Loading summary
Transcript278 lines
- [00:00]
A
Fellow ridiculous historians, not too, too long ago or. I don't know, it's 2018. So, lo, these many years ago, Noel, you and I asked our pal Katie golden to tell us about something called the dark Tetrad in the animal world. Do you remember this one?
- [00:22]
B
I do. And if I'm not mistaken, this is an episode of that podcast where we were a guest that we also posted in our feed. So something a little for you today?
- [00:33]
A
Yeah, yeah, we asked our. We asked our good friend Katie, who's the most prolific serial meowderer. Max, I don't know if you want to put a rim shot on that one, but I thought it was good.
- [00:51]
B
Let's jump right in.
- [00:53]
C
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:58]
D
Hey, audiobook lovers. I'm Kal Penn.
- [01:00]
E
I'm Ed Helms.
- [01:01]
D
Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.
- [01:10]
E
Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from Audible.
- [01:19]
D
Listen to Hearsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow earsay and start listening on the free iHeartradio app today.
- [01:30]
F
Hear that? That's what it sounds like when you plant more trees than you harvest. Work done by thousands of working forest professionals like Adam, a district forest manager who works to protect our forests from fires.
- [01:42]
C
Keeping the forest fire resistant, synonymous with keeping the forest healthy. And we do that through planting more.
- [01:49]
D
Than we harvest and mitigate those risks through active management.
- [01:52]
C
It's a long term commitment.
- [01:54]
F
Visit workingforestsinitiative.com to learn more.
- [01:58]
A
This episode of Ridiculous History is brought to you in part by American Public University.
- [02:03]
B
You're juggling a lot. Full time job, side hustle, maybe a family.
- [02:07]
A
And now you're thinking about grad school.
- [02:09]
B
That's not crazy, that's ambitious.
- [02:12]
A
At American Public University, they respect the hustle and they're built for it.
- [02:16]
B
Their flexible online master's programs are made for real life because big dreams deserve a real path.
- [02:23]
A
Learn more about APU's 40 plus career relevant master's degrees and certificates at APU APUS EDU.
- [02:31]
B
APU built for the Hustle is moderate.
- [02:34]
F
To severe plaque psoriasis keeping you from being you. Get back to clearer skin with Bimzelix Bimicizumab bkzx, a prescription medicine taken by injection used to treat moderate to severe plaque psoriasis in adults who are candidates for systemic therapy or phototherapy Bimzelics can deliver transformative relief. Most people got 100% clear skin in combined clinical studies. Nearly 9 in 10 people saw 90% clearer skin and more than 6 in 10 saw 100% clearer skin at 16 weeks.
- [03:09]
G
Serious side effects like suicidal thoughts and behavior, infections and lowered ability to fight them. Liver problems and inflammatory bowel disease have occurred. Tell your doctor if these happen or worsen or fevers, chills, muscle aches or or cough occur or you've had a vaccine or plan to before starting. Get checked for infections, tuberculosis and liver problems.
- [03:29]
F
Start to get yourself back. Ask your dermatologist about Bimselix. Learn more@b I m Z-E-L x.com or call 1-833-UCB now one.
- [03:43]
A
Ridiculous history is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome to a show Ridiculous Historians.
- [03:50]
B
I see what you did back there.
- [03:51]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [03:51]
B
This is what they call the old ridicul history. Bait and switch.
- [03:55]
A
It's true. Yes. And you're Noel. We've got our super producer, Casey Pegra, and we want to introduce you to a show that we did that we had so much fun doing.
- [04:08]
B
It was a lot of fun.
- [04:09]
A
It's also not our show.
- [04:10]
B
It's not our show. But here's the thing, folks. It's a little thing called the holiday season. And we really needed a little something to pad out our feed, give you guys something juicy to listen to over the holidays, but make it where we didn't have to actually record a whole episode of our show, Ridiculous History. So we were asked to be guests on an episode of a wonderful show called Creature Feature, which is hosted by the wonderfully smart and funny Katie Golden. Yes.
- [04:40]
A
And we had such a great time on this show, we don't wanna spoil too much of it for you, but we had such a great time on this show that at the end of it, we, irascible scoundrels that we are, said, hey, Katie, is it cool if we publish this episode on our feed as well so that more of our listeners can find out about Creature Feature and all the neat, strange stuff you dive into? So what is Creature Feature? Well, it's this brand new podcast from How Stuff Works that takes a, quote, critter's eye view to explore how animal behavior parallels human behavior. And we entered into a dark, yet paradoxically illuminating exploration of something called the Dark Tetra.
- [05:27]
B
That's right, Ben. Which includes psychopathy, narcissistic personality, Machiavellianism. Machiavellianism, right.
- [05:34]
A
That's the original Dark Triad. But There's a fourth that is added occasionally which is good old everyday sadism.
- [05:41]
B
Sadism, that's right. And that was actually my favorite entry in the episode where we talk about a particularly nasty parasitic wasp that does horrible, horrible things to tarantulas.
- [05:52]
A
So check out our appearance on Creature Feature. Thanks again, Katie, if you're hearing this for having over on your show and if you enjoy this exploration of human behavior, please check out the rest of the fine episodes of Creature Feature that are available today wherever you find your favorite shows.
- [06:12]
B
And listen up for a guest spot from Katie herself on this show.
- [06:15]
A
Yes, that's true.
- [06:16]
B
Can we roll the tape without further ado?
- [06:26]
C
Hey everybody. Welcome to Creature Feature, the show where we explore the brains of animals and people. Ew, I got brains on my shirt. Today we'll be talking about evil killers, kidnappers, murderers and hidden lurkers walking or crawling amongst us. Then we'll answer the age old question, who's the most prolific serial meowderer? Does evil exist? There's not really an entry for evil in the dsm, the Diagnostic and Statistical manual used by psychologists. General attempts to categorize evil has resulted in the creation of the dark tetrad, a term used for four personality traits associated with bad narcissism, sadism, psychopathy and Machiavellianism. These are traits that are often attributes of people with maladaptive dangerous personalities. So what does it mean to be in the dark tetrad? We all know generally the concept of narcissism, sadism, psychopathy and Machiavellianism. But what does that actually look like in humans and even animals? Let's take a look at narcissism, for example. The DSM's definition for clinical levels of narcissism is someone who has a grandiose sense of self importance and shows arrogant, humble, haughty behaviors or attitudes. I mean, you've almost certainly encountered at least a subclinical narcissist. And no doubt you could name a few celebrities and politicians who fit the bill. But could you find narcissism in animals? Many animals seem like narcissists. But even if you point the finger at a totally self obsessed animal, say a house cat, you could also argue they lack the sense of self to be narcissists. Certainly all mittens seem so to care about is herself, but she may not fully comprehend that she is a herself. So can she really be a narcissist? This is the problem with trying to assign human traits to animals. We can't get inside the animal's head and know what it's thinking. An act that seems sadistic or manipulative may be simply an instinct that allows the animal to pass on its genes. It's impossible to know what they're really feeling, but, hey, this podcast is all about the impossible. So we're going to look at the animals that best symbolize each of the remaining characteristics of the dark. Sadism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism. We'll compare these masters of evil with their human counterparts, exploring what it means to be a member of the dark Tetrad and whether we can use modern scientific imaging to actually quantify what it means to be a psychopath. Joining me today on our journey into the dark is Ben Bolan and Noel Brown, hosts of the podcast Ridiculous History. Welcome, you guys.
