CLASSIC: Clara, The World's Most Famous Rhinoceros

Summary

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Ridiculous History: CLASSIC: Clara, The World's Most Famous Rhinoceros

Podcast: Ridiculous History (iHeartPodcasts)
Original Air Date: December 22, 2025
Hosts: Ben Bowlin, Noel Brown
Special Guest: Katie Golden (Creature Feature podcast)

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Episode Overview

This episode takes listeners on a wild romp through the true, stranger-than-fiction tale of Clara, an 18th-century Indian rhinoceros who became the toast of Europe. Ben and Noel, with guest zoologist/comedian Katie Golden, dig into how Clara’s fame not only swept the continent but also shaped European perceptions of exotic wildlife, sparked a merchandising craze (“Rhinomania”), and illuminated the intersection of celebrity, animal psychology, and human-animal relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Animal Encounters and the Mythos of the Rhino

[05:00–11:00]

• Ben and Noel open by pondering the most amazing animals they've seen up close, segueing to the historical mystique of rhinoceroses.
• They reference Albrecht Dürer’s famed 1515 woodcut of a rhino, which shaped European beliefs with its almost mythical armor-like depiction.
  • "It looks like it's dressed for war, like it came to kick butt and chew bubblegum and it's all out of gum." — Ben [10:05]
• Early Europeans often ranked the rhino alongside unicorns and griffins, with secondhand accounts (e.g., Pliny the Elder) sometimes describing it as the arch-enemy of elephants.

2. Clara’s Origins and Her Remarkable Journey to Europe

[13:42–19:00]

• Fast-forward to the 1700s: Clara, an Indian rhinoceros calf, is orphaned in 1738 and adopted as a pet by Jan Albert Sichterman, director of the Dutch East India Company in Kolkata.
  • “She becomes a house pet of one Jan Albert Sichtermann... until she got too big.” — Ben [13:56]
• Sichterman later arranges for a Dutch sea captain, Douwe Mout van der Meer, to take Clara on a 7-month voyage to Rotterdam in 1741.
• The practicalities are fascinating: special care included feeding her orange peels, beer, and even tobacco smoke, with fish oil rubbed on her skin to prevent drying.
  • “She acquired some favorite human things, namely orange peels, beer and tobacco smoke.” — Ben [17:10]
  • “She was not designed to live life on a boat.” — Ben [16:55]

3. Rhinomania: Clara’s European Fame and Circus-like Tour

[19:00–28:00]

• Once in Europe, Clara becomes a sensation, inspiring souvenirs, paintings, sculptures, and even fashion (e.g., the “à la rhinoceros” hairstyle).
  • “During her heyday... things that were fashionable in the world of style and dress were referred to as à la rhinoceros.” — Ben [26:41]
• Vandermeer toured Clara throughout the continent: Germany, Switzerland, Italy, London—audiences ranged from royalty to everyday citizens.
• Merchandising was robust; from life-size portraits to affordable commemorative trinkets, everyone wanted a piece of Clara.
  • “He actively encourages these different pieces of memorabilia and souvenirs commemorating Clara the rhino.” — Ben [25:38]
  • “Rhinomania was a real thing. I mean, it swept the nation, Europe.” — Noel [25:07]

4. The Logistical Challenges of Touring with a Rhino

[23:36–29:40]

• Moving a full-grown rhinoceros wasn’t simple: “...by the time Clara was basically full grown, around eight years old, we're talking 5,000 pounds of creature that eats about 60 pounds of hay, 20 pounds of bread, and 14 buckets of water a day.” — Noel [24:42]
• Earlier attempts (such as the 1770 Versailles rhino transport) required days of labor by carpenters, blacksmiths, and more—yet Vandermeer managed it repeatedly.

5. Clara’s Legacy: A Symbol, a Celebrity, and a Cultural Shift

[26:36–29:00]

• Clara’s widespread appeal inspired art, literature, music, and changes in fashion and public attitudes toward wildlife.
• Despite her celebrity, the hosts question how much of her story is fact vs. fable.
  • “...this has sort of taken the form of a bit of a fairy tale the way it's written in some places. But that's an interesting detail to have.” — Noel [29:40]

6. The End of Clara’s Journey and The Mystery of Her Death

[30:16–31:34]

• Clara lived approximately 20 years—a record for captive rhinos at the time.

• Her death, occurring suddenly on her third visit to London, remains a mystery (possible theories: natural disease, contaminated bread).

• Clara’s horn reportedly fell off late in life but regrew.

  • “...this gentle, gigantic, beautiful creature, singlehornedly... changed the way that Europe understood the world beyond the edges of their maps.” — Ben [31:19]

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Expert Segment: Zoo Psychology, Animal Fame, and Anthropomorphism

Guest: Katie Golden, Creature Feature
[33:38–53:21]

