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- [00:01]
A
It's crunch time at work and you need to bring wings to your workday. Visit redbull.com gettingitdone and answer a couple questions about your work style to get a Spotify customized playlist tuned to your productivity. Plus, score a can of Red Bull on us while you go from to do to done. And remember, Red Bull gives you wings. Supplies are limited. Terms apply. Visit the website for more information. Welcome to Rex Factor. This time the Battle of the Champions live at Ludlow with your hosts, Graham Duke and Ali. Hello. Hello. I mean, what an ep. If you've just joined us, this is it.
- [01:00]
B
If you've just joined us, it culminates here. Assume that you have just joined us, as this is the opening of the episode.
- [01:07]
A
Oh, yeah. I've got to remember, there's people listening. It did help going to this Ludlow business.
- [01:17]
B
Seeing people listening.
- [01:19]
A
That was weird.
- [01:21]
B
Didn't help. Didn't help at all. Graham put me off.
- [01:23]
A
Didn't have a tour. Graham. Yeah, well, it's. It was just a. It was a harsh reminder. I mean, a stark reminder and not even remind us. It was like a bang. You know, this happens because you're just here with me normally. Yeah, I felt. I felt like I addressed it early, though, when I said that. I felt uncomfortable with all these faces.
- [01:48]
B
The elephant or perhaps the herd of elephants in the room.
- [01:53]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [01:55]
B
Well, anyway, welcome to Rex Factor, where we have reviewed all the queen and prince consorts of England. And recently, as we just talked about there, we did have a lovely time doing a live show in Ludlow where we pitted the champion of the English consort series that we've just finished, Eleanor of Aquitaine, against the previous two Rex Factor series champions, Henry ii, King of England, and Robert the Bruce, King of Scots.
- [02:16]
A
We're here right now. They're listening. Graham, what have you got?
- [02:19]
B
Well, obviously lots of people would have loved to have been able to join us in Ludlow who weren't able to do so. So the good news is that we were able to record it, and thus we are now releasing the entire live show here as a podcast. Now, some people have asked if there's a video. Sadly, there wasn't. About an hour before we started, you started wondering why I laughed about getting your phone out and where you could stick it.
- [02:44]
A
I know because I do this every time, and you're so patient with me that it was literally an album. We were doing a sound check.
- [02:56]
B
Yeah.
- [02:57]
A
And I arrived with a. Like a bag for life full of stands and miscellaneous recording equipment. Said I thought maybe I could put my phone here and then I could record it. He went, Looked at me sort of patiently, but at the same time saying, we are really close to the show.
- [03:14]
B
Why?
- [03:20]
A
I don't know. It was clearly a flurry of guilt slash nerves that manifested itself in this moment.
- [03:32]
B
We're gonna be on stage now, for heaven's sake.
- [03:35]
A
Exactly. Have you not thought about this at all? Because I've suddenly realized it basically was what was happening and you weren't displaying nearly the same amount of panic. But on the same hand, you're very close to the show now, and you did start talking about wanting a shower.
- [03:55]
B
So we don't have the video recording, but, you know, as an audio podcast, we've got the audio recording. So what you're going to be listening to now is the entirety of the live show, in which sort of playoff style, essentially we compare Henry ii, Robert the Bruce, and Eleanor of Aquitaine. We then have a Q and A.
- [04:11]
A
I mean, it totally appeals to the narcissist in me. It's like I can't get these ones wrong.
- [04:20]
B
Although, I mean, there was one. There was. There was a question which did very much put you on the spot and stomp you. I won't spoil that for people listening because it's. It's quite fun when that question is presented.
- [04:29]
A
I still can't get the right answer to that because for. Halfway through that sentence, your. Your intro there, I realized what you're talking about. I was thinking about castles for quite a long time.
- [04:39]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [04:41]
A
And I still don't think anyone has really cleared that up for me yet.
- [04:46]
B
So this episode, we got the. The main show, the Q and A. And then at the end of the Q and A, we reveal the result of the audience vote as to who will win the battle of the champions. So have a listen to the live show, but stick around in your listening after the live show because my parents, very kindly, though ultimately, son Alex, I think, took over doing the calculating of the vote. We did ranked choice voting, like in the playoffs. So I asked them to work out who won, but I said not to worry about the second, third bit in terms of calculating that. So I will confirm the full results at the end of this podcast.
- [05:22]
A
So that's what we're doing now. When. When with your editing magic, it will look like.
- [05:26]
B
Like we have sat here and listened to the entire live show.
- [05:29]
A
In a minute, you're going to give me the ranked choice voting.
- [05:31]
B
Yes.
- [05:32]
A
Wicked. Is that me or you?
- [05:59]
B
I'm not sure, but you were just a little bit Worried about when to come on there, weren't you?
- [06:03]
A
I don't listen as much as you, so I don't know how long the theme tune was.
- [06:07]
B
I was just there going, I go on now. I go on now. Anyway, hello, everybody, and welcome to Rex Battle of the Champions live at Ludlow. Thank you so much, everyone who has come today. It's lovely to see you all. We know that lots of you have come really long distances as well. Not least, we must mention from the Pontifax podcast, who's not only come from Canada, but it's also her birthday today. And there are lots of people from other Rexy inspired podcasts here today. So if you want to chat to us, or indeed to them after the show, then do stick around to say hello. And we're happy to chat anyway. So for those of you who don't know, my name is Graham, I'm Ali.
- [06:56]
A
This isn't at all scripted, so I didn't know, for example, he was going to say that.
- [06:59]
B
Just give some prompts every now and again when I need to say something funny. And we present a history podcast called Rex Factor, in which we review kings and queens in history by a number of different factors and decide which of them has that certain something that we call Rex Factor. It's good. It's good. Also, you've got the support that the other people know the lines, even if you're well.
- [07:21]
A
I just sort of feel like I'm leading it, then we can all join in and it will help me out magnificently.
- [07:27]
B
So we have done three series of Rex Factor now. In our first series, we reviewed kings and queens of England. Second series, we did the same with the monarchs of Scotland. And we've just finished our third series doing the consorts of England. So we thought this would be the good time now to do a new Battle of the Champions, where we pit the winners of each series against each other. So that's Henry ii, the English monarchs, Robert the Bruce for the Scots, and recently confirmed Eleanor of Aquitaine for the consorts. So it will be like a normal Rex Factor episode. We will look at their life and reigns and then we will consider them by each of the different factors. So we've got battliness, scandal, subjectivity. Would you want to be a subject? Longevity, how long their reign was, and then dynasty, how many legitimate surviving children that they have. But it will be you, the audience, who decide which of those three will be crowned the ultimate Rex Factor champion. So I think you should all have on your seats or the armrests. A pencil and a voting slip. If you don't have a pencil, you might be in a row where we did alternating things because we ran out. If you don't have a slip, there will probably be one somewhere else so we can sort it out. But, yes, you will get to do vote at the end and then we will crown one of the three the alternate.
- [08:44]
A
So this isn't, you know, I don't feel normal. It's normally just your lovely mug looking at me. And this is a horrible reminder that people actually do, you know, they listen to this.
- [08:56]
B
It is a surprise. Ali's always shocked by the realization that it isn't just a chat between us. I'll just talk to you. Yeah, just turn it around. You sit there. Right, let's get comparing. Now, we don't technically need to do this, but, Ali, I'm going to get you, for the benefit of the audience, to do your hand jiggling bits.
- [09:15]
A
I thought you'd ask me for a review, then just hand over to you.
- [09:18]
B
You've done it enough times by now.
- [09:20]
A
It's a bit late for a format change at this point. What?
- [09:25]
B
Biography? Biography. So for biography, we're going to go in series order rather than chronological order, because otherwise I'd have had to figure out where to put Henry and Eleanor. So we're starting with Henry ii, the representative of the English monarch. So hen Henry II was born in 1133, the son of Geoffrey of Anjou and the Empress Matilda. Yeah, tick got that with you so far. He was very much his mother's son, so he's known as Henry Fitzempress and his early years are defined by his mother's struggle to win the crown of England in a battle with King Stephen in the anarchy.
- [10:04]
A
Yeah, sort of proto Eleanor. Oh, no. Is he in the House?
- [10:13]
B
Incorrect. Try again. So by the time Henry's a teenager, the focus has really shifted to him in the battle for the throne. He's the next generation. He's the one that is now the focus. So he becomes the Duke of Normandy in 1150. He inherits Anjou and Maine in 1151. And then through marriage to Eleanor of Aquitaine, he becomes the Duke of Aquitaine as well.
- [10:38]
A
Left.
- [10:39]
B
He basically rules the left of France. 1153, Stephen recognizes Henry as his heir. Stephen basically can't be bothered anymore.
- [10:49]
A
What's her name? Died.
- [10:50]
B
Matilda Boulogne. Stephen's wife died.
- [10:52]
A
I could have taken a stab at that with a Matilda.
- [10:56]
B
So Henry succeeded him the following year, unopposed. So he's just 21 years old. Very, very Young, but he's got a challenging legacy. We've got royal revenue down by about two thirds, lots of over mighty nobles with their impregnable castles. And also England's territory has been greatly reduced as well.
- [11:13]
A
Right.
- [11:14]
B
However, Henry is a force of nature and quickly restores control. So foreign mercenary troops are quickly expelled from the country, crown revenues are restored and Northern England is won back from Scottish control. See what Robert the Bruce says, his focus then switches to maintaining his vast Angevin empire, as we call it, the left of France, which he actually expands.
- [11:39]
A
So he is this after he's married Eleanor?
- [11:41]
B
Yes, he's become king and he's still, you know, on the move, getting even bigger.
- [11:46]
A
It's tricky because they're both in this.
- [11:48]
B
They are both in this.
- [11:49]
A
Yes. Yeah. So I'm trying to. Really hard to. I mean, you probably knew that, but.
- [11:53]
B
Yeah, I'm following. But this is all Henry for now. And then when we switch to somebody else, I'll try and give you some clue that I'm moving it on. So Henry's very much in control of things in these sort of early years, but his efforts to restore royal control aren't always successful. When he attempts to do the same with the Church, he comes into a bit of a clash with the Archbishop of Canterbury.
- [12:15]
A
Mega scandal.
- [12:16]
B
Thomas Becket. Yes, technically true, but I thought we'd just introduce him. So Thomas Becket goes into exile for about a decade over a clash with Henry and then when he comes back, he gets murdered at the altar of Canterbury Cathedral.
- [12:33]
A
Yeah. Ten years, though. What do they do in the in between?
- [12:37]
B
Just sort of petty arguing a distance, really. Which was better, ultimately, from his perspective.
- [12:45]
A
Whose?
- [12:45]
B
Beckett's.
- [12:47]
A
Yeah.
- [12:50]
B
It is, as Ali said, mega scandal across all of Europe could very easily have brought Henry down. And indeed, it precedes the great revolt in 1173, which is when Henry's adult sons, or adult and teenage sons, unhappy that he's not given them enough land and power, all rebel against him.
- [13:09]
A
Is that when. In that 10 years?
- [13:11]
B
Because it's judged after. So Beckett, I think, is in 1171 years later. So it very much follows in the wake of Beckett. So you've got his three oldest sons, Eleanor of Aquitaine, his wife and queen joins in King of France, King of Scots and many counts across Europe. Massive, massive force.
- [13:31]
A
With what aim? Who's going to take over?
- [13:34]
B
Oh, they'll split it all up. Well, the good news is that Henry II defeated them all and he got to keep everything. The King of Scots is imprisoned for a while.
- [13:45]
A
Who is that?
- [13:45]
B
That's William the Lion.
- [13:47]
A
Who is that?
- [13:51]
B
You don't entirely need to know, other than that he had the awkward moment that when he was captured in battle, just before he leaves this heroic charge, where he says something along the lines of, now we shall see who has the greater, for he fell off his horse and got captured.
- [14:05]
A
Yeah, that's tricky, isn't it? Bit of hubris going on there. Yeah.
- [14:08]
B
Awkward moment. Anyway, so he's captured, but Eleanor of Aquitaine is as well and is imprisoned for the rest of Henry's reign. But still, it's a big, big win for Henry. Unfortunately for him, it doesn't get any easier after this point. From 1180, he's got an even more impressive enemy in France with the young Philip Augustus, who's much more cunning than his predecessor. And he plays the other children off against each other and against Henry. So in 1189, Henry's eldest surviving son, Richard the Lionheart, is about to go on crusade. Fears his father's not going to assure him of his inheritance should he die while he's away. So Richard and Philip ally against each other, there's another rebellion and Henry is forced to submit to Philip. Pay homage to the French King. No. And then he dies shortly afterwards at the age of 56.
- [14:57]
A
And he won the first series, surrendering to the French.
- [15:02]
B
What's going on?
- [15:02]
A
I do not remember that.
- [15:05]
B
It doesn't end well for Henry.
- [15:07]
A
No.
- [15:08]
B
He ends on a downer.
- [15:09]
A
Yeah. Wow. You know, I remember that. I'm not voting. Doesn't matter. I'm not voting.
- [15:18]
B
But if anyone wants to be influenced by this, Ali's putting a bit of an opinion out there. Now we are moving on from Henry ii.
- [15:26]
A
Okay. You haven't done all your normal numbers. Numbers.
- [15:30]
B
Well, no, it's just the biography at this point. I'll do the facts.
- [15:32]
A
Do that afterwards.
- [15:33]
B
Afterwards. Robert the Bruce.
- [15:37]
A
Yeah, go on.
- [15:38]
B
King of Scots, series two champion.
- [15:40]
A
Yeah.
- [15:41]
B
He is born in 1274, the son of Robert de Bruce and Margery, the Countess of Carrick.
- [15:47]
A
Okay.
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B
He's about the seventh in a long line of Robert Bruce's. It's technically not the Bruce, but it sounds cool.
- [15:54]
A
What is that?
- [15:55]
B
It's really the Bruce.
