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- [00:00]
Max Levchin
Fourth of July savings are happening now at the Home Depot with select appliances starting at $398 plus get free delivery on appliance purchases of $398 or more. No membership required.
- [00:10]
Robert Croak
Upgrade your kitchen with a modern and sleek GE Profile refrigerator featuring hands free Autofill for the perfect pour every time
- [00:17]
Max Levchin
and make laundry day easier with 2 in 1 washer dryer combo innovation that
- [00:21]
Robert Croak
completes laundry in about 90 minutes.
- [00:23]
Max Levchin
Shop Top brand appliances now at the Home Depot offer valid June 17th July at the US only C store online for details. So good, so good, so good. New markdowns up to 70% off are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Stock up and save big on shoes, tops, dresses, accessories and more must haves for summer.
- [00:43]
Robert Croak
Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts.
- [00:46]
Max Levchin
Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you Rack.
- [00:58]
Austin Hankwitz
You are tuning in to the Rich Habits Radar, our Friday episode of the Rich Habits podcast, where every Friday morning we're coming at you with the biggest headlines impacting you and your money. This episode is brought to you by vcx, the public ticker for private tech. My name is Austin Hankwitz and I'm joined by my co host Robert Croak. And this episode is going to be a little different. Instead of running through our normal three headlines and three radar points, we're going to be having a very special conversation with the CEO of affirmative firm Max Levchin. A firm recently reported their earnings results. The Stock is up 70% throughout the months of April and May. So what better time to chat with the CEO of a $25 billion company than after a ton of cool announcements? So, Robert, let's jump into our conversation with Max Levchin. Max, thanks again so much for joining us.
- [01:48]
Max Levchin
Great to be here again.
- [01:48]
Austin Hankwitz
So you all just wrapped up your 2026 investor forum and you're coming off your 10th straight quarter of 30% or higher. GM, most people listening right now still file a firm under the Buy now, pay later acronym. If that's the wrong box, what's the right one? What is a firm actually trying to become?
- [02:09]
Max Levchin
I think I'm done fighting the BNPL moniker. For a while I was raging against, you know, don't put me in a box. And I'm over that. What's important to understand is bnpl, or at least a firm within that category, is fundamentally a mind shift or a vibe shift, as the kids say these days. You can borrow money. It's a good Use of personal capital to stretch your money out into the future. And there's the right way to do it and the wrong way to do it. And we represent certainly to our biased opinion the right way to do it. We don't charge late fees, we don't do deferred interest. All the sort of things that are kind of scary because they really are. We don't do, we are super transparent. We do everything. Simple interest, we pre communicate, pre price, everything. We reward you for paying early. All the things that a firm stands for. So that's called bnpl. So be it. We are unique. We're still the only company in the industry that does all these things in a very specific, very deliberate way that is so profoundly pro consumer. And in that sense we are in a box of our own. And I'm quite happy being there.
- [03:06]
Austin Hankwitz
Yeah, maybe talk more about what makes you all so unique. I mean just for example, right, like walk me through a transaction a firm did maybe six months ago that makes the next one cheaper or more accurate.
- [03:17]
Max Levchin
Yeah. So as you guys know, every transaction that is powered by a firm is underwritten individually in the moment of transaction. So we take all the data that's available about you as a consumer, as a shopper, as a borrower and the thing that you're buying, drop it all into a giant AI model and it tells us here's the price of risk, here is the cost of lending you this money based on everything we know about you. So if six months ago you came in, we never met you before, we can infer a little bit of value based on your credit report data which we pull based on kind of what we think we know about the kind of thing you're buying. There's some very interesting fraud related data. If you're buying something, be easily fenced in a street corner, there's a little bit of an increase in risk. If you're buying something that is essentially a capital asset, that's a lower risk. Buying a mattress, we're easily convinced that's probably something going to sleep on as opposed to try to sell it to the highest bidder, et cetera. So the models take all the data in and give us a price and we show it to you and say, hey, this is the cost of credit. A lot of times the retailer or sometimes the manufacturer will pay your cost of credit or pay your interest for you. So it's a 0% loan, but in either case there's some associated cost that the model tries to predict and we're very, very good at that. We've been at it for 15 years. Models are very pre. The next time you come around, assuming you have paid your bills from a firm on time or early, which we love, we'll say, hey, you know what, we know more about you now. It's not just the publicly available credit data. It's not just what you're buying. It's also the fact that we've seen you in action. The cost of risk will go down and we'll pass it right on to you and your next transaction will be cheaper. And it goes on and on. Models are built to take that into account every single time. And that's why it's so powerful to underwrite every one of these transactions in real time.
