Apple Versus Apple: The Beatles' Decades-long IP War

Summary

Ridiculous History: Episode Summary Episode: Apple Versus Apple: The Beatles' Decades-long IP War Release Date: March 13, 2025

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Introduction: A Battle of Apples

In this riveting episode of Ridiculous History, hosts Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown delve into one of the most intriguing intellectual property battles in modern history: the decades-long dispute between the Beatles' Apple Corps and Apple Inc. This clash not only highlights the complexities of trademark law but also underscores the evolving relationship between technology and the music industry.

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Origins of Apple Corps: The Beatles' Vision

The story begins in January 1968, when the Beatles—John, Paul, George, and Ringo—founded Apple Corps in London. As Noel Brown explains, "Apple Corps was more than just a record label; it was a holding company aimed at diversifying into film, retail, and the development of other artists" (02:09). This move allowed the Beatles to gain greater control over their finances and artistic output, marking a significant shift in how musicians managed their business interests.

Notable Quote:

"Apple Corps was the venue through which some of the biggest Beatles albums ever get released." — Noel Brown (02:53)

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The Birth of Apple Inc.: Technology Meets Music

Fast forward to 1976, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak establish Apple Computer Inc. in Cupertino, California. Initially focused on personal computers, Apple's sleek design and innovative technology quickly set it apart in the burgeoning tech industry. However, unbeknownst to the Beatles, a potential conflict was on the horizon due to the shared use of the "Apple" name.

Notable Quote:

"Apple Computer Incorporated was founded in 1976, several years after the green apple logo of 1969." — Ben Bullen (10:39)

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Trademark Conflict Begins: A Clash of Logos and Territories

The foundation of Apple Corps and Apple Inc. set the stage for a trademark dispute over the use of the "Apple" name and logo. In 1969, Apple Corps introduced their iconic green apple logo, inspired by René Magritte's surrealist artwork. Meanwhile, Apple Inc. developed a distinct, stylized apple logo featuring a bite out of it—a nod to both the word "byte" in computing and the classic motif.

Notable Quote:

"The Fab Four called this company Apple Corps. Get it." — Ben Bullen (05:30)

The similarity in branding naturally led to confusion and strained relations, especially as Apple Inc. expanded its technological footprint.

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Legal Battles: Decades of Litigation

The first major legal confrontation arose in 1978 when Apple Corps sued Apple Computer for trademark infringement. At this point, Apple Corps was primarily focused on music, making the dispute somewhat straightforward. However, as Apple Inc. grew and began integrating more multimedia capabilities into their computers, the lines blurred.

Notable Quote:

"Apple Computers are not purposely out to drink your proverbial milkshake. The primary function of the Macintosh is to process data." — Ben Bullen (34:44)

Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, the two companies engaged in a series of lawsuits, each accusing the other of encroaching on their respective markets. The crux of the argument centered on whether Apple Inc.'s technological advancements, particularly in music-related software and hardware, infringed upon Apple Corps' musical domain.

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Sosumi: A Cheeky Legal Nod

One of the most memorable moments in this saga is the creation of the "Sosumi" alert sound in Apple's operating systems. As Noel Brown elaborates, the name "Sosumi" was a playful jab at Apple Corps, sounding like "sue me"—a nod to the ongoing legal tensions.

Notable Quote:

"Sosumi is still a system alert sound on Macs today. It's buried in there like a little nod to their past." — Noel Brown (39:25)

This subtle act of rebellion showcased the lighter side of the feud, blending humor with legal defiance.

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Settlements and Final Agreements

After years of courtroom battles, the feud saw a temporary truce in 2007 with a confidential settlement. While the exact terms remain undisclosed, industry insiders suggest that Apple Inc. effectively gained control over the "Apple" trademark, allowing them to dominate both technological and digital music spaces without further interference from Apple Corps.

Notable Quote:

"They pay off Apple Core and let them know they won't sell physical music materials anymore." — Noel Brown (43:31)

This settlement marks the end of the active litigation phase but leaves lasting implications for trademark law and brand management.

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Cultural and Industry Impact

The Apple Corps vs. Apple Inc. dispute serves as a landmark case in intellectual property law, demonstrating the challenges that arise when brands with similar identities operate in overlapping markets. It highlights the importance of clear trademark agreements and the potential for creative solutions, like the "Sosumi" alert, to diffuse tensions.

Moreover, this saga reflects the broader evolution of the music and technology industries. As Apple Inc. pioneered digital music distribution through platforms like iTunes and devices like the iPod, the integration of technology into music became inevitable, blurring the once-clear boundaries between the two fields.