- [15:58]
A
Okay.
- [15:59]
B
But for some reason, he became the. And it sounds good, so keep saying it. His life is defined also by a succession crisis. But in Scotland, where a lack of heirs after the death of Alexander III of Scotland sees a complete. You know, who's going to be king? Nobody really knows. They have to go very, very far back and work their way down various lines. So you've got the Bruce family and also the Balliol family. So you're kind of leading contenders.
- [16:25]
A
Yes, yes, because I know who's coming up.
- [16:28]
B
So a neutral, friendly, respectable, reliable arbiter is called for. And that is Edward I of England. Yeah.
- [16:39]
A
Boo. Boo.
- [16:41]
B
Don't be led. Edward I rules probably fairly in Balliol's favourite. But the Bruce family don't acknowledge Balliol. And indeed, when Edward invades Scotland a few years later, the Bruce family actually side with Edward against.
- [16:56]
A
Do they? Oh, no, that's a moment where I'm saying that's in the film. That's about the only accurate bit in that film that he really did do the dirty.
- [17:08]
B
Well, yeah, he is a bit back and forth, Robert the Bruce, but he does sort of come back to the Scots and then sort of back to Edwards.
- [17:14]
A
How did he. And he won the second series. I'm not sure we've quality controlled this stuff.
- [17:20]
B
Well, it's what he does after that point. So he still has ambitions for the throne. But John Comyn, his sort of chief rival, who is a nephew of John Balliol, he's really got control in Scotland, the throne. So in 1306, Robert and Comyn meet in a church, presumably to discuss the plan. But the discussion doesn't go very well because it ends with Robert's the bruise murdering John Comyn in the church.
- [17:45]
A
That's outrageous, isn't it? I mean, what does he say when he left? Because presumably all of their rescues are either side saying, you want to go and sort that out and then legs it or something.
- [17:56]
B
Actually, that pretty much is what happens because he actually. He stabs Commyn, but I think his heavies were sent in to finish the job.
- [18:04]
A
Okay. I mean, I say okay. It's not okay, is it? It's very, very bad. Bad, bad Robbie.
- [18:11]
B
Okay, but in the circumstances, I guess,
- [18:13]
A
yeah, you do just sort of have
- [18:14]
B
to go with the flow, don't you?
- [18:15]
A
And John, that's the end of him, then. He doesn't have any other.
- [18:18]
B
No, he's very much dead.
- [18:21]
A
But there's no one coming behind saying, I'm his nephew, or however it worked, because it was all that nonsense. There are.
- [18:27]
B
So what happens is Robert the Bruce quickly zooms off to get himself crowned King of Scots, but obviously he's got the rest of the Comyn family, who aren't very pro him and indeed his guide with the first, who is a bit mystified that anyone would dare mess with his plans. So very quickly, Robert The Bruce actually is defeated and forced to go into exile. Many of his womenfolk are imprisoned. You'll recall Edward I puts them all in cages that he hangs on the outside of castles.
- [18:54]
A
I mean, it's a different time. Different time.
- [19:00]
B
One of his brothers is killed, but Bruce takes shelter on the island of Rathlin, just off the coast of Ireland. And that's where, according to legend, he's inspired to have another go because he sees a spider weaving its web and trying and trying again until it succeeds. I mean, he might have done. Probably would have been a spider in the cave. So who's to say?
- [19:19]
A
Yeah, oh, sorry, I'll keep them still.
- [19:23]
B
So Robert the Bruce returned and this is the point at which he earns his series champion reputation, boosted, I'm sure we all were, by the death of Edward I. Yeah. And Edward ii, his successor. A much less competent king, Robert the Bruce is able to govern the offensive. So he defeats the Commynes in battle, or various battles and sieges and whatnot, establishes dominance of Scotland, and then he starts to besiege and capture all of the English held castles in southern Scotland until the last one left is Stirling Castle. And when he besieges that one, Edward II is forced to respond. Comes up north with an army and we have the Battle of Bannockburn, which turns out to be an epic victory for the Scots. But Edward escapes and he still refuses to acknowledge Scottish independence. Raids into northern England, but still Edward essentially ignores him. He's older than Edward. His health is starting to fail. At this point, he doesn't have a son and heir to succeed him.
- [20:19]
A
Bruce. Yeah, yeah, Right.
- [20:21]
B
So, yeah, time's running. Not Henry, not Eleanor. But things do start to get a bit better. He's excommunicated by the Pope, which isn't great. But the Scots respond with the Declaration of Our Growth, which is this very powerful rhetoric about unity and independence, which helps to start to turn the tide a little bit internationally.
- [20:44]
A
Why? What? Why does that matter? So he's excommunicated by the Pope.
- [20:49]
B
The Pope says, you guys, Pope wants to go on crusade and the Scots are fighting the English, which isn't good because he wants them all to be at peace so they can fight elsewhere.
- [20:58]
A
And does he do a Henry and set up his own church?
- [21:01]
B
He doesn't do that. He just says, you should see what these guys are doing. We're the good guys.
- [21:06]
A
Does it work?
- [21:07]
B
Well, it does seem to turn the tide towards the Pope being a bit more sympathetic to their position.
- [21:13]
A
Okay.
- [21:14]
B
More importantly, though, Edward II is Twice repelled in attempted invasions of Scotland. In 1324, Robert the Bruce finally is delivered of a son and heir.
- [21:25]
A
Right.
- [21:26]
B
And Edward II is overthrown by his queen, Isabella of France. Runner up series three, her lover, Roger Mortimer, leads another invasion of Scotland. But when this is defeated, the Treaty of Edinburgh, Northampton in 1328 finally sees England legally acknowledge Scottish independence.
- [21:45]
A
Oh, my God. Okay, so hence the next Edward getting upset about that.
- [21:51]
B
He was not happy. Edward III was not happy about this because he was a puppet king in these early years. But for Robert the Bruce success, Scotland is free, it's got its freedom. And well timed, because the following year, Robert the Bruce dies at the age of 55.
- [22:06]
A
That's pretty good, though, because it's like dying on top. He didn't have to go through the 80s with synth music or anything, you know, it's all just done.
- [22:14]
B
Well, that's what happened to Henry II, wasn't it? 1189. Yeah, yeah.
- [22:17]
A
That was very much his Casio era, wasn't it?
- [22:22]
B
Finally, we're going back a century to Eleanor of Aquitaine, right? Yep. The Consort series. Eleanor is born in about 1124, the daughter of William the 10th Duke of Aquitaine and Einar de Chatelrault. And she's possibly the first Eleanor in history.
- [22:37]
A
Yeah. That's amazing, isn't it?
- [22:38]
B
She was technically called Einor, but to differentiate, she was known as sort of Alia Ainor, the other Ainor. And that becomes Eleanor.
- [22:46]
A
Why isn't that more well known? Is it true?
- [22:50]
B
Probably you won't find really many or any Eleanors before that, but because of her afterwards?
- [22:55]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [22:58]
B
Indeed. Including at least one who either is in the audience or was in the audience. I haven't been watching. Following her father's death in 1137, she becomes the Duchess of Aquitaine in her own right. It's a very, very prosperous, very large, about a third of France, in fact, the size of Aquitaine. Really big territory. And very quickly she marries the French dauphin, but by the time they get back to Paris, he's actually become King Louis VII and she is now the Queen of France.
- [23:25]
A
So does that make that bit France? Is this a big.
- [23:29]
B
At this point? Yes. Aquitaine at this point effectively joins with France. So good marriage for Louis and France.
- [23:35]
A
Yeah, he's just hooping them up.
- [23:36]
B
This is hooping up, indeed.
- [23:37]
A
Risk, isn't it? When you. And then you get the lot.
- [23:40]
B
Yeah, he's rolled a six.
- [23:41]
A
Yeah.
- [23:44]
B
Unfortunately, Louis, who is very, very pious, proves not to be a great match for the daughter of a licentious Troubadour. And so they don't really get on terribly well. After Eleanor joins Louis on the Second Crusade, they have to endure a bit of papal couple therapy where the Pope insists they have another go at it.
- [24:05]
A
But are you skipping over the bit where she went on Crusade?
- [24:08]
B
Yeah, yeah, just sort of. We'll come back to that in a bit more detail. Yes, Alan, she does go on the Crusades, which is quite cool.
- [24:13]
A
Very cool. And what does his couple's therapy involve? Well, stand by.
- [24:20]
B
He does a lot of chatty to them. He does a lot of encouraging. And they do have a daughter subsequent to that.
- [24:26]
A
What did he do?
- [24:29]
B
What do you imply?
- [24:29]
A
Oh, hang on. This is only that bell, isn't it?
- [24:32]
B
Need to pass that over to Pontius. Facts, maybe, see if there's.
- [24:34]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [24:34]
B
They'll know an extra element. I don't think we're accusing the Pope of anything other than just really wanting husband and wife to give it another go. Unfortunately, though, that's the second daughter, and they really wanted a son and Eleanor wanted out of the marriage, so still without a son whose legitimacy they need to worry about. And an annulment is agreed. So she gets out of the marriage, gets Aquitaine back, which is pretty impressive. And then just eight weeks later, marries Henry Fitzempress.
- [25:02]
A
But how did he do that? Because it was so hard for Henry. I know there's other stuff going on.
- [25:05]
B
Henry viii.
- [25:07]
A
But there was. And the Pope had just gone through all of his shenanigans. Yeah. And he just gave her an annulment. She must be in force of nature.
- [25:16]
B
I think it's. To me, that's part. I mean, as you would. Starting to decide. Poor old Henry, you get such a hard, hard time of it, doesn't he? But actually, he had a very valid point.
- [25:27]
A
The 8th.
- [25:28]
B
The 8th.
- [25:28]
A
Yeah, it did.
- [25:29]
B
It did tend to be a lot easier to get. It's really, because the Pope, for Henry, was kind of had a sword at his throat. Catherine's nephew. And that was the bit that made it a bit trickier.
- [25:40]
A
Okay, so it's not unusual.
- [25:41]
B
It's not unusual, no. And because they didn't have a son, they didn't have to worry about whether an annulment would make the son not legitimate.
- [25:48]
A
Yeah.
- [25:48]
B
So they're perfectly willing to say, oh, yeah, the daughter's still legitimate.
- [25:51]
A
That doesn't work.
- [25:52]
B
But if it had been the son, then. And probably she wouldn't have been allowed.
- [25:56]
A
Okay. And she has to do that. Leg it across the country in case she's kidnapped.
- [26:00]
B
Yes. All These people who are going to try and kidnap her and thus force her to marry them, which was, again, a horrifying deal. Quite a big thing, obviously a big rival, as he will become to Louis when he becomes Henry II when they marry. He's only about 18, strong, athletic, very charismatic, full of energy, and about 10 years her junior as well. Nine years, I think.
- [26:22]
A
Yeah.
- [26:23]
B
But a much better match in terms of personality. So Eleanor thus becomes Queen of England when Henry becomes King of England. So she's the only woman ever to be Queen of France and to be.
- [26:33]
A
Oh, Rex fact.
- [26:34]
B
Queen of England.
- [26:35]
A
Nice.
- [26:36]
B
I'm learning something. I don't think you've ever mentioned that before.
- [26:40]
A
What about the. No, yeah, that checks out, I think the Empress Matilda.
- [26:46]
B
Yeah, she wasn't the Queen of England or France. I mean, whatever.
- [26:51]
A
Details. What about. Hang on. I'm going to catch him out one day and if it's on stage, it'll better. You trying to think of Henry vi, probably.
- [27:01]
B
He was crowned King of France after Henry V had all his victories.
- [27:05]
A
No, no.
- [27:06]
B
Okay.
- [27:08]
A
What about. No, I can't think. I think you might be right. I think you might be right there, Grant.
- [27:17]
B
Let's assume it. And then if it comes to you later, you just sort of.
- [27:20]
A
There's something.
- [27:20]
B
Let me go.
- [27:21]
A
Okay, fine.
- [27:23]
B
Anyway, so Eleanor, Queen of England, initially, she doesn't really get to do an awful lot because they have a lot of children for the next decade or so. But by 1167, Henry's getting a little bit overstretched. His mother, the Empress Matilda, that he's relied on quite a lot, particularly Normandy, dies and he's struggling a bit with Aquitaine. So Eleanor basically gets to go to Aquitaine with favourite son Richard and just rule in her duchy.
- [27:46]
A
Yeah.
- [27:46]
B
And sort it all out. So she's pretty happy there. But her relationship with Henry does seem to break, down, as happens with the sons as well, possibly because of an affair he has with Rosamund Clifford, possibly because he doesn't give her enough power in Aquitaine. So she joins in that great revolt with her sons in 1173.
- [28:04]
A
So we've had Thomas Becket.
- [28:07]
B
We have.
- [28:07]
A
That's been going on.
- [28:08]
B
Yeah.
- [28:09]
A
They're starting to fall out and it really goes south. Does it actually take to arms? Is it properly like a battle? Yeah.
- [28:17]
B
No, there are battles and there is fighting.
- [28:19]
A
Really?
- [28:19]
B
Yeah.
- [28:20]
A
Is she ever involved in that?
- [28:22]
B
No. And we don't know exactly how involved she is and whether she just sort of has to pick a side and she picks her sons, or if she's a instigator from the off. We don't quite know.
- [28:31]
A
Yeah, but we can. Come on. I mean, this is exactly what Henry would have said. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, yeah. So she is.
- [28:41]
B
Henry definitely has that reaction. So she's imprisoned for the next 15 years. That is the rest of Henry's reign, nicely.
- [28:48]
A
Or.
- [28:48]
B
Oh, yeah. I mean, imprisoned in magnificent castles and in all luxury and riding around on horseback. Tagged.
- [28:57]
A
Yeah, tagged.
