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Ben Bullen
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartradio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you as always so much for tuning in. And let's hear it for our own knight in shining production armor, super producer Max
Noel Brown
Kalu Kale. It is Max Williams day.
Ben Bullen
I love.
Noel Brown
I love Sir Maxwell James Williams III, Esquire Junior Senior.
Ben Bullen
Did you get Esquire?
Noel Brown
Sure. And add Dr. In there as well.
Ben Bullen
Yeah, Vaughn something. Also, that's Mr. Noel Brown, the one and only.
Noel Brown
That's me. So, Max, you're dubbed diploma and You've got your PhD. You've got a lot of honor writers going on there.
Ben Bullen
And they called me Ben Bullen for tax purposes here. Guys, have you ever been to Medieval Times?
Noel Brown
Well, I did once travel back in time. I woke up from a dream and I found myself in some sort of dungeon. No, that's not true. I made that up. But I have not actually been to the restaurant, the themed restaurant and attraction Medieval Times. The only experience I have of it, frankly, is from the movie the Cable Guy.
Ben Bullen
Okay. Yeah.
Noel Brown
My interaction is just knowing Jonathan Strickland and Renaissance. Okay. Medieval Times at all times. Wouldn't you agree though, Ben, if I. If we've been to a Renaissance festival, we've more or less had the Medieval Times experience short of the. The crappier food at Medieval Times. Because we can all argue that Ren Ren Fair food pretty good.
Ben Bullen
Yeah. Of course those carneys know what they're doing.
Noel Brown
Those carnies and those carnivores, all them turkey legs.
Ben Bullen
Oh, man. I gotta tell you, I took some of the friends of ours out for a group field trip to the Renaissance festival, and my girlfriend and I completely overestimated the nostalgia factor. So we each got a turkey leg. Those turkey legs are so big. Those are two people turkey legs.
Noel Brown
And it's weird, some of them. Maybe it's like on a per turkey leg basis or maybe this is a feature of every turkey leg. They got this real weird flap of like tendony stuff in the middle.
Ben Bullen
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Noel Brown
That kind of pulls out like a little. Like a feather. Like a rip cord. There's got to be a science name for that.
Ben Bullen
There is. And hopefully, you guys, that is outside
Noel Brown
of the scope of this conversation. We, we do have.
Ben Bullen
We've been thinking about this. We've been thinking about the. The iconic image of knights in shining armor. Because as round tables, lances of lots, there's no shortage of fascinating paintings, work of works of literature and film and TV now like Game of Thrones, Monty
Noel Brown
Python and the Holy Grail is how I know any about the medieval times at all, frankly.
Ben Bullen
Yeah, Tis but a scratch shout out to the knights of knee. But, Noel, you recall how these things always depict these absolute warriors who were plated up like little mech. Like mechs, dude. And they're doing all sorts of crazy physical stunts and all kinds of punishing
Noel Brown
weather and curling around those flaily thingies, the morning stars. Is it evening star or morning star?
Ben Bullen
Morning star. You nailed it. And then they fight. Despite the fact that they're carrying hundreds of pounds of armor on them, they fight for hours against anybody. And you watch this. And at some point during a battle scene, you have to say, wouldn't most modern people collapse after just a short period of even running or walking briskly?
Noel Brown
Well, because unlike the Mex, Ben, these don't have any exoskeletal robo attachments. This is a burden borne by humans. And yeah, you know, because you've got to think there are different situations where this kind of armor might have been employed. The medieval times of it all being the tourneys, a little more, you know, controlled. And then, of course, you got folks literally charging into battle against, you know, an opponent that's out there to murder them.
Ben Bullen
Right.
Noel Brown
Yeah.
Ben Bullen
And that's our question today. Did knights really wear suits of armor?
Dr. Joy
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
Jennie Garth
This message is brought to you by Apple Card. You can apply for Apple Card right from the Wallet app on your iPhone. Get started in the Wallet app today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and
Dr. Joy
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Noel Brown
This episode of Ridiculous History is brought to you by Grainger.
Ben Bullen
This is the story of the 1.
Noel Brown
As a maintenance tech at a university, he knows ordering from multiple suppliers takes time away from keeping their arena up and running.
Ben Bullen
That's why he counts on Grainger to get everything he needs. From lighting and H vac parts to plumbing supplies, all in one place.
Noel Brown
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Ben Bullen
Cole 1-800-Grainger click granger.com or just stop
Noel Brown
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Karen and Georgia
I turned off news altogether.
Ben Bullen
I hate to say it, but I
Dr. Joy
don't trust much of anything.
Noel Brown
It's the rage bait.
Ben Bullen
It feels like it's trying to divide people. We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.
Noel Brown
What's up, y'?
Dr. Joy
All?
Noel Brown
Summer's got a different tempo. Everything's a little looser, brighter. One plan turns into another. You hear something, you stay a little longer. Next thing you know, you're somewhere you didn't plan to be. It's those in between moments. That's where the ideas hit. Conversations stretch out. Little memories sneak up on you. Sometimes it's just about what's in your hand. That color, that chill. The new Tropical Butterfly Refresher from Starbucks. Guava and passion fruit flavors with mango pineapple flavored pearls. Yeah, that feels like summer boom before you even taste it. Funny how one small stop becomes the best part of the day. Start your summer rhythm with Starbucks. Try the new Tropical Butterfly Refresher from Starbucks.
