FBI Negotiator Reveals Game-Changing Secrets

Summary

Rich Dad Radio Show: FBI Negotiator Reveals Game-Changing Secrets

Episode Release Date: January 8, 2025
Host: Robert Kiyosaki and Kim Kiyosaki
Guest: Chris Voss, Former FBI Negotiator and Author of "Never Split the Difference"

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1. Introduction to Chris Voss

Robert Kiyosaki opens the episode by introducing Chris Voss, a renowned FBI negotiator and author of the bestselling book "Never Split the Difference." Kiyosaki emphasizes the critical role of communication in entrepreneurship, highlighting Voss's expertise as essential for anyone looking to enhance their negotiation and sales skills.

Notable Quote:
“If you want to be an entrepreneur, you've got to study with Chris Voss. I mean, the number one skill of an entrepreneur is communication.”
— Robert Kiyosaki [00:08]

2. The Importance of Communication in Entrepreneurship

The discussion underscores communication as the cornerstone of successful entrepreneurship. Kiyosaki shares his personal journey from military school and the Marine Corps to a sales career at Xerox, illustrating how traditional training emphasized getting "yeses" from clients. However, he acknowledges the transformative impact of Voss’s teachings, which advocate for a more human-centric approach to negotiations.

Notable Quote:
“If you allow your humanity to overflow, the divine will happen.”
— Robert Kiyosaki [04:10]

3. Transitioning from "Yes" to "No" in Negotiations

Chris Voss introduces the concept of shifting from seeking "yes" to encouraging "no" responses in negotiations. This approach fosters a sense of safety and openness, allowing for more honest and productive dialogues.

Notable Quote:
“Stop getting people to say yes and substitute a question. Go from, do you agree? to do you disagree?”
— Chris Voss [26:34]

Voss explains that "no" makes people feel protected and more willing to engage, thereby facilitating deeper conversations and better outcomes.

4. Personal Experiences and Transformation

Kiyosaki and his wife, Kim, share their experiences applying Voss’s techniques in both personal and professional settings. Robert admits that his previous aggressive communication style, honed through military and sales training, often led to conflicts. Through practicing Voss’s methods, he has noticed significant improvements in his relationships and overall happiness.

Notable Quote:
“When I started listening to your podcast, I was going, holy moly. My job is get them to say no.”
— Robert Kiyosaki [27:42]

Kim adds that implementing techniques like effective pauses and silence has enhanced her negotiation outcomes, making interactions smoother and more successful.

5. Psychological Underpinnings of "Yes" and "No"

Voss delves into the neuropsychology behind why "no" is more effective than "yes" in negotiations. He references discussions with neuroscientist Andrew Huberman to explain how "no" triggers a more thoughtful and less defensive response compared to "yes."

Notable Quote:
“People feel safe and protected when they say no.”
— Chris Voss [35:50]

6. Combating Negativity in Media and Daily Life

The conversation shifts to the pervasive negativity in media and its impact on mental health. Voss shares his strategies for curating positive content and limiting exposure to negative media influences, advocating for intentional consumption to maintain a positive mindset.

Notable Quote:
“I'm consciously curating the positive. And the more positive gets fed my direction, the better I feel.”
— Chris Voss [18:58]

7. Overview of the Black Swan Group

Chris Voss provides an overview of his consultancy, the Black Swan Group, which specializes in coaching and training elite negotiators. He describes their clientele as the top 1%—individuals committed to continuous learning and self-improvement to achieve higher levels of success in business and personal life.

Notable Quote:
“We coach those people who believe in investing and learning in themselves and they want to collaborate with people.”
— Chris Voss [28:38]

8. Practical Techniques and Black Swan Methods

Voss shares actionable techniques from his book, such as using phrases like “What I’m hearing is...” instead of “I” statements to keep the focus on the other party. He explains how these subtle shifts can lead to more meaningful and effective negotiations.

Notable Quote:
“It makes them feel more focused on the other person too.”
— Chris Voss [38:59]

Kim Kiyosaki reinforces these points by sharing her own success stories using Voss’s methods, demonstrating their practical applicability.

9. Conclusion and Access to Resources

As the episode concludes, the hosts emphasize the importance of adopting Voss’s negotiation techniques to enhance both personal and professional relationships. They encourage listeners to access the Black Swan Group’s resources through their website and newsletter for further learning and development.

Notable Quote:
“Never split the difference is a phenomenal book. It’s essential.”
— Kim Kiyosaki [45:46]

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Key Takeaways

• Human-Centric Communication: Transitioning from seeking "yes" to encouraging "no" fosters genuine and productive conversations.

• Neuropsychological Insights: Understanding the brain’s response to "no" can enhance negotiation strategies.

• Positive Mindset Practices: Curating positive media consumption is crucial for maintaining mental well-being.

• Black Swan Group Offerings: Specialized coaching for elite negotiators aimed at the top 1% seeking continual improvement.

