CLASSIC: Idiomatic For The People, Part I

Summary

Ridiculous History – CLASSIC: Idiomatic for the People, Part I

Date: December 6, 2025
Hosts: Ben Bowlin, Noel Brown
Guest: Rowan Newby

---

Episode Overview

This “Idiomatic for the People” episode features hosts Ben and Noel joined by their friend, podcaster, and musician Rowan Newby. Together, they dive deep into the origins, meanings, and quirks of some of the English language’s most peculiar idioms and figures of speech. Each participant brings idioms to the table, discussing their etymology, how their meanings have shifted over time, and reflecting on the sometimes-surprising (and occasionally grisly) histories behind the phrases we use every day. Along the way, the group blends humor, personal anecdotes, and classic friendship banter.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction and Format

• The trio embarks on a “ridiculous” exploration of idioms, both familiar and obscure.
• The recurring theme: Everyday expressions often have unexpected, even bizarre origins.
• Rowan Newby is introduced as a Renaissance man: accomplished musician, producer, and host of the podcast “Pitches,” where guests pitch “horrible” ideas.

  “Sometimes it’s almost scary when we stumble upon a good idea because we don’t know what to do...” — Rowan Newby (07:13)

2. Idiom #1: “Butter Someone Up”

Presenter: Ben

• Definition: To flatter someone, usually in hopes of a favor.
• Possible Origins:
  • Ancient India – worshippers would throw balls of clarified butter (ghee) at gods’ statues seeking favor (11:10).
  • Tibet – crafting butter sculptures for New Year’s, symbolizing wishes for happiness and peace (12:16).
• Modern Meaning: Flattery with an implied expectation (13:15).
• Interesting Note: Butter was historically a highly prized commodity, lending weight to the idiom’s development.
• Discussion: The group riffs on its manipulative connotations.

  “I take buttering someone up as definitely wanting something in return, as manipulative.” — Rowan (15:05)

• Notable Banter: Digression into the phrase “blowing smoke up someone’s backside” and Kellogg’s tobacco smoke enemas (15:28).

3. Idiom #2: “Nip It in the Bud”

Presenter: Rowan

• Definition: To stop something at an early stage.
• Origin:
  • Horticultural metaphor — removing the bud prevents growth.
  • First literary use: “Nip it in the bloom” (Henry Chettle, 1595) (19:18).
• Common Mistake: Many say “nip it in the butt,” which is incorrect (20:01).

  “What would nip it in the butt mean?” — Ben (20:10)

• Discussion: The idiom is often used southern-style; references to the Andy Griffith Show and Barney Fife.
• Fun Moment: Group debates the nuances between stopping growth and eliminating a problem (“nip it in the bud” versus “nip it in the butt”).
• Meta-Commentary: The show’s tradition of dad jokes draws both criticism and praise from listeners (16:13, 16:48).

4. Idiom #3: “Basket Case”

Presenter: Noel

• Definition: Refers to someone deeply stressed, disorganized, or having a breakdown.
• Origin: WWI-era term, for a quadruple amputee soldier who would have to be carried in a basket (30:43).
• Historical Note: The U.S. Surgeon General denied such cases ever existed, but a Canadian soldier with quadruple amputations did live a productive life (32:09).
• Evolution:
  • Originally about severe physical disability, shifted to psychological breakdowns, and now often applies to things (nations, companies) more than people (35:03).
• Reflections: Use of the idiom is increasingly discouraged as it can be seen as insensitive.

  “It's a pejorative… it’s just lazy writing and it should not be used…” — David Marsh, The Guardian (35:18)

5. Related War Idioms

• Boondocks: From Tagalog (“bundok”), meaning mountain. Now used for “the middle of nowhere” (36:00).
• Pipsqueak: Derived from a small German trench gun from WWI (36:19).
• Trench Coat: Created for, and named after, trench warfare (36:41).
• Fleabag: Slang for a dirty sleeping bag, now used as “fleabag hotel” (36:48).
• Fun Reflection: Terrible living conditions in war led to some colorful linguistic inventions (37:10).

