CLASSIC: Did Robert E. Lee hate Confederate Memorials?

Summary

Ridiculous History – “CLASSIC: Did Robert E. Lee hate Confederate Memorials?”

Podcast by iHeartPodcasts
Release Date: April 4, 2026
Hosts: Ben Bowlin & Noel Brown

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Episode Overview

This “classic” Ridiculous History episode takes on the complicated legacy of Confederate General Robert E. Lee, specifically exploring the claim that Lee disliked or actively opposed Confederate war memorials. Hosts Ben and Noel weave together Lee’s biography, the emergence of “Lost Cause” mythology, and traces the roots and ramifications of Civil War monuments in the U.S. With their trademark wit and candor, the hosts also connect historical context to present-day debates over statuary and memory in America.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Civil War: Context & Lee’s Biography

[03:06–11:18]

• Civil War as the “most heavily documented, researched war in U.S. history” (Ben, 04:06).
• Lee’s background: Born 1807 in Virginia, son of "Light Horse Harry" Lee, comes from a storied military family.
• Attends West Point, emerges as a decorated officer but also as a Southern plantation slave owner.
• Myth-busting:
  • Lee presented himself postwar as having always favored emancipation, even testifying before Congress to that effect.
  • Reality: He owned/managed hundreds of enslaved people for over 30 years, with accounts highlighting his cruelty as a slaveholder.
• Lee’s military career: Suppressed John Brown’s raid at Harpers Ferry, offered command of the Union army by Lincoln but declined—“I cannot make war against my own people.”—before joining the Confederacy.

2. Lee After the War and the Birth of the Memorial Debate

[11:18–13:04]; [15:44–18:59]

• After surrendering at Appomattox (April 9, 1865), Lee goes on parole and becomes president of Washington College.
• Myth-making kicks in quickly after Lee’s death: “He was romanticized...people in the South wanted to build statues to him.” (Ben, 12:47)
• Both hosts stress that these memorials fueled toxic, romanticized narratives around the Confederacy.
• Lee’s own stance: Sought national healing, not ongoing division—opposing the memorialization of the war and Confederate leaders.

3. Lee’s Direct Statements Against Confederate Monuments

[15:48]–[19:39]

• Referencing a PBS article (Lisa Desjardins), the hosts share evidence of Lee’s opposition:
  • “He stressed this idea that it was very important for a nation that had been torn by war to move past it. And that includes not memorializing it with any kind of symbolism or militant monument remembrances.” (Noel, 15:48)
• Quoting Lee (on Gettysburg memorials, 1869):
  • “I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.” — Robert E. Lee ([16:38])
• Ben stresses that Lee feared memorials would “continue to sow those seeds of division and hostility between the winning and the losing sides.” (Noel paraphrasing, 17:03)

Additional Lee Quote (on Stonewall Jackson monument):

• “My conviction is that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the south, the attempt in the present condition of the country would have the effect of retarding instead of accelerating its accomplishment, of continuing, if not adding to the difficulties under which the Southern people labor.” — Robert E. Lee ([19:02])

4. Contemporary Resonance & Monument Debates

[19:39–24:33]

• Fast-forwards to recent events: The 2017 Charlottesville rally, organized in opposition to the proposed removal of a Charlottesville Lee statue, led to violence and national debate.
• Noel notes the “division” memorials still create. Ben references the Southern Poverty Law Center’s count of 750+ Civil War monuments across the U.S.
• The hosts discuss public polling—62% in a 2017 poll thought such monuments should stay as historical symbols; opinions vary and are deeply rooted.