• Katie examines how captivity and celebrity might affect an animal’s welfare, especially large, intelligent mammals like rhinos.
  • On stress behaviors: “These kind of, like, obsessive compulsive behaviors that animals do when they're in captivity...for rhinos, one of the things they do is they have these awesome prehensile upper lips...they'll kind of fidget with that upper lip and do these repeated motions with that as a sign of stress.” — Katie [34:25]
• Enrichment helps: puzzles, games, and positive trainer interaction reduce anxiety in captive animals.
• Could Clara’s early human rearing have reduced stress? Possibly—but traveling, isolation from her own kind, and lack of rhino social cues probably caused her confusion or loneliness.
  • “...imagine being stuck with these aliens who seem to care for you, but they just are so weird. They're just these blobs that have no expression, show no emotion and kind of just give you food...” — Katie [40:30]
  • “She would tolerate social interaction and expect it. Although it must be very bizarre for her...” [39:50]
• On the ethics and realities of Clara’s adventure:
  • “I mean, it's not an ideal scenario. I think no real, like, captive situation for a wild animal, especially the size of a rhino, is going to be ideal...” — Katie [49:01]
  • Clara’s survival as an orphan likely depended on human care—“If she's like a calf, it's unlikely without her mother, she would survive.” — Katie [49:40]
• The conversation wraps with a note of caution: As charming as these animal stories seem, wild creatures do not thrive in captivity just for human amusement. The enduring lesson, per Ben and Noel, is to resist too much anthropomorphism.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On the Albrecht Dürer rhino etching:
  “It looks like it's dressed for war, like it came to kick butt and chew bubblegum and it's all out of gum.” — Ben [10:05]
• On Clara’s sea voyage:
  “She was not designed to live life on a boat…she acquired some favorite human things, namely orange peels, beer and tobacco smoke.” — Ben [17:10]
• On the rhino craze:
  “Rhinomania was a real thing. I mean, it swept the nation, Europe.” — Noel [25:07]
• On stress and animal psychology:
  “These kind of, like, obsessive compulsive behaviors that animals do when they're in captivity…rhinos…have these awesome prehensile upper lips…they'll kind of fidget with that upper lip and do these repeated motions with that as a sign of stress.” — Katie [34:25]
• On the limits of anthropomorphism:
  “Imagine being stuck with these aliens who seem to care for you, but they just are so weird. They're just these blobs that have no expression, show no emotion and kind of just give you food and sometimes soothe you…” — Katie [40:30]
• On Clara’s legacy:
  “This gentle, gigantic, beautiful creature, singlehornedly...changed the way that Europe understood the world beyond the edges of their maps.” — Ben [31:19]

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Memorable Moments

• The hosts’ playful banter about celebrity animals, personal animal fears (ostriches and birds), and 90s alternative rock lyrics.
• Clara’s penchant for beer and tobacco smoke, and her human companions’ on-the-fly attempts at rhino care during an era with little scientific knowledge of her needs.
• The “à la rhinoceros” French hairstyles and commemorative merchandise!
• Katie’s vivid analogy of Clara’s experience as that of “being stuck with these aliens who seem to care for you, but they just are so weird…” [40:30]
• The ethical conversation on animal captivity and the need for realistic appraisal over fairy-tale retellings.

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Takeaways

• Clara the rhinoceros was a genuine celebrity whose fame reflected both European curiosity and ignorance about the natural world.
• Her story is emblematic of 18th-century spectacle, commerce, and scientific inquiry, but also of the limitations of treating wild animals as objects or entertainers.
• Animal psychology research shows that, while attentive care can mitigate some stress, captivity and lack of conspecific social interaction remain major welfare challenges.
• Modern listeners are encouraged by the hosts and guest to look beyond cute legends and think critically about animal emotions, needs, and dignity.

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For More

• Book reference: “Clara’s Grand Tour: Travels with a Rhinoceros in Eighteenth-Century Europe” by Glynis Ridley
• Check out Katie Golden’s podcast “Creature Feature” for more on animal behavior and weird natural history.

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Transcript

[A]

And we're back with this week's classic episode. I've been Noel, riddle me this. What's the most famous rhinoceros? You know why Clara, the world's most.

[B]

Famous rhinoceros fan, you know the answer to that.

[A]

Okay, well, I don't know.

[B]

I love the name Clara because it just, it evokes images of like a dainty ballerina esque figure. I only say that because of Clara from, from the Nutcracker and the idea of maybe that's what they were going for because the idea of a rhinoceros being a huge lumbering beast also being able to kind of tippy toe around pirouette is a little funny.

[A]

Yeah, this is. This was a really interesting one for us. Back in 2019. We learned the story of an enterprising, I'll say enterprising sea captain who got a hold of an orphaned rhino and made friends and took the rhino with him back home. And we're doing this, by the way, with a special guest, our dear friend Katie golden, the host of the podcast Creature feature. Mm.

[B]

So let's jump right in and begin to unravel this history mystery.

[C]

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Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartradio. Welcome to the show Ridiculous Historians. Quick question for you. What's the most amazing animal that you have seen up close in real life? Hi, my name is Ben.

[B]

My name is Noel. I would say ostrich, if by amazing you mean terrifying, right?

[A]

Because you're bird thing.

[B]

Bird thing. Ostrich in particular because they got those gangly weird necks and those really muscular talons and the whole shape of the bird is just wrong to me.

[A]

Do you know for a relatively or comparatively brief span of Earth's history, flightless birds, large flightless birds were the dominant species.

[B]

Totally. I mean aren't like Jurassic Park Dinosaurs meant to have had feathers.

[A]

Yes, that is true. That is true. Spielberg did not back down. Another person who does not back down is our super producer, Casey Pegram.

[B]

Yeah, that Tom Petty song is about him.

[A]

It is. It is. A lot of Tom Petty's catalog is actually based on the life and times of Casey Pegram.

[B]

Yeah. Which didn't seem to work out age wise and timeline wise, but trust us, it does.

[A]

Trust us. Yeah. The whole thing's a concept album. I would say the most amazing animal that I have seen up close for entirely subjective reasons would be a tiger. The most amazing animal I've seen up close in the wild was a brown bear. Did I tell you that story?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Were you mauled?

[A]

I was not. I did survive at the end. I was in Boy Scouts and we were on a camping trip. I had walked away from the campsite and let me put this delicately. I was. I was peeing in a creek, which, you know, I probably shouldn't have been doing. And then mid stream is the best way to put it. I looked across the creek and I saw a bear on the other side of the creek just chilling and staring at me while I was midstream. And I didn't know what to do, so I just kept going. And then I backed away. I walked backwards back to the campsite and the bear just stared at me.