- [09:15]
A
Thanks for having us, Katie.
- [09:16]
C
Yeah, for sure. Thank you.
- [09:17]
A
Thanks so much.
- [09:18]
B
I. I'm already kind of terrified, but I'm excited. It's. It's a weird feeling.
- [09:23]
A
I, for one, am and thrilled. Darkly thrilled.
- [09:27]
C
One of you were. You were mentioning you have a cat. Would you describe your cat as a narcissist?
- [09:32]
B
Oh, sure. I mean, he. I don't know. It's weird. He sort of, like, flits between narcissism and outright psychopathy. Like I was saying, he kind of leaves me little treats on the front porch where it'll be, like, almost like, splayed out, like some kind of satanic ritual, where it'll be like the head of a squirrel and the body of a rat and then, you know, kind of surrounded by, like, viscera and, like, the shape of a pentagram. Sometimes it's really pretty scary, but then he snuggles up, you know, like a good little guy. So I don't know what to make of him. I do not know what to make of him. I'm hoping I can learn from this podcast today and kind of get inside his head a little bit more and understand what makes him tick.
- [10:08]
C
Yeah, And, I mean, even dogs to me, are pretty narcissistic because they like my own dog. You associate them with being selfless and loving towards humans, but she's a black hole of neediness and desiring affection. So no matter how much I pet her, like, I feel like if I was dying on the floor, her number one priority would be to get another belly rub before I pass out.
- [10:35]
B
Yeah. And then, as we all know, too, if we died alone in our apartments with just our cats or our dogs, they would probably instantly start eating us.
- [10:42]
A
But that's. Any animal would eventually begin Eating you if it were a pet. I know.
- [10:46]
B
So is the love real, Ben? That's my question.
- [10:48]
A
Well, the love is real, but now we're talking about the nature of the body versus the mind or the soul, which I don't think is quite where we're going with today's episode.
- [10:57]
B
Well, you did say what is evil? Is evil real? So I'm intrigued. Please, let's dive right in.
- [11:02]
C
There's a lot of curiosity around whether animals can be sadistic. A cat or a dolphin who plays with their half dead prey seems sadistic, but there's actually practicality behind their cruelty. So take this example. Dolphins beat up octopi before eating them, even after they're dead. This may seem overkill, as if the dolphin simply can't stop their murderous frenzy because they're having too much fun. But there's actually a really good reason to play rugby with a dead octopus. Octopi don't have centralized nervous system, so after they're dead, their tentacles can still move around. If an overeager dolphin gobbles up an octopus who's dead but still wriggling, those tentacles can crawl up its esophagus and choke the dolphin to death. This is something that's actually been documented before. So the dolphins beat the octopi to a pulp before chowing down, preventing the octopi from getting its revenge from beyond its watery grave. So asking whether animals are sadistic is a tricky question. I'd wager a guess that, yes, more intelligent animals like dolphins or primates may have fun wreaking doom and destruction, even if there's a good evolutionary reason for it. But instead, I want to look at how evolution itself can create a sadistic monster void of any emotion at all. To do that, we'll have to take a look at tarantulas. And in this case, the tarantulas are the innocent victims of a much more terrifying creature. So you guys imagine being captured by a criminal sadist, being paralyzed by him and stuck inside like a killshed, totally at his mercy, completely paralyzed.
- [12:46]
A
Katie. I think about that all the time.
- [12:49]
C
It's like, you know those bad dreams where you're like, trying to run away from a bad guy and you can't move your stupid body?
- [12:59]
B
Oh, yeah, for sure.
- [13:00]
C
It's like, it's this really common recurring dream for me. I'm like, trying to run, but it just feels like you're stuck in mud and then you can't move at all. And you try to scream, but you can't scream.
- [13:11]
B
Well, it's like that part in Nightmare on Elm street where she's running up the stairs and she starts sinking. The stairs turn into marshmallows and she just, like, sinks into the stairs.
- [13:18]
C
Oh, I hate that. Or like. Or like the bed sinks under you.
- [13:23]
A
The fear of moving slowly in dreams, of trying to run but being unable to is, I think, slightly more common than the other spooky one, which is the fear of your teeth falling out in your dreams.
- [13:38]
C
Yeah, yeah. That's a common one, too. The body horror. Either teeth, skin, or hair just falling out. I get those ones, too. I hate it. Like, big chunks of skin falling off. It's the worst.
- [13:49]
A
I have one question. When we talk about this attack of paralysis, right? Do the animal victims of this sort of attack, do they experience fear as we would understand it?
- [14:04]
C
I'm not sure. So we're talking about tarantulas being the victims. So they're terrorized by this thing called a tarantula hawk. It's a sort of wasp. And I imagine if the tarantula is capable of feeling anything at all, this is going to be the scariest thing that ever happens to it. I feel like tarantulas are probably just a little more advanced than, like, a Roomba in terms of their ability to, like, sense things. But I feel like there's got to be some kind of very primitive wiring that is able to at least, you know, gets, like, some dim awareness of being afraid of something so that they can survive. Probably no other real cognition beyond that, but other than, like, oh, oh, yeah.
- [14:58]
B
Probably just like an impending death kind of moment, you know, where it's like, ah, fuck, it's over.
- [15:03]
C
Like, oh, oh, no. Oh, no.
- [15:05]
A
But the tarantula hawk, is it actually a hawk?
- [15:09]
C
No, no, it's a type of wasp. And if you look into evolutionary biology, you'll find that 99% of asshole behavior is by wasps. So what these tarantula hawks do is they wait outside a tarantula's burrow, and they pluck at the tarantula's webbing to lure the spider out. Because the tarantulas create this. This little sort of doormat of webbing so that when an insect crawls across it, they know to pop out and capture the prey. But instead of a juicy little worm, it's the tarantula hawk waiting for them. And it stings the tarantula with a paralyzing venom. And so the tarantula is frozen, but still completely alive. And the wasp drags the tarantula back to its Burrow, where it places the tarantula snugly inside and then lays a single egg on top of it. And I feel like if you're the tarantula with whatever tarantula consciousness that you have, if you can't move and you see someone lay an egg on top of you, this is the point where you're going like, well, this is not going to be cool.
- [16:27]
A
Wow.
- [16:27]
C
Indeed, it's not cool for the tarantula. So the hawk, the wasp buries the tarantula alive and tamps down the earth. So it's stuck in there, still alive, buried alive with this little baby hatching on top of it. So the wasp larva will feed on the live flesh of the tarantula for up to a month.
- [16:54]
B
That's like the buffalo bill of the animal kingdom right there. And this is, this is terrifying. Why is it so adapted to do this bizarre thing, thing like that? It seems like such a stretch. Like how, I mean, how did this creature come up with this idea? I mean, that's a silly way of asking.
- [17:11]
C
Well, think about it this way. Like when you, you know, animals especially like wasps, they don't have refrigerators, so they can't keep food fresh for their young as it hatches and develops. So by burying their larvae, they're keeping it safe from predators. But you know, if you bury it with some dead prey, it can feed off of it for a while, but eventually that's gonna go bad and it can't eat it anymore. But by feeding on something that's alive, it will stay fresh. So actually some species of the tarantula hawks will feed on non vital organs first so that the tarantula remains alive longer and that gives it more opportunities to feed.