Ben Bullen
To get into this, we were talking a little bit about sports off air. One interesting thing about football is, is that there's very little protective gear.
Noel Brown
I mean, soccer.
Ben Bullen
Soccer.
Noel Brown
I mean, yeah, we have football. Yeah. Shin guards is the one that I always remember from being a youth. Do they still wear shin guards? Is that part of the kit?
Ben Bullen
I don't know, but there's a great show by our pal Miles called Ain't It Footy, which is examining football when we're talking about armor. What's interesting, guys, is that for most of early human history, humanity was wrestling with this huge life threatening dilemma. They were the smartest creatures they knew. And the humans evolved to specialize in various things like running, long distances, persistence, hunting. But all that specialization comes with a price. Humans don't have a protective shell like a turtle or an armadillo. They can't regenerate limbs like some lizards or other creatures. Human are best defined as squishy.
Noel Brown
Yeah. They are perishable creatures. They are dainty, delicate little flowers for sure. We don't do well under duress.
Ben Bullen
So if you don't have a shell, if you don't have a great powerful Maw of sharp teeth. If you can't regenerate limbs, you have to rely on your tool making abilities to make up for all the stuff you lack.
Noel Brown
Yeah, I mean, the human superpower or ultimate adaptive capability would be the brain, the ability to reason, the ability to think about thinking and figure this stuff out to, you know, improve their situation 100%.
Ben Bullen
Dude. And this is why we find it no surprise that body armor is an ancient human invention. The first records of something like body armor as opposed to, you know, regular clothing is found in ancient Sumer, in ancient Sumeria in today's southern Iraq. And then if you fast forward to like 1400 BCE, you see the emergence of something like heavy plate armor, usually like a chest plate, just the one kind of like how you would see a bulletproof vest today.
Noel Brown
You know what I'm always fascinated by when I think about history of armor. I just think about the kind of stuff that those kids wore in the movie Hook, you know, like pieces of wood, you know, various little trinkets that they find lying around leather under carriages. You know, I mean, I think that was sort of really the earliest form of ballistic protection would be just real sturdy hide and material.
Ben Bullen
Way more common than the armor that you see in films. We know, of course, shout out to the far East. We know those folks had a deep history of armor because again, they realized factory setting human skin is pretty vulnerable. That's why we invented clothing. Right. In each of these cases, and I know you love this concept, we see parallel thinking. The armor they make depends on the material resources and the crafting techniques that their arbors had at the time. So it's interesting. And shout out to our research associate, Jabari. It's interesting to think that if we took a blacksmith from medieval Europe and showed him armor from far Japan or from China, he would be fascinated by the different materials, he'd be fascinated by the manufacturing, but he would immediately know exactly what he was looking at because he was making the same stuff too.
Noel Brown
Well, I mean, this is the kind of parallel thinking that doesn't require too much of a leap because as you said, Ben, humans are inherently squishy creatures. And it is a very self serving and pretty intuitive idea to what if we could protect ourselves from getting squished?
Ben Bullen
Exactly.
Noel Brown
Yeah.
Ben Bullen
And our hypothetical blacksmith here is, you know, the odds are stacked in his favor because armor is human shaped.
Noel Brown
Oh my gosh, another one. Yes, 100%. Another one that comes to mind is there is a segment in the incredibly delightful Coen Brothers anthology film. Was it Buster Scruggs.
Ben Bullen
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Noel Brown
Where Steven Root, the delightful character actor who plays like a banker who's being robbed by, I wanna say, James Franco, just pre cancellation, he emerges from behind the cash counter covered in pots and pans, you know, and it's just like, this stuff could have been improvised so many ways just by stuff that was laying around. And it's just such a, like, human instinct to be like, how do I kind of turtle up and protect myself?
Ben Bullen
And another thing that would astonish our hypothetical blacksmith would be the sheer cost of this heavy fit. That's where we get to the myth busting. And that's why I think you're right about people MacGyvering more often than they manufactured. We all remember those films where we all know how Hollywood loves to spotlight military dress and huge battle scenes. You got kitted out knights, they're charging toward the enemy on horses. They're waving their lances.
Noel Brown
Screaming, shrieking, hollering.
Ben Bullen
Yeah, hooting and such. That stuff definitely did happen, but it was nowhere near as glamorous as the films imply, for sure.
Noel Brown
And if you do get a chance, I know we always are shouting out the met. In New York City, there's a whole wing of that massive place that is all just like medieval armor. And you're gonna see a range of stuff, including the much more elaborate, fearsome looking, for lack of a better word, at the moment, ceremonial kind of stuff that would have maybe been designed to be worn by a king or to designate some higher level figure who maybe wasn't necessarily gonna be out there swinging the sword, but needed to look the part.
Ben Bullen
Yeah. You know, it's weird too, because now that you mentioned that, one thing that always bugged me in the world of rap and hip hop would be when more conservative folks would criticize an album cover that shows, maybe shows a guy with a bunch of chains, gold chains on his neck, and he's holding a couple guns and he's got a pile of cash. That's exactly what those portraits were like.
