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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. And welcome back to Rob has a podcast. I'm your host, Turn Armstrong, and I'm here today, the very special deep dive interview with America's favorite player. It's Keanu. How you doing, Keanu?
- [00:31]
B
What's going on, brother? Thanks for having me.
- [00:33]
A
Very excited to have you. You. You reached out and you said, hey, I would love to chat through the game because I need to learn. Yeah, I need to be better. Because, listen, you said on the show you want to go do the challenge. You want to. You want to be the first two time winner? Are you still. Are you still hoping to be the first two time winner?
- [00:57]
B
Yeah, absolutely, man. I, you know, I feel like when I. When I said that people that rub people in the house the wrong way, and it wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna be, because I'm so much better than everyone, it was like, no, I just want to challenge myself, you know, I mean, there's been plenty of one time winners. There's never been a two time winner. I want to be the first. I don't think that's crazy.
- [01:14]
A
Listen, a lot of one time winners are. They're scared to come back and try again. You know what I mean? Already.
- [01:20]
B
I've already lost when people wanted me to win, so what's. What's left? You know what I mean?
- [01:27]
A
All right, well, I was talking to you about this before, but, you know, really, in terms of these deep dives, it's really at the pace that you want and in the amount of depth that you want. So we can just start kind of running through the preseason, running through the weeks as they go, and then any questions that you have that you want to ask me or. Or sort of maybe, like, if there are any, like, moments where, like, what was happening here? You. You said something earlier that I was like, oh, we should record this. You said it felt like watching back like you're on the Truman Show.
- [02:08]
B
Yeah. Yeah, dude. It felt like I was on the Truman show because it felt like everyone wanted me out so badly that they had this, like, cohesive front to lie to me about everything, and I was just like. So they fabricated what I thought was real and what I thought was fake. You know what I mean?
- [02:24]
A
Yeah, we. I mean, we talked about it. There were definitely moments where it was just like. Like, it was really like, here's the game that's happening, and then here is the game that Keanu thinks is happening. And it was. I mean, it was brutal at times to watch. But. But here's. Here's what I will say to you, Keanu, before start really getting into it, I, I, I was losing my mind a little bit about the strategic gameplay this season in terms of, like, you know, people continually targeting their own allies, you know, things like that. And despite the fact that I think that you often found yourself in a position where you didn't know the true landscape of the game, you did seem to be one of the people, and I mentioned this a few times, that seemed to actually have your head straight when it came to what you should be doing. The problem is you didn't. It was like, if the pieces around you were where you thought they were, you were doing the right thing, whereas a lot of other people, they did know where the pieces were and were doing the wrong thing.
- [03:36]
B
Yeah. So that was a problem I ran into a lot, was that, like, I would be trying to strategize with somebody and I would be losing my brain because I'm like, yo, if, if you are giving me all the information that I need, this is 100% the move you need to make. And they would net would never do it. And I was like, all right, well, then I. That's one thing that I wish I could go back was like, I realized that and just, like, kept thinking that they were making the wrong moves. They weren't making the wrong moves. They were making the right moves for them because they were never giving me all the information. And I was just too dumb to. To think that they weren't doing that. You know what I mean?
- [04:11]
A
There were so many times where you'd be like, maybe I'm just the dumb one. Maybe I've just got this all wrong. And I was just like, yeah, do listen.
- [04:23]
B
Yeah, that was one thing that I want when I go back and I have that feeling was like, maybe I'm just a dumb one. I'm like, okay, yes, I am. That's.
- [04:32]
A
Yeah. All right, well, let's, let's go back. Let's talk about before you even entered the game. You knew you were going to come on very famously. You watched some compilations, some clips that got you in trouble with Rachel in the season. Tell me about your, your preparation coming into the game.
- [04:56]
B
So, you know, during the recruiting process, the homework, if you will, was to watch like, one season. So I saw season 26. You know, I, I fell in love with, like, the, you know, the competition part aspect of it. I love, I'm competitive, so I love the you games. I love the social aspect of it. I felt like I would initially at least be pretty good at it because I'm a personal trainer, you know, I have to be personable. I like to think that I good at building connection, which, you know, in the house, there's reasons for why that was difficult at the beginning, but so I just kind of like, fell in love with the game to a point where I just, like, binged. You know, I saw season six, I saw season 16, 17, 20, 23, and then 26, like I said. And then, you know, there's a YouTuber that has all those, like, highlights of the winners and kind of breaks down their game. So I was watching a couple of those highlights.
- [05:51]
A
Yeah. What. What was your main takeaway from, like, watching that stuff, like, coming into the game was? What did you feel like you had learned from watching those things?
- [06:03]
B
Hmm. I felt like my. My biggest takeaway was I felt like the game rewarded people with higher emotional quotients than intellectual quotients. And so my gameplay, I feel like, reflected a lot of. At least, like, the way that I handled situations. So, yeah, you know, part of the reason why, you know, America loves me or whatever was because I never, like, gave in to, like, when people baited me, I never gave in to that. And I always felt like that was always the right move. You know, the one time I did, coincidentally, was the one time I painted the huge target on my back. You know, when I said, you know, off one by one, which is crazy to me, I didn't think that that was such a, you know, profound, crazy statement. I was just basically recapping what you're supposed to do in the game, and everyone took that as a personal attack.
- [06:57]
A
I think, honestly, like, part of it too, is that once you get into a position in the house, you have, like, a certain social standing. There's going to be less leeway toward you with comments like that. Right. Like, you know, if Zach at the time had said something like that, people would have been like, oh, Zach. But. But because you were somebody that already, and I don't know how much you knew it at the time, but, like, already was so low on the hierarchy of social status in the house. It was very easy to be like, wow, really, Keanu, huh? Pick us all off, huh?
- [07:36]
B
Yeah. Can I ask you a question?
- [07:38]
A
Sure.
- [07:40]
B
When did that start becoming the case? Because I felt like. I felt like pretty early on before, like, faces started popping up on the wall. And I'm not sure when the live feed started, but I felt like I had a. Like, I had a pretty good standing in the house as far as, like, likability. And things like that. And it wasn't until, I want to say maybe like the veto ceremony when Jimmy called me out for whatever. And he had it out for me from the very beginning because he wanted like one of the, one of the bros out really bad. So he started already with the rumors that I started Shower Gate and all that bullshit, you know, So I. We already kind of didn't like each other, but I thought maybe that was just like a one off. Maybe him and Ashley didn't like me. I'm curious to know how many people in the house actually didn't because I thought I was good with a lot of people.
- [08:26]
A
So. Yeah. So I will, I will give you sort of the experience that we had. I was actually streaming. I did a 24 hour stream when the live feed started. So there's. There's record of me watching this. The live feed started the night of day six. So pretty deep in at that point. One of the first things we saw was you and Kelly trying to convince Vince to not nominate Kelly and instead nominate Jimmy. And we later found out this sort of origin of that, which was of course Jimmy trying to target you, Rachel trying to warn you and all of that stuff that happened. But by that time after, like Vince basically went. Walked away from that conversation, went up to Jimmy and them and complained about you like immediately. And that's when it was clear like, oh, Keanu and Kelly are on the outs. Like, like everyone's complaining about sort of Kelly and about, you know, Keanu. Keanu's like the, the standing that he thinks he has. He. He doesn't really have. And it was pretty much ever like Zach had talked to Jimmy about you targeting him. Zay had Ava does in the morning. You talk to Ava in the morning. She runs it to Jimmy. Like, basically everyone was ratting you out. Everyone was building you up as a target. And. And this is the thing, right? So the morning of just to. To get here, so you had talked to a bunch of people about like, hey, Kelly goes up. We want to keep Kelly. Really, we would love if Kelly didn't go up. And basically everyone you talked to, except for Rachel and Morgan ratted you out to Jimmy. And then the next morning, you, I thought understandably, were suspicious that Morgan may have ratted you out because you saw her walking with Jimmy, right, that night. They'd actually been arguing all night, right?
- [10:24]
B
That's what she told me. And I was just like, I was.
- [10:26]
A
Like, yeah, it really was true. And that was one of the first times I saw Morgan. Well, it was one of the first times I'm working, period. But she was pushing for something that she wanted, which was you to be off the block and for Zay to be the target. And she was pushing hard, like, well past. Like, everyone else disagreed with her, and she was still pushing. I was like, oh, look at Morgan. Like, she really pushes for what she wants. And so she had been arguing with Jimmy. They were kind of like. I believe that walk that they had was them kind of being like, hey, you know, we got a little heated, but. But everything's gonna be fine. She had talked to Vince that night as well in the hammock, saying, hey, don't do what Jimmy wants. You shouldn't put up Keanu. You should put up Kelly, and they should be the target, because he knows how to play chess. He's very good at chess, and that means he's dangerous. And so. So all of that happens. Then the next morning, you were suspicious about that. Very famously called her a snake, and she ended up crying. And all of this stuff happens. When that happened, Kelly went upstairs and told Vince, hey, there's a bunch of drama with Keanu right now. Maybe this is your excuse to put him up instead of me. And at the same time, Jimmy had made, like, a pretty successful pitch to Vince, which was, I know you think that you'll be good if you put Kelly up and that she won't go home, but you won't be good. You don't have the numbers. And Vince kept. Kept counting the numbers, and he was like, I have. I have seven. I have seven. Then I could break a tie. And Jimmy was like, you don't have. Like, you don't have. I'm not voting to keep Kelly. You're gonna look like an absolute idiot if you put Kelly up and she goes home. And Vince was starting to crack, seemingly. Then when this Kelly information comes up, he's like, oh, my God, maybe I really do need to put up Keanu. I need to talk to Riley and Morgan. Those are the two people he needed to talk to. Riley. I think for obvious reasons, he felt like, you know, the three of you maybe had a thing at that point. Yeah. And. And Morgan, because already he was very deeply connected to Morgan. Um, he talked to Riley, and Riley was like, yeah, f that guy. I don't care. I'm done with him. And then it was like, oh, boy, this. This might actually happen. Then he talked to Rachel, and Rachel said, do not put him up. That would be a terrible idea. He's a good target to leave in the house. Various reasons. She also wanted to add. Final person he talked to before the feeds went down for the ceremony was Morgan, who said, don't do it. Don't put up Keanu. Don't do Jimmy's bidding. And so then we eventually found out you didn't go up. And so for us, for me, at least, I was watching. I was like, keanu's downstairs thinking that Morgan and. And Mickey did this to him. And then you talked to them, and then we're kind of like, maybe they didn't. But then thinking Rachel might have done it to you. And they. Those were, like, the two. The only two people in the house at that point. They were actually sticking up for you. And I was like, oh, no.
- [13:32]
B
Yeah, man. It's crazy, because obviously, if the live feeds went on on day six, and then people wouldn't necessarily know this, but I created a final three with Vince and Riley on day two. And that was what, like, dude, I was like. Because I'm just, like, a loyal person like that. So, like, for me, that was, like, the only thing that I cared about. And so anytime Vince and Riley told me anything, I was like, so, like, yes, okay. That's what it is. And they always told me, like, don't trust Rachel. She's doing this, she's doing that. And, you know, at the time, I hadn't really built a good relationship with Rachel, or at least I was still thinking about her reputation more so than my personal experience with her at that time. But I was conflicted with her because I did have a good personal experience with her at the time. So it was like one of those, like, kind of dichotomy things where it was hard for me to trust her. And then Morgan, you know, I don't know why I couldn't. I couldn't really trust her at the time. I'm trying to remember why, but I felt like she was in with, like, Mickey and Will and stuff. And I remember Will feeling the need to tell her that she wasn't initially a part of the people that I wanted to work with. So I was like, oh, well, if he feels comfortable telling her that, and she's the one. And from my perception, talking to Jimmy and causing all this stuff, then, you know, then I don't. I don't want to be around her either. So that's really interesting to know that the people that I did not think were with me were actually with me. And the people that I thought were like, man, the. The Vinnies, Riley's, Kelly's, you know, Adrian's. The people that I thought I was like, ride or die with are the ones that are like, all right, let's run them over again.
- [15:10]
A
Yeah. Yeah, it was. And I think, to be fair to you, to some degree, and I haven't spoken to Morgan yet, but, like, I believe at this time, from my perspective at least, it wasn't so much that she was like, hey, I'm really sticking up for Keanu. It was more so like, she had an agenda which was zay. And in her mind, you going up was not part of that agenda. And so she was pushing for that. I don't really think that. I think she felt she had a good relationship with you, and I think she was surprised when. When you called her out. But. But, like, even after being called out by you, she was like, because. Because basically, Vince was like, hey, how are you feeling about the Keanu thing? Do you, like, is this. And she was like, I don't care. It. It's fine. Like, I'm the person who was wronged, theoretically, and I'm telling you, don't do it. Rachel, on the other hand, was confusing for us, for me, at the time, because in my view, like, it made more sense for Rachel that you go up on the block, because at the time, I hadn't seen your conversation or how she was feeling about you. I just felt like, well, obviously, she's going to want to protect Amy. So it makes more sense for Keanu to be on the block, given that Keanu will go home over Amy and versus, like, Kelly, where, like, it's a little bit trickier. And it sets up her against Vince because Vince is going to want to try to keep Cali, which. Which it did. Vince versus Rachel was a huge thing that week. But then she stood there and said, no, don't put up Keanu. I was like, rachel, what are you doing? And then we watched the episodes and saw that conversation she had. I was like, oh, wow. She, like, just genuinely wants to work with Keanu. And that kind of surprised me. But. But, yeah, from my perspective, she was pretty much the only one who, like, really pushed to want to work with you at that time. What I will say is, like, I think that a lot of the people who were happy to throw you under the bus at that time, yeah, most of them continued to, for the most part, but, like, some of them at times, because you pushed so hard to be working with them, eventually they started to go. I mean, I. I guess he's an ally, you know, I guess I shouldn't be actively targeting them, but this was also the season of people targeting their allies, so that wasn't even that useful.
- [17:40]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that was really kind of disheartening. I haven't seen, like, the whole season or anything like that, but, yeah, it was crazy to me to see how much I was fighting for people, like, to not go on the block or anything like that, and then for them to turn around and be like, oh, yeah, first chance I get, he's on my block. I'm like, damn.
- [17:54]
A
It's. I. I think that, like, And. And tell me if I'm. I'm being too preachy at you here, because you said you. You wanted to, like, learn as much as possible, and I'm somebody who hasn't played the game. Like, I am not some arbiter of strategy. I don't. I don't. I don't claim to be by any means.
- [18:11]
B
However, from what I understand, you're, like, the guy that's really good at breaking down people's games, so I'm. I'm here to learn. 100.
- [18:17]
A
Thank you.
- [18:18]
B
I'm not. I'm not here to be like, no, I swear to God, this is. No, dude, please lay it on me. And I'm gonna receive it and. And use it to the best of my ability. So.
- [18:27]
A
So something that I've observed is that there's a really, really powerful thing that happens in the house when somebody becomes an outcast where it infects every interaction you have, and especially if you don't know it. Right. And so we saw this a lot with Taylor when she was in the game. She's the most extreme possible example where, like, every thing she said, every interaction she had was interpreted to be in the worst possible way. And. And every relationship she tried to build was not on equal footing. It was not on equal ground. Anytime she built a relationship with somebody, it was like, oh, well, we are daining to. To allow you into our circle. We have bestowed upon you this grace. And so if you slip up, if you disappoint us in any way, then how dare you? Because we let you in. We did you a favor by talking to you, by letting you in this circle. As opposed to, like, the power of, say, a first hoh. It's the other way around. The first hoh is like, hey, I'm bringing you in. I'm keeping you safe. And so, you know, that sort of, like, that situation is very difficult to get yourself out of. Taylor was able to very quickly recognized where she was. And, of course, over the course of her season. Like, really? I don't remember if you said you watched 24, but I didn't. But I.
- [20:07]
B
But I've seen, like, the highlights and stuff.
- [20:09]
A
Yeah. Yes. It's a very useful one for, like, not that the. The show itself, like, fully showcases it, but, like, I mean, Ashley's a fairly good example as well of somebody who was able to, because she also had some trouble in the early portion of the season being respected. And so, you know, what you saw with Ashley was that, like, anytime she got caught doing something, it was way worse than anytime anybody else got caught doing something. She gets a reputation for being, like, a loudmouth, you know, somebody who says too much because she can't trust as many people to hold her secrets. Right. Like, other people were saying just as much. It's just that, like, they had more allies and they had more social standing, and therefore they didn't get labeled as somebody who was spreading around too much information because it didn't matter as much for them. So. So I guess, like, all of that to say that, like, I'm. I. I think probably the bonds that you made were genuine initially, but then as your social standing started to drop, the willingness to, like, hold on to that probably diminished. And it was like, well, am I going to risk my own social standing by going down with the ship, or am I going to just let him go? And especially early on in the season when it's like, I just met the guy, like, I imagine that's part of it, but I can't speak to these specific examples because the feeds weren't on, unfortunately. But. But that definitely was the case later on in the season. There was a lot of. A lot of, like, motivation for some of these early votes, like the Adrian vote. The Adrian nomination itself was like, hey, do we want to be associated with, like, the Outcasts, the Kelly's and the Keanu's? Do we want to be in that group, or do we want to be in the group that has, like, more people, the. The larger majority group, because there's something scary about having our own social standing fall. And so I think that really hurt you. And unfortunately, because you weren't able to, like, recognize that position, it was really difficult for you to climb out of it because you stayed in your. Your bubble, which was very easy for people to, like, just keep you there. Does that make sense?
- [22:40]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a huge part of it, too, that I was kind of like, I'm okay in being in that position, like, with my Back against the wall and stuff like that. So I never felt, and this is probably something obviously, that I could work on in the future, but I never felt the need to try and necessarily dig myself out of that because I felt very confident in my ability to continue to win until I eventually got myself out of it. But I guess I needed more social skills or needed to understand, like you said, where I was and my position in the house in order to be able to even climb out of that hole to begin with, because I didn't feel like I started climbing out of that hole until I got, like, the little butler costume, and then I was forced to interact with people. I know you have someone else that's on the. That's on the podcast, too. I don't, I don't know his name, but he was saying that I was, like, dead wrong about, you know, feeling like my social game turned around when I got the butler costume. But that's really, like, the only. The opportunity that I needed to actually start conversing with people and start doing things that changed my social game to begin with. So that was kind of like my, My view on it was like, I'll get out of it eventually.
- [23:52]
A
Yeah. Well, the announcer had something to say about it. Keanu got an enormous ass.
- [24:01]
B
That's hilarious. Oh, my God, that's so funny that he does that actual sound, right?
- [24:10]
A
Oh, yeah, listen, the announcer has some fun, man.
- [24:14]
B
Oh, my God, that's so funny.
- [24:17]
A
Yeah. So the, the butler. The butler costume is interesting. It definitely was. I would say, too, that, like, that. That was probably when a lot of the. I don't recall exactly when the show, like, the episode watchers started to, like, really like you. I think it was probably around that time. I think the, The. There were live feeders that came around around that time as well, because you really, as you said, you took it like a champ and had fun with it funny enough. I think that people also started liking Vince Moore at the time because the egg costume was so funny.
- [25:00]
B
Oh, my God, dude. Him. Him running in that costume was hilarious.
- [25:04]
A
It was. Oh, man, they were. They were two very good ones. I mean, like, you know, I, I often complain a bit about, like, just how silly the show can be at times. It's very difficult to recommend the show to people when the first thing they see is, you know, a giant. But, but, but in terms of, like, in the world of the show, I thought those are two of the better costumes. I thought they were very fun. But. But, yeah, I, I, I don't disagree. I think that you did step up your social game at that point in the game. Again, I think the issue is that you ultimately just kept running into this brick wall that was like where people wanted to put you. And it's, it's so, like, it's so hard to climb out of that. The other thing that you had in going in your favor, of course, was that you won competitions, which is like the best superpower when it comes to breaking through those walls. And so I think we can sort of talk through that once we get there. But just to make sure we don't miss anything from the first week. Is there anything else from that week that you're interested in, like, examining?
- [26:32]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [26:33]
A
So.
- [26:34]
B
So I got flamed for this online. Like hardcore people were comparing me to Devin from season 16. But like the whole 10 person alliance, I can't even people. It was, yeah, like, people thought I was like legitimately trying to create a 10 person alliance. Like, I didn't just do that out of thin air and was like, hey guys, today's a great day to create an alliance. Like, the whole reason I even did that in the first place was because the perception in the house was basically, or at least from my. From my perception that the perception of the house was Jimmy and the girls versus Kelly and the guys. And. And then I believe Will also fell into the category of like the girls as well. So Jimmy and Will and the girls versus Kelly and the guys. And at the time I knew that Jimmy was really like coming after me specifically for whatever reason. That was when I found out he started, you know, me saying I was the one behind Shower Gate and all that bs and so he had him and Will and all the girls. So that's like eight or nine people. So I was trying to tell everyone in the house like, hey, look, there's. This is going on. Like we need to band together. And I believe I tried to just get, you know, the, the six people that I was working with, plus Ava and, and Lauren, I believe was kind of like in the middle there hadn't really chosen a side, but with Lauren came Katherine. So I kind of included them, you know. So I think people thought I was like just trying to create like this 10 person alliance, but in the core of that, like 10 person alliance, it was like a core six. And then within that core six was my, what I thought was my final three that I was staying true to no matter what, which was Riley and Vince. So I don't, I don't think that that's necessarily like the wrong move. I know that a 10 person alliance is probably way too big, but I made it very clear to like the core six that like, hey, Zay and Zay, Zach, Lauren and Kel and Catherine, they're kind of like hired guns. We just need them for numbers. But these are the six. And then, you know, I thought I made that very clear, but apparently not.
- [28:38]
A
Well, I mean, it's. It's again, a thing where like in a vacuum, it's not, it's not a bad setup. Right? Like, it doesn't, it's not like, you know, that is the bomb squad structure that the Derek eventually, you know, ran to the end with the detonators. But. But then like when you are the person that, that everyone's like, oh, no, it's. That's. That's Keanu. Then it becomes like, oh, well, he's. He's delusional. Like, what is he talking about? A ten person alliance. So, so that I think again, that's like, that is the, the biggest difficulty. And, and that's where I do feel like, like the fact that you are sort of searching for like a way to improve your game. Like, I really do think that you have a lot of the sort of game level strategic stuff like already, which was like, not something that we saw from a lot of people this season, but. And it really was just like where you were in social standing. And I'll tell you this too, like, the fact that you've now gone through a season and one America's favorite, if you were to return or even go to another show, I think this stuff will be easier without even doing anything because now you have a reputation and you are like, liked by the audience. And if you came on to a Big Brother season, you'll. You probably have a fan on the cast, you know, like, you, like, you'll probably have an easier time of it just baseline. But, but I, but I think it is still obviously pretty valuable to, to walk through some things and. Okay, so after the veto ceremony, this was a big thing that happened. Jimmy calls you out. This was funny. Even Rachel, who did want to work with you, was like, oh, yeah, Jimmy, yeah, do it. No blood on my hands. Yeah. Jimmy calls you out and you ask Vince afterward, afterward, because you're like. Because Vince had been the one to tell you when Rachel warned you about, about what was happening. Like, hey, it's not me. It's. It's Jimmy. Jimmy's doing everything. And then you went out, you went and asked him like, hey, is. So Jimmy was Doing this stuff, right? And at that point, Vince was like, I. I don't want to get in trouble. Like, I might have misunderstood. Like, I don't know. It's. I'm not sure. And that kind of opens the door for Jimmy to be like, hey, this is all a big misunderstanding. And. And so what was your sort of experience of that?
- [31:36]
B
Okay, so remember Vince, Riley, the thing that I stayed most loyal to because that was like, the only alliance that I thought that I had up until Riley went home.
- [31:45]
A
Right.