- [17:58]
A
Makes sense. Makes sense. I have a quick question here, Katie. So you know how serial killers are often known for their specific mo either in the way that they commit murder or in the types of victims they choose? Are different species of tarantula hawk, do they operate in a similar way? Do they only prey on specific types of tarantulas or is it any hairy arachnid out there as fair game?
- [18:25]
C
Yeah, no, they, they are often very specific in terms of the way that they kill and which species of tarantula that they go after. Because it's such a specified strategy. Because you need a tarantula that is a burrowing type of tarantula. And so that's not going to be every, every spider. It's their very specific strategy isn't going to work. So it's picked These cute little. I mean, to me they're cute. The tarantulas that like hide in their little holes and then as soon as a little prey comes by, they're like, oop, gotcha. But this time they're the ones who are got. So also it actually gets more specific because female tarantulas are the ones that are the killers. Males just hang around flowers and try to get laid. So the mother actually will select the gender of the larva based on how big their victim is. If they have a big tarantula that they've buried alive, then the mother will fertilize the egg, which creates a female. Because the females are the big tough serial killers and the males are these little smaller flower drinking dudes. And so if the tarantula is small, you know, it's like the male doesn't require as much nutrition to develop, so the wasps will leave the egg unfertilized and then that creates a male baby. And adults are actually non carnivorous, so it's just the babies that eat the meat. The adults just like to drink flower.
- [20:00]
A
Nectar and then abduct and murder tarantulas.
- [20:03]
C
Well, yeah, that too. It's sort of like. Have you guys seen. Oh, what is it? What's that movie it's not called. Is it split? The one with James McAvoy?
- [20:14]
A
Yes, yes. Where he has multiple personalities.
- [20:17]
C
Yeah, yeah. And the one like, he has like the mother personality where he's like, I've made you a sandwich and like he's stroking her hair and stuff. It makes me think of that. These like, wasps that like, oh, I like to drink flower nectar. Anyways, enjoy being paralyzed while my baby eats you.
- [20:36]
B
Yikes. So how long does it take to kill the tarantula? Like, how long does this horrible torture porn go on?
- [20:43]
C
It can be up to a month, which is crazy to me because like, that's such a long time to be slowly eaten. It's like being in a sarlacc pit. It's just.
- [20:54]
B
Do they even. Do they even do them the kindness of re injecting them with the paralyzing venom or does that eventually just wear off once they're buried and they don't even care anymore?
- [21:02]
A
And dismembered?
- [21:02]
C
Yeah, I think it'll eventually wear off, but I think they'll most likely die before it does. And also the. They're packed in so tight inside the dirt, they can't move anyways. It's every nightmare combined into one. Like being paralyzed, being eaten alive, being.
- [21:19]
B
Buried alive, and having a baby Eating you?
- [21:22]
C
Yeah.
- [21:23]
B
Baby part is extra creepy. That's to me. That's the kicker. I don't know why. Something about the baby eating you from the top down is just really, really awful.
- [21:31]
A
Because even human murderers don't do that. That's one of the big differences.
- [21:35]
B
Very special kind of evil.
- [21:37]
C
There aren't typically baby murderers, although there are children who can be murderers. But I don't think infants have yet done a murder.
- [21:48]
A
It's a different show.
- [21:50]
C
So good news, you guys. Tarantula hawks are found all over the world, including Australia, which, duh, because Australia is just home to every monster. They're also in Africa, Southeast Asia, India, and also America. They're even in San Diego, California, which is my hometown, so.
- [22:12]
B
Yay.
- [22:13]
A
That's astonishing.
- [22:14]
C
Yeah.
- [22:15]
B
Were you able to find any video of this process going down? I would love slash.
- [22:20]
C
Yeah, I could totally send you guys something like that. I have seen it. It's pretty gnarly because you see this wasp attach itself to the tarantula, and then there's a scuffle, and then the tarantulas slowly starts to go very still. And that's when the dread sets in.
- [22:39]
A
Yeah. As you were walking us through this process, I was watching a video of a child who is watching this intense death match and kidnapping, abduction, burial of a tarantula. And even the kid seems to think this is a little brutal. You can see the tarantula attempt to escape, and as the paralytic agent is kicking in. But I was surprised by the size, because at least in what we're seeing here, the tarantula hawk looks significantly smaller than the creature it's attacking.
- [23:17]
C
Yeah. Yeah. And that's why it's having the ability to paralyze. The tarantula is so important, because it's using its smarts. Not really, because wasps are done. But in evolutionary terms, like this intelligent strategy over the brawn of the tarantula, that sting is extremely powerful. So there's this entomologist, Dr. Justin Schmidt from the Southwestern Biological Institute, and he created a sting pain index. And he says the tarantula hawk sting is, quote, unsurpassed in intensity by any other stinging insect. And that a sting feels like a lightning bolt struck the spot. The pain is beyond imagination. And you want to know why he knows this?
- [24:08]
A
Did he sting himself?
- [24:09]
C
Yep.
- [24:11]
B
Oh, wow.
- [24:12]
C
This crazy bastard, like, just created this sting pain index by finding a bunch of insects that sting and then having them sting himself and then rating it like, oh, yeah, that. Yep. That's a 10.
- [24:28]
A
How is that guy, is he still alive? I don't want to sound insensitive. Okay.
- [24:33]
C
Yeah, I don't think he's killed himself with insect stings. Just subjected himself to, quote, unimaginable pain.
- [24:42]
A
Now from. If, if what I remember is correct, wasps are notorious for just attacking human beings who happen to be around their general vicinity. Are tarantula hawks that way too? Or do they have to be, you know, provoked or prodded?
- [24:58]
C
They have to be provoked. So the, the silver lining is they're actually pretty non aggressive towards anything except for obviously, tarantulas. But I mean, if you get one caught like in your sweater, it'll probably sting you out of a fear response. But yeah, they, they don't go around trying to attack people, which, thank Christ, because that would be terrible.
- [25:21]
A
Yeah.
- [25:22]
C
But if you're a tarantula, you know, not such good luck.
- [25:27]
A
Wow. And they're so widespread.
- [25:29]
C
Yeah.
- [25:29]
A
So I guess then one of the big questions I keep going back to is, is this evil? Because it sounds like this is. While it's horrific for the tarantula, the victim, the incubator, it seems like it's the only way for these, these creatures to reproduce. Is that correct? Like there's no alternative.
- [25:53]
C
Right. And so this is like, this is the key question is. Now, I don't think a wasp is capable of being evil in the sense that we kind of define it because they're so simple. They're basically like robots. So it's like you wouldn't necessarily describe a virus as being evil because it's so simple. And even though wasps are a great deal more complex than a virus, I don't think they can have the intent or the awareness to be evil. But when you look at it, you kind of take a step back and look at it from an evolutionary perspective where it's sort of more of this emergent intelligence from millions of years of evolution. I mean, maybe you can define that as evil. You know, I'm not talking about like intelligent design or like some God controlling evolution. I'm talking about like, you know, you have this sort of like guiding force of evolution that is its own sort of like. I mean, it is, it is a form of intelligence where it's like you have to really zoom out to see it. Where it's just millions and millions of years of these small changes resulting in something that's so, so messed up. And maybe that's like a natural form of evil. I don't know. I guess that's a very philosophical question.
- [27:18]
B
Well, I think it is. But it's also interesting because so much of psychopathy is almost like reptilian type behavior or like non feeling, non empathetic type behavior, which is the kind of things that an insect like this would do.