The Nuance:

• Lee also rejected Union/Civil War memorialization. He advocated leaving battlefields peaceful: farms, towns—not sites of division.
  • “He really wanted the battlefields to be erased...rather than memorializing them, he saw it as a way to speed reconciliation.” (Ben, 23:27)
• Lee was neither particularly repentant (“wholly penitent”) nor proud—he believed in moving forward instead of “keeping open the sores.” (Ben, 24:14)

5. The Confederados: A Memorial Abroad

[24:33–26:05]

• Shift to the story of 10,000–20,000 Confederate Americans who fled to Brazil (founding Americana, São Paulo) after the war.
• The town’s annual festival reflects Confederate cultural legacy, but, as hosts note, “for them, not about commemorating a regime… just part of their culture.” (Ben, 25:32)

6. Fact-Checking Lee's Stance & Lasting Ambiguity

[26:05–26:51]

• Citing Snopes, they declare Lee’s opposition to Confederate monuments is “mixture of true and false”:
  • True for Stonewall Jackson, some others; less clear how broad or consistent his opposition was.
  • “His opposition to Confederate monuments was probably more pronounced than his opposition to Civil War monuments in general, but it was still against [them] overall.” (Noel, 26:51)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ben (04:06): “From 4-12-1861 to 4-9-1865, this nation was embroiled in what would later become the most heavily documented researched war in US history.”
• Noel (03:54): “It was real mean spirited, man. Brothers were fighting brothers. Everyone was at each other's throats, the north and the south and why can't we all just get along? And it wasn't any fun, Ben. Wasn't any fun.”
• Ben (16:38, quoting Lee): “I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”
• Ben (19:02, quoting Lee): “As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated...the attempt...would have the effect of retarding instead of accelerating its accomplishment, of continuing, if not adding to the difficulties under which the Southern people labor.”
• Noel (19:39): “This actually was so divisive, it made the news really recently because of...Charlottesville, Virginia, in 2017, where...an alt-right or a white supremacist group descended on the small college town because of a proposal to pull down a statue of General Robert E. Lee.”
• Ben (21:28): “Faulkner was right when he said the past is not over. It's not even past. And I'm paraphrasing there, but this is an important point...”
• Ben (23:27): “He really wanted the battlefields to be erased, to turn into farms, to turn into towns and other peaceful areas of the nation. Rather than memorializing them, he saw it as a way to speed reconciliation.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:06–11:18 – Robert E. Lee’s biography, myth busting about Lee and slavery
• 11:18–13:04 – Lee after the war, rise of memorialization and “Lost Cause” mythology
• 15:44–18:59 – Primary source deep dive: Lee’s opposition to memorialization, direct quotes
• 19:39–22:50 – Modern monument debates: Charlottesville, public opinion, Faulkner reference
• 23:27–24:33 – Nuances: Lee’s rejection of both Confederate and Union monuments
• 24:33–26:05 – Confederados: Confederate immigrants to Brazil and their legacy
• 26:05–26:51 – Snopes verdict and final assessment of Lee’s record

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Language, Tone, and Approach

• Casual, self-aware, deeply humanizing tone: the hosts punctuate weightier history with pop-culture asides and dry humor (“Was it ‘Eichhorn’? Exactly.” [05:24])
• Openly invite audience feedback and reflection (“Where do you fall in this debate?” [27:27]).
• Willingness to confront uncomfortable truths, especially about myth vs. documented history.
• Light sarcasm and cultural referencing soften—but don’t diminish—the heavy subject matter.

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Concluding Thoughts

The hosts ultimately find that, based on both Lee’s writings and contemporary sources, Robert E. Lee indeed objected to the erection of Confederate monuments as well as Civil War memorials more broadly, viewing them as obstacles to national unity and reconciliation. However, the breadth and authenticity of his opposition are complex and have been variably interpreted through time, sometimes to serve opposing political ends. The episode ends noting the intricate legacies of historical memory, with the monument debate still echoing in American society today.

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Additional Segments

• Listener Mail: Entertaining detour into topics like “Forgottonia” and “Ordeal by Cake” ([28:07–30:50])
• Memorable Banter: Jokes about being memorialized themselves, and running podcast bits about their producer and “The Quizzter.”

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For further exploration, hosts recommend biographies (e.g., Jonathan Horn's The Man Who Would Not Be Washington), PBS articles, and previous Ridiculous History episodes on related topics.

Transcript

[Ben]

Welcome to this week's classic episode. Fellow ridiculous historians, we are, as we record, in the great metropolis of Atlanta, Georgia. And Atlanta, Georgia, like a lot of the southern United States, has a bit of a history to it.