- [28:58]
B
Yeah. Well, the break probably does her good because Henry is all worn out and dies in 1189. So Richard the Lionheart, who succeeds him, his first order of becoming king is to have Eleanor released. So, 65, she comes out of 15 years of imprisonment and is immediately put in charge of England.
- [29:15]
A
Golly. I mean, that'd be all right, then. But I mean, imagine if you had someone from 2010 coming back and going, what the hell is going on? I am not fit to rule very much.
- [29:26]
B
Not Eleanor's response. So she sorts everything out for him, gets him crowned, and then he goes straight off, basically, to the Third Crusade.
- [29:35]
A
He's got her in because he wants to go off crusading, safe, fair hands.
- [29:39]
B
Initially, he sends her back to set everything up so that it's ready for him to come and be crowned. And I presume he attacks everyone for the Crusades. Then he heads off to the Crusades, can't be bothered to go to Navarre to pick up his wife. So instead, obviously, he sends Eleanor man. So Eleanor shows up.
- [29:55]
A
He's a playboy, isn't he? I don't like him very much, I think. Did I say that at the time? Did he get it?
- [30:01]
B
He did get the rax factor, yeah.
- [30:02]
A
Okay.
- [30:05]
B
Anyway, Eleanor collects his bride, takes her with her over the. Was it over the Alps? I think it was the Alps. Who he did. And then delivers her to him in Sicily and then has to rush back to England, where John is johnning it up and leading a bit of a rebellion. So she sorts that out. Richard then comes back from the Crusades, but is captured on his way back and John rebels again. So, of course, Eleanor sorts that out, puts John back in his place and raises the huge king's ransom to get Richard released.
- [30:35]
A
When you say put him back in his place, does she. Does she just arrive and take charge? Does she just. And John goes, sorry, I'm really sorry, Mum.
- [30:44]
B
Yeah. I mean, there is, like, castles being besieged and that sort of thing. And again he links up with Philip Augustus of France, who's still doing all of that, you know, kindness. So she sends the French off, gets John sorted out, and then Gets him to stop.
- [30:58]
A
That's the bit. Gets John sorted out. I'd love to be a fly on the wall. Well, it's.
- [31:01]
B
Particularly when Richard comes back and obviously she then has to sort the sons out, get the boys to stop bickering.
- [31:06]
A
Poor woman.
- [31:09]
B
Anyway, Richard does come back, so she sorts the boys out and at that point she goes into retirement at Fontevrault when she's about 71.
- [31:18]
A
Rex Factor.
- [31:19]
B
But she's not done yet because, sadly for her, Richard dies in 1199. So she returns back to the secular world to sort everything out now for John, because John's in a succession battle with his nephew and her grandson, Arthur of Brittany, isn't it? That's what John does to Arthur of Britain. Yes. Ellen is just going around sort of getting everyone to be loyal to him and trying to sort things out. John just kind of messes it all up. But nevertheless, she secures John. Yeah.
- [31:46]
A
Because then she just knows that he isn't capable. Is that it? Or is he just. He's just a live wire.
- [31:51]
B
He's a live wire. Needs some help.
- [31:53]
A
Yeah. Okay.
- [31:55]
B
And the French are the French with Philip Augustus there on the maneuvers as well. So it's a tricky situation.
- [31:59]
A
I think I'm just really interested in this family dynamic. I'm trying to dig deeper and there's just no documents about it.
- [32:05]
B
Anyway, she does secure John on the throne and then she dies quietly in 1204 at the age of 80.
- [32:12]
A
Bossed it. Well done.
- [32:15]
B
So those are the lives and reigns of the three of them. So we will now go into the factors, but just at this point, Ali, how are you feeling about them? How are you comparing them?
- [32:24]
A
I'm totally team Eleanor at the moment because the other two, there's massive bits in there.
- [32:32]
B
How did that.
- [32:33]
A
How did they get here?
- [32:34]
B
To be honest, Graham, I've talked about Eleanor quite a lot recently and it's quite a while since I've done Herreny and Robert, so I sort of.
- [32:42]
A
Yeah, okay.
- [32:43]
B
An interesting point comparison. Henry and Robert both die at 55, 56. Whereas Eleanor. Quite a lot of what really cool that she does is after she comes out of prison when she's 65 and upwards. So her best is sort of the decade after both of them had died.
- [33:01]
A
Voodoo lounged in the 90s from the stones. Get the 80s, just come straight back in and you're fine.
- [33:08]
B
Anyway, let's go into the factors now and see whether that might help you a little bit to remember some of the points for Henry and Robert.
- [33:14]
A
Do I Have to do this bit now.
- [33:15]
B
You'll have to do this bit now. Let's see if you can remember which one's coming first.
- [33:18]
A
I course. I don't know. You've never done that. Okay, fine. Battleiness. He does the entity, kind of.
- [33:33]
B
I remember back from Live Tour, you were getting applause every time you managed
- [33:36]
A
to get a graph by the next night, I'll have it sorted.
- [33:41]
B
So, for this, for the factors, we're going to go in sort of reverse order, lowest score to highest score. So Henry II was the lowest scoring of the game, really, but with 17.
- [33:53]
A
Yeah. Okay. I can't even. Was there a pitched battle to his name?
- [33:58]
B
No. So that's sort of one of the things against him. In his favour. He makes a great start as king. So he used large mercenary forces to overpower previously impregnable castles. So the anarchy, 20 years of all these powerful nobles, big castles, no one can sort it out. Henry just gets loads and loads and loads of people, storms at the castles and very quickly overpowers them.
- [34:19]
A
Okay.
- [34:20]
B
And then he rips them all down. Oh. And builds new and better ones with stone keeps.
- [34:25]
A
Yeah.
- [34:26]
B
Most famously, Dover Castle.
- [34:28]
A
Yeah.
- [34:28]
B
A lot of the great work there was started by Henry. He also then goes up to reclaim Cumbria, Cumberland and Northumberland from Scotland, because that had been lost during the Anarchy. He gets it back pretty much straight away. And after the capture of William the Lion, following the Great Revolt, he then gets the Scots to pay the English to garrison their castles.
- [34:50]
A
Oh, man, that's humiliating. Hang on, who is this? William. Same king, is he. Who's the Scottish person?
- [34:57]
B
William the Lion.
- [34:58]
A
He's still there. Yeah. He's gone back.
- [35:00]
B
Yeah.
- [35:01]
A
And now he's paying to English people in his. He kind of got the breaks back to. Did he?
- [35:06]
B
He didn't know.
- [35:07]
A
No.
- [35:08]
B
It's an awkward return as well. And he's like, great news, guys, I'm back. He'd let you go.
- [35:15]
A
Good break.
- [35:16]
B
In 1171, Henry became the first English king to visit and claim authority in Ireland.
- [35:21]
A
Oh, dear.
- [35:22]
B
Bit of a mixed legacy, ultimately, but an impressive sort of achievement battle. He captured Dublin and received the fealty of various Irish kings. Beyond Britain, of course, he rules the Angevin Empire, the left of France. He rules more of France than the King of France. Yeah.
- [35:37]
A
I mean, it's good this time, isn't it?
- [35:38]
B
That is good. So you've got Normandy, Maine, Anjou, Poitou, Aquitaine, influence over Brittany. Yeah. And he keeps it together through just incessant energy. He's always moving around Zooming around, taking people by surprise by just appearing suddenly part of Europe. So Louis vii, his great rival, described him as a human chariot he must fly rather than travel by horse or ship.
- [36:02]
A
I mean, you'd be pretty pleased if someone describes that, wouldn't you? I'm not in any danger of that, but I'd love that bit.
- [36:09]
B
His most remarkable feat, of course, is coming out on top of that great revolt, 1173-74, involved three of his sons, King of France, King of Scots, three counts, and Eleanor of Aquitaine. But he defeats them all over the course of 18 months.
- [36:22]
A
Yeah, it's pretty good.
- [36:23]
B
William the lion is captured, Eleanor is imprisoned.
- [36:26]
A
How does he. How does he get hold of Eleanor? I mean, she just. She's hiding behind some ambiguity.
- [36:33]
B
I think she was trying to get from one place to another, sort of trying to get there without being seen, but was seen, so is found and captured.
- [36:43]
A
That's the thing, because he sort of. When it comes to battle, she's got a higher score.
- [36:49]
B
But he captured her. Yeah, you could say he won. Now, he's very effective at patrolling his territories and stopping rebellions. He's a bit less adept when he's on the offensive. So he had an attempt to invade Toulouse in 1159, which he had to halt rather abruptly because the King of France was there, he thought. So the Toulouse was separate, an independent county, and he thought the King of France was a. Okay with him taking it. But then he gets there and the King of France is hanging out with the Count of Toulouse, and it's like, oh, okay.
- [37:19]
A
Oh. And so he can't attack, so he just went home.
- [37:22]
B
He had various campaigns into Wales, but wasn't able to enforce conquest there.
- [37:26]
A
Hang on, sorry. So he arrived. Did he just turn away?
- [37:31]
B
Basically, yeah. He comes up with his whole army, thinks, oh, the King of France is there.
- [37:36]
A
That's properly awkward, isn't it? Yeah, because the King of France would know why he's there.
- [37:43]
B
Pretty good at gas. Yeah.
- [37:45]
A
So what did he say?
- [37:47]
B
I mean, he's awkward.
- [37:49]
A
Yeah. Is that just. It's just a big game, then?
- [37:53]
B
It is all a game, isn't it?
- [37:55]
A
Yeah. It's just shocking.
- [37:56]
B
I mean, he's always on the move. He'll just pop up in Dublin the next day, probably, and take everyone by surprise there. Yeah. So he failed to conquer Wales, which I thought was where you're going to pipe in with.
- [38:08]
A
Yeah.
- [38:08]
B
Pointing out what a difficult thing to do that is.
- [38:10]
A
Yeah. I mean, this is. This is sounding like a Henry takedown.
- [38:15]
B
And we could argue the Angevin Empire. A bit of a Victorian misnomer. He never really sees it as an empire. It's just a collection of territories. So he was always intending to split it between his sons.
- [38:26]
A
Right.
- [38:26]
B
He didn't see it like the British Empire, which is, of course, what the Victorians wanted to go for. So it's not really how he saw it. His hoarding of power kind of causes the Great Revolt and indeed, ultimately Richard and Philip's Rebellion in 1189. And, yeah, it is a bit of an ignominious end for Henry.
- [38:43]
A
Yeah. It's a shame. He's very much. But Mr. Castle, so he's on the defensive, doesn't have that big pitch battle moment. And his battles are internal a lot, aren't they? With the family, it's not quite as
- [38:56]
B
glamorous, but at the same time, I guess he's operating on a slightly higher level, whereas you've got, I don't know, later, your Edward IVs who are fighting all these big brutal battles against other bits of England. And Henry's like, I mean, I've got all of this. I don't need to fight battles to rule southwest England, do I?
- [39:16]
A
Yeah, you just got to fight who's in front of you, haven't you?
- [39:19]
B
Indeed. Second of these three, with 19 and a half is Eleanor of Aquitaine.
- [39:29]
A
Robert the Bruce's must be really good, because I am surprised. Okay.
- [39:33]
B
It's pretty good. Eleanor, of course, went on the Crusade.
- [39:37]
A
Yes.
- [39:37]
B
Which is very cool. She does experience some danger on the Crusade as well. The French army were ambushed at Mount Cadmus and she potentially has to sort of run off into the rocks to hide. And on her way home from the Crusades, her ship was held captive by Byzantine pirates for a time. Nice.
- [39:53]
A
I mean, why? This isn't a film you could absolutely think of. The sets you've got pirates tick. That's a blockbuster of itself. We're talking a three parter. Brilliant.
- [40:05]
B
Bit of a budget question, but nevertheless.
- [40:07]
A
Well, get the right people in.
- [40:09]
B
It's true. She gets herself out of an unhappy marriage to the French king, which is impressive, and secures herself a new husband just eight weeks later. And of course, fundamentally shifts the balance of power in Europe through that marriage. Yeah. Nun's in the Great Revolt again. Quite a big bit of agency. Something to do there. The fact that she alone in the family faces punishment. So the sons basically are just let off and they continue as they were before.
- [40:34]
A
Oh, my God.
- [40:35]
B
It's only really Alan that's punished. Which perhaps suggests that she's the one he sees as the real masterminding. Yeah, yeah. And she's most dominant as Queen mother, despite being 65 and having had 15 years in house. House arrest. Out she comes and then comes into her own. So under Richard, she twice thoughts attempted rebellions by John with, again, involvement from the French. So she repelled mercenary forces and had to besiege various castles of John's.
- [41:02]
A
She did.
- [41:03]
B
She was. Well, she's ordering people to do it. You know, that's what kings and queens do. When Richard dies, she throws her weight behind John ahead of Arthur of Brittany, secured homage from her vassals in Aquitaine, and then progressed 400 miles through the countryside and towns up to Normandy.
- [41:19]
A
Nice.
- [41:20]
B
And, you know, she's like 70 at this point as well.
- [41:22]
A
It must have been. Yeah, it's like, what era is that Disney Fox thing, you know, with Robin Hood. Robin Hood, yeah. That's what's going on in my mind.
- [41:32]
B
Well, it is this era, because in that King John frequently says, wait till King John cares about this. And Mummy is.
- [41:38]
A
There you go.
- [41:39]
B
Eleanor.
- [41:40]
A
Yeah.
- [41:40]
B
Off stage.
- [41:41]
A
Not just a hat rack, my friend.
- [41:45]
B
She's quite cunning in the way that she deals with the. Getting John fully in control as well, because she performs homage to Philip Augustus of France for Aquitaine. Highly unusual for a woman to do that in person. But more importantly, the fact that she performs homage or that he receives homage means he is acknowledging Aquitaine as being her territory and as the vassal lord. That effectively means it's partially his rights as well. Which means that Arthur can't challenge Aquitaine because Philip's acknowledged Eleanor.