• Practical Application: Implementing small, actionable changes in communication can lead to significant improvements in negotiations and relationships.

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Resources Mentioned

• Book: Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss
• Black Swan Group Website: blackswanltd.com
• Neuroscientist: Andrew Huberman’s work on human behavior and neuropsychology

For more insights and to enhance your negotiation skills, consider exploring Chris Voss’s teachings and integrating his techniques into your daily interactions.

Transcript

[Robert Kiyosaki]

This is the Rich Dad Radio Show. The good news and bad news about money. Here's Robert Kiyosaki.

Hello, hello, hello, Robert Kiyosaki, the Rich Dad Radio Show. Happy New Year. And I'm very excited for a very special guest because his name is Chris Foss. He's famous for being a FBI negotiator, but he's more than that. If you want to be an entrepreneur, you've got to study with Chris Voss. I mean, the number one skill of an entrepreneur is communication. You can call it negotiation, you can call it sales. You can call whatever you want. But as my friend Blair Singer says to me all the time, he says, sales equals income. Do you know? And when I find somebody who can't sell, it's their income is low or vice versa. But more than that, I've been. And I came. We interviewed Chris years ago, and his first book came out. Never split the difference. And I didn't. I hate to say I didn't read the book, but I will read the book now. I've gotta admit that. And all I remembered from that was a lot of people remember from Chris was the midnight dj, you know, voice and all that. So I was practicing. You know, we're talking before the show came on, I went to military school. I mean, day one, we're screamed at. There was no compassion. Then I joined the Marine Corps, and I learned to adapt to that behavior. You talk to everybody like a Marine. So for 35 years, I talked to Kim like a Marine, and one day she said, I've had enough. So when I was listening to one of your podcasts, I went, oh, my God. So I want to thank you because what your technology is more than sales, is more than negotiations. You have the key to world peace. If we could learn to speak with kindness and humanity and support. So your technology is absolutely fantastic. But Kim says she noticed a difference in me. Right, Kim?

[Kim Kiyosaki]

I have. I have. I've noticed a difference on how you communicate with people and how you catch yourself before the. The non filter. You're filtering yourself more than you have been in the past, because sometimes you're so far down the road, people have a hard time understanding, and then you get frustrated. So the. You've been pract, whatever you've been practicing, or Chris, whatever you've been teaching them, it's been working.

[Chris Voss]

So that's cool. I mean, students got to be prepared to learn. You know, it's just throwing it out there isn't enough. You got to have a mind that's.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Open yeah, your work is so fantastic because I also went to Xerox. You know, I spent four years working with them, sales training and all that stuff. And what you talk about is the tie down, and that's what we called it, the tie downs. You get them to say yes, right? And you say that's the worst thing you can do. So, I mean, your stuff, Chris, is so profoundly opposite what I think is one of the most important skills, an entrepreneur, but a man and wife. Anybody talking to people must know what you know.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

And, you know, for people that don't know you, Chris, I just want to give them a little bit of your background, because it's pretty impressive. So before 2008, you were the lead international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI, as well as the FBI's hostage negotiation representative for the National Security Council Hostage Working Group. You worked in all sorts of divisions. Just the Joint Terrorist Task Force you were part of for 14 years. I mean, you have an incredible resume. And it's more than a resume, of course, because you've been out there doing it and living it. And so I'm just really impressed because we always want to talk to people who are what we call real teachers. People are out there doing it, not just talking about it. And you have such an impressive history of negotiation and kidnapping, negotiation and all of this. So let's. Robert, I'm going to turn it back to you, and let's get started, because this is exciting, right?

[Robert Kiyosaki]

The saying goes, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Well, you know, Kim, saying I've had it with you was my lesson. I'm ready to listen. So that's why I encourage everybody, from an entrepreneur's point of view, get his book, Never Split the Difference. But if you want to stay happily with people, getting to be a better communicator, never split the difference is essential. This is what Chris has taught me. He says, if you allow your humanity to overflow, the divine will happen. That's what Chris is teaching in negotiations. You're teaching just to give your love and humanity to people. Not tie them up, not rope them down, not beat them up, not get the best out of them. But your work is profound. So as soon as I finish this book, your book's next.

[Chris Voss]

That's good company for my book to be in.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

I know.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

So, Chris, could you give us a little bit of your history and how you got into this and how it's transpired?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, Well, I was an FBI agent. I was actually on a SWAT team. And then, because the injuries to my knee. I wanted to be a hostage negotiator. I figured, you know, how hard could it be? My son and I joked that there's two unofficial models from our family. One is, how hard can it be? Which is really close to. You know what they say. Redneck's famous last words are, hey, watch this. You know, how hard could it be? Is along those lines.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

But also, you say, and then, well, also it's funny.

[Chris Voss]

Go ahead.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

What's the difference in a hostage in negotiation and my mother.

