aspirational and everything, but jaguars certainly do move through Cuenca, right?
- [32:20]
A
Well, we have 35 miles of border frontage, and so there is a. Quite a section that animals can move through, but there are other places that animals can, can move through as well. We do have, you know, quite a few jaguars that have been identified on cameras at the Cuenca reserve.
- [32:39]
B
Have you ever heard one?
- [32:41]
A
I have not heard one, no.
- [32:43]
B
You need to hear one. And then you need to call me immediately after you've heard one.
- [32:47]
A
I will, I will. That would Be great. I'd love to make that call.
- [32:51]
B
Yeah. Well, I'm really excited that you took the time to be here today. I think that we could run a podcast year round, talking about Cuenca and just getting into the week about everything with your science people, with your rewilding coordinator. But it is really important that you do these kinds of things and that you are recognized by more and more people as the important place that you are and the work that you're doing because you need that attention. You need funding. And bringing the land back is not cheap, I imagine.
- [33:25]
A
Right, right. And it's absolutely true. We have, we're very fortunate that our founder was able to put together this landscape that we have now. Ideally would love to, you know, maybe even double the size of the reserve. And we have some promising conversations we're having with, with funders who are interested in supporting our footprint increase and so that we can have more room for animals, you know, because we need more prey base if we're going to start engaging with, with more predator work. We need to do studies to make sure that we have the prey base and prey base needs room to run and, and so do predators. So we don't want to end up with, you know, it seems like a lot of land and it's a lot to manage, but it's also not a lot. It's. We don't compare to the, the true rewilding organizations, you know, in South America and even, you know, up north in the States. And so we recognize we have, we do need to grow either with our, with expanding the reserve or grow by working with more landowners who want to manage their properties consistently with rewilding and restoration work. So that is really important, but it is expensive and, you know, a dollar goes a long way in Mexico. But we still do need to do a lot of work. We're really fortunate to have partners, and partners go a long way to support us because we can't do it all. And that's where organizations like the Rewilding Institute and Wildlands, just to name a few, I mean, there are many more that are super generous with their time and their advice and their experience. And we look forward to fundraising with other groups as well, because I think we're stronger together and I know we're stronger together. And I really think that going at this as a group of rewilding and restoration and conservation organizations who are dedicated to the Sky Islands region is really wonderful. So we're so grateful to organizations like the Rewilding Institute and others who are in this with us.
- [35:42]
B
Yeah, and I feel lucky to be any part of that because it's really very cool. We touched on a lot of stuff today, but I have to say, listeners, even with everything you heard today, we only scratched the surface. So the extra credit section for this episode is going to be extensive and it'll take you as far as you want to go to learn more about cuenca, about things that you can do. That'll all be@rewilding.org pod and look for episode 164. So, Valerie, thank you so much for taking the time to do this wonderful introduction to Cuenca.
- [36:22]
A
Well, it's been such a pleasure. I'm so grateful. Thank you for this opportunity. Great questions and I hope your audience follows us on Instagram and reaches out to Cuenca Los Ojos if you have questions and if you want to support and learn more about our work.
- [36:41]
B
Thanks for listening to the Rewilding Earth podcast. We do what we do because of you. This podcast is supported by listeners like you who long to live in a wilder world. Please consider donating@rewilding.org and subscribe to our weekly news and article digest while you're there. To go the extra mile, you can follow and share Rewilding Earth on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Bonus points for sharing this podcast with your friends. To listen to past episodes, go to rewilding.org pod that's rewilding.org pod.