Ali (2:53)

Nice.

Graham Duke (2:54)

Do a whole bunch of stuff. So it will hopefully mean that when we start in the new year, it's going to be much more of a regular release. We're not going to have those big gaps that we had in the third series where we'd be off for months at a time. So that. So that's what we've been doing at the moment. But for today, we are setting ourselves up for that quite nicely, actually, because we are going right back to the start of the period that we have covered on the podcast and revisiting Athelstan. Now, Athelstan was the third king that we reviewed in our original series some 15 years ago.

Ali (3:29)

God almighty. We're gonna have listeners who weren't born when we started soon.

Graham Duke (3:33)

Yes, I think we probably already do. And despite him getting plaudits from us, Athelstan still remains something of an unknown for most people. However, the historian David Woodman has a new book out that makes the case for him being much better known and potentially for us, having been mistaken in starting with Alfred instead of starting with

Ali (3:52)

Athelstan, I feel vindicated.

Graham Duke (3:57)

So let's hear what David has to say about Athelstan. So we are very excited to be joined on the podcast today by the historian David Woodman. Thanks very much for joining us on the podcast.

David Woodman (4:08)

Great pleasure to be here. Thanks very much for having me.

Graham Duke (4:10)

So, first of all, would you mind just quickly introducing yourself to the listeners in terms of who you are and what you do?

David Woodman (4:16)

Of course, Graham. So my name is David Woodman, as you said. I'm professor of Medieval History at Robinson College in Cambridge, where I teach on a weekly basis, undergraduates and postgraduate students, and also where I conduct research. So doing things like writing about Athelstan and other wonderful pre conquest and post conquest matters as well.

Graham Duke (4:35)

Yeah. And we're going to be talking to you today about your recent book, the First King of England, Athelstan and the Birth of a Kingdom. Now, you're going to have a range of questions today. So there's questions from me, who has read the book, as we were just explaining to you before we started, Ali, who deliberately hasn't read the book or done pre research, so he can Come in fresh. But we've also got Ali, a little bit of a rival for you this week, because my son's primary school in year three, so ages seven to eight have just started studying the Anglo Saxons.

Ali (5:02)

You put me at key stage two, basically.

Graham Duke (5:06)

Yeah, well, we'll see the level of detail in the question. So his class has submitted a few questions as well that I'll weave in at various points. We did Athelstan originally, our first series, which is 15 years ago, so it's a long time since we've did him, and it might be that some people haven't even listened to that episode. So could you just give a very brief overview of who Athelstan was?

David Woodman (5:30)

Yeah, of course. So Athelstan, we think he was born around the early to mid-890s, so the late 9th century, and he lives all the way through to 939 when he dies. And he is the son of a king called Edward the Elder and his first wife, a lady called Edwin. And Edward, his father, would go on to marry two more times, so he ended up having multiple half brothers and half sisters. And he was also the grandson of probably the more famous Anglo Saxon king, Alfred the Great, so one of the of the most famous of all of the Anglo Saxon kings. And we can talk about the reasons why he's more famous than his grandson, if you'd like. But, yes, that's the basic biographical information that we know about Athelstan. Quite an interesting feature about Athelstan's reign is that he doesn't marry himself, so we don't know that he has any wife at any point or indeed any children. And that's quite notable for the early medieval period, where the issue of succession and who would follow you as king was very important, as you can imagine.

Graham Duke (6:25)

Yeah. Because the last series that we did, our third series, was on the Consorts of England, so obviously there wasn't an Athelstan episode. Like you said, you maybe get a lot of boy kings and stuff that don't always get old enough to marry, but actually, for a full adult man not to marry at any point really is a very strange situation.

David Woodman (6:44)

Very striking. Yeah. There've been a number of theories about why that might be. I mean, I guess one, this is plunging into detail straight away, but one possibility is that because he had so many half brothers and possible claimants to the throne, that actually it was too complicated already and that there was a decision taken that, you know, he shouldn't add to the mix. But who knows, really? Who knows, basically?

Ali (7:03)

Well, who came next then?

David Woodman (7:05)

So his half brother, a person called Edmund, came next as king in 99,

Ali (7:09)

but that was arranged because it was

David Woodman (7:10)

going to be him, as far as we can know. So one of the tricky things about doing late 9th, early 10th century is just how much detail about arrangements of that kind that you get. And one of the things we can talk about is the circumstances in which Athelstan himself becomes king. There's a degree of hostility, hostility to him. Looks like he has a bit of a fight to get on the throne in the first place. And there's none of that detail about the succession of Edmund, which makes it look as if the royal assembly, all of the chief counselors, the ecclesiastical, the very people in high office, had agreed to the fact that Edmund would succeed Athelstan. So as far as I can tell, but with Athelstan exceeding in 924, that was a very different matter. There was lots of contention about that and lots of complexity.

Ali (7:50)

Was that Graham, he'll know what I'm talking about. That big battle with Dunstan, is that that one?

David Woodman (7:56)

No, no, a bit different. So this is a bit earlier. So 924, aethelstan first becomes king and there's a lot of hostility to him. He's been brought up away from the Royal House of Wessex, which was the house into which he was born. He's brought up in Mercia, at the court of his aunt, someone called the lady of the Mercian, Zethelflaad, who's a really interesting person in her own right, and her husband, a man called Aethelred, the Lord of the Mercians. So he's brought him away from the center of politics. And I think partly because of that upbringing, there's a degree of hostility towards him when he first becomes king. And actually some evidence from Winchester, the centre of the House of Wessex, that somebody else is another half brother, a man called the rather wonderfully named Elfwayard. Then he becomes king in Wessex. And maybe there'd been a period of divided rule between the two that Elfwayard is king in Wessex and Athelstan, at the very beginning, is thought of as king in Mercia in the Midlands. His half brother dies only a couple of weeks later. So in a way it becomes a moot point. And again, we know nothing about the circumstances in which his half brother died. So but at that point, Athelstan becomes the sole king.

Graham Duke (9:03)

So straight away, straight away, you're getting a bit suspicious.

Ali (9:05)

He's a murderer.

Graham Duke (9:06)

That's kind of of interest for Our next series we're going to be doing nearly monarchs, so the ones that could or should have become monarchs.

David Woodman (9:14)

Oh, really interesting.

Graham Duke (9:14)

So it's sort of interesting his older or he's younger than him, but not the youngest ones. Half brothers that he has, Elfried, say, and Edwin, and whether you know what's going on there, because it seems like you said Edmund and then Ed dread that follows. It seems like he maybe kind of brings them up. It seems to be quite a good relationship. But it feels like the other two that it's not quite so harmonious.