- [27:32]
C
Right.
- [27:33]
B
There's no feeling about it. It's just, you know, I must feed, I must feed my baby and this is how I'm going to go about doing it. It's very callous, for lack of a better term. You know, but you're right, there's no cognition involved. It's just the thing that makes sense and that it's adapted perfectly to do. But I think we ascribe those kind of things to psychopaths as well.
- [27:52]
C
Right. Because I think with a human we're like, you should be capable of empathy. But then it, it's a really uncomfortable question because it's a little more clear when you're looking at a wasp that, okay, of course it doesn't understand what it's doing. But you could also make that argument for humans who can't feel empathy. Like, they may truly not understand the gravity of what they're doing. And then is that sort of like the wasp where you can't really blame them? Or is there something else going on with people where it's like, well, you should be smart enough to figure out like, does there even need to be like an intentionality behind evil? Because like, if it's defined as something where it's like you're incapable of feeling mercy or empathy, then maybe just like evil doesn't need to be intentionally evil, it's just a force that doesn't have empathy and then causes harm.
- [28:50]
A
So then we would be defining evil as not the addition of something nefarious or insidious, but the absence of an alternative long term evil evolutionary strategy, because that's what empathy ultimately functions as.
- [29:04]
C
Right, right, right. Yeah, that's really interesting. It's like we have. Because there are some animals who have evolved a survival strategy that could be seen as like, good. So like, bees are so social and help each other. So you know, a lot of these eusocial animals, so like bees and ants and even naked mole rats, they all seem to team up and pitch in and help each other and care about each other as much as like a bee can. But it does seem like a kinder sort of animal in general than a wasp. Even though if you take a bee and a wasp individually, they don't really, I don't think they can feel kindness. But you look at the whole, the group of them like A bee colony does seem to have empathy for. It's like each other in a weird way.
- [29:58]
A
So what would a tarantula hawk be in terms of the dark triad or dark tetrad? Would they, would they qualify as a sadist?
- [30:07]
C
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Like these very sadistic because like to keep something alive for up to a month and then slowly feed on it. It's just so, it seems so unnecessarily cruel. Even though as we've talked about it, there is a reason for it.
- [30:27]
A
Yeah, I think that checks out.
- [30:32]
C
As we've just discussed, in the animal kingdom, some of the most terrifying examples of sadism are due to reproductive needs in humans. Some of the most dangerous people are those who somehow link sexuality to sadism. This is called a paraphilia. It's a form of sexuality that is atypical or pathological. Now, a huge disclaimer here. I'm not talking about the BDSM community. People who engage in BDSM are very different from those with sexual sadism disorder. The key thing being consent and healthy communication. For BDSM practitioners, consent is extreme, extremely important. They may find sadistic acts or masochistic acts to be sexually arousing, but not unless their partner is equally interested. That's why safe words, setting clear boundaries and a lot of discussion is often present in these communities. And it's also why psychologists don't consider BDSM to be a disorder. They aren't causing harm to themselves or others. Well, I mean, psychologically speaking. But sexual sadism disorder is different. People with this disorder are aroused by the suffering of others, and the disorder is either harmful to the individual who might find it disturbing, or upsetting, or to others. In the case of sex offenders who seek out non consenting victims, what I find interesting is the difference between people with sexual Satan disorder who choose not to act on it, and those who do. Meaning that there are some who either have empathy or at least a fear of consequences while still feeling these sadistic urges. I had a clinical psychology professor who put it this the explosive combination is having both a sadistic paraphilia and a clinical lack of empathy. Those are the ingredients to make most types of serial killers. So after a quick break, that will bring us to our next member of the dark tetrad, the psychopath.
- [32:35]
A
This episode of ridiculous history is brought to you in part by American Public University.
- [32:39]
B
You're juggling a lot. Full time job, side hustle, maybe a family.
- [32:43]
A
And now you're thinking about grad school.
- [32:45]
B
That's not crazy. That's ambitious.
- [32:48]
A
At American Public University, they respect the Hustle and they're built for it.
- [32:52]
B
Their flexible online master's programs are made for real life because big dreams deserve a real path.
- [32:59]
A
Learn more about APU's 40 plus career relevant master's degrees and certificates at APU APUS.
- [33:07]
B
Edu APU built for the Hustle is.
- [33:11]
F
Moderate to severe plaque psoriasis keeping you covered up and feeling less confident. Clearer skin with Bimzelix can give you a chance to say I'm back. Bimzelix Bimakizumab bkzx is a prescription medication taken by injection used to treat moderate to severe plaque psoriasis in adults who are candidates for systemic therapy or phototherapy. Vimzelics can deliver transformative relief Most people got 100% clear skin in combined clinical studies. Nearly 9 in 10 people saw 90% clearer skin and more than 6 in 10 saw 100% clearer skin at 16 weeks. Start getting back to liking your reflection. Say so long to long sleeves. Love your skin again with Bemzelics only Bemzelics targets and blocks IL17A F to calm inflammation.
- [34:05]
G
Serious side effects like suicidal thoughts and behavior, infections and lowered ability to fight them. Liver problems and inflammatory bowel disease have occurred. Tell your doctor if these happen or worsen or fevers, chills, muscle aches or coughs occur or you've had a vaccine or plan to before starting, get checked for infections, tuberculosis and liver problems.
- [34:26]
F
Get back to clearer skin. Ask your dermatologist about Bimzelix, the first approved treatment of its kind. Learn more at bimze l x.com or call 1-833-UCB- Now-1 hey, what's up?
- [34:41]
H
It's Mario Lopez. Back to school is an exciting time, but it can also be overwhelming and kids may feel isolated vulnerability that human traffickers can exploit. Human trafficking doesn't always look like what you expect. Everyday moments can become opportunities for someone with bad intentions. Whether you're a parent, teacher, coach, or neighbor. Check in, ask questions, stay connected. Blue Campaign is a national awareness initiative that provides resources to help recognize suspected instances of human trafficking. Learn the signs and how to report@dhs.gov Blue Campaign.
- [35:20]
E
Hey everyone, Ed Helms here.
- [35:23]
D
And hi, I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts of Irsay, the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club.
- [35:30]
E
This week on the podcast I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice this is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?
- [35:51]
G
You know what?
- [35:52]
C
I can see you as Mr. Darcy.
- [35:54]
F
You got a little Colin Firth.
- [35:56]
E
Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett. Here, listen to Irsay, the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [36:20]
C
So how do you spot a psychopath? By the cold look of cruel indifference in their glassy eyes? The pile of bodies in their basements? Well, what about with technology? Psychologists have attempted to quantify psychopathy using brain imaging, which leads us to one of the most interesting stories in brain research. James Fallon is a neuroscientist who is interested in looking at the anatomical characteristics found in the brains of serial killers. He found a pattern of abnormalities in the PET scans of these killers, showing structural aberrations in the orbital cortex, the prefrontal cortex, the ventral anterior cingulate, and the amygdala. As he was shuffling through piles of brain scans on his desk, he was looking through a file on his family's brain scans taken for another study on Alzheimer's. One of the scans had the clear structural abnormalities consistent with psychopathy. Curious as to who in his family was the psychopath, he looked up the name and was surprised to find it was his own brain scan. Obviously, he. He wasn't a violent killer. So first he wondered if all his research about the psychopathic brain was just wrong. But when he took genetic tests, he found that he also had alleles associated with people high at risk for exhibiting violent behavior. He did some introspection and decided instead of it being a fluke, he may very well have a psychopathic brain. But due to his loving upbringing with parents and siblings who were devoted to him, he suspects he was able to avoid the more frightening violent traits of the psychopath. But when nature is left to her own devices, what kinds of deadly killers does she concoct? The deadliest serial killers are often harmless looking. They blend right in, allowing them to continue their killing while raising no alarms. As we'll find out, this is true both in human society and the animal kingdom. So, speaking of psychopaths, let's talk about cats. So, guys, which wild cat would you guess is the most prolific serial killers of them all?
