A (2:40)

Oh, that was me. That was actually one of my favorite parts. I also did. Let me just make sure I remember my own ingenious naming mechanism. I did the one that was called steal the power orbs for the mastermind so he can bring his lair online. And then Jesse, unfortunately, regrettably, went a little too far. He was responsible for kidnapping Julie and killing the Zingbot. We had to rein him in a few times. And we will get into this in greater detail later, but it was already documented on the show. Frankie was the one who did the Hamster Wheel of death.

B (3:16)

So, yeah, I mean, that tracks, because I feel like that he. It was all an homage to the White Lotus. I'm sure that maybe he thought maybe Mike White would be super impressed with the White Lotus homage, and then naturally he could be cast in the season four of the White Lotus.

A (3:39)

Well, he sat down and pitched it to us, and he was like, guys, I have this great idea where someone never gets voted for, they never get nominated, we don't evict them. They just are removed and we never see them again. And he talked us through it, and we're like, frankie, I don't think this is a good idea. This is not some of our best work. I think we can do better than this. And he said, I have this gut feeling that Rachel's not going to understand the rules and not be able to do it. And I was like, don't you think we want, like, maybe Lauren or Eva, someone else maybe to lose if you. If we must do this competition? And he said, guys, I. I'm sorry. I have to put my foot down. I think I want to do this and get Rachel out. Wow, the guy's diabolical. And then a few weeks later, Jesse came back, and he's like, now that we're doing this month of mayhem, I have this really insane idea. What if we did the eviction vote on the wrong day of the week? What if we just didn't wait till Thursday? Guys, they will never see this coming. And we'll even have them say it out loud.

B (4:43)

Yeah.

A (4:43)

And I was like, you guys, I mean, listen, I have a lot of bones to pick with Big brother, the house guests, and you'll hear about them all here today. But there is a line here somewhere, you know?

B (4:54)

Okay, well, I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. I guess why don't we just go back to the beginning of, like, what was the origin of all of this? I understand your motivation about how you've been very clear with us over the years about how Big Brother ruined your entire life and took so much of your joy from you. But can you just talk about how did you first start collaborating with Frankie and Jesse on being the mastermind?

A (5:27)

Well, this is actually a great story. So as more of a mastermind group.

B (5:31)

If you think about it.

A (5:32)

Yeah. I mean, I would say that I am the original mastermind going all the way back to 2007, you know, and after America's Player. The great thing about Big Brother is there's always new people to recruit to our organization, you know, so the first one in after me was Sharon Obermuller. And she. She was so angry that. That she actually had to bow out after a few years. Right. And then through the years, then came Jody, then came Glenn. Cameron was one of our leaders for a while. And one by one by one, we would bring them into the sanctum. In fact, Shima was actually supposed to be with us on Sunday night, but we couldn't get her onto the lot at CBS Radford. So there's a lot of people with a lot of bones to pick with the show specifically related to the twist. But where it really came together for Jesse, Frankie, and myself was in 2020 when none of us appeared on the final cast of Big brother All Stars 2. And that seemed outrageous to us because if you guys think about it, we're probably the three greatest masterminds in the history of the show. All three of us would have absolute steamroll to win our seasons, but we just never had the chance to show it. I never went on Dondi and got my butt kicked. Jesse never went on the traitors and mortified himself like Dan did. Frankie has would come back. Jesse came back. They're not scared like Derek is, right? We are the real greatest players. You know, sometimes we'll show up on the list of the greatest to never win. We're not the greatest to never win. We're the greatest to play the game. And you guys just don't know it because the twists took that from us. So when they once again disrespected us and didn't put any of the three of us as if we had anything better to do, you know, the world was shut down at the time. We were ready to roll, and they wouldn't let us there because they said, no, we don't want to steamroll. We don't want you three guys to demolish the competition. We want Cody to do that. And they took it from us again. And that's where we said, we need to do something about this. So from that point on, we've had yearly retreats, and we meet up once a year. One year, I think we went to a botanical garden. There was a baseball game OV once hosted us at Camp Comeback, which was very nice of him.

B (8:14)

That's nice.

A (8:15)

Yeah. And we've been plotting the perfect time ever since. But this year, a few specific Details came into focus that changed everything and told us it was time to act.

B (8:29)

Yeah, well, what were they?

A (8:31)

Well, I think you guys could realize by now it was when we found Amy, we needed someone in the house to do. You know, there was something about her. I don't actually know what it was, but when she did whatever it is that she did on night one, I don't exactly remember the details of that.

C (8:52)

Set up the timer, Used the garage door opener.

B (8:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (8:56)

I mean, we saw something in her that said we have found the one, and we put our plan into action. That's when Jesse said, we have to kidnap Julie.

B (9:08)

Wow. So can you just take us back to that first night? And you. You. So you had your accomplice Amy in the house, and she. She set off the timer, and then. Then she allowed Rachel to come into the game. Could you just take us through, like, your thought process of what were you looking to establish that first night?

A (9:35)

Well, we were hoping to basically drive the houseguests insane, right. So we knew that they wouldn't suspect Rachel because famously, Rachel was someone who benefited from a twist, so they would never think that we were working with her. You know, it's not a gap in logic in the story whatsoever. This is someone who. Who also has a problem with twists. Rachel. So we brought her on. She does now. We figured. We figured. Well, we wanted her to come around, right? So we figured who could really reign terror on these houseguests, you know? And we went through a Rolodex. The first two we came up with, ironically, were actually Jesse and Frankie, but they were behind the scenes, so we couldn't send them in. So we said, who's going to be the next person who is going to disrupt their summers? So we called up our good friend Rachel and said, hey, we have this idea. And she. She was in on it 100%. She. She was, like.

C (10:39)

Knew your identity, too, or did you mask that from her?

A (10:41)

Oh, no. She knew she was playing dumb at the finale for sure. Yeah, yeah.

B (10:45)

She.

A (10:45)

She's. She knew. And we said, we have this great idea. Why don't you leave your family for 100 days and help us just antagonize this new crop of houseguests, right? As. As part of the old guard. And she was game. She has a. A real love of the game. And she said, yeah, let's. Let's go.

B (11:04)

So I'm so glad that you brought up Rachel and, you know, her decision to take time away from her family, but I wanted to know from you and you know, knowing you a bit outside of Big Brother, I know that you have just welcomed a new addition to your family. What was your wife's reaction to your decision this summer to become the mastermind and, you know, basically go coast to coast numerous times, leaving your young family to go take on this undertaking of being the mastermind?