[Noel]

Yeah, yeah. Not, not. Not the best history. From 1861 to 1865, the USA was participating in a little something called the War between the States. More than a century later, it remains America's bloodiest war. And it happened right here.

[Ben]

Oh, man.

[Noel]

Among other places. But, you know, it was a pretty central location to the Civil War.

[Ben]

And after the conflict concluded and the Union won, the Confederate army surrendered. General Robert E. Lee survived, and he found himself constantly approached, getting all these cold calls to endorse different memorials or statues or buildings and so on. And here's the thing. He hated it.

[Noel]

Yeah, let's find out why.

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[Ben]

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[Noel]

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[Ben]

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[Ben]

Liberty. Ridiculous history is a production of iHeartRadio. Casey, can we get a. A little bit of a kind of a Gettysburg vibe music, you know, like with the drums. Flute. There we go.

[Noel]

Feel that cadence. Sounds like a 90s song. Like, like. Like jumper by third eye blind or

[Ben]

something, you know, from centuries earlier.

[Noel]

Yeah, yeah, totally. It's those. It's those marching drums that really get my. Get my feels up.

[Ben]

And speaking of feels, thanks for tuning in. We hope that you are feeling great. This is ridiculous history. My name is Ben.

[Noel]

My name is Noel.

[Ben]

And the man on the ones and twos as always, give it up for our super producer, Casey Pegram. Today's episode does concern Some heavy history that we have to bring into the story but we don't have to get too too in the weeds about it. You've heard this story a thousand thousand times. One whether or not you live in the US It's a story of brother against brother, north and South, a Nation divided. The U.S. civil War. Noel, how would you describe the U.S. civil War to someone who had never heard of it?

[Noel]

It was real mean spirited man. Brothers were fighting brothers. Everyone was at each other's throats, the north and the south and why can't we all just get along? And it wasn't any fun Ben. Wasn't any fun.

[Ben]

From 4-12-1861 to 4-9-1865, this nation was embroiled in what would later become the most heavily documented researched war in US history.

[Noel]

Yeah, that too.

[Ben]

So I think all of those facts together are a pretty good high level look at this conflict. But the ramifications of the U.S. civil War carry on in the United States today. Not just in the southern part of the continent, but in the policies and the legislation created on a state and federal level. The war created several larger than life historical figures. People who were and are enormously influential here in 2019. Abraham Lincoln for instance. Right. The guy who brought everybody back together, hell or high water. And today's episode is about another one of those giants, a man named Robert E. Lee, or we can only imagine Bobby Lee to his friends.

[Noel]

Yeah, or maybe some people called him Eddie because his middle name, the E is for Edward.

[Ben]

Yeah, I know that was eating a

[Noel]

lot of you up inside not knowing what that E stood for.

[Ben]

Was it Eichhorn?

[Noel]

Exactly.

[Ben]

So what do we know about Robert E. Lee?

[Noel]

Well like okay, so he was born January 19th of 1807, passed away October 12th of 1870 and he was a decorated general. He was born in a plantation in Westmoreland County, Virginia and he came from a military family. His father's name was Major General Henry Lee iii had a pretty dope nickname as it with Light Horse Harry. And he was also the Governor of Virginia. And he had Robert E. With his second wife Ann Hill Carter. And he was raised in this very regimented military family and he carried on that legacy with a career in military engineering. His father actually had some difficulties. He ended up in debtors prison due to some financial troubles he had while doing business in the West Indies. But Robert was left undeterred and he got himself a pretty choice spot at the prestigious military academy at West Point where he graduated second in his class in 18. But it would Be some time before Lee actually ever saw battle. It wasn't until 1846 in the war with Mexico that he was able to really get his feet wet, his hands bloody, whatever the euphemism you'd like to use under General Winfield Scott's brigade or whatever you want, regiment. I don't know. He became a pretty well respected soldier for bravery and he came out of that, that situation with the rank of colonel and then was appointed as superintendent at West Point where he served from 1852 to 1855. But let's remember where this story starts. He was at heart a Southern gentleman, raised on a Southern plantation and was also a slave owner. And reports are that he was quite cruel to his slaves, in fact. And in a biography, brief biography on battlefields.org the writer points out that during his tenure as the superintendent, which is like the head honcho of West Point, he would be overseeing cadets who would serve on both sides of the Civil War, both under him and in opposition to his forces. Because as we know, he went on to become the general of the Confederate forces, which were the forces that supported slavery.