Noel Brown
Yeah. Oh, gosh, 100%, dude. Only it was more like a sword. A sword perhaps. Maybe a giant, a roast beast of some sort and piled up coins and perhaps a damsel of some variety.
Ben Bullen
And of course, yeah, those suits are part of the flex because.
Noel Brown
And often a very skinny looking waifish dog.
Ben Bullen
Yes. For some reason, I always like to picture the great masters of art back in the day saying, well, we can add one more thing in the corner. And I'm actually pretty good at drawing this specific type of dog.
Noel Brown
Oh, yeah, exactly. The wayfish little spindle thing of a dog. 100%.
Ben Bullen
So this is why it's such a flex, a full suit of armor to get in your heads. Ridiculous historians. The kind of armor you're thinking about right now, in the 1400s CE, this would have cost the equivalent of $3 million for one suit.
Noel Brown
What kind of materials are we talking about, Ben? Is this made of like solid gold?
Ben Bullen
So much stuff. The problem was manufacturing these things took so much time. You're essentially telling a team of very highly skilled laborers this is the rest of your year, so.
Noel Brown
Well, no, it's, it's. I mean, and I know I've been nerding out on watches lately, as have you been. At least we have been together. There are some companies that will produce like 50 watches a year because it is all hand machined, designed in house, like, and those are the ones that maybe retail might be $200,000, but there's so few of them that they instantly become worth like five times that on auction or in resale. Same deal. It's a matter of time commit. And how many of these things can you pump out these suits and who are you working for? Like, it's one thing to make stuff for the troops, for the infantry, but it's another thing to be working on these much more elaborate high end pieces. That would be for generals and top folks.
Ben Bullen
Yeah. Especially when you think of the ornate filigrees and all the details, which is the armor version of complications in a fancy watch.
Noel Brown
100%. You got, you got, you got different combinations of metals. You've got all these little touches that maybe absolutely are gold or various precious metals mixed in with the more durable stuff. Yeah. I'm excited to get into this, Ben.
Ben Bullen
Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, we know, like you were saying, no, most soldiers in real life, and indeed a lot of people who are technically knights, they had nothing near this stuff. They did the best with what they had. A lot of times, like pots and
Noel Brown
pans would just like little chain mail. Maybe a chest plate. Right.
Ben Bullen
They knew the Celts. Yeah. Maybe a chess plate. If they had a good lord who would supply them. Well, during the early Middle ages, a knight's armor was basically what you described earlier. It was a padded garment. They might have a simple metal helmet. They'd have a big wooden shield, and if they were lucky, it'd be reinforced with metal like you said. They did also use chainmail to. Because it let you move around still. And it was way better at stopping cutting weapons, but it wouldn't it wouldn't protect you against a blunt force object like a mace?
Noel Brown
No, no. Gosh, RIP that guy in Lord of the Seven Kingdoms. Night of the Seven Kingdoms rather. No spoilers, but boy oh boy, a thing happens.
Dr. Joy
This is Dr. Joy from therapy for Black Girls. If you could enjoy a spotless space without so much scrubbing, wouldn't you? Of course you would. Well, I've got you. Dawn Power Wash Dish Spray cuts through the mess and gets everything clean in half the time. We're talking about both the toughest messes in everyday dishes. Plus its work goes beyond the sink, like to clean counters, stoves, grills, and to remove stains on laundry. And it's really good at getting those hard to clean dishes. So basically, Dawn Power Wash cleans everything from dishes to grills, removing all the grease and grime and does it twice as fast. Not bad. You can find Dawn Power Wash Dish Spray at your favorite retailer. Dawn is a proud sponsor of the Elton John Impact Awards, honoring those who have helped shape a more inclusive and compassionate world with their artistry, advocacy and unwavering commitment to equality. And we like to take this opportunity to congratulate all of this year's deserving honorees. You won't want to miss the Elton John Impact Awards podcast, available on June 1st on the iHeartRadio app and everywhere podcasts are heard.
Karen and Georgia
I turned off news altogether.
Ben Bullen
I hate to say it, but I
Dr. Joy
don't trust much of anything.
Noel Brown
It's the rage bait.
Ben Bullen
It feels like it's trying to divide people. We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little. NBC NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.
Noel Brown
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Jennie Garth
it's Karen and Georgia from my favorite Murder.
Karen and Georgia
We cruised around LA in the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and dove into the fascinating life of actress and inventor Hedy Lamar.
Noel Brown
Want the full story?
Karen and Georgia
Take a listen. Hedi. She starts dating Howard Hughes, the aviation tycoon. Do you know a lot about him?
Noel Brown
I mean, I watch the Aviator, so
Karen and Georgia
I know Leonardo DiCaprio has allowed me
Noel Brown
to know about him.
Karen and Georgia
But incredible innovator, right? She says he's a, quote, very strange man. But they do get along really well.
Noel Brown
Give us examples.
Karen and Georgia
I know they do get along intellectually. And in fact, she helps him design a faster plane. She takes a look at what he's designed. It's got these square wings. And she's like, that doesn't make sense. And so she finds the fastest bird and the fastest fish and sketches out a drawing of like, what the two would look like as a plane. And that becomes the plane that we know today. And he calls her a genius. Check out our new episode spotlighting groundbreaking innovators like Hedy Lamarr and Billie Jean King.