A (11:41)

She was very understanding. She knew that this is something that I needed to do to heal myself and be a better father moving forward. She told me, and I quote, if I have to hear you talk about America's player one more time, we're going to have to have a greater conversation about all of this. She was a little concerned about it affecting future job opportunities for me. She did think that it might potentially be terrifying to our children, but ultimately she did think it would be cathartic for me to terrorize a group of total strangers. And she was right. You know, my wife always knows best. And so she was really for it. She helped pack. She, she, she, you know, gave me some words of encouragement along the way. So, yeah, it worked out well. And we, we just, we just told them I was going on a work trip.

B (12:33)

Yeah.

C (12:35)

So you mentioned Amy was the accomplice, but who, whose idea was it to allow the house guests to potentially vote out your accomplice if they, if they detected who they were? Was that just sort of like an initiation ritual kind of thing? Like you need enough?

A (12:53)

Well, I think the thing is that once the producers caught wind of the fact that we were there and terrorizing the game, I think that they tried to put in some, like, fail safe measures to try and stop us. They didn't know who we were and they had no control over us, but it seemed like they thought maybe they could knock us down a few pegs or slow us down a little bit. And I will say that that was a big, you know, misstep. We had actually tried this once before all the way back in BB12. We sent Annie into the house to try and sabotage the entire game and she too, only lasted a week. I mean, it's hard to find good help when you're trying to take down Big Brother. I mean, if you guys think about it, yeah, Big Brother, the twists are undefeated. You, you, they are tough to come back from, you know, so once you put yourself out there like that, that's, that's the way the game works. You can go home at any time.

B (13:52)

And was that part of your motivation to get back at Rachel after Annie was then undone by Rachel and Brendan early on?

A (14:03)

Yeah, she's been A little bit upset about the goodbye message that she received from Rachel back in the day. She watches it, actually, every night before she goes to sleep. Yeah, and the thing is, we would have had them all there. It's just that there was only enough flights for three people and a couple nights at the hotel, you know, so. But they were there in spirit for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

B (14:28)

So can you tell us how much of a setback was it in the very beginning when the people in the house, the players, actually destroyed the mastermind's lair all the way back on night one?

A (14:42)

Well, that was a big problem. I'm not very handy whatsoever, Frankie. Not so much either. And while you would think that Jesse would. He's not really a hard labor type of guy himself, you know, doesn't really like to get dirty. And so we had to bring in outside help to build it back together, which is why we disappeared for so long in the middle of the season. We had workers over and there's contractors in and. And the WI fi, it never came back. It was a problem all season long, you know, that's why I had to use the power orbs to try and get it back online.

C (15:19)

Yeah, it looked like it was like on the beach of Fiji, this. This explosion. Can you confirm, like, where was this layer?

A (15:29)

No, I can't speak to that. I'm hoping that we're still going to be operational.

C (15:34)

You're rebuilding it in the same place?

A (15:36)

The exact same place on the rubble? Yeah.

C (15:39)

Oh, interesting. Yeah, that's. Yeah, a lot of how that's a good idea.

A (15:42)

I will say that, you know, we wanted people to think that, you know, some of the top suspects that we were trying to pin things on as a distraction were Jeff Probst. You know, we had Austin. Rob was on top of mind, you know, so it's funny that you should say that. It seems like our plan must have worked.

B (15:58)

Yeah, you gotta rebuild in the same place, otherwise you let them win.

A (16:05)

Yeah. And listen, they've won many times before, you know. You know, Rob, I've had the carrot dangled in front of me many, many times by Big Brother before. And I waited. Will I be a coach? Will I be one of the brains? Will I come back as a dynamic duo? Will I get to run around Europe on the Amazing Race? No, no, no, no. And that's when I realized I can't beat them. I cannot be the Big Brother. It's all knowing. It's all powerful. Alison and Rich, they have my number. I can't. I can't topple them and I realize beat the twist. Then you have to become one. It's the only way through.

B (17:01)

Yeah.

C (17:04)

Can you, can you just tell me, because I'm very curious because they mentioned that there were three different masks. Which one was yours?

A (17:12)

That is a great question, but aren't you the expert on Big Brother? Taryn, don't you know everything? Shouldn't you know the answer to this? It's not that. No, no, it's not that I don't know the answer. I just think that you should know the answer. I, I, it's, I'll tell you one thing. That night in the sanctum, something that definitely did not happen is the three of us did not put the mask down while we were chit chatting and then get confused about whose was who's about 10 times. And we did not have to stop filming to redo takes because we were wearing the wrong ones. I'll tell you that much. Definitely.

C (17:51)

Interesting. Well, that, yeah, that would be, that would be pretty silly if that happened because obviously it was deeply tied to your identity and the way that you wanted to carry out your mission was like the designs you put on the mask.

A (18:02)

Yeah, we weren't doing it to be filmed. It wasn't about being on camera. And those masks are our souls, basically, for sure. I'll also tell you another thing. The ceremonial garb that we wore, you know, our seamstress made them one size, you know, for all. And that didn't cause any problems at all, you know, because Frankie and Jesse and I were all the same builds. So that was also something that went very well that night.

B (18:36)

Yeah.

C (18:36)

So how did you feel when you saw this other show, the traitors, seemingly. What did they, were they inspired by you?

A (18:46)

I'm not familiar with that show. Could you just tell me a little bit more about it?

C (18:49)

Oh, it was, it's just a show about how there are like some people, reality cast members from other shows who are trying to murder their fellow contestants in a castle and they dress up in garb similar and they meet in a similar way. There's also three of them usually, and they stand around a round table and they discuss murdering other people. It's, it's, it really feels like they're kind of eating your lunch here.

A (19:16)

Oh, no, I actually am familiar with that one. We're real pop culture aficionados. That's why we also talked about the summer I Turned Pretty and we've been watching TV for a lot. I didn't know it by name. Yeah, that also the man who was Filming us. That must have been what he was talking about when he said, we're gonna get that Emmy after all. Yeah, I. I don't know. I mean, I think. I think we're. It's different missions. It's. It's different. You know, you're not murdering. There is murdering people. We're trying to make a statement, right? I mean, we did murder Zingbot, but he had a couple, so.

B (19:57)

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A (21:18)

Eric.