- [31:46]
B
So Vince tells me, you know, whatever it is that he tells me, I can't even remember now, but I was like, okay, well, if this is one big misunderstanding, that I'm just going to go to Jimmy and apologize and then we'll. We'll be good to go. So I go, you know, I go to him outside and, you know, we have our conversation. Obviously, they didn't air all of that on in the edit, but I imagine the live feeds were on for that.
- [32:08]
A
We actually missed a good portion of it because the feeds came back afterward.
- [32:13]
B
Okay, well, basically, the premise of that whole conversation was like, hey, listen, I have been misinformed. I want to apologize to you. I don't want you to think this or that, you know, And. And then the end of that conversation was basically like, hey, if I win, hoh, you're not going up. If you win, hoh, I'm not going up. Great. We hugged it out. Everything was great. And. And I. And I believed him too, because my. My goal at that point was to find whoever it was that was like, dragging my name through the mud. Like, that was for the whole first. Until I think, until Mickey went home. My whole goal the entire time until Mickey went home was find the person who's dragging my name through the mud and send them home. That was all I wanted. And I didn't. And I didn't care. Like, people thought I was crazy. Obviously I didn't realize it was Jimmy at the time because I'm naive. And I was just like, oh, yeah, he told me it's not him. Cool, it's not him. But people thought I was crazy for not targeting Jimmy because he was going to target me anyway. And I was like, listen, I don't care. I want whoever's targeting whoever's bringing my name through the mud. That's who I want to go home. So that's what I was on. And we didn't figure that out definitively until I won the memory bridge veto and I talked to Mickey and Morgan upstairs, and we Kind of, like, pinpointed that it was Jimmy, and that's something they didn't show in the edit either. Was that, like, that was when we first initially realized that it was Jimmy who was doing all that stuff?
- [33:37]
A
That was a very interesting conversation because. Well, I guess first, what I want to say is that, like, I. I think that instinct is. Is actually pretty good. I think that, again, the thing you talked about in terms of, like, the emotional quotient, in terms of, like, really being able to withstand an onslaught and. And turn the other cheek, so to speak. Very much Dan Geesling's mantra as well, where, like, being able to reconcile with Jimmy makes a lot of sense. Telling him something like, like, oh, it's a misunderstanding. Everything's fine, even if neither of you believe it. Just, like, leaving the door open is always a good thing. For the most part. I think, like, the. What did end up happening a lot was that because you were such a presence in the game, winning competitions, a lot of, like, the targeting and fears of things that were happening in the game happened because of you, but in sort of inadvertent ways. So what I mean by that is every time you talked about, like, being cool with Jimmy, that actually made people skeptical of Jimmy because they were like, well, if Jimmy's cool with Keanu, that's bad for us. We want Keanu going after Jimmy. Like, who's got. Who's Keanu gonna go after if he's not going after Jimmy? And it was the same thing with, like, Rachel, where, like, people loved it when they thought you were going after Rachel, but then when you were like, hey, me and Rachel are actually good. They were like, oh, shit. Like, what? Who's gonna go after then? That's bad for us. So I. This is something that I talked about a few years ago, actually. Oh, God. Many years ago, that, like, in Big Brother specifically, it can actually be beneficial to have, like, an open enem, meaning, like, you are disarmed in the eyes of a lot of the other players if they think, well, anytime Keanu wins, he's going after Jimmy 1000%. That means I don't have to worry about Keanu because he's going after Jimmy, and Jimmy's going after. I love this. For us, let's target somebody else who. We don't know who they're going after. And there's a player on Big Brother, Canada, Godfrey Manguiza, who very famously stood up. Actually, there was a Zach that season as well. And he said, zach, I want your blood on these hands. And then Immediately after, went to Zach and was like, that was just for show, man. Like, we're totally chill. And it worked. It worked great because people are like, well, anytime Godfrey wins, he's going after Zach. But secretly, he had sort of, like, been like, hey, we're actually chill. And again, whether or not Zach believed that is another story. But, you know, there. There's something there. And I think the. The danger for you came because you, I would say, told a bunch of people, you told people you thought you could trust that you were actually chill with Jimmy, and then they immediately spread that around, which, you know, I think we'll. We'll come back to again and again is, like, similar with Ashley. Like, the reason you got in trouble for things wasn't always because you were doing the wrong thing, but that you were trusting the wrong people.
- [36:58]
B
Right.
- [36:59]
A
And ultimately, there weren't many people you could actually trust. So that's pretty tough one.
- [37:03]
B
Yeah. If any. If any. Yeah, I know at certain points I could, but damn. Throughout the. Like, even just watching the first, like, five or six episodes, I'm like, damn, dude. I totally, at this point, thought I could trust him 100, and I totally couldn't.
- [37:18]
A
Yeah, so you do have. This is. This is when you started to really frustrate me at times, because you had. I don't know if you've. I think one of them made an episode. You're. One of your conversations with Rachel, but you had, I think, three of them where Rachel is trying to tell you facts.
- [37:42]
B
Oh, God. Yeah, I know.
- [37:43]
A
It's like, hey, Vince was trying to, you know, maybe put you up. Hey, Jimmy was doing this stuff. Hey, you can't just say you can't dress Zach. And. And these were true statements. Now, what I will say is they were definitely. They were true statements in the hopes that she could win you over and get your vote and work with you. Like, there was an agenda there, and you saw the agenda, but you didn't believe the facts. And so your part of the conversation was often like this very. I would say. I would say fairly dismissive, kind of like, rachel, Rachel, come on.
- [38:26]
B
Yeah.
- [38:27]
A
And she could tell that you were not believing a word she said and not trusting her. And she'd be like, keanu, I'm telling you that.
- [38:35]
B
Like, why aren't you?
- [38:36]
A
And you'd be like, what do you mean, I believe you. Yeah, fine. And then the conversation was. Sorry, the conversation would end, and you'd be like. Like, I would believe anything she'd say. She'd say. And then she Would leave the conversation be like, oh, my God, this guy.
- [38:53]
B
Yeah, I know. See, a lot. A lot of that was predicated on the fact that I just like the people that I trusted 100% at the time. Obviously, I couldn't, but they would always be telling me, like, hey, listen, you can't trust Rachel for XYZ reason. And, like, there was always a part of me that was conflicted, that was, like, I felt like I could trust her because of, like, that moment that, you know, we had where she had me open up. And so I felt like I could trust her. But then I was also very conflicted because of these other people that I trusted 100% were telling me that I couldn't trust her. So then I'd always be kind of like, okay, so I believe that she believes what she's saying, but these other people that I trust more than her right now are telling me otherwise. So that's what I am choosing to believe. So it was hard. It wasn't always, like, I didn't believe that she was saying. The reason I could never get mad at Rachel or anything like that is because at the end of the day, I always believed that she believed what she was.
- [39:52]
A
Yeah.
- [39:53]
B
You know what I mean? So it was like, I could never get mad at her because, like, why would I? If she's trying to help me out, I can't get mad at her for that. You know what I mean?
- [39:59]
A
The only.
- [40:00]
B
The only thing was that she was actually telling me the truth and everybody else was telling me lies.
- [40:05]
A
Yeah. You know, that is also something that happens a lot. I would say that. Well, there's. There's two things there. One is that, like, I mean, similar to what people did to you, it's a tactic that will often be used, whether it's maliciously or as part of, like, let's bond to the alliance together. Of, like, don't trust these other people. Or, like, hey, this is a particular person. You shouldn't trust any information that comes from them. And. And. And I would say, like, most of the time, that's not true. Most of the time, like, any information is still valuable that you should take in. And, like, consider at the very least, because that's, like, the same thing they were doing to Rachel, they. To you. And anytime you were talking to people, they were like, well, we've been told we can't trust Keanu. We can't believe a single thing he says. And meanwhile, you were giving them, you know, maybe not accurate, maybe information that you believe to be true. But. But if a person believes it to be true, it still can be valuable. And I think a lot of times players in the game will. Will be like, well, I don't have to listen to this thing that this person is saying because they don't know what I do, which makes their information invalid. And again, it's like, well, they don't know the secret. Like, for instance, later on in the season, when the judges exist, anytime you're talking to somebody, they're thinking in their minds, like, well, you think. You think this, but you don't know about the judges, therefore, you're wrong. And. And you won't know it until later. And. And while that can again be valid, like, it's also important to recognize that, like, that perspective will persist in them most of the time. Like. Like, for instance, if Vince is thinking that with you, it's not, like, when you come out of the game, you're gonna be like, oh, the judges exist, therefore, everything Vince did was valid. You know, like, it's not always so black and white. And I think that, like, listening to the information can always be very valuable because, you know, everybody's perspective in the game matters. And. And I think players really want to try to devalue perspectives as much as possible. And. And I think you need to, like, play into that to some degree. But it's always worth, I would say, like, listening and. And taking in what the other people think. I think that really, like, what I would say is, even if you had been correct about Vince and Riley and, like, the situation that you were in there, your game was still, I would say, like, too loyal. You were giving them so much, and they were giving you very little back. And so even if you had run to the end with them, they probably would have been in a better position to win than you would have been. Which is not to say that you shouldn't be loyal, especially on a public podcast, but, like, make sure you're playing your own game, I would say, is a huge part of this. Like, don't give everything up to. To your allies. Like, it's okay to take. Take in some information and, like, kind of hold it. I would say, for the most part.
- [43:21]
B
Yeah. You know, I think something that. That really stuck with me, or I kind of, I guess, romanticized, because it was literally the last season I saw before I came in here was season 20, watching Casey and Tyler work together. I was like, I feel like that is something that I really romanticized. And when I had, you know, something that people won't have seen on the live feeds because it happened so early on was I had kind of, like, that same emotional moment that I had with Rachel I also had with Vince. And that's what really. Like, what really coupled me with him, at least in my brain, was like, okay, well, you know, we had that emotional moment. I don't really open up to people, so that meant something to me. And so in my. In my brain, I was like the Casey to his. You know what I mean? Like that. And I really romanticize that. So, like, to me, Vinnie was like, the dude I was gonna ride out to the end with, and, like, that wasn't gonna change. No matter what, I don't care if we don't spend a minute of time together throughout the day, we'll catch up in the last, like, 15 minutes of the day. And that was enough to. To take me to the next day. Yeah.
- [44:23]
A
Did you watch season three? That's pretty far back.
- [44:26]
B
No, I haven't seen that one.
- [44:27]
A
No. Famously, Danielle and Jason Daniel Reyes. Jason guy made the first secret alliance, and the two of them linked up early and then exchanged information over, like, a game of cards every night to, like, you know, debrief. And they were not necessarily on, like, opposite sides of the house, but they were in, like, different pockets with different, like, people that they were aligned with, and they sort of. They really, like, trailblazed in terms of Big Brother strategy. And a lot of people come into the game, whether or not they even know about Jason and Danielle, wanting to replicate what they did because it's such a cool idea, and it's something that, like, is very appealing. And the reason why most of them fail is that they don't actually form a tight enough bond before they separate. So, like, like, you meet somebody, maybe you hang out with them for a few days, and then you're like, hey, this is such a great idea. We should, like, separate on different sides. Or, like, we should, like, you know, act like we're not super close, and then we'll exchange information. But then over time, they end up that people they hang out with are the people they end up actually bonding with, and then the facade becomes a reality most of the time, and you don't actually end up working as closely together. It's so, you know, it's. It's. It's a thing that often happens. And I would say that the people that do manage to do it. Dan and Memphis in season 10 secret renegade alliance, they didn't make that until halfway through the game when they had already really spent a Lot of time, like, bonding. And then were able to separate Derek and Cody in 16. Did form a bond really early. However, Derek made sure to include Cody in all of his alliances so that they could still spend a lot of time bonding, and then did the separation thing, like, on a. In a more subtle way. So that's. That's a huge, huge part of it, especially because in. In an instance like yours, it's, like, very easy for Vince to agree to something like that because, you know, if it's like, well, people are targeting you, so I'm very happy to pretend to be disassociated with you, because I might actually need to be disassociated. Right, Right.
- [46:54]
B
Yeah, that's the. That's the problem. I kept, like, when I look back on it, it's kind of like the problem that I feel like I kept running into was like, you know, I felt great with Kelly, but, like, you know, to my face, she'd be like, oh, yeah, I love hanging out with you. Whatever. And then, like, three minutes later, she's like, all right, well, we've been talking too long, so I need to leave. And I'm like, oh, okay, yeah.
- [47:13]
A
And then.
- [47:13]
B
And then behind my back, she's like, yeah, we need to get that guy out. Fuck that guy.
- [47:17]
A
There's the last season of Big Brother, Canada, before it got canceled. Anthony Douglas and Spicy V. They were two vets that came into a house of new players, and they were secretly working together. But Spicy V would often sort of conspire against Anthony. He'd hear about it and be like, dude, I know we're supposed to not be working together, but you need to stick up for me. Like, we need to keep bolstering each other's positions in the game. You know, like, that's the important part of this. That did not end well for the two of them.
- [47:53]
B
That's something that. That Rachel and I experienced as well, where I was trying to, like, figure out how to navigate us working together closely but being on opposite sides of the house. And I remember that was a conversation we had in the storage room. I don't know if that, you know, made it into the live feeds or not, but, yeah, I remember that one where I. Yeah. Where I was, like, talking to Morgan, I think, or something like that. And I was like, yeah, Rachel, we can't have her in the jury. She's too emotional. But, like, secretly, I was like, yeah, we. You know, we want her in there. And then I told Rachel. I was like, yeah, I told her we weren't working together, so it's all good. We don't want you in the jury. And she was like, what?
- [48:29]
A
Yeah.
- [48:30]
B
She's like, you don't do that. You need to bolster our position. I was like, okay, that makes sense.
- [48:35]
A
Well, it makes sense that you wouldn't have come at it from that angle because you'd spent at that point that was probably in the 40s, probably in terms of days.
- [48:47]
B
Yeah, yeah, it was. It was the week that. That Ava was hoh.
- [48:53]
A
Right. Because she had just told you about the. The heavy hitters at that point. Right. And you had asked Vince about it, and she was like, why? Because that did get her in a lot of trouble. Immediately told Mickey.
- [49:07]
B
Man, I was. See, I like. To a fault. I trusted that guy to a fault. Oh, my God. I would have literally just told him everything because I was like, yo, that's. That's my guy.
- [49:18]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [49:19]
B
That's where I met. That's where I really feel like I messed up. Was like, I really trusted the wrong person.
- [49:25]
A
Yep. Yeah, there's a. There's a rough one. So ultimately, Zay leaves this week. And again, this was interesting because, like, the sides of the house, like, typically there's more of a structure in the game that develops in the first couple of weeks. And I. I would say personally, that the reason a structure doesn't develop this season is because of Vince primarily. He was the first hoh, and, you know, him and Jimmy and Morgan really like the power players of the house. Mickey, too, but she wasn't included in the heavy hitters at first, although she was told about it by Jimmy, and so they really should have been, like, forming stuff. But the problem is that Morgan had her own separate agenda and Jimmy had his own separate agenda. So they were, like, really clashing a lot. And Vince is not the kind of player that, like, actively creates structure. He is a very reactive player and, you know, just wants to be good with as many people as possible. So because he was playing so passively, structures couldn't build around him because he was just, like, kind of, like, hopping around. So instead, Jimmy wins the second h. Second hoh.
- [50:51]
B
And.
- [50:52]
A
And. And again, the. The structure should have solidified from here. Jimmy should have been able to really lock in the heavy hitters. The problem is some of these powers, you know, should have been such an easy week. You or Kelly for sure, leave this week, except both of you end up safe.
- [51:15]
B
Yeah, that's interesting. I thought it was pretty funny how that. That shook out, and I really was. I was really wanting to be able to, because of my power and stuff, be able to like, bring. Bring some people in and, and really solidify the five or six people that I really wanted to work with. But it became more of just like, hey, let's flush those things out.
- [51:37]
A
So, yeah, I mean. I mean, they. He would have nominated you regardless, obviously. It was just like he wanted to, I think, smartly solidify his power structure. And you and Kelly were very easy, sort of like house targets. And so the fact that both of you ended up being safe was really bad luck for him. And. And this is where he screwed up. He. He. He still held on to this idea that he wanted to do something easy. And in his mind, that was Will and Amy and. And that really pissed off Morgan and Mickey because they wanted him to do Riley. So funny, I guess, story for Riley. He was in the. The original heavy hitters was originally the sixth member, but anytime they tried to, like, get him with a group, he'd be like, why do we need to. Why don't we talk in a group? I don't. I'll just tell you right now how I feel. And that really pissed Zach off. He was like, why is this guy in our alliance if he doesn't never want to talk to us? And so they ended up kicking him out of the alliance and just. Just excluding him and then remade the heavy hitters later with Mickey instead of him. And so they ended up starting to feel like, okay, we can't get Keanu, we can't get Kelly. We don't like this budding Catherine Riley thing. Why don't we just target Riley? We'll just take him out of the game. He's going to be a physical threat. It makes a ton of sense. The problem was that Jimmy felt like he was really good with Catherine, and, you know, Morgan and Mickey did not like Catherine that much. And so this, like, conflict started happening where Jimmy was hanging out a lot with Lauren and Catherine and they were like, yeah, we're with you. And then Mickey and Morgan were pushing, like, dude, Riley, Riley, Catherine, at least somebody. And he was like, I think, you know, I think Amy and Will. I think Will is upon Amy as a target, potentially. Amy wasn't initially a target, but. But, like, Amy had been caught saying Jimmy's name the week before and they had made up. But, like, that was still on his mind. And I'm sure also on his mind was like, it weakens Rachel a little bit, which makes her easier to work with.
- [54:04]
B
Right.
- [54:05]
A
And so really, really pissed off Mickey And Morgan, and they were already at that in that week saying, we want to remake an alliance without Jimmy. Now we want him gone. And in the meantime, I think you'll see this in the episode, Jimmy felt like he still had a working relationship with you in the sense that, like, he just nominated you, but now you're safe, and now he needs to try and, you know, get you to be as not mad at him as possible.
- [54:35]
B
Right, right.
- [54:36]
A
And so he has this conversation with you where you want Will on the block, and we'll talk about why. And. And he wants you to think that you are convincing him to put up well, even though he already wanted to, so that you feel like you've convinced him and that you made, like, a deal.
- [54:53]
B
He told me that's what he wanted. And I was just trying to, like, solidify that that's what he was going to do, because the alternate. The alternative was, I believe, Adrian or something or. Or somebody.
- [55:03]
A
Adrian was already.
- [55:04]
B
I can't remember who it was. The. All I wanted was to make sure that somebody that I felt like I was really good with and working with was not going to be on the block. So. So really, my. What I wanted there was just to solidify that it was Will on the block. And he thought. I found out later that he thought I was gonna go run my mouth and say that it was like, my. That I did that and stuff like that. It's like, I know that I didn't do that. I just solidified it. You already told me you wanted to do that.
- [55:29]
A
Well, because I do. I do remember you talking to. Let's see. I think it was Kelly afterward about this and feeling like, hey, I think, you know, I think I've got him to be looking at Will. And then I also remember that you had said at one point that because Jimmy never told anybody your involvement, it made you feel like, oh, like maybe I can trust Jimmy. Maybe I did make an impact there.
- [55:56]
B
Oh, yeah. Well, one. Yeah. 100. The fact that he didn't tell anybody, you know, that I wanted Will to be up there, or at least I.
- [56:02]
A
Thought he didn't, unfortunately, actually did.
- [56:05]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I found out later that he did. But. But, yeah, I thought. I thought he and I were. Were. You know, I was able to at least have an ally outside of the people that I actually wanted to work with.
- [56:20]
A
So talk to me about the Will situation, because it was very confusing for us at first. We eventually saw in the episode a bit of the origin of this, but. But basically in the attempt at getting Zay the votes to stay. There were multiple alliances made. One was the Bond, which I believe made the episodes, and then the other. Oh, the Burger Boys definitely made the episodes. They were both just like, fake alliances, basically, and attempts to get votes to get Zay to stay, which didn't work anyway. But it did work on Will, the Burger Boys, and he votes for Zay to stay. Riley votes for Zay to go, because that's what Catherine wants. And there's a whole bunch of confusion because Riley is telling you that he voted for Zeta stay. He's telling the other people that he voted for. For Zeta Go. Meanwhile, Will is telling you that he voted for Zay to stay.
- [57:17]
B
Yeah.
- [57:18]
A
And. And telling other people that he voted for Zeta go. And so you end up thinking that Will is lying to you and not Riley. And then eventually, I believe you were also then trying to claim Will's vote, saying, if Will lied, then I was that vote to keep. Amy. Amy.
- [57:38]
B
Get move. Move. Sorry, my dog's going crazy because they're blowing leaf blowers out here. So what happened there was. Okay, so, remember, I thought Vince and Riley. Ride or die. Riley would not lie to me. Right. So I figured Will was lying to me. And what I was trying to do was in order to be able to convince Jimmy to actually put Will up, I was trying to paint him as a liar. So. Which I actually thought he was because I thought he was lying to me. So I wasn't telling Jimmy anything that I believed to be false. I thought Will was actually lying to me. So I was trying to tell him, like, hey, Will told me that he voted for Zay to stay, and he's telling you guys otherwise. And so that should be more than enough reason to actually want him on the block. And I thought that was the reason why he ended up, like, solidifying Will going on the block.
- [58:36]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, ultimately, they. Because Will had admitted his vote, they were just like, well, we already know where Will voted. Like, Will's vote is already accounted for. And it was part of why he went up. I think his vote. He did. He did screw up voting in that way. But same same thing for Adrian, who had just sort of said, like, this is how I'm voting, and it's not with the majority. They're like, well, we can't work with Adrian, so. So ultimately, this ends with Amy's eviction, of course. Is there anything else from week two that you wanted to bring up?
- [59:19]
B
No, I don't think. Unless there was anything, you know, pertaining to me specifically. That. That was, like, big that week.
- [59:26]
A
Yeah, most of the drama was. I mean, that became relevant to you was this Mickey Morgan stuff. Because it eventually comes back around once Mickey is hoh. Of course. We'll right there. So Lauren wins the week three hoh and she actually initially wants to nominate Will, who she's never talked to, even though she's in an alliance with you and Ashley. And Kelly, being a potential person who might volunteer, actually turns her away from Ashley as an initial nom because. Wow. He's volunteering.
- [60:04]
B
Wow.
- [60:05]
A
Wow. It was actually. It was. It was Vince's suggestion, even though, like, in Vince's. Vince's perfect world would have been actually evicted this week, but it was him that suggested, like, well, hey, you know, if you're worried about any of these nominees, like, Kelly might volunteer. And then Kelly did volunteer, and then all kinds of drama. Not super relevant to you, but all kinds of drama. Last minute before her nomination, because she almost doesn't nominate Will and almost nominates Adrian, almost nominates Ashley and is a very funny moment. She's, like, talking to a bunch of people in the wine room. She, like, walks out of the wine room like she's on the Walking Dead, and she's like, what? What do I do? What do I do?
- [60:53]
B
Oh, my God.
- [60:57]
A
So I. So then, yeah, they. She makes her nominations. And so this is when you really start to. Because with Amy gone, this is sort of my perspective on how you saw it. It felt like you were like, oh, Rachel's not that powerful right now. At least she lost Amy. She couldn't win that vote. Especially in your mind, like, you had all these people that were connected to each other in some way or another, and they were all telling you, like, Rachel was not trustworthy. Rachel was on the bottom to some degree. And so you, again, I would say correctly, and given that information, think, well, if these people are not connected, they're not powerful, then I should be reaching out to them. I should be, like, developing some kind of connection with them, especially if I already have a connection with Rachel. And so with Rachel and with Jimmy, you start to sort of try to develop some kind of, like, under the radar bond. And so, of course, what was interesting about that is that it was actually the reverse, right? Like, they were actually in the power. Closer to the power positions. Both of them did have their own difficulties within the power structure, but their connection to you from Jimmy's perspective was just keeping him safe from Rachel's perspective was exactly what you were trying to do with Rachel. And so your Conversations, again, were very funny.