- [04:58]
Austin Hankwitz
And when you say pass that on to the consumer, how does that work?
- [05:02]
Max Levchin
Just ends up being lower interest. Got it.
- [05:03]
Austin Hankwitz
That's really cool. I appreciate you walking through that Max.
- [05:05]
Robert Croak
Two weeks ago you announced firm is going into Google search, AI mode and the Gemini app via Google. Pay for folks who haven't internalized what agentic commerce means yet. Paint the picture for them because from a year from now, someone asked Gemini to plan a trip to Europe. What does the checkout experience actually look like and where's a firm sit in it?
- [05:27]
Max Levchin
It's a great question. And you know, the future is super interesting and exciting and it's fun to try to participate in both predicting and building it. This is already happening. This isn't quite figment of someone's imagination. So if you go into Gemini today and you type in, hey, I'm going to Europe, help me figure out how to get there. Here's my budget. I want to be able to fly a family of four. This city, this city, et cetera, et cetera. Gemini will do a pretty good job saying, all right, I can see some information about airlines, I can help you shop for seats, et cetera. So that's already happening. The next thing that is going to start happening more and more. And it's already beginning. And we are an excited part of this is you can tell Gemini or your favorite bot or your favorite LLM, hey, I actually want to close the transaction now. I like the price, I like what I'm seeing. How can I afford this? And it has been our job for 15 years to answer the question, how can I afford this in the most transparent, sensible, lowest cost possible way. And so what we've built are these plugins that go into LLMs and pipe up right as you ask this question, hey, how do I pay for this thing? And obviously we're not the only ones. There'll be plenty of choices. But the thing we're so excited about is think in the past. The thing that I love to rage against, this idea of zero with a tiny asterisk. Don't read the fine print, you're getting screwed. You don't know how, doesn't matter. That's the business model of old. The business model of a firm is you are not going to get screwed. We take it as our responsibility to you to give you the exact price in a super transparent language. One of our core values is no fine print. It's always been hard to compete against those who have a somewhat less scrupulous approach, because the fine print is really fine. You can't read it. And I can rage against the fine print all I like, but the consumer who's got two kids to travel to Europe with is not actually going to have the time to be like, wait a second, I got to read the fine print. So they still get trapped. They still get into these awful transactions that later on they come to regret, but too late. What's amazing about chatbots, amazing about AI, is each one of these bots has a PhD in consumer finance. They are looking out for you every single moment. And so, as you say, hey, how can I afford this thing? A firm will pipe up with, hey, here is a pay in six plan. Here's the exact cost of interest. If you prepay, the interest is going to come out, or here's a trip by an airline that we have a partnership with, they will pay your interest for you. So it's a true no interest loan. Doesn't matter if you're a couple of days late, doesn't matter if you forgot a payment. We're not going to flip on you and charge you a bunch of interest you didn't expect like some of the other characters that I enjoy raging against. And so. So that combination of extreme consumer convenience, transparency, and AI being the world's best watch of these fine print gotchas, we think is just going to not only do great things for our business, but fundamentally change the bar, raise the bar on financial products. Every single person asking their AI to help them buy something, afford something plan a financial decision is going to get a better outcome because these things are never going to be fooled. They're capable of doing advanced math right there in front of you and boiling it down for you in a single line. This one has no fees is a pretty good thing. Cool. They're not going to make a decision for you, but they're going to make your decision most informed decision possible.