B (21:18)

We saw when the White Locust happened that Tyler Crispin became the concierge at the White Locust Resort. Was he also part of the mastermind's inner circle?

A (21:34)

Oh, no. He was part of the original plan to annoy the current house guests. So we had Casey come and we had Tyler come, because historically, I mean, these are not my words, but some have said that they were a little bit boring the first time that they were on the show. And so we had them there, you know, to upset the viewers, predominantly. That's how we chose the guest stars for the season. The Nolan Twins. That was an easy one. You know, we went season by season. Who can show up and just perplex the fans and say, why are they here? Why is this person suddenly playing in a veto competition for no reason? And who would be the least animated person who can do it. And, you know, it kind of just solved itself.

B (22:26)

Yeah, because I had been wondering, you know, exactly what happened when I saw that night that Lance Bass and Taylor and Derek went into the backyard and then Tyler basically tased them and made them all unconscious. And then, then there was never any sort of, like, follow up to what happened.

A (22:52)

That's actually a really great point. And I actually had a bone to pick with Lance Bass. So that worked out well back in 2020, right. At the same time that things had really went off the rails for the Masterminds, I produced an Instagram video called Encinco de Mayo for Lanz, and he did not pay me for it, and he's been on my list ever since. So that did work out well. I did not personally have any interactions with Tyler about this. It does seem as if he might have been complicit. So I'll, I'll shoot a text to the, the other Masterminds and see if they have more information on this. I, I, I personally have never spoken to Tyler.

C (23:37)

Well, this, this did seem like it was part of the whole White Locust thing. So maybe this was a Frankie operation. I don't know if he had anything particularly maybe, like, is there some kind of, like, pop star beef with Ariana and Lance?

A (23:51)

Oh, I think you're probably on to something. I mean, as noted earlier, but just to elaborate on it and mention it two or three more times, that was completely Frankie's idea.

C (24:02)

Nothing to do with you. The Rachel White Locust.

A (24:05)

No, I refused to even show up that day. I just said, leave me out of this. So he probably did call Tyler.

B (24:11)

Yeah. And you were actually mad about how it all went down?

A (24:16)

Oh, I was fuming. I. You. I think we spoke right after that. I had had enough. Another.

B (24:22)

I knew you were mad about something. I thought it was just the way that the jets started September, but I could tell that you were, like, very annoyed in the early part of the month.

A (24:32)

Yeah, well, I mean, as you saw on Sunday night, I can make some. I'm very mad, you know, just very, very mad. And so in general, it's usually something. So the jets, what I ate for lunch, you know, my lack of sleep sometimes it's the fact that every single season, at least two or three people are royally screwed by a twist, you know? And so around that time, things actually almost broke off for the Masterminds, because I could not believe this was the opposite of what our mission was supposed to be. Here we Were again, someone being taken out unfairly from the game. You know, they say to expect the unexpected, but in order to play a game, don't you need to know the rules of the game? I mean, people started actually reaching out to us from other franchises. We heard From Danny from Survivor 41, he said, I thought I knew the rules of this game.

B (25:28)

Yeah.

A (25:29)

But then I won a competition. And they said, I lost the competition. And I said, yeah, maybe this is our next, our next thing that we got to do.

C (25:41)

Truly a tragic story of going too far, you know, like hurt people. Hurt people. And you ended up creating your own, your own demise. Like the reason that you were all there. You made a blaring example of, of, of that, of the worst of it.

A (26:06)

Yeah. I mean, I think it's true. At that time that week in Big Brother, we became everything we hated. And that's triggering. Yeah. We had to regroup and think about what, what was our mission? You know, we had been gone repairing the lair for six, eight weeks prior to that. During that time, though, we did have a chance to go on a BB takeover Gronk Cruise, which was really nice. Yeah. And then when we got back, then this unfortunate situation unfolded with Rachel, who was supposed to be working with us very closely. And then. So that's why we left again. Again for a little bit. We had some more games planned, some more elimination, non eviction style games plans, but it didn't seem like our mission was connecting with people. They did not seem happy about it. So. So we had, we had to pivot, come up with some other late game plans.

B (27:14)

Yeah, yeah.

C (27:15)

I, I had heard a rumor that the original plan for the special eviction that Keanu was evicted with was that you were going to have them stab the actual person. But after what happened to Rachel, it was like, maybe we should rein it back in a little.

A (27:33)

I don't think that the plan was ever to kidnap and murder as many people as we did. So I do think that we reached that point when it was named the Hamster Wheel of Death, that we, you know, we did not. To my wife's earlier point, I don't want this costing me future job opportunities. You know, we all love Big Brother very much. We, we would love to go back and play again and prove our mastermindedness. So at that point, yeah, we said, no more murders, guys. No more. No.

B (28:05)

And I think to speak to that, if anything, I feel like that this probably enhanced your future job opportunities as a reality TV creator. I think that you really demonstrated your ab to program a whole season of reality tv. So I would have to think that probably this is going to open up a lot of doors for you.

A (28:31)

I. I appreciate that, Rob. I do not think so. Because if there's one thing I've learned in these last 18 years is that there are no doors of opportunity for me here. I have to create them myself. So unless I take the situation by my own hands, like I did here. And I will say, also, I specifically wanted to do this with Jesse and Frankie because of their popularity. They're so beloved in the BB sphere, and they're icons of the franchise. And every time that they show up, everyone is so taken by their appearances and they. I just couldn't imagine doing it with two better guys. Two guys who are more down to earth. And also, one of the things that really made our retreats and our planning sessions so smooth is they're so similar. They get along so well. Their personalities are so alike. It was never weird at all when the three of us were together. Everything they were saying was totally aligned, and it was just the perfect balance. It was a symphony, like Frankie said that night, you know, so.

B (29:55)

But, Eric, I really. I think you're probably just being humble because I have to imagine that you're kind of the glue guy, I would think, between Frankie and Jesse and keeping the whole group together.

A (30:08)

Well, as you know, I did work for World Wrestling Entertainment for a brief while back in the day. I grew up doing musical theater, so I definitely have personal bonds with each of them, for sure. That being said, there is actually more similarity than you may think between them. And they both really, really, really love themselves. And I love them, too. So it worked out great.

B (30:43)

Yeah.

C (30:44)

Well, tell us about Dr. Will, because for a while there for the live feeders, we thought that Dr. Will was the mastermind because that's what Morgan was saying. And then we see the episode and there's whole video footage of him as the mastermind, but he was saying he was framed and that it was AI.