- [62:23]
B
Wow. Wow. So wait, what were the conversations that we were having that were kind of like the opposite it.
- [62:35]
A
So, I mean, toward the end of this week, of course, when you. You have a conversation with. With both her and Jimmy separately, where you're trying to be like, hey, get in on the majority here. The majority's voting to keep.
- [62:48]
B
Oh, that's right. That's right. When I was trying to get Adrian safe.
- [62:51]
A
Right, right. And so. Because I thought.
- [62:54]
B
Yeah, because I thought they were kind of like, from my perspective, they were both kind of like right in the middle there.
- [62:59]
A
Right.
- [63:00]
B
Yeah, that's right. I remember.
- [63:01]
A
Yeah. Like, hey, you know, get on. Get on the side that we're on while it's. Well, the going's good, you know, and they were like.
- [63:08]
B
I think I even made a comment about throwing Rachel a life vest or something.
- [63:11]
A
Yeah. And we are. Rachel was like, keanu, I don't think you have the votes. You were like, rachel.
- [63:18]
B
Yeah. Well, hey, to be fair, you know, I mean, as far as I know, I'm not 100% sure, but as far as I know, Vinnie and Zach flipping at the last. Was the last second thing, so at least we could have made it a tie. So I felt like all we needed was Rachel or Jimmy, not even both.
- [63:35]
A
Yeah, that is. There is very fair, because I would say Rachel's confidence in the votes was unwarranted. It was actually a lot closer than she thought. It was just that I really. Both of your confidence, Jim, Vinnie, and Zach were really all over the place.
- [63:54]
B
This is good. I didn't realize how long we're gonna be doing this for.
- [63:56]
A
Listen, however, like, the. The pace you want to go, we can. We can always sort of speed up or.
- [64:05]
B
No, dude, I'm having. I'm having a great time breaking down week by week, like, so I'm here for it.
- [64:10]
A
Cool. Okay. So when. How. How many episodes did you get to. In terms of, like.
- [64:21]
B
I've got it. For no particular reason. The last episode I saw was. I believe you have a prompt.
- [64:27]
A
Okay. So you. So that means you still was. That was that. That was.
- [64:32]
B
That was Mickey's hoh.
- [64:34]
A
Mickey's hoh. Okay, so you've still seen these episodes. I don't remember how much they showed of the Zach and Vinnie teeter totter, but, yeah, that's why.
- [64:46]
B
That's what I was saying. To my knowledge, it was actually, you know, a last second thing, as far as I know.
- [64:54]
A
Is that coming from what they told you? Because they did lie.
- [64:57]
B
Yeah, that that's coming from what they. What. From what they told me.
- [65:01]
A
All right, so. So this will be interesting, I guess. So, first of all, of course, the getting Adrian up on the block in the first place was quite the coup. He never should have been on the block. Okay, wow. Wild. You know, Lauren didn't want him on the block. Vinnie and Zach, neither of them wanted him on the block. But it was a very effective push from Ashley, from Mickey, Morgan, Jimmy. They all went up one after another, really putting the fear of God into Lauren about, like, hey, you know, you wouldn't want to be on Keanu side, would you? And that was the big thing, too, is that, like, she had talked to you and you had offered to even take the blame for the nomination, but then that sort of backfired because then she was like, well, I don't want Keanu taking credit for, like, what I'm doing. I don't want to be associated with. I don't want to be on that side. And so. So she really was worried about being lumped in with, you know, the outcasts, so to speak, And. And. And being on the wrong side of things. And so she felt like the way to keep everyone happy was to. To put Adrian up instead of Ashley. And. And this is where, like, you know, I talk about the strength of those things, you know, the outcast status or the social hierarchy. Like, if she had stopped to think about it for, like, you know, two seconds, she could have realized that, like, if she and Vinnie and Zach had just joined your side, none of you would. The other side would have been the outcasts at that point. Right, right. That's.
- [66:48]
B
That's what I was trying to get everyone to see. It was like, yo, like, we got more. Like, even if we didn't have the numbers per se, at that time, we had a much more diverse group of people that I felt like we could have won, like, any hoh in any veto. So that's what I was trying to get everyone to see was like, guys, like, we might not have the numbers right now. We might not be the cool kids, but we are, like, much more diverse, and we have the ability to win on any given week. Like, why is it? Why aren't we doing this? And I think just my. From what I'm understanding is my social standing was literally, like, in the negatives, that people were more scared to join me, even if it meant being a part of a stronger group.
- [67:29]
A
Yep, that's exactly what it was. That basically, I would say, you know, obviously, there's so many things that factor into each decision and so many people that you might want to credit. Mickey was a huge force in terms of driving the Adrian nomination. Ashley did a really great job of, like, scaring Vince into submission. Being like, vince, I know you have a lot of influence over Lauren, so if I don't go up, you know, I'm going to really thank you. And he was like, well, that's. That's a lot of pressure. And then he later told Morgan, like, so that means that if she does that, if she does go up, that I'm going to be the one she blames. And. And so I was losing my mind that week at Vince and Zach because I was like, Lauren's. Lauren at this point is just like, please tell me what to do. I'm. I can't decide. I'm not sure. And I'm just like, vince, Zach, just tell her to put up Ashley. Just be like, this is what we have to do. And they just wouldn't do it until the very last minute when it was, like, far too late. So. So all of this is happening, and then Adrian goes up on the block. And Adrian, I will also say, I would say, fell victim to the same thing where, like, Adrian was telling people he was going to target you. He was even telling the cameras he was going to target you, even though you were one of his only allies at that point. It wasn't until toward the end of the week that he was like, maybe I shouldn't be targeting Keanu. Maybe that's not a smart thing to do for me.
- [69:02]
B
But, yeah, that made me really upset when he pulled me into the back room saying, like, hey, man, I have your vote, right? I was like, brother, yes, I've been advocating for you all week. What's going on here?
- [69:13]
A
That was why he fell into. He. Everyone's telling him, you can't trust Keanu. And he was like, I can't trust Keanu. He also hates liars. I don't know if you've heard. So. So with Adrian on the block, same pressure applied. It was like, you can get. You can keep Adrian against Will, but if you do that, you'll piss off all these people that you just, you know, capitulated to in the first place. So the idea is like, well, why would we lose all the social standing we just garnered by putting Adrian up in the first place? By keeping him, we should have just not put him on the block in the first place, Which.
- [69:56]
B
Right.
- [69:56]
A
Yeah, you should. You should have. But it was still, like, building momentum Lauren really wanted to do it. Lauren wanted to break the tie and keep Adrian. By the. By the night before the vote, she was like, guys, I'm ready. Let's do it. Morning of, she was like, let's do it. And it was actually Vinnie and Zach that held her back because they really wanted to not make it a tie. They still had strong connections to players, specifically Morgan on the other side that they wouldn't want to piss off. And so they were trying to get more. They didn't want to be a tie. They wanted to get more votes. So they tried with Rachel and Jimmy. You tried with Rachel and Jimmy. Didn't work. They tried a little. They tested the waters, just very dip their toes in with Morgan, and didn't work. So then they were like, what about Ava? What if we got Ava's vote? And so they went to Ava, and they made a hard, hard push. Push to get Ava to flip her vote with them. And then if Ava had gone with them, they would have done it, but it was actually Ava that was like, frankly, guys, I don't. I don't think that's a smart idea. Do you. Do you really want to be on the side with Keanu? Frankly, I think that's not very smart. And. And Zach was like, oh, my God. It's not very smart. And. And seemingly, Ava completely just has them backing off on the idea entirely. And so while Lauren is like, I'm ready to do it, they say, I don't think we should. And so that was basically the night before. They had been convinced not to do it. And then the morning of, they. They locked it in. We're not doing it. And then, so, of course, right afterward, Vinnie basically blames Zach for it. Yeah.
- [71:45]
B
Yeah. Oh, well, hey, listen, man, I was. I. You know, I. In that moment when I was speaking to him, it felt like a very human thing. You know, he's called himself a spineless weasel and all those things, and, yeah, man, I just felt. I felt for him. You know, he felt like he didn't want to be on the wrong side of the vote, and with the way he made it sound to me was that he fell victim to a very human emotion. And I was like, dude, all right, don't worry about it. You know?
- [72:10]
A
Don't worry about it.
- [72:11]
B
We'll get through this. All we got to do is win the next hoh. And that's just me being. Me being dumb again, you know, just choosing to believe him. And. And, yeah, I think that that'll forever go down as, like, my Biggest mistake was just riding with him from like, day two, literally, to day 77.
- [72:29]
A
Yeah, I, I would say at this, because this is the first big moment where you see from actions that, like, Vinnie did not do what he said he was going to do. That like, if he was on board, he should have been there. He's saying he screwed up, he's saying he made a mistake. And, and to your credit, you do look at him sideways from this point forward. But what I, I think the, the issue for you came in that despite the fact that you started looking at him sideways, it didn't actually change the way you interacted with him all that much. You still ended up telling him all of the information that you had, and you still ended up, like, giving him stuff that he would use then to bury you. And so it's really, I think at this point that, like, given the evidence that you had, it really was the time to be like, okay, I need to stop telling him things, because I don't know for sure that I can trust him.
- [73:25]
B
Yeah, I agree. No, I 100% agree. That was very dumb of me. But there's like a weird, overwhelming, like, feeling because, like, as a, as just on a human level, Vinnie actually reminds me of lot. And I, I commented at this on, I believe, one of your guys videos that he reminded me a lot of one of my actual brothers. And like, I would never abandon one of my brothers for making a human mistake and things like that. So that was, that was one of those more like human moments, not game moments where I was like, dude, I get it. Don't understand. I mean, I understand. Don't worry about it. It was a human moment you had. We'll get through this, you know, and it was one of those things where, like, I could never overcome that feeling of like, not wanting to abandon him. Even though it was just a game in those moments, for me, it was more of like a brotherhood thing, not a game. And I feel like he really capitalized on my kindness when it came to that. And that was why I made that speech about taking my kindness for weakness and stuff like that. And even in spite of saying that, I still was like, don't worry, bro. I love you, man. Don't worry.
- [74:35]
A
I mean, the thing is, like, to some degree, I. I think that is a, an admirable quality, like in real life, you know, like, you know, if he really was your brother and, and I think that, like, holding that or sort of like, like, if somebody comes to you and they say, I'm so sorry. I screwed up. I think it's fair to, again, similar to the Jimmy situation, be like, yeah, yeah, it's fine. It really is just like making sure you hold it in your back pocket.
- [75:09]
B
Yeah.
- [75:10]
A
And, and I would say in particular, and this can like, maybe bring this up a little bit, but like, I think it really played into sort of a, a perception that you had of your relationship with Vinnie and the relationship you had with, with, with Riley that like, I think that like, really fit into what you wanted, the kind of relationship you wanted to have with them rather than the relationship you actually had. That makes sense, right?
- [75:42]
B
Right. Yeah, no, 100%. Like I said, I really like, romanticized that whole, like, duo thing. And you know, I thought, I really thought I had that in both Vince and Riley. Like in my, in my brain. Dude, that was like ride or die 100. These dudes will never turn their back on me. And it's so funny. Like, it just makes me feel so dumb for like thinking that and then knowing what they were actually thinking in the background.
- [76:07]
A
Yeah. I believe the, the comment you, you left was when I was talking to Corey from season 25 and you know, sorry, Corey, but, but there's actually a little bit of a core correlation here. He had a somewhat similar situation where he wanted to create a Danielle and Jason esque relationship with a player, Mimi, that season. And he like, linked up with her early and was like, hey, we've got this secret relationship. And like the entire season she just didn't like him and like, never saw it. And so it is, it is, is it, it is a thing where, like, you can often have this desire to play one way or to like, have a certain kind of relationship. And then when you hear information or you see things that happen that contradict what you want, you'll find a way to be like, ah, it's, it's, it's okay. If, if it, if it went this way, then it could make sense, right? Like, like, if it was just this human moment and if it was just like this. And that's, I think, a really dangerous thing in the game for.
- [77:23]
B
Oh, 100. Yeah. Well, the fact that I kept doing that, like, it wasn't just that one time. It was like, it literally happened like three or four times. And I was like, dude, don't worry about it.
- [77:36]
A
And it's at this point too where like, Rachel's really trying to open everyone's eyes about Vince. She's working on Ava. She makes a final two with Ava and is like, hey, watch Vince and Ava Starts watching Vince, and Ava's like, wow, you're right. Like, he's everywhere. He's talking to Lauren a lot. And Ashley, too, has been talking about Vince for a while. She sees the Vince Morgan connection. She sees that Vince is talking to a lot of people, and Rachel's trying to, like, sound the alarm. Like, hey, Vince is like this kind of, like, mastermind esque Tyler character. And. And you keep, like, Vince. She thinks you're some kind of Mastermind Vince, who 100% in his mind is like, maybe I am. Is like, yeah.
- [78:26]
B
You know, it's funny because I feel like I spent so much time alone that, like, I would see him talking to the same people. So, like, was I aware that he was talking to Morgan, Zach, and Lauren a lot? Yeah. But I thought by extension, because he was good with the exception of Morgan, obviously. I was going after Morgan and Mickey because of the things Jimmy told me, but I thought, you know, I thought I was good with Zach. I thought I was good with Lauren, you know, so it never really, like, bothered me. And I never really saw him talking to a lot of other people. And I think that was mostly just because at that particular time, I was spending a lot of time alone because no one was spending time with me.
- [79:04]
A
Yeah.
- [79:05]
B
So, yeah, I was like, every time she told me, he was like, you know, this mastermind and stuff like that, I was like, vinnie, what?
- [79:15]
A
Something I think that players often should be looking out for. We talked about this a lot in season 19, when Paul really ran the house, was that Paul was everyone's intermediary. He. They go from like, one duo over here to another duo over here, and everyone would trust Paul to, like, interact with the people that they weren't close to for them. And. And they'd run back to. To. To these duos and be like, hey, this is how they're feeling about you. Don't worry. I'm working on them to make sure that they feel better, so on and so forth. And everyone's like, oh, Paul's looking out for me. And in the meantime, it just gave Paul all of the power. Right? Yeah. And I think that, like, once you experience what it's like to be working with people that you can actually trust that you are actually, like, in a good position with and in power with, it'll be, like, easier to spot when that's not happening, but because you never were in that position, like, you walked into the house and very quickly found yourself in the position where you were on the outs, like, there was nothing for you to compare it to. It was just like, well, I guess this is just how alliances work. And it's like, no, no, this shouldn't work that way. That's not how it should feel.
- [80:35]
B
Oh, my gosh. Wow.
- [80:37]
A
That's funny. So ultimately, Adrian is evicted. It's a blind side. And let's see here. I moved up on my. In my notes. So Riley wins the next hoh, and Vince immediately is throwing Zach right under the bus, which I did find amusing. I thought this was. It was actually, I would say one of Vince's more successful, like, active plays because he really, like, even though Kelly was pretty upset with him, and I mean, everyone was upset with him, but, like, he really was able to fully throw Zach under the bus, and Zach had no idea. And Zach fully, like, went with the company line, while Vince was able to be like, it's Zach's fault and ever. And then, you know, you and Riley and Catherine were like, screw Zach. And, you know, Vinnie, he really messed up, but screw Zach.
- [81:40]
B
Yeah, no, he definitely. He got us good on that one for sure.
- [81:46]
A
And so, in part because of this, in many ways, this all goes haywire. So. So you did see this in the episode. So, you know, Zach's sort of involvement here with the. The power. Mickey has this overthrow power. At this point, everyone knew about it. I. I believe even you had been in some conversations, but I don't think you had been in, like, the big ones. Because basically what happened was. And I think you saw this in the episodes. Zach was standing right there when she got it. So he pretty much knew 100 that maybe had it. And he told a lot of people that as well. He was like, hey, I was standing there. I'm, like, 99% sure that Mickey has this power. And so there are only a few people in the house that didn't have that full confirmation. And you, I believe, were one of those people. Yeah, the thing is, I swear Riley was not one of those. I swear to you, Riley was in some of those conversations.
- [82:44]
B
I don't. I don't think Riley was, because he and I were convinced that, like, either we were convinced it was either Ashley or Mickey, and it was like a toss up on who. And I think the way that Ashley was acting that night in particular led us to believe that it was her.
- [83:00]
A
Yeah, I, like, I feel like I remember him being. But the thing is that, like, he wasn't in as many of the conversations. He was definitely in some of the conversations where people are like, oh, Mickey has it 100% but then the thing I was saying, because basically in the community for weeks we'd been like, oh, waste. Waste of the power. Mickey's power will never work because everyone knows she has it. Everyone would instantly choose her, except for maybe Keanu.
- [83:35]
B
Well, yeah, I was not in any of those conversations. So I had. No one had ever told me that Mickey had the power.
- [83:41]
A
Yeah. But what I was saying was I actually think that this whole questioning thing is going to make it more difficult than not. Because even if you have a pretty good idea of who has it, because like, even Riley had had said like the week before, Mickey 100 has it. And he didn't, I think, have like the concrete evidence, but he believed that she did. But the fact that you are now going to spend time questioning every person, it's going to make you rethink things you already knew and make you question things that you might have done, have already suspected and give opportunity, which Ashley was able to very smartly do, to throw in extra doubt. So, so Ashley goes up there, pretends like she has it, and Riley's. She's. She's got it. It's her. It's her. And. And Zach could have told him, but I would say smartly didn't because they, Riley and Catherine did talk about how they were hoping to know to backdoor Zach that week if they had the chance. And. And then Vinnie, of course. Actually, I think I have a clip of what Vinnie said in the episode. I let him know without pushing too hard because at that time I was like, classic Vinnie. Classic Vinny doesn't push too hard. You should have just told him if you wanted him to be hoh.
- [84:59]
B
So he told him. He told him that Mickey had it.
- [85:02]
A
Basically, Vinnie was like, I don't know. I. I really think it's Mickey.
- [85:06]
B
Oh, really?
- [85:07]
A
I don't think it's Ashley. I don't think so. I think it's Mickey. But at that point, Riley had already. Already been convinced by Ashley's sort of ploy. So Mickey ends up taking over the hoh. This was a wild night for the live feeders, Keanu, because at this point, Riley was, you know, not very popular. And a lot of people. The feeds came back to Riley as the hoh. They went to bed and then woke up the next morning to Mickey is the hoh. And at this point, Mickey was very popular. And so it was like, what a, what a roller coaster ride. Now this HOH would. Would be the last week that Mickey was very popular. But, you know, so nominations are pretty straightforward. You and Kelly continue to be the obvious choices. And then Riley, she stole his hoh. She kind of cussed her out afterward. And you, of course, then win the veto again. And this is the prompt moment. Yes. So this was interesting because feeds came back. We didn't see the competition on the feeds. Feeds came back and everyone was talking about you, like, blowing up on Ava, and you had, like, apologized, and everyone was like, good on you, Ava, for sticking up for yourself. And we were like, oh, what happened? And then we all watched the episode and you said, I believe you have a prop. And we were like, that can't be it. Right? They edited something out. Right. And we're like, asking Zach and, like, people in the X interview, like, did. Did something else happen? Like, like asking Jimmy, like, what. So what happened in the. In the thing? They're. They're all just like, I just said, I believe you have a prompt. We just thought it was disrespectful.
- [87:09]
B
Like, yeah, man, that's it crazy, because there was a lot of. There's obviously what they don't show is that there was a lot of dead air there. So really the reason I said that was because it was like. And I'm not even exaggerating, there was, like, at least five to, like, eight minutes of straight silence, and nobody was celebrating with me or anything. So I was like. That's when I told her. I was like, I believe you have a prompt. Because I was like, yo, if we're not going to celebrate, I want this veto to go back to the house and celebrate by myself. Because, like, I don't want to just be standing here. This is awkward.
- [87:43]
A
Yeah. In terms of, like, BB trash talk, pretty sure that's pretty low on the scale of house target wins veto. Right. Like, also, like, and this is where I think this is probably the moment that took you over the top for the fans. I think, like, your response to Jimmy the BB Butler. This was the moment where people are like, that was a fun line. And. And, like, people seem to really, like, overreact to. It was sort of the sentiment. And. And I do think that, like, through the season, you consistently were able to, like, retort the various speeches and declarations against you very effectively, which, again, I think goes back to, like, you not ris like, other people's, like, emotional prods. But this is. This is probably my favorite moment. I. I believe you have a prompt I thought was very fun, especially because it made people so mad.
- [88:52]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that was, man, what made me more upset than anything was. And this is what makes it so funny to go back and watch and realize that Kelly and. And Riley didn't even want anything to do with me anyway. Was the whole reason I even, like, was upset and wanted to go back and celebrate by myself, whatever, was because I was like, they didn't show this in the episode, but when I beat Riley and I gave him a hug, I was actually, like, tearing up and, like, almost crying because I felt like I essentially sent one of my best friends home, either Kelly or Riley, So I was actually crying about it. And then I go back, beat Rachel, and, like, everyone's just quiet. And I was like, yo, all right, if no one's gonna celebrate, that's fine with me, but at least let me go back to the house, because I'm not just gonna stand here in this dead silence. This is awkward.
- [89:33]
A
Mm. So this is when things get very interesting because you win this veto. And that, of course, sends terror into the hearts of Mickey and Morgan. Mickey in particular, who just was trying to target you at this point. She's already, weirdly, like, Riley also seemed to have this weird power in the house where, like, he had just, you know, cussed her out, was clearly going after her. But then in the. In a matter of days, Mickey was like, Riley's 100% with me. Riley and Catherine are locked in with me. They are my numbers, and I'm going to keep them safe this week. And so for her, she was searching for a replacement, you know, target, essentially, and there were obviously, like, a few options. Again, much of the house was pushing for Catherine to go up on the block to just send one of Katherine and Riley home. She didn't. He was adamant about not doing that. So then it came down to the person that Rachel and Ashley and them had been pushing, which was Vince or the person that she had been really upset at a couple of weeks ago, of course, was Jimmy. And with you remaining in the game, it obviously made a lot of sense for them to want to continue to throw Jimmy under the bus as a scapegoat, which makes a lot of sense for them until they're the ones that send him home themselves. Because what's the point in having you blame Jimmy, right? If they take him out for you, then who are you going to go after? Because you don't have Jimmy to go after anymore.
- [91:10]
B
Right, right, right.
- [91:12]
A
Yeah.
- [91:12]
B
That was. I mean, like. Like I said, we had that conversation up in the hoh room, and once we realized that it was Jimmy, obviously I was pushing for it because I wanted him out of the game more than anybody. But I guess they felt like he was. From what I understand, they felt like he was kind of starting to sway towards actually working with me, and that was not okay with them.
- [91:33]
A
Yeah. Which, you know, wasn't true. Right. Like, he was. I mean, I think in your mind at the time, you still believed it to be somewhat true. Right. Like, because he was having these meetings with you, and he was doing his best to, like, keep up appearances, but the reality was that he was locked in with them.
- [91:51]
B
And.
- [91:52]
A
And so I think in many ways, like, your belief in Jimmy was part of what sunk him even more, because you believe so strongly that. Or not so strongly, but, like, you believed that he was working with you. And therefore, in their minds, they were like, oh, look at Jimmy playing the field, like, putting us in a bad position. And it's like. Like, honestly, you can tell me if. If I have the wrong perspective from. Of this, but, like, I feel like Jimmy wasn't even trying that hard. I. I saw Jimmy occasionally being like, mickey and Morgan really aren't that much against you. Like, more. Rachel certainly did that a bunch of times. But I. I remember Jim, even Jimmy doing it once, and he had. He eventually was like, asking them, like, what did you want me to do? Tell him, no, I'm the one you should be mad at, not them?