[B]

What you're describing, Ben, is the natural adaptation that was the inspiration for the Care Bear stare.

[A]

With a Care Bear stare. Yeah. As long as it wasn't the inspiration for that Leonardo DiCaprio vehicle. What was that?

[B]

Where was he in a live action Care Bears movie?

[A]

No, he was in a movie with a bear.

[B]

Oh, the one where he eats raw meat and curls up in an animal carcass. And I think they gave him the Oscar for it.

[A]

Yeah. Casey, do you remember which one that was? The Revenant. That was it.

[B]

Casey on the case.

[A]

Kayce on the case. Today's episode is about several things. It is about an amaz animal that very few of us get a chance to see in the wild nowadays. And it's about the way fame can affect people. And this is a very special episode today because we are not entering into this foray alone.

[B]

Well, we're entering into it alone, but we're going to exit it with company.

[A]

Yes, that's correct. Yes, we do have a surprise guest at the end. But our first guest, at least in concept here, spirit. In spirit. There we go. Is actually not a person. Our first guest is a rhinoceros.

[B]

That's Right. Not to be confused with the very depressing Smashing Pumpkin song of the same name. And actually, in retrospect, highly pretentious. I was so in love with that stuff. And some of it holds up, but that song, he's like plan de chao. Trees and balloons. What does that even mean? Billy Corgan, you know, Cream, Snow. Yeah, Come on, man.

[A]

I lumped them in with a lot of bands from that time period who, if you don't pay attention to lyrics. I've said this before. I've had those moments with Stone Temple Pilots as well, where I think, you know, if I didn't understand English, I would love this song. But that stuff, like the fashion victims gnash their charcoal teeth.

[B]

Oh, that's. That's zero.

[A]

Melancholy.

[B]

My beef with the song Rhinoceros, not one mention of a rhinoceros in the entire story. I guess it's maybe just the feeling of a rhinoceros. It has sort of a rhinoceros like melancholy to it, which, you know, that interest into the story only. It's interesting. We'll get to it.

[A]

It does matter, though, because for quite a long time, rhinoceros was considered to be somewhat of a mythical creature.

[B]

That's right. There was a very famous etching by Albrecht Durer that depicted a rhinoceros based on description alone in a really co.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, 1515 woodcut. And it shows a rhinoceros in profile. And it looks like it's dressed for war, like it came to kick butt and chew bubblegum and it's all out of gum.

[B]

Looks like one of those ones from. Looks like one of those ones from the Black Panther.

[A]

That.

[B]

There's that tribe that comes into play pretty heavily in the big battle structure of the film. They ride these rhinoceros like creatures that aren't quite the rhinoceroses that we know. They're a little bit of an augmented rhinoceros, which is this. This etch very much the case. It has an extra horn on its back, which makes it look even more fierce. But overall, pretty damn good depiction of a rhino based on just word of mouth, right?

[A]

Yeah. Especially considering how woefully inaccurate many depictions of this type were at the time. Now, at this time in the 1500s, many, many people in Europe would place a creature like the rhinoceros up there with a creature like the griffin, the hippogriff.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

The unicorn.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

You know, it's a cool idea, but someone was a bit in their cups, or as our dear friend Ben Franklin may have put it, they had been to speak with the king.

[B]

The king? Yeah. Ooh, and Ben, last thing, this Albrecht Durer etching really reminds me of Battle Cat from He man because it's a very large, muscular creature, decked out in some very bespoke, like, armor and kind of a helmet that goes over the rhino head.

[A]

I remember that, yeah.

[B]

Remember Battle Cat? Yeah. He was cringer and then he turned into Battle Cat.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he had to transform with He Man.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

One of the most creative names for.

[B]

Any superhero you ever heard of, the band Manman. Yes. I wonder if that's sort of a jab at He Man.

[A]

I don't know. I never understood why it was she Ra and not she Woman if it was He Man.

[B]

That's a good point. No one knows. But I will say that the new she Ra cartoon is supposed to be incredible. It's being held up there along with shows like Steven Universe as being very inclusive and very well written and interesting.

[A]

So handling trauma quite well, apparently.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. I really want to check it out.

[A]

Oh, and speaking of checking things out, Durer ultimately arrives at at least part of this description via the Courtesy of the 1st century Roman author Pliny the Elder. And I love his description of the rhinoceros Gnoll. He calls it fast, impetuous and cunning, the mortal enemy of the elephant.

[B]

Elephant, yeah. Where is this coming from?

[A]

There's some night man, day man stuff going on big time.

[B]

No, And I think even like, what was he basing these observations on? Did plant. Were. Were there rhinoceroses in Rome?

[A]

That's a good question. What do you think?

[B]

I have a feeling it was probably more word of mouth and he probably did some research based on people that were traveling to foreign lands and then maybe interviewed them. But he didn't strike me as the type that was gonna go off to India or Africa or anything that wasn't really in the cards.

[A]

Pliny also got plenty of things wrong, you know what I mean? It's not as if he could hop on the Internet or even visit a particularly well stocked library. So he, most likely, Pliny, that is, was getting his accounts from Greek and Roman forays into India, and he was describing an Indian rhinoceros, which is the.

[B]

Subject of our story today, actually. And one last thing. Pliny was a naval commander earlier in his life before he became like, you know, a well known know it all.

[A]

As in maritime, not belly buttons.

[B]

That's right. That's right. So I don't know that he experienced these things firsthand. But I think he definitely had the opportunity possibly to have, but more likely been that he heard it from someone else.

