Are the Vikings to Blame for Cats?

Summary

Ridiculous History Podcast Summary

Episode: Are the Vikings to Blame for Cats?
Release Date: November 19, 2024
Host: Ben Bullen and Noel Brown
Producer: Max Williams
Production: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction to Feline Fascination

Timestamp: [00:00 - 02:40]

Ben Bullen and Noel Brown kick off the episode with their characteristic humor, highlighting their shared appreciation for cats. Introducing their super producer, Max Williams, the hosts delve into the enigmatic nature of felines. Noel references a witty quote attributed to Sir Winston Churchill:

“Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, and pigs treat us as equals.”
—Noel Brown [00:50]

This sets the tone for their exploration of cats' complex relationship with humans and their place in history.

Domestication: Cats on Their Own Terms

Timestamp: [02:08 - 08:00]

Ben elaborates on the unique domestication of cats, emphasizing that unlike many domesticated animals, cats essentially domesticated themselves. Noel concurs, noting:

“That's so like them.”
—Noel Brown [02:09]

They discuss the widespread popularity of cats throughout human civilization, citing Amy Tucannon from Britannica, who suggests that Vikings played a significant role in spreading domestic cats globally. This introduces the episode's central theme: the Vikings' influence on cat distribution.

Cats in Ancient Civilizations

Timestamp: [08:00 - 16:19]

The hosts delve into the historical significance of cats in ancient Egypt. Ben references Britannica:

“After the non-avian dinosaurs became extinct, mammals became the dominant life forms. The first feline-like mammal, the Proailurus, evolved about 30 million years ago.”
—Ben Bullen [08:11]

Noel humorously adds:

“They are pretty cute. And they're still around.”
—Noel Brown [08:56]

They explore how cats were revered in Egypt, protected in granaries, and even deified. Stories include Egyptian forces allegedly refusing to fight when cats were strapped to soldiers, illustrating the deep respect and almost sacred status cats held.

The Viking Connection: Cats Across the Seas

Timestamp: [23:05 - 40:27]

Ben introduces a pivotal study by Eva Marie Geigel, a paleogeneticist, which analyzes mitochondrial DNA from cat remains across Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. The study reveals that:

“Cats from the Near East and Classical Egypt accompanied people on their journeys, thereby conquering the ancient world. They were the ancestors of our present-day domestic cats all over the world.”
—Ben Bullen [27:32]

Noel discusses the Vikings' extensive trade networks, noting that:

“The Vikings were farmers as well as seafaring marauders. They raised cats for their warm fur and to control pests.”
—Noel Brown [38:10]

This symbiotic relationship between Vikings and cats facilitated the spread of felines across various regions, including distant lands like Greenland and Iceland. The hosts also touch upon Norse mythology, highlighting Freya, the goddess of love, who was depicted with cats pulling her carriage, further cementing the bond between Vikings and their feline companions.

Evolution and Behavior: From Ancient Hunters to Modern Pets

Timestamp: [40:26 - 43:57]

The discussion shifts to the evolution of domestic cats, with Ben pointing out an intriguing trend:

“Domestic cats in Denmark, especially, have increased significantly in size since the Viking Age. About 16% bigger on average since what we call the Viking era.”
—Ben Bullen [37:52]

Noel muses on this anomaly:

“It's interesting. I don't quite understand why they've grown.”
—Noel Brown [37:38]

They speculate that factors such as improved access to food and better living conditions may have contributed to the larger size of modern domestic cats. Additionally, Ben compares cats to other agile creatures:

“Cats are famous for being able to maneuver their bodies through apertures that… land on their feet.”
—Ben Bullen [42:09]

Noel adds humorously:

“Fun at parties.”
—Noel Brown [41:38]

This segment underscores the remarkable adaptability and resilience of cats, traits that have allowed them to thrive alongside humans for millennia.

Cultural Impact and Folklore

Timestamp: [43:57 - 44:36]

Ben and Noel wrap up the historical exploration by acknowledging the rich folklore surrounding cats. They invite listeners to engage by sharing cat photos and stories, celebrating the enduring legacy of felines in both ancient and modern cultures.