[Chris Voss]

You can negotiate with a terrorist, right? Yeah.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

So the toughest negotiation is sometimes with the people you love. Would you say that's true? Well, they are.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, they are. And. And. And it requires kind of a higher level than. Than the basics, you know, like. Like there's. We're talking a concept these days. Shu Ha Re shoe is just the basics. Ha is when you begin, you got the basics down, and you're beginning to develop your own skills. And. And re is when you're still within a discipline, but you're making up your own rules and dealing with relatives, close people very close to you. You definitely. You're in the high or re area. You have to get the fundamentals down, and you get much higher into it. One of my favorite stories, my son Brandon, who's the president of the company, he's phenomenal negotiator. A couple of years ago, you know, his bride was getting ready to walk out the door. And you know, one of the. One of the rules when you're really trying to break through with somebody is articulate their position to them till they say, that's right. Till you got it down.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

You.

[Chris Voss]

You know, you didn't. You don't. Yes. But here's what you see, here's why you're mad. And she's packing, and he goes down. I gotta get a. I get to say this. I gotta get her. That's right. Admir. So he sits down, he lays out, you know, you're upset with me because I don't listen. I'm assertive, I'm grumpy, you know, all the long list. And he can watch her relaxing. And she says, that's right. And I'll stay. Now. I'm grandfather now.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Congratulations.

[Chris Voss]

One of the things when he told us that story, because we're working on a couple of books right now, the first time ever, it occurred to me, I said, you were furious when you started that process. You were furious. And the mere act of trying to. Even trying to see the other person's point of view put you in a different mind frame. It changed you. I mean, it did a lot for her, but it settled you out in phenomenal ways so that you could hear and you could listen. Just try and exercise it. And that's one of the cool things that we've actually just discovered. You know, the great fringe benefit of applying this understanding to other people, it does a lot for them, but it does more for you. I mean, it settles you out in so many ways. We had, you know, I. I got in the middle of a couple of. A few months ago in clubhouse when Israel is shelling Gaza, trying to take out Hamas. And Hamas puts their, their ammunition into. In schools, they put it in the AP office. You know, they're daring Israel to blow up their ammunition and their weapons catches, and finally Israel complies. So, you know, there's arguments about it. And in this forum that I hosted, I said, you could just. I want people supporting Palestine here and I want people supporting Israel. I don't care which side you're on. But before you tell the other side what you think, them, you have to say, all right, here's what your point of view is. Before I disagree with you, here's how you feel. Now, very few people were able to execute and get it. That's right. But the more important thing was not one discussion devolved into an argument. The person who hosted it with me said, this is the first time we've ever hosted this discussion where people weren't screaming at each other. The mere act of trying to see the other person's perspective, whether it's a personal relationship, a business relationship, or political firestorm, settles you down and helps clear your head.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

If I could put amen to that one. That's why this book here I'm reading, Karma now, is very similar to your book, which is don't never split the difference. You're saying the same thing. I'm gonna read that line again. If you allow your humanity to overflow, the divine will happen. And that's what Ken was saying is because my whole, you know, four years of military school, six years as a Marine, you know, we got used to jumping into people's shit. I mean, and if somebody wasn't jumping into my shit, I mean, they didn't love me. So the more they yelled at me, the happier I got. But that's not a normal society. And you don't treat your wife and business partner that way. So that's why.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, but you, you get that wired into you, it's hard to get it out.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

And it's wired. That is a thing. So your book. Never split. The difference is priceless. I recommend everybody read it. You know, I'm signing up for your programs because you have the key to world peace. But it starts with me. You know what I mean? It starts with me. Nobody else. So thank you for that. I publicly want to thank you for that. Kim doesn't know what we're talking about, but she noticed I smile a lot more.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

Yes, you do. Yes, you do.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

So when I'm negotiating with people, I'm not yelling at them, I'm smiling at them.

[Chris Voss]

That's a step at a time, right?

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Change.

[Chris Voss]

You know, you didn't get that bad wiring built in overnight. And you don't. You don't rewire overnight either.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

No. And that's why I'm signing up for your coaching and all that, because that is the most important thing I can do. If I can change me, I can change my. I can change outside of me, but I can change outside of me if I'm yelling at them.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

So, Chris, if I can ask, how did you go from being a kidnapping negotiator to teaching what. What prompted you to go. To want to teach negotiation and especially some of these top, top universities that you teach at?