[Ben]

Right. One thing that people forgot pretty quickly after the close of the Civil War and Robert E. Lee's death is that he was by no means a perfect man. There are a lot of myths about Lee that are still circulating today, one of those being that he was opposed to slavery. After the Civil War, he did attempt to present himself as always having been opposed to slavery. In an interview shortly after his surrender at Appomattox, he said that the best men of the south have been eager to do away with the abominable practice. In 1866, he testified before the Joint Committee on Reconstruction that he had always been in favor of emancipation, gradual emancipation. However, he owned or managed slaves for over 30 years. In 1861, in April, he oversaw roughly 200 individuals.

[Noel]

Not to mention that there were reports, maybe we have 100% confirmation, but that he wasn't a particularly kind slave owner, that he may have been been much more on the cruel and brutal side.

[Ben]

We give this just to lay out those facts. These are very, very important things. However, his personal or non military life aside, he was known as one of the finest officers in the U.S. army. In 1859, he was called upon to suppress the raid at Harpers Ferry led by the abolitionist John Brown, and was so successful that in 1861, Abraham Lincoln offered him command of the full federal forces. Not only did he decline, he resigned from the army when the state of Virginia seceded from the Union on April 17 of the same year. His reasoning being, I cannot make war against my own people. And he didn't just resign. He didn't go, you know, hang out on a farm somewhere. Instead, he joined up with the newly formed Confederate army as a general. So his first military engagement is at a place called Cheat Mountain, Virginia. Well, now it's West Virginia, but back then it was just Cheat mountain, Virginia. On September 11, 1861. It was a victory for the Union, but he still weathered the storm and was also a military advisor to President Jefferson Davis until 1862. And there are so many fantastic stories, books, biographies, podcasts, research papers and so on written about the Civil War that we would helpfully refer you to any one of those. Let's fast forward to to the end of the Civil War, because this is when our story really begins to take shape. So we said that the Civil war ended in 1865, right?

[Noel]

Yeah, it's true. Because upon defeat, Robert E. Lee had to or didn't have to. But he seemed to acquiesce to swearing allegiance to the Union and to admitting defeat and to not being a particularly sore sport about the whole affair, because he was, you know, in fact, a professional military man, and he understood the rules of engagement, and he wasn't going to pitch a fit about it. And he kind of went quietly.

[Ben]

Yeah. On April 9, 1865, Lee surrendered the Confederate army to Ulysses S. Grant at the Appomattox Courthouse. This ended the Civil War. I mean, effectively, he went home on parole. His life went on for about five years after the Civil War's end. And he eventually became president of Washington College right before his death on October 12th in 1870. There's an interesting timeline here. Right. So he only lives about five years after the close of the Civil War. And similar to the way that myths sprang up about George Washington, you know, even while he was alive and certainly immediately after his death. We see the same thing in certain parts of American culture with Robert E. Lee. He was romanticized. He was memorialized. You could say people in the south wanted to build statues to him. They wanted to wave the stars and bars and talk about, I don't know, the south rising again. Right?

[Noel]

Yeah. And it ends up.

[Ben]

I mean, that's what they say.

[Noel]

No, absolutely. But it ends up feeding into some pretty toxic romanticizations of these ideas.

[Ben]

Oh, yeah. Let's have no illusions about that.

[Noel]

It's bad stuff. And we will get into how that plays into more contemporary history in just a little bit.

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[Noel]

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[Ben]

Liberty.

[Noel]

In an article on PBS.org by Lisa, and I'm gonna go ahead and really French this one up. Lisa Desjardins, which I may be over pronouncing it, but I'd rather over pronounce than under pronounce. She mentions how Lee was pretty clear about the way he felt about that kind of romanticization well before his death, and that he stressed this idea that it was very important for a had been torn by war to move past it. And that includes not memorializing it with any kind of symbolism or militant monument remembrances, things like that, that would continue to cause. To sort of sew the seeds of separatism. And there's a really great quote from him that you think you can kind of take as at face value, and then we can kind of dissect it a little bit, too. Ben, do you want to read that one?