- [42:18]
A
So why does he go and kill him? Just because he's a nasty bit of work.
- [42:21]
B
Why does John go kill Arthur? Well, yeah, he captures Arthur.
- [42:25]
A
Yeah.
- [42:26]
B
And John probably thinks, well, easiest way to make sure he doesn't do this again is to kill him.
- [42:33]
A
Yeah, Just. It does raise questions about Edgar the Etheling, how that guy.
- [42:38]
B
We were all thinking it,
- [42:41]
A
how he got away with it. I never know.
- [42:44]
B
When John and Philip make peace in 1200. Part of this is that John is going to provide Philip with a bride.
- [42:54]
A
How?
- [42:55]
B
Well, from his family, not just generally or just.
- [42:58]
A
I was gonna say, I'm gonna have a daughter. I can feel it.
- [43:01]
B
It's gonna be one of their family members. It's gonna be a granddaughter. So Eleanor goes across the Pyrenees to collect a granddaughter for Philip to marry as part of the treaty.
- [43:10]
A
Yeah.
- [43:10]
B
Which again, in her mid-70s at this point, and she's crossing the Pyrenees. Richard of Devizes reflected that she was an Incomparable woman, still tireless in all labors at whose ability her age might marvel.
- [43:23]
A
Yeah.
- [43:25]
B
There are some arguments against her, though. The Second Crusade didn't go terribly well for the French.
- [43:31]
A
Yeah.
- [43:32]
B
But they felt that the presence of Eleanor and her vast sort of baggage train wasn't always helpful for their efforts.
- [43:38]
A
Oh, right, okay. So she was actually hindering rather than it just.
- [43:43]
B
Sarah Cockrell. Historians argue that Eleanor was only really peripheral to the great Revolt. So she was responding to it rather than being a driver in what's going on. Right. And the revolt failed. Like you said, she spent 15 years as a prisoner to Henry II.
- [43:58]
A
Yeah, I get. She just plays the long game, though, by not dying. Yeah. If I can keep eating these veggies, I am gonna. I'm gonna come out of here.
- [44:07]
B
But nevertheless, technically, they do come up against each other and Henry does actually win.
- [44:11]
A
Yeah. That is a fly in my otherwise flawless ointment.
- [44:19]
B
Well, neither of them top for battleing us because we got Robert the Bruce with a perfect 20.
- [44:24]
A
Did anyone else get 20?
- [44:26]
B
We have had other people with 20s. Okay.
- [44:28]
A
You haven't got your computer, have you?
- [44:30]
B
Yeah, that's like Henry V. He would have been a 20.
- [44:32]
A
Oh, damn it. Okay, well done.
- [44:35]
B
Now, Robert the Bruce, it's remarkable that he actually managed to secure the French throne. That would have been remarkable. The Scottish throne. You can see why he got a 20. Because at one point, he's down and out on Rathlin. The Comyn family are dominant in most of Scotland. The English are garrisoning all of the castles. He looks pretty bleak.
- [44:55]
A
It's a. What's the Arthur? No, you see, Athelstan's grandfather Alfred moment, isn't it? When he's at his lowest in the marshes. In the marshes, yeah.
- [45:08]
B
And indeed, Robert comes out of the marshes of Rathlin and in just two years, basically has secured control of Scotland from the Commons, at least. So he defeats them in various battles and sieges. The particular one, the battle of Inverurie, he had been ill. Robert the Bruce. So when he raises himself from his sickbed to be there, the very sight of him precipitated a rout.
- [45:29]
A
Right. He didn't fight, did he?
- [45:32]
B
He did.
- [45:33]
A
Gosh, you've gotta be on top form if you're facing, like, mortal combat. You don't. I suppose you're not really thinking about your bowels then, are you? You're just getting on with it.
- [45:44]
B
No. There's a lot of bath on the battlefield, I think. So. Don't worry about the smell. Carry On.
- [45:49]
A
All right.
- [45:50]
B
Indeed. So he sets about retaking all of the major southern castles from English control. One of the most inventive attacks saw the Black Douglas take Roxburgh by getting his men to pretend that they were cows.
- [46:04]
A
Oh, yes. Yeah. But they. I mean, really, did they?
- [46:11]
B
It was dark. You can't see very well.
- [46:14]
A
I can't either, but I know I would know the difference.
- [46:18]
B
Who's down there? I'll let them in. Cows.
- [46:22]
A
It must have come with a lot of a big, like, free wine delivery as well. Madness.
- [46:29]
B
Anyway, so they capture all of these castles by being cows or by other means?
- [46:33]
A
By other means. I reckon they just had. There's no way of me making sense in that situation. I don't know what could have been going on there. It's the only sensible one.
- [46:43]
B
Sensible one? Well, they do more traditional besieging of Stirling Castle, which is the last. It's a provocation Edward II of England can't ignore. So he comes up with a huge army and they have the Battle of Bannockburn. Yeah. Could have been over the day before the battle because an English knight spotted Robert the Bruce on his own, lightly armored and vulnerable. So charges at him in full, you know, armor and lance and everything. Robert waits at the last moment, then quickly leapt up, avoids the lance, cleaves the skull of the English knight. And then when told that was a little bit too risky, he said his only regret was that he broke his favorite axe.
- [47:21]
A
20 points.
- [47:25]
B
And then, of course, we actually have the Battle of Bannocker. The Scots are massively outnumbered in the battle, but nevertheless, they've manoeuvred into a better position than the English, who are sort of trapped in this narrow front between the river and this sort of boggy marshlands and all these stakes and traps the Scots have laid for them. And it's an epic win for Scotland. Greatest victory they have against England. Inflict losses around 11,000 for the English. Edward II himself is almost captured. He has to flee the battle, leaves his baggage train and treasure, just runs for his life.
- [47:54]
A
He was rubbish, wasn't he? Gosh.
- [47:57]
B
But it didn't immediately win independence, so the Scots have to keep on pushing. They conduct raids deep into northern England. So the worst, really, we've seen since the Anarchy.
- [48:07]
A
How far do they go?
- [48:08]
B
Into Yorkshire. Well into Yorkshire.
- [48:10]
A
Right.
- [48:11]
B
They're sort of like sort of northern pirates. So they're sort of just taking all the money, pillaging and plundering with the
- [48:17]
A
intention to go back. Not.
- [48:18]
B
Yeah. And then they go back and with all the Money that they been taking away. But still Edward resisted until, as we said, he is overthrown. Roger Mortimer also fails to invade and when he's defeated, he has to agree independence for Scotland.
- [48:33]
A
Yeah.
- [48:34]
B
Pretty big achievement. Not entirely without blemish, you could say. Obviously early on, Robert does have those early defeats. And although he recovers from it, as we said, you know, you have his various women in his family put in cages. Three of his brothers are killed in those early years as well.
- [48:50]
A
Yeah. And I suppose he wasn't flip flopping between English and Scottish support, it was about him positioning for power. Yeah, it's pretty good, isn't it?
- [49:01]
B
He does also have an invasion of Ireland in 1315. Who does the Scotland do?
- [49:06]
A
Scotland invades Ireland. Yeah.
- [49:08]
B
Initially kind of quite popular. So his brother Edward Bruce is made the high King of Ireland.
- [49:14]
A
But at the same time you got Henry capturing Dublin, you said.
- [49:17]
B
Yeah. So we're sort of following, aren't we? A little bit of a similarity between the two. But it starts well, but it ends badly. So Edward and about 3,000 other Scots are killed in battle three years later and they have to pull out.
- [49:31]
A
Yeah. Now normality is restored and you could
- [49:35]
B
say Robert the Bruce perhaps a bit lucky in his timing. So you know, he becomes king just as Edward I is dying. You then get Edward II for most of it, who's a bit rubbish and you get self control and he's not yet the incredible worry king that you will become. And that's when Robert dies.
- [49:50]
A
Yeah, but you can only fight the battle in front of you.
- [49:54]
B
You can, but as I say, he comes in, great king dies, rubbish king, rubbish king, rubbish king, Great king. Just before he's great, that's when I'm gonna pop my dogs.
- [50:02]
A
Good timing.
- [50:04]
B
Anyway, that's the three of them for battleliness. How are you looking at the three of them there?
- [50:08]
A
I think again, I reckon we're spot
- [50:10]
B
on in the right correct order.
- [50:12]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that works well. Yeah. I'm very surprised that, well, that Robert the Bruce isn't more well known. But those stories and stuff. Again, good film.
- [50:26]
B
Right, next factor Scandal, is it?
- [50:30]
A
Jolly good Scandal.
- [50:35]
B
A genuine heartfelt. Robert the Bruce goes from top to bottom here, albeit he scored 16, so not bad. He had at least five illegitimate children by different women. Some have speculated his later ill health could have been a venereal disease. He was initially a bit of untrustworthy character. We said how he was flip flopping between Scotland, England.
- [50:56]
A
Yeah. And then stabbing that fellow in the church. I mean really.
- [50:59]
B
And yes, he does murder his rival in a church. So presumably he was going to try and persuade him to back him to be king. But obviously the chat doesn't go well. Or perhaps it does go according to plan and he very much always intended to kill him. Yeah, yeah, surely. So whether it's an accident, whether it's on purpose, he nevertheless murders the most powerful noble in Scotland of royal blood at the high altar of the church, which results in him being excommunicated and launching a civil war.
- [51:29]
A
Yeah. That's pretty heavy. Is it? It's a bit of a decision.
- [51:33]
B
It is. So he was in third place. Second is Henry II, 17 and a half, but perhaps undermarked, when you sort of read through it all, he's not on the same scale as his grandfather, Henry I, who is England's most prolific illegitimate adulterer in terms of royal kings. But still, as William Newber put it, he did exceed the conjugal limit, which is around 11 illegitimate children, and then you're fine. And that's a bit too many. That's a little bit too many. The most notable of his affairs was with Rosamund Clifford, which helped break his marriage to Eleanor, leading to the Great Revolt. And indeed, let's not forget the fact that he marries Eleanor of Aquitaine Toll just a few weeks after she's divorced the King of France. And ultimately he imprisons her, his wife for 15 years.
- [52:20]
A
And we haven't even touched on the
- [52:23]
B
Archbishop, we haven't even touched on the Archbish. But before we touch on the Archbish, Henry touches on a daughter of Louis vii, Princess Alice.
- [52:32]
A
Does he indeed? Right.
- [52:34]
B
That's why a subsequent marriage. So it's not a daughter of Eleanor's.
- [52:38]
A
What has he done?
- [52:39]
B
He has an affair with a daughter of Louis vii, who is, by a subsequent marriage of Louis I, not Eleanor's daughter, but she is betrothed to Henry's son, Richard the Lionheart, the dirty dog. And understandably, perhaps a bit of a source of tension between him and Richard.
- [52:57]
A
This is what I mean, this family dynamic. I really, really want to explore this,
- [53:01]
B
but as you said, this is small fry compared to. Yeah, the Bish. So Thomas Becket hacked down at the very altar of Canterbury Cathedral. That comes off the back of a decade almost, of Beckett being in exile for resisting Henry's attempts to assert more control over the.
- [53:16]
A
The Church.
- [53:17]
B
And, yeah, it scandalises Christendom could easily have brought Henry down. He basically shuts the ports so that papal agents can't get to England to excommunicate him. And then Legs it just.
- [53:28]
A
Yeah.
- [53:29]
B
And then he legs it off to Ireland, does he? That's basically why he asserts control over Ireland, because he had to get out of town quickly. Wow, where's this? Well, I'm king wherever. I think we docked him a few points because he didn't perhaps didn't intend for Beckett to be killed. So according to legend, people say, who will rid me of this turbulent priest? He said something a bit more long winded than that, but it gets to the nub of the matter. He said something loud and cross and some drunken knights heard him and thought, oh, let's kill him then.
- [53:58]
A
I can't believe he didn't get 20 because that. Everyone knows about that.
- [54:02]
B
Yeah. I think on reflection, maybe he did deserve the 20. Who did Henry VIII get a 20? Henry VIII did get a 20. And indeed top of these three, Ellen of acronym got a 20. So as we discussed, in prison for 15 years, was siding against Henry in the great revolt. Like the way that that works both ways. It's quite scandalous to imprison your wife. It's also quite scandalous to lead a revolt against your husband.
- [54:23]
A
Yeah, it sort of evens out, doesn't it?
- [54:25]
B
Evens out nicely. They should have just shaken hands and carried on.
- [54:28]
A
Yeah, well, it is a gigantic tussle. It's like Tyrannosaurus Rex versus that giant fella, King Kong. You know, when they do that thing, it will come to one moment where they've eaten.
- [54:41]
B
Henry didn't initially believe that she was involved, so he even actually left some of the sons with her. And then she sent them off to Louis, who is of course Henry's rival, but also her ex husband.
- [54:51]
A
Oh my God.
- [54:52]
B
Again, the family dynamic.
- [54:54]
A
Yeah.
- [54:54]
B
So she does betray him. Even if she isn't the prime movie, she does betray him in some way.
- [54:58]
A
They're just objects, aren't they? There's no. I'm trying to understand it from a point of view of an emotion, but they're just pieces on a board that are being moved around.
- [55:08]
B
She's accused of numerous high profile affairs. So her own uncle Raymond of Antioch on the second Crusade. So that would have been incestuous royal adultery on a crusade where sex with anyone is a grievous sin.
- [55:19]
A
Yeah, I spy Book. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.
- [55:24]
B
She did marry her husband's enemy just eight weeks after annulling the marriage. With the added spice that it's king of France and King of England and the speed with which it happens makes some people think that maybe they'd already hooked up right. Walter Mapp slept with Henry's father before the marriage, but he was somewhat after the event.
- [55:40]
A
So possibly I can't take any more scandal from that.