- [92:39]
B
Yeah, that was. I think, a big reason why I felt so strongly about Morgan and Mickey was that they wanted me to go after Jimmy so badly. And I had already believed that Jimmy was. Was good.
- [92:55]
A
Right.
- [92:55]
B
So, like, me and Jimmy were good. We had our talk, whatever. We hashed everything out. So to me, we're good. But they were insisting that I go after him so badly that instead of, like, believing them like, I probably should have, I was already. I had already created a relationship with Jimmy that was strong to me in my eyes, stronger than one that I didn't even have with Mickey and Morgan. So, like, that was what I should be doing in my head.
- [93:23]
A
Yeah. And that stemmed from that week when he was hoh. They were like, we should be telling Keanu about what Jimmy's really doing is to. To, you know, make sure that Jimmy doesn't have count as a number. And then, you know, you're up there in the HOH room after they tried to target you and still saying that you believe Jimmy to be on your side. And they're like, this guy. Like, we've been trying, so. But this is. Again, this is where, like, Mickey really lost a lot of people. Was that, like, okay, Great. You've convinced Keanu that Jimmy really is the problem. Why are you doing Keanu's dirty work meanwhile? You know, Keanu's downstairs. Like, well, once Jimmy is gone.
- [94:04]
B
I literally said that once he's gone, I don't know what the heck I'm gonna do.
- [94:07]
A
Yeah. And so, honestly, I would say this was one of your more successful. Not to say that you, like, tricked them into targeting Jimmy because it's something that they had wanted to do, but, like, this conversation that you had with them was exactly what they needed to hear and got them to do a thing that they really should not have done. And so this was, like, one of your stronger positions in the game. And this is probably one of your better weeks overall, because this is also a week where you're going to be, you know, not that, like, is it this. I think it's maybe this week into next week. Hold on. When does P gate happen?
- [94:50]
B
Oh, I don't even remember.
- [94:51]
A
That's funny. It was either this week or next week. I think it's. Let me just. Let me just do a search for he in my notes. There we go. So this is. There's this earlier, I think. I think I put this in the wrong. No, here. Here it is week four. So it is this week, the. The Mickey hoh. Where P gate happens. And. And so I guess. Have you seen this in the episodes or. It wasn't in the episode, actually.
- [95:26]
B
Was it not?
- [95:27]
A
No, it was on Unlocked.
- [95:29]
B
Oh, okay. Well, then, no, I haven't. I haven't seen that yet.
- [95:32]
A
No. Yeah. Basically what happens is they wake up in the morning, there's a bunch of pee, theoretically, on the floor. They're wondering who did it. Obviously, it has to be one of the guys. Kelly decides she wants to instigate. Oh, man.
- [95:48]
B
Why do I instigate so much?
- [95:53]
A
Goes to you and says, hey, they're saying you're doing it or you did this. And then so you go into the bathroom, you and Rachel get into this big fight. But I always tracked this as, like, a turning point in your relationship because you get into this big fight, eventually you realize that it was Kelly that was instigating, and you have this sort of, like, apology, like, reconciliation afterward. And it felt like from there, you started to really, you know, maybe not fully trust each other, but, like, started like you were able to move on to a new chapter in your relationship.
- [96:29]
B
Yeah, I would say. I mean, I would say that definitely set, like, the grounds for us to be able to move forward. But I think Jimmy going Home and me consoling her, which was really sad, I believe was really the moment that allowed us to be like that really kind of helped us understand what our relationship was, that we were, like, always gonna fight, always going to be friends after, probably gonna fight again. Be friends. You know what I mean?
- [96:56]
A
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Like the. The week as a whole, I would say, for sure. Like, especially losing Jimmy. She, at that point, had very few people left in the game. And so it made even more sense for the two of you to be working together. Now. The show made it seem like PG was solved and that it was actually you, Keanu.
- [97:19]
B
Oh, really?
- [97:20]
A
That's. That's the perspective that the show seems to want everyone to think. However, I'm still not personally convinced. Keanu, what is your take on this?
- [97:28]
B
No, I actually know. I know who it was. I'm not going to throw them under the bus. But from. So what I thought at the time was, I was like, yo, we're guys. You know what I mean? So if you got someone who's an aggressive shaker out there, there might be a couple of droplets that make it on the floor. I'll say this. If people really, truly watch the live feeds for the first five or six weeks, they know that I walked around the bare. Around the house, everywhere, barefoot. Except when I would go to the bathroom, I always wore my sandals when I went into the stall. There's a reason for that, because there was always droplets of pee on the floor, and I would always pick it up. And that's what pissed me off. When Kelly told me that Rachel thought it was me, I was like, yo, I'm the one cleaning this shit up every single time I freaking go in there. Like, it was definitely not me. But what I did say, like, in the Diary Room at one point was like, I don't know, man. I go pee every morning at like, 4:30. Did I maybe aggressively shake too much and get a couple droplets on the floor? Maybe. But, like, it's not like I sat there and peed on the floor. It wasn't until I got to the jury house that I found out that it was like, legitimately, like, a puddle. And I was like, that definitely wasn't me. And that's what pissed me off. And then Kelly told me who it was. And. And I'm not going to throw them under the bus, but.
- [98:40]
A
Well, I will tell you, the leading theory was that maybe unbeknownst to the person going, the toilet seat was down the lid, and maybe that's how it happened. Because otherwise, how. How else would it happen? And I believe the last person seen going to the bathroom on the feeds was Vince, but it could have been while the music was playing. We don't know. So anyway.
- [99:07]
B
Well, it's good that my name's cleared at least, because that. That was something I was like, come on, bro. Really?
- [99:12]
A
Yeah.
- [99:13]
B
Peeing on the floor. I literally. I live. I have seven siblings, four of which are girls. Like, I know to put the seat up. I know to pee in the toilet. And if for whatever reason I get pee anywhere outside of the toilet. Yeah. Clean it up. Like, that's just what you do.
- [99:29]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So Jimmy, of course, is going to be the Renam. You may or may not have seen this in the episodes you've gotten here. Also, not all of it made the episodes, but Rachel's pretty disheartened at this time. She's been told by Ashley about the way that the majority alliance talks about her, which is the way the majority Reliance talks about everybody. Who are we bringing to jury? Who's in? Who's in jury? Is who's in the upper jury? Who's in the lower jury? Obviously Keanu and Kelly not in jury. Ashley not in jury. We want Rachel in the jury because she's gonna be logical. She's gonna be unbiased. We'll. We'll bring her. She'll be the first person in jury. They say this in front of Ashley. Ashley runs it back to Rachel. And Rachel's pissed because she's, you know, away for, you know, 80, whatever, 90 days, and from her family. And she's like, I'm not here to just make the jury so that I can vote for one of you. And so she's pretty upset about this. And she goes to Mickey and she's pitch pitching Vince and it's not going anywhere. And she says, okay, here's another option. You could put up Ava. Be like, what? And then pretty quickly we start to realize, oh, Ava's code for her. She's pitching for Mickey to put her on the block and send her home before she goes to. Before jury starts. And it's this, like, big emotional moment and. And it starts to seemingly actually get Mickey to start to consider Vince again. Ashley makes a hard pitch for Vince to go up and why it makes sense for Vince to go up and. And Mickey starts going, okay, I think I'm gonna put Vince up on the block and basically goes to tell Morgan I think it's actually gonna be Vince. And Morgan says, it cannot be Vince cannot be Vince, I need him in this game. He is. He is, like, my emotional support. He's the only person that will talk personal things with me. And things get heated and Mickey backs down and they do Jimmy instead. But it was, again, quite. Quite a drama. Wow.
- [101:47]
B
Yeah, that's. That's crazy that, like, none of that stuff makes the episode.
- [101:52]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's. It's unfortunate because, like, I think because in the episodes, they're always trying to, like, make it seem like anything can happen when you watch it happen. They never show, like, the actual, like, back and forth or the actual moment where it's decided, which is usually the most entertaining part in my.
- [102:12]
B
Right.
- [102:14]
A
But what are you gonna do?
- [102:16]
B
That's funny to hear that, like, all that stuff happened, you know, unbeknownst to me or whatever, because I thought, like, me going up there and us finding out that it was Jimmy, like, all right, cool, Problem solved. He's going up there no matter what. And I know at some point later, I go up there and just kind of confirm that that's what they're doing. And the only reason I did that was to go to Riley and be like, hey, you know, I don't know who they're gonna put up. Even though I knew who they were thinking at least. And I was like, I don't know who they're gonna put up, but it's not Catherine. So I think you can. You can.
- [102:43]
A
You're actually. You're right to point that out, because I'd forgotten you came up in the middle of that conversation. I'm talking about.
- [102:49]
B
Oh, really?
- [102:49]
A
Oh, it was Mickey. Morgan. She was telling Morgan it's gonna be Vince. And Morgan was freaking out, being like, it cannot be Vince. And then you interrupted that conversation. You sat in there and talked to them for a little bit. And then after you left was when Mickey backed down. So I think that, like, you know, you had. You'd been talking about, like, the Jimmy stuff. I think you helped. Not necessarily intentionally, but you helped reinforce the idea that, like, the Jimmy move was the move to make and that, like, you know, you felt like them making that move was good for you and for, like, the relationship that you were building. And I, I. I could definitely see. I believe at the time, too, I credited you a bit for, like, oh, it seemed like Keanu came in and. And helped solidify this. Of course, you know, Morgan probably gets the bulk of the credit for it being so close to Mickey and so adamantly pushing.
- [103:42]
B
But, like, I'll take an assist. Yeah.
- [103:44]
A
Yeah, definitely.
- [103:45]
B
I'll take throwing it off the backboard so Morgan could slam dunk it. That's funny.
- [103:53]
A
So there's some really fun stuff that happens here. First of all, Mickey, Morgan, Vince, and Zach, in the wake of this move, create the melting pot alliance, the four of them, which does make the episodes. And. And Ashley's pretty pissed at this. She says this was a game losing move for Mickey, which. Yeah, yeah, it was. And. And Mickey gets pissed at Ashley for not supporting the move. And so then Ashley has this whole thing, which I don't think makes the episodes. All this whole Adrian vote flip with Zach and Vince. They went to Ava for it, which I thought was wild in the first place, because Ava's. Ava loves Will. Why would she flip on Will? And I figured everyone figured Ava's gonna tell Will. She's gonna tell people that they tried to make this flip. Vinnie's gonna get caught lying to you and lying to Riley. Like, he's gonna get caught because Ava's gonna rat him out and expose everything. And then Ava never said a word. It was like, why is she. Why isn't she doing anything? She was telling the cameras, like, hey, I just. I just convinced Vince and Zach to not flip. Like, I just did a thing in this game, which is very fun. But then she never said anything about it. And we're like, why isn't she telling anyone? And so Ashley, who noticed that there was something sketchy going on at the vote, as many people did, went to Ava and pretended she already knew that they tried to flip Ava's vote, just guessing. And Ava inadvertently then confirmed it to Ashley. And so then Ashley now had confirmation that Vince and Zach tried to flip the vote. She goes up to Mickey as sort of a peace off. One of her peace offerings to Mickey was, hey, did you know about this thing that Vince and Zach tried to flip the vote to keep Adrian last week? Mickey's like, I did not know this. That's making me look at Zach different. And how did you know this? And she was like, heard it straight from the source. Like, Ava, yeah. Act like I already know. Sang like a canary. And very fun move by Ashley. And this, of course, is going to get brought up later in the season, but I don't think it ever, like, reached you. I don't think it ever came back to you.
- [106:06]
B
Not surprised.
- [106:10]
A
Which I guess, like, to be fair, I think at some point in the game, people realized we need to stop trying to flip him on Vince because it's just not going to happen. Yeah. So ultimately, Jimmy is evicted Here. It's a pretty easy vote. And, oh, did you see the episode of the vote? So, you know, Rachel was pushing really hard at the last minute, trying to get Ava being like, we have the votes. Let's do it. Right. I'm sure you've heard about this. She's. She does the same thing to Ashley when she walks through the hallway after voting. She said, we have to vote Kelly out. We have to keep Jimmy. We have to. We have the vote. And Ash says, we don't have the vote. She's, no, we haven't. Trust me. Vote this way. So Ashley goes in the diary room and she votes to evict Kelly instead of Jimmy. And then she walks out, runs into Will, and he's like, how did you vote? And she's like, I voted Kelly. He's like, no. She's like, oh, my God. And she runs back into the diary room.
- [107:11]
B
I have seen a clip of that.
- [107:13]
A
Yeah, yeah. He's like, I made a mistake. I'm actually voting to evict Jimmy. Thank you. And then runs out of the diary room. And Julie goes, no, no, no. But she doesn't hear it. So she leaves the diary room thinking that she managed to genuinely change her vote. Goes around the house saying, yeah, I voted to evict Jimmy.
- [107:36]
B
Oh, wow, that's so funny, man. Yeah, we. I mean, we all knew better because Jimmy only gave her and Rachel a hug before he left.
- [107:44]
A
Well, he. I mean, he didn't even know that she had done that, but. But, yeah, it was very funny. Very funny. Little.
- [107:52]
B
Yeah, I did see a clip of that on, like, tick Tock or something where she ran back in, and I was like, what the heck was that for? That's funny.
- [107:58]
A
It's so good. So Ava wins the next hoh and she actually wanted to nominate Ashley. She hated Ashley. She was, I think, one, mad that Ashley managed to get that information out of her. Two, was mad that Ashley wasn't supporting Mickey's HOA train. And three, just really seemed to hate Ashley for some reason that we don't really know. So her initial nominees are you, because she argued with you and Vinnie, because he's Vinnie the Lip, and, you know, she's seen what he's doing. And. And Ashley was her third nominee. Mickey and Will have to be like, no, no, Zach. And so she ends up doing Zach instead. This was. This was. At this point, your relationship with Rachel is developing even further. And I would say that, like, everyone was on board. Everyone wanted Zach or Vinnie gone, and they wanted you to stay and of course, it's this week that. That you don't end up winning the veto. And just to skip ahead slightly here, this is when you gave everyone a massive heart attack, because the day of the blockbuster, you were talking about throwing the blockbuster, and Rachel was having to, like, beg you to not do it. And. And I was like, he's not gonna do it because he's not gonna know who he's throwing it to. And then Rachel makes that point. You go, well, no, I just stand there at the buzzer and wait. And I'd be like, no, no. He actually. He has an actual plan. Oh, my God. Because they 1000% were hoping that you would do that so that they could vote you out.
- [109:51]
B
I figured that was like, something in my brain told me, like, all right, well, Vinnie's close, but screw that.
- [109:58]
A
You walked to it too. So I. Again, there's footage of me reacting to this. You were walking. I was like, he's walking. Oh, he. He hit it. He hit it. Okay, we're good.
- [110:09]
B
Oh, my God. Yeah, dude, that was a legitimate thought. And you know what? The week before, too, I was thinking about using the veto on Kelly if Lauren promised to put Ashley up instead of Adrian or whatever, you know, whatever week that was. So I was. I was making, like, reckless moves in my head because I was starting to get a little bit more confident in my abilities to. To win those things. And I was like, you know what? Let me not get too crazy here.
- [110:34]
A
Yeah, man. A lot of people seemed inspired by Tucker.
- [110:40]
B
Oh, my God. He was like everybody's favorite. Favorite player in that house. I was like, have you guys seen any other season?
- [110:46]
A
Well, it's also like, you remember how he left, right?
- [110:49]
B
Yeah, exactly. That was. Yeah, that was one of the. I think Rachel told me something like that, and I was like, yeah, you know what? Let me. Let me not follow in those footsteps, as entertaining as he was.
- [111:01]
A
So. So there's a lot of stuff here with Zach and Vinnie and some back and forth. Of course, you, I'm sure, have learned after the fact that Zach had this 10k veto power.
- [111:13]
B
Yeah. Crazy.
- [111:15]
A
I cannot believe that he didn't use. Despite the fact that right before he made the decision, he literally had Ashley telling him, that's 5050 at best. And he was like, I'm still good. Still not gonna use this power. When did he.
- [111:29]
B
He had to use it at the Renam ceremony.
- [111:31]
A
Yes.
- [111:32]
B
Okay. Wow.
- [111:33]
A
I think he had to make. Typically, you have to make the decision beforehand. You go into the doctor and you tell them what you plan to do, although I think you're probably allowed to call an audible if you decide to. But. But yeah, he. He decides not to use it, which is, you know, obviously devastating for his chances of staying. The vote was for him to stay briefly, and then it changed. And then. And then it was for him to stay again because he told Morgan about his power and he didn't use it to protect her. And so for a second there, Morgan was like, okay, we do have to keep Zach. And it flipped again. One of the reasons why is that Mickey at this point had turned against Rachel and really knew that. Knew that Rachel was trying to work with Zach and was trying to target Vinnie. And so by keeping Vinnie in the game, she's keeping a target for Rachel. And this, of course, because Rachel and Morgan got into that fight about. About the jury thing, which maybe you haven't seen if you haven't gotten this far. But. But basically, Morgan was trying to convince Rachel to vote. To vote you out instead of Zach or Vinnie, to keep both Zach and Vinnie. And Rachel was hearing none of it. She was like, that's stupid. And the fact that Morgan was even trying to campaign in that direction was kind of like pissing her off. And then at some point, you know, Morgan brought up the jury like, she wants both Zach and Vinnie on the jury. And Rachel is just like, I've. I'm sick of hearing about this jury. If you and your friends think you're going to be able to bring me along to the jury, you've got. They get into this. This big fight about it. Morgan afterward really latched onto the fact that Rachel said, friends with an S mean my friends. And. And so this really started, like, the big rift between Rachel, Mickey and Morgan. And then Mickey spends, like the rest of the week doing one on ones campaigning for everyone to take a shot at Rachel next week. Week, which was, you know, pretty wild. But that's. Yeah, that's basically that week. You. You are talking. So this is a thing that we had to mention a few times. You had a few conversations with Riley where you told him, hey, once it gets down to like, final, you know, final five, final four, whatever, like, you know, you're gonna have to cut Catherine. And we were just like, keanu, in what world is Riley, I die for you, Catherine. Gonna. Gonna cut Catherine here. And he was so mad at you for, like, even bringing it up. And it was like, what, Keanu?
- [114:23]
B
Why, man? I. I just. I. In my brain. Well, first of all, I obviously didn't see that I'M gonna die for you stuff.
- [114:32]
A
Yeah.
- [114:32]
B
And you know, I, and I also didn't like, to me, I don't know how, how strong those relationships in there are. I obviously, I know now in hindsight when Rachel tells me too, like, oh, you know, you can't just break that up. Like, that's not. But yeah, to me, I guess I knew how strongly I felt about our final three, so I just wanted to reinforce that he also had felt that way. And yeah, you don't do that.
- [115:00]
A
Yeah, that's a, that's a pretty easy. I think just like rule is that. And it's on. To be fair, it's one that a lot of people do fall into the trap of. But like showmances never turn on each other. Like, there's maybe one in a hundred that will do so prior to a final three scenario. There's maybe five in 100 that will turn each other at the final three, but never before that. That. And so you should never, like, even when they're saying like, oh, I'm so pissed at this person, I can't believe they did this, they complain about them. They say, oh, I'm totally going to be willing to cut them because I know I can't beat them. It's always, even if it feels true to them in the moment, it's never actually, they're never actually going to betray those people. The, those, like those kinds of connections are just way too strong. It's like, it's like in real life when you know somebody is in a relationship and they complain to you as a friend and they're like, oh, this person's really annoying. And then like you fall into the trap of like trash talking them and then they're back together the next week and it's like, like now you're the person that trash talk their significant other. It's like, it's like, yeah, it just.
- [116:03]
B
Doesn'T work out for the same reason. You never trash talk your significant other to your mom or something. Yeah, yeah, I got you. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.
- [116:13]
A
So. So the rest of this week is again, it's a lot of Mickey campaigning against Rachel and then Zach is evicted after you. You crush them in the blockbuster. Everyone was cheering for you, by the way. Like, like everyone was.
- [116:31]
B
That was one of the coolest moments, man. Me coming back to my phone and seeing like some of the stories that people have posted and seeing like, like bars of people just like cheering. That was, that was cool, I would.
- [116:41]
A
Say for, because, like, I'm sure You know this, but, like, there's. There's the casual audience that watches the show, watches the episodes, and then there's like, the live theater audience. It's, like, deeply ingrained in the. In the community online. And I would say, from my perspective, this is probably the height of your popularity on the. For the live feeders that you were like, you know, because quite frankly, in terms of popularity for the live feeders, it was often who is working with Rachel, who is not working with Rachel, in part because Rachel was a fan favorite, but also in part part because, you know, like, when people were working with Rachel, they, like, they tended to be more likable. There was less trash talking going on. There was a lot of trash talking with Vinnie and Zach and them. And then also, like, at least in your case, it was like, when you were working with Vince, you were being lied to and you weren't aware of the truth. And when you were working with Rachel, she was telling you true things, and you had this, like, fun dynamic. And so people really love that. That connection. And so you winning this blockbuster and sending home Zach, who didn't use the veto on himself, and all this stuff was just, like, peak. Peak stuff here.
- [118:05]
B
Nice. It's good to know that I had the live. The live feeders, at least for a little bit.
- [118:11]
A
And. And I will say this too, like, you weren't unpopular with the live feeders, I would say, ever really like you. You have always had support. I would say that there are, like, two major things that people didn't like. One of them was, you know, just the frustration with your gameplay. And then the other was, of course, some of, like, the. Some of the stuff like Vinnie will talk to you about later in the season, and some of the stuff that Ashley brings up and Rachel talks about with, like, the scoffing, which we'll get to, I'm sure, if you want to talk about it.
- [118:51]
B
But first, that's just a habit.
- [118:57]
A
Rachel wins the hoh. And this is. This is an interesting week. Of course, Ashley really wants Riley to be the target. She sees the danger that Riley has at this point in the game. I am saying, like, I think Riley's becoming a front runner to win this game. Game. Because I think he was. If this shot hadn't landed, I equated it to, like, the. The vent on the Death Star. Like, everything had to line up to, like, just, like, destroy this. This machine that was working because Kelly was devoted to Riley, you were devoted to Riley. Catherine was devoted to Riley. Lauren was locked in with Riley. And Catherine. Even Mickey was devoted to Riley and Catherine. And it was like, if this train starts moving, I don't think there's going to be a way to stop it. Because on top of all of that, all of the best competitors are on that side, at least to that. To that point. And so. But the problem was that for Rachel, that, like, Mickey and Morgan had been targeting her so, so adamantly the week before, and so she had too many people to deal with. And so initially, she tries to appease Riley and Catherine with showman stuff. And. And Ashley's trying to be like, no, we have to bury the hatchet with. With Mickey and Morgan. We have to be targeting. Riley doesn't listen to her at first. This is when Ashley says something that I didn't even catch at the time. She says, I've realized Vince is not powerful. I know everyone loves him, but he's not powerful. He will do anything Morgan tells him to do. So right now, that means that if we get Morgan, we get Vince, and that means that Riley is our biggest threat. Totally nailed it. It's ultimately, though, it has to be Mickey and Morgan on the block, and there's, you know, a lot of stuff going on here with them. And this is like, again, peak frenemies content with you and Rachel, it's like. Like, she's in power. She's keeping. She's the first hoh in the entire season to not even consider nominating you. And so, like, you've got this, like, budding relate. And. And we can tell, too, that, like, despite everything, you seem to be the person Rachel enjoys hanging out with the most. Like, like, you're hanging out. And she's like, hey, don't leave yet. Like, yeah, she's enjoying the dynamic. And. And it was very sad at the end of the week when. When. When the frenemies became more enemies than friends. But she's still at this point trying to warn you about Vince and Riley. And, you know, it's almost like she. There came a point in your relationship where you both kind of agreed to disagree. I would say that, like, she's gonna stop. She's just like, listen, this is the truth, but I'm not gonna keep pushing it on you. And you're kind of like, I know you believe that to be the truth, but I know it's not true. And so even though it was, it was. So Lauren wins this veto. This was actually very funny, at least from our perspective. You agreed with Rachel. You didn't want the veto to be used. You were Hoping to get Mickey out, you know, Mickey or Morgan. And you don't want the video to be used because you don't know what, you know. You don't want Kelly on the block. You certainly don't want Vince on the block. You don't know that Vince. Or, sorry, Riley. You don't know that Riley's an option yet. But you don't even. You know, you agreed with Rachel. You don't want the video to be used. You tell Lauren, watch out for the. Like, listen to the people who are trying to push an agenda on you. And, you know, pay attention to the people who are like, do what's best for your game, because those are people who really have your best interests. Then you go to Vince and you say, hey, I told Lauren this. If you say. If you tell her not, you know, you don't have an opinion, she should do what she wants to do for a game. She'll, you know, she'll hear that first thing Vince does. Keanu was just, like, telling me what to say to you about, like, how I should say that, you know, you should not look out for, like, whatever, whatever. And Lauren is like, I thought that was weird. He was trying to set me up. Wow.