[A]

And this is where we meet Clara. Let's fast forward to the 1700s. Clara is a rhinoceros. And in 1738 her mother is tragically killed in India.

[B]

Bambi style.

[A]

Bambi style, dude. And she becomes a house pet of one Jan Albert Sichtermann, director of the Dutch East India Company. And he kept her, he raised her in his estate in Kolkata until she got too big. Now apparently she's very well behaved. People loved her. She loved people. But a rhinoceros is a huge creature. And eventually, as she grew into adulthood, she was just, despite her best intentions, too big to walk around inside without wrecking the place.

[B]

What do you call a baby rhinoceros, Ben? Is it a pup?

[A]

Thomas. Janine.

[B]

Clara.

[A]

Clara. A calf.

[B]

Ah. Like a hippo. I believe a hippo is off. I believe that's the case. This is so cool though, because this is one of those stories where anytime you have animals taken out of their natural habitat and kind of trotted around for human amusement, it's easy to do an eye roll and be like, oh, that is not what this animal was meant for. But again, left to her own devices, Clara may well have perished in the harsh wilderness of the Indian jungles. Right? But this kindly gentlemen took her in and would trot her out for guests, apparently demonstrating her quote, table manners. Right. This is coming from an article from Getty. Edu. They curated a very cool exhibit at the Getty Museum in New York about Clara. And we'll get to what might have been contained in such an exhibit in just a bit. But for one particular dinner, let's say just for editorial purposes, Jan Albert Sichterman, Clara's caretaker, had a guest, a kindly Dutch sea captain. I'm gonna let you attempt this pronunciation, Ben Daumut Vandermeer. Very good.

[A]

And Claire at this time is about three years old. So she spends the first two and change years of her life living with Sichterman. But then she is acquired by Vandermeer and he takes her on a seven month sea voyage around the African continent, eventually arriving in Rotterdam in July of 1741.

[B]

And let's make no mistake, Clara was not full grown at this point, but three years, that's a big creature right there. I want to say somewhere probably in the range of £2,000, because by. No, that's not true because by the age of eight she was 5,000. So what do we conjecture that she was at the age of three.

[A]

Somewhere between that.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, cool. Somewhere between 0 pounds and 5,000 pounds.

[A]

That sounds accurate.

[B]

I'm gonna say a three year old Rhino CA. I'm going to estimate about 1,000 pounds. So just to get her loaded up onto the ship, not to mention a six month journey where this creature would need to be cared for and fed. No small task. This kindly sea captain really did have a soft spot. He was impressed and very taken in by this gentle giant as she was described.

[A]

And she was a little bit high maintenance because she was not designed to live life on a boat. So during her travels from India to Rotterdam, she acquired some favorite human things, namely orange peels, beer and tobacco smoke.

[B]

Yeah, I think people would like blow her shotguns or something and also give her a little sip of their beer. Probably as a gag at first, but I think she really did develop a taste for it and would have a little nip throughout the rest of her existence.

[A]

A lot of mammals do. Yeah. And also Clara's skin required special moisturizers so she didn't dry out. And that's why historians conjecture that the captain may have used fish oil, may have massaged her flesh with fish oil to keep her moisturized.

[B]

Yeah, I saw a really adorable YouTube video. I think it was. This is like sort of a fable almost. This has been recreated in picture books and like lore or whatever. Cause it is a really cute story. And I saw kind of a pictorial animated recreation of this. And in that they suggested that he thought, oh, she's drying out. What do we have an abundance of? We're in the sea fish, let's do fish oil. And as you can imagine, it probably wasn't the most pleasant smell, but it did keep her skin from drying out and cracking like under the sun.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. This is first off we have to commend the captain and their crew because they would realistically have been figuring this out on the fly. What does a rhinoceros eat? How much food does it need? How much water does it need? So this was trial and error and fortunately for Clara, they persevered and it worked. When they arrive in Rotterdam, she gets a temporary home in Leiden and then in Amsterdam. And she's exhibited around the Netherlands for several years before she makes her next trip abroad to Germany. And that was in 1744. At the time she was called the Dutch rhino because that's what people associated her with. They wouldn't say. It would be an unnecessarily long explanation to say, well, you've heard of India, right?

[B]

Sure. And I mean, let's think about the way we view circuses today. You know, we know circuses are problematic and the way animals are treated in circuses has historically been proven to be kind of gross. But think about the fascination even at the top of the show, Ben, you had with your pal the grizzly bear and my abject horror fascination with the ostrich. Things that we have seen in various forms, whether printed or in movies or whatever. But this is a thing that people had no notion of even existing. As far as some of the people that were seeing this rhino was concerned. It was a dragon of some kind. Right. Or some kind of mythical creature. So it was like rhino hysteria.

[A]

The rhino craze.

[B]

Rhino craze. Rhinomania is the term.

[A]

Rhinomania. Yep.

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[A]

This is also the heaviest land animal on the planet. There is an excellent book called Clara's Grand Tour Travels with the rhinoceros in 18th century Europe by Glynnis Ridley which describes in the most accurate detail possible Clara's journey. You see, Vandermeer did a lot of great things for Clara, kept her alive much longer than the normal rhino lifespan in captivity. But he didn't keep a journal. So some of this stuff is conjecture on Ridley's part. And one of the things that Ridley points out is that there was an earlier attempted transport of a rhino in 1770 in France and forest. Check this out. For a single journey transporting this male rhino to Versailles, the French government paid for 2 days of work by carpenters, 36 days of work by locksmiths 57 days of work by blacksmiths and 72 days of work by a team of wheelwrights. And the wagon still collapsed. Geez.