- [55:44]
B
Well, there are a lot of colourful legends, perhaps too many. So we've got her apparently riding as a bare breasted Amazonian with her ladies. When recruiting for the Second Crusade, she was accused of having an affair with Saladin William the Marshal, attempting to blackmail Robin Hood into bed and murdering Henry's mistress, Rosamund Clifford.
- [56:01]
A
I mean, did you say those to the end? Because they're the ones that are definitely nonsense.
- [56:05]
B
Yeah. Okay, so saladin was only 11 and in a completely different part of the country that Eleanor, Robin Hood obviously isn't actually, as far as we know, wandering around and she probably couldn't be bothered to murder one of Henry's mistresses. It's a bit beneath her.
- [56:21]
A
What was the first one?
- [56:24]
B
Which was the first one? Saladin William Marshall's in there somewhere. Okay.
- [56:29]
A
There was one I thought might be implausible then.
- [56:32]
B
So scandal. Are you happy with that order or do you think that's.
- [56:36]
A
No, I think they should both be at 20. Eleanor and Henry.
- [56:42]
B
Yeah. It was Robert the Bruce. Although he does have the illegitimate children, he does kill somebody at High altru. The Church. We've had that.
- [56:49]
A
But it's a big score. It's a great big score. I mean, as soon as he's made that decision and he goes, that's 17 points at least.
- [57:00]
B
Or 16 as we go then.
- [57:01]
A
Yeah, but the others you just. Yeah, it's because it's made it through into this very specific textbook I had at school. And so good at those points.
- [57:12]
B
Right, Next factor.
- [57:14]
A
Baffling scandal. Subjectivity. Yay.
- [57:21]
B
Now this was Eleanor's weakest factor, so she Only scored an 11th. Subjectivity. She brings elements of the Aquitanian troubadour tradition to London and Paris. And her son Richard is a noted troubadour.
- [57:33]
A
Really?
- [57:33]
B
So he's a singer songwriter as well as mass murderer.
- [57:35]
A
Oh, I bet he was awful. Not as in untalented. I bet if he had a. You had a barbecue, he'd turn up with his acoustic, you know, went home to get it.
- [57:47]
B
And she is something of cultural muse as well. So contemporary versions of Guinevere and Cressida probably have kind of based on her and they very much shaped future retellings of that story. Nice. She provides strong leadership and stability as Queen Mother. So Richard granted her the power of doing whatever she wished in the kingdom and said that her word should be law. In all matters.
- [58:07]
A
God, that's a hell of a skill, isn't it? It's a proper I rule this place superpower.
- [58:12]
B
I'd love that. And she's a very effective governor for Richard. She standardized weights, measures and coinage and ensured that nobles are united in resisting John's various machinations against Richard. But her time actually as queen doesn't really have an awful lot that she does. Not much power, less than the Norman queens that had preceded her. And then she has a few years ruling Aquitaine before the Great Revolt sees her imprisoned for 15 years, which isn't ideal behavior for a consort to rebel against. The king might argue.
- [58:44]
A
Yeah, the first. First rule, isn't it so. But at least you didn't go into legal reform or, you know, that's always the danger in this category.
- [58:55]
B
So I'm happy that is coming later. First, though, Robert the Bruce.
- [58:59]
A
Okay.
- [59:00]
B
He scored 15 and a half as subjectivity. His major legacy, of course, is securing Scottish independence, because in 1296, Edward I effectively subsumed Scotland into England. Steals the crown jewels. It's not a country anymore.
- [59:13]
A
Stone of scoon and all that.
- [59:14]
B
Stone of scoon. But just over 30 years later, Robert secured legal recognition from England that Scotland is independent.
- [59:21]
A
30 years. I mean, yeah. Just seems so much can happen, can't it? Just look back to 30 years from now.
- [59:30]
B
War of independence can happen.
- [59:32]
A
Yeah.
- [59:33]
B
He also got a marriage between Robert's son and a younger sister of Edward iii, as well as the. So what was that bit? He got a marriage alliance. So his son, Edward III's younger sister.
- [59:43]
A
Marry to unite their kingdoms.
- [59:46]
B
No, just marrying each other. But it's, you know, again, it's recognition of Scotland now, because that was what
- [59:50]
A
Edward was going to do, wasn't it? He had a marriage. That was the.
- [59:54]
B
Margaret the Maid of Norway was going to marry Edward ii and that would
- [59:57]
A
have been it for Scotland.
- [60:02]
B
That was the name of the first laugh. Scottish nationhood was powerfully asserted in the declaration of our growth we mentioned earlier. So particular for so long as only a hundred of us stand, we will never yield to the dominion of England. We fight not for glory, nor for wealth nor honour, but for that freedom which no good man surrenders but with his life.
- [60:23]
A
Yeah, it's pretty. I mean, you can see where they got those elements of Braveheart from. They just attributed it to. Mel.
- [60:28]
B
Yeah, we're just going to cut that to freedom. Yeah, It's a bit long winded. It's not just fighting that Robert does as well. So he's the first Scottish King to hold near annual parliaments, restores the old alliance with France, as well as renewing trade links with various other European nations. Pope moves from excommunicating Robert to granting Scottish kings the use of holy oil to anoint their monarchs for the first time. Which kind of raises Scottish kingship to the level of English in that sea. In that sense, despite near constant warfare, property disputes are largely still being resolved through courts of law. So, you know, law and order is still being maintained despite everything that's going on. And they do do a lot of work in some of the most sort of affected areas of war to restore, you know, the towns and so it'd
- [61:13]
A
be a nice time after all the nonsense at the start.
- [61:16]
B
Well, they're trying, ultimately, really. It's not a nice time if you're a subject. The bruise as hard as he's trying. These years of devastation, civil war. We also have a devastating famine. The raids into northern England, they ultimately bring back a cattle plague which kills 50 cows.
- [61:32]
A
It's just. It's such a depressing time, isn't it?
- [61:36]
B
It's a lot of mud around there, isn't there?
- [61:38]
A
Yeah, there's a lot of mud. And you're just constantly damp and cold and just.
- [61:43]
B
And Robert has to keep the nobles on side because obviously his succession isn't entirely accepted at first. And he does so by giving loads and loads and loads of lands and titles away, which kind of stores up problems for his successors and his son, who, of course, has to face Edward III as well in his prime. So Robert does well, but he's not left it in a great state. Perhaps top Subjectivity, however, with 17, is Henry II. He does a great job at restoring royal authority after the anarchy. So, as I said, royal revenues were around £10,500 a year when he becomes king, which is about half the level of Henry I before the war. Henry gets it up to £22,000 a year, doubles. He leaves a remarkable legacy for the good of his subjects. So he replaces corrupt sheriffs with more trustworthy itinerant justices who tour the country every other year to hear legal disputes.
- [62:36]
A
That's why you have judges going roundabout. Okay.
- [62:41]
B
Indeed. So he really does lay the groundwork for English common law. So also largely removes trial by combat and ordeal and establishes the principle of trial by jury. Yeah, well, he's very involved in this. Like, he has long legal debates into the night with his advisors. He's riding all day and then he just chats.
- [62:59]
A
Was that a passion of his?
- [63:00]
B
This passion? So he sits in on various hearings as well, and gives judgments and stuff as well. So he's into it. Surprisingly humble in his taste as well. So he's very, very powerful, but he's got no interest in pomp or ceremony. He wears quite a sort of low level tunic, doesn't like to dress up, was said to be quite approachable and unassuming when people were petitioning him. And he was always listening quite patiently whenever they came to him. And he could be capable of great generosity as well. He sent grain to feed 10,000 people amidst a famine in Maine and Anjou in 1176. And he had a Templar Knight distribute a tenth of food at court to the poor good man secretly as well. So it's not something he's doing for show. He does just do it. And seeks to protect victims of shipwrecks. He increases penalties against brigands and robbers that target them.
- [63:47]
A
Brilliant. What did he get?
- [63:50]
B
He got a 17. So the big thing is against him. The crisis with Beckett is largely of his own making. So Empress Matilda and Eleanor both advised him not to pick Beckett.
- [64:01]
A
But why is that? Bad subjectivity. Oh, because no one can take communion in the whole country or just him?
- [64:06]
B
Well, just because it doesn't go very well. Ultimately. It's this big 10 years of fighting over what's going on and then the scandal afterwards. So he doesn't get to assert royal control over the Church. Hence, effectively, we still have canon law, because Henry didn't manage to bring it all into central control, which is what
- [64:24]
A
they're all coming together.
- [64:25]
B
And he's got a notorious Plantagenet temper that could just boil over at any moment. So he had 22 Welsh prisoners mutilated after his failed campaign in 1165, seemingly just because he was cross.
- [64:35]
A
Oh, dear. So he needed golf or something. Just get it out of your system, Henrik.
- [64:41]
B
And when he heard someone praising the King of Scots in his presence, he got so cross that he rolled off his bed and started chewing the straw with rage.
- [64:49]
A
I've been there, I've sympathized.
- [64:55]
B
But still a genuine legacy. Henry leaves lots of really impressive stuff.
- [65:00]
A
That's really good. I mean, in the battle between him and Eleanor that's going on, that is his category.
- [65:06]
B
How's Robert doing? Securing Scottish now. Trickier one now. Which is next?
- [65:15]
A
Oh, no. Scandal. Subjectivity. Is dynasty or longevity, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. I don't know.
- [65:29]
B
Dynasty comes soon.
- [65:32]
A
Longevity. I mean, you do always do them in this order. Yeah, but you.
- [65:39]
B
I mean, I suppose you do hear them. You don't hear yourself saying that. But you do.
- [65:43]
A
Yes. I mean, yeah, there is. It is familiar, I'll give you that.
- [65:47]
B
I don't listen to this. So longevity. Robert the Bruce had the shortest reign of the three. He ruled from 1306 to 1329, so 26 and a half years. Now, in the combined spreadsheet I have, which is why I've got the three series, all of them in one lot. Because longevity and Dynasty, we score, not us judging it, but it's kind of on quartiles, based on whoever's got the top score. So series to series, the top score will change, but when you put them into one, spreadsheet comes out of 20, just in case there's anyone who's got every score memorized and things. That's not what he got originally. So he gets a score of 14 for longevity. He came 17th in his series, 51st across the three series. So not bad, but not amazing. Henry II is next. He ranked from 1154 to 1189, 34.5 years. So he got a score of 16. 12th in the original series, 28th across the three. But top for longevity, we've got Eleanor of Aquitaine, 49.3 total years of queenship, 1154 to 1201. But we always halve the time they have as Queen mother, so 41.9 years. She gets given fourth place in the consort series and 13th best overall. 16 and a half.
- [66:58]
A
I think, though, it's going to be mostly about the subjective factors, isn't it, in this.
- [67:03]
B
It feels funny, though, she's not got that much bigger a score than Henry ii, despite the fact that she goes on for quite a while after him.
- [67:09]
A
Right. Because there was other consorts who lived a long time.
- [67:13]
B
Victoria. And just because we halved that Queen Mother time.
- [67:17]
A
Yeah, when you say words like that,
- [67:21]
B
she's one of the highest scores when we're together. Yeah, indeed. So we've done longevity. That must mean that next is Dynasty. Do you remember what you said?
- [67:30]
A
No, not the program.
- [67:34]
B
Now, this is interesting. Robert the Bruce is originally credited with having had three legitimate surviving children. But having had a quick look at him again to refresh my memory of him, it seems that actually four of his six surviving children survived him, so he was under marked, so he's getting some extra points here. So he originally would have had a score of 12, but that now goes up to 15.
- [67:53]
A
Uh oh.
- [67:55]
B
So for Dynasty, that actually draws him level with Henry and Eleanor, who obviously have the same Dynasty score. So they had four legitimate surviving children as well, two kings and two queens.
- [68:05]
A
Brilliant.
- [68:06]
B
So they all have four legitimate surviving children.
- [68:08]
A
It is just about the subjective ones here, actually. How do they do? Are you going to do that?
- [68:14]
B
Well, yes. So they've all already got that certain something. But nevertheless, this is where we would start to consider the Rex factor. So it's not all about the scores, but very close between them. Sorry? Very close between the three of them and even closer thanks to Robert getting a little boost with his extra points. So he remains third three for his score, but he's gone up from 77 and a half to 80.5. Now, it's interesting because in the combined series he was joint fourth, but because he's got some extra marks, he now moves into overall fourth in his own. Right.
- [68:55]
A
Okay. Yep.
- [68:55]
B
So we can finally confirm that, having been level on points originally with Edward I. Oh, seriously, Robert the Bruce is now officially sitting here.
- [69:06]
A
Well, he is. Don't vote for him. Really? So now Edward is in fifth.
- [69:11]
B
Yeah.
- [69:12]
A
That is appalling.
- [69:16]
B
Maybe I'll check Edward later and see if I miscounted any of his children.
- [69:19]
A
He definitely had another little one.
- [69:22]
B
Anyway, so Robert moves up to 80.5. Eleanor just behind with 82. And she is just half a mark behind Henry II on 82 and a half. When we originally did them on the combined spreadsheet, Henry II and Eleanor were on the same score, but because longevity is based on the longest reigning person, and that was Elizabeth II who was still reigning, her longevity went up sufficiently that the quartiles changed and Eleanor just dropped down slightly.
- [69:51]
A
Oh, dear.
- [69:52]
B
And lost half a mark.
- [69:53]
A
Oh, dear. So hang on. Fourth. So who was the interloper there? Wasn't there another person in third overall then?
- [70:01]
B
I think Isabella. Isabella.
- [70:03]
A
Oh, yeah. Okay.
- [70:04]
B
It's good. But it's not all about the scores. Oh. Although you want to know about the subjective factor. Subjective factors? Actually, Henry II and Robert the Bruce a joint first with 51.5. Eleanor just behind them with 50.5.
- [70:22]
A
It's that subjectivity, isn't it? Darn.