- [38:30]
A
Wildcat, specifically. Let's see. It's probably smaller than one would imagine, because naturally people would think something large, like a tiger or maybe a lion. But I'm gonna go with something smaller. Maybe a bobcat or a wildcat.
- [38:47]
C
That's a really intelligent guess. Yeah, because like you have these huge predator cats. So, like lions seem really formidable. I mean, they have a thousand psi of force for their jaw strength. So just for comparison, we only have about 200 psi. So they're so powerful. And you know, there's also like the more sleek ones, like cheetahs who can run up to 75 miles an hour, and jaguars who are super like buff and can carry cadavers up a tree. But you're right that even those guys are really terrifying. They're not the most prolific serial killers and we do have to get smaller. In fact, our most prolific serial killer kitty is one of the smallest species of cats in the world, and that includes domestic cats. So they're smaller than your household kitty. It's this really adorable cat. It's called the black footed cat. They're about three times smaller than your pet house cat and they weigh in about two to four pounds. So females are around two pounds, males can get up to around four pounds. And they have a 60% kill success rate, which if you've ever seen a nature documentary and you see how many times a lioness will have a goof up and not be able to catch its prey, 60% is incredible. So they actually look a lot like a house cat, but just like kind of shrunken down. They have big eyes and they're tan with dark brown spots and striations. And they're called black footed because their little feets are black. And they're also called anthill tigers because when they're cornered they'll like, they'll mess you up, they'll cut you. They're very aggressive.
- [40:42]
A
You know, I'm looking at a picture of one right now and I gotta say, these cats are adorable. They look even better than my two cats. My two cats are just, you know, cat models. Basically.
- [40:54]
C
They have that like baby schema because they have the big eyes and the big foreheads and they're, they're really tiny, just super, super cute. You would not think these are a big threat.
- [41:05]
A
So what kind of stuff do they hunt?
- [41:07]
C
Well, their prey can be pretty small, so rodents, birds, pretty much anything that moves. And they can fit in their mouths though, so they'll do insects, lizards, birds and small rodents are their favorite. They're mostly nocturnal. They'll walk 20 miles a night, so that's the furthest that any small wild cat will walk. And I did a little math and if you scale that up to a human Size, that's like walking a thousand miles a night, which, I know. It's like. It's like the Proclaimers song, like, I will walk 500 miles.
- [41:45]
B
So does that mean these little sweet babies hunt for sport just, like, for kicks? Like, why. Why such a high kill rate versus lions, who, to me, seem like they hunt more practically and functionally to, you know, feed themselves?
- [41:59]
C
No, they. I mean, they just have a rapid metabolism, and they. For the food that they can't eat on the spot, they store in their burrows. So it's not for fun. It's definitely for nutrition. And these smaller animals will actually have a pretty large nutritional demand because they can't bulk up a lot of calories and then just, like, sleep it off. They have to be constantly eating.
- [42:27]
A
And to be clear, we're talking about the most prolific, successful serial killers, not just the most attempts. Is that correct?
- [42:36]
C
I mean, they actually rack up a pretty high kill count. So I would say they are of the big cats, they kill the most per day. So they can take down around 15 prey items a night, which is a lot. Wow. And that includes birds. So there's a really cool video I can show you guys, and I'll put that up on our Twitter, where it just jumps up and catches a bird midair, and it's got it jammed in its mouth and it looks very pleased with itself. But, yeah, that's like, about a kill an hour. I mean, these are small prey items, but, you know, you scale that down to the size of the cat, which is like two pounds of, like, pure murderous rage. And that's like. You know, it's like taking. If a lion could take down a small gazelle, like, every hour. So they also do. It's so cute. They do the little butt wiggle. You know, that thing, like, when your cat is getting ready to pounce and it, like, does a little swiggity swooty with its butt.
- [43:44]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [43:45]
A
Like Simba and the Lion King chirps sometimes, too.
- [43:49]
C
Yeah, yeah, they do that. They do the little. The little butt wiggle. And so that's actually not just to look cute. It helps align their feet under them so they can pounce with maximum precision and power, like a spring. And sometimes they do take down bigger prey, though. So they rarely. But sometimes kill cape hares, which weigh more than them. They're these relatively larger rabbits. So it's just kind of funny because they. They're just, like, so amped up on being murderous, they don't even think that, oh, maybe this rabbit I can't even carry it because it weighs like twice of me.
- [44:33]
B
So is this where the. Was this where the psychopathy aspect comes in?
- [44:36]
C
Yeah, because it's like, I feel like their desire to kill the. These bigger prey items is. It's like, clearly you're not going to eat that. It's too big. I mean, maybe, you know, they do save it for later, but it's kind of funny. I don't even know if they could fit a cape hair in their den. So it's just killing stuff because they're driven to kill.
- [45:02]
A
I mean, we've all been there.
- [45:03]
B
But that's what my house cat does. That is what my indoor, outdoor, sweet, snuggly house cat does. Yeah, but he's not hungry.
- [45:11]
C
Betty doesn't have him. Well, Betty doesn't have a 60% kill rate, though.
- [45:15]
F
It's pretty.
- [45:16]
B
No, absolutely not. But it's like he is clearly toying with these creatures and, you know, just like leaving them in the. The most twisted arrays I've ever seen in my life. Like, it's. It's like this. It haunts my. My dreams. It's bizarre. I guess that's why I was asking earlier, like, does this creature hunt kind of for sport? So I guess some of that does enter into it. If it's not, it's not even thinking about the fact that it can't actually carry, you know, the kill away. It just needs to feed the urge. Right, right.
- [45:44]
C
And, well, I mean, it's really interesting because with house cats, obviously they don't need to kill anything at all because they're getting fed their little kills and bits. But I think they have a desire to hunt, so they're driven to hunt by this. And it is a survival instinct to hunt because you can imagine if a cat didn't have that and just waited around for kibble, if it lived in the wild, it would be done. An evolutionary dead end. But yeah, I mean, it's. We can't talk to a cat and say, like, hey, do you really enjoy doing this? But. But my guess would be that they do get satisfaction from it. And even though it is an evolutionary strategy and even playing with their prey has practical reasons, like making sure it's dead and also honing their skills, I mean, they seem to love doing it. And that is kind of psychopathic, isn't it?
- [46:44]
A
Yeah, that's a good point. Especially when we consider not just cats, but a lot of similar mammals. Their juvenile phase is spent playing. And playing is really just a less fatal version of the hunting that they will instinctively practice later in life. And I can absolutely see from a neurological perspective, I can absolutely see an animal as evolved as a cat or my cats enjoying that kind of thing. It's scratching an itch. Your body, and your brain will tell you it's a pleasurable, incorrect thing to do.