David Woodman (9:37)

Yeah, that's right, yeah. Yes. There are allusions to plots to have Athelstan killed, even actually at the beginning of his reign, again from Winchester. So there's a historian called William of Malmsby who's writing in the early 12th century, who gives us the most detailed narrative account that we have of. Of Athelstan's life and his reign. And a major question for historians is, you know, how much do we trust this stuff? You know, looking back from the early 12th century into the early 10th century, you know, can we believe what he's saying? But he talks about an assassin called Alfred who goes, you know, tries to have Athelstan blinded and thus neutralized politically. So that's very interesting. And then. And then, just as you say, Graham, the other half brother, a man called Edwin, he dies in 933 in circumstances that are really mysterious. So contemporary texts talk about the fact that he drowned, drowned at sea. And again, by the early 12th century, authors are beginning to level a degree of blame at Athelstan, that maybe he'd been responsible for casting this guy out to sea and having him drowned outright. So it's possible that he was getting rid of potential competitors, I guess, for the kingship.

Graham Duke (10:42)

It's interesting with Athelstan because I sort of often approach his story and the others with a certain kind of pro Saxon, that direct line bias. But actually, when you see, like the interactions with the Scots and the Vikings and the Welsh and other people, and then you throw in his half brothers and you think, is there a bit of a mafia element kind of going on? Is that sort of the vibe is actually a bit of a darker character than maybe we might assume. Or is it just that it's dog eat dog and you've got to act first?

David Woodman (11:10)

Yeah, I think power, cunning. I think we really have to talk about a ruler who was ruthless, you know, someone who had, you know, huge ambitions. I mean, what he managed to achieve from becoming king in this sort of marginalized way in 924. And then three years later, he creates England for the. Well, the kingdom of the English for the first time in 927. You know, it's somebody who has extraordinary ambition and I guess, political vision for what could be achieved, but also must have been. It must have been underpinned by a degree of ruthlessness and hostility, military accomplishments. You know, we need to think about rulers who are constantly having to defend themselves in military terms, not just from Vikings, but also from, I guess, internal threats as well, from. From people in neighboring kingdoms, from people within his own kingdom, as we've just described. So. So very different time to, you know, to the one that we live in for sure.

Graham Duke (11:59)

Actually, that moves on. On quite nicely, actually, because the bit that we haven't talked about in the book title is First King of England, alluding to there with nine to seven. Because when we did our first series, we started with Alpha T the Great. And we also had our little Heritage Limited playing cards that you can get in English Heritage shops that have got lovely little cartoon drawings of all the kings. And they start with Alfred. But you've got Athelstan as first king of England. So why is he the first rather than like Alfred earlier or even, I don't know, like Edgar later or something like that? Why have you gone, Athelstan, first king of England?

David Woodman (12:32)

Yeah, absolutely. So if we're thinking about the late 9th and early 10th century, which is when Alfred and then his son Edward and then, of course, Athelstan first reign, and we have a number of independent, formerly independent kingdoms that are in existence then. Places like Wessex, Mercia, East Anglia and Northumbria. Now, in the reign of King Alfred, one of the things that we see emerging is he had been king of Wessex of the West Saxons. But he begins to realize that in order to be successful against the external threat of Vikings, he needs to create a party that's a bit larger. In other words, they need to come together internally within the Anglo Saxon kingdoms in order to fight this external threat. And what Alfred does, and it's ingenious, is he brings together Wessex and Mercia for the first time, and he creates a kingdom that's called the Kingdom of the Anglo Saxons. So it's a kingdom, a place that incorporates, as I say, both Wessex and Mercia. And his son Edward takes that forward a bit more. He sort of consolidates this kingdom of the Anglo Saxons, incorporates parts of the. Of the East Midlands and of East Anglia by the time of his death. But neither of them have managed to incorporate Northumbria at all. And so Northumbria is ruled in a myriad of ways. Probably at this moment in the early 10th century, we have a Viking leader called Sitrich who's in control in York, and we have a series of earls of Bamburgh who are in control further north in Northumbria. And so in 97, that's the moment that Athelstan for the first time, brings Northumbria within west Saxon control. It's the first time. And that's the birth of, of, of, of what we will think of as, as England in 927. It's the moment that Citrich dies the king, the Viking king, in Northumbria. And it gives Athelstan the opportunity to add Northumbria to his dominion.

Ali (14:17)

So, like, I suppose this is that question you're opposing to start about who, why Alfred, then if that. Is it because you. Then if there's a first, My theory is, if you've got a first in, in Athelstan, you need that creation myth of Alfred the Great to sort of legitimize yourself.

David Woodman (14:37)

Yes. I mean, I think, I think partly what's going on here as well is to do with the writing of contemporary history, the way that these kings are written up by people at their court. So who gets a good sort of pr, if you like, you know, who gets a good sort of write up about that type of kingship? And, and Alfred was super lucky. So he had a Welsh cleric, a man called Assa, who was writing a biography of him in the late 9th century at his court, and he writes this glowing appraisal of everything that Alfred manages to do, and rightly so. I mean, it's an extraordinary, extraordinary reign in its own right. But he's not the person who creates England in the first place. As I say, that's definitely his grandson, St. Athelstan. But I think what happens is that after this biography is published in the late 9th century, and then later, when history is written again in the late 11th and early 12th centuries, that's the, that's the thing that people go to and that's the source that dictates that Alfred is thought of as this extraordinary king. And poor old Athelstan, you know, despite these incredible accomplishments, he just doesn't have a contemporary biographer, or at least none that survived to this day. So we just don't have the same kind of detail about his reign.

Graham Duke (15:40)

How hard does that make it for you as a biographer of him? The fact that Alfred, as you said, has got somebody that did the job and it's all there for you. But Athelstan, there's sort of a gap. Does that, does that give you more possibility to sort of piece things together, or is it just frustrating like, oh, just find this extra source that just lays it all out nicely with a timeline?

David Woodman (15:57)

Yeah, I think it's a bit of both, actually, Graham. I think, you know, there is a. There is a frustration there that sometimes, you know, you can. You can learn so much about the reign of one person, but actually you can feel a bit frustrated about the kind of everyday detail you'd want to know. You know, what did he like to eat? What kind of person was he? We just don't have that kind of information about Athelstan. So, yes, there's a degree of frustration, but it also makes it a fascinating puzz. You know, you have to look at narrative sources where we have them. You have to look at contemporary royal documents, so law codes and things called royal diplomas, which are grants of land. You have to look at archaeological evidence of coinage that survived, precious silks, whatever it is that survived. You need to use all of this material and bring it together to try and paint a very full picture of Athelstan the man and Athelstan as king, basically.

Graham Duke (16:44)

Now you're saying about Sitrich and how he takes. Athelstan takes over Northumbria, and I think quite useful to get a sense of the. I was going to say the state of the nation. I suppose it's state of the nations, really, and the context that he's becoming king. But I'll start off with a few questions from my son's school about the Vikings in particular. Again, apologies, Ali, if I'm stepping in your toes with any questions that you're planning to ask. So a few Viking questions. First of all, did Vikings use horns on their helmets for extra weaponry, or is this just a myth?