6. Idiom #4: “Let the Cat Out of the Bag"

Presenter: Ben

• Definition: Reveal a secret or spoil a surprise.
• Possible Origins:
  1. Open-air British markets: Con artists swapped piglets with cats in bags (pigs in a poke); doubts remain due to size and sound differences (44:49).
  2. Spanish phrase: “Dar gato por liebre” (give a cat for a hare), tricking customers (47:01).
  3. Naval punishment: Cat o’ nine tails whip kept in a red bag (47:12).
• Related Idiom: “Pig in a poke”—buying without inspection (44:49–45:39).
• Discussion: Irreversible actions, similar to “Pandora’s box/jar” (50:28).

7. Idiom #5: “Like the Cut of Your Jib”

Presenter: Rowan

• Definition: To like someone’s style or demeanor.
• Origin:
  • Maritime term: The jib is a triangular sail; ships’ “jib” shapes indicated their national origins or character (53:58).
  • Possible association: The jib sail’s shape resembles a nose—might have transferred to facial features (54:40).
• “Jib” to “nose” wordplay leads to much joking (“Keep your jib clean…” 55:56).
• Spin-off: “Brown-nosing”—detailed tangent about its obvious, literal grossness (56:24).

8. Idiom #6: “Three Sheets to the Wind”

Presenter: Noel

• Definition: Extremely drunk or inebriated.
• Origin:
  • Nautical: A “sheet” is the line securing a sail, not the sail itself (63:16).
  • If “sheets” are loose/to the wind, the ship can’t be steered and staggers—just like a drunk person (65:10).
  • Degrees of drunkenness: “One sheet” (tipsy), “three sheets” (fall-down drunk), used in literature (66:41).
  • Cited in: Pierce Egan’s “Real Life in London” (1891), Catherine Ward’s “The Fisher’s Daughter” (68:37), and referenced by Robert Louis Stevenson in “Treasure Island” (69:48).
• Notable Moment: Casey, the show’s fact-checking super-producer, is genuinely surprised by this one (71:09).

---

Notable Quotes & Banter

• “Don’t look a gift podcaster in the mouth.” — Ben (05:34)
• “We have been accused of absolute dependence on dad jokes. So it’s totally, totally part of ours.” — Rowan (16:13)
• “I always just read [buttering someone up] as… inherently disingenuous.” — Rowan (15:05)
• “Who needs a case for a basket? It’s like having a bag for a bag.” — Noel (30:01)
• “Cat’s out of the bag… was the OG spoiler alert.” — Rowan (51:20)
• “Nip it in the butt aside… I think I’m learning a lot.” — Ben (22:53)
• “We are nothing if not fans of tradition.” — Noel (17:18)

---

Key Segments & Timestamps

• [05:16] – Opening riff on podcast-themed idioms and intros.
• [06:33] – Introduction of guest Rowan Newby.
• [10:10] – First idiom: “Butter Someone Up” origin discussed.
• [17:24] – “Nip It in the Bud” exploration and “nip it in the butt” jokes.
• [29:06] – “Basket Case” origin and evolution.
• [36:00] – Related idioms from war: boondocks, pipsqueak, trench coat, fleabag.
• [42:02] – “Let the Cat Out of the Bag”: exploring folk explanations and debunkings.
• [53:42] – “Like the Cut of Your Jib”: from sail to personal style; “jib” and “nose.”
• [63:16] – “Three Sheets to the Wind”: nautical roots and linguistic journey.
• [71:09] – Casey “the super-producer” is finally stumped.

---

Memorable Moments

• Puns and Dad Jokes: The hosts’ compulsive dad jokes are repeatedly brought up, maligned, and ultimately championed.
• Rowan’s Recurring Dream: Ben confesses a childhood dream about being publicly hated by the Dave Matthews Band’s violinist—a running joke that highlights the personal nature of the show (24:18).
• Listener/Fan Interactions: References to listener feedback, particularly on their humor and pun “runs” (16:48).