Noel Brown
Presented by the Hyundai Ioniq 5.
Karen and Georgia
Goodbye.
Jennie Garth
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Ben Bullen
I love the point you made earlier about how we move to the high Middle ages around the 11th to 13th centuries and we see just like the Janissaries in the Ottoman Empire. Stay tuned for that episode. These folks who were the knightly class and they became more of a political class, right? That's where we See the more sophisticated designs. That's also where we see their horses getting kitted out too. I feel so bad for those guys. You've met horses, they're skittish.
Noel Brown
They do tend to spook. That's true. Which will cause them to kick. And you do not want to be on the receiving end of one of those.
Ben Bullen
Even in on a slow going farm. I'm worried when I run into horses on friendly terms just because they seem very stressed out as very fast prey.
Noel Brown
And they bite.
Ben Bullen
Yeah. And they get a little attitude, man.
Noel Brown
No. And I don't want, I don't want to sound like I'm like scared of horses. I think horses are gorgeous, majestic creatures, but they've got some peculiarities.
Ben Bullen
Yeah. Just like the humans. They evolved to specialize in certain things and their thing is being hyper aware and running quickly.
Noel Brown
So run away. Run away, run away way.
Ben Bullen
Yeah. Like the I, I picture a horse dad talking to his kid and giving him life advice. It's like, well, young horse boy, you're growing up. You're going to be a horseman, a stallion soon. So I'll tell you what your grandfather told me. Always run away.
Dr. Joy
Yeah.
Noel Brown
And if you're in a horror movie, never run up the stairs.
Ben Bullen
No.
Noel Brown
So it's just bad move.
Ben Bullen
So these, we're just exercising empathy here, folks. Because these horses who are already skittish are thrust in the heat of battle while essentially wearing an exoskeleton. Definitely not their idea of good day. And horse armor was a whole other expense. So these lords and these well to do knights are spending the equivalent of millions of dollars on two separate suits of armor. One for them, one for the horse. It's weird because the chest plate was always a thing, but it's not until like the 14th and 15th centuries that we see knights in full armor the way we would imagine them in the films. And that's because it took a while for breakthroughs in metallurgy. Why am I saying that wrong?
Noel Brown
Metallurgy.
Ben Bullen
Metallurgy. Yeah. You gotta hurry through it. Let's keep that part in.
Noel Brown
Let's do it.
Ben Bullen
Yeah. Metallurgy.
Noel Brown
It's rare thing to need to speak, though I guess in our profession it does come up from time to time.
Ben Bullen
Right, right.
Noel Brown
Metallurgy is one of these words that if you look at it, you can't say it right. Oh. And say it enough times, it loses all semblance of meaning or reason.
Ben Bullen
Semantic satiation.
Noel Brown
Yeah, Nonsense. Basically. Like English.
Ben Bullen
I mean most of English is nonsense. Okay, so this is the time in history, where the suits cover nearly every part of the body, they're custom fitted to you. You have to be rich to have one or have a very wealthy patron. A full suit of armor weighs 30 to 50 kilograms. That's 66 to 110 pounds in freedom units.
Noel Brown
Ben, can we talk. Stop it. Can we talk about the codpiece? I think we're bearing the lead here.
Ben Bullen
Yeah, all right. The codpiece. Tell us about it. Dole.
Noel Brown
Well, Ben, it's an armored or padded, if you weren't lucky enough, covering for the male groin on late medieval Renaissance armor and clothing. It was originally designed as, like a practical flap that would join the front part of the under hose, which I guess is sort of like. Yeah, kind of a. Not a jerkin. I'm gonna get in trouble. You know, the sort of long john under parts of the shift. There you go. Thank you. Remove thy shift. It protected, of course, the genitals. And often it was a bit of a step up from that and included a steel shaped plate on top of the padding. In the 15th and 16th centuries. By the late to mid-1500s, it became another thing that would be exaggerated.
Ben Bullen
It was fashion or status. It was so embellished, it sounded like muscles went crazy.
Noel Brown
Witness ye my codpiece in this majesty.
Ben Bullen
That's why there's so many paintings from back in the day of a guy that we knew was taken seriously but has a ridiculous fake dong. Basically a bulge.
Noel Brown
Yeah, it's like the spinal tap bit where he goes through the airport security and it keeps going off. And then finally, he removes the cucumber wrapped in tinfoil from his trousers.
Ben Bullen
Oh, also, shout out to all our European friends who learned about ranch. I don't like ranch unless it's homemade, but apparently the TSA has had to warn World cup visitors that you can't bring bottles of ranch on the plane.
Noel Brown
Well, you can if they're travel sized.
Ben Bullen
If they're travel sized. If you are at the point of ranch addiction, where you have to have a ranch flask, basically you got to be.
Noel Brown
I think you got to bring your own. I don't think they come like that in travel servings, but they should. Man, people love servings.
Ben Bullen
That's a great idea, Noel. We also know just travel sauces in
Noel Brown
general, Ben, you know.
Ben Bullen
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Empty out those little Walgreens or Duane Reade shampoo bottles.
Noel Brown
Well, because I told you how I learned my lesson the hard way and had like, you know, a hundred dollars worth of nice hot sauces confiscated.
Ben Bullen
That's Right.