- [08:28]
Robert Croak
You mentioned competition. You're launching alongside Klarna in the same Google integration. From a retail investor standpoint, why doesn't this become a race to zero where the AI agent just picks the cheapest option every time? Spell out what a firm's moat is in this agent mediated world because I just want them to really understand. Because it does seem like a challenge for you guys, but I love the fact that you have all this transparency. So walk our listeners through that.
- [08:54]
Max Levchin
A challenge we are embracing wholeheartedly. So I think there are two fundamental things that make us different. Maybe three. I'll start with two and then I'll add one more number one. Much to my chagrin, by the way. Look, this advantage I'll give away. Anyone who wants it is welcome to it. So stop charging late fees, stop doing compounding interest, stop having transaction fees. All the fees that the industry loves to throw in. We don't do any of that. And for years I feel like we just never quite got our fare share of love and recognition for those who use us know exactly what we stand for. In fact, our best customers are the ones that have been late by a day or two. I used to love listening in on phone calls like, hey, I'm late by a day or two. Can I just be current and you'll be okay? Like, what's the late fee? There is no late fee. Like, oh my God, that is so cool. Like I've heard that that is so cool so many times. It's just, it's the happiest sound. We are still largely the only player that does this at any kind of scale. And so right now, as these AIs compare all these providers to each other, we tend to stand out in a good way of like, hey, this is the one with no fees. So I will gladly share that podium with anyone who wants to be on it. But for now, we are unique. Maybe the more permanent or at least harder to dismantle advantage. We've been at this idea for 15 years, which also means we've gone to literally hundreds of thousands of retailers and struck special pricing contracts with them where they will pay your interest either fully or partially. Sometimes during a promotional period, sometimes during the day, every day of the year. But the same level of transparency, the same level of no fees, no gotchas, zero means zero. All the stuff that we just bring from ourselves, we pass on or invite retailers and brands and manufacturers to participate in. So when you go into a Chatbot and you're buying a Samsung TV on a zero percent transaction, you know it's zero because it's a firm making the promise. But it's also unique. You can try to buy it with any other payment provider, BNPL or otherwise. You're going to find yourself paying interest, you're going to find yourself also wondering if there's going to be any fees. But even without it, you're going to find it a little bit more expensive. So quite happy to compete on that facet of price because we do have these contracts and they take a long time to negotiate, they take a long time to execute very carefully because retailers don't have infinite margins. So each time they subsidize this sort of a 0% loan, they have to believe it's a consumer who's only going to buy when they are seeing this particular promotion powered by us. And we have incredible amount of experience doing it, but also huge systems of software that we've built over the years to provide visibility and transparency to the retailers to make sure that they can run these ad campaigns responsibly, thoughtfully and get the most for their money here. So that's a huge, very, very sophisticated advantage that we bring to bear that we've used very successfully over the years outside of AI, we think is going to be multiplicative within AI. And then just one last bit, since the two and a half, the other thing we've done for the last 15 years, we've gotten better and better at underwriting. And so at any given moment when we are side by side with any one of our competitors, especially for things like 6 months transactions or 12 month transactions or something that's actually quite long term and has real risk to it, as people in credit say, 12 opportunities to default, 18 opportunities to default. It's a bad joke, but it's not completely wrong. We're very good at sizing that risk and pricing it correctly. Typically we approve more people while having lower losses. And so that again create a moat or an opportunity for us to outperform our competitors. So we love competing. I'm generally sort of a competitive person, but feel very good competing in a space where the Judge has a PhD in consumer finance.
- [12:27]
Robert Croak
Austin. Before we ask Max our next question, support for the show comes from vcx, the public ticker for private tech. For generations, American companies have moved the world forward through their ingenuity and determination. And for generations, everyday Americans could be part of that journey through perhaps the greatest innovation of all, the US stock market.
- [12:47]
Austin Hankwitz
It didn't matter whether you were a factory worker in Detroit or a farmer in Omaha, anyone can own a piece of great American companies. But now that has changed. Today our most innovative companies are staying private rather than going public. And the result is that everyday Americans are excluded from investing and getting left further and further behind, while a select few reap all of the benefits. Until now.