- [47:20]
C
Right, right. I mean, like, we do have video games where we like to kill stuff. So makes me wonder if we might have something like that deep inside us where we kind of maybe have that killing instinct that's just been over many, many hundreds of thousands of years of cultural and societal evolution has been sort of put inside a little box and locked away. Except in the cases of serial killers.
- [47:48]
A
Right. Well, in the defense of my cats, Dr. Venkman and Mr. Jackpot shout them out here. Yeah, that's the real names. In defense of my cats, they have, at the very least, never paralyzed someone, buried them alive, and put a kitten inside of their bodies to eat them for a month.
- [48:07]
B
But wouldn't that be cute?
- [48:09]
C
Like, would a kitten bursting out of a tarantula be cute or horrible? I can't know.
- [48:17]
A
I'm on the fence. I'm honestly on the fence.
- [48:19]
B
Because if that was amazing, if that.
- [48:21]
C
Was backwards, like a tarantula bursting out of a kitten, that would obviously be horrible. But when you do it inverse, it's kind of cute. I mean, I still feel bad for the tarantula, but, you know, hey, it's a kitten.
- [48:34]
A
Oh, for sure.
- [48:36]
B
So it's pretty crazy. You mentioned Fallon, the neuroscientist. Yeah, he's actually in this show that I'm working on called Happy Face. It's like a true crime show about the Happy Face killer. And it's about this guy's daughter. And in the show, she goes and gets analyzed by this guy to try to figure out whether she herself has inherited her father's psychopathic tendencies. And it's really interesting because it's like. There's a lot of discussion around it whether it's like, is it all nature? Is it all nurture? Is it a combination of the two? Can you really figure out just from someone's brain scan whether or not this is true? It seems like a very kind of like, surface y way of figuring that stuff out because it's a combination of a lot of factors. But he actually talks a lot about psychopathy in the animal kingdom, too, and how it's actually can be a positive trait. Like, you know, animals that our psychopaths will kind of. They'll go places that other Animals won't and they will actually breed more successfully and things like that. It's. I'm not explaining it super well, but it's.
- [49:38]
C
No, that makes sense. Yeah. Because like psychopaths, one of their characteristics is risk taking and not having a fear of the consequences. So in some cases that could obviously be very bad. But for some animals, that will bring you a reward. If you are bolder and take a risk and try something novel, that lack of fear will actually give you a leg up over your competition.
- [50:05]
B
That is exactly what he was talking about. You nailed it.
- [50:08]
A
Yeah. So long as they survive to reproduce.
- [50:10]
C
Yes. Right.
- [50:12]
A
That's the Vegas odds part.
- [50:16]
C
Yeah. That's really interesting. I've actually listened to some of that podcast. I think that it's such a personal perspective on the nature versus nurture because she's. I mean, from my perspective, she's obviously a very empathetic person to be so worried about that part of her nature. But I can totally imagine how that would be that you're wondering like, well, any, any behavior you feel where it's like maybe, you know, you have schadenfreude at some time or you feel angry, you wonder like, well, is that me? Or is that like these genes inside me, puppeting me?
- [50:55]
B
Yeah. And you might not have made it far enough in the series. I don't want to spoil anything, but it does come into play, like the way she's dealt with relationships and kind of her emotional kind of closed offness, and that's a big part of it, and wondering if she can actually feel things the way, quote, unquote, normal people can. So it's something that really like, haunts her and bothers her. And at the end of the series, she kind of figures out, you know, at least as far as this guy's concerned, what she is.
- [51:21]
C
Yeah. The story of the most prolific serial killer in human history is one that's more tragic than gruesome. Harold Friedrich Shipman was a bespectacled bearded man, very ordinary and meek looking. He was a doctor, married and had four children. Not someone whom you would peg as a cold blooded killer, but he killed 218 people committing crimes undetected for 23 years. Shipman was a GP who had his own practice near Manchester, England. He targeted the most vulnerable people as his victims, his own geriatric patients. Most of his victims victims were the elderly women in his care to whom he gave lethal doses of morphine. He had a typical pattern. He would give his victims a lethal dose of diamorphine sign their death certificates and then alter their medical records to falsely indicate that their health had been in decline. Chipman was an outlier even among serial killers, as there was no clear motive for the crime. Except in one case. He altered his victim's will to make himself the beneficiary of 386,000 pounds, something the victim's daughter found to be awfully suspicious. So why did he kill? It's hard to know for certain. As a teenager, he witnessed his mother receive morphine for terminal cancer until she died of the disease. Some of the psychiatrists who've looked at his case speculate that he had a deep seated need to control other people, something influenced, but certainly not caused in total by his mother's death. Another possibility psychiatrists have proposed is that he felt a sense of relief from stress or pressure by killing his patients as he considered them a nuisance. This is the heart of what a psychopath is coldly, flippantly cruel. Oof. We need a minute to clean our brains with images of cute cats. Wait, is that a black footed cat? And is that a baby bird in its mouth? Oh no. We'll be right back.
- [53:27]
A
This episode of ridiculous history is brought to you in part by American Public University.
- [53:31]
B
You're juggling a lot. Full time job, side hustle, maybe a family.
- [53:35]
A
And now you're thinking about grad school.
- [53:37]
B
That's not crazy, that's ambitious.
- [53:40]
A
At American Public University they respect the hustle and they're built for it.
- [53:44]
B
Their flexible online master's programs are made for real life because big dreams deserve a real path.
- [53:51]
A
Learn more about APU's 40 plus career relevant master's degrees and certificates at APU Apus.
- [53:59]
B
Edu APU built for the hustle is.
- [54:03]
F
Moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, keeping you covered up and feeling less confident. Clearer skin with Bimzelix can give you a chance to say I'm back. Bimzelix Bimakizumab bkzx is prescription medication taken by injection used to treat moderate to severe plaque psoriasis in adults who are candidates for systemic therapy or phototherapy. Vimzelics can deliver transformative relief. Most people got 100% clear skin in combined clinical studies. Nearly 9 in 10 people saw 90% clearer skin and more than 6 in 10 saw 100% clear skin at 616 weeks. Start getting back to liking your reflection. Say so long to long sleeves. Love your skin again with Bemzelics only Bimzelics targets and blocks IL17A F to calm inflammation.
- [54:57]
G
Serious side effects like suicidal thoughts and behavior, infections and lowered ability to fight them. Liver problems and inflammatory bowel disease have occurred. Tell your doctor if these happen or worsen or or fevers, chills, muscle aches, or cough occur or you've had a vaccine or plan to before starting. Get checked for infections, tuberculosis and liver problems.
- [55:18]
F
Get back to clearer skin. Ask your dermatologist about Bimzelix, the first approved treatment of its kind. Learn more at b I m z e l x dot com or call 1-833-UCB- now-1 hey, what's up?
- [55:33]
H
It's Mario Lopez. Back to school is an exciting time, but it can also be overwhelming and kids may feel isol a vulnerability that human traffickers can exploit. Human trafficking doesn't always look like what you expect. Everyday moments can become opportunities for someone with bad intentions. Whether you're a parent, teacher, coach, or neighbor, Check in, ask questions, stay connected. Blue Campaign is a national awareness initiative that provides resources to help recognize suspected instances of human trafficking. Learn the signs and how to report@dhs.gov blue campaign.
- [56:12]
E
Hey everyone, Ed Helms here and hi.
- [56:15]
D
I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.