Noel Brown
For being in my carry on. Won't make that mistake again. Travel ranch to jump in here real quick, I am actually pulling my friend Meredith, who's a weirdo. She brings her own tortilla chips with her and stuff like that. So I have her. Are you a ranch fan? And I'm gonna ask her a follow up of seeing if she brings ranch on. Well, you could broaden the question just to travel sauces.
Ben Bullen
Travel condiments.
Noel Brown
Oh, I. I'm certain she brings travel condiments, so. Amazing. We'll ask her what kind of receptacles are best for these things. Yeah, I will circle back.
Ben Bullen
All right, thank you. As we're waiting for the update, let's return to knights in shining armor. This full plate armor reaches its peak, its real era of fanciness in the 15th and 16th century. The full suit is referred to as a panoply at times. And it's a feature.
Noel Brown
All the things, basically.
Ben Bullen
Yeah, it's all the stuff together. And it's a feature at the very end of the middle ages, going into the Renaissance. It's also, it's popular image comes to us because of the ceremonies you were describing earlier there. Jousting. They would make special armor just for jousting because these were wealthy people with a lot of disposable income. And like you were saying, I think it's important that we acknowledge even the fanciest stuff was made from a series of materials. You had iron, you had leather, textiles, you had steel. And the plate armor is made of steel because it's very hard, but it's also flexible if you know how to work with it. The only reason they had steel plate armor is because some of the blacksmith boffins, the metallurgists, figured out how to quench and temper these steel plates so they wouldn't be brittle. Because if you don't make it the right way, then that mace that you could have been saved from is just going to crack your plate.
Noel Brown
And isn't tempering where you heat it up and bang it and then cool it down and then do that again and every time it kind of makes it stronger. Or am I making that up?
Ben Bullen
No, I think you're right. Yeah. That's the quenching.
Noel Brown
Right.
Ben Bullen
When you put it back in the
Noel Brown
water and then you what a satisfying it makes.
Ben Bullen
That's how you know the climactic battle is coming up in the third act of the film. Right.
Noel Brown
I always think of it's not really a night movie. I mean, I guess it's Sort of a modern night story. But the film Mandy, starring Nicolas Cage, there's a really badass scene where he forges his own incredibly sick, like, axe sword combo thing. But it also is, like, absurd. The timeline of it, like, it just shows him, like, he just busted out, like, in a, you know, an hour or even, like, in real time. Like, takes a half an hour. It would take a long time to make these kinds of things 100%.
Ben Bullen
And shout out to our pal Nicolas Cage, if you like superhero stuff and if you like investigative narratives, do check out spider Noir.
Noel Brown
You're liking spider Noir?
Ben Bullen
I'm liking it. I'm digging it, man.
Noel Brown
Yeah. I watched a bit of the first episode, and I liked it, too. And I heard some complaints about the black and white color combo thing. Not working for some people, but it worked pretty well for me. You could switch back and forth kind of. Neat.
Ben Bullen
Yeah. Yeah, Pretty neat. Right? And we know that knights also had Underoos, basically, as you alluded to. Under the metal armor, they're not naked. Right. They don't just have tighty whities or whatever the equivalent was. They have something called a gambis, made of quilted fabric. So it's kind of like those. Oh, what's the Japanese name for those blanket outfits that we both love? You know, the.
Noel Brown
You know, I'm picturing it, but I don't. I don't know the name. You mean, like. Oh, you mean like a Kigurumi?
Ben Bullen
Yes. Yeah.
Noel Brown
Kigurumi. Yes. Often shaped like a. Like a fun animal or cartoon character.
Ben Bullen
Yeah. So these guys had this kind of inner exoskeleton kigurumi thing.
Noel Brown
Kind of like the old prospectors Long John with the butt flap that we
Ben Bullen
often reference, like the red wool log dress. Right, right, right. Yeah. This was entirely to absorb the shock of a blow and also, you know, treat yourself, babe. This is gonna stop you from getting chafe marks from your metal armor.
Noel Brown
Well, sure. And it's also gonna soak up the sweat and all of that stuff. And it does play a role in the codpie situation we were talking about earlier, where if you needed to go poo poo or pee pee on the batt, you had to have access. So you would, like, remove that cod piece and then undo the flap on your. Whatever the thing is, and then you would go. Oftentimes, though, to go number two, you really did need, like, your caddy to help you out.
Ben Bullen
Your squire. Your squire.
Noel Brown
You know what I meant?
Ben Bullen
Yeah, no, it's the same thing. It's the caddy it's the squire. Like you had to have a squire in case you fell off your horse because this would weigh so much that you would need somebody to give you a little upsy daisy so you could get back on the horse.
Noel Brown
Well, and understandably, the caddies were not wearing that same level of mail and armor, so they would have been like little sitting ducks, little rodeo clowns out there.
Ben Bullen
So you've got your regular underwear, you've got your gambeson, which is gonna be stuffed with horsehair or straw and ridden with your sweat. So by the way, you're gonna smell terrible, but you're not quite ready for the plate yet. Wear something else over your gambeson. It's a tight fitting garment called an arming doublet or weirdly, a pour point, like pouring water point. And this stuff is important because it has the little loops or little eyelets that let you lace in the armor. So these guys got the armor sewn on that second layer of fabric so that it wouldn't fall off in battle. But sometimes it did.