Noel playfully comments on their producer Max's knowledge about cats on boats:

“Guys, just don't die around your pets.”
—Noel Brown [41:38]

This lighthearted exchange highlights the podcast's blend of informative content and entertaining banter.

Conclusion and Acknowledgments

Timestamp: [44:10 - 47:01]

In concluding the episode, the hosts extend gratitude to their contributors, including Max Williams and various listeners who shared their cat stories. They emphasize the significant role Vikings may have played in the global dissemination of domestic cats, leaving listeners with a deeper appreciation for these "ridiculous" yet majestic creatures.

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Notable Quotes:

• Noel Brown [00:50]: “Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, and pigs treat us as equals.”

• Ben Bullen [08:11]: “After the non-avian dinosaurs became extinct, mammals became the dominant life forms. The first feline-like mammal, the Proailurus, evolved about 30 million years ago.”

• Ben Bullen [27:32]: “Cats from the Near East and Classical Egypt accompanied people on their journeys, thereby conquering the ancient world. They were the ancestors of our present-day domestic cats all over the world.”

• Noel Brown [38:10]: “The Vikings were farmers as well as seafaring marauders. They raised cats for their warm fur and to control pests.”

• Ben Bullen [37:52]: “Domestic cats in Denmark, especially, have increased significantly in size since the Viking Age. About 16% bigger on average since what we call the Viking era.”

• Ben Bullen [42:09]: “Cats are famous for being able to maneuver their bodies through apertures that… land on their feet.”

---

This episode of "Ridiculous History" offers a captivating journey through time, unraveling the intertwined destinies of Vikings and cats. By blending historical analysis with engaging storytelling, Ben and Noel illuminate how these formidable seafarers may have inadvertently shaped the global presence of one of humanity's most beloved companions.

Transcript

[Ben Bullen]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so much for tuning in. Geez, we've got the energy here. We've got some meows. That's our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. So you're Noel Brown. I'm Ben Bullen. Nolan. It's safe to say that all three of us enjoy the feline.

[Noel Brown]

Enjoy is a strong word. No, I do enjoy a good cat, but they're a little catty. It's really the only way to describe them is they don't care about us. You found Max, you found a really great quote from Sir Winston Churchill himself that dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, and pigs treat us as equals. I'm not sure who this is more insulting to. I think it's the humans that really come out on the losing end of this. This particular expression.

[Ben Bullen]

I think he was probably insulting someone at a diplomatic function.

[Noel Brown]

Likely.

[Ben Bullen]

Classic Winston. What was his other quote? You know, someone said, you, sir, are drunk. And he said, very well, but tomorrow I'll be. And you'll still be ugly.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, and. Or it's good, but yeah, like we said, cats are really like catty cat. Like, not really. They kind of are their own thing, you know. Have you seen the meme where it's like a cat, like with like bisected and there's like a weird alien inside steering it?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. And cats also, not to get too brain stuff about it, check out the earlier videos on domestication. Cats are arguably one of the only quote unquote domestic animals that domesticated themselves. Of course they do.

[Noel Brown]

That's so like them.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, that's classic cat. You may be surprised to realize that given cats ancient history with humanity, overall, cats are pretty popular in most parts of the world. There is purportedly one group of historical people that have perhaps popularized our feline friends to the world overall. Caveat. Caveat. Caveat. Let's go to Amy Tucannon, writing for Britannica, who says, quote, while Vikings don't.

[Noel Brown]

Exactly have a reputation for being cuddly, their travel companions do. Yeah, we're talking about cats. Vikings loved a cat.

[Ben Bullen]

So in today's somewhat subjective and somewhat biased episode of Ridiculous History, we're going to talk about the origins of what we call the house cat and how Vikings may have helped spread the cat as a pet around the world. Again, caveat, kind of. This one is family friendly. So if you happen like us to have some cats in your household, listen in and let's see if your cat approves. Also, send us cat photos on ridiculous historians on Facebook.