David Woodman (17:14)

I'm afraid not. Yes, I think. I think we can consign that to the myth basket. It's very much a construct of the sort of 19th century century image of popular imagination of Vikings, to my knowledge. I don't think there's been any sort of archaeological finds that would uncover a helmet with horns, which would have just been too much complexity and unnecessary. So, yes, I think that's very much amid.

Graham Duke (17:37)

How did the Vikings travel to different countries ready to battle without the large planes and ships we have nowadays?

David Woodman (17:44)

Oh, well, that's a really interesting question. Navigation and travel are the things that fascinate me in the early medieval people period. And actually, if we think about the British Isles and Northwest Europe and in fact, Scandinavia more generally. And these places were much more interconnected than we might think. And many early settlements in Anglo Saxon England are deliberately pointed on the coast or major rivers to facilitate, I guess, sea travel. So the basic answer there is ships. And so Vikings. There's been a number of famous excavations that have uncovered Viking ships of various different sizes, which gives us a very good sense of the, of the kind of vessels that they would have used to cross the, to cross the North Sea and to cross the channel to arrive in the British Isles. I'm absolutely not an expert on how they navigated specifically. In other words, you know, I guess they were using the stars, I guess they were using the sun, the sky, in various ways, passing on knowledge about what they find between different generations of people who are making the voyages of as well.

Graham Duke (18:43)

And then a final Viking question. But I think actually this sets up, sets us up nicely in terms of the context, because obviously when Alfred's king, he's dealing with kind of Viking raiders and invasions and attacks, whereas it's a different setup really for Athelstan when he comes to the throne. So the question we heard that Anglo Saxons lived peacefully in some areas with Viking invaders. Is this true? And how come in other areas they just battle all the time?

David Woodman (19:09)

Yeah, again, a really good question. Yes, is the answer. They definitely coexisted in various ways. So I think broadly the way to think about it is from the 860s, 870s, we get a wave of Viking raids that are coming into to the British Isles. And from the, the early 870s, mid-870s, Vikings are beginning to settle in the east Midlands, in the east of the country, but also in the north. So in the north and east, we get this whole swathe of the country that, that by the early 11th century is known as the Dane law. In other words, a place where there's been a degree of Scandinavian settlement and influence in various ways. And yes, they must have coexisted with the native population. And we can see that in various ways. The artwork of the area is mixed between Anglo Saxon and Viking forms. We see Vikings founding churches, so they come across the pagan belief systems, but they then go on to found churches, which is, which is fascinating. So Vikings take on the trappings of the Anglo Saxon kingdom and there must have been influence in either direction. And in terms of what dictated when they rose up and became hostile, I think it's a mix of factors. It's probably personal gain. That's a massive factor. Not so Much place, not so much where they were settled, but if they saw an opportunity to advance themselves socially. I mean, again, if we're thinking about the late 9th, early 10 century, it must have been a very difficult time to simply to survive. And so any opportunity to advance oneself, that's probably what was taken, I think.

Graham Duke (20:35)

So Athelstan's then dealing with, not people coming in on the ships and raiding the coast, but he's got actual settled Vikings in Northumbria, but also, I think, like Ireland, there's a strong presence as well.

David Woodman (20:48)

Yeah, really good point. So it's a mixture. So he has. He has a Scandinavian population that has settled in the Northumbrian, the east, that he has to deal with people like Sitrich and his followers in, in York. But there are also Viking raids arriving at different points. And, and you mentioned Ireland. There's a Viking stronghold at. At Dublin, famously. There are descendants of. Of a Viking called Ivar the Boneless.

Ali (21:09)

Wonderful.

David Woodman (21:10)

And. And his, you know, his members of his family, they're based in Dublin and they periodically assert themselves in York. So they, they cross the Irish Sea, they land on the northwest coast and then they travel across the Pennines to. Towards. Towards York. So. So Athelstan would have been very aware of the threat, the Viking threat to the west, to the north and, and to the east. So he had an awful lot on his plate. And I imagine another reason why he tried to form England and spread his authority northwards was exactly that. That it was the best way of securing his. His, his borders and his position.

Graham Duke (21:40)

So in 927, he takes Northumbria, kicks or kicks the Viking leaders out. Presumably they're still sort of Scandinavian people there. And then we've got a Mont Bridge where he has this extraordinary meeting of all these different peoples that basically say, your boss.

David Woodman (21:58)

Yeah, absolutely. So. So, yeah, Sitrich dies in 97. Ethelstan marches north. As far as we know, he. We think he burnt York to the ground. That's. That's the. That's what William of Arms tells us in the early 12th century. So he takes it by a military campaign and then he goes back further north to this place, just as you say, Graham, called Eamon Bridge in the northwest, in modern Cumbria, just a mile south of Penrith. And a meeting is convened there of contemporary rulers, so kings of the Welsh, a king of a place called Alba, which is a sort of precursor to Scotland, probably a king of a northwestern kingdom known as Strathclyde and Cumbria, and a Northumbrian ruler. And they all agree to recognise Aethelstan as a sort of premier king. And it's an extraordinary moment. If you go to Amont Bridge today, it's. There's a number of ancient sites of significance. So there. There's a Roman fort called Brakarvam, There's a. A henge called Mabra Henge, and another henge called King Arthur's Round Table. And so it's a landscape of significance. So it looks like Athelstan is sending a statement here of political authority that he's the. He's the. He's the main guy, basically. He's trying to borrow from this landscape. And it looks like Amon Bridge is all also on the border between the previous kingdoms of Northumbria and Strathclyde, which is a symbolically important place as well. In other words, he's indicating. Look how far my authority travels. It's right to this northwestern limit within the British Isles. So an amazing occasion, and in fact, so important was it that he had a poet with him there that day who we think was of continental origin. And he asks this poet to draft some verses to commemorate the occasion. And we get this wonderful sequence of stanzas written by the poet, sent back to Winchester to announce what he's done. And he talks about ista perfecta Saxonia in Latin, that Saxon land made whole for the first time. So there's a recognition that what Athelstan's done is something quite remarkable at this moment in 927. And it's quite right. It's the birth of England, basically.

Ali (23:59)

Why is it not 927 instead of 1066? That's infuriating.