- [13:08]
Robert Croak
Introducing vcx, the public ticker for private tech. VCX by fundrise gives everyone the opportunity to invest in the next generation of innovation, including the companies leading the AI revolution, space exploration, defense tech, and so much more.
- [13:23]
Austin Hankwitz
So visit getvcx.com for more information. That is getvcx.com carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risk, charges and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Fund's prospectus@getvcx.com this is a paid sponsorship. Back to our conversation with Max Levchin. I want to linger on that half of the two and a half that you had, you know, mentioned there around the consumer side of things, because we're seeing credit card delinquencies climbing. You know, household savings are getting drawn down. But you also said on your call that you're not seeing deterioration as it relates to your business. Help me understand that. Is a firm's consumer different or kind of like what you were alluding to? Are you just better at saying no and truly underwriting every single one of these transactions? It's, it's fascinating.
- [14:11]
Max Levchin
The answer is actually kind of both. Or maybe yes is the we are better at saying no in a sense that we have the right or the opportunity to be the consultant or the, you know, sometimes people ask me, like, what is affirm? Like, what are you to me as a person, and I'm not really a brand marketer, so I always struggle with these, like, what is it? But someone I know who is a brilliant brand marketer said, you're like the smart older sister. Like, you're like, hey, that's a bad idea. Put down that wallet. Like, don't buy that thing. You should not indulge. Like, this is the. Or, hey, that's cool. You deserve it. Go get it. And so the ability to say no or yes in the right moment, the right way, as a sort of a friend or a coach or somebody who's actually out to look for your best financial outcome is something that we're very, very good at. And so because that is a fairly unique value proposition, we appeal to a particular type of a consumer. Like the person who wants that participatory engagement from their credit provider is Someone who's actually quite motivated not to be behind our consumer knows we're going to say no when we feel you really shouldn't be buying this. We also very frequently will say things like, Hey, $600 bicycle is a little bit more than you can afford right now. However, we're quite happy to lend you 2/3 of this, but you do have to put 1/3 down as a down payment because that's what we think is the right sort of contours of a loan for you for this purpose right now. And so that consumer is doing fine, but it's also because they want to do fine, they're motivated to improve their financial reality. Like maybe the most shocking thing about a firm is that we are a living proof that in the last 12 months, 27ish million such people exist. You would think that, you know, we hear in the front pages of various newspapers is people don't care about their financial reality. They're sort of shopping with their eyes closed. They're not reading their financial statements. And I'm here to tell you that's not true. We have tens of millions of people who are coming back to us now almost seven times a year saying, hey, make sure the thing I'm buying isn't going to bite me. I'm not going to regret it. I'm not going to be figuring out how the hell did I get myself into this kind of debt. And so that customer exists, they shop with us, they're doing fine. I think some of the less scrupulous providers are happy to lend money because they'll make it back in things like late fees and delinquency charges, and we don't do that. And turns out there's a lot of people in America who actually quite prefer that sort of way of living, and
- [16:27]
Austin Hankwitz
we don't blame them at all.
- [16:29]
Max Levchin
I think I'm preaching to the choir a little bit here. But I just want to your, your viewers, your listeners to know they're not alone. There's a lot of people who really want to have a lifestyle that they can afford, but also profoundly enjoyable.
- [16:40]
Robert Croak
Yeah, I want to go into some more numbers. You've been throwing around all these great growth numbers, but I saw that the affirm card more than doubled to 4.4 million cardholders. And you also announced a firm edge to embed pay over time inside banking apps that now reaches 130 million Americans. Both of these moves are about going from a button at checkout to a default payment system inside of someone's life. How do you think about this from a cannibalization versus an expansion here for people that are trying to buy things the right way and use your service.