[Noel Brown]

They'll probably wander away halfway through. It's okay, we're not offended. We see you take a quick word from a tiny sponsor and then we'll be back with this tale.

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[Ben Bullen]

We have returned. One reason that we're going to be brief with the history of cats is because a there are multiple great pieces of scholarship written about it, B there are tons of podcasts out there that are probably just about cats and c cats. Like without even introducing the toxoplasmosis argument, a lot of people who are on board with cats write about them. So cats are in the historical record in a way that many other animals simply are not.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, they're pictured in a lot of imagery surrounding ancient civilizations. They figure into a lot of lore and kind of religious iconography as well.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. If we go back to our pals of Britannica. If we go way, way back. Max, can we get some way back music? Perfect. Perfect. Oh dang it. All right, keep it in. Britannica says after the non avian dinosaurs became extinct, mammals became the dominant life forms. The first feline like mammal, the Pro allurus, evolved about 30 million years ago. And it is currently believed that all true cat species evolved from this small guy who was a predator who looked a lot like a civet. Do we remember what a civet looks like?

[Noel Brown]

Kind of like a cat, like raccoon. They're pretty cute. And they're still around. Yeah, exactly. You can look up a lot of pictures of civets. Some of them too have, I don't know, almost leopard like coats. Yeah, yeah. Actually, most of them seem to have that pattern.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah, they're, they're, they're cool guys. And if you look at cats that resemble today's friendly felines, they first appear about 5.3 to 3.6 million years ago. And it, it reminds me of the convergent evolution of the crab. Like how most animal, like many animals at some point tend to evolve into a crab like form or like crocodiles hit their winning formula and just never changed it.

[Noel Brown]

If I mentioned to you that one of my nicknames for my partner is the crab, she has evolved into a crab like form. Just take, take with that and use your imagination. Do what you will with it.

[Ben Bullen]

So a big thing with what we call the felids, which is the group name, felines fall under felid. The big thing they have is, I would say, a flexibility, a fluidity, a kind of natural, inborn, park cat like.

[Noel Brown]

Reflexes, you might say.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, just so.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

And there are adaptations that occur. You can see many felids or felines around the world who are evolved differently due to environmental pressures, primarily the prey they chase. Because your average house cat is an obligate carnivore, meaning that it must eat meat to survive for sure.

[Noel Brown]

And I think we've all probably seen however, quote unquote domesticated your house cat might be. Given the chance to run around outside. They're likely going to find something to kill and gift it to you.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Because they're worried about you. It's like our pal Lauren.

[Noel Brown]

You're not eating that. Yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Our pal Lauren Vogelbaum used to send me photos of the different animals that her cat would kill. Indoor outdoor cat. And bring to her sometimes in what she believed were purposeful displays.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, I had a cat that is no longer with us years ago that I shared with my bestie and roomie at the time, Frank. And it would, I swear to God, it would be like serial killer tableaus. You know, where it's like the mouse has been dissected and it's dismembered. Parts are arranged in like a weird cruciform or it's Bizarre.

[Ben Bullen]

And so we know the. We'll get to the Vikings in a second. What we need to establish here first. So we've got the ancient history, the evolution. Next, where do the humans and the cats meet? Largely unclear. But we know ever since recorded human history, about 15,000, 10,000 years ago, with the rise of agriculture in the Middle east, in the, you know, Tigris, Euphrates and so on, the cat was always there. Definitely people ate cats, definitely people used cat fur as a pelt. But a partnership began and it was what we would call a symbiotic relationship, meaning both sides of the partnership gained some value from their interaction. Humans were no longer hunter gatherers. We're all sitting in the same place, we're growing crops. We're hoping those crops will keep us alive through winter. What comes along with stored grain? Rats, dude. Rodents, mice.

[Noel Brown]

They love that stuff, especially if it gets moist or whatever and starts to emit like a bit of a stronger smell. You're gonna get some mice, some rodents, some rats. And as we know, cats are really good at hunting those guys down and torturing and murdering them.