Notable Quote:

"The question of where one company's territory ends and another's begins is a perpetual challenge." — Noel Brown (44:41)

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Conclusion: Lessons from the Apple Clash

The decades-long IP war between Apple Corps and Apple Inc. underscores the intricate dance between innovation, branding, and legal frameworks. As technology continues to advance and industries intersect in unforeseen ways, the lessons from this battle remain ever-relevant.

Hosts Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown adeptly navigate the complexities of this story, offering listeners a comprehensive look at how two "Apples" once clashed and how their legacy continues to influence both the music and tech worlds.

Notable Quote:

"It's a story that is only going to grow more important in precedent as time goes on." — Ben Bullen (45:23)

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Final Thoughts

Apple Versus Apple: The Beatles' Decades-long IP War is a fascinating exploration of how iconic brands can collide, the importance of intellectual property, and the unforeseen consequences of branding in overlapping markets. For anyone interested in the intersection of music, technology, and law, this episode offers invaluable insights wrapped in the engaging storytelling that Ridiculous History is known for.

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For more episodes, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform.

Transcript

[Ben Bullen]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the band, the myth, the legend, our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. I exist still.

[Noel Brown]

He is the walrus.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

I am the eggman.

[Ben Bullen]

I want to hold your hand, bro. There is none other than Eleanor Rigby. There is none other than my. My colleague, my compatriot, my brother from another mother, Mr. Noel Brown. Noel, how you doing?

[Noel Brown]

I'm doing okay, man. How about yourself?

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, well, I'm still going by Ben Bullen. Good to know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Be awkward if I called you something else like Steve.

[Ben Bullen]

Well, Interpol hasn't caught me yet. You can, you can. In the meantime, check us out. I'm hanging out with our pals Jack and Miles over on Daily Zeitgeist. Hopefully they'll return to our show as well in the near future for some historical flexes. So if you're a fan of them, please bully them into coming on our show. Just. Just with no. No preface, no nice. How you doings? Just. Just try to coerce them into hanging out with us. And speaking of coercion. Oh, my gosh. We teased this earlier. We teased this for a few weeks while we were on the road as well. We have a series of episodes coming out about apples. The history of Apple John. The history of Apples, the. The produce, the story of Johnny Appleseed. And Noel, there you and I were talking about as well as with our buddy Jordan Runto. That really stood out to you. And I think it's a peak ridiculous history story that needs to be told.

[Noel Brown]

Well, it came from the recent series we did on intellectual property, copyright, trademark and all of that. And it turns out that one of the biggest trademark battles of our time was between two apples, the Computer Variety and the Music Variety, a record label founded in London in January. January of 1968 by the Beatles, John, Paul, that scamp, Ringo and George. Don't forget about George. All things Must Pass is a banger. Picture this. You're halfway through a DIY car fix, tools scattered everywhere, and boom. You realize you're missing a part.

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[Ben Bullen]

This is Nikki Glaser from the Nikki Glaser Podcast.

[Noel Brown]

On a more serious note, I'm still.

[Ben Bullen]

Thinking about that commercial with Tom Brady and Snoop Dogg hating on each other.

[Noel Brown]

Because when you listen to the reasons.

[Ben Bullen]

For hating someone or something, you realize just how stupid they really are. There is too much hate in this country and it's gotta stop. So join us at iHeart in standing up to it.

[Noel Brown]

If you see hate, speak up, call.

[Ben Bullen]

It out and you can learn more by following OTs upwithhate.

[Noel Brown]

They wanted to replace their previous company, Beatles Limited and get more of their finances under their own control of their catalog. But but also kind of branch out into film, into retail, into a development of other artists. You may well have some records that are on Apple, records that are not the Beatles. I think James Taylor released some stuff on Apple Records, John Lennon's good buddy Harry Nilsson, and of course, all things Must pass. The record I mentioned before, the George Harrison double LP is also released on.

[Ben Bullen]

Apple and they called this is one of my favorite parts about the company, the Beatles. The Fab Four called this company Apple Corps. Get it.

[Noel Brown]

Apple Corps.

[Ben Bullen]

Get it. I love it. Hashtag very left behind.

[Noel Brown]

No, it's good.

[Ben Bullen]

And they were like you said, if we cast our memories Back to early 1967, the Beatles are a worldwide phenomena at this point. They've got all these Beatlemania. Yeah. They've got all these hit records. They're getting songwriting royalties left and right in a way that the music industry hasn't really encountered on this level. But on the other side, they were still haunted by the bad deals they had made earlier in their collective career.