[B]

And wouldn't that have been like, at the request of a monarch?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So this is just like a dude, like a sea captain who's having to like, you know, pull this stuff together and figure it out. And not to mention that in that same book you're talking about, by the time Clara was basically full grown, around eight years old, we're talking 5,000 pounds of creature that eats about 60 pounds of hay, 20 pounds of bread and 14 buckets of water a day.

[A]

Not counting the beer.

[B]

No, not counting the beer. That's just like for a treat, you know. But Rhinomania was a real thing. I mean, it swept the nation, Europe, you know, Clara made trips to Switzerland, Berlin, Vienna, Munich, Strasbourg, Augsburg, all over Germany. Wurzburg, where I was born, actually, and Ansbach, Italy, London, several times. And inspired like, all of these aristocratic or members of these aristocratic courts who were like poets and painters.

[A]

Right, right. She had private audiences with royalty, aristocracy and people. May. This is very clever of Vandermeer. He understands the value of merchandising, you know, so he. He actively encourages these different pieces of memorabilia and souvenirs commemorating Clara the rhino. There are bronze sculptures, there are porcelain curios, there are, you know, life size portraits of her. 1 in 1749 by Jean Baptiste Audry. She stands in this, like, rustic landscape. There are etchings of her. There's another painting in 1751 that's currently at the National Gallery in London by Pietro Longhi. And. And this entire thing impacts society as a whole. It is Rhinomania. She is a craze. Now, most people probably cannot afford the opportunity to see her in person, but Vandermeer anticipates that and makes some different memorabilia for different budget levels.

[B]

Yeah, like the equivalent of like a commemorative circus cup or something like that, you know?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Or one of those light up swords.

[A]

And during her heyday, during the day, the heyday of her tour for a season, and things that were fashionable in the world of style and dress were referred to as a la rhinoceros.

[B]

Yeah. I think there was even a hairdo that got popular in France. If we can picture some of those big billowy buffon hairstyles in France. One of them was, I believe, called the rhinoceros.

[A]

Yeah. And they decorated horses with that as well, with like little rhino ears and little rhino tails.

[B]

Little rhino tails, yeah. It was like, I mean, it was an absolute sensation. And I know you mentioned private audiences with certain monarchs, but I haven't confirmed this, but I did see in one source that Louis XV actually offered to buy Clara from our kindly sea captain, or at least expressed that he very much wanted this creature. To which Vandermeer said, I'll give her to you for some exorbitant price. To which Louis turned his nose up because he was expecting it to be gifted to him. But no, Vandermeer was very, very much. This was like a companion. Even though he was, you know, cleaning up, making bank, obviously, with this rhino, it really does seem like he loved her.

[A]

Yeah. And she was inspiring. Songs and poems dedicated to Clara. And I think you already mentioned that when she toured Italy, she met the same fanfare. That's where this wonderful painting comes from. With some Venetians in masks staring at the rhinoceros. Very, very Eyes Wide Shut. That one's for you, Casey.

[B]

Speaking of which, check out Casey Pegram's recurring guest spot on our buddy Chuck's podcast, Movie Crush, which I appear on occasionally as well, doing a series about Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut. And I believe you also did Barry Lyndon and the Shining as well, right?

[A]

Yeah, those three.

[B]

And we got Paths of Lore coming up soon. I love Paths of Lore. It's fantastic. Such a good one. So it's sort of a Think of. People don't think of it as, like, top Kubrick. It's one of my favorites. Yeah, I agree completely.

[A]

Why, you may ask. Well, you'll have to tune in to Movie Crush to find out along the way, both as a animal and as an increasingly relevant cultural icon, it seems that Vandermeer and Clara really do have this bond. And she lives. We said she lived longer than any rhino in captivity beforehand had. She lived around 20 years. She went to London three times. You know, there are. I haven't been to London three times. What am I doing with my life, dude?

[B]

I mean, I went to. I think I have all the cool European destinations I've been to. I went when I was too young to remember, when I traveled with my mom when she was doing opera stuff. So I really hope to remedy that. But, yeah, seriously, this rhino lived large. And think about all the voyages and the hoisting onto a ship and all of this stuff.

[A]

Oh, yeah, the coach itself. She had to be pulled by six horses in a specially reinforced coach.

[B]

And again, with the whole trivia about the French government's attempts to do this thing. This dude cracked the code, and I guess he Must have parlayed all of that Clara money into ways of keeping her comfortable. You know, we don't really read a lot about him living in the absolute lap of luxury. I even heard that, read that early on when she was still growing and he hadn't quite cracked this racket yet, he would go hungry in order to feed Clara the rhino. Again, this has sort of taken the form of a bit of a fairy tale the way it's written in some places. But that's an interesting detail to have.

[A]

Survived, you know, and so, spoiler alert, Clara is no longer with us. If we assume that she was approximately two years old when purchased by Vandermeer and brought to Leyden in 1741, she would have been 20 and 17. And that is when, on her third visit to London, she passed away. Unfortunately, there are no contemporary reports from visitors who saw Clara of any visible signs of illness. And to this day her death seems sudden, unexpected. And we don't have a clear cause of death either.

[B]

No, we don't. From what I've seen it, it just sounds like it was her time. I mean, it was sort of an old age thing given that she exceeded the lifespan of a typical rhino. Yeah. I saw one version of the story that she lost her horn. Her horn fell off earlier before she passed away and that Vandermeer was concerned for her, but then he continued to. He felt that she enjoyed this life and that she was like this was the life for her, that she got pleasure out of being paraded around and being admired and sort of anthropomorphizing, I guess, which we'll get to in a little bit. But apparently the horn grew back and she had another couple good years in her of this life.