[Ben Bullen]

Obligate carnivores again. So now the human outpost become a easy way to find your own smaller prey. Right. It's not necessarily that the cats liked the humans, it's that, it's that the cats liked a predictable food resource.

[Noel Brown]

And that relationship is largely continued to the modern day.

[Ben Bullen]

Right. It reminds me of the old, the old question that is still debated in modern evenings. What is the most successful life form on the planet? If you measure it by weight, it may be the ants. If you measure it by behavior. Well, the house cat doesn't have to do a lot of work for itself. As a matter of fact, house cats are a menace to surrounding wildlife. If they're outdoors.

[Noel Brown]

Birds especially, if I'm not mistaken. Right. They can actually decimate entire populations of certain species.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, they can endanger worse than those.

[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

So eventually, way before people knew about toxoplasmosis Gandhi, people started worshiping cats. They attained socio religious significance. Cats held a huge status in Egypt. There are even gods that are anthropomorphic cats.

[Noel Brown]

I would argue due in no small part to their mind control abilities.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Also they do protect the grain, they do protect the granaries. So this is we can see why this would be religiously important. Cats in ancient Egypt were cherished pets. They were seen as sort of the protectors of life and stability. They were good luck.

[Noel Brown]

Well, I mean, anytime we see a force of nature that either provides or has the potential to destroy food sources or, you know, infrastructure of these kind of civilizations, there often is some religious connection that pops up. You know, a bit of worship just to make sure that. Because if we lost the cats, maybe the mice would take over everything. There is that very functional kind of respect and appreciation and need for these things that in the way they kind of do business, the Egyptians converted would seem to a worship. A kind of need to worship them.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Egyptian royalty was known to adorn their cats in gold trappings. People in the lower classes, the not one percenters, made in war jewelry depicting cats. There are also apocryphal accounts of Egyptian forces because Egypt was an expansionist empire for a lot of times. There were apocryphal accounts of Egyptian forces turning back and refusing to fight because the opposing force strapped cats onto the bodies of the soldiers.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, my gosh. Kamikaze cats.

[Ben Bullen]

They were like, we can't kill the cats.

[Noel Brown]

Wow. That's a very different kind of.

[Ben Bullen]

Again, it's like a reverse of that kind of apocryphal. Apocryphal.

[Noel Brown]

It's like the cat equivalent of human shields. It's bizarre.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes, the cat equivalent. The other stuff we know in terms of physical record of history, is that cats were deified such that they might be mummified and preserved along with their loved ones, or if they were a beloved cat. There were also little mouse mummies that were mummified. So the cats had a snack in the afterlife.

[Noel Brown]

Do you think they just keep eating it over and over and over again? The one mouse that gets mummified, that seems like a real hellish existence. Afterlife wise for that rodent, huh?

[Ben Bullen]

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Account required, regulatory fees included for qualify accounts. $35 connection charge applies. Also, we know cats have been clearly deified or prized in other cultures. If you go back not too far north in the Mediterranean, you'll see Cretan wall tiles dating back to 1600 BCE that depict cats who are trained to hunt for the humans.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, that's Crete. Right. The island of Crete in Greece. You also saw a lot of depictions in other art and in literature that indicates cats were there from the 5th century BC on. Not to mention in China, where we also saw cats featured in some kind of tile, functional tiles from. From 500 BC.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. And people in Arab populations and the nation of Japan, they didn't meet the cat until about 600 CE, as far as we know. Which I do draw exception to the scholarship there regarding Arab communities, because the Middle east is not that far away from Egypt. So I do believe what we're looking at there is just physical record. The earliest, again, record of cats. If you go a little further north in Britain, dates to about 936 CE, when the prince of South Central Wales sounds like. Every time I hear South Central, I feel like the guy has a rap album. But Guadelda made a law protecting cats. Specifically, you can kill other animals. Badgers are fair game. But guys, be cool about the cats.

[Noel Brown]

Cool cats.