- [70:26]
B
But it's not all about the scores. We aren't going to decide today, but what are your thoughts at the moment to leave everybody with before they make their judgments? Wise words. Thank you,
- [70:48]
A
Eleanor. I was thinking for me, if I were there, if I had that power, I'd be saying, Eleanor, Henry, the other
- [70:57]
B
fellow, the other fella. You weren't impressed by his incredible battliness? All the things he wins, the way he overtook Edward I first to be such a superior and obviously better King Scottish independence.
- [71:12]
A
I mean, they've all. They're all good. They're all good. Is that a helpful thing to say? What about you? Have you changed your mind across any of them? I mean, I tell you what, I was surprised at those weaknesses. I heard about Henry II because I was expecting him to. The fact that he imprisoned Eleanor for that bit, for that to be the immovable object meets the unstoppable force decider.
- [71:39]
B
Yeah.
- [71:41]
A
But no, I think, I think she pips it for me.
- [71:43]
B
English common law, all that sort of stuff. Restoring order after the anarchy.
- [71:47]
A
I mean. Yeah, that as well.
- [71:49]
B
You did say thank goodness there was no legal reform.
- [71:52]
A
Yeah, there you go.
- [71:54]
B
Well, it's not us that's gonna side, it's you, the audience. So as I said at the start, you should all have a voting slip at your chair. And we did alternate chairs for pencils because we didn't have enough. If you don't have a form, then there might be some other chairs that have forms that don't do it. This might be the point at which the. If we could get the lights on for everybody so you can see what you're doing. So we're doing the ranked choice voting that we did in the playoff. So that means you need to put them in order. So first, second and third. So one column, one vote for each.
- [72:29]
A
How are we going to do that in time? Have you got your special system?
- [72:32]
B
I've got. My mum and dad very kindly are going to count everybody's votes. So what we'll do, we'll give you a couple of minutes to start your voting and then we'll do a Q and A if anyone's got any questions.
- [72:43]
A
Oh, and that's when that will be
- [72:45]
B
and then that's when that will be being counted. So we'll leave that for a couple of of minutes. Let's see how we go.
- [72:52]
A
K Pop Demon hunters Saja boys breakfast meal and hunt tricks meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day. It is an honor to share. No, it's our honor. It is our larger honor. No, really stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side.
- [73:20]
B
Participating McDonald's while supplies last. Right. So as that's being collected and then my parents are very kindly going to try and figure out how to do ranked choice voting. Does Anyone have any questions that they would like to ask us either about the Grand Final people or just any other X Factoriness or just questions and you just happened to ask us. That was the first chap I saw there with the glass and yes, waving. I admit I haven't watched a listened
- [73:49]
A
to all your episodes yet, but in the first series, I think we all kind of knew how Ellie felt about being crowned X Factor with overall. But I'm not entirely sure you ever said yourself correct
- [74:01]
B
in the first one or in the recent.
- [74:06]
A
We all got sent to Annual.
- [74:17]
B
So that question is who I would have been backing in the first series of X Factor. I think probably Head over Heart. I would have gone with Henry ii. I just think because I guess because I just didn't know any. I didn't really know anything about him before. Before we started doing it. So I think I was really impressed by all of his legacy and the Angevin Empire and the whole story. And probably one of those where ironic doing it now and today. But where Eleanor of Aquitaine would have been a big part of that. Just that whole court where you've got Richard and John and William Marshall Beckett. It's such this amazing period. I think we often say if you had a Holbein at that court to get the portraits of them all, it'd be amazing. But yeah, I think Alfred probably did become something of a favorite for me in the series are the ones that I learned about just really because he's, you know, he's the sort of the founding father effectively of England. He's the one that sets the vision, defeats the Vikings.
- [75:11]
A
I am so surprised by that. It's just if you'd asked me that question about him, I'd have never said you thought Arthur.
- [75:21]
B
Alfred and I used to think that that was a sort of a Freudian slip on Ali's part as to how impressive Alfred is that Ali kept mistaking him for Arthur. But it's only in subsequent years I've realized that Ali doesn't really know Arthurian lore at all. So he's just two names that he doesn't really know anything about.
- [75:37]
A
I've seen again, I've seen that Disney thing where he turns him into a fish.
- [75:40]
B
Oh, yes.
- [75:42]
A
Is that him? No, that's Sword in the Stone.
- [75:44]
B
Don't think he turns. No, Sword in the Stone is the Arthurian one. I don't think he becomes a fish. He becomes a squirrel. Does he become a fish as well?
- [75:51]
A
He comes. He definitely comes. Graham. I know my fish.
- [75:56]
B
That's true. That's true. So, yeah, I probably still would have gone Henry ii. But, yeah, Alfred was something of a favour.
- [76:05]
A
Anyway, you think you know a person.
- [76:07]
B
Okay, Ali's shot by that. All right, Anybody else? Yes, Ali.
- [76:12]
A
Do you know who Emma of Normandy is?
- [76:14]
B
Oh, question. Does Ali know who Emma of Normandy is?
- [76:23]
A
Now, I was about to say with really. With great conviction, what you're witnessing right now is one of those things where you go, I know it's A, so therefore it's B, because it's not B. And then I'm confusing myself. So. Of Normandy.
- [76:41]
B
Yeah. This is where you get unstuck.
- [76:43]
A
Yes. So that means that is not correct.
- [76:47]
B
Well, I mean, it is Emma of
- [76:48]
A
Normandy, but that's where I'm. But the thing that you're filling in is, isn't.
- [76:55]
B
It's hard to know at this stage. You're gonna have to just commit yourself to one of them.
- [76:59]
A
No, I mean William the Conqueror's wife. But then, you see, I thought that. But didn't have a B. But I knew it was B.
- [77:13]
B
It's Ethelred and Canute Wife.
- [77:16]
A
Yeah.
- [77:17]
B
Only want to be queen to two. So she's the grand aunt. Great aunt of William the Conqueror.
- [77:25]
A
That's why she didn't get a fair trial from me in the. In the. But so not boat person.
- [77:33]
B
Well, no.
- [77:36]
A
Yeah.
- [77:36]
B
Yeah. So no is the answer. Ali still doesn't know who Emma Normandy is. Yes.
- [77:42]
A
So in season two, one of the
- [77:44]
B
iconic moments was a hashtag, remember if. More for you, Graham, because you're doing
- [77:51]
A
most of the research.
- [77:53]
B
Most
- [77:56]
A
who from season one and season three would be your hashtag, remember? Oh, good question.
- [78:02]
B
Oh, good. So Scottish series, we had a king called Aieth, who. There was a great line. There was nothing about him at all. And there was a chronicle which basically said, the shortness of his reign has bequeathed nothing memorable to history.
- [78:15]
A
That's the only evidence we have he existed.
- [78:17]
B
He was king. He just made nothing. So we came up with rememberiath to remember him. So the question is, who from series one and series three would be the equivalent of a hashtag rememberiath. I mean, for Ali, it's quite a large list.
- [78:31]
A
So stressful. Yeah. I'd just text you.
- [78:35]
B
Who would it be? First series hashtag member. Who were the ones? We'd. I'd think probably a Saxon. I'd assume one of the Saxon ones. They'd not be very much about. But they've all got. The thing is, the Saxon kings all had a little something about them.
- [78:50]
A
Yeah.
- [78:50]
B
So you'd have the One that chewed his food and spat it out. You had the bedroom, the coronation threesome. One you had Edgar Edward the Martyr. Wasn't very memorable, but the martyr kind of is a thing.
- [79:05]
A
Death by robber.
- [79:07]
B
No, the notorious thief that murdered Edmund the First.
- [79:10]
A
Okay.
- [79:12]
B
Yeah. I don't know. That's hard. They've all sort of got a little something about them. For the consorts, the Saxon consorts, there was very, very little in some of them to the extent where you're debating the extent to which they're one person or two people. You know there's a child, so you know that there was someone involved at some point beyond that. So one of them, probably.
- [79:32]
A
Yeah.
- [79:32]
B
I like that. The one that inspired the consort limericks was one who had three variations of the name, but we said them all together, which was Etheldrida, Anida, Candida.
- [79:42]
A
Oh, that was brilliant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was that. The birth of Louisa's.
- [79:46]
B
That was the birth of consort limericks. Because you wanted a consort. You wanted a limerick for Etheldrida.
- [79:51]
A
I'm so glad. Please. That's the thing.
- [79:53]
B
Maybe hashtag remember Ethelvleider Candida.
- [79:58]
A
Yeah, yeah. Good call. Good call.
- [80:01]
B
Let's go further back with the sunglasses on there.
- [80:06]
A
What are your favourite Scottish monarchs?
- [80:08]
B
What are our favourite Scottish monarchs? Now, I suspect for Ali, he may remember that we've been discussing Robert the Bruce, but he probably want me to.
- [80:17]
A
He's my absolute favourite.
- [80:18]
B
Who were your other favourite? Do any jump I.
- [80:25]
A
The episode's out today, but James vi, he was fun.
- [80:28]
B
James the Sixth of Scots.
- [80:29]
A
Yeah.
- [80:30]
B
Impressive that, you know that. That came out today as well. Yeah.
- [80:33]
A
I've got my finger on this Rex actor pulse, my friend. That's ages old as well. Yeah, yeah. I'd go for it. I mean, he is just at the top of my mind at the moment because he's the latest one.
- [80:46]
B
But, yeah, I think James iv, I'd say. And that might be when I remind you who he is, the one that you like. So he was king for quite a while. It's kind of this golden age period. He's sort of almost pre Henry viii, but he dies at Flodden. So he's the last monarch to die in battle in the British Isles. But he has this Renaissance court, he builds great warships, but he also does his other fun stuff. So, like, he got into amateur dentistry.
- [81:13]
A
Yes.
- [81:14]
B
He sponsored this flying experiment.
- [81:16]
A
Yes.
- [81:17]
B
You have these great sort of Scottish MacArthur's, these great poets who were around at the time who have these rap battles and lots of swearing.
- [81:22]
A
Yeah.
- [81:23]
B
And it's very cultured. He had loads of illegitimate children and fun stuff going on. It was just. He was quite a fun one. There was just lots going on and it felt like it was. The period at Scotland was really kind of almost at a zenith.
- [81:33]
A
Yeah.
- [81:33]
B
And then he and basically all of the other leading nobles die at Flodden, and then it all goes down again. So I thank him. Although Constantine II was fun as well. He was a bit of an Alfred one. He was the sort of early period, one that is king for a long time and effectively makes Scotland. So he's the same time as Athelstan.
- [81:52]
A
Okay. Was it Malcolm that was the mass murderer then?
- [81:55]
B
Malcolm II was a mass murderer, yeah. Yeah. Okay.
- [82:00]
A
I mean, that is an excellent summary of my memory of season two.
- [82:05]
B
But, yeah, James IV for me. Okay. Yes, lady here. What made us decide to make Scandal a positive attribute? I think we didn't think about the idea, which I think Thomas Rankham did, of taking away points rather than adding.
- [82:25]
A
Yeah, that never came. Yeah, that was never a thing. I think it was just. It was sort of like notoriety.
- [82:31]
B
Yeah.
- [82:31]
A
So what you'd remember through history, I suppose.
- [82:35]
B
Yeah. So it's like greatness in sort of inverted commas. So it's not necessarily great to mean good, but to be powerful and memorable. And it felt like scandal notoriety, whether they make it into the front pages, don't really do very well in battleliness, and they don't really leave much of a lasting legacy. So it's nice to give them a chance to, you know, make their mark.
- [82:57]
A
That is so true. It's like headline ability, really. Yeah. It's what would get you on the front page.
- [83:05]
B
And it's partly by accident, but it does mean you have quite different characteristics where they can score points battling the scandal subjectivity. You can do all three, but equally you might just do well in one, which I think I quite like. Okay. Yes. You mentioned that you didn't know much
- [83:21]
A
about Henry II before. Starting from a research perspective, what's the kind of story you've come across that you'd be most excited to share?
- [83:31]
B
So, from a perspective of my research, what's the story I've been most excited to share? I mean, there have been many interesting stories, of course, over the three series, so it's hard to pick from so many. I think it's usually just a little snippet. So something like Harold Bluetooth.
- [83:49]
A
Yeah.
- [83:50]
B
And so Harold Bluetooth is a Danish king and he brought various different sort of Danish, bit like alpha Danish kingdoms together and Sort of forged it into Denmark. And then, obviously, many years later, when they're coming up with a name for this wireless technology that sort of fuses stuff together, they used Bluetooth as the name. And the Bluetooth symbol is HB in runes. Hal. Bluetooth.
- [84:15]
A
I mean, that knocked my socks off when you told me that. That was. That must have been the birth of Rex Fact as a sort of subcategory, possibly. Yeah. Loved that.
- [84:26]
B
So, yeah, it's usually things like that or kind of quite fun, little scandalous things, I think. Oh, Ali's gonna enjoy this. He's gonna like this. Oh, I see an approaching. Approaching boy. What have you got there?
- [84:40]
A
He scores.
- [84:41]
B
Oh, wow, the scores.
- [84:44]
A
Oh, we've got two more. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [84:51]
B
Oh, we've got some uncounted scores. Oh, it could all change.
- [84:55]
A
Do you want these? How many?
- [84:56]
B
Answer maker.
- [84:58]
A
I'll take a question if any of you have to.
- [84:59]
B
Oh, yeah, you take a question. I'll just double check. I don't think. No spoilers, but I don't think it's going to affect them.
- [85:08]
A
Oh. Whooping cushion. Rupert. Oh, sorry, yeah, hello. Forgot where I was for a minute. What's the scores? Oh, God, I tell you, I know Arthur would be a good one from pointing up there at the castle and
- [85:36]
B
you don't mean Alfred, you actually mean.
- [85:38]
A
Yeah, yeah, there you go. Yeah. No, that I'd like for Graham to get to the bottom of. Perkin Warbeck, so to speak, and his mate, whatever is. Yeah, all that business. I think that that's what I like about it, though, because he'll. He'll come up with something that I've never heard of, and it would just be an incredible movie script waiting to happen. Yeah, they're my three, and I'm very glad I got through that. Thank you.