- [17:15]
Max Levchin
We're not so large as to worry about cannibalization of anything just yet for a very long time. Like the the total addressable market of US commerce is, call it on the order of a trillion dollars. Plus that we can play in right now just given the products that we have. 20%, last I read, happens online. All those metrics are giant. If you look at the number we put out as this fiscal year expected, GMV volume, It's still touching 50 billion. That seems like an enormous number. And it is an enormous number just in the absolute scale. But in the grand scheme of credit card payments or commerce payments, in any dominator you choose, we are so tiny. Cannibalization doesn't enter my imagination. So that's sort of part one, part two. I'm completely serious when I shake my fist at the compounding interest and revolving debt and fees that shouldn't exist. And it's the best kind of problem to have if suddenly more debit cards in America end up growing this borrowing capability that we built into our debit card. Because it is that same mode of responsible borrowing with no fees, no compounding, et cetera. So bring that functionality to other issuers, banks, credit unions, fintechs, whoever wants to partner with us. And we're privileged to have a couple of our earliest partners on stage with us at Investor forum to just telegraph the excitement the industry has about this product. It's great. I would love for every bank that issues debit cards to have a firm edge, the functionality of a firm card built into their debit card. One of the cool things that sort of, you know, bears repeating. The unique thing that we bring to bear isn't just the underwriting, isn't just the sort of clever technical functionality. We do have these arrangements with many, many retailers, many brands that will subsidize these transactions for you. So embedded in that partnership that Affirmedge is, is a giant tome of promotional finance available to anyone who participates. So we think there's a huge opportunity. We're very excited. We are but a tiny speck of consumer finance in this country. We would love to bring our flavor to everyone.
- [19:21]
Austin Hankwitz
That's fantastic. Fascinating. And I remember when the affirm card first came out, it was such this, you know, revolutionary product in the sense that everything that you bought on the affirm card was sort of pay in for. Right? It's not just like does this specific retailer offer some sort of, you know, Pay in four for a product. It's like, no, you can go buy your Blistex or that's a bad example, but you go, I'm looking at my Blistex here. You can go buy something at Walgreens or CVS or something, whatever you need there, use your Affirm card for it. And you know, you sort of have all the same abilities to to pay in four like you would if it was a specific retailer. Now, being able to unlock that to not just the 4.4 million people that use the Affirm card, but to your point with this Affirm Edge, I mean that is fascinating stuff.
- [20:01]
Max Levchin
Just for the record, it's more than Pay in four. So Pay in four is a great tool. You know, Blistx is probably, I mean, I don't know what kind of Blistx you buy, but mine is quite affordable even in today's strange world. But a nice lunch, you might consider splitting into four if that's what your heart desires. But a firm card incidentally supports a pay now mode. So a Blistax is probably very appropriate to just pay for it right now, move on. But if you're looking at a TV or a fridge or something quite pricey, you can go into the Affirm app and with Edge into your bank app and say hey, the next transaction at Best Buy, not a current integrated Affirm partner, when I tap my card there, I want it to be alone anyway. The magic of the Affirm card and included in Affirm Edge stack is the ability to say hey at the store, whether Affirm is tightly integrated or not integrated at all or some combination of the two. The next transaction, I want it to be a loan and I want it to be pre approved and I want to know my rate, if any and I want it to be a 6 month loan or a 12 month loan. I want a budget, I want the budget to be up to this number and if I spend less, I want it to adjust down and all of this happens seamlessly, basically automatically, while telling you all the time, here's exactly how it's going to work, here's exactly how much you're going to pay, not a penny more. All the same functionality you come to expect from a firm and it does support. Pay4 certainly is a very popular product, but goes out to four years sometimes. So this is. It's a very, very versatile tool. The reason it's been growing by far the fastest in all of our product ecosystems because it is just such a powerful tool and it really is a full featured replacement for a credit card with absolutely no revolving, absolutely no fees, absolutely no annual fees or anything.
- [21:35]
Austin Hankwitz
I mean, that's the story right there. And I hope everyone listening right now completely understands that at the end of the day, we need credit, we need liquidity. People need to have the opportunity to say I need to borrow X amount of dollars for this refrigerator or for this whatever it might be. And unfortunately, the system that has existed for the last several decades is ambiguity and an asterisk next to the zero percent. Right? That is, that, that's been the system. But you all are flipping that on its head with authenticity, transparency. And of course now with this, 130 million Americans that can do this in their banking apps. I mean it's, this is incredible. Now, Robert, before we ask Max our final question, we absolutely are in the summer months and after what's been going on in the Middle east and now the new Fed chair and inflation, like uncertainty, has never felt so high. The major indices have been all over the place. Let's be real, the Fed has completely flip flopped on their rate cut assumptions. And again, inflation remains just incredibly sticky. Here we just got a four handle on inflation. 4.2% unreal.