[Ben Bullen]

Be cool cats. Yeah. And this is where it gets us to the turn to the focus of today's episode, Vikings cats.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, it would seem like not necessarily a match made in Valhalla. As we mentioned, Vikings are not particularly known for their cuddly and animal loving natures. But you know what, cats, that's sort of a bit of a misnomer about them, too. They can be pretty vicious with the whole serial killer displays and just the inherent carnivorous nature.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, a cat is sort of a Viking when you think about it.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Especially when you put those horned helmet on it and give it a little braid, right?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. You've seen Dr. Venkman. That's the name of one of my cats. So Vikings like sailing. The domestic house cat is notoriously, statistically not going to be a fan of water. The issue is the size of the boats. If we go to Weston Williams, writing for Christian Science Monitor, we see that Egyptian cats were often taken aboard watercraft to deal with mice and rats. So it makes sense. If your ship is large enough to have a cat, who is your ratting officer? You know?

[Max Williams]

Yeah, if I can jump in real quick. I actually learned this when I was younger, so I think I've told you all. My dad grew up on a boat dock. Basically, like, he grew up on a lake in this Great Lakes chain up in Michigan. And I remember, like, talking to him saying something about cats on boats. I'm like, dad, why would a cat ever be on a boat? And he told Me this fact, I'm like, oh, that makes sense. They must not like it when the boat goes down. And he's like, max, no one likes it when the boat goes down.

[Noel Brown]

Well, that's also true. And in my mind I'm thinking too, like, this would be largely while the boats are docked, right? Or would there be a seafaring cat that would, like, go out on the voyage?

[Ben Bullen]

There are seafaring cats even, even now some of the most famous seafaring cats in other wars, in World War I and World War II, they were, they were considered part of the crew and they also got promoted if they killed enough vermin.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, I love the idea of a seafaring cat wearing a little naval uniform and like steering the ship, you know, behind the giant wheel.

[Max Williams]

I know we have an episode about that years back now, I don't remember how long ago, but about a heroic animals. And a lot of them were cats.

[Ben Bullen]

They were, they know what's going on. So let's go to Eva Marie Geigel, who is a paleogeneticist at the Institut Jacques Manod. In this person led one of the biggest studies about the interaction of cats with early humans. It was published in nature.com it's the paleogenetics of cat dispersal in the ancient world. Of course, it's got a lot of.

[Noel Brown]

Authors and they told ABC in an interview, we found the first time that in prehistoric times, cats from the near east and in classical times from Egypt accompanied people on their journeys, thereby conquering the ancient world. They were the ancestors of our present day domestic cats all over the world.

[Ben Bullen]

And the study is pretty smart. They analyze mitochondrial DNA from the remains of cats across Europe, the Middle east and Africa. They looked at 200 cat cadavers. Cat Davers and the cats live anywhere from 15,000 years ago to the 1700s. The cats that had that mitochondrial DNA indicating origin in Egypt, they were found as far north as Viking sites, especially one in northern Germany dating between the 8th and 11th century. And let's pause here to bust a myth. The Vikings were not just picking on northern Europe. They made it to northern America. They made it to Greenland and Iceland. They had extensive or they were part of an extensive trade network going down to North Africa, going out to western Eurasia. They got around. It's not just some dudes on a boat having a bad day doing psychoactive substances and behaving as though they're angry bears. Shout OUT Berserkers though.

[Noel Brown]

Angry bears. Wasn't that like a phone game? No, that's angry Birds. I'm sorry, I'm angry.

[Ben Bullen]

Bears is good, though. We can't get sued.

[Noel Brown]

No, surely not. They did flappy bird. You know. It's close enough.

[Ben Bullen]

The Vikings did wear cat pelts, probably when the cat died. They didn't have the same reverence as the rulers of ancient Egypt. However, we do know that cats were an important part of Norse mythology, especially because of Freya, the goddess of love. They were super into carriages for their. Like, Nordic countries were super into carriages. So Freya had two cats that pulled her carriage and.

[Noel Brown]

Gotta be powerful cats, man.