David Woodman (24:05)

It is. It's absolutely. It's absolutely. Yeah, I. I would use the word. I agree. I mean, you know, 1066 is. Is, I guess, when we were. When we were conquered. And it's, It's. It's amazing that the popular. You know, our popular consciousness, our collective understanding of the beginnings of things really starts from that point. And actually it should go much earlier, to 90. I mean, this is such an interesting period of formation of policies in the first place, coming together of different peoples, the way that they're interacting. You know, the British Isles would have been populated by lots of different people who were speaking different languages. Old English, Old Norse, Old Irish, Pictish, Old Welsh. You know, it's an. It's an extraordinarily interesting story, and Athelstan is sort of cutting through it and creating the kingdom of English for the first time. And I guess one. One really interesting feature about all this as well, is, you know, not everybody, of course, would have bought into this idea. He's. He's conquered. He's conquered Northumbria. Militarily, he's brought it within his dominion. But we can't expect that overnight people would have just said, oh, yes, now we have England. You know, there was a long way to go. So he may have been the sort of the architect of all this, the founder of England and the country as we, you know, as we eventually know it. But it's really complicated, and actually it would have taken many, many years and many generations for people to buy into this properly.

Graham Duke (25:20)

I really like, though, the fact that. Because it's. Sometimes you wonder whether we sort of always look back and saying, right, this period is when this started. Right, this is when the early modern period started, and this is when this thing happened at the time. They're not imagining that. But I like the fact that you're saying that he very much does have a sense of, no, this is completing a journey and a vision. I have created England. That is what I'm doing here. It's not just another bit of territory, is actually something bigger and more symbolic than that.

David Woodman (25:45)

Yeah, and it's very real as well. It's, you know, so I talked about the poem. But we also have a whole sequence of royal documents that survive, two of which, amazingly, in their original form, known as royal diplomas. And these are in their original state. These are grants of land, grants of different bits of privilege from the king to different individuals or institutions. And after 927 happens, the Royal style of Athelstan changes. So he goes from being the king of the Anglo Saxons to the king of the English for the first time. So the Rex Anglorum in Latin. So it's real recognition in contemporary terms of the more elevated nature of his authority. And likewise on his coinage. Coins begin to talk of him as the Rex Anglorum. They make even bolder claims at various points that he's the Rex Totius Britanniae, the king of all Britain. And that's an extraordinary claim as well. So this is a real achievement on Applestan's part. It's marked in contemporary royal documentation and royal coinage. And if we think about, you know, we can see that he brought together huge political assemblies of different important dignitaries of the time. They would have been receiving this information and recognizing him as the new. The new Rex Angloran. It's an amazing thing.

Ali (26:55)

Also, I feel a bit vindicated because people on this who listen to this podcast give me grief around not thinking. Edgar the Peaceable was. It was all that. Hang on, I better check something. This was before Edgar the Peaceable.

David Woodman (27:10)

Yes, yes.

Ali (27:11)

Okay. Because then that whole thing of Edgar the Peaceful getting rowed up the Thames or whatever, but in a boat, it's already been done. It's more Athelstan. More power to Athelstan.

David Woodman (27:23)

Well, I'm with you. There is a sort of argument in. In modern historiography about, you know, who's the first proper king of. Of the English, if you like. And. And Edgar wins some people's votes because he sort of cements it in different ways and he manages to implement administrative structures in ways that Athelstan doesn't quite, quite manage. But for me, you know, the founder of all of this is Athelstan, and Edgar sort of cements it later in the 10th century.

Ali (27:49)

God, that's the last thing Athelstan's legend needs. It's already being nicked from Arthur. Arthur. I always do that. What's his name? Alfred, that end, and then Edgar, the other side. Yeah, I can see.

David Woodman (28:03)

But I think there's a bit of a renaissance about Athelstan, you know, in early September, just recently, the 1100th anniversary of his coronation when he first becomes king in 95. And, you know, that was an amazing event. We had it in Kingston. Hundreds of people came to Kingston. There was a train dedicated in his honor, Naftrim, which is now on the Southwest Network, doing its round, mainly that people can see Athelstan. And we've got an opportunity to put Athelstan in 97 on the map, you know, much more widely with the 1100th anniversary of the birth of England in, you know, in July seven, just in a couple of years time.

Ali (28:40)

Good point.

David Woodman (28:41)

There's a, you know, there's a. There's a chance here for a campaign of, you know, and I know that people are talking about this, you know, how do we commemorate this properly? Is it with stamps? Is it with coins? Very popular option is, you know, getting a bank holiday in his name to commemorate that incredible occasion at amon Bridge on the 12th of July. So I think. I think he is going to get his due. I really hope so. And I, I, you know, I think, think more and more people are going to know about Athelstan and, and. And rightly so. Yeah.

Ali (29:08)

Oh, we've got to do something for that. That would be brilliant. We'll join in on any events that are planned. Right. I mean, I want to go on that train.

David Woodman (29:16)

Yeah, the train of it is fantastic. It's just great to see. Yeah. It's great to see it on that in Kingston.

Graham Duke (29:21)

I'll just point out, Ali, a certain irony in terms of your moving against Edgar. Just checking for what mug you've got for your tea at the moment.

Ali (29:30)

Dunstan.

Graham Duke (29:31)

It's a Dunstan mug.

Ali (29:33)

But this was. This is very much forced upon me. I don't like the man one bit. So Graham buys me Dunston merch. And there is such a thing. Incredibly.

Graham Duke (29:47)

So we've got England established in 927 and probably we'll see that. Obviously, obviously, there is more work to do on that front, but at that point, I guess Athelstan feels like, right, that's job done. I can now do a bit more regular kinging. So I've got another question from my son, Score, which I think leads nicely into this. If Anglo Saxon citizens upset their leaders, what types of punishments might they face from the leaders of the community?

David Woodman (30:09)

Yeah, well, one of the things that we're very fortunate about with Appelstan's reign is that we have a whole sequence of laws that he issued which has survived. So we can see very clearly the kinds of stipulations that he and his advisors were putting in place. And I'm afraid to say that the early 10th century, Britain was not a place that you wanted to live if you did anything wrong. I mean, there were brutal laws and brutal punishments meted out for people who did something wrong. So if you were over the age of 12 and you stole anything of any. Any worth, you were summarily executed. That was the. That was the. That was the punishment. They later changed it a bit to raise the age. They played around with it, but they came back, back to this idea of execution for very young and. And a whole range of awful punishments. So, for example, if you were. If you were what's known as a moneyer, and that was somebody who was responsible for the making of the King's coinage and you were found to have done it incorrectly, maybe you'd not put enough silver into it, or you use the wrong design or so on and so forth. You would have your dominant hand chopped off. So your right hand would be. Would be chopped off as a. So I'm afraid the answer is it's a really brutal world and it's really important, I think, to think about it as such a different place. We almost can't imagine it. And I think that makes it all the more interesting, actually. And it's the law codes that bring that home for me, that it's such

Graham Duke (31:29)

a brutal society and yet, like you said we have all these law codes from Athelstan. So actually, potentially we can say. Well, actually we've got a sense of. Of quite a just king, potentially someone who. This matters to the laws and keeping the order does actually matter an awful lot.