[Noel Brown]

Well, it's also one of those music industry history moments where it was very hard for bands to be able to exert this level of control. And only because of how incredibly successful the Beatles were were they able to do this. Like, another example might be Prince choosing not to renew his record with a label and recording and releasing and consequently owning all of his own master recordings from that point forward when he severed ties, you know, with that label.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. And at this point, we already see the money becoming a huge part of the conversation. Arguably, you could say the money becomes another member of the Beatles. They have multiple accountants, they have a staff of accountants. And in 1967, they go to our pals, the Beatles, and they say, look, we're gonna have to do a little bit of financial parkour just to get everything right with the tax man.

[Noel Brown]

So sheltering, I think, is the term, right?

[Ben Bullen]

Yes. Give me shelter. Different band, same band, but great reference, big time. They tell the band that they need to shelter 2 million pounds sterling. And the best way to do this is to invest in a business. Can we.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, I was hoping we were going to do some inflation calculation. All right, we must.

[Ben Bullen]

Let's get that. Boop.

[Noel Brown]

We got some boops. Oh, that was a nice harmony of boops. In today's pounds, I guess it would be euros. Right. This would be 50 million pounds sterling in today's money. But we didn't do the euro calculation.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, because we support Brexit. Kidding, kidding.

[Noel Brown]

What's the deal with that? How's that going, Phil?

[Ben Bullen]

In eu, they never. They. England. England was the one country that didn't switch. Right.

[Noel Brown]

You're so right. You're so right. My mistake. Still wondering how Brexit's going, though.

[Ben Bullen]

We heard tell check in, there are some regrets, but none of those regrets are coming from Russia, which absolutely loved Brexit and anything that can break up the eu.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, yeah. Hoping for something similar back here in the States.

[Ben Bullen]

They sure are hoping. Oh, my gosh, check out our show. Stuff they don't want you to know. Also, okay, the big tent asset of this massive Apple Corps enterprise is, as you mentioned, Noel, a recorded label called Apple Records. And Apple Records is the venue through which some of the biggest Beatles albums ever get released.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. I mean, their earlier stuff, Rubber Soul, Revolver, help all their musical film work, and their early singles like I Want to hold you'd Hand and things like that, that I think weren't always released on full length albums. They were kind of singles back then that would still have been under the control of Capitol Records or I think Parlophone, I think was the English imprint of Capital. Correct me if I'm wrong, ridiculous historians. But that was out of their hands. But they could start fresh. Some of their most important and kind of boundary pushing work was released by Apple and that includes Yellow Submarine, Abbey Road and Let It Be.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes. Which are absolute bangers, by the way. For the record, for the record, whatever, we'll keep it.

[Noel Brown]

You can do it.

[Ben Bullen]

You can do it. So they come up with this amazing pun. Apple Corps, they release this green Apple logo as their first trademark. By this point, it's 1969 and this logo becomes iconic. People recognize it and some of the people who recognize it, well, they say, we also have our own idea about Apple and we're mad at you guys.

[Noel Brown]

Well, I mean, today I think people associate Apple and the Apple logo or an image of an Apple with a pretty significantly massive computer company.

[Ben Bullen]

Technology company Apple, which wasn't around in the 60s.

[Noel Brown]

Well, it wasn't around in the 60s. It was a startup, more or less, you know, by Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak in their garage in Silicon Valley there in San Francisco. But today, definitely much more of a household name, especially when associated with that particular fruit here in the United States and really in the rest of the world. Maybe there's some folks in Britain that still think about Apple Records and Apple Core, but probably not to the degree that Apple Computers, you know, kind of took over the mantle for that brand.

[Ben Bullen]

And get this, I love this point. Get this, folks. If you are the average person looking up Apple Core, you're probably looking it up on your iPhone.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Oh, a million percent. I mean, that's the level of ubiquity that Apple Computers established. Just an absolute cultural zeitgeist owner from the moment as far back as the ipod. I mean, coining terms. Absolutely revolutionizing the handheld computing device market. Before it was like BlackBerry was kind of the only game in town. And then the iPhone came in and just blew the lid off of all of it. Today they are a $3 trillion company. That was, as I said in those halcyon days, salad days. I gu of the origination of the company when Steve and Steve were working in their garage in 1976. But 1974, I believe is when Let It Be came out. So at this point, Apple Records and Apple Core still very much the only game in town.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. And Apple Computer Incorporated, as you said, it gets founded in 1976. So this is several years after. This is like seven years after the green apple logo of 1969. And it's pretty much a decade after the existence of Apple Corp is created by the Beatles.