[Ben]

Sure. This quote comes from a piece of correspondence about a proposed memorial at gettysburg written in 1869. I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.

[Noel]

Very well spoken, sir.

[Ben]

That's not me. That's Robert E. Lee. I don't know where we got the audio.

[Noel]

I felt as though he floated right into the room. Yeah, it's true. And that has led many to believe that what he meant was any of these Confederate monuments were counter to his idea of how it would be best to deal with the fallout from a war like that, that by having these romanticizations or any kind of these big reminders staring you in the face, whatever side you were on, it's not a good thing. And it would continue to sow those seeds of division and hostility between the winning and the losing sides.

[Ben]

Yeah. There's a great biography of Lee by a fellow named Jonathan Horn, the Man who Would Not Be Washington. Fantastic title. And he points out that Lee himself, Robert E. Lee himself, after the Civil War, in those five years before his death, he opposed monuments, but specifically opposed Confederate War monuments. And in his correspondence, we have multiple documented reasons for his opinion. So in one case, he questioned the cost of a monument to Stonewall Jackson, and he finds some other ways to approach this issue. But his underlying prime objection to this is that we empower a cause or an idea when we remember it. That's why so many civilizations work so ardently in the past and in the modern day to erase things from your history books. In his mind, the war had ended, the nation was won again, and it needed to look forward to the future rather than celebrating this social upheaval and then potentially leading to further discord down the road.

[Noel]

Yeah, he puts it pretty eloquently in this quote that we also have tape

[Ben]

of as regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated. My conviction is that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the south, the attempt in the present condition of the country would have the effect of retarding instead of accelerating its accomplishment, of continuing, if not adding to the difficulties under which the Southern people labor. We do want to point out there that he is using a word that could be seen as offensive, but he's using it in the correct way. You know what I mean? He's meaning to stymie the progress of the country.

[Noel]

Yeah, indeed. And there's a. This actually was so divisive, it made the news really recently because of the senseless and bizarre and unfortunate attack, for lack of a better term, that happened in Charlottesville, Virginia in 2017, where in fact, an alt right or a white supremacist group descended on the small college town because of a proposal to pull down a statue of General Robert E. Lee. And there was violence. A young woman was hit and killed by a car. And at the time, it was just utter chaos. It became a very divisive political issue. Even before this event, it became a very divisive political issue. The idea of, should we erase these marks of the past because of what they represent, which, you know, you could argue is racism, is division, is pro slavery attitudes. Some Southerners, old school Southerners, say it's their heritage or represents, you know, just the history of the south and that taking it down is disrespectful to them. So say what you will, our president had this to say about it. Sad to see the history and culture of our great country being ripped apart with the removal of our beautiful statues and monuments.

[Ben]

You know, Noel, I. I noticed you didn't do a Trump voice for that, and I think that's. I think that's a good call. Because I gotta tell you, I've been looking around and I just cannot for the life of me find a good impression of that guy. You know what I mean? Like, the Alec Baldwin one is not that great.

[Noel]

Well, that's sort of what makes his funny, right? Is that it's like it's, it's, it's. Yeah, it's so out of left field that it just kind of is, like, cartoonish, as you would say, right?

[Ben]

Yeah. Even Stephen Colbert. Love the guys. Just. I don't know, maybe it's a tough voice. They're the pros. Let us know if you. If you've seen a decent impression. And I'm not saying anything further than that. It's just usually when someone's president, there's like, one person, often from Saturday Night Live, who does the best impression of that president. And it looks like we're still looking for one. No offense to any Alec Baldwin fans in the House, but your point. But your point stands, Noel, and it goes back to what I was saying at the top. We see these ramifications carry on to the modern day. Faulkner was right when he said the past is not over. It's not even past. And I'm paraphrasing there, but this is an important point, I believe now, currently, as it stands, there's somewhere around 750 monuments, all told across the US that are their memorials for the Civil War. And that's according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. People who want these removed say that the continued presence of the monuments confers undue dignity on a faction that fought to preserve slavery and white supremacy. So they agree with Robert E. Lee, but perhaps for different reasons.