- [86:11]
B
So I'm just working just to get a percentage.
- [86:15]
A
Oh, God. Oh, my word. Why have I never had that thought before?
- [86:22]
B
Was that a plant? If you put that question out there.
- [86:27]
A
Oh, my word. Okay, okay. Dover Spitfire. Obviously. Let's just sort that right out. Lancaster Beaumaris. No, no, no, because that was unfinished. There's some unfinished great ones. So probably Beaumaris would be like the Hawk de Havilland Hornet. Not finished quite in time, but otherwise absolutely perfect. Oh, this is brilliant stuff, isn't it?
- [87:03]
B
Could we not have led with this and then just done the rest of
- [87:06]
A
the show at the end? Exactly. All this stuff you were talking about beforehand. Come on. I'm gonna have to think about that. But I'm pretty sure those. Yeah, yeah, that's gonna. I'm gonna have to ruminate on that. Those two, though, those are my two favourites, I think, and they're perfect. What a great bunch of questions.
- [87:28]
B
Okay, any other questions? Yes, and then come to you. So, yes.
- [87:33]
A
What's the story of how Rex Factor started?
- [87:36]
B
What's the story of how Rex Factor started? So Ali and I went to. We worked at the same place when the graduates came together, so we used to sort of hang out quite a bit. It was local government, so we spent quite a lot of time at lunch hanging out in the garden.
- [87:52]
A
In the garden in the park.
- [87:54]
B
And yeah, we just sort of got chatting about things that we were interested in. History was one of them. We were both quite into podcasts, even though it was quite early on in the podcast days at that point.
- [88:03]
A
I blooming loved. I just loved this, Jen. I was trying to make friends with an otherwise random group of about 10 of us all on the same program, and we just sort of kept bumping into each other and then having the sort of same quote, arsenal ready to go at any one time. And. Yeah, it was lunch, wasn't it? You were just saying we would have
- [88:26]
B
had a debate about like, probably Edward I and Henry VIII at that point.
- [88:31]
A
Which. Yeah. Which I just wasn't having. I was definitely coming from a point of passion compared to your point of, well, knowledge. But there was. Yeah, we needed to rank this somehow.
- [88:49]
B
And I think I went on, I remember going to Wikipedia and looking. I thought, I wonder what all of the English kings are like. And I remember just looking at the Saxon ones and as I said, all of them had a little something about them. I thought they're all quite fun and I thought it seemed quite a fun idea that each of them, however obscure, would get, like a period of time, an episode of a podcast that would be out there on the Internet for the whole world. Just about this quite obscure.
- [89:11]
A
Just about the same time that we were. You'd got probably the same ipod that you're still using now.
- [89:18]
B
I mean, I've had to replace it with like for like a few times.
- [89:21]
A
But nevertheless, you know, so podcasts becoming a thing. And it just seemed this. I think those conversations were concurrent. I mean, we were saying that there was just really intellectual podcasts and nothing in between, that we have had a little go.
- [89:40]
B
That's how it happened. It was a question over there, wasn't it? Yeah. This is sort of dim and distant future of the podcast.
- [89:47]
A
So you're doing French monarchs Coming up soon. But eventually, potentially that could lead to
- [89:51]
B
French consorts, at which point we're obviously back eventually to Eleanor of athlete. Yes.
- [89:56]
A
Oh, my God.
- [89:58]
B
How would you at the moment think
- [90:00]
A
about her as a French monarch or
- [90:02]
B
consort and does she get bonus points? Points for trying to instigate a revolt in England? That's a good point.
- [90:09]
A
Yeah.
- [90:10]
B
So one day we might do the French consorts. How might we rank Eleanor as a French consort and see the positives of the rebellion? Because she does ally with her ex husband, the King of France.
- [90:21]
A
She'd do well on scandal.
- [90:23]
B
She'd do well in scandal. She does go on the Crusade whilst Queen of France.
- [90:28]
A
No dynasty. Well, no.
- [90:30]
B
They had two daughters today. Yeah.
- [90:32]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah. You told me that an hour ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [90:38]
B
That would be interesting to do. Would be interesting to do.
- [90:41]
A
Yeah.
- [90:41]
B
Eleanor part two. And I don't think she do as well. I think we would be a bit stricter being like. Right. She is no longer the Queen of France at this point.
- [90:49]
A
You couldn't have, like. She wouldn't be. There's no Queen Mother points or anything on.
- [90:55]
B
No.
- [90:56]
A
Yeah.
- [90:56]
B
No. She's never. The Queen of the King of France. The Queen Mother of the King of France.
- [91:01]
A
So probably big scandal, not much else.
- [91:04]
B
Yeah. She didn't get to be very influential. I don't think as Queen, she was sort of struggling against the old vested interests and she wanted out. That's why she came. Came here instead. But interesting. It'll be interesting if we do and we get to do her again. Okay. Any other questions? Or you now just want to. Ah, right. It's got two more. Yes.
- [91:25]
A
Obviously, Retrofast is all about, like, the
- [91:27]
B
personalities and the people. What's your favorite period of history?
- [91:31]
A
Where would you like to have lived?
- [91:32]
B
Our favourite period to have lived. I always think whenever we get asked those sorts of questions, let's assume that we just go into it with all of the disease jabs having been had.
- [91:44]
A
Yeah. Okay.
- [91:45]
B
And we're probably not going to get our heads cut off for some reason. We've got the charm not to avoid it. What period do you want to go and live in?
- [91:55]
A
I'm getting quite fun. So on Market Square around here, I was saying to you earlier, I said
- [92:02]
B
literally on the way in.
- [92:03]
A
Yeah. I just feel like I'm in some. Tell me the period.
- [92:09]
B
Well, you said Regency, which is why I was 1790s. Quite specific about where you wanted to be.
- [92:21]
A
It's just because I've read that dreadful Follet that was Set about that time of the Luddites and stuff, then. Sounds quite fun, but, you know, because I fancy the outfits, really. They are good outfits.
- [92:34]
B
Yeah.
- [92:35]
A
And there's the sea stuff going on.
- [92:38]
B
There are big boats.
- [92:39]
A
Big boats. But that's getting really interesting. I mean, I wouldn't turn my nose up at a Tudor hose. You know, a pair of tights, that would be quite fun. But, yeah. No, Regent, not the one before.
- [92:54]
B
10 years before. Once we get past the 90s, we're like, no, no.
- [92:58]
A
That's pretty much my life, actually.
- [93:02]
B
It's got to be the Tudors. Got to be the Tudors. It's just. Yeah. The color. You've got a bit of medieval still there, the feel to it, but you're getting towards the things being a bit more plush.
- [93:13]
A
I. Well, I like the idea that those. The same buildings that we're living in now, like, literally the ones we're staying in, are the ones. Those. That era. And they're nice and it. Step outside. I imagine if Ludlow had a theme night and everyone had to dress like they were of the period, that it's. Oh, I'd love it. It all looks so fancy.
- [93:35]
B
No, that was fine. Where was the.
- [93:36]
A
There's one. There's. There was some right at the back.
- [93:38]
B
There was. There was someone here first that I think I'd seen, so. And I've noticed one there. And you noticed one there.
- [93:46]
A
Yeah.
- [93:47]
B
And in there, there's a stained glass window with a tribute to.
- [93:55]
A
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. That I haven't gone there enough. And a massive, great cannon. Roaring Meg or whatever it is. Yeah. Awesome. I mean that.
- [94:07]
B
Yeah.
- [94:08]
A
There is where I shall have. I'll have my thoughts and everything will come to me. Yes.
- [94:16]
B
Because research, like, opportunities for the consorts are quite limited.
- [94:21]
A
Are there any that you thought if
- [94:22]
B
you had, like, just a good book on them, they could have won the rex factor? Because that needed information. Yeah. So for the consorts, if there were anywhere we just had a bit more information, a book with a bit more detail, might they have been elevated to the rex factor? Yeah, there definitely would have been some. I feel like that even though there are books on them, but like Eleanor of Provence. Eleanor of Castile were two that I felt like a bit more detail and information I'd have liked. And in fact, with Ellen of Castile, I felt like I got the. Because I did limit myself to just one book and I think I got the wrong one. I got one which is a little bit more academic and household account sort of stuff, which is a bit Less fun. And then there was another one which was a bit more recent and a bit more just fun biography stuff that they did. And Elle of Provence as well. She did amazing stuff. So that's the mother of Edward I and the wife of Edward I. Just to put it in some kind of context you can understand. Yeah. I felt like those two were both.
- [95:24]
A
I mean, that was fine.
- [95:27]
B
I felt both of those two were both kind of quite impressive in certain ways. Both got a lot of color going on and you could see where they might be rexy, but it was just a little bit of information lacking. So those sorts of ones, I think just a little bit more definitely could elevate them.
- [95:43]
A
It's a picture help so much. As soon as it started to get proper portraits. Yeah, you could really put a character
- [95:49]
B
to it because it helps a lot. The bit of personality that you can get can really elevate them. Feeling rexy? Yeah, definitely. So you saw one up there? I saw one over there. So
- [96:01]
A
go Ru. What was your favorite monarch from season one to season three? G man.
- [96:14]
B
So you don't feel that there's anyone that stands out for you as being particularly.
- [96:20]
A
I went in fighting for Edward. I. Absolutely. And he still is my sort of favorite. He's the medieval ideal to me.
- [96:28]
B
Knocked out by Alfred in the playoffs, but. Yeah, you know.
- [96:30]
A
Was he.
- [96:31]
B
Yeah.
- [96:32]
A
Oh, that's foul play. You're old Southern. But I really liked some of the personalities that appeared in the console series. So Isabella of France. It's a good one. Is that right? Isabella?
- [96:48]
B
Yep, Yep.
- [96:48]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And then I just got the pineapple. You know, the ones where they were so.
- [96:56]
B
William.
- [96:57]
A
Thank you. They earned nicknames. I really liked that. What about you? I mean, are you going to stick with Henry VIII for this?
- [97:07]
B
Well, I mean, he's still as a period. Henry viii, I think, is the one that I find really interesting. Just the whole court and everything that's going on. It is interesting. You hear a lot about it, but that's because there's a lot that happens and it is interesting. But as I said, I do really like the Saxons. I did enjoy Alfred Athelstan. I enjoy that period.
- [97:24]
A
Edgar, the Atheling. I enjoyed that special episode. Yeah. Yeah. I think William iv. And we can read his book. Not his book, a book about him.
- [97:35]
B
And I saw some of the. Yes.
- [97:37]
A
Of all the rankings and votes for the consoles, was there any that particularly surprised you?
- [97:44]
B
Oh, so were there any surprises for us in the. Do you mean in terms of articles or in the playoffs? Sorry, Is that You're thinking either. Either. At some point, were we surprised by some form of ranking for the consoles?
- [97:58]
A
There was, wasn't there?
- [97:59]
B
Recently? We did a playoffs recently. Yes, we did. We did.
- [98:02]
A
Anne Boleyn.
- [98:04]
B
I don't know if I was surprised because I'd sequence from people, so I was sort of. Even though I felt that she should be ranked high and I was putting her higher, oh, there was a big backlash. I knew that there were elements that really didn't like her. So I wasn't surprised that she didn't do better just because I think we'd already seen that that was coming. But I think if you look at it externally, you say, wow, how did Anne Boleyn not get to the final? I was surprised by how comprehensively some of the consorts won their playoff groups. So, like, we had a group with Emma of Normandy, who you put in fourth, but nevertheless, she won her group with over 50%, and she was against Margaret of Anjou, Catherine Parr, Prince Albert, Matilda of Scotland. So to get a majority of the vote in a group like that, that's powerful. Yeah. Some of those are pretty impressive. And yet, as I say, I can't remember who she was.
- [98:56]
A
So that was taking my vote into account as well.
- [98:58]
B
No. So the public vote, she came top, and my vote, she came top. But you ranked her so low that she didn't ultimately win that group. Yes. I think I saw a handout.
- [99:14]
A
Who would you most like to have at a different.
- [99:17]
B
Who would we most like to have at a dinner party out of any of the three series or in all of them?
- [99:24]
A
William the Fourth again, I guess.
- [99:25]
B
Pineapple Head.
- [99:26]
A
Pineapple head.
- [99:27]
B
You just get a drink from him.
- [99:31]
A
Yeah. Who would be good? Who is the One of the more. Ah, Carolina Van's bat. I mean, that.
- [99:40]
B
Yep. That's quite far.
- [99:41]
A
Yeah.
- [99:41]
B
Oh, do you mean sensible one or the crazy one?
- [99:44]
A
No, sensible one.
- [99:45]
B
Sensible, yeah. Carolina Rands back. Yeah.
- [99:47]
A
Yeah.
- [99:51]
B
Charles ii. You gotta have Charles there. He'd be fun.
- [99:54]
A
Yeah. But I think I took the question a bit too literally. Like, he would be fun, but for a very, very short period of time, and it would destroy the house. Whereas I think Caroline Ransbach, you know, she'd have her over.
- [100:10]
B
He's always a bit more under control, though. He's like. He's the sort that there's a raucous party going on, but. But he's actually not drunk.
- [100:16]
A
Oh, really?
- [100:17]
B
I think he's that sort. I think he's actually always in control
- [100:19]
A
and he's on his own he's on his own.
- [100:22]
B
No one else can come. It's just you.
- [100:25]
A
This is something a lot more intimate than a dinner party. Can Graham be there as well? Sort of legitimizes it.
- [100:32]
B
Yeah. I think Charles II would be a fun one. I mean, Caroline would be. Caroline would be. I mean, Caroline of Brunswick would also be quite an entertaining but different sort of way. Get George and Caroline together. Maybe not.