[Noel Brown]

That logo by the way, was inspired by a super famous painting by the surrealist Belgian artist rene Magritte. Paul McCartney had seen this in a gallery show in London and got the inspiration for designing that logo. You know the one, it's like the dude's head that's got the apple kind of floating in space.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a really good painting.

[Noel Brown]

It's wonderful. Magritte's fantastic.

[Ben Bullen]

And unbeknownst to our British musicians here, Double Steves as we're going to call them, when they started their business, they created, as you said, the concept of Apple in Steve Jobs's garage. And their first logo for Apple, the computer company was sort of a pretty simple sketch of Isaac Newton from earlier sitting under an apple tree. And then later they replaced it with what we acknowledge as the old school logo, the 1977 rainbow striped apple. Some cheeky monkey took a bite out of it.

[Noel Brown]

Your little devil. Where'd he go? Let me add him.

[Ben Bullen]

Where is he? Right, so they all love puns, right? This is a fun fact you found, courtesy of our friends over at Trademarkia. Shout out to Amrusha Chati.

[Noel Brown]

100% apple core. As we mentioned, the pun being core of the apple. But when it comes to the Apple computers and their logo, that byte that's taken out, you know, B I T E or is it B Y T E like a unit of computer data and even Apple core though, right? A core is a part of a processor, of a computer processor.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh nice.

[Noel Brown]

And I'm not sure if that terminology was used back in those early days, but today if you have a really powerful processor, it's referred to to as having multiple cores which are like the processing, you know, portions of those circuits.

[Ben Bullen]

I would say, I would guess that core was used back in those days because it's kind of like similar to.

[Noel Brown]

How you would describe like a power.

[Ben Bullen]

Plant or something like that.

[Noel Brown]

That's also true. Oh, a million percent. Yes. I'm guessing that that was, would have been around the whole time. That's exactly right. It's where the power lies.

[Ben Bullen]

Sounds like it's time for Max with the facts.

[Noel Brown]

What? Who's that sneaking in the phone? It's Max and he full of knowledge. Just for you right now. Here he comes back with the facts there it was.

[Ben Bullen]

Feels so good to be back.

[Noel Brown]

It really does, man.

[Ben Bullen]

While we're walking out the puns, let's also point out some more. Wordplay Corp. C O R P S, of course, pronounced corps. Also denotes a large military movement. Shout out to camel corps. Oh, yeah, corporation.

[Noel Brown]

So of course.

[Ben Bullen]

So we're just saying it's well written.

[Noel Brown]

It is, absolutely. And in a press conference that the Beatles held in 1968 to announce the founding of this organization, John Lennon described Apple Corps as being a company we're setting up involving records is what he would have said. Films and electronics. So there's definitely already some overlap in what Apple Corps is setting out to do. We're going to get into whether or not they actually did it or not and what the Steves are coming up with that technology, you know, for them, electronics and technology, I mean, they're very much hand in hand.

[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Ben Bullen]

And unfortunately, as we know, and as history will later prove, the Beatles, despite being a tremendously fantastic musical force together, they had a lot of clashes of personality. And fame brought with it some complications, some arguments, some loggerheads, some. I think people give Yoko Ono a hard time. Right? Right. They had some internal issues. And as a result of this, the tensions in the group, it didn't help the mission of Apple Corps.

[Noel Brown]

They should have spent more time with the Maharish yogi to kind of mellow out and stop being so tense at each other, y'all. Yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, maybe. Right? There's also the fact, and we say this with great affection, we're obviously, all of us are big Beatles fans here. There's also the fact that these guys are musicians. They're not execs they're not C suite types. They haven't gone to Harvard Business School or whatever. They don't know how to run a company like this.

[Noel Brown]

But they do know music. And like I said, some really great artists were released under the Apple Records moniker. But they also were attempting to kind of forge into that electronics or kind of technology sector with a dude they knew who was one of their engineers at Apple Studios, a guy by the name of Magic, Alex Martis.