[Noel]

Yeah. And not to mention that In August of 2017, PBS NewsHour and NPR, an Amerist poll found that 62% of people responding to the poll thought that monuments such as this should stay in place as historical symbols. So it is a tricky argument because on the one hand, it's a form of revisionist history. On the other hand, you know, real estate is scarce. Maybe we should devote it to some more positive things, you know what I mean? Like, as opposed to something that represents things that are painful to others who have family members that possibly even lived through it or were connected to it more directly.

[Ben]

And one thing that a lot of people miss when they hear the headline, robert E. Lee Opposed Confederate Memorials is that he also opposed Civil War memorials in general. He turned down the Gettysburg Battlefield Memorial association back in 1869. He really wanted the battlefields to be erased, to turn into farms, to turn into towns and other peaceful areas of the nation. Rather than memorializing them, he saw it as a way to speed reconciliation. So it's not as if he was wholly repentant, you know what I mean? Nor was he penitent. He said all of the memorials would be better if they were left unbuilt.

[Noel]

That's Right, Yep. For sure. And this is one of those quotes, the original one, that we said about the sores of division or whatever, that you can very easily take out of context and use to support arguments on either side. Right.

[Ben]

And this is where our tale draws to a close. But we didn't want to end on too somber a note because there is a very specific type of unorthodox Confederate memorial that will never be removed from the U.S. because it doesn't exist in the U.S. we are talking about the Confederados, the 10,000 to 20,000 Confederate American refugees who fled to Brazil, mainly in Sao Paulo, and then lived, reproduced, had descendants. They founded the city Americana, Brazil. We did this on a previous episode.

[Noel]

We totally did, yeah. It was that obsession with the Confederate south in the very same way that they romanticized, in an almost weird kind of like alternate reality, man in the High Castle, fictionalized kind of way, as though if they had won the war, what it would be like. That's a weird one.

[Ben]

And you can see the residents of Americana Sao Paulo talking about how much they enjoy the festival they hold every year and how it's for them, not about commemorating a regime. Right. It's not about commemorating racism or slavery or all the things tied to the Civil War. It's just, for them, part of their culture. Very interesting town. So if you've ever been there, check it out and let us know what you find.

[Noel]

And you know, in fact, snopes.com, the famous fact checking site, decided to weigh in on this as well, with the question, was Robert E. Lee opposed to Confederate monuments? And they classify it as a mixture of true and false, with the truth being supporting the validity of those quotes that he expressed opposition to Civil War monuments memorials, including the Stonewall Jackson one specifically. But what isn't clear is the breadth of this position. His opposition to Confederate monuments was probably more pronounced than his opposition towards Civil War monuments in general, but it was still against.

[Ben]

Against them overall.

[Noel]

That's right. That's right. But it is one of those mixed, mixed Snopes responses. And then the continuation of President Trump's quote from earlier. The tweet was this. He says, you can't change history, but you can learn from it. Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson. Who's next? Washington? Jefferson. So foolish. Also, the beauty that is being taken out of our cities, towns and parks will be greatly missed and never able to be completely replaced. So we can see where our boy Donnie Trump falls in that debate.

[Ben]

I'd also like to hear from you, fellow Ridiculous Historians, where do you fall in this debate? And speaking of hearing from you, what do you guys say we do a little listener mail?

[Noel]

I think that's a smashing idea. Did you see that? One listener wrote in and said that the listener mail sound effect fact fills them with abject terror.

[T Mobile Spokesperson]

I saw that.

[Ben]

Yeah. Yes.

[Noel]

Yeah. Interesting.

[Ben]

Was that on Facebook?

[Noel]

It was on Facebook. I think you can.

[Ben]

You can see what we're talking about if you join forces with us on Facebook at Ridiculous Historians. Just getting that plug out of the way right now.

[Noel]

So.

[Ben]

So what do we got? You got. You got any hot takes, Noel?