Noel Brown
Sometimes it did.
Ben Bullen
Sometimes you're like, oh, no, my elbow is naked.
Noel Brown
And sometimes you had to poop yourself.
Ben Bullen
And sometimes you did have to poop yourself. This was.
Noel Brown
Sometimes you have to poop yourself. I mean, that's just true. That's just a life thing right there.
Ben Bullen
That just happens. And you know, this is way before the dawn of diaper technology, which was still in its infancy.
Noel Brown
So to circle back around, my friend Meredith, she is a fan of ranch, but she would not bring a travel size ranch with. With ranches available in the world. Okay, okay. She insists that she will always have a hot sauce on her and always be flying. She has in her work bag at all times.
Ben Bullen
All right. Yeah. Like Beyonce or Hillary Clinton.
Noel Brown
Like Beyonce or Hillary Clinton. Exactly.
Ben Bullen
Especially when they have a new project coming up. Right.
Noel Brown
I'm really looking forward to that Beyonce, Hillary collab.
Ben Bullen
I am too. Yeah, I am too. Especially, I mean, former Secretary of State Clinton is, I'm sure to drop a hot hook or nasty these 16 bars.
Dr. Joy
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Ben Bullen
I hate to say it, but I
Dr. Joy
don't trust much of anything.
Noel Brown
It's the rage bait.
Ben Bullen
It feels like it's trying to dive divide. People, we got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News, reporting for America.
Noel Brown
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Ben Bullen
it's Karen and Georgia from My Favorite Murder.
Karen and Georgia
We cruised around LA in the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and dove into the fascinating life of actress and inventor Hedy Lamarr.
Noel Brown
Want the full story?
Karen and Georgia
Take a listen. Hetty. She starts dating Howard Hughes, the aviation tycoon. Do you know a lot about him?
Noel Brown
I mean, I watch the Aviator, so
Karen and Georgia
I know everything Leonardo DiCaprio has allowed me to know about him. But incredible innovator, right? She says he's a, quote, very strange man. But they do get along really well.
Noel Brown
Give us examples.
Karen and Georgia
I know they do get along intellectually. And in fact, she helps him design a faster plane. She takes a look at what he's designed. It's got these square wings and she's like, that doesn't make sense. And so she finds the fastest bird and the fastest fish and sketches out a drawing of like what the two would look like as a plane. And that becomes the plane that we know today. And he calls her a genius. Check out our new episode, spotlighting groundbreaking innovators like Hedy and Lamarr and Billie Jean King.
Noel Brown
Presented by the Hyundai Ioniq 5.
Karen and Georgia
Goodbye.
Jennie Garth
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Ben Bullen
Okay, so we've got the armor, and we know that armor is continually innovating for the people who can afford it. These innovations, this is an arms race. So these innovations also lead to the decline of the shield for practical use. Like, you know, if we're out watching a joust, Max and Nolan, yours truly, we might see a knight who has a shield, right, to bounce the lance off from their opponent. But if you're in a battlefield, in an actual war, your plate armor is going to do most of what a shield would have done. So now a shield is just an encumbrance. It's an albatross. It's another heavy thing you have to carry.
Noel Brown
Well, that's right. And it is one of those leveling the playing field kind of arguments where it's like, you know, if everyone's wearing this heavy crap, you're sort of like, equally hampered and you're all just kind of like working in the same with the same drawbacks.
Ben Bullen
Yeah. Slowly clanking over, slowly clanking over.
Noel Brown
I'm gonna get you. I'm coming. I'm dancing for you. Okay, here I am. I'm gonna come towards you too.
Ben Bullen
And we'll meet before we, before we get to it. Yeah. Wait, wait. Gaboff. Let's everybody get a little bit of water.
Noel Brown
Hold on.
Ben Bullen
Gotta put, Gotta poop. I'll be back in like 20 minutes.
Noel Brown
But then, you know, you start to think the real innovation isn't how much can we load our guys down with this stuff, is how can we train them to not need it, you know what I mean? And be more nimble. And when we look at like Japanese armor, that stuff is clever. Cause it's like shoulders, it's just on the critical parts. And like, you know, they were just badass fighters who really knew how to engage in a way that maybe they didn't necessarily. They weren't just blunt instruments. A tank as you would call it in a video game. Right?
Ben Bullen
Yeah, yeah. I mean, also with the shields, if we look at the regular guys, the non rich guys who are fighting in these battles, we're looking at folks who have stuff like longbows. Right. Or have pikes. And those are both two handed weapons. So shields don't work for them.
Noel Brown
Dual wielding? Yeah, no, sorry, the opposite. You need two hands for the big halberd. Dual wielding would be two hands, weapons. And you know, there is technique for fighting that does involve sword and shield, but that's its own kind of very separate type of engagement. Right?
Ben Bullen
Yeah, yeah. And these street level infantry type guys, they can't rock shields at all unless there's literally a separate dude standing next to them with a big shield and holding it up in front of them. So yes, I mean, people did that. Right. But plate armor, then in this great tech race, it outpaces the shield and eventually armor itself is outpaced. That's how we get to our question toward the end here. Why don't we see people in full plate armor today? Like why isn't your average Johnny Law or Wells Fargo security guard? Why aren't they clanking around?