[Ben Bullen]

Great name.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. I mean, the magic is in quotes. But he had gone to great lengths renovating the Beatles studios, making it up to the current standards of recording technology, which was a very expensive job costing in the neighborhood of 1.5 million pounds. But that studio went under as well. And as we will find out, Martis also had some other kind of huckstery tricks up his sleeve.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. It turns out that you get in a tricky situation when you hire people based on your friendship versus, you know, their proven skills. Right. It's a big trust fall. They start something called the Apple Boutique Shop. This does not work well. It closes within just a year of launching. And they also had, like you said, Noel, they had Apple films which never really got off the ground floor. Apple Electronics unfortunately had to shut down because Martis practiced a different sort of magic. I'm being very diplomatic there.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, the magic of bull, right?

[Ben Bullen]

Yes. This is where we thank Tim Kaufman over at. @faroutmagazine.co.uk who brings.

[Noel Brown]

Really cool. I just started following them on all the platforms and it's just a really great publication, but they have an article called, let's see, Alex Martis, the engineer who promised the Beatles the world. And this guy had some kind of. He fancied himself a bit of an inventor and had all these ideas that never really made it past the prototype stage. And that includes a guitar that he built for John Lennon that when looked at from a certain angle, as described by this far out article, resembles in the way of a children's toy. And, you know, he had other little, you know, pie in the sky invention ideas, none of which ever made it to production.

[Ben Bullen]

Right. Like he. He impressed John Lennon with something he called the nothing box, which was a little plastic box with these lights that would randomly blink. And then he told the Beatles he could build a 72 track tape machine. It's really weird, which, if you're a.

[Noel Brown]

Music nerd, you know that like the Beatles early stuff was done on four track and they had to innovate in tons of ways by like bounce it's called bouncing, where you record multiple things and squish it down on one track and then record those again to another. It's like moving things around and doubling them up to make room for more empty tracks. But then you had eight track and then 24 track is what the kind of standard of the day is because there's a finite amount of space on 2 inch magnetic tape. And so promising something like 72 tracks maybe. It's possible, but you would also be inherently cutting down on the fidelity of each individual track track because of the fact there's only so much data that can be written to a piece of magnetic tape like that. So what he was promising wasn't possible even by today's standards, Right?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, it was a little bit of a pie in the sky. Let me sell you a bridge situation. We know that eventually he ended up losing Apple, the Beatles company, something like £300,000 sterling in recent numbers. That would be over. Yeah, that'd be over £6.5 million. It was not a good look, dude. Magic Martis, he's so interesting. He later gets into selling bulletproof vehicles to dictators. It's wild.

[Noel Brown]

100%. Yeah. After he parts ways with the Beatles because they kick him to the curb when they finally realize that he's a con artist. So in 1978, the Apple Corps, which is the holding company for the Beatles and also what they've got their record label wrapped up into, filed a lawsuit against. This is the inciting incident of our story against the then up and coming Apple computers for, wait for it, trademark infringement. The trademark in question being that image of an apple, though very stylistically different. Like, you know, the Apple that the Beatles use is photorealistic, you know, like a green apple. And the one that Apple used was more stylized, kind of a two dimensional, you know, sort of sort of shape.

[Ben Bullen]

Based design with a cheeky little bite. I love the cheeky little bite.

[Noel Brown]

Where'd he go? That little.

[Ben Bullen]

Where is that scamp? So this is a serious high stakes legal disagreement. There is so much money on the line, not even counting celebrity and the fact that on one side of this argument, we have some of the most powerful musicians in the world. The thing is, they weren't operating in the same businesses. Not really.

[Noel Brown]

Well, although Apple Corp. Did set out to have a technology wing, as we know, Magic Martis screwed that all to heck. And so that wasn't really a thing anymore. None of the business was viable. They were not operating in that space. The only remaining viable part of that business was the music being released on Apple Records. So that is kind of becomes the rub here, right? Because the question then becomes what is technology? You know, what is music technology? And where does the crossover between these two business exist? And that's the question that gets litigated for quite a while.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. It goes all the way up to 1981. And they eventually these two giants, right? Because Apple computers is growing year over year at this point. They eventually settle and they say, look, look, let's demarcate everybody's respective turf. You are Apple core, you do Apple Records. We promise you guys, we super duper pinky swear that we are not going to enter into the music business so long as you guys promise us super duper pinky style that you are not going to enter into the computers. Like don't try to build computers, we won't make a record label. Good game.

[Noel Brown]

Exactly. You know, as long as you're not putting stuff out into the music space, then we are not going to put stuff out into the technology space. Never the twain shall meet. At this point it seems relatively cut and dry. You know, we don't make records, you don't make computers. But the problem is that within the idea of making computers, what we know is where the real money is is in the software. And at as technology improves, more things become possible within the operating system in the software of an Apple Macintosh computer. And that eventually does start to dip its toes into the music space. Even before things like itunes and the ipod. What happens first?