- [22:41]
Robert Croak
And that is why it's never been more important to have a plan and stick to it. And if you're a long term investor like us, the plan has never been easier to come up with and implement dollar cost average and ride the wave 100%.
- [22:55]
Austin Hankwitz
Robert, we've been talking about how important it is to dollar cost average for years now. And when the market feels shaky, it's hard to see your progress. This is why we recommend being part of a social platform like Blossom Social. Because on Blossom you're able to see your entire portfolio in a very clean and simple way, which includes your holdings, your performance, your dividends, everything you can think of.
- [23:15]
Robert Croak
You're also able to follow other long term investors on the platform, helping you stay motivated during these uncertain times. Not to mention, the portfolios on Blossom are all verified. So if you're seeing someone buy or sell a name, it's because they actually did it in their own brokerage accounts.
- [23:31]
Austin Hankwitz
We're both on there, our portfolios are on there, all the fun stuff. So if you want to join us, search Blossom Social in the App Store, head over to blossomsocial.com and don't forget they just came out with their AI assistant, Beavis, where you can ask it any question about your portfolio, which I think is a really cool feature. So again, blossomsocial.com, link in the show notes below. All right, Robert, let's now ask Max our final question. I know we've only got you for a couple more minutes, Max, so last question here for you. You've spent your entire career here building products around how people handle money. What is the one money habit you think most people are missing? And what would you tell someone who feels like the financial system today has just not really worked for them?
- [24:15]
Max Levchin
I think people just. And I am in that list. And you're totally right. I've been doing this since my early 20s, so I really should get it by now. But somebody tells you, $1,000 loan, 6 months, 20% APR, what are you going to pay at the end of the year? People just stare blankly at the wall and make estimates, and they're all over the map and they're always wrong. It's a great party trick I used to do back in the old days. I'd fly to New York to try to raise money for a firm when we were a tiny fledgling. And I would go into venture capital offices or hedge fund offices, and I'd be like, hey, I have a basic math question for you guys. You're smart people, you trade stocks, you're serious, thousand dollars loan, blah, blah, blah. What's the total cost? People are like, oh, yeah, I got this. And they'd be like, 80% wrong or 100% wrong. And so people are not very good at computing revolving credit costs. And it's designed to be hard to compute, so don't feel bad. But if you choose to use that product, or if you at least understand, want to understand how it works, make sure you have a sense for it. And it's a thing that often enough people just sort of say, you know what? I give up. I can't get it. I don't understand why I'm in debt. I'll probably never get out. And a lot of people we know are struggling through life financially because they just sort of given up trying to understand. And obviously, our mission since the very beginning, my personal mission for a long time has been, how do you shine a light? How do you make it easier to understand? How do you build products where we can compete with the tools that exist today that are not designed for transparency but some degree of basic understanding of financial mathematics is a really, really useful skill that an awful lot of people don't seem to fully understand. It's not you. The system is built to be confusing. There is an alternative. We are it. Please try us. But don't feel bad that you can't do the exponential math. It's designed to be difficult.
- [26:00]
Austin Hankwitz
It's designed to be difficult. I like that. Max, thank you so much for joining us again here on the Rich Habits podcast. We're so grateful to have hosted you and for taking some time out of your busy schedule. So excited that, you know, the investor forum went so well and all these great stats. Can't wait to have you back to talk more about it in the future.
- [26:16]
Max Levchin
Thank you guys for having me and the always great to see you.
- [26:18]
Robert Croak
Thanks, Max.