[Chris Voss]

Well, it was, you know, it's a combination of a couple things. I mean, initially. I mean, from day one on, I started applying this stuff in my personal life. I'm just like, this stuff just is too powerful for not to be applicable to everyday stuff.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

And then actually a big trigger was, you know, I worked a kidnapping in the Philippines. It went bad. I mean, it was ugly. It was a train wreck. People got killed. I mean, it was bad. You know, I talk about it in the book, and we did an after action, and we, you know, we said, look, we did everything we knew how to do. And my response was, okay, well, then we don't know enough. And that's when I started talking to people at Harvard. I got them to let me come through their class, and I began to learn with them and alongside them. And they said, you're doing the same stuff. Exactly. All the human nature dynamics are the same. The stakes are different, but the dynamics are the same. And that's when really I started to slide into, okay, these guys have given me the green light. We got to apply this across the board. Business and personal life, the universe lined up. I got a chance to teach at Georgetown and the students, you know, I was teaching there alongside Brandon, and actually, Brandon guest lectured a lot and so did Derek Gaunt, one of our other coaches.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Brandon's your son? Not Joe Brandon?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, yeah, he's my son. And we started transforming people's lives in a business school. So it was cool.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

And that does. I mean, you know, Kim's always said to me, says, no matter how successful I got, I got more unhappy. It was wired up that way. And then just what you were saying about what is. What is the. I call it the corpus callosum, but there's a. The ancient brain, the reptilian brain and all that.

[Chris Voss]

The amygdala. Right. Sounds like an Italian dessert.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Yeah. So I just started smiling more, and if I start smiling more, everything changes. Everything changes. Would you explain that?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. There's a hardwired connection, actually, between the muscles in your face and the neurons in your brain. And smiling. If you start studying, what happens? Like, I'm my own laboratory, and I know I get a hit of whatever neurochemicals that improve my thinking and my positive mindset. It's a direct connect. Now, it's not a huge connect, but every little bit helps. I mean, the neuroscience experiments were People's ability to take away. People's ability to frown was taken away through Botox, and they were instantly in a better mood. Wow. And so. But simultaneously, it also sort of stopped them from smiling. So frowning hurts your brain, and smiling helps your brain. And, you know, you pick up. Pick up every edge you can. I mean, I'm always for. I want every edge I can get. And then you take that attitude, like kidnapping, negotiation. Were long shots slim and none. Well, you get used to dealing with slim and none, and you're successful enough, you go, like, all right, I'll take slim. Give me every edge I can. I'm going to take a shot. It beats zero. And smiling is one of those little things that begin to push you slowly into the plus column.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

So can I take that one more step? Is, as Kim says, he was saying to me, why are you so unhappy? You're the most. We make millions, and we have all the success. But you also said that that's hardwired into unhappiness, the amygdala or something. I call it the reptilian.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, yeah, same thing.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

And so what I do now, Chris, is I wake up and I smile. Whereas before, I mean, just that little bit, I smile. I get to my little book and I write in it, and I study spiritual things, but I would wake up depressed, and I'd carry that into the day. So that's how. And I think Kim's noticed that. And I'm a little chirpier in the morning. I'm actually washing dishes and stuff like this. But I would get up thinking about what I had to do to be more successful. Does that make sense to you, Chris?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, 1,000%. And part of that is our default mode. Survive. You know, what you'll lapse into default with no work is. Survival is negative. You know, the caveman had to worry about, you know, how am I gonna. How am I gonna survive today? As soon as he got out of bed, you know, so. And we've got that hardwired into us from the days that, you know, you might not live to sundown. So you had to be worried, genuinely worried when you got out of bed in the morning. How am I gonna get through the day? Those cavemen survived. You know, the optimistic caveman got up in the morning and, you know, got taken out because he's like, ah, chill out. Today won't be a bad day. So you need a daily practice. It's spiritual hygiene. Just like you got to brush your teeth every day you get out of bed and you brush your teeth first thing in the morning, you're practicing mental hygiene by forcing yourself to smile the moment you get out of bed.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Yeah. And my compliment to Kim was Kim already practices what you teach. Kim's always happy. I'm going, how does she stay so happy? And I get more depressed. But it was really understanding what you were saying, that I get up in survival mode. I've got to be successful, and I am. But did it make me happier?

[Chris Voss]

Clearly.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Any comments on that, Chris?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. Well, then you get into a routine where this is how I've succeeded up to now. And a lot of people lift them themselves up off the ground to start with by getting after. You know, I'm. If. If you. If you're down and depressed, you know, anger can lift you out of that. And you remember, you know, focused attacking, this is how I've succeeded. And you don't realize that what got you here won't get you there. To get to the next level, you gotta. You gotta pivot out of that. It's very hard to do because the people, you know, that are largely positive are not as visible because the reinforcement in our. In our media, not just social media, not just today, but, you know, the attacking, the drama, that's what's reinforced on our social media. People brag about negotiations, they're going to break, and I had them over a barrel. The people that are really taking their lives to the next level. Like, you don't hear Warren Buffett doing an interview where he's bragging about slaughtering somebody because he knows that interferes with his success. You don't. Oprah, like, Oprah is highly positive. And you know, her, her success credentials are extremely high. But you don't see it because it's so quiet. So it's also harder. We don't get that much feedback in our, in our environment of how the positive launches more people forward more to the upper levels than the negative ever will.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

That, that brings up a great, great, great point that you're saying, Chris, because the media, they're so focused on the negative, and they're just bombarding in the social media, too. It's just bombarding us with all the negativity. And the world is. This is happening and this happening, and it's just so negative all the time. How do you, what do you do as a individual to combat that, to not get sucked into that?