[A]

Yeah. There's one theory that I thought was interesting that comes again from that book I mentioned earlier, Clara's Grand Tour. There's one theory that says it's possible that she just had a natural disease that would have led to her death in the wild regardless. And there's another theory that says the vast quantities of bread she ate while on display in London may be a clue to her death, since any fungal growth in the wheat could, if consumed in large enough quantities, have a severe effect. Effect on the digestive system. But this is all speculation and the main point is that this gentle, gigantic, beautiful creature, single hornedly. I'm going to keep that, Ben. Very well done, very well done. Thanks. I'm going to keep it. She changed the way that Europe understood the world beyond the edges of their maps. And. And while we're speculating, Noel, this leads us to our segue. It's often said that fame can change people, right? The sudden rise to fame and you can't remember who your real friends are. You win the lottery or something like that. Right. How does it affect you psychologically? Well, Clara the rhinoceros had a sudden stratospheric rise to fame. Is it possible that this rise to fame could have affected her the same way it affects a human being? Admittedly, Noel, this is a pretty great question, but I think we could use a little bit of help exploring it. What do you say?

[B]

I think we have to, because we set up a special guest at the beginning of the show, and if we don't follow through with that, people will think we're liars.

[A]

There'll be chaos in the streets, my friend. Luckily, that wasn't just a bunch of smoke and mirrors of fellow ridiculous historians. We are delighted to introduce you to today's guest, Peter Podcast of ours, a big friend of the show, Katie golden, the host of Creature Feature.

[C]

Hey, guys. Happy to be here.

[B]

We are so happy to have you. And you might remember Katie, because an episode of her amazing show snuck into our feed, and then obviously, you subscribed to her show immediately, and now you're a huge fan. So we're all family here.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So we were very curious to hear your take on this, Katie. We set up earlier that question of how sudden fame impact a human being psychologically. We were hoping to learn whether there's any analog to that in the world or in the mind, rather, of the rhinoceros.

[C]

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question, because there's a lot of research into animals in captivity and their psychology, especially these larger animals like elephants and rhinos and tigers, where they require a lot of territory and their natural environment is just so expansive that when you put them in captivity and you put them in a different environment, it is a drastic psychological shift for them. So I think, like, to explore the question of fame, first, you kind of have to know a little bit about animals in captivity. So even when animals are really well looked after and cared for, and the zookeepers really love them, say it like the San Diego Zoo, where it's a fantastic zoo, but they still have these issues of what are called stereotypes, which are like, these kind of, like, obsessive compulsive behaviors that animals do when they're in captivity, like polar bears or elephants. And they'll do things like repeated ticks, movements, obsessive grooming, pacing, and for rhinos, one of the things they do is they have these awesome prehensile upper lips, or they're semi prehensile. And that's how they can grasp twigs or grasp stalks of grass and chew those up. They'll kind of fidget with that upper lip and do these repeated motions with that as a sign of stress. And so there is something in terms of captivity that can really stress out animals, and especially the large ones. But there's evidence that increased enrichment helps them out. It helps de. Stress them. So things like having to work through puzzles to get through their food, like games and toys, and positive interactions with their trainers. So allowing them to. One thing that I think people might not know about rhinos is you can actually train. They're trainable. They're fairly intelligent. You can give them. There's one rhino that has learned how to paint using its upper lip. So the keeper applies a dab of paint to its upper lip, and then it just kind of. The paintings are. I gotta say, they aren't great.

[A]

A little abstract, perhaps.

[C]

I mean, I know it's easy to be a critic, but they. I mean, there's a certain je ne sais quoi that's lacking in them, but.

[B]

So you're saying gorilla. Gorilla paintings are superior? Elephant.

[C]

I think they might be. Even elephant paintings, I think, are a little better, I'm really sorry to say. But, I mean, the rhino paintings, they put in a real good effort there. I'd put it on my fridge.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Well, I mean, a lip isn't quite the same as, like, a trunk or, like, you know, hands.

[A]

I know. I'm waiting for the octopus paintings.

[B]

I have a quick question for you because this is all super fascinating already, but one thing we maybe didn't mention is that Clara lost her as a baby, like Bambi style, and was always kind of taken care of by humans from the age of. From the age of, like, two or three. Do you think that would make this transition into captivity, or whatever version of captivity you could call being paraded around in this way? I mean, it wasn't in one place. It was a lot of traveling, which probably was even more traumatic, now that I think about it. But do you think having been exposed to that kind of life from such an early age would make a difference in developing those ticks or any kind of negative attributes?

[C]

I mean, it is interesting because there is kind of a precedent of a polar bear being separated from its parents and then developing these ticks and then, like, being reunited with its parents and still having the ticks. So it's not necessarily clear that parental separation would make it worse or better. It could trigger some stress for sure. But then also being raised from such a young age by humans would probably allow her to see them more as peers, especially if they're interacting with her in a real positive way. And if the training is very, it takes the approach of being encouraging rather than punitive. I think that would have a potentially positive effect on her psychology. Obviously none of this is ideal. Like, the ideal thing is for her to be in her natural environment and have a social life with other rhinos. Although I have to say, rhinos aren't the most social of animals. They definitely do display a lot of friendly behaviors with each other. They're not very aggressive with other rhinos. Only male rhinos can be a little bit territorial and aggressive with other males. And when they are, it's pretty catastrophic. But typically they're not. And females will sometimes be in groups in the wild. So like with, usually it's with their, their infants or young or even young males can sometimes be tolerated by females as they're sort of learning to make it on their own. And sometimes they'll have like play dates with other females where they're, all their calves will get together and kind of romp around. So I think for a female rhino like Clara, she would tolerate social interaction and expect it. Although it must be very bizarre for her because no matter how kind her or well intentioned her owners are, they are not going to know rhino body language. They're not going to be able to flap their ears back and forth and kind of like bob their head in a way that's going to communicate to her that they're playful or friendly. So she might, I'd imagine it'd be confusing, probably a little better since she was raised, since she was a calf, but still kind of like, you know, imagine being stuck with these aliens who seem to care for you, but they just are so weird. They're just these blobs that have no expression, show no emotion and kind of just give you food and sometimes soothe you in certain ways. And so you could maybe sometimes infer some care, but it would be hard for you to totally feel like you're actually socializing.