[Ben Bullen]

That's right, that's right. I love this. Can we get a sound cue? Can we introduce you to the musical Instrument Digital Interface, AKA street name the midi.

[Noel Brown]

MIDI is so fascinating because it was a computer standard or really just a electronic standard. It's a particular type of jack connection that has a certain number of pins that can pass what's called CC information or control change information through from a computer like a Apple Macintosh or a sequencer, which might be a standalone device that can send information through a standardized connection into hardware synthesizers of the time. And you can literally program those synthesizers to do things from a remote place, you know, from a remote piece of equipment. And you can have multiple of them connected. And the thing that I think is so neat about MIDI is that to this day it hasn't changed. Like you still buy interfaces, recording interfaces or MIDI controllers is what they call them. They literally call them that. That have the same exact connection that can connect up to a synthesizer that came out in the 80s.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, well said. And this is instantly I Think a lot of us playing along at home felt that pull of nostalgia. MIDI stuff is just so cool. I love hearing it. It's fun. I also like a lot of hip hop that leverages midi, just to be honest. It's a banger. But you're right. You're absolutely right, Noel. The overlap there, the implacable pace of technological innovation, it led into, again, some overstepping of turf, at least in the opinion of the Beatles Apple Corps. So they come back post midi, and as this technology is spreading throughout the world and throughout Apple computers, and the Beatles crew says, look, the sound capabilities of the Macintosh, just the fact that the noises it can make, they are a breach of our earlier agreement. We can't believe you guys. Pinky promised. And then ditto this way. So fast forward, It's. This is 1991 at this point. And Noel, as you pointed out, the case goes all the way to the High Court in London and they're.

[Noel Brown]

It's like the Supreme Court of that part of the world, correct?

[Ben Bullen]

More or less, yeah. Yeah. And they're. They're grappling with this question that we. That. That we sort of played with just a few seconds ago. They have to ask if this really is a violation of that 1981 settlement.

[Noel Brown]

Settlement 100%. Because of the fact that now Apple Computers was doing stuff in their operating system, in their software, that made these computers capable of interfacing with musical devices, musical equipment. Technically, they were in violation of, I don't know, some aspect of that agreement. It's really weird and convoluted because they certainly weren't putting out music and selling music products. So it's really a tough thing. And I understand why it made it so far in the court systems.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Yeah. Because it really. It really comes down to some. I hate to say it, but a little bit of hair splitting and a little bit of philosophy and perspective. Picture this. You're in the garage, hands covered in grease, just finished tuning up your engine with a part you found on ebay. And you realize, you know what? I could also use new brakes.

[Noel Brown]

So where do you go next? Back to ebay.

[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

Especially when things are guaranteed to fix.

[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

Yep.

[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

I mean, I always thought I needed a designer to come to my home, but scheduling's always a nightmare. Notwithblinds.com, we're on your schedule. And there's no haggling pressure or hidden fees either. Hmm. I just might have to do more. Whatever you need. How about you tell me what you had in mind? Okay, then. So the first room we're looking at is for guests coming over. And I'm sitting thinking of something.

[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

Ultimately, the court says, all right, Apple computers are not purposely out to drink your proverbial milkshake. The primary function of the Macintosh is to process data. Now, can people use that to make music? Sure, but they can also use it however they wish as the end user. Apple is not making people create any.

[Noel Brown]

Kind of music, and they're not even really marketing it in that way. You know, I mean, it's just the thing about technology that's so interesting is it is inevitably going to evolve to do things that other things have held the market on. You know what I mean? Like, even with, like, AI now, so much of the debate around that technology, this is not that different. It's just a different time where, like, when synthesizers first came out, people were afraid they were gonna take the jobs of musicians, you know, because it was like a robo orchest. That didn't end up being the case. But a similar thing debate is happening around AI about the jobs that it could displace. But when you start to kind of like, try to nail down what is a computer capable of, what does it do? That question becomes kind of moot because it can do all kinds of things. It can do whatever you program it to do. It's not inherently one thing. It can be many things to many people and professions and sectors.

[Ben Bullen]

Right, right. It's sort of like, let's say you sell Swiss army knives, multifunctional tools, Leatherman for inst. Right? And then somebody else comes to you and says, hey, we agreed that a scissors company comes to you and says, we agreed that we're the ones in charge of scissors. And then you have to say, well, people can cut things with a knife. You know what I mean? Like, how is that. How is that on? Like, how is that my responsibility? You know, this. This does seem like a stretch.