[Chris Voss]

Well, what, you know, I, I intentionally curate. I do look at the media some, and I make it a point to. They're gonna, they're gonna feed me more of what I look at. So I am consciously curating the positive. And the more positive gets fed my direction. You know, they want to know what, what I like and, and what I click on. So I'm like, all right, what do I need for my mental health? You know, I'm focusing on, and I'm always looking for new sources, data and information on human behavior. Like, you know, like, Andrew Huberman is like the smartest dude out there right now on hard data on what works in human behavior. And because I listen to him enough, it then, you know, Amazon's listening. You know, you know, all the, however they're connected. I'm getting fed more and more positive, uplifting stuff because I intentionally curate that. And I do limit my, my media exposure.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

When I'm in there, I'm. I'm intentionally clicking on the stuff that's going to feed me the stuff that makes me feel good. And I'm careful not to get drawn down a rabbit hole because, you know, there's, there's there. They're trying to suck you down that negative rabbit hole every chance they get.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Once again, it's Robert Kiyosaki, the Rich Dad Radio Show. Our special guest today is Chris Foss. His book is called Never Split the Difference is an essential book for anybody who wants to be an entrepreneur. It's essential because communication is your skill set. That's all you got Basically because, you know, and then as my friend Blair Singer says, sales equals income. So when I meet somebody whose income is low, their communication skills are low or they're depressed, whatever the point may be. So with that said, we'll come back. We're going into more. Some of the things we're taught at. I went to professional sales school. I went all, I used to just take sales class after sales classes to sales classes and everything that Chris says I shouldn't have been doing. So we come back, we'll be talking more about what Chris teaches and how to split the difference, which is, I think, a much more humane way of being in sales with people you love and customers. We'll be right back.

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Welcome back. Robert Kiyosaki, the Rich dad Radio Show. The good news and bad news about money. And you can listen to the Rich dad program anytime, anywhere, on Andrew, on iTunes, Android, and YouTube. And please leave us a review when you listen. And all of our programs are [e-mail] we archive them for one reason. We don't sell anything. We don't recommend stocks, bonds, mutual funds, ETFs. We don't recommend any investments. But we do recommend study and education. And repetition is one of the best ways to learn. Like you don't learn to be a golfer. Taking one golf lesson, you know, it becomes a lifelong project. So go to richdadradio.com, listen to this program. And friends, family, especially business associates or spouses, partners, listen to this program with Chris Foss. The book is called Never Split the Difference. Priceless book. Because it's like I said, I'm reading this book right now. It's Karma by Sadhguru. And I'll just read it again because it's worth reading. The way Chris teaches you to communicate is if you allow your humanity to overflow, the divine will happen. And what I was, you know, I went to the, I went to the U.S. marine Corps. Four years Academy, six years Marine Corps and then four years of Xerox sales training. I could tie them down and I would win. But as Chris says, if you win too many times, people stop playing the game. Right. So, Kim, what do you want to say about the book? Chris's book?

[Kim Kiyosaki]

Yes. And so I just want to reiterate that Chris has incredible credentials and he was the lead international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI. I think he Knows a little bit about negotiations across. And then there's a whole series of other credentials that Chris carries. But I just wanted to say. So here, I just pulled this off my bookshelf, and you'll see all the tabs. And now. Now you're inspiring me to go back and reread this book and practice it even more, because it's a phenomenal book. But in the book, Chris, you talk about being a black swan negotiator. What. What is a black swan negotiator?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, it's somebody that just makes subtle little changes in the way that they communicate. You know, two millimeter shifts, to, you know, borrow a Tony Robbins phrase, that make all the difference in the world. I mean, little. Little things here and there. None of them are big adjustments. You know, they're just a little bit of change, and they make a massive difference. The little things that have huge impacts. So.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

So you popped in the first part about smiling. What. What are some other small. What are some other small changes that we can make?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, well, you know, the small one, but it's hard because it's against our wiring, is, you know, getting out of the yes business. Like, stop getting people to say yes and substitute a question. Go from, do you agree? To do you disagree? Go from does this look like something would work for you? To saying, is this a bad idea? Are you against. Have you given up on. I mean, that tiny shift from yes into no is monstrous. It's monstrous. And that. That. That's the single simplest shift, but also the hardest because it's against your wiring. Like, people love to hear the yes. Like, when you hear yes, you know, you feel the heavens part. The angels sang the birds of church, you know, but the difference is, is what does it feel like to say it versus hear it? And people feel safe when they say no.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