[B]

Oh, that's a fantastic way of thinking about it.

[A]

They can't even paint with their lips, you know what I mean? What's going on? Yeah.

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[E]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures.

[A]

I had some follow up questions here. Do female rhinos specifically experience any kind of fertility cycle that would change their behavior in adulthood?

[C]

That is interesting because typically the only sort of adult interactions that female rhinos are going to have are when they're in estrus. So they when they're going to mate with a male. So I would assume it's hard for me to say definitively how that would translate to interactions with humans, but there's certainly periods of time where they'll be more receptive to males and they're also, when they're mothers, they're more receptive to company from females with calves and and juvenile males. So yeah, I would think that perhaps her kind of, she might even have sort of a longing for certain rhinos social events that she's missing out on without really understanding what they are or why she feels that way. Because I don't, you know, like she may have that urge to do some kind of like socializing with her own young. But if she didn't she didn't have any calves, right?

[A]

No.

[B]

No.

[C]

So it's kind of, it's an interesting thing. I wonder if she sensed something was missing but probably couldn't understand why she felt that way or what that would be because I don't think they're intelligent, but not intelligent enough to know like oh I want to have a baby or I want to mate with a male rhino. But maybe just sort of a vague anxiety.

[A]

Could they feel loneliness perhaps? And also additional would over time a rhinoceros be able to learn, for the lack of a better word, learn to read human body language or physical cues?

[C]

I think to some extent. Well, first of all, I mean it's hard to say how especially an animal like a rhino that is not as social as other animals. So I would be a lot more confident to say like an elephant or a dog is going to feel lonely. Rhinos are solitary enough that I Don't know. I think that maybe. I think that, you know, because they do have some positive social interactions and although they're infrequent, they. They do happen. And especially the females have a longer period of time where they're with their young. I think it's certainly possible she felt loneliness, but probably could, you know, it would be a very different experience for an animal like a rhino versus a human or even a more social animal like a primate. And then in terms of understanding human body language, yes, I do think, because rhinos are trainable, I think they could start to understand certain cues and body language as meaning certain things. It's hard to know how emotionally salient that would be, though, to a rhino. So, like, there's a difference between understanding a certain C means they're about to get food or praise, and actually making the connection to it being a meaningful social interaction. So I think it's possible, though, for sure.

[B]

I think that's a really interesting angle to the story too, because the sea captain who kept her, we don't have any journals of his. So a lot of this is like second, third hand and it almost has taken on the quality of like a fable or a fairy tale or something. And it feels very Disneyfied. Like all of the accounts are very much like he. And he cared for Clara, the young rhino, and she was like his very own child and blah, blah, blah. And it's very anthropomorphized kind of version of this wild animal. And I think that holds true with what you're saying. But I'm just wondering, do you feel like. I feel like what we're doing here talking to you, is kind of arriving at more of the reality of the thing as opposed to the fable side. I don't really have a question, I'm just kind of commenting. It's just interesting because, you know, initially I was like, oh, this sea captain is such a nice, kind man. And I'm sure he was, and I'm sure there's some truth to it, but.

[A]

He made a lot of money.

[B]

He made a lot of money. And also, I bet Clara was as down for it as he maybe made her out to be, you know?

[A]

Yeah. I think up to Clara, she would have probably, given the choice, opted to hang with rhinos.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, it's not an ideal scenario. I think no real, like, captive situation for a wild animal, especially the size of a rhino, is going to be ideal if it's true that she was without her mother. You know, now we do kind of have the understanding of how to potentially rehabilitate young calves in captivity, but then kind of socialize them so they understand how to succeed out in the wild. But maybe back then they didn't understand that as well, so there may not have been much of an alternative.

[B]

So you think left to her own devices, she probably would have, like, perished, like, left alone?

[C]

Oh, yeah. If she's like a calf, it's unlikely without her mother, she would survive. I guess it depends on how young she was. But, you know, rhinos don't have that many natural predators as adults, but the calves certainly can get taken down by tigers. And she was a. I think she was an Indian family.

[B]

That's correct, yeah.

[C]

Yeah. So like, tigers and humans would be her main threats. And a tiger could certainly take down a young calf.

[B]

Well, then maybe I'll give the kindly sea captain a bit of a pass because the alternative. Probably not. Not. Not a good thing.

[C]

Yeah. I don't want sea captains to get the idea that you should be just like, taking rhinos out of the wild, though.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Our sea captain audience, Katie.

[B]

They just. They just turned on us. They just turned on us.

[A]

They're gonna take this really tough.

[C]

That Also, you've lost the coveted sea captain demographic.

[B]

That's like our main demo. Yeah.

[A]

Is the Merchant Murder. Yeah, well, also that. That goes for any. Any animal that's similar. Right. We.

[B]

We see these.

[A]

These cutesy stories, for instance, about a couple in South Africa that has a hippo.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That lives in their house. But it's very important to remember that as much as we want to anthropomorphize these things, these creatures are fundamentally different animals. And there's not a really compelling reason to take one out of the wild other than conserving the species. Right. And I think that's something that we. We hit on a lot with these stories.