A (31:09)

Yeah, that was very interesting, wasn't it? You know, Rob was actually there the night that my beef with Dr. Will started. This was back in 2007.

B (31:19)

Okay. All right. Yeah. Let's talk about this.

A (31:21)

2007 really awards, a night that will live in infamy for Danny Bonaduce body slamming Johnny Fairplay. And there was a best showmance award given out. And, you know, I was hot off of Big Brother 7. I had a Beauty and the Beast style romance that had captivated America. I being the beauty of Course. And they. I figured, this award is all mine. I looked around, there was nobody else in a showmance there. And when the great Brigitte Nielsen called me upon stage to accept my best showmance award, she then said, we have co winners here tonight, and gave another trophy to Mike Boogie and Dr. Will, who had A, not been on television together that year, and B, as you well know, are not in a showmance.

B (32:21)

Famously.

A (32:21)

They're not even on good terms anymore. So that was the night that I thought, oh, this guy wants to big time me. He thinks he's the legend of the show. He thinks he can win showmance awards when he's not even in a showmance. So he's had it coming for the last 18 years.

B (32:40)

He won before twists were invented.

A (32:42)

Yeah, yeah, right, exactly. He didn't have to deal with the same stuff I did. Now, as to why it is that there was absolutely no explanation of how we framed him, what happened to him afterwards, that is a great question. Yes. I do not know how to deep fake someone.

B (33:01)

Personally, I was curious to know about. Okay, so when the mastermind was in the backyard, okay, which one of the three of you was that? And then did you have. How did you have then get Dr. Will in the house to then get him arrested by the police officers also stationed in the house?

A (33:31)

Yeah, great question. So that was. That was Jesse. And that. That is 100% true. So Jesse and Frankie got on set a little earlier than I did because, you know, Jesse did all of our physicality. So, you know, that night, anytime you saw someone lurking, that was my main man, Jesse, you know, getting in there, doing all those shots. Now, as to the police, well, we called them, we told them that. That there was a bad guy, you know, who was sneaking into the house. And as to why Dr. Will was there, as you recall, he lives upstairs. He's the neighbor. So that was easy. That part was.

C (34:18)

That makes. That makes so much sense.

A (34:19)

But the thing that was a little weird and I guess they. Maybe they just took him to jail at that point or. But before and after this, you know, I did look around the locker rooms, the dressing rooms, I guess, as you would call them, and he was nowhere to be found. I did not. I did not see Will that day. So I'm not exactly sure when he got in and when he got out, but I do know that he went to great lengths to avoid interacting with us, that's for sure.

C (34:48)

Do you hear any kind of reprisal from Dr. Will?

A (34:54)

I haven't heard from him since. I don't, I don't know what he has planned or what, what exactly he has going on at this point. I mean, I was a little actually surprised that, that he took the bait. I was surprised to see him because he famously, earlier this year, retired from reality TV once and for all. Yeah. I just really did not. He would want to be there.

B (35:18)

So after the episode aired, you know, did they drop the charges against Dr. Will?

A (35:24)

I have not followed up on him whatsoever. I don't know if he made bail. I don't know if the charges were dropped. I don't know if they, they even digested, you know, that it wasn't actually him. There was no real follow up, as you saw. So I think that the, the information's missing. I just, I, I don't know where the story went after that.

B (35:44)

Yeah, can you talk through a little bit about, you know, this big reveal that we had in the finale? And so how did you coordinate this with the producers? And was this always part of your plan to say, I, I'm gonna take a certain portion of the finale. I, I want that dedicated to, like, let's, let's like, make sure that the people who are in the final two, let's keep it tight because we're going to need like, you know, good 10, 12 minutes to really lay this all out how we did it all this season.

A (36:19)

Yeah. The thing is, it seems clear to us, you know, once we, we were committed to this final act, the people needed to hear from us. It was more important than hearing from the winner. More important than hearing from the final three. We definitely didn't need to ask Adrian any questions. You know, this, this was. Who's Adrian? This was, yeah, this was about us. So we actually did not. This was not involving the producers in any way whatsoever. We went straight to CBS with this one. And it's, it's, as you well know, I'm very popular over there. I'm always hearing from them. So I just called up my contacts and I was like, hey guys, I need you to just carve out. I said, if you could wait till the last 20 minutes, people will love it. Right. When you want to know, winner is and America's favorite player. I was like, this is that level of importance. Let's stop down and give the people the end to this really well thought out, season long plot that we had cooked up. Now, our sanctum, it's not in the Big Brother house, you know, so we did not need their approval. Okay. It actually is, it is it's actually really close to the diary room and the storage room, so we had to sneak in there. So we had them waited till there was an HOH lockdown, and they went upstairs, and we tiptoed in.

B (37:54)

Yeah.

A (37:54)

And. And. And then. And then we just stayed there the rest of the day until the nighttime, you know, and then during the finale, they didn't know we were there. And, you know, we. We did that all live, of course.

B (38:05)

Yeah.

C (38:06)

Yeah. So did you coordinate. Did you bribe the live feed operator to shut the feeds down, or did you have, like, some sort of hack into it to. Just to make sure that you weren't caught.

B (38:22)

Pregnant? Paws.

A (38:24)

Well, we had Frankie sing. Oh, yeah.

B (38:27)

That was. Shut it down.

A (38:30)

It was good thinking. Yeah. Yeah, we had Frankie sing. He was singing the entire time, so they. They couldn't keep. They couldn't put him on.

B (38:37)

Yeah. All right, well, you've really answered all of our questions as far.

C (38:44)

I did have one more because I. I'm very curious about this, because the second I saw Jesse, I was like, oh, wow, Jesse, such a big guy. I can't believe he's the guy that we've been seeing on the monitor the whole time. And then Frankie came in, and then you came in, and so I was very curious. How did you expect to get away with having such different. I mean, obviously, you and Jesse, similar builds, but Frankie, I guess, maybe slightly different. So what. What was the expectation there?

A (39:14)

So, you know, our thought was that the only way that the twin twist fell apart. You know, we talked to Liz and Julia about this when they were in earlier in the year, and the only way the twin twists fell apart was because of their dental work. So that's why we wore the masks.

C (39:31)

Yeah.