[Noel Brown]

Well, exactly. And that's why you can't copyright or trademark a technology as ancient and. And basic as a knife or a screw. Right? It is a tool. You can have different types of ones. And maybe you have like a multipurpose device, like a Swiss army knife, and you're trademarking the look of it and the design of it. But no one can say, I own the knife, you know, or I own the nail.

[Ben Bullen]

Right. You can say you own a specific production method or manufacturing approach to a kind of Knife. But you can't be like, I'm the King of Knives. Which would be funny, but also pretty creepy. If you meet someone who calls themselves the King of Knives, we suggest that.

[Noel Brown]

You know, there's a King of Knives somewhere in Muskogee, Wisconsin or something. He's got TV commercials. I'm the knife king.

[Ben Bullen]

You know, I do like, come kick.

[Noel Brown]

Come to my knife palace.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes, yes. I love a sharp customer. Oh, geez.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, no. So, okay, we do know that, that Apple Computers still had a bit of a cheeky sense of humor here. Their 1991 operating software has a sound file on it called. We'll spell it for you first. S O S U M I. How would you pronounce that?

[Noel Brown]

Sasumi.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes.

[Noel Brown]

It's like a tiny orange, right? No, that's a satsuma. Wait a minute. It. Is this a cheeky little joke? Yeah, cheeky little lawyer joke. So sue me. Just do it.

[Ben Bullen]

And they could get away with it if they're doing hair splitting legalese because they can say, oh, it's just an inspiring name. And we double check to make sure you don't own the way that's spelled. Why are you guys mad? So it's a prank war, you know, and this is just like, it's a great story, but we do know that they can't leave it as is. Right. So they have to figure out a sort of second covenant. A second Pinky swear settlement.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. And this agreement, while acknowledging the changing dynamics of what computers were capable of, it did kind of broaden the language a little bit. And it said that Apple Computers could use that logo for computers, data processing, telecommunications, but excluded music products, which is super, super weird because again, it can be a music product given someone writing code that would allow it to do that or creating some sort of peripheral that it would allow it to do that. Some sort of device that could be connected to it. This was never going to last.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. This is at best a Band Aid. And it feels like everybody had to know that going in. So while they're trying to make friends and calm the waters, as it were, Apple Computers, according to reports, they pay off Apple Core. They give them about US$26.5 million. And then they say, to your point, Noel, look, we're not going to sell, quote, physical music materials. However, Susumi is still a system alert sound on to this day on Macs. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Buried in there. It's not used. But I think it's like as they update the system software over time, some of the old things stick around, like, almost like, as like, a little nod to their past. And I think if you look in that folder where all the system sound effects are, you'll still find Sosumi.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. And this is the work of a employee from Apple called Jim Reeks. Called that because it's his name. He created the sound Alerts on Apple's System 7. And he originally wanted to. He originally wanted to name that alert. Let It Beep.

[Noel Brown]

That's good. That's good. Susumi's better, though. It's so much more cheeky and, like, underhanded. You know, Let It Beep is almost showing your hand too much. And he realized that knowing that it probably wouldn't pass legal muster.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. And so he went with Sosumi. And then he did exactly what we were describing earlier. He's like, I don't know. It's just a name that sounds kind of Japanese. It has nothing to do with music. You guys are being weird.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, exactly. Oh, it's so funny when a good. Yes, sir. Oh, man, that's so fun. So we've been hinting at all the while, like. Like Apple, you know, the. The record company, the Beatles organization, clearly very sensitive about this. This idea of Apple computers, you know, being in the music business. And it seems like, for the most part, they arrived at an agreement that was more along the lines of, you guys can't do record label stuff. Right. That's our thing. You know, we're gonna let the MIDI stuff slide. You know, whatever. We understand the changing landscape of technology and all that, but you guys can't distribute and put out recorded music. When did that change y'all? I think we can. I think we can conjecture.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Yeah. Also, of course, you can't make an Apple clarinet or whatever. That would be a bridge too far. That's a cool music product. But as you said, the Seascape changes. The tides shift once again. It's 2003. Apple compute goes to the world at large and says, hey, we have this idea for a thing called itunes. Now you can go to you Mac adherents, You can go to the itunes music store. You can buy individual songs or tracks, and you can copy it onto your ipod. It's the new Walkman. You can take it with you wherever you want to go.