David Woodman (31:45)

Yeah. Really? Yeah, it's a. It's an important point. Yes. And it's quite a sophisticated place, actually, in terms of the way that governance works, in terms of the way systems of administration. The very fact that we have a coinage that can be controlled by the king is indicative of someone who has a lot of power. So. Yes, absolutely right. And the law code show a king who's concerned with issues of, I guess, the way that society is working, the bonds of society. You know, a big issue is theft that he comes back to again and again. We have some six law codes and that's something that we see repeatedly discussed. How do you deal with theft if people are stealing? How do you clamp down on this? So, yeah, the king is trying to do his job, I guess, of bringing law and order to the kingdom. And as you say, that's a bit of a different picture that we get of the early 10th century.

Graham Duke (32:28)

And what kind of control does he actually have? Because we said he's established the kingdom, but are these laws actually being kept all over the shop, or is he still kind of focused, more Wessex Mercy, the old kingdoms?

David Woodman (32:41)

Well, you're touching on an issue that is much debated. You know, the extent to which laws are aspirational. You know, were these things that are statements of kingship, statements of things that he hoped to achieve but never actually did? Well, for Athelstan's reign, we're really lucky that actually some of the law, the legal texts that survive are reports back from places like Kent. So we have a report back from the bishops and nobles in Kent who say things like, we're trying to implement your laws. This is working. That's not working. We're trying another. So we get a. We get a real sense of a system that is being used, that is being consulted. So, yes, yes, these things are happening. They're taking place across the kingdom. He has control in different parts. But I think it's also true to say that when you get to the limits of his. His new kingdom of English, places like the north of Northumbria, maybe the southwest in Cornwall, probably it's not stretching that far and things are breaking down. And because we just don't have enough contemporary surviving evidence, we can't see exactly what's going on in those areas.

Graham Duke (33:39)

And is it, the idea that it is now all Athelstan's laws. Because, like, when you had Alfred and you had the Danelaw, there's this kind of thing where, like, well, you guys have got your own rules that you kind of keep to. So as long as you're doing what you're doing, that's fine. Is Athelstan like, no, there's one law now, One king, one law, my law.

David Woodman (33:54)

I think he'd like to. He'd like to, he'd like to think that there was one law.

Graham Duke (33:58)

So.

David Woodman (33:59)

So the biggest statement of his laws is his second law code, a law code that was issued at a place called Greatly in Hampshire. And it calls for the, for example, to be one coinage that goes throughout the kingdom. And you can imagine that with one coinage, he would anticipate there'd be one system of law as well. But again, I, I, the realities of that were quite different, that if you're living in somewhere like the Danelaw in the east, in East Midlands, or in bits of Northumbria, that there was all sorts of local conventions and local customs that couldn't be contravened. And again, they just haven't survived in writing, so we don't know about them. So I think, yes, that's what he would have wanted and that's what he wanted to impose, but the reality on the ground is probably a bit different.

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Graham Duke (35:12)

Now another area for him that will be important and another area that probably is not exactly alienating. But this remembrance, it's a very different world. Obviously religion be very important to Athelstan as well. And actually when we talk about Edgar and Dunstan, Ali's favorite, I don't know, I was reminded a little bit when the way that Edgar and Dunstan kind of use religious reform to kind of try and centralize government and church, etc, a little bit like, is there a sense that Athelstan is doing that? He's mixing kind of church and politics together. Create England?

David Woodman (35:45)

Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's a lot of evidence to suggest that Athelstan was a deeply pious individual and very genuinely so. So one thing that's really interesting about is that he's the. The first English monarch for whom we have a. A surviving contemporary portrait in a manuscript in Corpus Christi in college in, in Cambridge. And it's this beautiful image of Athelstan with his head bowed, looking at a manuscript and we think either giving the manuscript or just showing his veneration for the person in front of him, who is Saint Cuthbert. So he's really depicted as a sort of learned king, someone who's devoted to the church. And we know that he was famous for collecting saintly relics and for his sponsorship and patronage of churches up and down the English kingdom. So, yes, he's very clearly a devout person in his own right. And some of the documents he issues call for. For there to be penance done and prayers said in his family's name as well. So clearly a very devout. But I think as well, Graham, that what you said about, you know, this, this also brings together or helps him to put forward this idea of a unified place, a unified kingdom of English is absolutely right. And, you know, the north in particular was a place where he needed to sort of solidify his control there. Well, how would he do that? He would try and get onside the big Northumbrian churches, so places like the Archbishopric of York and the community of St Cuthbert, which was then settled at St. Chesterly Street. And there's a lot of evidence for him giving gifts to those places, trying to bribe them even to get them on side and make sure that they, you know, they follow his, his, his rule.

Graham Duke (37:17)

Because it's clever, because it's. We imagine that the bishops would all just be these very pious fellows that have no connection to the worldly matters. But actually, it's interesting, even Arthur Athelstan, you still get these rebellious bishops in York that seem to kind of be doing their own thing. So they're very much political players.

David Woodman (37:34)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if you think about York, I mean, York's so interesting. I mean, for generations, by the early 10th century, it's been ruled by Vikings and. And now we get this English king who's saying, you know, I'm in control. But of course, from the York perspective, it was not at all clear whether Vikings would come back and dominate there or whether the, you know, kings from the West Saxon royal line would, Would win out. So their hedgehog, their bets. At times we see them on the side of Vikings, at other times we see them on the side of West Saxon kings. And that's just right. I mean, that just made common sense, I would imagine. And so, yeah, they're really important in secular terms as well. I mean, those divisions between the secular world and the religious world are not as distinct as they are today. So in Aethelstan's time, there was an Archbishop of Canterbury called Wolfhelm, who we think was instrumental in both the writing of Athelstan's law and probably also the important implementation of it. So, yeah, really important secular figures too.

Graham Duke (38:25)

And we've mentioned him already on Ali's Muck. But is it true that Dunstan's career starts under Aethelstan? Is that the right timing, or is Dunstan a little on young side at this point?

David Woodman (38:35)

Yeah, no, that is right, yes. That is starting at about this period. And so another Dunstan, as I'm sure you know, and you probably discussed on your. On your podcast, I mean, becomes famous as One of the three major reformers, the late 10th century monastic reform movement. And actually some of these ideas are percolating through already in the court of King Athelstan. So another very extraordinary feature of Athelstan's reign is that his court becomes a sort of a hub of intellectual activity and religious ideas. New ideas are percolating through from Europe. There's a lot of European scholars that are present, we think, think it's one of the earliest places where we can see an interaction with the game of chess taking place, which is an Indian game. So driving forward these innovations and these new ideas about the importance of monasticism are coming through as well. And we see groups of abbots attesting his royal diplomas, which we've not really seen before. So he seems to be favoring these things. And because Dunston is, you know, we think, you know, partly involved in all of this, partly being brought up at the court, he would have been exposed to this and he would have, you know, presumably taking it forward to the. To the monastic reform movement later in the. In the 10th century.