A (39:31)

So we figured that would be the only way they would see any differences between us. Johnny Mac wasn't there, so we just kind of figured as long as we could hide our faces, they would be none the wiser, which is why we made all of the coats the exact same size, and they fit us, you know, so similarly, for sure.

B (39:52)

Yeah.

A (39:52)

You know, and. And I. I do actually appreciate the wardrobe very much so, because, you know, I have been hard at work this summer on this ply, and I gained a few pounds, so I was just kind of happy to have something loose and long. It was very nice to enact my plan in.

B (40:15)

Yeah. And I just want to commend the three of you because the whole idea of the mastermind, it was just such a natural fit with the rest of the theming for this Particular season of the mysterious hotel. And then everything that you all did with the mastermind and the clues and the voodoo dolls and the lair that I just fel. Felt like it all fits.

A (40:42)

Yeah.

B (40:42)

The power orbs.

C (40:43)

Yeah.

A (40:44)

Yeah. I mean, I left too many clues. Yeah. And if you. So the clues, I mean, these morons, how did they not. How did you guys not solve this? You do this for your life's blood. This is. This is what don't remind the year for, guys. And then it comes back around and all summer long we're dropping these clues. It was so stealth. There wasn't even a clue for me other than the leg on the poster that you.

C (41:18)

A little strange to write it out, but yeah, you're just stunting on us.

A (41:23)

Yet at that point, you know, it was not that Frankie first gave a clue when he hosted a competition 10 minutes earlier. That is. That's what you think happened. And they did not send Jesse anything to film an at home unlock segment to put a clue in. That's not what happened, guys. This is not what happened. We had clues the entire summer. It was a murder mystery. And like I said, we love pop culture. That's. We did a little homage to White Lotus and tried to weave that in here and there as well. It was very well thought out as. As they always are, for sure, you know?

B (42:10)

Yeah. So, Eric, now that we've talked through everything that you accomplished as the. The mastermind, I would just love to talk a little bit for you and as, you know, as Eric and not as the. The mastermind, but.

C (42:29)

Well, yeah, I mean, just as a thought experiment, let's just have you sort of like play, act your alter ego, just Eric, no mastermind. And I know it won't be like super genuine, but like, I think fans might be interested in hearing the theoretical thought process of.

A (42:46)

I can bring myself to that time and place and do that for you gentlemen. But I do have two more final things to say as the mastermind before we shift focuses. One is I've still yet to receive my advance copy of your book, Taryn, which would have been very helpful as I was plotting this summer. So thanks for nothing.

C (43:06)

I'll have a stern word with.

A (43:09)

And you know, since I am now in the villainous part of my career, I just wanted to tell the fans that. Sorry to break it to you, but Jen Johnson wasn't even close to being on the Amazing Race. Not close. Even close. That is complete fan fiction. Sorry to be the one who had to tell you.

B (43:37)

Wow. All right, so now that that's out of the way. Can you talk a little bit about what it meant to you to be back in this world, which it has been sometime. When was your last appearance on the Big Brother proper?

A (43:56)

Yeah, so the last time I appeared on camera was Big Brother 9, where famously Jessica and I were already nearly done for but hosted a competition and the producers were not thrilled with the fact that it was not feeling genuine that we were saying that we were falling in love at the Big Brother house. So that was the last time that I was on camera for the show. I was called for Big Brother 10 to do an interview about April and Ollie, which I declined because why Big Brother 11 is the one time I was really close to coming back. They had called a bunch of people who did not end up a part of the Clicks twist. So they had something else brewing and I believe it involved like Rivals type of twist. So I think I was going to be there with Jess, which is why she was already in the mix when they pivoted to the clicks or whatever.

B (45:07)

That was vote one person in.

A (45:09)

Right then what happened for that is I had done all the paperwork and then they pivoted the creative. But then Brian Hart was having some issues and they weren't sure if he was going to be able to actually film for the clique. So they flew me out anyway and I was sequestered for the week and I hung out there and so that was a close call that I had of being on the show. And then I was in the mix for the coaches. But even that it's big brother 14 and that was the last time that I ever heard a word from production. Yeah, there was no Big Brother 18 availability check. There was. There is no there. There was. And this is actually a story I will have to tell you guys off a line. But there was an interesting story around the time of Big Brother All Stars 2 that came up, but I was not contacted and not invited for it. And so I was completely flabbergasted to receive this phone call. As shocked as the viewers were to see me there, was as shocked as I was to get this message. I was just astonished. And I really didn't know if I should laugh or cry or what my emotions should be about it. And it was so. So I'm immediately. They do not say what this is going to be in reference to at first. So I'm immediately thinking like, huh, There was not a lot of Jewish representation on rain Gear Games 1. You know, maybe they want me to do some bad menorah. Puns. Yeah, you know, we were. Yes, maybe. Right. You know, I figured they thought they needed some new lines, you know, so that was. That was kind of my immediate, like first thought reaction and then was like, maybe they like actually need me to consult on like a format question. And then I was like, they would not call me and ask me that. Like, they do not want my help with that. I was like, so what the hell is this going to be? And when they told me, I knew I had to do it because it's a real personification of my actual feelings. And it seems so off brand for the show to. After all these years of doing everything they can. I mean, let's call a spade a spade. The mastermind twist is here to lay blame on us and take blame away from production to distract people, people about the most recent person who was left in the wake of their twist. So for them to openly self own themselves and acknowledge on camera the truth of what they did to me, it sounded too hilarious and too true to pass up. And I thought it was going to be cathartic for me. And I thought, this is a better chapter to end on. I'm gonna show up and have a great laugh and it's gonna be good times. But the second that I stepped foot onto the lot, that was not the emotion that came over me. I was pissed. I was immediately, oh, really? You know what? I really was screwed by this. They handed me the script. I read through it again. I said, what this? I had this conversation with Rob and Taryn before. This is not a script. This is my actual feelings. And Jesse and Frankie, they were definitely screwed. They were definitely on a potential path to winning. But they've had many, many, many, many more opportunities since that time. And it seemed like they had reconciled their emotions. Yes. When we talked about it in the moment, they were said, yeah, you know, I could have turned out differently or they got me. I was sitting in the dressing room and I was like, mother, you know, I can't believe I am here now. What am I? You know, I started really questioning my own choices, my own decision. I was going through it. And then to get to the sanctum, we had to go through the house. So we were in the living room and we were in the kitchen. And it was surreal. I mean, Frankie had just been there for Reindeer Games. Jesse's been there dozens and dozens of times. Frankie also hosted on 25. But when I was even back for even BB9, I was in the backyard. When I was there for BB11, I was behind the walls. This was my first time stepping foot into the house in 18 years and it felt like 500 lifetimes ago. And it also felt like it was 20 minutes ago. And I, you know, the, the first thing that came over me was like I kind of felt like I wanted to play. You know, I really did. And I had long thought I would, over my dead body would I go for 100 days away from my family just to get screwed again. Like unfortunately happened to Rachel. And you know, this summer I've been talking to Brendan non stop as you guys have been and I give her so, so, so much credit to because she loves this so much that she went and played in a situation that was going to always be a difficult situation for her and left her family and did it. I do not think, or I did not think that I had that in me. I stepped foot onto the thing and I thought to myself, these people are idiots. I would run circles around them and more than anything the producers owe me one. And this is not it. Today is not that day. My three minute Mastermind segment. This does not make us even until they hand me, well, it was $500,000 but until they hand me that money, we are not even. Because as we have discussed, I believe we talked about this on the Taryn show specifically, if we played out Big Brother 8 without America's player 1000 times, I think I probably would have won 999 of them. And I have never felt more honestly sincere about something in my entire life. And as soon as I stepped foot there, I, I swear to God I made final twos with each of Frankie and Jesse separately. I said if this leads to a legend season or a second chance. And guys, I'm so glad it was you here today. We'll run this shit right to the end. Me and you.