- [100:48]
A
Maybe not. There was one over here. Oh, sorry.
- [100:53]
B
One at the back and then one at the front. Ah. Why do we not vote in the final, in the playoffs? Or indeed this, I suppose.
- [101:04]
A
Democracy.
- [101:05]
B
Democracy, yes. Because it seems. I mean, we could in a way, like if just adding one more vote to the tally sort of doesn't really matter. In a sense. Yeah, I sort of. It might be weird, but I feel like if I vote, I sort of compromising my supposed neutrality in some way. I feel like when it gets to the final, I just stand above it and if I've not voted, I'm not too invested in what the result is. I feel I can just accept this is the public voting and I will just report on it. Whereas if I voted, I feel like it might be like, ah, that's not what I wanted.
- [101:40]
A
We've given you the tools to make the right decision. Now vote for Eleanor.
- [101:46]
B
But, yeah, we could have voted individually, but I. I don't know if you. Did you vote? I think it does. No, probably not. I think you maybe intended to, but then that would have required.
- [101:55]
A
Oh, like, actually, did I vote online? Yeah, yeah, you did. Yeah, I did. There you go.
- [102:01]
B
You had to find the link for that and everything. Yes.
- [102:08]
A
Looking ahead to the French series, I'm interested to know, before starting any research, how well you feel like you know them now and if there's any you think might be a favourite that you have a favourite already at all.
- [102:24]
B
So the question is, looking ahead to the French monarchs, are there any that I feel I know well and think might be contenders for the series? I feel like. I don't know, I sort of know it just through the English story, so I don't know lots of them, so I'm sure there'll be a lot of surprises. I think Philip Augustus, that we've chatted about a bit today, I think is one that I would expect to be possibly getting the Rex factor, because he's very effective at really just getting the Angevin empire back and making that France. So I think he'd be an interesting one. I think in terms of the big. It depends where we start. And where we finish to an extent. But it feels like Charlemagne and Louis XIV are the two big ones. I guess then it depends if we include republican emperors or not.
- [103:10]
A
That's a big ask, isn't it?
- [103:12]
B
That is quite a big ask. I'm sort of reluctant to commit to doing Napoleon just because he's such a biggie. But if we did, I guess he'd be in the conversation. He was quite powerful.
- [103:23]
A
We've got to do him separately, I think. Otherwise he wipes the floor, doesn't he?
- [103:29]
B
But yeah, those are the ones I feel I know quite well. I can't remember which one is. Is Louis XI or Louis xii. Louis the Pious. He was a very effective one as well, I think.
- [103:37]
A
The glass fella.
- [103:38]
B
I don't think he's a very rexy one. Notable but Chelsea 6.
- [103:42]
A
I'm just talking about French King.
- [103:46]
B
But yeah, those are the ones I feel I know a bit about at the moment. But definitely I'm hoping they're going to be some that I wouldn't have thought about at all. That will surprise me. Henri ii. That's an Alcatra.
- [103:55]
A
The wrestler.
- [103:57]
B
No, that's Francis.
- [103:59]
A
Francis. Okay.
- [104:00]
B
See we know loads about the French monarchy. You just started now, I think it was. Yes.
- [104:05]
A
So having looked at the three seasons, are there any history what ifs that you should think about when you have another research?
- [104:15]
B
So are there any big history what ifs that we think about? Well, that's very appropriate for the next series where we are doing the people who could or should have been monarch but didn't. So they're definitely going to be some in that series. So there's one, the son of James vi, first of England, Prince Henry, who is like this tall, athletic, very militant 18 year old and everybody really loved him and he was going to be this great, great king and then he dies after having a swim in the river. So instead it's Charles the first that becomes king who is not quite as successful or popular. Wow, that feels big. What was his name? Henry. So he would have been Henry the Ninth.
- [104:53]
A
Oh man. Wow. Yeah, you reel me in with these films. I was waiting for the rest of the story. Well, that's it, isn't he? He's dead.
- [105:03]
B
Yes, he's dead. Yeah. No more.
- [105:05]
A
They all end the same way, these things, don't they?
- [105:07]
B
From with the one. So you never find out what would have happened.
- [105:09]
A
Darn it. Darn it.
- [105:10]
B
Yeah, he's. That's definitely one from this coming series. I think it's quite a big interesting one. Because some of them, it's just like they could have become king, but it's quite hard to imagine what they would have been like. Whereas him, you think he's such a different character to Charles.
- [105:22]
A
Yeah.
- [105:23]
B
That would have been a real what if Richard had just let the princes continue as they were and we'd have had no Tudors?
- [105:32]
A
That's it. It's not a what if, but I just. I'm desperate to get to the bottom of that. Yeah. Test those ruddy skeletons. Get your swabs out.
- [105:42]
B
Any other questions? Yes.
- [105:45]
A
What's been the funniest episode for you to listen to?
- [105:49]
B
Ali? What's been the funniest episode for you to listen to Ali, presumably at the time rather than subsequently? Because obviously you don't listen subsequently.
- [105:58]
A
I have absolutely no idea.
- [105:59]
B
You'd have to remember it.
- [106:02]
A
I have absolutely no idea. I mean, Charles ii, there's a lot of fun anecdotes. There's a lot of fun in there. There's a lot of fun. I like it when you make me incredulous. I like that. So I don't know. It's got to be Charles ii, really. Surely, surely, surely.
- [106:24]
B
Now, I think we're probably a bit over time, so I don't know if we've got one more question or two. Just go straight to the results if not.
- [106:32]
A
No. All right.
- [106:34]
B
Right, so we have got the results. I can reveal there additional ones. In fact, I'd suggest that they enhance the result. So we were potentially doing the ranked choice voting, but we haven't required the recounting, which I imagine my parents are probably quite relieved about. We've not done the ranked choice thing for the second and third. I'll have a look later if we still got them. Voting slip, so I can see if that would be changed.
- [106:58]
A
I thought you were swiping your thing like it was an iPad then.
- [107:02]
B
So in third place, we have Robert the Bruce.
- [107:06]
A
Okay. So it really is. It really is down to those.
- [107:11]
B
So between Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine, I can reveal that the ultimate Rex Factor champion is. Thank you, Eleanor.
- [107:32]
A
Excellent.
- [107:41]
B
And that's a big noise with lots of caps and cheers because I think with the extra votes, it went up to about somewhere between 65, 68 of people voting for Eleanor. So it was quite a big win for Eleanor.
- [107:52]
A
Wow.
- [107:53]
B
She's the ultimate Rex Factor champion.
- [107:54]
A
Bloody mar. Sorry. Marvellous.
- [107:57]
B
It's like last time we're here, you had one of your.
- [108:00]
A
No. Yes.
- [108:00]
B
Your life. You weren't full of morphine this time, though. Yeah, well, that is it for us today. So thank you so much everybody for coming along for the questions for the voting.
- [108:13]
A
Yes. And do stay behind so you can say hello. We've got our whole gang of us in. You'll see my dad, he's me with an Instagram 40 year filter on exactly the same. You can't miss him.
- [108:27]
B
Yeah, yeah. So we'll just be outside. Happy to take any more questions and to say hello and all of that. But yes, thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for coming. And yes, that is the end of the show
- [108:39]
A
going. Should we take that?
- [108:50]
B
So that was the live show in Ludlow.
- [108:53]
A
I had a great time.
- [108:55]
B
We should say there's lots of people who came over, as we say in the main episode, but I also want to say there's a happy birthday that we do in the episode. There was going to be another happy birthday episode for Emma James, but sadly poor Emma was ill and thus was unable to attend the live show and to get her surprise happy birthday message. So, Emma, hope you're feeling better. At a belated happy birthday. Just as well. It's a very complicated name and
- [109:29]
A
that's a. That's a shame. That's grim, isn't it? Being in all on your birthday. Feels like life owes you a day off in lieu.
- [109:36]
B
Yeah. Now I promised you the full results. So as you heard, there were a few leftover votes in the front row that hadn't been picked up. So I did do a kind of a full recount just to try and get a particular number. So by my calculations, Elena ended up winning with 74% of the vote. I think it was 60 something.
- [109:57]
A
Oh my God. I mean that you'd start to get international teams in to check. That was a fair and just process at that point.
- [110:05]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's almost too big a victory at this point. Yeah. So we had Henry II in second place in terms of first choice votes with 23%. Robert the Bruce is third with 5%. I think that's just because of rounding numbers. Why that doesn't quite all add up. But given that Eleanor had such a huge majority, obviously the way that we do the right choice voting, we get the winner and then we reallocate.
- [110:34]
A
Yeah.
- [110:35]
B
Her vote. So obviously with 74% of the vote, frankly that what Henry II, Robert the Bruce had originally is almost irrelevant really. It's who did everybody else who voted for her put in second place. So will it be Team Plantagenet? And it was very much at the Henry and Eleanor show and Robert The Bruce got left behind. Or is this a chance for Eleanor fans to get their revenge on Henry for locking her up for 15 years?
- [110:58]
A
Oh, I see. Yes. That opens up, doesn't it? Yeah.
- [111:04]
B
Well, in the end, second place went to Henry II. Yeah. Pretty convincingly, too. 64% of the votes in total picked up 62% of Eleanor's second place votes. Yeah.
- [111:21]
A
I mean, what a power couple it is. Although I felt bad. Alan. Scottish Rex fan. Alan.
- [111:31]
B
Robert. Who's Robert?
- [111:34]
A
No, I met him. I met him queuing for a coffee the next day and I did have to admit to him that at the end when you're recapping and saying, not the sort of uniting Scotland for the first time as a nation. And at that point I thought, oh, bloody hell. Yeah, that is. That's pretty good, isn't it?
- [111:54]
B
There was an argument which I'd written down in my notes, but it's in the Rex factor bit, which I don't always read out. I've just kind of got it there if I feel like we need to do a little jump through them. Where to say that the difference of Robert the Bruce compared to Henry and Eleanor. Henry and Eleanor are almost like characters, I don't know, like out of the Iliad or something. They're almost just these sort of legendary figures that just walk in this greater stage that's pro. You imagine they're probably in some kind of contact with some form of God, you know, like it's that sort of period in history where. Whereas Robert the Bruce is actually a national hero.
- [112:28]
A
Yeah.
- [112:28]
B
In his achievements, like Henry 2nd Ellen Rakuten aren't really these great English heroes or anything like that. They're just these great figures in history. Robert the Bruce perhaps is much more of a series champ, like the Scottish champion.
- [112:41]
A
Yeah, he's. He's. That. Yeah, that's true. And actually, I think even amongst English people, people would know Robert the Bruce more than Henry II or Elena of
- [112:52]
B
Akutane, ironically,
- [112:56]
A
very much on Ronaldo, rather than the sort of Spanish European and then World cup champions.
- [113:02]
B
And particularly now, of course, as we obviously discussed in the episode, the fact that the recalculation of his Dynasty score obviously means that he is, you know, definitively superior to Edward the First, which was obviously the other.
- [113:15]
A
Oh, I mean, do you know, I'm not unhappy with that. I quite like. I quite like. I hate, actually. No, I don't like that at all. I really dislike that. I was thinking, I quite don't mind the Edwards in fourth because I always like a Sort of flawed genius to. To even not quite make the podium, but not. Not by Robert the Bruce. That's just too much of a kick in the nuts for him.
- [113:49]
B
Yeah. Because he's fifth now rather than fourth.
- [113:51]
A
What? He's not his fifth.
- [113:53]
B
He was Joy's fourth. Well, fourth now he's just fifth.
- [113:59]
A
Who.
- [114:00]
B
Who said Isabella as well?
- [114:05]
A
Okay, well, I'm just annoyed now.
- [114:06]
B
Yeah. That means, of course, thus he's supplanted by the man who defeated his son in battle and the woman who overthrew his son.
- [114:16]
A
Oh, my gosh. This is such a. This is such a soap drama, whatever they're called. This is brilliant. She is. Yeah, she actually. I don't mind that. I don't mind that at all. Oh, good.
- [114:38]
B
Anyway, so that is the full results from Ludlow. So Eleanor Rackletame is the winner. Henry II second. Robert the Bruce in third. It was a great time. We had a great time in Ludlow. So we say again, thank you so much to everybody who came to see us, and thank you very much to Jess and everyone at Ludlow Assembly Rooms for inviting us, basically letting us come and chat. History.
- [115:01]
A
Just so fun. Just felt like, well, I just like spending time with you. And it was a time away, you know, just. And having a chat and then lots of people saying, oh, that was nice. Thanks. It is, isn't it?
- [115:17]
B
It's just. It's just nice times.
- [115:18]
A
It's really nice.
- [115:21]
B
So that does also now feel like sort of definitively the end of series three. Now we have properly, properly done the console. I know. And I do actually have one more thing to do, but that will be a privy chamber bonus extra. Speaking of which, if you would like to hear more of us, you can join the Privy Council by going to patreon.com rexfactor you get an ad free version of the main podcast, as well as access to over 400 additional bonus podcasts.
- [115:48]
A
Totting up, isn't it?
- [115:50]
B
400. We are going to be doing other episodes in the meantime, we're going to have a messages and previews episode I think will be the next thing that preview. Yeah, well, we're going next week. We're going to be doing Rosetta.
- [116:07]
A
Oh, Lummy. You're right. That. Yeah. Okay, she's back.
- [116:12]
B
She's here. She's here. She's finally here. And other stuff. I'm gonna try and line up some more interview episodes and things like that. We might. Maybe we'll do some even more than previews of some of our bonus content. Maybe just to keep people ticking over whilst we are off season.
- [116:30]
A
Off season? Yeah. Football's back as is. Bloody only connect.
- [116:35]
B
So you don't need to worry about reps. You don't need anything.
- [116:39]
A
Exactly. Gladiators soon, surely.
- [116:43]
B
Anyway, thank you for listening and see you next time.
- [116:47]
A
Cheerio. Sa.