Noel Brown
Well, it's about material science really, you know, and it's about things like Kevlar, things like ballistic gelatin and various types of low weight comparatively, and high resistance, you know, to impact materials. Like the stuff that's in bulletproof vests, for example. And you know, this stuff continues to improve.
Ben Bullen
Yeah, like the. I have a Kevlar vest and I also have a ceramic plating thing. So you buy the vest and then you end up buying the plate Separately.
Noel Brown
That's right. I do hear them talk about that in like SWAT type shows.
Ben Bullen
Yeah. And it is. Is still expensive and it ain't exactly
Noel Brown
light, but it's not. Right. But comparatively, it is a dream come true. Comparatively to the big old plates.
Ben Bullen
Right, right.
Noel Brown
Metal plates.
Ben Bullen
And so it's cool because I love this point. We're getting to. At the height of its popularity, that full plate armor was symbolic on multiple levels. It represents so many astonishing technological breakthroughs. And if we're being honest, it represents a cartoonishly brutal and unfair class system. I keep thinking of how you would feel if you are a non noble soldier. Right. And you've got whatever kit you could MacGyver together. It's like you were driving around in a 90s Honda Civic and all of a sudden you hear a terrible horn, a great cheer from over the hill, and your gang of little Civics is getting run down by bloodthirsty Humvees. Or like you said, tanks. Like, they're outmatched.
Noel Brown
So, you know, the question we posed at the top, you know, did knights of yore really wear these big, massive suits of armor like you might see in a fancy drawing room in a detective movie? The answer is yeah, but not the way myths might suggest.
Ben Bullen
100%. Yeah. Because we have to remember that this was a pretty limited window of time as defensive measures like armor improved, offensive technology improved as well.
Noel Brown
Now we barely do battlefield fighting at all anymore, you know?
Ben Bullen
Yeah, yeah. Napoleonic warfare is thankfully gone. But despite all the time, blood research and money poured into suits of plate arbor, this tech gets outpaced by a new kid on the block. That's right. Gunpowder. And I didn't know this originally.
Noel Brown
I guess I should have. Should have gotten the gunpowder before I dropped Kevlar and bulletproof vests.
Ben Bullen
No, no, it's fine. We know that Kevlar would have been more effective than plate armor for sure. But I didn't know this at the beginning. Noel, before we started researching this armor at the time was actually good enough to block early musket balls, which were themselves a crapshoot with terrible aiming.
Noel Brown
Sure.
Ben Bullen
So you could get a little ping pong shot to your chest and keep going because it would take the guy firing at you so long to reload their firearm.
Noel Brown
Well, yeah, we've also seen examples of like, you know, as a twist in the plot of some sort of murder mystery type show. A bullet being stopped by a cigarette case perhaps in the front pockets.
Ben Bullen
I always love that scene. You know, like there's that iconic scene where Somebody looks to be dead, but then they pull out, as you're saying, the breast pocket, and it's like a Bible.
Noel Brown
I was saved. Yes. Oh, yes. Even better.
Ben Bullen
Or in this case, weirdly enough, a lottery ticket. I don't know where that came from.
Noel Brown
Okay, we'll take all the luck we can get. This is super fun, man. And, you know, I think we're. I'm not like a gun person per se, but I am fascinated by these YouTube videos of people showing what kind of materials can block what caliber of bullets and stuff like that. And you do get into, as they escalate the materials into, like, stuff like ballistic gel and all of these modern, you know, gunpowder and bulletproof materials.
Ben Bullen
Yeah, like the spider silk experiments. That's pretty nuts.
Noel Brown
I don't know about that one.
Ben Bullen
There's been work into making armor based off spider silk, which is like, we always see it in what, you know, a tiny. A web of tiny strands. But it turns out if you knit it together, which is very time consuming, then it actually makes a pretty good material for armor.
Noel Brown
Almost like carbon fiber.
Ben Bullen
Yeah.
Noel Brown
Kind of stuff.
Ben Bullen
I'd have to look into it because I don't know if it's cost effective yet. But we do know plate armor became less cost effective or even practical as firearms evolved. Because, look, the reality is if you're wearing a bulletproof vest, even now, a modern one, and you get shot, shot, you're still going to have a screwed up day.
Noel Brown
It's going to hurt your ass over, too.
Ben Bullen
You'll have nasty bruising, but the advantage is you'll be alive. The problem with plate armor is if these folks got shot and the armor got mangled, you would injure the guy even more by trying to get it off him. Like, how are you going to get his arm out of there? So as we said, said, that's the reason people aren't wearing plate armor right now. Outside of cosplay and historical celebrations, body armor is still around today. It's more expensive than we'd like. But this is a great setup for a future episode we have about another mythical fighter, the Berserker.
Noel Brown
Oh, yes, Berserker.
Ben Bullen
Yeah.
Noel Brown
Remember that song from Clerks?
Ben Bullen
That's right. That's right. Yeah.
Noel Brown
It's got some pretty, pretty blue language in it. So I'm just gonna go with I
Ben Bullen
had Big, big thanks to our super.
Noel Brown
Were they hopped up on goofballs? Maybe.
Ben Bullen
Maybe. Big, big. We're gonna find out. Big, big thanks to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. I've been our research associate for this. Big thanks to Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Queen, who I miss a little bit, though I'm never gonna tell him that.