Graham Duke (39:46)

So that's all kind of more good arguments for Athelstan as first king then, actually, that all the people that kind of go on to do important stuff sort of 20, 30 years later, actually, they've all kind of. That's all starts really at Athelstan's court. That's the world that they've taken their

David Woodman (40:00)

influence from, I would say. So, yeah, I think it's. I think it's a really, you know, a lot of these ideas are beginning with. With Athelstan. And again, I think it comes back to this problem that they just haven't been written up very well by contemporaries. They were starting, but nobody was giving it a kind of gloss, you know, a glossy magazine narrative that would say the right things about what he was doing. But, yeah, they can be traced back to Athelstan's court for sure.

Graham Duke (40:25)

Now, I'd like to go back to the idea that you were saying before about Athelstan on the coinage. And sometimes he's king of the English, but also all of Britain and getting a sense of that, because perhaps the bit that will jump out, certainly for us, when we were doing before, was his interactions, like with the Scots and with the Vikings and the battle he fights there. So does he actually see himself as king or Emperor of Britain, or is there another reason for him to kind of use that title? Or is he just generally like, no, the whole island, that's. That's my reign, that's my rule?

David Woodman (40:58)

Well, I think there's good evidence to suggest that he. He does see himself as the Rex totius Britanniae, the King of all Britain. So we have that title on his coins. Some of his royal diplomas use that title as well. So these are. These are claims that are coming right from the center of his royal assembly. And if we. If we look at the royal diplomas that are issued during his reign after nine to seven, we get these incredible lists of witnesses which tell us in detail who's present at the meeting of these royal assemblies. And there we have the names of various Welsh kings, a Scottish king, a king of Strathclyd and Cumbria. In other words, these people are being summoned to the court of King Athelstan and required to attend these assemblies that are taking place in Wessex, far distant from their, you know, their centers of power in Alba or in the Welsh kingdom. So. So there's a degree of reality about. About these claims. We think that Athelstan taxed the Welsh, levied a huge tax on them in a. On a yearly basis. And there is evidence that this is bitterly resented by. By the Welsh. There's an extraordinary poem that survives from the. We think from. Well, I think from Athelstan's time. There's a bit of debate about when it was first written, but a Welsh poem called Armis Predine Valer, the Great Prophecy of Britain, written by Welsh author, which talks in the most bloodthirsty terms for calls for people to rise up and kill the English and slaughter them and chuck them out from Britain as a result of the tax that's being levied basically on them. So that's giving you some indication of how Athelstan's claims are being Received. But if we're talking about the realities of his power within those places. So, yes, he might be able to say that I'm the king of all Britain and I can bring these people to my rule assembly. I don't think we have any. Any real evidence that he's able to sort of implement any kind of control or authority within the Welsh kingdoms or within Scotland. That's a different matter. But periodically, he does try to enforce himself. And in the year 934, he marches north to Scotland and he wages a campaign of war there. So, yeah, there are real claims to rule over these different places.

Graham Duke (43:01)

It's just extraordinary how much power he's got at this point. I sort of always wonder, how did he do it? Because it's not that long. It's only, you know, his grandfather Alfred, at one point, the entirety of England is just a swamp in the southwest. And then you've got Aethelstan marching up north into Scotland. He's summoning Welsh kings and they're paying tax. Like, how has he. How has he done it? How has it gone so far so quickly?

David Woodman (43:25)

Yeah, it's a really good point, I think. I think some of the foundations have been laid, of course, by his. By Alfred, his grandfather, and by his father, Edward. One of the things I think, increasingly, in my mind, my own thinking is important, is Alfred and Edward had built a system of defensive sites, really strongholds, burrs, fortified settlements, basically, across the Midlands and in Wessex. And so these were an extraordinary network of places that people could take refuge if there were ever Viking raids in the 9th and 10th centuries. But they also become outposts of royal authority. So they eventually become towns, they become places where laws are issued, but also where money is regulated. And I think that gave Athelstan a secure base from which to expand his authority northwards. So this creation of these fortified settlements, these burrs by Edward and by Alfred, I think, enabled Athelstan. But it is amazing what he does just from being King of the anglo saxons in 924, 927, he's now king of the English. He's even asserting himself on a British white scale. And actually, he becomes extraordinarily important on a European level as well. I mean, we get various contemporary rulers in Europe sending ambassadors to the court of King Athelstan, wanting to have wedding alliances, marriage alliances with. With various of his half sisters. So he's a really extraordinarily powerful person, even on a European level as well. And he's. He's kind of the first person that we see from Anglo Saxon England having a concerted foreign policy as well, because of the levels of success that he has within. Within the British Isles.

Ali (44:52)

Wow. So. So that's. That European influence. Is that still just. I said just. But it feels like all of the kings up to this point are all we're all talking about around the North Sea, like the North Sea pond and the stuff around the edges talking to each other, but proper, like mainland Europe we're talking about.

David Woodman (45:15)

Yeah, mainland Europe, absolutely. Yeah. So northwest Europe. So what's going on in Europe at this point is very interesting as well. There's a lot of competition, a lot of noble families rising up, trying to assert themselves as kings in their own right. So at the same time that England is sort of coming together as one in Europe, there is fragmentation, political fragmentation. In other words, there's opportunity for people within Europe, but also for someone like Athelstan, who's so authoritative and important in Britain and Europe, broadly speaking, is divided into a number of different places. Places like the Kingdom of West Frankia, the Kingdom of East Frankia, the Kingdom of Burgundy. And we see Athelstan marrying some of his half sisters into these contemporary ruling houses. He's setting up these extraordinary alliances with, with European rulers. And we, you know, there's a wonderful occasion when the king of the then king of east franchise called Henry the Fowler, is looking for a bride for his son, someone called Otto. He goes, he sends ambassadors, we know about them arriving in England. He says to Athelstan, you know, can you, can you send me a suitable bride? Athelstan sends back two of his half sisters for, for Otto to choose from. We've got this amazing testimony of, of these sisters, this group of English, this English men and women traveling across northwestern Europe. They turn up in places like Ryland, where they sign manuscripts that are there today in these different, different areas. And they eventually get to the court of Henry the Fowler and Otto. And Otto chooses ultimately Edith as his bride. It's a breathtaking testimony to the travel that the networks that Athelstan and his family are creating across, across northwestern Europe and into Britain, it's, it's amazing stuff.

Ali (46:54)

That's brilliant. What, what else are you looking for for the birth of a nation?

David Woodman (46:59)

Lavois. It seems we forgot about it

Graham Duke (47:04)

because it's getting ahead a little bit because obviously we've got to discuss Brunenburg, but I sort of wonder what he like if he'd hadn't, because he's relatively. I mean, they're not a very long lived bunch. The West Saxon line, are they? But he's relatively young still when he dies, you think. Because if he just had another 10 years, what might he have achieved in that? Because I think you're right in saying the year he dies, he's actually had a. He's. He's not gone to, but he's led, had some kind of campaign. He sent off into Frankia or something. So he's really starting to be this major European figure. You wonder what another decade he might have done.