- [26:19]
Austin Hankwitz
Robert, another incredible conversation with Max Levchin. So grateful that he takes time out of his busy schedule, especially after these incredible earnings calls. I just saw his stock is up literally 60 something percent in just the last two months now from the lows of March, I think it was when the markets kind of hit that bottom at the end of March there. I mean, it's incredible to see these partnerships. It's so cool to see, you know, his affirm card doubling to 4.4 million cardholders. 10th straight quarter of 30% plus GMV growth. I mean, they are building this company to not only solve problems, but scale indefinitely. It's really, really exciting to see. And I guess the last like thing I just want people to reflect upon with these conversations because let's be real, Robert. We've talked about buy now, pay later. It kind of gets this like negative connotation for good reason. It's people that normally can't afford things. They just say, oh, I'm just going to put on the buy now, pay later. And this happened to me after our first conversation with Max. But I've completely switched on what I think about a firm specific specifically because of Max's deep conviction in authenticity, transparency, clarity. Like I said it during the episode, we need credit. We need to have liquidity. We need to have that revolving ability to say, oh, I need to have access to $1200 if I need to go buy this refrigerator or pay this person or whatever I have to do here. And being able to lean on a firm to automatically do that underwriting transaction by transaction and then saying, hey, we've realized you're good at this. We're actually going to pass savings on to you by offering you a lower interest rate or whatever it might be. I just, I really appreciate a firm's business model and their mission toward transparency and transparent credit.
- [27:59]
Robert Croak
I agree with you 100%. Max has changed my mind completely because we always talk about people, you know, staying out of high interest credit card debt and all of that. But a firm has literally built the best mousetrap to allow people access to capital they need for short term, but in a way that is fair and reasonable so they're not getting into this high interest debt that I love what a firm is doing. I think it's really great for people. And I think about like the average home that maybe is doing a decre model in the spring and needed a thousand dollars worth of lumber to do this remodel and they can put it out over four or six months without all of the fees and all of the other different things that run the bill up on them. So I think it's a really effective way to borrow money for people in their day to day lives. And I love that Max comes on the show and shares it with our
- [28:48]
Austin Hankwitz
audience and to just linger on that for a moment. If there are fees associated with whatever is going on, you know what they are, Their fees are upfront. It's like, yes, we're going to charge you this much interest, you prepay whatever. Like this is exactly how much this total cost is going to be. To Max's point on that last question, it's not, you know, what's a thousand dollars of credit card debt for six months compounding at 20? I don't know. And nobody knows. And that's why Visa and MasterCard are several billion dollar companies because they've been able to fool us all to figure out what our interest actually is. Now, alongside the late fees and the hidden fees and all this other stuff, I just, I love the authenticity, the transparency. And, you know, it kind of goes back to Robert, what, you know, Max was talking about when it comes to these AI agents, all of these agents, I've already done this. I remember doing this. I literally was, was with Google and I was trying to figure out flights and I actually asked Google, Gemini, I said, hey, I need a flight from here to here. Help me find the best one and how do I buy it. And it found me, the flights, it did all this stuff for me, but I didn't actually do the checkout thing with them. I don't think the tech was there just yet, but I could absolutely see it getting there. But to Max's point, he's right. Those AI agents are going to be genius PhDs in personal finance and these numbers. And so what begins to happen is if you run a good, honest business and you're not trying to deceive an AI agent, you know, you can deceive humans because we're not, you know, we don't know better sometimes when it comes to these hidden fees. But if it's written somewhere, that AI agent's gonna find it and they're gonna let you know about it. Right? So if you just run an honest business like that's the moat and it's a pretty simple moat.
- [30:29]
Robert Croak
Yeah, I love it. You know, and one of the best quotes from their call that Max said, and I'm gonna read this so I get it right, the world is divided into companies run by engineers and companies trying to figure out how engineer run companies are leapfrogging them. And that's what it's all about. This AI and all the technology that they built into a firm has just made them a better mousetrap. I don't know any other way to say it. Making it more affordable for people to borrow money. And that's what it's all about. That and the transparency. It's a win for me and I love having Max on the show.
- [31:03]
Austin Hankwitz
Thanks again to Max and the team for joining us and orchestrating this conversation. Cannot wait to have Max back on the show very soon. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month
- [31:58]
Max Levchin
required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.
- [32:02]
Austin Hankwitz
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