[B]

Yeah, no, I completely agree. And I think this is a really awesome way to take this out of that kind of fairytale realm and do a little bit of a reality check. So thanks again for giving us that.

[A]

Katie, I have one more question. This is purely for my curiosity and probably for our listeners as well. Do you yourself have any pets?

[C]

I do, yeah. So I have a dog named Cookie. She's a pretty good girl.

[A]

It's fantastic. I was going on the off chance that you might say I actually do have a rhino, but let me explain. Well, please say hello to Cookie for us. Thank you. As my co host said, thank you so much for coming on the show and Shedding some light on the enigma of rhino intelligence and the inner life of animals and cats. Captivity.

[C]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

And this is the thing that you do on the regular. On your incredible podcast, Creature Feature. Can you tell us a little bit about that and where folks can find you? And it.

[C]

Yeah. So we talk about human behavior and also animal behavior and sort of the crossroads of these two seemingly different worlds. And I think as we have these discussions, we find out that even though you can't necessarily completely anthropomorphize animals, there's a lot of interesting crossover and behaviors that you'll find in animals that are kind of eerily similar to our own. And we look at it from the perspective of evolutionary biology and research and clinical psychology. And so you can find us. Our podcast is called Creature Feature and it's on itunes, wherever you get your podcasts. And also the iHeartRadio app. And also you could follow us on Twitterfeetpod. So not feet, like, you know, feet in shoes, but feet as an F.

[A]

E, A, T. As in a great accomplishment.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

I do wanna thank you in particular for an episode that came out in December, extrasensory pa. I appreciate that episode in particular, exploring the uncanny ways that animals are able to perceive the world. So this stuff is great. Of course, I, and probably Noel as well, really enjoy the Dark Tetrad episode. Not just because we're on it.

[B]

No. But it was just like, it was so cool the way you had us on where we really didn't do much legwork ahead of time. We just kind of came in and were able to have a cool conversation with you about animal psychopaths.

[C]

So, yeah, I mean, true crime is the thing now. And I feel like it can be applied to animals, too.

[B]

You gotta get a piece of that true crime pie. No question. And don't you also run a Twitter account where you, like, are the Persona of a bird.

[A]

Bird rights activist?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah. So I'm allegedly the author of Pro Bird Rights Bird Rights Activist. And I am totally a real human person. And not. I haven't been paid by birds to pretend to be.

[A]

Well, that's hearsay. Totally.

[B]

And I gotta tell you real quick, and Ben knows this, everybody who knows me knows this. I am terrified of birds. I don't like their weird little creepy beady eyes and their unpredictable movements. And they absolutely give me the creeps and always have. But I think your account is hilarious. And actually, you kind of play into some of the things that I find creepy and untrustworthy about birds.

[A]

Birds are amazing.

[B]

I appreciate that.

[A]

Birds are amazing.

[C]

Well, they're direct descendants of the T. Rex. They're little tiny dinosaurs.

[B]

That must be what does it.

[A]

And jackdaws corvids in general are just brilliant. You can befriend them and they'll teach their young. Oh, that's different.

[B]

I would. I would prefer not to.

[A]

Casey and I'll do it.

[B]

You can have all the Corvids. You can have them all. But yeah. Thanks again, Katie, for coming on the show. Thanks to our super producer, Casey Pegram. Thanks to Alex Williams, who composed our theme.

[A]

Thanks to our research associate, Gabe. Katie, thank you again. We hope that you have enjoyed this episode. We hope that you tune in for our next episode, which is going to examine the slide story of someone who may indeed be the highest paid athlete in history. Who is it? The answer will surprise you. There are several ways to find out. We have a way that we would like you to find out, which is to tune in to our show. In the meantime, you could say hello to the best part of our show, your fellow listeners on our Facebook page. Ridiculous Historians.

[B]

Yeah, you can check me out on Instagram at Embryonic Insider.

[A]

I am Ben Bollen. In a burst of creation. That's the name I chose. On Instagram, you can see pictures of my pets and my various weird adventures. Did I tell you I'm ending up in Korea again? Yeah.

[B]

No, you wouldn't tell me. You said you had a thing you weren't able to record. Yeah, it's a thing. Okay, well, thanks for. Thanks for the info. Well, we'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite show shows.

[A]

This episode of Ridiculous History is brought to you by Britbox.

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[A]

So however you cozy, it's all a bit warmer with Britbox BOX See holidays.

[B]

Differently when you stream the best of.

[A]

British TV with BritBox, watch with a free trial today at BritBox.com Season two.

[D]

Of unrivaled basketball is here and the talent is unreal. The best women's players on the planet are running it back with even bigger moments and bigger stakes. Don't miss as Paige Becker, Snafiza Collier, Kelsey Plum, Brianna Stewart and more take the court and redefine the game. This isn't your regular season. This is unrivaled, where the pace is faster, the energy is higher and every athlete shines. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5th on TNT, TruTV and HBO Max. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first. There the last one. Enjoy a Coca Cola for a pause that refreshes.

[E]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member finra, SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this.

[A]

Episode of Ridiculous History is brought to you in part by American Public University.

[B]

You're juggling a lot. Full time job, side hustle, maybe a family.

[A]

And now you're thinking about grad school.

[B]

That's not crazy, that's ambitious.

[A]

At American Public University they respect the hustle and they're built for it.

[B]

Their flexible online Master's programs are made for real life because big dreams deserve a real path.

[A]

Learn more about APU's 40 plus career relevant master's degrees and certificates at APU APUS EDU.

[B]

APU. Built for the hustle.

[C]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.