[Noel Brown]

This isn't just a clever idea, Ben. This changes everything. I mean, right now, where we sit in 2025, the DEB about, like, how much artists are making has nothing to do with record sales anymore. It has to do with streams. Everybody knows that I'm stating the obvious, but like Apple were the first ones to have the clout to kind of push this stuff out in the world. And then they released a piece of hardware in the ipod that you also had to have to play in this ecosystem.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. And they built the sandbox. Right. So you have to, if you're a musician, you have to play the game with Apple and itunes. Apple Core is still around in 2003 and they are super not happy about this. They sue Apple Computer again.

[Noel Brown]

Understandably at this point, Ben, I'm kind of in the Apple Records or Apple Core camp. I mean this is clearly Apple Computers taking a big swing. Somebody had to know in their legal department that they were testing this. Also knowing that at this point, Apple Corps is just not as powerful an entity as they are, they can afford to fight this in court and they do, big time.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. For years. It's not until 2007 that the respective Apples reach a confidential settlement. We don't know exactly what they came to terms on, but if you read the scuttlebutt, you'll see strong hints that Apple, Apple, the computer company, yet again paid Apple Core, the record company, and they said, let us just buy the trademark.

[Noel Brown]

They cut the legs out from Apple Core entirely though, man. You think about that. Now Apple Corps has to license the use of that name and that trademark back from Apple Records. Not to say they didn't of course, get a gajillion dollars. But if I'm not mistaken, the first example of this out in the world world was Beatles Rock Band, which was a video game where you could play Beatles songs for the first time and sing and all that stuff. Guitar Hero, but with you could also play bass and drums. You guys know what this is? And it appeared in the documentation for that game. Beatles Apple Corps with under exclusive license from Apple Computers, more or less. I might not be getting that quite right. But it's along those lines.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. And this is where we go to Atlas Records. There's a great article you found from an author calling themselves Patty. And this breaks down the battle of the Apples. And they put it this way, they say it's not merely a legal saga. It is a symphony that echoes the evolution of technology and the music industry, which I think is a beautiful piece of writing.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, absolutely. Very well put. And can I also say that I just think this is another really good quote from the Atlas Records piece and one we've been asking that's posed very eloquently here. The question of where one company's territory ends and another's begins is a perpetual challenge. In industries marked by rapid innovation, the Beatles and related acts music finally made its way to digital music stores, including iTunes in 2010.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, and this is so here's what's amazing. Here's why I love this story so much. It is a story that is only going to grow more important in precedent as time goes on. As technology continues to evolve 100%, the.

[Noel Brown]

Beatles music is as important and iconic today as it ever has been, if not more so. I mean so many artists came from influenced by the Beatles. You know, music, recording technology, innovations, recording production techniques. I mean so much of that stuff has the Beatles to thank for and of course including their incredible producer and really like the fifth Beatle, George Martin. So it's important in this case really. A Trademarkia.com article points out. It highlights the importance of trademarks, their values as intellectual property and the necessity of protecting them.

[Ben Bullen]

And with this speaking of thanking people, thank you fellow ridiculous historians for joining us for today's episode. Thanks also to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, thanks to Alex Williams who composed our theme and Christopher Haotes and Eve's Jeffcoats here in spirit.

[Ben Bullen]

Thanks to the rude dudes over ridiculous crime. If you dig this show, you'll love theirs. And Noel, thank you as always and thanks for being our research associate on this one. Man. It was a lot of fun.

[Noel Brown]

It was super a lot of fun and there, you know, be more. I love doing stuff in the music space and and I think we're going to see more of that stuff coming from me in the future. But thanks for taking this journey journey together Ben and and also of course Max. We'll see you next time folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Stock up sale is on now, which means you can save big on all your favorite essentials throughout the store. Stock up on participating items and earn four times more points to redeem for your discounts on groceries or gas. Now through March 25th. Saved by shopping in store or online for participating items from your favorite brands like Pampers, Dove, Band Aid, Playtex and Premier protein. Offer ends March 25th. Promotions may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details. Hey, Janice Torres here and I'm Austin Hankwitz. We're the hosts of Mind the Business, Small Business Success Success Stories produced by Ruby Studio and Intuit QuickBooks. Catch up on seasons one and two and join us for a brand new season of the podcast as we talk to small business owners about how they manage and grow their businesses with the help of platforms like Intuit QuickBooks. Listen to mind the Business small business success Stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple.

[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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