Noel Brown
Doesn't he. Doesn't he owe us an appearance, a prestidigitation, a summoning?
Ben Bullen
Yes, he does. He's also a fan of stage magic.
Noel Brown
That's true. Who isn't? I love stage.
Ben Bullen
I'm not a fan of it.
Noel Brown
Well, I am.
Ben Bullen
I love this stuff.
Noel Brown
You know why?
Ben Bullen
To each their own.
Noel Brown
To each their own indeed. And jolly good time today, Ben. Enjoyed this one. Thanks for the for the research and we'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This is George Severis and Sam Taggart from Stratiolab. Let's be real. Home comes with a lot of odors. Cooking, pets, everyday life. That's where Febreze comes in. Febreze helps fight household odors and leaves
Ben Bullen
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Noel Brown
Febreze. Freshness that fits your life, your space, your style.
Ben Bullen
Febreze is a proud sponsor of the Elton John Impact Awards, honoring those who have helped shape a more inclusive and
Noel Brown
compassionate world with their artistry, advocacy, and unwavering commitment to equality. You won't want to miss the Elton John Impact Awards podcast, available on June 1st on the iHeartRadio app. And everywhere podcasts are heard.
Ben Bullen
Hi, it's Karen and Georgia from My favorite Murder.
Karen and Georgia
We cruised around LA in the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and dove into the fascinating life of actress and inventor Hedy Lamar.
Noel Brown
Want the full story?
Karen and Georgia
Take a listen. She starts dating Howard Hughes and in fact she helps him design a faster plane. So she finds the fastest bird and the fastest fish and sketches out a drawing of what the two would look like as a plane. And that becomes the plane that we know today. And he calls her a giant genius. Check out our new episode spotlighting groundbreaking innovators like Hedy Lamar and Billie Jean King.
Noel Brown
Presented by the Hyundai Ioniq 5.
Karen and Georgia
Goodbye.
Noel Brown
If you're alignment in charge of keeping the lights on, Grainger understands that you go to great lengths and sometimes heights to ensure the power is always flowing. Which is why you can count on Grainger for professional grade products and next day delivery. So you have everything you need to get the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
Ben Bullen
When Kohler, global design leader in luxurious kitchen and bath products, asked me to be their ambassador for timeless, elegant, durable cast iron, I said, I'm in. Soon after, I was in their Kohler Wisconsin foundation foundry watching molten iron, poured, enamel applied by hand, and the beautiful finished pieces ready to ship. Since 1883, Kohler cast iron has been crafted by incredible artisans, and seeing it firsthand gave me a whole new appreciation for their craftsmanship. Now I'm proud to lend my staff of approval to my favorite Kohler cast iron products for their durability, beauty and enduring style. Shop my curated pics@kohler.com as the Kohler Cast Iron Ambassador, I say long live Cast Iron.
Jennie Garth
This is Jenny Garth from I Choose Me With Jenny Garth, History is full of mysteries like how people ever survive before modern laundry detergent. Luckily, Tides here with boosted stain fighting for cleaner, whiter, brighter and fresher laundry versus Tide. Simple. No wonder it was America's number one detergent in sales last year. If it's gotta be clean, it's got to be Tide. Tide is a proud sponsor of the Elton John Impact Awards, honoring those who have helped shape a more inclusive and compassionate world with their artistry, advocacy and unwavering commitment to equality. You won't want to miss the Elton John Impact Awards podcast available on June 1st on the iHeartRadio app and everywhere podcasts are heard, this is an iHeart podcast.
Dr. Joy
Guaranteed human.
Podcast: Ridiculous History (iHeartPodcasts)
Hosts: Ben Bowlin & Noel Brown
Date: June 23, 2026
This lively, humorous episode investigates the reality behind the iconic image of the knight in shining armor: Did historical knights truly don those elaborate, head-to-toe metal suits we see in movies and TV? Ben and Noel separate centuries of “glamorous” legend from actual historical fact, exploring the evolution, practicality, cost, and societal implications of armor through history—all while peppering the discussion with pop-culture nods, Renaissance Fair turkey legs, codpiece jokes, and relatable modern analogies.
Human “Squishiness”
Universal Need, Diverse Solutions
Myth vs. Reality
Armor as a Status Symbol
Cost, Craftsmanship, and Materials
Practical Underlayers
Needing Help: Squires as Medieval ‘Caddies’
Arms Race: Offense vs. Defense
Modern Body Armor
The Demise of the Shield
Did knights really wear suits of armor? Yes, but far fewer and less often than pop culture suggests — and only for a privileged elite. Most "knights" (and certainly most soldiers) wore much simpler, cheaper, or improvised protection. The legendary full-plate suits were rarities, prohibitively expensive, and mostly reserved for brief historical moments, ceremonial flexing, or the fortunate few on medieval battlefields right before gunpowder made them obsolete.
Noel: "The answer is yeah, but not the way the myths might suggest." (43:58)
This episode busts the “knight in shining armor” myth, illustrating how technological progress—and social hierarchy—shaped who wore what, for what purpose, and for how long in the march of military history.
For future episodes: The hosts hint at diving into berserkers and other legendary warriors, so stay tuned!
[End of Summary]