- [123:27]
B
Wow. And I mean. And in reality, the only reason I even said that was because I firmly believed. And I still. I. If I'm not mistaken, I think we did have the votes to keep Vince in any scenario.
- [123:40]
A
So Vince versus Morgan would have been interesting. Assuming Mickey still wins the blockbuster, they would have had Ava's vote, but they. So it really comes down to Mickey, I think, and we can assume that Mickey votes out. Hold on. Let me just. Let's. Let's. Let's look this.
- [124:03]
B
Yeah, I can't remember exactly who was.
- [124:04]
A
In the game and stuff, but Vinnie was in danger. I will say he was definitely in some danger. Considering the vote does actually flip. Flip on Riley, there's definitely a chance it flips on. On Vince as well. So there's nine votes total. There would have been Ashley, Mickey, Ava, Will. And then on the other side, evicting Morgan would have been you, Riley, Catherine, Lauren. Who am I missing here? Kelly. Kelly votes to evict morgue Morgan. Yeah.
- [124:45]
B
Right. So, yeah, that was where we. I thought we had the five.
- [124:49]
A
Yeah, he's probably.
- [124:51]
B
My whole argument was like, well, like, Vinnie, I know it's scary to be on the block come eviction night, but if, you know, it doesn't get used on you, we don't have to worry about anybody else on our side going up and you have the numbers no matter what because none of these people are going to flip it. So that was why I was trying to get him to, you know, but at the end of the day, like, I guess I should have been more understanding that people are not going to want to play chicken with their own games.
- [125:17]
A
So, yeah, that was.
- [125:20]
B
That was where I went wrong. Give him. Gave him the ammo to even use against me, which I can't even believe because I was just trying to help him out.
- [125:26]
A
Yeah. So this is when there's again, there's a bunch of push for Lauren to not use the veto for Lauren to use the veto. There's some fun Ashley stuff here where she's, like, trying to convince Lauren to use it. And then Rachel's complaining to Ashley about Lauren using it, and she's like, oh, yeah, I think it's just what her gut's telling her. And, you know, you. You know you have to do though, right? Like the showmance. And so she does talk to you. Hey, if Lauren uses this, I'm. I might have to do Riley. And you were like, like, don't even. Don't even. Don't even talk about that. And so. Oh, man, the. The Lauren stuff, that morning, too, was wild. That night was wild. She was talking to Morgan and Vince in the storage room, and Rachel came in, was like, hey, are you trying to pressure this girl?
- [126:23]
B
Oh, I remember that.
- [126:25]
A
And then the morning of Lauren goes to Rachel and she's.
- [126:30]
B
In my. In my defense, real quick, the only reason I was so adamant about Rachel not putting Riley up also, though, was because, remember, I thought for sure that Vinnie was like the final three. I thought that was because in my head, that's. That's what I was loyal to 100%. So I thought he maybe thought the same way. I knew that he was close to Morgan, but I didn't think that he would go against our final three. And that's just my. Me being naive was, you know, just because I didn't have anybody else doesn't mean other people don't have anybody else else. And for me, that final three was all I had besides Rachel then at that point. And so that's what I stayed the most faithful to. So in my head, Riley, there was no way Riley could go home. So I was like, rachel, why would you do that? There's no way that he goes home.
- [127:19]
A
In your defense as well, that was the, I would say, majority perspective from the live feeders at the time. Also, not that it was like necessarily a Bad move to make. But that, like, trying to get the numbers for Riley to go seemed impossible. Not because of Vince, because at this point, we knew who knows where Vince actually is, but because of Ava, because Ava loved Riley. And trying to get Ava to flip her vote was going to be a lot harder than. Than expected. And she wouldn't have flipped her vote if it were Mickey on the block because she was mad at Mickey at this point for running her hoh. And. And so we thought, like, there's no way or not no way, but, like, the odds of Ava flipping and Vince flipping. And we also had Mickey in the event that Mickey comes off the block. Mickey was talking about voting out Morgan over Riley because Mickey also loved Riley. We weren't even sure that Mickey was a guaranteed vote. So the chances that Mickey would a win the blockbuster and then be all three of those votes would come together seemed impossible. And we were like, you know, we appreciate the boldness, Rachel, but, like, ooh, this is looking tricky.
- [128:33]
B
Right, right, right. Yeah. Like you said, the vent and the Death Star, like, all the stars had to. Had to align. So.
- [128:38]
A
Yeah, yeah. So. So in order to make this happen, this is when the judges are formed. Oh, but first, I want to tell you about the Lauren thing, because it's funny. Lauren tells Rachel the morning of, like, thinking I might use the veto. And Rachel, of course, is like, I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think you should do that. I might have to nominate one of your friends. And they're, like, getting ready because it's the morning. And Lauren's like, oh, yeah. And it's, like, back and forth. And Lauren's really, like, nervous about it. It. At one point, Lauren's like, I have to grab some moisturizer. I'll be. And Rachel, I've got some right here because they're up in the hoh. I got somewhere here. No, no, I'll just be right back. She runs downstairs. She runs into the room with Vince. She's like. She's telling me she's gonna put up, like, one of my friends. And Vince is like, she's. She's lying. She's bluffing. Don't listen to her. And she's like, I don't know, Vince. Like, what do I do? Like, oh, my God, she's coming. She's. I think she's coming. And she, like, rushes out of the room and then goes back upstairs for five minutes. She goes, okay. I think.
- [129:58]
B
Oh, my God, you're bringing. You're. You're you're giving me PTSD from conversing with her in that. Which is hilarious because, like, when we got to the jury house, totally different person. But anyway, right.
- [130:08]
A
It's. It's. I don't want to give you too much PTS50, but, like, I just. I don't know. Keanu.
- [130:15]
B
Oh, my God. Stop.
- [130:21]
A
This. The screen. Turn that screen off. In the room, staring at the monitor.
- [130:26]
B
Oh, my God. There's so many times where I almost grabbed that thing and just, like, turn it off. I'm like, come on. Speak to me, woman.
- [130:32]
A
Oh, my God. Oh, man. Anyway, funny stuff. She ends up using the veto. Of course, Rachel puts Riley on the block. Look, you are very upset. You're very upset. And. And we talked about this at the time because obviously, this was a pretty heated discussion, but, like, given your perspective, it did feel like you were being pretty fair to her, from my perspective, at least, like, to Rachel in. In this. In this sort of argument that you had with her after the fact where it was like, we know that he's wrong. Wrong. We know that Riley did have that conversation with Rachel. We know that Riley wasn't really messing with Keanu all that much. But given what Keanu believes and the fact that, like, he was barely consulted on this and he doesn't think that this is going to go through, and we don't even think this might go through, like, it's kind of understandable why he would. He would be this upset and, like, be talking to Rachel in this way. Yeah.
- [131:30]
B
People seem to think that I was. And obviously, I. I know how I can be when I'm, like, very passionate about what I'm speaking about. And so people seem to think that I was being, like, condescending, and maybe it came off that way, but, yeah, I was just so, like, like, what are you doing? He doesn't have the votes to go anyway. Why would you create this enemy? And at the time, you know, I was trying really hard. Like, I understood the dynamic of Rachel and I's relationship outside of each other. We were working with people on the opposite sides of the house. So I was trying to kind of get her to, like, build a relationship with Vince, build a relationship with Riley, you know, and for her to do that completely undid all the work that I thought at least I was doing. So that's more why I was upset than anything, because I felt like I completely wasted a week of my time.
- [132:13]
A
Yeah. And so, you know, I. I really. I do think, like, because you could tell, I. I felt like, you could tell how much you were hurt by the decision because you really did want to work with Rachel, and you really felt like. Like this was such a. A dagger and such, like, an obstacle in the way of working with her. Like, how are you supposed to keep working together if she does this? Because if your perspective had been correct, this really would have been kind of like a wild move to make. Yeah.
- [132:42]
B
If Riley had stayed, how am I supposed to keep working with Rachel?
- [132:47]
A
And the thing for. The thing that was that, like, she kept telling you, like, Riley said this, and you're like, listen. Even if he did say that, listen, Rachel, people lie. You know, people lie in this game. It was like, yes, Johnny, you're right. They do lie. In this case, to you.
- [133:06]
B
I know, man. I know. See, the thing in my head was, like, anytime someone told me about, like, you know, Adrian talking about me, Kelly talking about me, Vinnie talking about me, Riley talking about me, I understood in. In a. In a roundabout way, I understood my social standing. Right. So I knew that people were going to talk poorly about me. Two people that thought poorly about me. So I always thought that, like, okay, they might have said that, but they only said that because they don't want to be targets themselves. So of course they're gonna go with what you're saying. You know what I mean?
- [133:38]
A
Oh, yeah, for sure. That's. You know, that's, again, one of those situations where I'd say, like. Like, on. It's under. It's an understandable thought process, but theoretically, you should want to be in a situation where, you know, your allies aren't talking about.
- [133:55]
B
Right, right, right.
- [133:56]
A
Yeah.
- [133:56]
B
Like now, like you said earlier, like, this isn't what an alliance is exactly. And, like, I didn't know any better. So for me, I was just like, well, this is the position I'm playing, and I'm really good at it, so screw it. This is what I'm doing.
- [134:11]
A
So. So Riley's on the block, and there's. The judges are formed. This happens because Ashley sees this vision of. Because Vince will do everything Morgan says. If we are able to pull Morgan, then we get Vince as, like, a plus one, which is phenomenal for us. We need his vote this week anyway, so let's make this, like, alliance, and we'll work with Morgan. And once Riley's gone, Morgan will start winning HOHs, and that'll also be good for us. So her and will sort of tag team. They go to Rachel, they go to Morgan, they bring them together, they pull in Vince, they form the judges, and they make sure to go to work on Ava. Now, of course Vince isn't really with this alliance. This is a full of people who he has not worked with and does not work well with. So there's not a lot of incentive for him to actually go in this direction. But there was quite a debate. Corey actually had the opinion that Vince should stick with the Riley side. He should send Morgan home, stick with Riley. I was in the opposite direction. I was saying I feel because I let. To be fair, I didn't see the vision Ashley did at the time. I didn't realize that Vince would do everything Morgan said yet. Yet I didn't realize that until later. So I was of the opinion that if Vince sided with Riley and took out Morgan, Morgan is an ally for him and now he's stuck with like. And maybe you'll tell me this is wrong, but I felt like when it came down to it, Riley had done you less dirty than Vince had and that like you were, you were more trusting of Riley at this point than you were events. Not that you wouldn't work with Vince long term but like, like you were still more loyal to Riley than Vince. Catherine was more loyal to Riley than Vince. Ava was more loyal to Riley than Vince. Mickey was more loyal to Riley than Vince. And it was just like this is really dangerous for a player like Vince, especially considering that Riley is capable of winning competitions as is Catherine. And the only person Vince actually has in that spot is Lauren who ends up being in a better position than he is almost because she's closer to Riley and Catherine who are the power structure at that point. So I think it was an interesting debate in terms of what should Vince do. Obviously from your perspective, you really wanted to go to you guys.
- [136:42]
B
Yeah, I mean to me it was a no brainer. I was like the whole time we were talking, you know, Vince was like, yeah, dude, I'm voting with you guys. I'm voting with you guys. I'm voting with you guys. And I was like, okay, cool. Took it as gospel. I was like, yeah, all right, cool, we're good.
- [136:56]
A
Yeah. I mean, I think at the end of the day like all he needed to do after this vote to take out Riley was, you know, he was in a little bit of danger from blowback but he ends up winning that hoh. All he needed to do was like play his own game from there and stick with Lauren, which is what I intended to do. I think it's just that Morgan kind of got in the way. But I think if he had Done that. I think he was still in a position to potentially win the game. Game. The problem is, and again, we didn't know it at the time that, like, his connection to Morgan was just too powerful and just.
- [137:28]
B
Yeah, I think. I think probably I started to see how strong his relationship with Morgan was at the same time as I think everybody else, which was when he wins the wall. And. And then it was. I. Obviously, I didn't know about the judges, so that made tons more sense once I found out that the judges was a thing. But, yeah, from. From the inside of the house perspective, it was like, all right, Morgan was running everything he did. So how are you going to win when she can claim all your moves? All right, let me try and plug my phone in real quick. We've been here for a while, man. I'm actually really enjoying this, though, by the way, so thank you so much for doing this.
- [138:03]
A
Awesome. Yeah, I'm enjoying it, too. It's always like, I have so much knowledge about these things in my head that becomes instantly useless the second the season ends. So it's very, very fun to be able to put it to you, Juice, you know, hey, I'm for it, man.
- [138:21]
B
I'm here for it. You could be. You could be my. My second big brother coach. Maybe. Maybe I'll actually listen to this one, huh?
- [138:30]
A
Oh, hopefully we'll see.
- [138:32]
B
Oh, man, that's funny.
- [138:34]
A
All right. All right. So ultimately, Vince does vote out Riley, but it was again, one of this one. He was even tighter in terms of, like, how it was going to actually go. There was a lot of back. We really were not sure which way Vince would vote or which way Ava would vote. They had. They had a conversation the night before the vote where they kept going back and forth, should we do it? Should we vote out Riley? Should vote out Morgan. And their conclusion was, let's just decide if it happens in the moment. Oh, my God. The morning of it seemed like Vince was actually leaning in the direction of keeping Riley. He even went to Morgan and said, if I. If I voted you out, would we still be friends?
- [139:25]
B
Oh, wow.
- [139:26]
A
And she basically was like, yeah, you know, like, not if you blindsided me or anything, but, like, yeah. And he. And he was like, oh, okay, like, like, basically, like, like, not if you did it tonight on a blind side. And so then it was like, okay, maybe. Maybe you won't. And then wildly, Mickey won the. The. The blockbuster and the tell that we knew how Vince was going to vote at least, was that. So they had talked in the judges Meeting about how Vince could maybe win your vote over or at least do damage control with you. And. And so one of the things they were going to say was like, Rachel's like, well, you can, you know, you know about what Riley has been saying about Keanu. You can tell him that. And so he was like, yeah, maybe. And so when we saw him after the blockbuster go to you and start telling you about what Riley has said about you, you was like, oh, my God, he's actually voting out Riley. Like, he's doing the thing with Keanu. And so they decided last minute they went in that direction. Mickey does vote that way. And then Ava's in the diary room casting the vote. And I swear to you, she starts to mouth the word. Morgan stops herself, pauses, and says, riley, oh, my God, it was a wild ride. I lost my mind. And just like that, Riley was evicted and you guys went up on the wall.
- [141:15]
B
Wow, that's crazy to know that all that, like, just happened last second like that.
- [141:21]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's. It's one of those things. Like, it. Even though Rachel kind of, like, didn't manage to flip the vote in any meaningful way when Jimmy was on the block, it's like those moments where there's some uncertainty, like, like, hey, you know, you never know. You know, just managing to push in a certain direction can be so potentially effective, but it's very situational, of course.
- [141:56]
B
Now, let me ask you a question.
- [141:57]
A
What would.
- [141:58]
B
What do you think the ramifications would have been had she missed that shot?
- [142:04]
A
I think Riley wins the wall. I don't know. I. I think Riley versus Vince on the wall. Vince looked very good.
- [142:11]
B
Yeah. I would say that he. It was, like, built for him because, like, the position that he used with his arms under, like, that was like, perfect for his height.
- [142:20]
A
He got to. He got to. To trade arms, which is just, like, so effective because he can be resting one arm while he uses the other. That competition is so height dependent typically.
- [142:35]
B
And speak of the devil, and he shall appear. I'm literally. Vinnie, literally just text me. That's hilarious.
- [142:40]
A
There you go. It's basically how. What it's so dependent on, like, where they put the things, and so sometimes they don't put a thing above you sometimes. Yeah.
- [142:51]
B
I've never seen that before.
- [142:52]
A
Yeah. And so, you know, it's just. It's so dependent on how it. How it goes. Taylor managed to win by never moving her hands, so they never got goopy. But then they kind of messed with that by putting in, like, all the rain stuff in addition to the goop. So it's. So there's not really a great strategy, I think, to win it other than, you know, just be the right size. Yeah, I agree.
- [143:22]
B
That's funny. And don't be £250. Everyone's like, oh, Keanu's got that. I was like, guys, what are you talking about? I'm £250. That is not gonna be easy for me.
- [143:32]
A
That, you know, it, like, it. It was possible because there was a lot of, like, upper body strength or like, stuff to it. It used to be that a person of your size would never even come. You'd be one of the first people off the wall. It was only ever for really small, light people, but they changed it to be more upper body dependent. Like a little while ago, Jackson, Mickey ended up winning on the wall. And that was when we were like, oh, wow. Like, this has really changed.
- [144:04]
B
Yeah, I think once. Once it got to the point where it was, like, almost parallel to the ground, I. There's no way I was up there.
- [144:09]
A
Yeah, it's still. It's still so dependent. And like, when it's. When it is just handheld handholds below you, it's about, like, where are those handholds? Are you having to reach up here or down here? And if just getting it at the right angle is just going to be so effective.
- [144:27]
B
Yeah.
- [144:29]
A
So Vince does win hoh. I do think if Riley wins HOH or Vince wins HOH after evicting Morgan and keeping Riley. Either way, we're probably just looking at, like, Rachel, Ashley, you know, Mickey. Morgan's gone. Mickey, potentially. Yeah. Because Riley was happy to target Mickey at that point. It's probably like the three of them on the block. And, you know, the Riley side just. I mean, just crushes from there. Right. Because, yeah, you win the next hoh.
- [145:06]
B
That was my whole argument. I was. I'm sure you guys know this watching the live feeds, but I was trying to get me, Kelly, Catherine, Lauren, Riley, and Vince, the six of us. And I was like, yo, we can literally come together right now and just run the rest of this game.
- [145:21]
A
You were completely right. Yeah. And fans hate it when that happens. But it is an exploitable part of the game. Like, the. The competitions do not vary widely enough in the kinds of skill required to win them. So that, like, if you are the kind of player that can win, you know, three competitions, you're probably gonna win six competitions depending on how long you last. And so if you're the kind of player that very Rarely wins a competition. You. You're probably never going to win a competition. Yeah.
- [145:58]
B
And I think my personal kryptonite was stacking comps.
- [146:03]
A
Yep. Yeah, this. This. Listen, that's personally why I love the stacking comps, why I love anytime, like, more varieties introduced. Because I personally think it's way more interesting when anybody is capable of winning almost any competition. It's so much harder to maneuver for as much as, like, obviously when you're playing the game, you want to be able to, like, control as many variables as possible. It can be frustrating to watch, like, one group of players just win every competition. That's what happened with the committee in Big Brother All Stars 2 Season 22. They literally won every single competition the entire season except for one vita, which was tiny Vita. So it's like, yeah, we like those competitions. Or at least I do. Although I will say, if I played the show, I would not. I would much prefer.
- [146:58]
B
Yeah, no, those are. Those are tough, bro. Those are tough.
- [147:04]
A
Anyway, Vince wins HOH on the wall. He gives the wildest excuse for this vote in the world, which is. Oh, I thought it was a sympathy vote. They tricked me.
- [147:18]
B
Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah, I lost a lot of. I lost a lot of respect for him when he. When he said so. When he said that specifically, I was like, dude, oh.
- [147:31]
A
Yeah.
- [147:32]
B
And. And, yeah, I thought. You know, a part of me thought that by showing him a lot of grace and kindness and things like that, that eventually I would win him over. But I think. And I am in no way, because I already know what people are going to say once I say this out loud, but I'm going to say this, and I'm going to preface this by saying in shape or form, are Vince and Morgan a showmance, but they were, like, operating like one.
- [147:55]
A
Yeah.
- [147:55]
B
So it was. I didn't realize, like, like, for the same reason that I went to Riley and was like, hey, you know, you got to get rid of her at some point.
- [148:01]
A
Right.
- [148:01]
B
I was telling this the same thing about Morgan. I was like, hey, are you going to be okay getting rid of her when you need to? And he was. You know, he was telling me that, yeah, he would. And I was like, all right, cool. Well, that's all I need to hear. And. And, yeah, I just. I believe that through and through.
- [148:17]
A
Yeah. So Vince wants to target Mickey. You have, like, a dramatic change of heart, seemingly. So from our perspective watching the feeds, this was like you were trying to target Rachel. And the reason felt simple. It was that Rachel essentially turned her back on you again. If your information is correct, then she nominated Riley, and she's now not somebody that you can trust to. To keep around. And if you believe that you have enough people that have your back anyway, it makes sense to try to take down, like, one of the bigger threats on the other side.
- [148:57]
B
Right.
- [148:58]
A
The episodes portray this more so, like, you have this conversation with Catherine and Lauren where they are, like, essentially trying to, like, like, plant this idea in your head of, like, hey, if Rachel makes it to the final two, we. We're gonna vote for her. And you kind of go like, wow, well, if I can't beat Rachel in the final two, then I've got to target her. I can't. I can't work with her. And so, yeah, I guess the question is, like, how much of that was the reason why you.
- [149:28]
B
Most definitely. It was most definitely the former.
- [149:30]
A
Yeah.
- [149:31]
B
Just. But speaking with Catherine and Lauren and them telling me that just kind of reinforces that, like, okay, well, if she's not with me and I can't beat her in the final anyway, might as well get rid of her now.
- [149:42]
A
Yeah.
- [149:43]
B
And I really. I really thought at that time, because when we made. When we made our final two, the frenemies, you know, we had agreed to consult with each other and on all the moves that we made, and obviously she didn't do that with me. And, you know, at the time, obviously, I very firmly believed that Riley was with me. So for her to do that to me, I thought was like a huge, huge slap in the face. Especially after I just finished, you know, telling her, like, all right, let's. Let's do this. We're ride or die. But, like, you know, let's. Let's try to, you know, work together the best we can. And for her to not consult with me at all made me feel like, okay, well, that was probably fake and confirmed to me that. That she was kind of like a liar and would only do what's best for her. Right. Which obviously, in the game, you're entitled to do what's best for you. But it really hurt me at the time because she's told me that she would consult me.
- [150:36]
A
You know, I almost forgot about this as well, because there was some drama after the Riley nomination about how Rachel had. It was saying, I told Lauren this is what I was going to do. And Lauren's saying, no, she didn't. She did. She told Lauren straight up, I'm going to nominate Riley if you do this. This. Oh, really?
- [150:57]
B
Wow.
- [150:58]
A
And. And Lauren actively lied about it. She actually came clean to Catherine and Riley about it before Riley left. And, you know, they. They were like, whatever, I guess, but. But she lied to. To you about it, which was, you know, one of her few lies in the house.
- [151:16]
B
Wow. Okay. Well, that's. That's unfortunate.