- [56:22]
E
This week on the podcast I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?
- [56:43]
G
You know what?
- [56:44]
C
I can see you as Mr. Darcy.
- [56:46]
F
You got a little Colin Firth.
- [56:48]
E
Okay, that's really sweet, I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett here. Listen to Irsay, the Audible and iHeart Audio Book Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [57:13]
C
Machiavellianism, through the scope of psychology is defined as a duplicitous manipulation with a disregard for morality, putting personal gain before any feelings of empathy. Think Littlefinger from Game of Thrones. Someone behind the scenes manipulating and pulling strings, causing destruction for others for their own gain. But fortunately, Machiavellians can only manipulate, not mind control, their victims. However, the natural world is not so merciful. We're going to discuss a Machiavellian animal that is literally pulling the strings using real life mind control. So mind control and hypnosis is often explored in popular culture, from the Manchurian Candidate to Jessica Jones. We're fascinated by the idea of thought control. So you know the Purple man and Jessica Jones. It's Such a creepy villain.
- [58:06]
A
Yeah. Yep, yep, yep.
- [58:08]
B
Doctor who.
- [58:09]
A
David Tennant.
- [58:10]
C
Ugh. He's so lovable in Doctor who. But then as he's just.
- [58:15]
A
I think so.
- [58:17]
B
He's got a good range.
- [58:18]
A
I don't trust him.
- [58:19]
B
You don't trust him as Doctor who?
- [58:20]
A
I don't trust him.
- [58:21]
B
Was it after watching Jessica Jones that you stopped trusting him as Doctor who?
- [58:24]
A
No, no, I just don't. I don't trust his mouth.
- [58:27]
B
Is it cuz he has a bunch of hearts? He's got like 10 hearts or something.
- [58:30]
A
It's really the mouth. It's that shallow.
- [58:32]
B
That's fair.
- [58:33]
A
But yeah, the, the purple man for background for Jessica Jones emits pheromones that force people to obey his suggestions.
- [58:42]
C
Right, right. Yeah. It's like he issues a command and then the person has to do it because of some kind of midichlorians or whatever. I haven't watched the whole show so I'm not sure. But yeah, that's. It's so creepy to me because like, like one of the worst possible sci fi horror scenarios where a serial killer mind controls you into digging your own grave or just following him into his like kill basement. But I have bad news for spiders again. This is a very spider unfriendly podcast. Orb weaver spiders spin these really neat, precise webs. They're actually very beautiful, the webs. The spiders are. I mean, I think they're cool, but people have hang ups about spiders for some reason. So now wasps again come into the picture and just are so mean and are such assholes. So female parasitic wasps lay an egg onto the orb weaver's abdomen. And if you've been listening, you know once a wasp lays an egg on you, you're in for a bad time. So the orb weaver is still alive and the spider becomes mind controlled by the wasp larva. And instead of spinning its beautiful lace like web, it dismantles its web and creates a cocoon for the parasitic larva to live in. And then because wasps again, they are such huge assholes, the larva will suck on the spider's juices until the spider dies. And then the larva just chucks its carcass away like a soda can and it makes itself nice and cozy in the cocoon that the spider had woven for it against its will. It's so crazy to me that you can have such a precise method of mind control that the larva not only gets to eat its victim, but makes it spin a little cradle for it as it develops and so it can stay Safe. It's just so creepy.
- [61:00]
A
So it's slave labor at that point too, right?
- [61:03]
C
A slave that you eat later. Yeah, yeah.
- [61:08]
A
So are these wasps as common as the tarantula hawk?
- [61:14]
C
They aren't as widely distributed, so the ones that we're going to be talking about are found in Japan. So researchers in Japan wanted to look into this behavior because it's so crazy how precise that mind control is. And they found that the cocoon that the zombie spider weaves for its parasite is very similar to the molting stage web that the spider, a healthy spider, will weave for itself. It's a protective cocoon designed to keep the spider safe while it molts its exoskeleton. And it's actually made out of this special ultraviolet spider silk so that birds and flying insects will avoid crashing into it. So, like, normally when a spider builds its web, it wants insects to run into it so that you can eat them. But if you're all naked and exposed and don't want something to kill you, you wrap yourself up in like this neon light of, like, warning, naked spider in here. So researchers found that there was higher levels of this substance that's called 20 ectosone, and it's the same hormone that controls molting. So in these zombified spiders, they are being mind controlled into thinking that they're going through their molting stage. It's unknown how the wasp is actually manipulating this hormone, but it's not just mind controlling it into thinking it's molting. It's actually a step above that because it's somehow commanding it to go into this, like, super molting mode where it's building an extra strong cocoon, more reinforced with greater tensile strength than the spider's normal molting cocoon. So it's like, it's beyond just like thinking it's molting. It's creating a mega safety bunker for the parasite that's planning on murdering it.
- [63:23]
A
So, wait, wait. So the downside is that you are being mind controlled and then you're going to die. But the upside is that you get super strength, or I guess the equivalent of spider superpowers.
- [63:40]
C
Well, your webbing does. So you're creating spider silk that has is extra reinforced because the molting spider silt, like in a healthy orb weaver, that's creating a cocoon for itself to molt inside that, that webbing will be reinforced and stronger to protect it. But for the parasite, it's like it's bringing out the good stuff. It's bringing out the big guns, the big webbing guns, and creating really, really strong webbing to protect the parasite. So I mean, I would think, it's not necessarily clear in the research yet, but I would think that somehow it's just being flooded with these hormones and make like this extra strong signal for it to produce the molting webbing in a way that's like it's over signaling so that the parasite benefits from the super strong cocoon. So this is what's called an ectoparasitoid. It's a parasite who will live externally on its host and eventually kill it. But some parasitic wasps will lay their eggs directly inside the spider and then the larvae eat their way out of the spider like an alien chest burster. It's really disgusting.
- [65:01]
A
And just for a safety check here, there are no wasps that do this to people, right?
- [65:06]
C
No.
- [65:07]
A
At least they're none big enough to do it yet.
- [65:09]
C
Okay, not yet. Not that we know.
- [65:13]
B
I can't help but think of whenever I, whenever I think about this Paris, parasitic stuff, doing things to animals to make them act against their own self interest, I always think of that. Parasitic fungus.
- [65:24]
C
Yeah.
- [65:24]
B
Like erupts out of ants heads.
- [65:26]
C
Cordyceps.
- [65:28]
B
Right.
- [65:28]
C
Yeah.
- [65:29]
B
Before it does that, doesn't it also do some kind of crazy mind control that makes them do something that like benefits the fungus itself?
- [65:36]
A
But they have to crawl.
- [65:37]
C
Yeah.
- [65:37]
A
They seek altitude.
- [65:39]
C
Yeah. It crawls up a stalk, like a plant stalk, and then it's final. The ant final act is to cling onto the stock with its mandibles. So its brain is being so manipulated by the fungus that it's like clinging on to the stalk with its mandibles. And then that's really good for the fungus as it grows out of its head and then produces spores because it's got a solid anchored down onto the, onto the plant or the branch.
- [66:09]
A
You know, one that, while we're speaking of parasites, one that worries me as a cat owner is Toxoplasma gondii.
- [66:17]
B
Yeah, we all probably have that. That's why we're nice to cats. I don't know.
- [66:21]
A
It's a single celled parasite. Yeah.