[Ben Bullen]

Right. And there's another myth we wanted to shout out in particular.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, just that I think it's interesting. When Thor in, you know, Norse mythology visited Utgard, he attempted to lift Loki's cat. Utgard, Loki's cat. And it actually turned out to be the Midgard serpent or the world serpent. You might remember from the God of War game. I believe it's the third one. God of war, Valhalla, if I'm not mistaken, that I still haven't finished. But there's this crazy serpent that encircles the world, and I believe that's the Midgard serpent also. Freya is an important character in that game as well. And I want to say at some point in the God of War games, you do meet some kind of giant cat. But maybe I'm misrepresented remembering that. But it's a very cool game and certainly takes some liberties with the mythology, but has some interesting, you know, kind of bits in there that you might find interesting if you're into this kind of stuff.

[Ben Bullen]

And Utgard Loki, to be clear, is not the same as Loki Loki. Utgard Loki is, I guess it would translate to like the trickster of the Outlands. He's a Jotnar, I believe they call it, which is somewhat. But kind of similar to a Nephilim. Different show.

[Noel Brown]

But then there's Jotunheim as well, which is the land of the giants in the game, which I think is also accurate in mythology. Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

And so if we're asking what these cats look like, you might be listening to this episode with doing your. What's a bad guy? Inspector gadget. Dr. Claw. His name. Dr. Nailed it. Thank you. Dr. Claw always has a cat on his armrest. If you are in.

[Noel Brown]

And that all comes from Blofeld and James Bond. And, you know, Dr. Evil has the cat and stroking the cat. It's. It's classic villain thing.

[Ben Bullen]

If you're stroking the cat, like one of our favorite villains. Right. Now you may be wondering, hey, did these Viking cats look like my little chonker? Not really. This episode of ridiculous history is brought to you by ebay Motors.

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[Noel Brown]

Yeah, I mentioned earlier that I love the idea of them having a horned helmet and sporting a little cat beard or at the very least a braid. But not only did they not deck them out in that way, they would not have exactly resembled what we know as the domestic Feline today.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. They would have been smaller, which makes a little bit of sense if you go to. If you go to Sarah Pruitt from History, or if you go to our pal Emily Underwood, you will find that domestic cats in Denmark especially, have increased significantly in size since the Viking Age. Most animals tend to become small when they are domesticated. That's why dogs are almost always smaller than wolves.

[Noel Brown]

Interesting. But in the case of the cats, sort of the opposite thing occurred. Right. It's interesting. I don't quite understand why they've grown.

[Ben Bullen]

About 16% bigger on average since what we call the Viking era.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Emily Underwood, in that study we mentioned before, had this to say about it. By 200 CE, the people of Iron Age Denmark were keeping cats among charred human bones. In a cremation grave from that period, researchers discovered a cat ankle bone with a drill hole, suggesting it was worn as an amulet.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, the Viking. The quote continues. The Vikings, who were farmers as well as seafaring marauders, they raised cats for their warm fur and to control pests. So by about 850 to 1050 CE, cat pelts started bringing a high price in Denmark. There was also. The study doesn't get super into this, but there was also still that old Egyptian influence. The idea. The idea that a cat could be good luck.

[Noel Brown]

100% Pruitt continues. As time went on, cats spread to rural settlements and estates as well as towns. And as the new study shows, they began to grow in size. Fascinating. While it's not yet clear why exactly this growth occurred. So. Okay. No one knows. It was a good question. It may have something to do with increased access to food. Okay. And better living conditions, especially after more and more people began treating cats as beloved house pets rather than strictly rodent hunters or sources of fur. Ben. I would pose the question, though. But that's the same. That's also true of dogs. And yet dogs got smaller.

[Ben Bullen]

Dogs got smaller. But dogs also. Oh, let's do an episode on domestication.

[Noel Brown]

I think you're right. Oh, absolutely. Let's go on the list.

[Ben Bullen]

All right, well, I'm putting it on the list now. And while we're. While we're talking about this, we have to say again, it does appear that Vikings had an intense relationship with cats. And Vikings got around. And when they got around, they had to bring their cats, living or dead. We know that increased consistent access to food over time does lead to. In some cases, it does lead to a larger body size. We know, for instance, if you look at the Korean Peninsula in The case of the humans, access to food during formative growth periods in adolescence makes a big difference in your size and your height.