B (52:13)

Wow.

A (52:14)

Then five minutes later went right to the other one, said the exact same thing. I, I'm not joking around anymore. I, I and I, the truth of the matter is I would way prefer the play like a three week season if the opportunity ever arose. I would also prefer the play any other game on the entire planet. But if those opportunities are not afforded to me, then they just being there. There was something around about being on set that all of a sudden I said, you know, it might be time to dust off. Yeah, it really, it really was. I had been dimmed and then all of a sudden, I mean I, I don't know if you had any recent experiences like this, Rob, but it's like you, you bury it down. You say you don't expect them to come the. And. And then all of a sudden you find yourself in a situation and it's like, you know, I don't think this part of me ever left. It just wasn't available to me.

B (53:14)

Dormant.

A (53:15)

Yeah, it wasn't. It was. It was involuntarily dormant. If, if they were calling. It's not like I was saying no in any of these situations. And, and the thing. And I don't think I'll ever have. Have these ANSWERS Is after 18 years, what, when they wake up, have a production meeting and say, you know, it'd be fun. Let's call Eric. And I'm surprised that they had the faith or wherewithal to think that it would be well received because, you know, in our little corner of the Internet, you know, I knew it would pop a couple of people, but this is not in character with the CBS and the Big Brother production that I've interacted with through the years. And I just. I would be fascinated to know, but your guess is as good as mine how this came to be or why now or what the case may be. And I felt vindicated by the phone call, which is probably part of why they did it. I did feel like the littlest bit of appeasement. I've been genuinely really pleased and relieved by what the reaction has been, which has been a lot more favorable than I could have imagined. I was telling you before we got started, I was expecting a lot of, who is this old chunky white man and what is he doing here? Ruining our show, which there was some of. Let's. Let's be clear. But, you know, that was not the prevailing thought here. But I. Yeah, it's. It's. I think that I probably. And I'm sure others. Others might. Might argue this. I'm sure maybe Paul might argue this, for example, but I think I probably have the most complicated relationship and feelings towards the show of anyone who has ever been on it, because I. It was my favorite show. I absolutely loved it. I have watched every episode. And yet it also drives me insane. I. I mean, I. I was. I mean, we stopped doing Summer of Stein because I couldn't talk about it anymore. I didn't want to talk about it anymore. You know how your mother says, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it? And no one wants to go out and listen to someone on a podcast ranting and raving about the things that frustrate them about something that they're so passionate about. And to this day, I watch it and sometimes I enjoy it so much, and sometimes it frustrates me to no end. And I've had this long, dangling thought of. And I do want to say this. We've covered this many times over the years, but you may have new people listening. They promised me many, many, many times that I would be back. This is not like a fan fiction. In my mind. I did not think I deserved to be back. I was expressly told, the opportunity and time will come for you to be back. And then it never happened. And so to get this phone call was sort of like, are you kidding me? And then it was sort of like, hey, that's kind of cool. And I'm glad we're on good terms and who knows where it will lead and it will be fun. So, as always with Big Brother, it was a mixed bag of emotions, but ultimately an opportunity that I felt I wanted to take, I should take, and I was glad to take.

B (57:01)

Yeah. The thing from all of that that really I find so interesting, and I had seen your tweet that you posted shortly after being on the show. You said, I am back. America's Player was my origin story. My mastermind arc is just getting started. And I didn't know what you fully meant by that, but this is such an exhilarating conversation to hear you say that you would potentially be interested in returning to reality TV as a. As a player, not America's player.

A (57:45)

If these people dare to invite me back and made me America's player again, we will be doing a whole other interview after that. This is not going to. I'm not signing the paperwork. This. Sure. So. So the thing is, I worked my ass off as America's player. I did everything that was asked of me. And then on top of that, I showmanced. I did corny, terrible comedy. I fought with people. I did everything that you want out of a Big Brother contestant and was the twist of an entire season. And so I have always felt like I belonged as a reality star. My reality TV retirement was an unwitting one. It was forced upon me because nobody's calling. It's not because I wouldn't have said yes. And I do not begrudge other people for receiving opportunities. And everybody brings something to the show in their own way. It's not about that. But I promise you, some of the cast of the Amazing Race, some of the people who have been on Big Brother two or even three times, they're less entertaining than I am. They're Worse players than I am. They are. I mean nobody was nobody sitting there and saying, you know what we should do? Let's have David back again. Let's have Jason Roy back again. You know who'd really be dynamic on the feed? Memphis. He seems like he wants to be here. Let's just be real here. And I really, your guess is as good as mine where I wronged them somewhere along the way. My own personal, honest take on the matter is that they know the caliber of player that I actually am and they think the idea of an Eric Stein steamroll season is about the worst possible season that they could ever put on air. It's so boring. It's not fun, it's not what the fans want. The last thing in the world they need is a 45 year old man who is a game bot who is not going to be sloppy with his game to, you know, dog walk some 25 year olds to the finish line. You know, I put Amber and Jameika on my back and just carried them through the game so that way I could demolish them in the end competitions. They don't want this, they do not want that as their season of reality tv. And that's always been my theory, but the bug has always been there. I believe I'm deserving of it. And now do I think that appearing and saying three lines on this program is going to bring that opportunity for me? No, absolutely not.