---

Conclusion & Call to Listeners

The episode wraps with thanks to Rowan and a call for listeners to send in their own favorite idioms and mysteries for possible research. The group concludes by brainstorming other titles for the idiom segment (“Idiots on Idioms,” “Idiomocracy”), expressing hope to revisit the theme.

“Let us know what phrase always sounded very strange to you or the origin story of something…” — Ben (73:58)

---

Episode Flow & Tone

• Language: Light-hearted, self-deprecating, and playfully nerdy. Banter is rapid and often digressive, but circles back to the idiom at hand.
• Vibe: Think a witty, nerdy gathering of longtime friends who love history, wordplay, and sharing odd facts—plus a healthy dose of dad jokes.

---

Summary prepared for those seeking a thorough, timestamped walkthrough of episode content and highlights—with all the wordplay and warmth Ridiculous History brings to podcasting’s weird side.

Transcript

[A]

Fellow ridiculous historians, this classic episode has an unexpected gift. It's a special guest, longtime friend of the show, our pal Rohan Newby.

[B]

Man, speaking of Rohan Newby, he doesn't do the podcast pitches anymore, but a record that he and I made together that took us many, many years just came out. It's on Spotify. Rowan Newby. It's called Some Hippie youe Turned Out To Be. And the record just got picked up by a cool indie label out of Philly called Perpetual Doom. So do check it out. I think there's going to be Phys versions coming soon.

[A]

Yeah, and you guys did phenomenal work on that. We talked about that a little bit off air. I. I love. Oh, that lonely song.

[B]

Once you've been lonely.

[A]

Once you've been lonely. That's a banger. Check it out. And no, do please save me a vinyl.

[B]

No vinyl yet, but maybe Perpetual Doom will be putting it out in that format.

[A]

And so in this episode, which is part of a on and off continuing.

[B]

Series, mainly off, but man, it's reminding us. I think we should bring it back.

[A]

We should bring it back.

We had Rowan with us. We also later, I think in this series, we talked to longtime friend of the show, our brother in arms, Frank Mulherron, about crack.

[B]

Not. Not like the drug, the word. The Irish parlance. Yes.

[A]

C, R A, I C. So we got interested in the idea of idioms and favorite turns of phrases. We can't wait for you to hear this one, folks, and get to your podcast platform of choice as you're listening and let us know any turns phrases that we unintentionally used without exploring the etymology thereof.

[B]

Yeah, and Apollo's all about this. If you can hear a little barky boy in the background, he's excited for some idiomatic for the people. Part one.

[C]

This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human. This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing if anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don't sleep on osa.com this information is provided by Lily, a medicine company man.

[B]

People really love Harry Potter, and you too now can experience Harry Potter stories like you've never heard them before on Audible.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. Harry Potter the Full Cast Audio Editions presents J.K. rowling's iconic series as a phenomenal, spellbinding listening event for your entire family.

[B]

The first story in the series, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, is available now, with new audiobooks in the series releasing every month thereafter.

[A]

It's Harry Potter like you've never heard it before. Listen on audible. Go to audible.com HP1 and start listening today.

[D]

So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage on top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages? Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM.

[A]

This episode of Ridiculous History is brought to you in part by American Public University.

[B]

You're juggling a lot. Full time job, side hustle, maybe a family.

[A]

And now you're thinking about grad school.

[B]

That's not crazy, that's ambitious.

[A]

At American Public University, they respect the hustle and they're built for it.

[B]

Their flexible online Master's programs are made for real life because big dreams deserve a real path.

[A]

Learn more about APU's 40 plus career relevant master's degrees and certificates at APU APUS EDU APU built for the Hustle.