Yeah, it's. Well, that's what we've been trained at. Right. It'll get them to say yes. Get them to say yes. Get them to say yes. Yes, yes, yes. And so when you ask the question, do you want to buy yes? I mean, that's the training, right?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, that's the theory. Yes. Very good.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

And that's why I want to back up what Chris is saying, because I went to, you know, Xerox sales training for four years. My best friend and I were number one in sales, and we could. We call them tie downs, get them to say yeah. Wouldn't you agree? Wouldn't you agree? You know, wouldn't you rather have more time with your friend and Family, wouldn't you like this? We're in training them to say yes. So we kind of trick them into saying yes. So when I started listening to your podcast, I was going, holy moly. My job is get em to say no. So would you. But before I go into that, we'll hold that because that's probably the hardest thing I've had to learn is how to get the same no. Because I'm so entrained come to say yes. You know, in the Marine Corps there is no. No, sir. In the Marine Corps. Yes, sir. That's it, yeah. No, sir. So anyway, before going that, would you mind giving us what the Black Swan Group does and what services and products you offer?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, we coach and train negotiations. I mean, higher output. You know, we coach corporate teams, but we really cater to the top 1%. I mean, somebody like you who believes that learning is a lifelong process and reads, I mean, you know, you got to pick it up from the outside. It's people that say, well, experience is the best teacher and the only way that they learn is through experience. I mean, those are slow learners. So the top 1%, the people that are drawn to us, they believe in investing and learning in themselves and they want to collaborate with people. You know, they want to take their life to a higher level. They want to have a better put their kids in a better house and their kids to a better school and they're willing to invest in themselves to go after it. So we coach those people and we train them and very much like a real coach. I mean, everybody out there calls themselves a coach these days. A real coach stands on the sidelines with you and sends you into the game and watches how you perform. Then you come off the field and you make adjustments with that coach. And we are actively involved in coaching people through top level negotiations and staying with you while you work through it. And you know, everybody's got enough at stake, but you got to realize that on how much you're going to lose by screwing it up. And a lot of people don't really understand how much they're leaving on the table. So we coach and we train. Thanks.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

One more thing. You said something about a coach or somebody who's better than you will never criticize you or something. There was something you said in one of your podcasts. What was that?

[Chris Voss]

Because I. Yeah, I'm not a fan of critics. You know, never take advice from somebody you wouldn't trade places with. Never take directions from somebody who hasn't been where you were going and really if they're on your side, if they're really mentoring you, they're not going to criticize you. I mean, they're going to get in there with you. They're going to coach you so you perform better. They're going to make you go through the obstacle yourself, but they're going to coach you while you do it. They won't remove the obstacle. And you don't want people removing the obstacle for you. You want to learn how to get through it on your own.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Right. The best thing about what Chris is saying is that everything I was taught through all the military and sales training and all this is. Is opposite. And the hard part is being opposite. So, like, my job is to get. I was doing my best to get Kim to say no. She wouldn't say no to me. I gotta try something else here. So, Chris, from Christmas through New Year's and flying back on the plane, I was practicing. I couldn't get her to say no.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

And I forget some of the things that you had in here, but that I. That I do use. And there's one that you say, and I just used it the other day, and I didn't even realize I was doing it. And you said that these effective pauses, how powerful silence is. And I was talking with a gentleman. We had made an agreement, and he was backing out of that agreement. He said, well, I can't do that, but I could do this and this. And I said, well, I can't do this and this. And you need to fix this problem. You got to fix it now. And I just shut up. And that silence was like, it's painful because you want to talk and you're told to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, sell, sell, sell, sell. And I just shut up. And I'm like, you need to fix this. And I. And I shut up. And he said, I'll call you back. And he called me back, and he fixed the problem.

[Chris Voss]

Nice.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

I had to stop talking.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

And the reason what you teach Chris is so important. It's every day, and it's every day we got to make the same mistake. Like, I was still on U.S. marine, and I was still a Xerox salesman, number one in sales, tying people down, you know, manipulating all this. You know, you call it assertive. Marines call another word. You know, it's just tough as. And that. And the price was Kim. I was just too tough on her. Now Kim is tough as nails also. She is. Don't mess with Kim. I mean, your mother's tough. Kim says tough, but anyway. But There comes a time when it stops working. And I think that was one of the best lessons you gave about my friend. Donald is tough. I enjoy being around him, you know, but not everybody can take it.

[Chris Voss]

It's like, yeah, yeah, I got, you know, and, and I've been want. I've been watching Donald Trump for a long time. Like, I was in New York in the 80s and the 90s when he was there. Actually, one of the very last things I did in New York when I was volunteering on a suicide hotline, he agreed to host a fundraiser for our hotline at his apartment in Trump Tower. And he showed up, you know, it's fine. I, you know, he wouldn't recognize me if I walked through the door, you know, but we got a history of watching him, and I think he's done some spectacular things. And simultaneously, people get tired of getting beat over the head.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Tim, what was your experience? You know, we love Donald and his kids and all that. His two sons, Eric and Don Jr. And Ivanka. What was your experience with dealing with him?