B (60:51)

But you're saying there's a chance.

A (60:54)

Well, you know, we say this in jest, Rob, but if this isn't the most never say never moment that there's, there's ever been. You see, I think that that's why it landed as much as it did is because this, this was true. The life, this was not a storyline. I mean imagine if, if on Survivor. I mean, I don't know who even would be comparable. It's like we saw like dreams for the first time in, or Shane Powers or you know, whoever the case may be. It's like I just think that it, it's so outrageous that I haven't appeared in, in 18 years and that's why it resonated, you know, and so, so if after 18 years they, they hunted me down and made it happen, I think we can officially never rule out anything moving forward. And if the call comes, I'm saying yes, you guys know this. I think it'll go horribly.

B (61:51)

Yeah.

A (61:52)

And then I'll regret it and then I'll complain about it the whole time and I'll go home in week One and I'll have every excuse in the world for why that was the case. And, oh, they probably watched this podcast and they heard how I was being arrogant and I said I was so good and they wanted to teach me a lesson, but I'll be there. And that's what I meant by it. I am back in the game. If you look down the tweet history, I really been out of the game for a long time. I've had very little to say about the show and reality in general. Another thing is, guys, and you know this, but maybe the public doesn't, is that I work behind the scenes in unscripted television and it puts me in a really weird spot because I'm trying to sell things to these people. So it's like not really a great look for me to go on a podcast or Twitter and be like, you've done it again, cbs. Screw you. That's not what they want to hear from someone who's then going to try to make them buy something from them. So I've kind of, it's forced me to rail it back and not give my true thoughts as much. But I'm over it. I've waited 18 years. Someone foolishly gave me a three minute platform again and now I'm back and now you're not going to be able to get rid of me again. We're going to be podcasting every night.

B (63:14)

Spoken like the true villain Mastermind.

A (63:19)

Yeah, it was always within me. Yeah.

C (63:23)

I mean, for me it was like there are a lot of, there's a lot of lore for the fans of the show that exist purely within the fandom of the show that like, will very likely be lost to time in terms of like the history of the show, if there is ever really going to be a history of the show. And so the, you know, you being screwed by the America's Player twist is something that everyone who like, knows the show well knows. But for it to be sort of christened by the show itself, endorsed by the show itself, it is now part of the official lore of the show that the America's Player twist screwed you. It really did, like, mean something to me at the very least that like, this is now. It's like when they did the All Star season and they did those little packages for the players from All Stars and those packages, like, were are still what most fans remember about those players games, like those highlight reels. And, and so for this to be like an official part of the show, to have a bunch of people who have never seen season eight to now have the only thing they know about it be oh, that that Eric guy was screwed by that America's player twist is it's, it's interesting and you know, it's just nice. It's, it's rewarding to the long term fans, I think.

A (64:57)

I mean Taryn, isn't it flabbergasting? Because when have they ever. And who in production and, and where. Who. Who actually was was deep on the Big Brother Reddit to recognize that this would resonate with anybody because it's not in their lore, it's not in their normal production meetings. Right. So, so where did this. What was even the origin of how the idea came to be?

C (65:20)

Because maybe in 20 years they'll, they'll finally acknowledge that they screwed Rachel over too and it'll be great.

A (65:26)

Yeah, that's in the Mastermind two season for sure. Which comes back. I mean I'm curious to know, you know what your guys reaction was as my friends, not as podcasters because it was a well kept secret and they went to great lengths to keep it one. And I said I put myself in the headspace of if I was watching this and first Jesse took a mask off and then Frankie did. I would have been 100% sure Nicole Franco was coming next. And if Nicole then who else that we've seen 20 million times before, you know, is it just illogically Taylor or Derek or whatever.

B (66:06)

Yeah.

A (66:07)

Never in a zillion years would I have thought it was me.

B (66:10)

I thought it was going to be Danielle who was going to be the person to come in because also Danielle has the hamster wheel of, of death. And I felt like that there was like okay, oh no, I am the most mad about this. And then when I saw it was you, I was just so tickled that what a, what a delight. And I really couldn't believe it. Where after all of this time to have you return to the show. I like it took me a second to like wait, wait, what. What's happening? But really I was just like it was. I think 1. Either you love this or you were confused. I think there was no negative reaction to this.

A (66:55)

Yeah.

C (66:55)

Eric, I don't know if you've seen it. People have posted the clip of me reacting.

A (67:00)

It was great. Very much in the.

C (67:05)

Exactly. Here's why. I was literally in the middle of like complaining about it and eye roll.

A (67:10)

Right.

C (67:12)

And then I saw the mask come up and, and I just, I just lost it. I could, I can maybe pull the. It might be fun for the, for the podcast to, to pull up the clip here, it's pretty short. It's a little small on the screen.

A (67:28)

But.

B (67:32)

If you're listening to the podcast, Taryn is very happy to have seen Eric. Big reaction.

A (67:43)

Yeah, it's definitely like deep, deep, deep dive fan service that they slipped this in there. It's just when have they ever given the fans what they wanted? Why would anyone think this is what the fans wanted? And then they were actually right that this is what the fans wanted. So the entire thing to this moment is completely dumbfounding to me and just very, very surprising. And, you know, now that we're talking about it and I'm giving a little bit more thought, it was fun. You know, it was just totally unexpected and a nice, like you said, footnote to all of this. Because while I heard a lot of, you know, oh, this must be their soft launch of some sort of returnee season, I don't think that's the case. I think this was a tiny little make good gesture of wouldn't it be fun and go out on a little bit of a higher note than you last left us? And if that's what it is, then this was a fun one to go out on. I mean, I, I, it was great. They flew me business, so. Whoa. Didn't even have a stranger next to me. It was a lay down just by myself.

B (69:06)

Yeah.

C (69:06)

Wow, that's surprising.

A (69:11)

Trust me, I was shocked.

B (69:14)

All right, well, Eric, really appreciate you coming on and talking about basically taking us through all of the masterminds, different plans that you perpetrated over the summer, and then even giving us a little bit of behind the scenes of what it meant to be included in Big Brother 27. Is there anything else that's on your mind?