- [66:24]
C
So yeah, you probably, if you clean up the cat's litter box and you don't obsessively wash your hands every single time, you might have it. And I mean, there's actually a pretty good chance, like if you've owned cats over a long period of time, it's generally not a problem for humans, unless you're pregnant, in which it can cause birth defects or miscarriage. And the other thing it's been linked to is potentially triggering schizophrenia. That's a very, very rare, almost just like it's not going to happen to you. But it is a documented effect. So they can. A cat can literally cause schizophrenia in a person via the T. Gondii. So I think we need to talk more about how spiders are terribly mistreated in nature. So there's another mind controlling Machiavellian manipulator called the spider fly. And it's a fly that injects itself into the spider's abdomen, lodging itself near the lung. And here's the crazy thing, it can remain there for years while it completes its development. So once it's finally ready to molt and emerge from the spider, it controls the spider into spinning a protective cocoon, just like we were talking about with the orb weavers. Then it eats the spider from the inside out, which is just the worst. But at least these ones are kind of cute and fuzzy. So unlike the wasps, the spider fly, they're sort of like these little bumbling cuties. Entomologist FR Cole describes them as having a floating sort of flight, rather undulating and uncertain. It has the habit of buzzing around in circles when it falls over on its back on a smooth surface, often doing this for some time before it can regain its feet. Most of the time it is making a high, thin humming sound. So it's just like it's this dopey kind of like dorky little fly, but then it's really horrifying and living inside a spider for years before killing it.
- [68:42]
A
And this isn't like a marsupial situation. You know how like a joey can enter and exit the pouch of the parent.
- [68:50]
B
It's more of like a chestburster kind of situation.
- [68:52]
A
Yeah, like the fly can't fly back in and out.
- [68:55]
C
It's a chest burster situation, but with like a cute little like Elmo esque Muppet character. Like if an alien's just like the chest burster bursts out and it's like it's Elmo.
- [69:11]
A
I'm kind of sold.
- [69:12]
B
It reminds me of this terrifying toy my girlfriend got my daughter for her birthday the other day. It's like a tiny puppy that lives inside a croissant and you turn the croissant inside out and then the tiny puppy emerges. But it's really unclear, like the scale of it. Like, is it, is it meant to be a tiny puppy or a giant croissant? They really don't make that Clear. But yeah, that's not very sciencey at all. But that's what I'm picturing this whole time. I'm sorry.
- [69:36]
C
I don't know why toys have gotten weird.
- [69:39]
B
Really, have they? Really have.
- [69:43]
C
You might be comforting yourself with the knowledge that you're not a spider and you're in no danger of a fly hiding out in your lungs. But I want to tell you the story of the human version of a spider fly. A secret hideaway killer that will have you checking your crawl spaces tonight. The Denver Spider man doesn't really deserve his name. His real name was Theodore Edward Coneys. He was a drifter who in 1941 decided he'd settle down. But there was a little problem. The home he chose was already occupied. Coneys found a trap door in a closet that led to a tiny attic cubby hole. He went undiscovered for five weeks, leaving his hidey hole to occasionally steal food out of the fridge. One day, the homeowner, 73 year old Philip Peters, discovered Coneys as he was foraging for food. Philip whacked Coneys with his cane and Coney's response responded by brutally murdering Philip, bludgeoning him to death with an iron stove stoker. Police investigated the murder, but they found no signs of a break in. And though they found the door to the attic, they didn't explore it. They thought it was too small for any human person to fit through. After the murder, the victim's wife and the housekeeper reported hearing strange noises in the night and they believed the house was haunted. So they moved out and Kony's presence remained unknown. He stayed in the vacant house until 1942 when police came to make a routine check and they heard noises coming from the second floor. They followed the noise and saw a pair of legs vanishing into the trapdoor. They grabbed them before he could disappear. He was tried and convicted for Philip's murder and spent his life in imprisonment. Although really, was that a punishment? His cell probably felt like a sprawling estate compared to the tiny nook he hid away in. So do you have any crawl spaces in your home? No reason. Just curious. Alright, so thank you guys for coming on. This is really fun. Do you guys have anything to plug?
- [71:54]
A
Yeah. Thank you so much for having us, Katie. Yeah, you can catch Noel and myself on our show Ridiculous History. We come out twice a week. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook.
- [72:08]
B
All the podcast places mainly.
- [72:10]
C
Right. Yeah.
- [72:11]
B
What's the show? We kind of just go into some of the weirder little off the beaten path kind of History nuggets. It's a very kind of snackable show. Episodes are like 30 to 40 minutes. Very bingeable. It's a lot of fun to do. And we also do another show called Stuff they don't want you to know where we take an open minded approach to conspiracy theories.
- [72:31]
A
I would say we take a critical thinking approach to conspiracy that is much.
- [72:34]
B
Better and more accurate.
- [72:36]
A
So you can, you can find us on those shows. You can find us all over the regular Internet places and wherever you find your favorite shows. You can also, when you find us on the social media stuff, just hit us up directly. We're, we're pretty approachable, unlike some of the animals that we met in today's episode. We don't bite you.
- [72:57]
B
You guys aren't wasps or, or, or. Yeah, or inject you with paralyzing venom.
- [73:02]
C
Well, that's polite of you guys.
- [73:03]
B
You know, we try to be affable. That's sort of like our, that that's our adaptation is, is like just super affability.
- [73:10]
A
Yeah. My producers are always like, ben, stop. Stop injecting people with paralytic agents.
- [73:16]
B
That was before my time.
- [73:18]
C
So you can find me at KatieGolden or Pro Bird Rights, where it's revealed I'm actually a bird. And you can check out the podcast every Wednesday on iTunes or the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts and just hit us up on Facebook, Twitter and our website is creaturefuturepod.com and thanks to the space Cossacks for letting us use their wonderful song Exo Lumina.
- [73:50]
B
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
- [73:57]
D
Hey, audiobook lovers, I'm Kalpen.
- [73:59]
E
I'm Ed Helms.
- [74:00]
D
Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Earsick, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.
- [74:09]
E
Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from Audible.
- [74:18]
D
Listen to Hearsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow earsay and start listening on the free iHeartradio app today.
- [74:27]
B
Hey, what's up?
- [74:28]
H
It's Mario Lopez. Back to school is an exciting time, but it can also be overwhelming and kids may feel isolated, a vulnerability that human traffickers can exploit. Human trafficking doesn't always look like what you expect. Everyday moments can become opportunities for someone with bad intentions. Whether you're a parent teacher, coach or neighbor. Check in, ask questions, Stay connected. Blue Campaign is a national awareness initiative that provides resources to help recognize suspected instances of human trafficking. Learn the signs and how to report@dhs.gov blue campaign.
- [75:06]
E
Get ready to power up your play with Nintendo Switch 2. Power up the visuals with 4K support and a bigger, more vivid screen. Power up the fun with exclusive new games like Mario Kart World and Donkey Kong Bonanza, oh banana, the Nintendo Switch 2 all together, anytime anywhere. Games rated E to E10 plus games and systems sold separately. Compatible TV required for 4K display.
- [75:35]
D
Wednesdays on BET an all new episode of 106 in Sports from executive producers LeBron James and Maverick Carter. Ashley, Nicole Moss and Cam Newton break down top moments in sports, culture and Entertainment. Check out 106 in sports on BET and next day on BET.
- [75:51]
C
This is an iHeart podcast.