- [151:21]
A
Yeah. So the target is Mickey. You want him to put up Ashley and. Or Rachel, you know, in the. In the sort of grand scheme of getting Rachel on the block. And. And this is. This is where, you know, not to talk too much about, you know, like, why Vinnie lost necessarily, but, like, it's super relevant to you because this is one of the first times where it really feels like, like, you know, up until this point, he's been lying to you, lying to you, lying to you, and then turning around, doing something else. But there was always some kind of like, well, he really was considering keeping Adrian. He really was considering keeping Riley. There's a reason to lie to you and pretend to you for various things to keep you on side. This is when it was like, why is he lying to Keanu about who he intends to nominate? Like, right before he does it, like, why is he still. He never planned to put up Ashley or Rachel. He just was, like, telling you that he was going to. And up until shortly before the ceremony when he started to be like, maybe I won't. Like, why is he. And this seemed to really continue throughout the weeks, specifically, often with you, like, when he was the hoh at the final five, and he's telling you he is going to nominate Morgan, and as soon as you leave the room, he's like, I'm not nominating Morgan. And it's just like, what's the purpose? You're in control of the situation. You don't need to lie about it anymore.
- [152:58]
B
Yeah, yeah, that was. I. I don't. I never understood, you know, why he. He wouldn't just kind of be. Be honest with me. So. Yeah, I. I don't know, man. I mean, I'm gonna be honest. That was just me, like I said, being naive. Like, I just kind of have always operated under the, hey, man, I trust you're going to do the right thing for both of us. So, you know, do. Do what you got to do.
- [153:21]
A
So Morgan puts in a lot of work here. In particular, she really pushes the judges thing with Vince. This is one of the primary reasons for her to use on him to prevent him from targeting Rachel. Hey, we're the judges. We're an alliance. If you turn on the judges, you'll lose all their jury votes and you know, was this a. An argument he should have listened to? I don't think so, but, but of course, you know, it kind of works. The veto competition happens. I think this is. When you say this, this is so dumb.
- [154:08]
B
I said that quite a few times, so I'm not sure exactly when.
- [154:12]
A
Yeah, this is a fun veto comp. I like this one. The, the poisoned the night to remember.
- [154:19]
B
I think it was.
- [154:20]
A
Yeah, I think that's what it's called.
- [154:21]
B
Yeah, the poison one.
- [154:23]
A
Yeah. Of course, though, there's this round where Mickey is not chosen to. She gets a buy round. You later got into an argument with Ashley about this. That really pissed her off.
- [154:40]
B
What? I can't even remember what was that about?
- [154:43]
A
So she was talking about how the strategy in this round was really bad. And, and you were saying that it wasn't like, it wasn't your strategy that was bad. It was like other people's strategy that was bad. And she was like, Keanu, like, you, you were part of it. It. And then you looked at Vince and you were like, ashley doesn't know anything. And, and Ashley was so upset that she all. She started to try to flip the vote against you, against Kelly. That because you were up again. You, Lauren, and Kelly run the block at that point. And she spent a night like, flipping the vote against you and then woke up the next morning like, no, it has to be Kelly or Lauren. What am I thinking?
- [155:25]
B
Wait, this. Wait, wait, hold up. What week, what week was this?
- [155:28]
A
This was Vinnie's hoh week. The next time when after he nominated Lauren and it was you, Lauren, Kelly.
- [155:36]
B
We just skipped, we skipped forward a little bit.
- [155:38]
A
Sorry, I, I, you just reminded me of the, the argument, so I, I skipped forward.
- [155:42]
B
Oh, got you. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what? But Ashley didn't realize what. I don't understand what, what was so confusing to her because Kelly was like, like, Kelly's thought process was like, let me try and get Vince another mark so that he doesn't win. And I was like, kelly, if Vince wins and keeps nominations the same, that's better than Mickey winning. But it was like by her choosing Vince when she could have chosen Mickey first, it felt like she was trying to get me to do her bidding. And I was like, that's not why I'm here. Like, I'm not going to do your dirty work for you. You know what I mean? And it just felt very kind of like, grimy to me. Like she wanted me to basically take the blow and save her at the same time. And obviously Mickey was not necessarily my biggest fan, but we also kind of didn't really have public beef anymore. So by me going for Mickey when I didn't have to, it was kind of like me yelling that out loud, like, hey, we're not as good as you think we are. You know what I mean? So I was trying to prevent that. And I just told Will when I went to the side, I'm sure they didn't show this, but I was like, like, hey, man, nothing personal against you, but I don't want. I don't want anyone to feel like I'm coming against them specifically.
- [156:50]
A
Well, that's what made the competition so interesting, is that, like, it did have that element of, like, you know, interpersonal sort of I'm targeting this person if I, If I choose them. And then, of course, you. So if I'm remembering correctly, because I don't actually have notes on the episodes themselves, but you tried to. Vince is choosing between Mickey and you, and you were like, pick. Pick me, right?
- [157:24]
B
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because I didn't, I didn't want him to. Why did I. Because I think Kelly was next anyway, and she could choose Mickey.
- [157:33]
A
And he got so mad, and he was like. Because he was going to Mickey. And then he was like, well, now if. Now the Keanu's saying, pick him now. I, I, I'd look like a jerk if I picked Mickey anyway. And so he's like, so now I have to pick Keanu. It was a whole mess. But Mickey ends up winning the veto, and there's all kinds of Winegate happens. I don't know how involved you were in that, but that was. Oh, yeah, because Kelly cried to you about it after.
- [158:08]
B
Yeah, that was so dumb, bro. Oh, my God.
- [158:11]
A
Yeah.
- [158:12]
B
This is so dumb. Yep. I said that so many times throughout the season. I honestly couldn't even pinpoint where that sound bite came from.
- [158:24]
A
Yeah. So Morgan and Ashley both push hard on Vince to not put Rachel up. And Morgan puts a lot of work in. They get Will involved. Lauren has this moment. Because Lauren and you ultimately have a lot in common in the sense that, like, you know, you put way too much trust in. In Vince. You know, it's like her birthday, and Vince is telling her, yeah, I think I'm gonna put up Catherine. And she cries to him like, this. This is. I'm so grateful to be here, and I'm so lucky, but this has been an awful experience. My game is being destroyed. And he was like, your game. Think about my game. And. And she was just, like, so annoyed and they. They. At that point, they were like, man, we really should have evicted Ashley over Adrian. Yeah. And when he puts up. And so then there's this whole drama in the morning. You would. You had talked with him late at night. He got so mad about that. And then the next morning, it was like, you versus Rachel, trying to, like, get the last word in.
- [159:46]
B
He got mad at me for talking to him at night.
- [159:48]
A
Oh, yeah, he was. He was very upset.
- [159:50]
B
Oh, why? What the heck?
- [159:51]
A
He went on a whole rant about how you got in bed with him, and, like. Like, he's trying to sleep, and. And. Yeah.
- [159:58]
B
Oh, God. Wow. Well, I had seen Mickey leave the room, so I was like, oh, he must still be awake.
- [160:04]
A
Well, yeah, I think, because. Let me. Like, this is, like, stuff in the game, you know, and, like, people say things and, you know, I. We're talking about game stuff. I don't want to, like, bring stuff up that's, like, hurtful or makes you feel bad in any way. But they, like, Mickey had been pushing for Catherine to go up as well, and he was complaining to Mickey about how you were pushing Rachel. And so they were up there, like, can we wait him out, like, before so he doesn't get up here? And she was trying to, like, sneak out so that you wouldn't notice, and then he could go to bed, but then you got in there anyway, and he was just, like, really annoyed.
- [160:45]
B
What was the point?
- [160:47]
A
Yeah.
- [160:47]
B
Oh, wow.
- [160:49]
A
What I will say is, like, that is the right move for you. Like, you should be like, that is what a lot of people this season failed to do. It's what Morgan had, It's what Ashley had, and it's what you had. You, all three of you, were pushers. Like, you would get in there and you would make your case, and, you know, unfortunately for you, you were never in the position for it to, like, super, like, land super well. Right. But. But. But so many people in that game, Vince and Zach and some others included, like, just kind of let things happen. And. And that's. I don't think that's the way to play. And, you know, the bottom line is, you know, things. It was close. It was looking like he might put Rachel up for a moment there. Although I will tell you, at this point in time, we did have. I, I. I had come up with a good way to predict what would happen in any given week, unfortunately for you, which was this is what Keanu wants. So the office is gonna happen, because every single week, that's what happened.
- [161:58]
B
Oh, my God.
- [161:59]
A
Except for the Jimmy week, I guess. Wow.
- [162:04]
B
Yeah. This all stems back from me just having very poor social standing throughout the. The game, just in general.
- [162:10]
A
Yeah, I think so. I mean, and again, like, I think that. I don't think it can all be attributed to that. I think that, like, again, there's, like, a way that you communicate with people that didn't always come across super well.
- [162:26]
B
Yeah.
- [162:26]
A
What I will say again, though, is that, like, if you have different social standing, there's more room for that and there's more room for, like. Like a back and forth and people, you know, like, Rachel was. Was the person who, like, really would, like, call you out on it because she actually felt comfortable talking to you and. And, like, wanted to actually work with you. Whereas, like, if people are just humoring you and they don't like how you're communicating with them, they're just gonna, like, yada yada until it's over. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, it wasn't until later when Vince was like, you know, at his last ropes or the end of his rope with you, that he finally was like, you scoff at me? I don't. Like, yeah, man.
- [163:08]
B
A lot of that. A lot of that is. Well, that is not a good habit that I have, but that, you know, I started doing that when I started getting frustrated because people, like, just can't, you know. And I think I said it earlier was like, man, if you're giving me all the information, like, all of the information, how. How are we not. How are you not seeing this? Like, why is there any other consideration? You know what I mean? So it was very frustrating for me. And I guess a lot of that was just me. My inability to see where I guess I was, like, in the game where I guess maybe I thought I was here and I'm really, like, right here or even lower. And it was always just. I was always like. I always felt like I was communicating out of, like, frustration because I was like, man, why aren't we doing these things? Why didn't we make that alliance? We could have been so much better right now. Why aren't we. You know what I mean? And it was always like. Like, almost like you said, it was like whatever I wanted to. Literally the exact opposite happened all the time. And I think it was just starting to, like, maybe I understood that in some way, shape or form, subconsciously, and it was always just really frustrating me. So every time I spoke with somebody at a certain point, I was just like, I'm not gonna get what I Want anyway, but I have to try because that's the game.
- [164:11]
A
Yeah, and you tried, and you had this moment with Rachel where you were like, she was trying to, like, box you out and all this back, because at this point. Point there was all this drama about. So what happened was you were trying to get Rachel on the block. Vince told Rachel that you were trying to get her on the block. She went to you and said, hey, I'm being told you're trying to get me on the block. You denied it, went back to Vince and said, how does Rachel notion I'm trying to get her on the block? And Vince was like. And Vince denies it. And then Vince then went back to Rachel to be like. Like, why is Keanu telling me that you're telling him that I'm trying to get him on the block? And inadvertently, that was the best. That was the furthest you got in getting Vince to nominate Rachel because he was then like, rachel's ratting me out to Keanu. And so again, lots of. Lots of back and forth there, but ultimately, Catherine goes up on the block, and you are very upset about this. This. And you have what was a very serious conversation, I think, for you, but was a very funny conversation for many people watching your competence. What was it? Confidence. Confidence? Yeah.
- [165:33]
B
I mean, well, he told me, he's like, man, I. All I want from this game is to have confidence. And what he always told me was that he struggles to be confident because he can't ever really do what he says he's going to do. So, you know, from my perspective, he wanted. He said he wanted to do something, and he told me that he feels like he's being strong armed to do something else. So I was like, dude, it's. If you want confidence, it's this simple. Like, just do what you say you're gonna do was essentially the, you know, you want to build confidence with yourself, do what you say you're gonna do, then you feel confident, and then as a result, you feel confident. But, you know, that was me trying to motivate him to, you know, feel comfortable in making the decisions he wants to make. But little did I know the decision he actually wanted to make. He just wasn't forthcoming about, you know.
- [166:21]
A
Yeah. And I mean, again, this is a spot where I really think he should have turned on Rachel. I really do think that, like, I mean, honestly, targeting Rachel would have been better for his game than yours because she was. She was still trying to work with you up until that point. But. But he. He backed off of It. And I think this was, like, really the start of when he. He started, like, losing the game, because this really was the move to make for him. After taking down Riley, you take out Rachel on the other side, you still have Morgan, you still have Lauren. He still has you. Now he becomes the center of everything. But. But he was just worried that she was gonna, I think, win the blockbuster or, you know, whatever. And so he backs off of the movie move, and. And you're telling him the right things, you know, like what? Like, if we've learned anything from Rachel, it's that you have to take the shot when you have it. Like, you know, all these things. It was. It was all. It was all correct stuff. Yeah.
- [167:22]
B
Damn, that was good.
- [167:24]
A
That was the thing where it was, like, I kept finding myself being, like, Keanu keeps, like, saying the right strategic thing to the people who are not doing the correct strategic thing, but they don't listen to Keanu because Keanu doesn't have the right reads on anything. So. Yeah, and.
- [167:41]
B
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like a lot of my incorrect reads were because, like I said, I was like, in the Truman Show.
- [167:48]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I think that. Yeah, I'm thinking through. Had my.
- [168:02]
B
Had my reality been. Had my reality been actual reality, do you think my reads would have been more correct?
- [168:09]
A
Well, it's hard to say, like, in terms of reads, like, there's. Your read on the house was always pretty decent. You read on, like, the strategic structure of the game and how it should be in order to, like, put you in a successful position was one of the better reads of the house. Like, you were correct. You should all get all. All the competition threats together. You can just steamroll if you, like. You don't have to be worried about the other side being mad at you if you're the ones in power, because they'll be running to you. That's all, like, good stuff that, like, a lot of players don't always recognize. When it came to, like, two people are telling you a different story, it just felt like I would not say that I would trust you to tell me which person's telling you the truth if my life depended on it. But here's the thing, and this kind of plays into some of the stuff that was talked about, is that one of the more accurate ways that people felt like they could predict who you would believe in any given scenario was that, you know, you tended to believe the. The men in the house more so than the women. And I've Heard that before.
- [169:29]
B
Come on, guys.
- [169:31]
A
So. So I'm sure part of that is that you were aligned with the men, but it did seem to extend beyond that sometimes where it was like. Like. Like, even people like Zay and Zach and people that you weren't as aligned with versus, you know, some of the accurate information you were being given by some of the other women later on, like, people like. Like Ashley. And it was. It was sort of like, if we want to predict where Keanu will go, it's, you know, like, where are. Where are the guys? Like, that's probably where he'll end.
- [170:08]
B
But I think a lot of that. I think a lot of that stemmed from, like, I feel like people are like, oh, my God, he's a misogynist. I was like, guys, maybe in the game itself, I could be perceived that way, because from the very beginning of the game, it was like I said earlier, Jimmy and the girls versus Kelly and the guys. So, you know, and I. And I would have the tendency to believe the guys because they weren't the ones that I thought were coming after me at the beginning. So that is where I built my base onward. And so not that I ever felt like all the girls were lying to me, I would have trusted Kelly, you know, unconditionally. I loved Kelly. Kelly was one of my strongest allies, I felt like, at least from my perspective, throughout the entire game. But she was in the same position I was. Nobody told her shit, or at least I didn't think they did. And she never really offered me too much information either, because I didn't think she got really much more information, if any more than I did.
- [171:01]
A
Yeah. And I.
- [171:02]
B
And Lauren the same way. I felt the same way about Lauren. I trusted Lauren as well. But, you know, she never really spoke to me either. And I never really saw her speaking to anybody too much outside events. And I thought I was getting the same information at events that she was getting.
- [171:16]
A
So it's a. It's a tricky thing, because even talking about it kind of, like, evokes very extreme reactions. And so, like, there was this sort of back and forth about, like, it seems like there might be a bias toward some of the men, and then a sort of response to that of, like, what do you mean? That's ridiculous. You can't say that he's, like, a misogynist. And I can tell you, at least from, like, the perspective that I have, like, it. When we talked about it on the podcast, in. In different. At different times, we did try to make it clear that we we don't think. And I don't think that you are. Are like, any kind of, like, misogynist or that you, like, have harbor any ill will toward women or anything like that. But what I find interesting about the show is that. And. And this doesn't have to be true for you, but, like, especially the ways in which people choose their allies at the start, the people that you initially gravitate toward, the people that you tend to believe a little bit more more, they tend to be the people that you relate to more. And we see that play out all the time on the show. And so those initial bonds that you gravitate toward then hold, like, more weight than other people. And these tiny little things that are not malicious, that are, you know, are not meant in any way to be sort of like an attack on anybody can kind of start to snowball out into things that end up having bigger ramifications in terms of, like, your position in the game or who you believe or whatever. And so, you know, listen, you know, you can call me woke or whatever, but, like, I find this stuff really interesting. And I. And I. I love the ability to talk about it without having to be like, this means that you're a bad person, or this means that, like, we're attacking anybody. I think that, like, being open and recognizing these things has a lot of value and whether it's in yourself or in other people. And again, I'm not saying it's true for you because you have your own experience, and I can't tell you what your experience is, but I think it's a valuable conversation to have.
- [173:32]
B
No, most, Most definitely, I. I would say that I don't disagree with people when I. When I say that that was built in that world, like, from the very beginning. I was set up to not feel that way. So, like, I'm not misogynistic in my everyday life, you know, but in this particular, you know, scenario, in this world, you know, I. My perspective from the very beginning was like Jimmy and the girls versus Kelly and the guys. So I was already, like, set up in that. In that way of thinking, and that was very hard for me to break through. I think I would say the only person in pockets that I ever trusted that was ever on the Jimmy and the girl side was Rachel. And even then, it took a long time for me to get there because it took me putting her on the block, then me asking her if we're good before I even won hoh and winning hoh and not putting her up to feel like okay, we can ride out into the sunset. We're good now. And then she got eliminated.
- [174:35]
A
Yeah, it was something that just. We're jumping ahead a little bit here, but it's relevant to this conversation that, like, you know, players like Mickey and even. Even Rachel, at one point, Ashley, some of the other women in the house did talk about this in the house as well, that they felt like that you were not as respectful in talking with women as you were with some of the men. And. And again, it's sort of like, I think that it all is. I personally, not knowing you that well, not being in your head, it never seemed malicious to me, and it really did seem to stem from the positioning. You were in the g. You. You had in the game, which, again, may have started with a little bit of that sort of, like, you gravitated toward, you know, the bros, the people that you can relate to more. But then through sort of some of this, like, I would say, confident communication style could certainly really rub some people the wrong way in those. In moments. And, you know, we're not here to try to solve sexism like that, you know.
- [175:49]
B
You know, what's funny is that. And. And Morgan and Mickey will tell you this straight out, is, like, on. On day, I want to say, like, two or something. We're all in the bathroom, like, me and, like, almost all the girls, and I was like, oh, God, it's so nice to have, like, this female energy around, because this is what I'm, like, used to. Because I have. I'm used to living with so many girls, and I wanted to work with all of them, and that's something that Morgan and Mickey specifically were like, that. That spoke to them, and they really wanted to work with me. But, you know, when Jimmy, you know, did what he did and kind of made me feel like Morgan and Mickey were the issue, that's something that totally got flipped on its head. So just kind of the way. Just kind of the way it shaked out. But. But initially, yeah, I felt very good. You know, in those first. First. First couple days, I felt very good with Morgan and Mickey specifically. So it's kind of funny that that ended up being, like, the people that I was kind of going after the most in the first half of the season.
- [176:44]
A
Yeah, I. So, I mean, you know, again, ultimately, I think that the way that I think about things is that it's. It's worth. It's always worth examining and, like, thinking about if people have a reaction to something like, where is this coming from? And, you know, is There a way that my own mind has been trapped in the sort of hegemonic structure of patriarchy, masculinity. Again, you can call me woke, but. But I. I think it's. I. I think it's. I think it's a very interesting topic, and I really think that there's a lot of value to exploring it in. In different ways, and especially when it comes to sort of, like, looking at the game and. And, you know, if we're. We're talking about, like, the other major thing that. That could sometimes impact you, whether it had to do with the scoffing or the way that you were communicating, sometimes it did feel very confident and at times condescending.
- [177:49]
B
Right.
- [177:49]
A
Or people in the house as they expressed. And so. So again, I don't think that you. Again, this is me. This is my own judgment. I can't speak for anybody. I never felt like you meant for it to be. I feel like you. You had these ideas of what was happening in your head, and you were trying to get those ideas across to people that were not listening to you.
- [178:17]
B
Right, right.
- [178:18]
A
So it really expresses itself in. In a strong way because of that. That. And I think that, like, maybe some of your mannerisms don't help with that. But. But again, that's. That was my own interpretation of it.
- [178:30]
B
Yeah, No, I would say. I would say that's correct. So, yeah, that's what I was talking about earlier, at least when. When we were talking about how I was speak to Vinnie, it was like I would just get so frustrated and. And to an extent, Rachel, too. I. I'm not sure who else, you know, felt that way. You said Ashley and Mickey, but I definitely know I spoke to Rachel that way. But that was. I felt really comfortable with Rachel and Vinny, me to be able to express myself fully. And, you know, Rachel did let me know a couple times there that she thought that I was talking down to her. And I even told her I was like, oh, well, if you feel that way, then I apologize, because I didn't mean to talk down to you. And I. And I fully recognized that I was like, I know how I can be when I'm, like, passionate about what I'm speaking about and what I'm saying is not coming across. So I could definitely. I could definitely see that.
- [179:13]
A
Yeah. And I think, again, especially given that I'm not the person that is primarily impacted by this sort of thing, but, like, my own personal stance on it is that when I see somebody that is willing to talk about these things and willing to take in criticism and be like, wow, if that's how other people feel about what I'm doing, then maybe I should think about what I'm doing and maybe I should try to, you know, try to operate in a way that doesn't elicit that kind of response, you know? Yeah, I think that's like. Like, that's really the sign of somebody who's willing to sort of, like, educate themselves for lack of better phrasing, because at the end of the day, everybody has biases, everybody has their own flaws, idiosyncrasies, and, you know, especially if you've never been on TV before with every single one of them being exposed to an audience of hundreds of thousands of live feeders, you know, you've never really probably had a chance to recognize them or. Or examine them in any significant way. And yeah, there's actually a really good.
- [180:25]
B
There's actually a really good book that I've read called Psycho Cybernetics. I think it's called that. That talks about that. So maybe I'll give that a reread. There you go.
- [180:35]
A
So, yeah, I mean, again, speaking for myself only, it's. It's a desire to learn and be better. That is the true quality that I look for in people. Because everyone's going to make mistakes, makes every. We exist in a society and a culture that is all kinds of messed up, and it influences everything we do. It infects every part of our being. And it's the people that really care about trying to better themselves and. And learn that I think are the people that I'm going to trust the most in my own interactions and with interactions with other people. So in that regard, like, like, I personally really, like, appreciate that you're even having this conversation with me.
- [181:17]
B
Yeah, absolutely, man. Thank you for having it with me. Everyone. Everyone was saying, you know, hey, come on his podcast and, you know, if you really want to get better and stuff like that, and shoot to even have be having like this actual conversation within the whole. Becoming better at the game conversation. I'm super grateful. So thank you.
- [181:35]
A
Cool. All right, well, let's get back to the. The. The game then. I guess I. The one thing more related to the game about this, something that I noticed that you would do in terms of some of the arguments that you would make, is you. You tended to gravitate toward an argument of it doesn't make sense for X person to do Y. I shouldn't. X and Y bad modifiers here. Like, for instance, when you were talking about Nominating Ashley. And it is this week, you know, Kelly wins the blockbuster, Catherine's evicted and you win the next hoh. Ultimately your goal is to take out Morgan. We know that doesn't happen. You have to renom Ashley. Your idea at the time was, well, I can nominate Ashley. She can't come for me because it doesn't make any sense. Sense for her. It doesn't make sense for her to target me. I don't know how much you really believed these arguments. This is like an example of the kind of argument that you would make where it's like, I can do this, she can't retaliate. It doesn't make any sense for her game, therefore she can't and therefore she won't. How much did you believe that? How much of that was you trying to like plant that idea in her head? I guess is a question.