Ali (47:37)

Wow.

David Woodman (47:38)

Yeah, we know that a duchy called Brittany in northwestern Europe. Well, Brittany as we know it today. One of its rulers was brought up at the. At the court of King Athelstan. And he helps insert this person back into, you know, into Brittany as a ruler. So he's intervening on a northwest European stage. And as you say in Graham, he's sending fleets there to invade as well. So, yeah, he's becoming more and more important. And, yeah, he dies in 939 at a relatively young age. And it does beg the question about what he could have gone to achieve, really. And again, it's this extraordinary personal power that we need to be thinking about. I mean, we should probably talk about the big battle that runs him. And, you know, I guess with this, with these kind of claims of extraordinary power come. He must have. There must have been resentment building in the background. People must have thought, who is this guy? You know, he's creating all these networks across Europe and, and how is he doing this? And, you know, we don't. We, you know, just like that Welsh poem, you know, we resent the kind of power that he's. That he's coming to wield. Well, you know, in 937, we get this amazing coalition, this, this rising up of. Of a Viking force with Olaf Guddfristson from Dublin, teams up with King Constantine of Alba in Scotland, probably also with King Owen of Strathclyde and Cumbria, and they try to overthrow Athelstan. And it's clearly a major episode. Now, battles were a very routine thing in the late 9th, early 10th century. It's very difficult to go a year without reading about some kind of battle. But the fact that this was a battle of a new kind kind is really clear because many chronicles in, in Wales, in Ireland, in Scotland and in Scandinavia and in England talk about the importance of this, this encounter and talk about how many people were killed. From the English point of view, the. The main contemporary narrative text is something called the Anglo Saxon Chronicle. For Athelstan's reign is. It's Quite laconic. It doesn't have much detail, but when it gets to this year ninth, there's this wonderful poem, the poem of the Battle of Brunentburg inserted, which talks about the success of Athelstan in countering this Viking coalition that had risen up against him, and talks about the slaughter of people, bodies being left on the battlefield for scavenger birds. So it's clearly a major, major episode that he did well to win in 937.

Graham Duke (50:01)

And you wonder what sort of legacy that has, not just in terms of the basic fact that it meant that England stayed England and all that, but just almost the relations within Brit and that, you know, almost still have now. Like Edward, I must have looked at Athelstan and thought, oh, yeah, yeah, I think I, I can see a certain amount of logic in what he's saying about the Welsh and the Scots and stuff. Just the relations between the countries, the extent to which that's almost formed by Athelstan, those ongoing tensions and.

David Woodman (50:28)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, it's a really good point. I'm sure it's a. I'm sure it was something that, that, that had a formative value in the, in the late 10th century, I'm sure, you know, we get a. In the late 10th century, actually we have a chronicler called Ethelwayard who's writing a translation of the Anglo Saxon Chronicle and he's explicit about it. He says that, you know, England was really saved on that day and that the result of Brunanburg was the bringing together of this, of the English kingdom. So he's in no doubt, you know, a generation on about the importance of that meeting at Brunenberg. I mean, ironically, one of the interesting things about, about Brunanburg is we don't really know exactly where Brunan Burr was. And so a big debate in, in modern, by modern historians is where did this take place? You know, where was this crucial battle? And, and sources point in different directions and, and some people think of it in the east, in, in, in Yorkshire and other people think of it in, in the northwest. And my money's on the place called Brumbura on the Wirral in the, in the. But it's not a view that's shared by everybody and, and, and it's a controversy that will continue to rumble, I'm sure, and people will have different views about where it took place. But for me, it's just the fact that he manages to win on this occasion. I think that's the vital thing.

Graham Duke (51:40)

Need tapestry. Say Hastings have got the image really?

Ali (51:44)

Yeah.

Graham Duke (51:44)

Stick in the mind.

Ali (51:45)

That's it. You've nailed it, Craig. It's because there isn't a tapestry.

Graham Duke (51:48)

What should we do for 2027 then? Get a Brun and Bear tapestry?

David Woodman (51:53)

Yeah, we should.

Ali (51:54)

That's a great idea.

Graham Duke (51:58)

So think about Athelstan's legacy then. You mentioned at the start of the episode the fact that Alfred the Great, his grandfather, is probably the most famous of the Saxon rulers. And I think we had a, we did a live show a few years ago in Manchester where we did an Athelsan vs Alfred episode and got people to choose and we sort of had the question of who really deserves to be known as the Great. If you could only have one. So I'll put that question to you in a minute. But first of all, we've got the last of the questions for my son's class, which should set up the Alfred Athelstan comparison nicely as it's potentially a series of Alfred myth busting questions. Did Alfred really burn the cakes?

David Woodman (52:36)

No, I think, again, I think that's another one that can be consigned to the mythbasket. That's a later story that works its way in. I think it's something that first originates in the 11th century from memory. But yes, no, that's definitely, definitely a myth. We have no 9th century contemporary evidence for Alfred burning the case.

Graham Duke (52:53)

Is it true that Alfred made up lots of stories to make him appear more impressive and fearsome and also that he changed his history to be more popular with the Saxons and Vikings?

David Woodman (53:04)

Yeah, that's true in a way, I think. So. Again, if we think about the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, which in origin is a text that comes from Alfred's court and his biographer Assa, they, they definitely champion Alfred in ways that are picking him up, so to speak. You know, they sort of, they talk about, even if, when he loses a battle, they sort of downplay the significance and, and they're definitely giving a spin to different events and, and there's a set of genealogies that accompany the Anglo Saxon chronicle which tweak his family history in different ways and talk about him going back to famous biblical figures, even to the, the pagan God Woden. So, so yes, there are, there are definite elements in which he's, you know, he's benefiting, if you like, from historians who are working at his court.

Graham Duke (53:44)

And there's been something recently, hasn't, about coins that were found with the immersion king and Alfred on the same thing and suggesting that maybe actually Alfred wasn't quite as dominant over mercy as he.

David Woodman (53:56)

Yeah, they're called the Two Emperors coins. And you're absolutely right. So there had been a theory for many years that Alfred was dominating and taking over Mercia. But these coins are. Are beginning to, I guess, provide a degree of corrective about that, that actually the contemporary ruler in Mercia was more powerful than we hitherto thought. And I think that's another wonderful thing about doing this period of history, actually, that there's new evidence emerging quite a lot of the time, thanks to the work of metal detectors. We find new coins, we even find new texts or new endings to texts that have been found in recent years, which can change our view. And that's really, really important. It's really important, important to be open to these changes of evidence and what they might tell us about different periods of time. So I think that's a wonderful example of the way in which the material record can sort of alter what we find in the narrative text as well.