[Kim Kiyosaki]

Well, my experience was terrific. I mean, he, he was, we never really had a negotiation, but he was very respectful. I mean, he was very respectful. I think the funniest thing when you talk about him wanting to win, I think one of the reasons he wanted to do a book with Robert is because Robert had the best selling personal finance book of all time. And he wanted, he wanted to be the best. I think that's why that happened. But no, he's, I, I enjoyed working with, with Donald very much. And he, I think he, I think he's, you know, he's, he practices what he preaches. He's a business guy and he's trying to get the country back as a business. So I'm all for it.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

So, Chris, how do you get somebody to say no? I mean, because my whole life has been geared to say yes.

[Chris Voss]

How?

[Robert Kiyosaki]

I mean, I practice and practice, practice. Over Christmas and New Year's, I couldn't get Kim to say no.

[Chris Voss]

Well, you know, a lot of it, A lot of it. It's really what comes after the word no. First of all, you know, are you against it's context. And when somebody says no, typically they start kicking in additional ideas like, no, I'm not against it. You know, you might shift into what stands in a way, I mean, really focusing on barriers and the other person's comfort level. Because we're just so wired that if I say yes, there's a hook here someplace.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

And I just. And understanding what the Other person's motivation is. But getting somebody to say no is really to trigger the follow on conversation. And that's what a lot of it is really about.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

So would you explain what happens from the human psychology point of whatever you call it, the neuropsychology, getting somebody saying a no versus a yes, because we are so conditioned I am to get the yes, and that's why I want some. But what's the other side of that, Chris?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, I just. We know from experience that people feel safe and protected when they say no. I mean, that's why people say no to everything. You know, they get their default answer is no. And I started looking back on, like when my son was 17 and the words dad, can I came out of his mouth. I would immediately say no. But I reflected back on that and then I would always say, now that I said no, what was it that you wanted? And I look back and I realized that I was always more open to the conversation after I said no. So the specific neuroscience behind it, you know, that's one of my conversations with Huberman because I was lucky enough to meet him. You know, for my birthday a couple months ago, my girlfriend Wendy convinced him to come down and have lunch with me as a birthday present. And he is an interesting cat. And who is this? We can talk for hours about the neuroscience.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Okay, good.

[Chris Voss]

His name is Andrew Huberman. He does a podcast out of Stanford. And he is, he's like, what you want in a PhD. Because, you know, a lot of PhDs, they just, they want to be Jesus. Because I said so. It's true. Because I said so. Huber runs a PhD, but he says, here's the data. Here's a study, peer reviewed, solid data. Don't listen to me because I said so. Go to the sources that I've come to. And so his info is very solid. And plus he's an interesting cat. And so we've talked about that. I threw some things at him. Like, I know this to be true. Let's figure out what the neuroscience is behind it. And I stumped him a couple of times. But, you know, you originally asked me about what's the neuroscience behind? No, we just know anecdotally how it opens people up. We got enough experience team wise that, you know, we just, we got everybody that we coach in a black swan method to get comfortable with it, and they accelerate their lives.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

There's another piece to the whole no and, and that you talk about in using I I is also like a turn off. Can you expand on that, well, that.

[Chris Voss]

That'S a little context driven also. But I is a very self centering thing. And you want to be conscious in the moment most of the time. You don't want to self center like a lot of psychologists will say, psychiatrists, therapists. What I'm hearing is, well then that takes a conversation away from the other person. It self centers on you when you should be focusing on them. So, you know, you sound versus I'm hearing changes the subtle dynamic against a tiny 2 millimeter shift. And 99% of the time the word I is going to work against you. And you want to focus on the other person, let them know that you're attentive to them as opposed to you're more fascinated with your own reaction.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

Now you talk about it instead of saying I, you know, what I'm hearing is it seems like, it feels like it sounds like. And that puts it back on them, right?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. It makes them feel more focused on the other thing too is what do you think is a hard question to answer. And if you say seems like you're thinking in depth, there's something about that second one. It seems like, or you seem like you have a reason for saying that, you get a much more honest response. An unvarnished download of what the other person is thinking. And even the other day when I was exhausted, I'm coming back from Dubai texting with one of my colleagues and I threw a question at him and he could have texted back, what makes you ask? Instead he texted back, seems like you have a reason for asking that. And I immediately downloaded all my thoughts. And if he'd have said what makes you ask? When I was tired, that what triggers in depth thinking? I didn't have the capacity when I was tired to do in depth thinking, but I could give him a straight download of what I was thinking.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

Interesting, interesting.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

So that's why I'll plug this book again. It's called Karma by Sadhguru. And this is what you're teaching. If you allow your humanity to overflow, the divine will happen. And I believe that's my experience of what you're teaching because you give other people the control to speak, not try and tie them down like we do when I was trained in the Marine Corps, but also at Xerox sales and things like that. So your work is profound and I really suspect it can be a major component for world peace or at least peace among people. Because, you know, Kim remembers the last time we were in Grays Island, South Carolina, and I sat down for Dinner. And then two seconds later, I'm ready to pound on this guy because I was talking to him about how I don't pay taxes, and he started telling me why I should pay taxes, and the Marine came out. You know what I mean? I just. Screw you. I just went to fight mode immediately. And so I think Kim noticed I'm smiling a little bit longer and speaking less. Have you noticed that, Kim?