- [182:53]
B
I, I thought that, that that was true because I felt at the time that Rachel was obviously her strongest ally.
- [183:05]
A
Yeah.
- [183:06]
B
And if Rachel and I were to make up that Rachel wouldn't want her to come after me anyway. Because a lot of people, I felt like at that time, at that time I felt like a lot of people still wanted Ashley out of the game. Like she had annoyed quite a few people obviously with the whole judges alliance that I obviously know that's not true now. Now I think maybe the only people that would have wanted her out and even then I didn't necessarily want her out because of my relationship with Rachel, but the only people that would have wanted her out of the game at that point was probably me and Kelly. Maybe where I had thought maybe it was a lot more than that.
- [183:44]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And I think something that I noticed was that some of the, some of those arguments like that one, I would say you had, you, you gravitated towards the ones that suited you more in the sense that like, and maybe this was like a whole thing sort of thought process because it was the same thing with who you chose to believe. It was like you often seemed to gravitate toward the easier truth than the more inconvenient one for you in the sense that like maybe I'm not as necessary to some of these people's games as I think I am and maybe I don't have the allies. I think I do. And what happens if that's true? And so your arguments about like, hey, you need me in this game, you can't target me, I would say weren't the most effective to the players you were talking to because they didn't believe A, that you had the right read on it in the first place, and B, like they were just annoyed you were trying to tell them that they needed you in the game.
- [184:52]
B
Well, yeah, I felt like I was most people shield until the jury phase. And then I felt like maybe Rachel would probably be one of the bigger threats just because they would want her to get out, because they didn't want her to win twice, you know, win the game twice. So I was very aware of where I stood in the hierarchy in terms of, like, people who they would want out. I figured I was either one or two. You know, it was either me or Rachel. So from that perspective, I felt like people did, did kind of need me in the game at least for a couple weeks because, you know, I would always be just like I was at the beginning. I would be the person that everyone would nominate easily.
- [185:32]
A
Yeah, I mean, I, I don't even necessarily say I would disagree in that instance. I think that you did have some value to some of the players. Although what I will say is at that point in the game, I, I personally don't think it was in anybody's interest to keep you around round because the danger of you just winning out was actually just far too high. The and because you were, I mean, you were close as it was. You know, if you survive the final five, you definitely win the dice HOH for final four years, which means you're guaranteed final three. You are almost definitely winning at least part two of the final three. HOH and then you're in the final three. Part three, final three, HOH with at least a 50, 50 shot of winning the entire game. And so it's like, I don't, I personally, I don't care how much of a shield you are. If you're that close to potentially winning out and like winning the game, you got to go. The first chance I get the chance, the opportunity.
- [186:32]
B
Yeah. I think I was trying to convince people also that I couldn't win, you know, the mental part of the final two or, you know, I'm gonna drop the ball at some point. And look, I did, you know, the tiny veto was not, was not my strong suit, so I dropped that one. But I, I, I would have felt comfortable in the mental, you know, comp of part, part of the final three. Hoh. But I was trying to convince people that I was not going to be good at that because I was not nearly as big of a super fan as like Morgan or Vince or Lauren or, you know what I mean?
- [187:04]
A
Yeah.
- [187:04]
B
So I Felt like I kind of had the ability to sway people in terms of letting them believe that I was a shield, at least for the first couple weeks. And then. And then target me all you want. You know, I even. I even told people that straight up, like, yo, you got to take me out at some point, but why don't you wait until this point?
- [187:22]
A
Yeah. And what I will say is, it's. It's actually very funny to me because Ashley has a very similar method of using. Of argument. Of arguing where she would say something with certainty, like, hey, you need me in this game. Or, like, hey, you know. You know, you beat me in this game. And I would say the difference is. And the reason why it worked better for her than it did for you is because when she said those things, like, she'd make predictions or she would tell people, like, this is how it's going to happen. This is what's going to happen. This is what is happening. She was like, right almost every time. And. And she kept getting proven right. And so when she said those things. Things, people started to take that for, like, for truth. Whereas unfortunately for you, you know, you were like, hey, Riley's got the votes. Hey, you know, Adrian's got the votes. You just kept being proven wrong over and over. So even though you were proven wrong, you were still making these declarative statements. And I think people were like, what is Keanu now? Like, he doesn't know. He's wrong all the time.
- [188:29]
B
Yeah. Yeah, I got you.
- [188:30]
A
Yeah. So you went, hoh. You're trying to target Morgan, which was the right target for you. If it had worked, it would have been great. You have the funniest conversation of the entire game with Vince about him going up. I. I did a full reenactment of the conversation.
- [188:56]
B
Oh, my God.
- [188:57]
A
Complete with Vince beanie. Yeah. It was a whole thing.
- [189:02]
B
You're gonna have to link that one to me. I want to see that. And then.
- [189:06]
A
And then he spends the rest of the day, the next day, like, moping around like, I'm gonna be malnourished because I'm a Have not too. So funny. Vince is such a character. I mean, he provided endless entertainment. Like, and. And the fact that he cared so much there, like, begging you, I'll do anything. It was just. It was so good. It's. You know, we really. We really owe. Owe Vince a debt this season.
- [189:38]
B
My God, dude, that was. That was embarrassing for me. I was like, please don't do that. Please do not do that.
- [189:44]
A
And you were. And it was Very cathartic, I think for a lot of people for you to really just like lay into him about like all of the ways that he has screwed you, you over in this game and he's made you look bad. He's made you look bad to your allies. He's, you know, he keeps saying like, you had a couple of good. I could probably pull up some of the, the quotes I wrote for, for this day. This must have been day. This was shortly before Mickey actually. I really thought Mickey was going to leave the week before. And so I, I made my Mickey interview notes early.
- [190:25]
B
Is that day 52?
- [190:27]
A
It's. Was it day 52 victing Kelly over? So, yeah, it would have been that night. Yeah. Here it is. Good call.
- [190:38]
B
I studied up. It's still in my brain.
- [190:44]
A
Oh, my God. And then Ava walks in in the middle of it. He says, says, this feels like a nightmare. Please don't put me up, man. And then Ava opens the door. Do you guys want to have tea? Yeah.
- [190:58]
B
Ava thing ever.
- [190:59]
A
She goes, what? Hi. And Vince is like still bare. You need to find this clip. It's. It's phenomenal. And, and so you have some, you have some really good banger lines these, these two days. Honestly, Vince, I'm at a point where you leaving isn't worst case scenario to me. If you go home, at least I can guarantee that none of my allies go home ever again. I'm an ally. How you were literally responsible for three of them going home. I traded three allies for one. Good stuff. Good stuff. He, of course, is never going to forget that. Not that it mattered, not that it would have changed anything. But he's often going to cite the fact that you nominated him is like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna show him. I'm gonna make him pay. So ultimately he goes up on the block with, with Mickey and Morgan and, and then really it's just like, you know, waiting for a little while. The veto happens. Morgan wins. It's the stacking comp. She. She needed it and she got it.
- [192:19]
B
She came up clutch for sure.
- [192:21]
A
Very much so. And this is when all the drama happens with the Renam. There's a lot of push from Rachel and then there's the whole veto plan. There's a lot that happens here. You were set. You were set from the start. It was always going to be Ashley. There was. I mean, I don't think anybody even came close to changing your mind.
- [192:43]
B
No, not even, not even close.
- [192:47]
A
And the danger here was that the more they push you, the More ammo you have to use against them afterward.
- [192:53]
B
Right, Right. You know, the funny thing, too, was, like, I didn't want Ashley to go home. I didn't want my norms to change.
- [192:59]
A
You know what I mean?
- [193:00]
B
Or even if they did, I really had my mindset on Morgan going home, so I didn't want Ashley to go home. But, yeah, at least I was transparent with Rachel at the beginning.
- [193:08]
A
And.
- [193:09]
B
And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I felt like I told Ashley, too. I don't recall telling her that she wasn't gonna be one, period.
- [193:16]
A
Yeah, you. You did make it clear, because I noted it when I was like, oh, okay. I think Ashley might be a Renam, because he's specifically saying that. He's only saying she's safe for the initial nom.
- [193:27]
B
Okay, that's what I thought I said. But then when she told me in the. Her whole, little, you know, Renam thing, when she told me, like, and you told me I was safe, I was like. Like, I did.
- [193:37]
A
I think. Well, I will say you were much more clear with Rachel about it than Ashley. And it's also the case of, like, they might not have. I think Rachel had to have known, because you're very clear with Rachel. It's possible Ashley misinterpreted you or misremembered, but it's also possible that she was just lying to make you look bad, because why would. Right. Yeah. Right. So all this pushback, there's. You try to convince Ava to vote Ashley out by. By revealing the information about what they're trying to push for Ava to go up on the block. Ultimately, this doesn't work. And. And this is, I would say, largely because Ashley's doing phenomenal work this week as well, bonding with Ava and convincing Ava that she wants to work with Lauren, too. And so all this is happening. Rachel tries to do this, like, alliance with you. You get into. You really get into it with Rachel. She's really trying her best to hold back and not say that she's going to target you if you put Ashley up. But it's absolutely what she means. And so you keep trying to bait her into saying Ava's name, and then she finally takes the bait, and you run it right back. It's just funny stuff.
- [195:00]
B
Yeah. I mean, I didn't. I didn't believe. I didn't believe Rachel at that point either, because like you said earlier, you know, maybe m. Misguided confidence, but I felt like moving into the jury phase. She was the largest target. So if I'm Gone. She's next.
- [195:19]
A
Yeah, I, I, I haven't spoken to her yet. I think at that time she, she had never forgotten that you were going to target, you were trying to get Vince to target her the week before and then, and then basically lied to her about it. So I think she had lost a significant amount of trust with you at that point when you were trying to make it up to her. She was like, listen, I'll take it, but I'm not going to forget about last week. So ultimately, I think whether or not you, I mean, the thing is, the thing too is that, like, people will feel that way in the moment, but then after another week of you actually keeping her safe, wave, there's definitely a chance she turns around on it, especially because she did have some bigger fish to fry at least. But, but who knows, who knows what would have actually happened ultimately, though, with Ashley going up? I think she probably would have. I mean, she was definitely gunning for you, Lauren or Kelly. And if there had been three noms, those probably would have been the three noms if she had won hoh. But you also, of course, are. She's trying to push Lauren on you. And this is when you have that conversation where you say, you can't, you can't put Lauren up because you're not gonna put an ally up. And she goes, oh. And you realize Lauren was an ally and you're like, oh, she's not an ally. She's just, she's just somebody that wouldn't put me up. She's like, I don't know about that. And you're like, listen. She's like, if you think, if you think she won't put you up, up, that's all right. All right, Keanu. And to be fair to you, I don't think Lauren intended to put you up immediately necessarily.
- [196:58]
B
But I don't think, I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that Lauren would have put me up if Rachel didn't go home to the hamster wheel.
- [197:07]
A
Oh, she was planning to target Rachel first. She had a whole season.
- [197:10]
B
So that was my whole point because I told Rachel too. I was like, is she going to put me up? Yes, at some point, but I don't think she's going to do it anytime soon. I didn't realize I was like, her third target.
- [197:20]
A
Yeah, you, yeah, basically, I think order of operations would have been Rachel Morgan. You.
- [197:25]
B
Right. That's what I had thought as well, which meant in my head I had, like, at Least a week of, you know, Lauren HOH or 2 to. To go skate on by. Because at that point, I thought Lauren was going to start picking up steam and winning a lot more comps because the field was getting smaller.
- [197:42]
A
Little did you know the final destination hamster wheel was coming to strike. Like, Rachel maybe in the place that she was in trouble in BB13.
- [197:51]
B
Oh, my God.
- [197:54]
A
So. So, yes. There's a lot of drama there. Then you come up with this plan. Could you get Morgan to use the veto on Vince and Keanu? There were many times this season where I was losing my mind, and this is one of those times. Times. Because I felt like the two of you, you and Vince could barely even remember the argument that you used on Morgan.
- [198:22]
B
Because it didn't make sense. It didn't make sense for her to do it at all. No. Trying to make it sound like it made sense. This is an epic move that'll go down in BB history forever. But, like, not on your side side.
- [198:38]
A
You kept saying, listen, Morgan, I can't trade one for one. I can only trade two for one. And she'd be like, yeah, I get that. I'd be like, what do you mean, you get what? You get what? What does that even mean? Repeat it back to me, Morgan, what does it mean? Keanu can't even tell me what it means.
- [198:56]
B
I know, dude.
- [198:57]
A
It was.
- [198:58]
B
I was trying to tell Vince. I was like, all right, wait, hold up. So wait, how did we phrase this again? So that we. Yeah, so it was so funny because, like, I knew. I. I knew that it didn't make any bit of sense, and there was so many holes in the argument, but I was just trying to butter it up and make it. Make it so delicious for her to just sink her teeth into that. She would totally do it.
- [199:16]
A
I could not believe it. And she was. I don't know how much, you know that she was going to do it. Like, she was down. She was talking to Vince about it. She talked to Will about it, and Will was like, yeah, you use the beat on yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sounds good. I don't know if you've gotten to this part in the episodes, but Will has a whole running thing in the diary room where he says, yeah, I don't listen half the time. People talk to me. I'm not listening. Which once he said, it made so much sense.
- [199:48]
B
That's so funny. Oh, my God.
- [199:51]
A
Character, man.
- [199:52]
B
I love that guy, people.
- [199:54]
A
Oops, wrong one. Folks love Captain Will. Folks love Captain Will.
- [200:00]
B
There you go. Hey, it's A fact.
- [200:04]
A
She is. She goes to Ashley and Ashley says, don't do that. That would be stupid. And then she starts to, like, be like. Then she talks to Rachel, and Rachel's like, that's a bad idea. And then they. They come up with this instead. Like, oh, well, if he's willing to put up Lauren, let's make an alliance and get him to put up Lauren in. And then that's when they do the whole pitch in the HOH room with you guys. It's very awkward. Standoff.
- [200:29]
B
Oh, 100 standoff. I called that off, like, immediately.
- [200:32]
A
Well, standoff in the sense that, like, Vince and Morgan were like, let's.
- [200:37]
B
Oh, get out of here.
- [200:37]
A
Yeah.
- [200:39]
B
Yeah. I don't know how many people in the history of Big Brother have, like, denied alliances, but I was like, guys, that the fact that the stipulation is don't put Ashley at big, Just please get out of the room.
- [200:52]
A
And then you start to, like, realize, well, now that, like, all of this has happened, we don't even need to do this because we can maybe get the votes with Ava. And Vince was like, no, no, we. No, we still need this to happen. We need the veto used on me. And he spent, like, the entire night still trying to get Morgan to do it. And she was just like, I'm sorry. Like, I'm sorry. Ultimately, she doesn't do it. Ashley goes on the block, she calls you out, and it's again, one of those. Yet another ceremonial back and forth.
- [201:31]
B
Yeah.
- [201:35]
A
And. And then from there, it's. It's really just a. It's. It's Ashley versus Vince, who's gonna win over Ava's vote, and we pretty quickly. It's. It's not even a contest or. You know what? There was a little bit of last minute hesitation for me. You almost put up Rachel that you. You woke up that morning and you were like, why am I putting up Ashley? If putting up Ashley is basically putting up Rachel, I might as well just put up Rachel.
- [202:02]
B
Yeah. Yeah. That was the thought process for Vinnie's. Vinnie's hoh as well. But then I was like, we don't. We don't even have the numbers anymore to do it, so there's no point in. No point in doing it. And I felt like I had kind of rebuilt a little bit of our relationship, so I was like, you know what?
- [202:18]
A
Just.
- [202:19]
B
We'll put that on the back burner.
- [202:23]
A
So Ashley goes up and she ends up. It was no contest between her and Vinny. She just completely just. She had Ava locked In turns out we don't know where Mickey actually would have voted. Turns out Mickey might have voted. Ashley. We don't know because Mickey also said she had a hat from t corps. So, like, you know, who knows what Mickey really means? Wow. But. But either way, this leads to Mickey's eventual eviction and we head into week nine, where, of course, the hamster wheel of death happens and Rachel leaves. Nobody liked this. No. No. Nobody even in the house. Like this.
- [203:13]
B
Yeah, that didn't. That didn't feel good. That did not feel good.
- [203:20]
A
Like, to this point, most of the storyline in the season, like, strategically, it was like, who is going to take the first shot at Rachel? You know, what's gonna happen with the frenemies? What's gonna happen? Rachel versus Vince, you know, like, all of this stuff. Who's gonna be the first one to finally put Rachel on the block? And then it's just. It's just over. Very, very frustrating. And. And you have this great shot. They actually make a montage. You might have seen a clip because it's pretty funny. You're sitting on the. At the kitchen table looking at the memory wall and talking about, like, I didn't want to be them. I wanted to be you. And they start playing, like, clips of, like, memories with you and Rachel.
- [204:05]
B
Yeah, I've seen that one.
- [204:06]
A
That's funny.
- [204:08]
B
Yeah, it was true, man. I mean. I mean, I'm sure a lot of the live feeders saw this, but I was, like, very. She was like, why would you take me to the final two if you think I'm going to beat you? And I was like, well, my thought process was if I make my resume so undeniable with, like, comp wins that you couldn't vote against me. I would much rather beat someone that has some sort of standing in the community than one of these, as she would put it, newbies. So I was very. I was very adamant about, you know, actually, you know, wanting her to us to be in the final two.
- [204:38]
A
Yeah.
- [204:38]
B
So. So when she left, I was really, like, kind of sad about it because I was like, well, there goes that. And also there goes my shield during the jury phase.
- [204:48]
A
Yeah, this was. This ultimately turned out to be. I mean, in one way, it was a good thing for you because it advanced. Like, if. If ultimately your win, win condition was win out, it got you through another round. Right. Like, so that's. That's nice. But on the other hand, it did take out a shield, and you kind of needed that shield, especially when Lauren wins this hoh.
- [205:16]
B
Right.
- [205:17]
A
Which you didn't even get to compete for.
- [205:20]
B
I know. That bothered me, man.
- [205:22]
A
Yeah. So Lauren's goal, which is the correct goal, is either Morgan or you, needs to leave on her HOH 1000%. That should be her goal. Morgan, number one, you. Number two. Makes a ton of sense. In order to accomplish that goal, she needs both you and Morgan on the block come the blockbuster. So initial noms matter, but it's fine that she doesn't nominate you initially, especially if she wants to keep a good relationship with you. But that's her goal from the start of the week. You or Morgan. Preferably Morgan. The problem is that in order to make that happen, she needs to put you on the block even if you don't go home. Right. You need to be on because if. If you're not on the block against Morgan on the block, but at the blockbuster, her Morgan's just going to beat Will and Ashley and whoever else she nominates.
- [206:15]
B
Like I.
- [206:16]
A
Exactly. And then she doesn't get either one of you. So she needs you both in the blockbuster so that one of you has to lose and one of you has to be evicted. But in order to do that, she needs to be bold and take the step of using the veto and putting you on the block, even though she intends for you to stay. And so she throws the veto. The BB comics. She's like, I don't want to win because if I win, I'll have to, like, either not use it and that'll piss Morgan off or use it and piss Keanu off and she should just win it and use it and guarantee one of you leave. But she decides instead to throw it. She. She waits by the button and just stands there. Wow. So she.
- [206:59]
B
So she. She actually would have won.
- [207:01]
A
She threw it through it and really, really feels like she'd won it because she's only 20 seconds behind.
- [207:06]
B
Wow. Yeah. I remember when they. When they posted it, she was like 20 or 30 seconds behind. Yeah.
- [207:10]
A
Yeah.
- [207:10]
B
Wow. Damn low.
- [207:13]
A
I think you. I think you knew this. I think everyone knew this, but Vince also threw it.
- [207:17]
B
Yeah, we all knew that.
- [207:18]
A
Yeah, he. But he. He claims in the episode he didn't, but we watch him do it, and he's, like, frolicking around like, no rush, takes an extra ride on the zip line, and then is like, man, I tried my hardest. It's like, no, you didn't mean. But Lauren throws this, and I think this was. I mean, Lauren, of course, made a few mistakes throughout the game. I think this was the most damning I think this cemented her. Her ruination in the game. She really needed to beat Morgan in this veto and make sure that you and Morgan were on the block at the blockbuster. She throws it, Morgan wins, and that leaves her to nominate you, which is her only move. But. But it's a very low percentage move because as Ashley immediately states, like, all right, Will, you versus me.
- [208:06]
B
Right?
- [208:07]
A
We're not beating Keanu.
- [208:09]
B
Right?
- [208:10]
A
Right.
- [208:11]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I wish it would. I wish it would have been me and Morgan. I feel. I don't know who would have won in that. That cage one. I felt like I was moving pretty fast, but yeah, that was. That was for sure. And I. And I. I even told. I believe I told her that too. I was like, hey, listen, from here on out, there's only see, you know, four or five more evictions. You got to get one of us big competitors out before the end or, you know, you. You gotta account for the fact that you're gonna probably miss one shot. You don't want this week to be one of them.
- [208:40]
A
Yeah, I mean, you were crushing that. The untangle cage competition, you did run into a snag right at the end where Ashley was starting to catch up. So maybe if Morgan doesn't have any mistakes, there's a chance she might have beat you, but who knows?
- [209:01]
B
Yeah.
- [209:04]
A
There is, of course, the decision between Ashley and Will. Everyone thought Ashley was just straight up done, like no shot. Like, why would anybody keep Ashley over Will when Will has like a bad back, is definitely not going to win a comp. I said that like, I mean, Will is the ideal person to take the final three. Three because it's basically impossible for him to even make it to part three of the final three. Hoh.
- [209:28]
B
Right.
- [209:29]
A
And nobody's gonna take him to final two because he's too likable. So getting there, getting two of you to final three with Will is like the ideal situation if you have, you know, another person that you want to be there with. But. But it's ultimately you and Morgan that really push and, you know, Vince follows Morgan that decide to keep Will around now for you. It does make a bit more sense, I would say, because you need every extra target, you know, available to you. Not that it ultimately mattered, but tell me about your conversations with. With Ashley this. This week that really, like, got you because your. Your relationship really starts to turn around at this point.
- [210:13]
B
Yeah, I think. I think once Rachel went home, you know, it really kind of like bolstered our working relationship because I knew that I didn't have anybody. You know, I had Kelly. Kelly couldn't win anything outside of a blockbuster, so that wasn't useful to me. But at least she was a number. And, you know, I figured Ashley could maybe be a number for me as well. You know, we had Rachel in common. We were both, you know, sad about her going home. And, you know, at least we had something common ground around to talk about. So, you know, I just kind of saw value in at least having her not hate me. And. And, yeah, I felt like maybe she could be just someone else that I could kind of scheme with outside of. Outside of Kelly, really. Because Vince, I felt like at this point, I realized how close he was with Morgan, but I don't know why.
- [211:09]
A
I just.
- [211:09]
B
I just couldn't get out of my own head about feeling like, like, you know, my loyalty to him would probably win out. And obviously, I was wrong.
- [211:19]
A
Yeah, I mean, there was a way that you looked at it. And this. This happens with showmances often. Again, not that. Not that I'm calling them a showmance necessarily.
- [211:28]
B
They operated like one, though, as you said. I mean, like, that, too, so.
- [211:33]
A
But the thing about, like, showmances is that I completely lost my train of thought. What were you saying?
- [211:43]
B
Oh, that.