[C]

Stay cozy, stay home and save big online during Lowe's December deal Drops because honestly, why go anywhere when the deals come to you? Check this out. Lowe's is going to give you two free select tools from dewalt, Craftsman or Cobalt when you buy a select battery or combo kit. Yep, two tools free. It's basically a holiday miracle. Plus rewards members get free standard shipping all month long. Yet another reason not to leave your couch. Kick back, click around, let the savings roll in. Shop New December deal drops on Lowe's.com every week this month. Fresh deals, cozy vibes, zero effort.

[A]

Ridiculous history is a production of iHeartrad.

It's often said that how do you say it? A podcast in one hand is worth two in the bush or a you can take a podcast to water but you can't make it stream.

[B]

You can't teach an old podcaster new tricks or can you?

[A]

Don't look a gift podcaster in the mouth. These may not be the exact verbatim figures of speech or turns of phrase, but by gosh, by golly, by gum, those things are fascinating nonetheless. Right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[E]

Oh yeah.

[A]

I'M Ben.

[B]

Hi, I'm Noel. And this is Ridiculous History.

[A]

Oh, yes. We should tell people the name of the show. We are accompanied, of course, as always, with our super producer, Casey Pegram. Give him a hand if you're not driving. And this is a very special episode for us, Noel. It's true we are exploring some strange, dare I say, ridiculous idioms and figures of speech. But we are not embarking on this journey alone, my friend. Oh, no. We have. Have joined forces with a good friend of ours, friend of the show, podcaster.

[B]

Producer, musician, just regular all around, Jack of all trades, Renaissance man.

[E]

You can't hear this, but I'm blushing right now.

[A]

Hello, Ridiculous historians. Rowan Newby. Thanks for coming on the show, man.

[E]

It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[B]

Rowan, if that's your real name.

[A]

Could be.

[B]

Yeah. It's neither Here nor there. Has a fantastic podcast called Pitches, wherein various entertaining comedic people, smart people, funny people, come on and pitch pretty horrible ideas for products or films or books or really anything that would require a pitch to try and sell. Is that right?

[E]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[A]

Well, they're not. They're not all terrible ideas, right? They're maybe unorthodox.

[E]

They're unorthodox, okay. That's for sure. Sometimes it's almost scary when we stumble upon a good idea because we don't know what to do. There's often we're like, oh, no, go. You know, let's cut this. You quickly copyright it and we'll save this episode or something. Yeah.

[B]

Rowan was kind enough to have me on as a guest of a very early episode of the show, and we kind of stumbled upon a reality show idea for, like, masked performers. And it was more in the DJ space. But then the other day we looked at the TV and now there's the masked singer. Lo and behold, Lo and behold, parallel thinking at its finest.

[A]

Is lo and behold the name of the artist?

[B]

It should.

[E]

That's a good idea. It would be with zeros, though.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, naturally. And it's weird how quickly that that idea just evolved, Right? One of the things that we're. We explore often here on Ridiculous History will be the strange turns of phrases that emerge, especially in English, but in all languages, over the unending game of telephone that we call history. Right. There's some weird ones. I don't know if you guys have ever seen those great compilation articles about phrases in other languages that just don't translate. You know, like things that make sense in Turkish for Instance, but not English. It turns out that our language has a ton of those. And today we combined our forces to explore a few that captivated us and to do our darndest, since we're a family show, to discover the origin behind these phrases. Right. This is the right episode for that.

[B]

It is. And I think it's actually a repeatable model. I think if this goes well, we could maybe do some more of these. My dear friend. Your dear friend. Rowan's dear friend Frank actually came up with a great name for the segment or this type of show. We could call it Idiomatic for the People. Hey, like as a nod to Georgia boys R.E.M. and their seminal album Automatic for the People. I had a little bit more of a self deprecating name, which would be idiots on idioms, I think. You know what?

[A]

I like both of those. I like both of those. I did not prepare a name for this segment.

[E]

For sure. There's music in both of them.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

There we go. So we decided to do this episode and then we split apart and solo style, gave ourselves some homework. And one of the conversations we had was about whether we should let each other know in advance which idioms we're bringing to the table or whether we should surprise one another.