A (69:35)

No. As per usual, I have nothing to plug. No upcoming opportunity. No, I'm, I'm ready. Guys. This is, this is, this is going to be it. Remember Frankie and Danielle and Brittany, the time laser? The time laser becomes Reindeer Games becomes the Traders. This is it. I'm back. Like I said.

B (69:59)

And so that Eric Stein will be back for Groundhog's Day on Robin. And you need a podcast in February. Unless he's filming some kind of Big Brother All Star season in February.

A (70:12)

Oh, no, that's what I was talking about. I was saying I'm back to record this year's Groundhog Day podcast.

B (70:18)

Yes. What if, what if some sort of Big Brother All Star season is taking place on February 2? Will you give us your Groundhog Day commentary on the live Feeds.

A (70:28)

I think that that's only reasonable. I mean, I'll probably be out by then, although we don't know when it would start. Just assuming as much.

B (70:37)

Yes.

A (70:38)

I don't think that this podcast would necessarily helped my cause if I were to go back, you know, I think I'm in trouble, guys, but I'll be there nonetheless.

B (70:47)

I think that the list of people who would play on a Legends All Stars type of season I think only gets shorter by the day. So I think expanding the pool to include you now, I think only helps the chances of it happening.

A (71:03)

Well, it really all depends on how they define legends, right? You know, when it's like Big Brother 25, Cameron takes my spot, or, you know, like. Yes. Well, really, I don't think I'm on the short list, guys.

B (71:18)

Yeah, if they call it like legends and put it in quotes, like, I think that it could happen.

A (71:24)

It's a Big Brother legend. The ones who took our call coming this winter.

B (71:30)

Yeah.

A (71:31)

Okay. I will say. I will say. And they probably don't want me to say this, but I will say Jesse and Frankie, they're. They're also in. These are busy guys. They have real gigs, real careers. These are real celebrities. But the thing is, there's a hankering for the people that have unfinished business. Right. And I think that there's always a lot of online talk about the all winter season. First of all, a lot of the winners are incredibly boring and we do not want to see them play again and they don't want to play again and they have nothing left to prove. But the ones that got away, these are the ones that. It eats away at them. You know, Frankie was on one of the late night shows like a week or two ago. He's doing Broadway. He has pop songs. Jesse is on the upcoming American Gladiators. And I dead ass asked these guys point blank. I said, you would never dare step foot back in this house again. And both of them looked me straight in the eyes and said, if they call, we will be here. So I think it could be a bigger season than you might think. They just need to ask. That's the thing. They just need to actually call, call the right people. And I think we could get a good season out of it.

B (72:49)

All right, well, this is incredibly exciting coming out of Big Brother 27. Taren, any other thoughts?

C (72:58)

I think I'm just very impressed by Eric's ability to pretend to just be Eric Stein and not the mastermind. It's very impressive.

A (73:08)

Very impressive.

B (73:09)

Yeah. Taryn, do you Think that is there some resource that maybe the producers could look to if they wanted to go through, like the history of the show and find some good people to call for this season that Eric has talked about today?

C (73:23)

Well, Eric Stein is featured in my book, behind the Mirror, despite the fact that he still hasn't received a book.

B (73:31)

Yeah, and you have to rewrite the end of the book to include the whole Mastermind chapter.

C (73:36)

I mean, who knew all this was going on behind the scenes?

B (73:39)

The twist came home to Rooster.

C (73:42)

I did not do my due diligence with the journalism.

A (73:45)

Unfortunately, I was a little squirrely about our interview because I was already plotting this and I. I didn't. I didn't want to bring you into it, you know?

C (73:52)

Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. You can, of course, find it@taron armstrong.com and today is actually the last day, if this comes out, on Tuesday, September 30, to get a signed copy from my local bookstore. But there are still options to get signed book plates in some of the other places. So make sure you head over there soon.

B (74:14)

All right. Well, Eric, I look forward to podcasting with you when we have absolutely nothing to talk about. This was such a treat to get something of so much substance to talk about with you today, Rob. We've never had that before.

A (74:33)

This is the first time in 18 years that I had anything that was remotely topical to say.

B (74:40)

Not since you Twitter account.

A (74:43)

Oh, that's right. Breaking News back in 2010.

B (74:49)

It was much later than that. It was probably like 2017.

A (74:52)

Well, you know, people have been saying that maybe this is my opportunity to finally, you know, get in the Instagram and TikTok game. You know, very timely as well. So, you know, I'll. You don't have a Instagram account. I don't have an anything account. In fact, baby Dino the dog got.

B (75:08)

An Instagram account before you.

A (75:11)

Oh, yeah, well, he had some. He's a good looking guy. So, you know, I have a face for radio, not for Instagram. You know, no one wants to see pictures of me.

B (75:22)

Yeah, okay.

A (75:23)

I also have nothing to say, but now I do.

B (75:25)

Was this your first time appearing in hd?

A (75:28)

Oh, God, I'm glad that you brought that up. I forgot that. So I practice with Frankie backstage about how to hide the extra skin that was dangling from my neck. You know, I have a bit of a turkey neck now. I'm not as young as I used to be. Right. So we practice different positioning. Also, I said to my wife before I left, I said, you know, we have a young Baby, I have bags under my eyes. I did not know this phone call was coming. I would have dieted otherwise. It's like. It's not looking good for me. What can we do about this? In the hotel, prior to going, I've never done this in my entire life. I slathered on every mask, every mastermind, every wrinkle thing. Yes, maskermine. Exactly. That you could possibly have. There was. Under eye concealer. There was a moisturizer and a serum because I. It was. I was worried, guys. Really. I really pulled it off. Pore strip. I did it all. I did. I had to wake up very early to get myself looking as youthful as I did. And I gotta say, I looked pretty good. So I think it was. I think it was. I think it was worth it. Yeah.

C (76:57)

Nailed it.

B (76:58)

All right, Eric, thank you so much. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Taren, where could people keep up with you?

C (77:04)

Like I said, Taran Armstrong.com check out my YouTube, Twitch and or Patreon as well if you want to keep up with me in the off season.

B (77:10)

All right, We've got so much more coming your way. Make sure you subscribe for everything we got going on with big brother, Survivor, the amazing race and so much more. Take care. Have a good one.

A (77:18)

Bye. It.