Graham Duke (54:44)

It's a completely changing subject now, but we're about to do a special episode on the Tudor composer Thomas Tallis. And there's one piece he's got which they always assumed was in one reign. But then in the 70s, they found just packed into building, just for a bit of insulation. Insulation. The music. But with this text that was meant. It was obviously much earlier and it was obviously. It was composed must have been about 15 years before. That's a completely different reign, completely different context, and it's just because it was shoved into the side of a building somewhere that just got lost for centuries and centuries. And then they found it and it rewrites a whole chapter History final Alfred myth busting question, which I think will give him a little bit of a step up because we've been knocking him down a few pegs. Did Alfred the Great actually lead an army to defeat the Vikings or was this another story he made up?

David Woodman (55:33)

No, I'm sure that he was very much involved in leading armies front and centre, a primary duty of any Anglo Saxon king. And Alfred would definitely have been doing that. And even his daughter Aethelflad, the Lady of the Mersons, who we mentioned earlier. I mean, one of the reasons that she is so interesting is that she is described as leading expeditions in various ways across Mercia as well. So, yes, Alfred would definitely have been involved in leading our.

Graham Duke (55:56)

So I'm sure from a very neutral and unbiased perspective, as the author of the book, First King of England, Alfred versus Athelstan, I guess. Battle of Eddington versus Battle of Brunanburg. If only one of them deserves the title the Great. Which one do you think it should be?

David Woodman (56:13)

Well, I'm afraid I would have to go with. With Aethelstan, who's very dear to me. And interestingly, he was called the Great, was an appellation of him as Magnus Latin, the Great. And again, it's just interesting that it didn't stick for him that, you know, that was something that was talked about. It's in the text of William of Malmesbury and it just hasn't survived in historiographical terms, so. But yes, for me, Athelstan wins that particular contest.

Ali (56:39)

I've got an alternative. I mean, it was 15 years ago now, but I remember hearing about Alfred and just thinking, the. Sufficient would be better. And by the time. By the time Athelson comes around, yeah, fine. The Great. That works. But it just. Oh, all this playing Apple Stamp did

Graham Duke (57:02)

that as well there.

Ali (57:03)

Yeah, but he's. He can. It's. It's like when I'm telling the kids to get their shoes on, then do the Lego. That's fine if he's already got his shoes on. Alfred hasn't got his shoes on. I forgot what I mean by that. But it makes sense early on.

Graham Duke (57:17)

Well, so, Toby, thank you so much for chatting to us today. It's been absolutely fascinating hearing some more about Athelstan. Is there anything else about him that we've not discussed today that you'd sort of want to leave us with or leave people with to think about? Or have we sort of covered all the main points?

David Woodman (57:33)

I think we've covered everything. Yeah. I mean, I think. I think really the main thing is that is the 2027 anniversary coming up.

Graham Duke (57:38)

Yeah, definitely.

Ali (57:40)

Yeah. We can do something.

David Woodman (57:43)

That's fantastic. Thanks so much for having me.

Ali (57:45)

Yeah, we'll get really fun.

Graham Duke (57:46)

We'll get our needles out, start on the tapestry. And

Ali (57:50)

we've got some really talented patrons who do. There's a whole channel on. I mean, I reckon we could get. We could get some momentum there. I mean, I'm saying this. I have. Will have nothing to do with it. So that. That's easy for me to say, I suppose. Yeah, good idea.

Graham Duke (58:08)

Thanks so much for coming on. If people would like to find out more about you and your sort of other works and things that you've done, where should they go to get more info?

David Woodman (58:17)

Oh, that's kind. Gr. Yes, my. I've got a website called D woodman.co.uk so that's got all of my information about social media and Books and that kind of thing. So. So, yeah, please go there.

Graham Duke (58:26)

Not that it's a visual podcast, but got the. The book there. First King of England, Athelstan and the Birth of a Kingdom. If people like to read the book in full.

Ali (58:37)

That is a. That is a sexy cover. Christmas.

David Woodman (58:42)

Yeah. Winston did a wonderful job with the COVID Yeah, that's great. Really nice to meet you both. Thanks for having me.

Ali (58:47)

Thanks, David, it's been great. Cheers.

Graham Duke (58:52)

So that was David Woodman on Athelstan as first King of England.

Ali (58:57)

I mean, I like the idea of a campaign.

Graham Duke (59:00)

Yeah.

Ali (59:00)

And we should totally get voted 2027.

Graham Duke (59:04)

Whether they want us or not, we're going to be involved.

David Woodman (59:06)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ali (59:07)

There was. With blade half drawn tapestry on a bit of paper.

Graham Duke (59:12)

Can I doodle something? You could doodle something together and just send that in.

Ali (59:16)

Yeah. Scan it

Graham Duke (59:19)

anyway. Let us know what you thought about all of that and whether you've got any good ideas for marking the creation of England in 927. No. Well, in 927, but for 2027.

Ali (59:30)

And strangely, you know that I reckon more people know of the Battle of Bamber than they do Brunenburg. Brun. There's other. Which was Alfred's one proves my point

Graham Duke (59:43)

or it doesn't prove my point. I'm not sure, but either way. Well, Alfred's Eddington. Yeah.

Ali (59:50)

What was the one you were saying?

Graham Duke (59:52)

Well, you said Bamber.

Ali (59:54)

Yeah.

Graham Duke (59:54)

Which is neither of them. Brunanbur.

Ali (59:58)

Yeah.

Graham Duke (59:59)

I think that's. That's proving the alpha point, isn't it?

Ali (60:02)

I think that's what I'm remembering.

Graham Duke (60:03)

Yeah. Because Bamba has a castle.

Ali (60:07)

That's why I'm remembering that.

Graham Duke (60:08)

Yep, yep, yep. All the more reason that we need to do something to get 927 more firmly in people's heads. Quite. So, any ideas about what we can do do? Send those in. You can get in touch with us via various means. If you go to our website rexfactorpodcast.com you'll find the links to our social media on Twitter, Instagram, BlueSky, etc. Or email rexfactorpodcasthotmar.com Nice. And if you'd like to support the podcast, you can leave a review and subscribe or whatever provider you use. And if you donate monthly on patreon.com RexFactor you get an ad free version of this podcast, plus loads and loads of bonus content. It's not available elsewhere else with. And who is she?

Ali (60:59)

Someone relevant.

Graham Duke (61:03)

So that's all from us today. Hopefully you enjoyed that interview. Our next episode will be messages and previews 12 where we will respond to some of your messages and share some previews of that bonus content, including a special episode on the Tudor composer Thomas Tallis.

Ali (61:16)

Cool.

Graham Duke (61:16)

Till then, we shall see you next time.

Ali (61:18)

Bye Bye.