- [211:45]
A
Oh, right. So you. You were. The way that you would sometimes look at it was like. And it's the same thing Lauren did. Lauren made the same mistake that was like, man, if only, like, Morgan would stop influencing Vince. Like, Morgan is the reason Vince is doing the things that are causing me frustration. And to some degree, that's true. But on the other hand, like, it. It allowed, like, that perception was part of what allowed Vince to keep getting away with, like, oh, it's not Vince. It's Morgan that's the problem. And. And especially when it came to Lauren, it was just like, lauren, you're talking to the wrong person. You need to be talking to Morgan if you want to fix things with you and Vince and Morgan. And it was the, like, it was this sort of, like, allowing Morgan to take this. This heat in the hopes that you could win over Vince that just kept both of you in this trap, this cycle of just, like, you know, doing all of this work to convince the guy who was just like, listen, I'm just the receptionist here.
- [212:54]
B
Like, you know, yeah, man, I. I really. I really thought, you know, eventually I would be able to be able to win him over. Especially once. Especially once Morgan started going on her little streak of veto wins there. I was like, dude, she's way more of A locked to win it than I am. Like, I. But I guess he was able to. She was able to convince him that I had a better story or whatever. And, and you know, I don't know if you guys saw this, but in the jury house, they did tell me that that's straight up, that they would have voted if I was in the finals. They would have voted for me. And I was like, oh, shit. Okay. I didn't even realize I had, like, such good standing with you guys.
- [213:29]
A
Yeah, I mean, I'd heard that, you know, and that's. That's. I would say there's. There's two parts to that from my perspective. One is that, like, winning so many competitions, winning your way to the end is always going to be like an immense leg up when it comes to a jury vote. But in addition to that, like, you did start, start, despite occasionally still having some slip ups, like we talked about with Ashley, you did start to really, I would say, like, evolve your social game as you're standing in the house started to grow. You know, you started to make a little bit more progress. And especially when it came to players like Rachel, even Kelly, who, you know, Ashley tries to warn you not to trust Kelly. And then you talk to Kelly and then she immediately again then rats you out and complains to Vince about you to Vince. And it's. It was like, oof. Like, it just really every time he gets. Starts to get somewhere. Because the problem is Kelly was more loyal to Lauren and Kelly was actually advocating to Lauren to not put you up. She was saying she should do Vince. But once she did put you up, she kind of flipped the scripts and was like, all right, screw Keanu. Then like, you know, like, yeah, he's. He's trying to get. Because there was this whole drama where you caught her saying to Vince that he. You were trying to get Vince on the block or something. And then she denied it, even though it was true. And. And then, you know, things deteriorated from there. But. But the point is that you did actually have like an actual relationship with. With Kelly and I. And I think you also developed a decent woman with Lauren. I think that she felt good enough about you. You. And I don't know where Ava would have voted. I don't know if she ever, like, fully came around on you, but, like, like, you really did win your way into it. But also, like, once you had more footing. I think part of what we talked about, the start of this podcast, which was that like, a lot of this came from we're social Standing in the first place. Like, some of that proved to be true once you elevated your social status slightly toward the end of the game. Game. Okay. All right. So of course you get nominated, you win the blockbuster. Vince wins the next hoh. This is a lot of drama that doesn't involve you all that much.
- [216:01]
B
Lauren thing. Oh, my God.
- [216:02]
A
A lot of Morgan and Ashley and Morgan and Morgan convincing Vince to put up Lauren. He has an incredibly funny conversation with Lauren right before nominations where he's, like, begging her to allow him to put her on the block.
- [216:21]
B
Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please.
- [216:23]
A
I'll say please a hundred times.
- [216:25]
B
Please, please, please.
- [216:25]
A
Let's just do it. Let's just do it. Come on. Come on. Let's do it. Let's do it, Lauren. Let's do it. No. Like, no.
- [216:32]
B
Oh, my God.
- [216:35]
A
And so he ultimately doesn't do it, which of course makes Morgan mad.
- [216:41]
B
And.
- [216:42]
A
And then Morgan wins the veto, and there's more conversations and there's all kinds of back and forth, and of course you're involved. This is also where, like, there's all of this talk of, like, you know, one of the reasons why Vince is trying to justify putting you on the block is the. The. What was it? Che, Cheater island or whatever.
- [217:11]
B
Oh, yeah, Yeah.
- [217:13]
A
I was like, Vince, you know, if you use this because it wasn't the real reason he put you up. It was a. It was a pretend reason to. To. To make it seem like he wasn't against you strategically, that he was just hurt that you said this comment. I was like, yeah, you're creating a reason that is going to be used in the episodes, dude. Like, like, pick something else, man. Like, this wouldn't make the episodes if you didn't use it. But, you know, you do you. So he.
- [217:44]
B
He.
- [217:44]
A
He is. Again, just all kinds. I have a bunch of notes, hear about all the stuff that Morgan's doing here. But. But ultimately, Lauren does go up. Lauren would have. You would have voted Lauren if you had won this blockbuster. Ashley and Morgan were also planning to vote more Lauren. Then when it came to Lauren versus you, if Kelly had won, Vince was planning to keep Lauren. And then Kelly versus you, he was planning to keep you, which he did. Lauren was trying to get him to keep Kelly, and he was promising Lauren that he would keep Kelly. But of course, Morgan and Ashley at this point really wanted you to stay because they recognized that if Kelly, Lauren, and Ava all stayed in the game, it would be way too powerful. And at this point, you had, you know, done enough work with Morgan and you had this deal with Ashley and so they felt good about keeping you around. So they were really pushing for Vince to keep you. And I would say if he had his way, I feel like he was actually leaning toward keeping Kelly, but he was not going to go against what Morgan wanted. So. So ultimately that's what happens. You, how did you feel about this blockbuster? Because we, I felt like you'd have an advantage here.
- [219:12]
B
You know what, dude, I, I mean, if, if you guys could only see how many balls I to the rest of that. Well, that's why I doubled, I doubled the amount of balls that Lauren got. But I could not, I guess the people were telling me like, if I had I gone with like a two hand strategy, so it dropped straight down. I figured if I reached further down with one, I would be able to get it in easier. But yeah, this was, this was probably like the only one where I did not operate under the whole slow and steady wins the race sort of thing. Yeah, I just, for some reason I just like, I didn't change my strategy. I felt like my strategy was sound but the balls just were not going in. And, and yeah, as I started like, you know, basically doing shuttle runs and my heart rate started going up and going crazy, it just made it more and more difficult. So. Yeah, yeah, that was, that was a difficult one for sure.
- [220:04]
A
Yeah, I don't know if it was. I don't know if it's two hands necessarily because I do think that taking advantage of your longer reach is going to be huge. Huge. But something I noticed was that I think because you were going so fast, the difference between how you were dropping the balls and how Lauren was is that Lauren was spending a little bit more time to make sure she was completely still before she let go. And then the ball went straight down and you got, you were almost still, but you had just a little bit of movement left most of the time when you dropped it. And so your ball would kind of veer off at an angle.
- [220:39]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [220:40]
A
So just a little bit more patience I think probably was the key there, but I've never done it myself. All right, so it's the double eviction though. Morgan wins the next hoh. She nominates you. And Lauren, you win this veto. And this is my favorite visual of you in the season jumping over the. The boots. This is, this is great. Great. You have to have seen the gif of this. People love this.
- [221:09]
B
Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People are making fan art of it. And everything. I love it. I got a lot of shit for that in the jury house. So they're like, why would you do that? You're so arrogant. I was like, oh, give me a break. Give me a break.
- [221:26]
A
Then we get to the final five, and this was interesting. So this v. This HOH Competition, again, from my perspective, kind of frustrating because. Because this. This competition last season lasted nine hours, and Angela and Leah were, like, two of the, you know, best people at it. And this competition, Ava and Ashley couldn't even hold the thing up for more than, like, 30 minutes because it was too heavy. I was like, we really needed to make it this heavy. Like, come on.
- [221:56]
B
It actually, you know, it. It really wasn't. It really wasn't heavy. It was just a really, like, tricky. Like, I don't know when you. When you guys started being able to view it, it. But, like, it took. It took Ashley, like, 10 minutes, almost be able to get that disc on the thing and just keep it up. So we were surprised at how long she lasted, just in general.
- [222:13]
A
Yeah.
- [222:14]
B
Because it took her so long to be able to get it up in the first place, but, yeah, it wasn't, like. It wasn't, like, particularly heavier. Well, I mean, it's easy for me to say that, but, yeah, I didn't really think it would be too different than how it was last year. It looked pretty much identical. The only difference was, instead of that marshmallow, it was a thinner disc.
- [222:34]
A
Yeah.
- [222:34]
B
I think more pressure needed to be applied.
- [222:37]
A
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And. And, like, Ava was like, yeah, my arms just gave out, like, trying to push it in hard enough. So comes down to you and Vince, and. And this is really, like. Because, you know, the. The stacking comp is one thing. You know, the final four, the final five veto is technically the last chance you had to save yourself. But this was like. This was your comp. Right. Like, this was really the moment, and it came down to you and Vince, and. And in many ways, it kind of was kind of like the. The poetic ending. Right. Like, all season long, you had trusted Vince too much. And in this moment, you're kind of letting your guard down in the competition because you think you think you're good, and you think you're just chatting with your buddy, but really unbeknownst to you, like, your life is on the line. Yeah.
- [223:30]
B
Did it show that in the episode? By the way, he and I talk in the gym before.
- [223:36]
A
Did they show it on the episode? That's a good question.
- [223:38]
B
Did you guys even see it? On the live feeds.
- [223:42]
A
I'm. I mean, what specifically are you referring to conversations?
- [223:45]
B
Because we. We spoke. We spoke in the.
- [223:48]
A
The reason.
- [223:48]
B
I'm wondering if we. If you guys even saw it on the live feeds because there was a lockdown. Lockdown in the gym afterwards. So I'm not sure if the live feeds were even on, but he and I had basically locked in a final two in the gym right before the hoh. So he was like. I was like, dude, listen, like, we're in the home stretch here, dude. Me and you can run the table. I can win every single veto from here on out. You can win every single hoh and we could just make it to final two. And he was like, yeah, dude, that sounds, like, amazing. You know, I told him. I was like, listen, Morgan is a lock to win over me, bro. And he was just like, I don't know, because you got the veto and stuff like that. And I, like, was like, bro, she just won another hoh. Like, are you kidding me? Like, we have the same amount of comp wins, but this is all fresh in everyone's head. Plus, I'm upsetting other people. Like, she hasn't upset anybody. She's a lock to win. And he's like, okay, you're right. You're right. And I was like, okay, so we're good. Right? And so we locked in, like, a final two. And then that's why I really, like, took it easy on that one, because I was like, well, if I'm safe either way, I'll just win the final four hoh, Guarantee myself the final three and win that.
- [224:47]
A
Yeah. Which, I mean, you know, it's. Again, like, if. If you had been right.
- [224:51]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [224:52]
A
Yeah. That is the correct strategy because the final five HOH is the worst HOH to win in the entire season because it means you can't compete in the final four hoh, which means you're one of three people vulnerable at final four, which sucks. But. But yeah, ultimately. Ultimately, you weren't right.
- [225:12]
B
Let me ask you this real quick, because this was my. This was my thought process on. People are like, like, oh, you could have won if you just won the final five hoh, blah, blah, blah, this and that. But my personal opinion is I would have had a more clear path to winning had I voted for Ava to leave over Lauren in the previous eviction because Lauren would have stayed my shield. Like, let's say everything still plays out the same. Like, Morgan still wins the final five veto and she keeps noms the same. And it's me and Lauren up there.
- [225:42]
A
There.
- [225:42]
B
Do you still think that Morgan and Ashley vote for Lauren to leave? Because in that if that's the case, then I would win the final four hoh because the dice had been practicing all season long.
- [225:51]
A
Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. So. Well, okay, it does presume that Morgan gets Vince to put Lauren up again, which I assume she probably does.
- [226:03]
B
Well, even if. Even if he doesn't, let's say he puts me and Ashley up, but Morgan wins the veto anyway, uses it on Ashley, then forces Lauren to go up.
- [226:11]
A
Right? Yeah, I think I would.
- [226:15]
B
I was under the assumption that they would still probably vote for her to leave because, you know, Vincent Lauren reasons.
- [226:22]
A
I think that's probably true. I think they'd be pretty upset with you for voting Ava out over Lauren. But it's like, what choice do they have? They can't leave Lauren and Vince in the game still. So yeah, if Morgan's is left off the block, she can force Lauren on the block. Regardless list they vote out Lauren. You compete at final four, you win the final four. Hoh. That's. Yeah, that's probably given the competition results. Well, would Lauren have won the final five? Hoh is maybe a question.
- [226:54]
B
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely that what if. But I was just under the assumption that everything still played out the same.
- [226:59]
A
Yeah, I mean, if everything plays out the same, I think that's better than winning the final five hoh because you in the final four. H. Final four HOH is I would say, like, like not a guaranteed win, but a pretty close to guarantee.
- [227:10]
B
No, that was a guarantee, bro. I had been practicing that game the entire season.
- [227:13]
A
I know.
- [227:15]
B
That was a guarantee for sure. I was so upset when I saw that that's what it was. I was like, oh, my God.
- [227:21]
A
There's always a chance that you like trip. You know what I mean?
- [227:23]
B
Yeah, that's true. That's true, that's true.
- [227:25]
A
But I honestly though with the. The way it plays out, like with you have to get to a score of 3 actually is better for you because you're winning more often than average. And so like, even if there is a freak accident on one of the rounds, you have plenty of others.
- [227:42]
B
Yeah, that's true.
- [227:43]
A
That's true. But whereas if you had one final five HOH and you have to compete at final four veto. I actually don't know if you beat Morgan there because Morgan did that fast that final for. So yeah, according to Ashley, she like, I mean, granted, you know, this is from Ashley's perspective But, like, like, she was like, like Morgan never once messed up. She was doing it super fast the entire time. She got it done super, super quickly. So would have been interesting to see.
- [228:10]
B
Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely my, like, what if of the season.
- [228:14]
A
Yeah.
- [228:15]
B
Yeah. The only reason I even voted for, I voted emotionally there, not strategically. I knew the right move was to vote avow, but then when Lauren came up to me and she was like, hey, if you keep me in, I'll be your shield. And I was like, that's a funny argument that I made to you when you put me up on your hoh. And then I was like, yeah, screw that. I'm voting you out. And so that was like my biggest bugaboo right there.
- [228:37]
A
Well, that's one of those things. If that hadn't been a double eviction, there's probably a good chance that, like, over the course of an entire week. Yeah.
- [228:45]
B
I would be able to think clearly. Yeah.
- [228:47]
A
You know, it's wild how. How much that those sorts of things can change things. So, yeah. Even after the hoh win, Vince is telling you he's not going to put you up and that he's. He knows he can't beat Morgan and he's not going to go to the end with Morgan. And then after the conversation with you, he tells the cameras, I'm going to the end with Morgan, and I'm not. I'm not putting her up. Ashley was really heavily considering if she had won the veto trying to take Morgan out there, but ultimately it doesn't matter because she doesn't win the final four final five veto. Morgan does. And. And this was just like a slow and painful death for you in the game because you all thought that you were immediately going to leave. And then it was like, nope, actually two more days of just.
- [229:42]
B
Yep.
- [229:42]
A
Waiting around, making some campaigns that, you know, obviously people aren't going to take. And. And you did make a campaign to Ashley. She turned it down. And I think, especially given the result, I think we can say probably rightfully so. But, you know, obviously a lot of jury management happening, especially from Ashley and I guess not from Vince. The opposite from Vince. Yeah.
- [230:08]
B
People are like, oh, bitter jury. Bitter jury. I'm like, guys, that's part of the game. Like, you know.
- [230:14]
A
Yeah. It's also like. And that's the thing, too, like, people. It wasn't really in the episodes how much she, like, Ashley was talking to you and, like, really, like, trying to explain parts of her game saying, you'll. You'll see some more things after you. After you leave. And. And in the meantime, like, Vince just continuing to really. To lie most of the time, like, oh, well, I plan to take out Morgan. Don't worry. Or like, like, oh, wanted to do this. And it's like, yeah, those things are going to matter. It doesn't mean that you won't vote for that person. But, like, they're not making it easy, you know?
- [230:53]
B
Right, right. Yeah. I thought. I thought Ashley played. I mean, especially once I found out, like, all the different things she was doing behind the scenes, I definitely felt like she had played a good game. You know, I felt like Vince had played a better game, but his jury management was just so shitty that I couldn't justify voting for him after how many times he lied to me, you know? I mean.
- [231:12]
A
Yeah, so. So that's it. You go to the jury house and what. Tell me about the jury house. Because I haven't had a chance to. To ask anybody about the. The jury house shenanigans.
- [231:27]
B
No, I mean, the. The jury house. Honestly, the. At that point, aside from talking about who we're possibly going to vote for and this and that, the game is over. So we're just playing Mario Party. They're making jury house alliances against me in Mario Party to make sure I don't win in. Because I was a cop beast in that too, of course. So now the jury house was fun. You know, still got into a couple little arguments here and there with Rachel because she was cheating at cards against humanity. I was like, who cheats and cards against humanity?
- [231:56]
A
How do you cheat the cards against humanity?
- [231:58]
B
You put in. You put in more of the answer cards so you have a higher chance of winning.
- [232:02]
A
Oh, interesting. I guess I. I know I've heard from you about, like, where your vote would have been in. If Vince had cut Morgan, you would have voted for Vince. If Morgan had cut Vince, you would have voted for Morgan. And if Ashley had cut Morgan as she did, you would vote for Ashley. Do you? Obviously, you can't speak for anyone else. There has been some talk about, like, what happens if Morgan had won part three, she had cut Vince and taken Ashley. And I think crucially, like, Ashley has the same sort of, like, final two questioning performance, and we actually. You. You might not have seen this, but we actually know a good amount of what Morgan's speech would have been, and it was pretty similar to Vince's overall. They practiced together. So in your eyes, is that close. A close vote between Ashley and I.
- [233:02]
B
I think from what I gathered in the jury house and Obviously, I can't actually speak for everybody, but. But based off of the jury roundtable and I'm not sure what they showed, you know, in the episode and stuff like that, the general consensus was like, Morgan was pretty much going to win because she didn't really piss people off. You know, everyone felt as if she was the one running a lot of Vinnie's hohs for the most part. You know, at the end of the day, she was the one that brought them into the judges in the first place, and she won a lot of those competitions and saved her ass when she needed to and. And solidified a lot of the moves that Vinnie made on his hohs anyway by winning those vetoes. So from my understanding, Morgan probably would have won. I felt like the votes that maybe she had on lock were Rachel and Will maybe and possibly Ava. But I feel like me, Kelly, Vince and Lawrence probably would have voted for Morgan.
- [234:07]
A
Yeah, that's what I. Because, like, when we were discussing. Because it felt like Morgan was the favorite to win part three, so we were thinking about, like, is there any chance that Ashley could even potentially win? And it really. The path was always Rachel, Will, Ava being locked in a three and then just getting one of you Lauren, Kelly, or Vince, maybe like a spurned Vince or like, you know, randomly like a Lauren or something. But it never felt super likely.
- [234:40]
B
No, from. From our. From our perspective, it was like it was more like Morgan and Vince's game to lose. From what I understand, just talking at the jury roundtable, like I said, I don't know what they put in the episode or not, but it was like that was kind of like the general consensus was like it was their game to lose. You know, not to say that Ashley didn't play a good game. Obviously socially she did.
- [235:02]
A
Did.
- [235:02]
B
But their games were more well rounded in terms of the social aspect and the competitive aspect that it was like, hard to deny them. Whereas the reason I would have given Ashley my vote, like I ultimately did, was like, all right, so even though she only won two comps, it was like the two comps she needed to win. And in the process of winning, that last hoh took out, in my opinion, the biggest threat in the game and Morgan. So that was like what gave me the.
- [235:29]
A
The.
- [235:29]
B
The teeter onto the Ashley train.
- [235:32]
A
Yeah. And, you know, it's. It was so. It was so interesting for Morgan and Ashley to be like the. The, like Ashley, the ultimate winner. Morgan being like the person that came so close because they, in my eyes at least, were like kind of two Sides of the same coin in the sense that, like, they were. Were they. They occupied two different spaces in the, like, the pillars of the season. Morgan was so active and so dominant in the season, just, like, getting people to do what she wanted. Being in a. In a prime position for most of the season, winning the competitions, she. She did. And then just Jen just steamrolling through Vinnie's game like he's taking all the heat while she sits back and. And directs him to do everything. It was just phenomenal work. And then Ashley, the person who had, like, you know, had the opposite end of that, like, from the very beginning, shower gate, coming from the bottom, slowly climbing her way up, was very interesting to see the two of them. And I thought, you know, in a season where I was like, like, often banging my head against the wall in terms of some of the decisions being made, it was very cool to see the two of them in the end, sort of representing the. Some of the best that the season had to offer, at least in my opinion.
- [237:02]
B
Yeah, absolutely. No, I. I agree. I definitely, while I was in there, I most definitely underestimated Ashley's social aspect of the game because I was under the. I was under the assumption that I was like, yeah, what have you done? Also season. You know what I mean? And then to find out, like, you know, what she was doing in the background, I. You know, I. I ultimately had to respect that.
- [237:21]
A
And.
- [237:22]
B
And had she won the final hoh like she did and took Morgan out, that was. It was undeniable for me.
- [237:26]
A
So. Yeah. All right. Any other questions? Any other things you want to talk about?
- [237:33]
B
No, man, we.
- [237:34]
A
We.
- [237:34]
B
We covered a lot. Dude, four hours. It felt like not that long.
- [237:39]
A
That's how it happens sometimes. Yeah, man.
- [237:42]
B
And. And listen, I really appreciate you taking the time to really break this down. I very much look forward to even going back and watching this again and. And also going back and watching, you know, your live feed breakdowns just to kind of learn. Learn even more. But thank you, man, so much.
- [237:55]
A
Honestly, I think that this was one of the best seasons of coverage we've had. Like, people loved the coverage of the show this year. Yeah, we had. The ratings were up both for the show, for the podcast. Like, people. People really came for the season. You were a huge part of that. And, yeah, thanks for. For coming and talking with me, dude.
- [238:14]
B
My pleasure. No, like I said, thank you so much. So.
- [238:17]
A
All right, well, where should people find you, Keanu, if they want to follow you? Oh, man. All my.
- [238:23]
B
All my social media is the same at Keanu Raisono. Except for on Twitter, somebody's posing as me, so don't follow that guy.
- [238:30]
A
Are you not on Twitter at all?
- [238:31]
B
No, not at all.
- [238:32]
A
Okay, good to know. You can of course find me on Twitch, on YouTube, on Patreon. I have a book, book coming out, Keanu, called Behind here. It's about Big Brother. So honestly, I get a signed copy? Absolutely, man.
- [238:49]
B
Oh, hell yeah.
- [238:51]
A
It's, it's, it's. It talk goes through the history of the show, so where it came from, how it developed, the, the. The evolution of strategy on the show in many ways and you know, all kinds of other, other fun, fun things for both Big Brother fans and non fans alike. And I guess also potentially for contestants if they. If they so choose. Nice.
- [239:14]
B
Well, I look forward to reading it then.
- [239:15]
A
Yes. All right, well, that is what we have for you all then. Thank you all so much for joining us here on this Keanu deep dive. And we will see all of you next time.
- [239:35]
B
This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios New film Springsteen Deliver Me from Nowhere starring Golden Globe winner Jeremy Allen White and academy award nominee Jeremy Strahm. Scott Cooper, the director of the academy award winning movie Crazy Heart, brings you.
- [239:52]
A
The story of the most pivotal chapter.
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B
In the life of an icon. Spring Springsteen Deliver Me from Nowhere Only.
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A
In theaters October 24th.
- [240:00]
B
Get your tickets now.