[Kim Kiyosaki]

I have. Yes, I have. It's also to your whole subject. Your whole subject, Chris, of negotiations. Just that word triggers, I think, triggers reaction in people because.

[Chris Voss]

Right.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

Negotiation is always like a confrontation, and you want to win, and they want to win, and you're trying to. So your whole. Your whole premise is not to be combative, but to kind of figure it out together.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, exactly.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

And the other two things are the words. Like, you use the word how can I do that? Versus why are you doing that? What's the difference in why? And if you say, how, what's the difference? Because I notice I asked why a lot of the times, and I stopped doing that.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. Now, why is why is the hot button word. Like, you may not be accusing the other person of having made a mistake, but when you are accusing them of having made a mistake, you are going to say, why did you do that? And would you know, again, my. My. My son's observation, like everybody on earth, when they were two years old and they broke something, the nearest adult in a room pointed at him and said, why did you do that? And we get it beat into our head enough that if I'm being asked, why the other person is accusing me of making mistake, that it causes people to pull back, like, what did I do wrong? I don't know. And the business advice to find the other person's why. Finding motivation is good advice. It just ignores the fact that we all feel like we were getting hit with an electric shock when somebody says, why are you thinking that? Why did you do that? Why do you want that? My favorite switching out of why is another huge, huge change.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Right. Another thing you say is you don't say, yes. You just say, you win. You know, the thing I mean, it's. It is such. I mean, I'm. I'm like a. I mean, a student has, oh, my God. Because I need to change. And that's the most powerful thing that the Black Swan group does. Your book never split. The difference is how we gotta change if we're gonna bring more peace and more prosperity. But it's in our communication skills. And we come back, we have final words and wrap up in our discussion with Chris Ross. Chris Roth with Chris Voss. We'll be right back. Thank you. Welcome back Robert Kiyosaki, the Rich Dad Radio Show. The good news and bad news about money. I wanna thank special thanks to Chris Voss, the author of Never Split the Difference and chairman of the Black Swan Group limited Because if you are an entrepreneur or you want to get along better with people, your communication is crucial. And I fully disclose how my communication style evolved was four years of military school, six years Marine Corps and four years at Xerox. We're taught to speak in a certain way and it drives success, but it can also take success away. So you can listen to the Rich dad radio program anytime on itunes and Android and YouTube. Our programs are [e-mail] we archive them for you to listen to again. But more importantly, your friends, family and especially business associates. And you want to make more money or have better relationships with people. Chris Foster's work is essential. So final award is can you give us one more how do we access how does the world access the Black Swan Group and what other services do you offer?

[Chris Voss]

The gateway to everything. The gateway to the website, the gateway to our offerings is to sign up for the newsletter. And I'm guessing this is largely an international audience or significantly so. The best way is to go to the website blackswanltd.com the upper right hand side is a tab for the blog. Sign up for the newsletter comes out every Tuesday morning, will come wherever you are in the world, you're going to get a Tuesday morning, first thing in the morning, concise, actionable, free, you know, but free stuff doesn't mean it's valuable. If it's concise and actionable, that's what makes it valuable then plus that's the gateway. You got a lot of free stuff on the website and our offerings, whatever you need, wherever you are, we will meet you where you are. If you sign up for the newsletter, use it to supplement all your knowledge and take your negotiation skills forward.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

And I'm going to just add to that because again, this is my book. These are all the tabs, they all have notes on them. And what I love about your style, Chris, is as you said, these are simple things and actionable things you can put it, you can use starting today. There's simple little things, but it takes practice but it's a great, great, great resource for negotiation and so I want to really highly recommend people get never split the difference.

[Chris Voss]

Thank you.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Kim and I was negotiating back and forth over Christmas and New Year's, and I said, sherry knows your stuff.

[Chris Voss]

That means she wants to negotiate with you. Not against you. With you, not against you.

[Robert Kiyosaki]

Thank you, my friend. So thank you very much. Keep up the good work. It's very important work. And thank you all. Thank you very much, Chris. So with that, thank you all for listening to the Rich Dad Radio show. We'll see you next time. Thank you.

[Kim Kiyosaki]

This podcast is a presentation of Rich Dad Media Network.