[Noel]

I do. I got one from Hannah. It says, hello, I was recently listening to your When West Virginia begged for foreign aid from the USSR and I was inspired to inquire about a podcast on Forgatonia. Forgatonia is a west central section of Illinois that was forgotten when highways were expanded west and there was an attempt to secede from the United States. This section of Illinois felt cut off and decided to bring attention to it with this major move. I have lived in this area my whole life. Huh. And it amazes me how few people know of it. Please consider it for a future podcast. Thanks, Hannah. Consider it considered, Hannah.

[Ben]

Yes, consider it considered. I had not heard of Forgottonia before receiving your letter, Hannah, and I think it's fascinating. I actually have been reading a lot about it off air and I hope that there are license plates, I hope that there are stickers, I hope that you can send mail with Forgottonia stamps. But I look forward to learning more. And before we for Gittonia this segment, let's have one more listener mail. Rebecca C. Writes to us with an email entitled Ordeal by Cake. Hello, says Rebecca. I have been listening to this podcast since it started and it has become one of my favorites. Ah, thanks. In parentheses, she says, I love the quizzter. We have complicated feelings there. The war Began by the dog was timely as it came up in trivia last night or the guy who sets questions. Also, listen to the show. When you discussed undergoing trials, I was reminded of Ordeal by Cake, where the person would have to eat a dry cake without choking after swearing to something. The idea being that if you were lying, guilt would stick in your throat. Just a thought. It might leave less scars than other ordeals. Rebecca, thanks for writing. I had never heard of the trial by Cake. The closest I remember hearing is that old stand up bit about cake or death. Right, right. An Eddie Izzard bit. I just got confirmed off air by Casey, but I don't know, I would give it a try. It sounds kind of like an old school version of the Saltine challenge. Have you heard of that?

[Noel]

Is that where you eat a bunch of saltines? Is it like the Cinnamon challenge?

[Ben]

Yeah, pretty much. So I don't know if that's a way to set legal precedent, but I'd be interested in trying it. I wonder if we could institute. Do you think HR would let us get away with.

[Noel]

I mean, I say we. What Is it better to ask for forgiveness than permission?

[Ben]

Especially when Cake is involved.

[Noel]

Oh, man. Sign me up. I'll try anything once, especially if Cake is involved.

[Ben]

So thank you so much, Hannah. Thank you, Rebecca, and thank you for listening. This concludes listener mail, but not our show. Tune in because we have more ridiculous stuff on the way, as always. In the meantime, you can learn more about ridiculous biz, strange exploits throughout the story of human civilization on our Facebook page, Ridiculous Historians, our Instagram, or our Twitter. You can also follow our own personal adventures on Instagram, where. I am En Boland.

[Noel]

I am Brionicinsider. Big thanks to super producer Casey Pegram, Alex Williams, who composed our theme. Research associate Gabe Luzier. And of course, I think we're due for a Christopher Haciotes appearance. And possibly a creepy drop in from our arch nemesis, the Quizzter, Jonathan Strickland.

[Ben]

I have ptsd, my friend. Podcast trauma. Traumatic stress disorder. Cause this is gonna sound weird, but there are. I know that it sounds like a bit sometimes, but there are genuinely times when we don't know that he's coming. It's strange. It's a bizarre situation and we've just been rolling with it.

[Noel]

It's also weird when he just kind of drops down from the ceiling and then his head turns around 360de and he kind of makes a weird cackling sound. This is a very guttural, like, from the throat kind of situation.

[Ben]

Yeah, this is not a bit. Sometimes he doesn't even make it to the mic. He just drops in Exorcist style and then like skitters back up into the ceiling.

[Noel]

It is quite traumatic for all concerned. But at the same time, I miss

[Ben]

the little guy, you know, I'd like a statue. I gotta tell you, I was conflicted with this. Cause I see Robert E. Lee's point about not wanting to memorialize this. This intense, divisive period in time. But also, wouldn't it be kind of cool to have a statue of your. Of yourself? I mean, it's so. It's such a Kanye west move, you know? Casey would you get a statue of yourself? Probably not. Someone else would have to build it, right? At the very least.

[Noel]

But I'll tell you what you will get. Maybe not a statue, but some kind of apparel I think may be forthcoming.

[Ben]

Oh, oh, oh.

[Noel]

Stay tuned. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.