[Noel Brown]

Well, this isn't to say that these were just chunkier cats. This is an evolutionary byproduct.

[Ben Bullen]

Bigger frame in general.

[Noel Brown]

Right. And you know, we certainly have little cats today, but then we also have like the kind of cats that I think are in your stable. The, the main coons, the really big chunky boys that are absolutely gorgeous, but like kind of dog, like in their.

[Ben Bullen]

Frames and in their behaviors.

[Noel Brown]

Got it. Oh, interesting. So they're a little more loyal or they're a little less cat? Purely cat like.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, man. You know, every. Everybody is their own, I guess.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, fair enough, fair enough.

[Max Williams]

If I can jump in real quick. 1. Funny. So Sylvia is incredibly cat then? At the same time, not incredibly cat. One of the weird, like, dog like traits she does is she like waits at the door for me. So like, when I get home, she's at the door. If I go out for a walk, like we have these glass doors on our back porch, and if I go on a walk, I usually go out those and come back in. She'll be sitting right there waiting for me. She's an, she's an indoor only cat.

[Noel Brown]

She's just waiting for you to die so she can eat your eyeballs.

[Ben Bullen]

Actually, the dogs are faster to do that.

[Noel Brown]

Is that right? That's correct. I love my cats, but they also scare me a little bit. I'm not gonna lie.

[Ben Bullen]

It's also unpleasant that I know that fact. But guys, just don't die around your pets.

[Noel Brown]

Fun at parties.

[Ben Bullen]

Fun at parties. Thank you, Noel. We also know. We also know that cats have a kind of body size awareness that differs from the body size awareness of humans.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. This is a term that I'd never run across before. This is a whole kind of school of thinking. This, this idea of body size awareness and proprioception. That's exactly right. Like how it can inform the way a creature moves.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. The cats are famous for being able to maneuver their bodies through apertures that.

[Noel Brown]

Would land on their feet.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. For landing on their feet. Again, to the point about parkour. Right. Cats are very good at parkour. And cats also are more flexible when it comes to getting into an aperture. And also no one. What do you mean? Like an opening?

[Noel Brown]

Okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

[Ben Bullen]

You know, that's how they can get into the mouse hole. You know what I mean?

[Noel Brown]

I mean, dude, even my fattiest of caddies can do some serious leap and with precision, you know. And it's no accident that this idea of cats having nine lives is such a thing because they really do land on their feet and they can jump from heights and not be injured.

[Ben Bullen]

It's a lot of fur also, and I, I appreciate you shouting out, oh, the cat with a thousand names and then also Dr. Venkman because they're chunky boys. They've got a lot of fur and they've got a lot of muscle behind it, but.

[Noel Brown]

And a lot of heart.

[Ben Bullen]

Sure. But we also know, we also know there's a great deal of cat folklore which might be an interesting second part to this episode. We can't wait to hear everybody else's or we can't wait to see everybody else's cat photos. Fellow ridiculous historians. Hit us up on our Facebook page. Ridiculous historians. Also, big, big thanks to our cats. Big, big thanks to our super producer and research associate for today's episode, Mr. Max Williams.

[Noel Brown]

Absolutely. Big, big thanks to the love cats of the Cure fame. You know I love that song.

[Ben Bullen]

Big, big thanks to the cool cat Alex Williams, who composed this track.

[Noel Brown]

Ah, yes, one of the coolest. As well as to Christopher Hatis and Eve's Jeff Coates here in spirit, Jonathan Strickland and AJ Bahamas Jacobs, the quizzter and puzzler, respectively.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes, yes. Big, big thanks to Rachel Big Spinach Lance. Big, big thanks to Sylvia Komi, Vanessa, Dr. Venkman, and of course, the cat with a thousand names, thousand tales.

[Noel Brown]

We'll see you next time. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you.

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