[B]

I think it's a mixed bag, right?

[A]

It's a mixed bag.

[B]

I certainly am excited. I know some of them and then some of them I don't know. And I'm excited for all of them, actually.

[A]

Without further ado, gentlemen, what do you say? Who shall be the first to cast their word hat into the word ring?

[B]

Well, Ben, I mean, you didn't let us know any of yours, so I'm kind of on the edge of my seat. Do you mind going first with one of your choices?

[A]

Sure, absolutely. There is a phrase that is very common even nowadays. And it is something that should be familiar, I think, to all native English speakers, regardless of the country in which you live. It's something, Rowan, that you and I have said before in casual conversation. It is to butter someone up. Oh, stop buttering me up. Noel. You and I have used this as well.

[B]

Yeah. And it always kind of weirds me out a little bit. Cause it makes me think of, you know, covering someone in delicious, spreadable butter.

[E]

I mean, if you're friends with someone who's, you know, maybe a dinner or you're friends with a turkey, maybe, you.

[B]

Know, I don't know, based me. Yeah, please.

[A]

It's implying a very intimate form of physical contact.

[B]

It really, really is.

[A]

Yeah. So it's strange because we use this phrase and we all know roughly what it means. Flattery. Right. Maybe a little bit of somewhere between flattery and pandering.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

This is actually an ancient concept. I had no idea, because a lot of phrases, oddly enough, in English, come from things like the Bible or translations of it, or they come from wars. However, To Butter Me up has a couple of different proposed origins. And one of the most solid or most widely accepted traces its origins back to ancient India, which I did not see coming.

[B]

So we're talking about ghee here.

[A]

We're talking about ghee. Yes. Well done.

[B]

Clarified butter.

[A]

Clarified G H E E. So here's what would happen, guys. The idea is that in ancient India, people would lob small balls of butter of ghee butter, at statues of various gods while asking them for favors. It's kind of an inducement, the same way that in some other religions, you would offer a favored treat of a God as a tribute. So, like cig or alcoholic beverages or.

[B]

Coins, you know, blood of an infant.

[A]

Food, the skull of an enemy or a loved one. You know, there's a lot of variants. So butter is largely innocuous in this idea. And in Tibet, there's an even older custom of crafting butter sculptures when the new year rolls around. The sculptures are viewed as a way of bringing happiness and peace in the coming year. So when we say that we're buttering someone up, we are implying that either we are making them a statue every year or that we are giving them an offering in a transactional way because we want their favor. So the meaning of this has become less blatant over time, and now it just means be nice to someone. But still, I would argue with a soft implication, soft and buttery, that there is something expected in return.

[B]

Yeah, like paying tribute. Right? I mean, because also, I would imagine we've done episodes in the past about how butter was a very hot commodity, Right?

[A]

Yeah. Margarine versus butter was a big thing, too. But I think you're talking about an older period of time, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was also the one about the Protestant Reformation, about how those butter indulgences were such a thing. Because it really pointed to the fact that, you know, the powers that be didn't actually care about good works and being pious. It was more just a way of, like, depriving people of things and giving the rich what they wanted as long as they could pay for it. So it's interesting, butter has always been kind of a divisive and tasty treat.

[A]

Even as recently as the 1870s. Right. Because there was the law about how margarine had to be dyed pink so that people would know it was not true butter. I think Wisconsin was one of the last holdouts for that. But, yes, that's it. So butter me up the next time you want to be one of those. Actually people in a conversation at a cocktail party or a soiree of your choosing, come armed with that information and butter someone up by saying, I'm sure that you already know the etymology of to butter someone up, but here it is.

[B]

Who would ever do that? Nobody who listens to the show or anyone sitting in this room would ever do an actually, would you? Anyone?

[E]

Butters. What now?

[B]

And actually, you would never go like.

[E]

Actually, you know, I wouldn't do it on purpose. I've been accused of doing the glass messes up the nose thing, but it's always with a. You take it with a grain of salt.

[B]

That's true.

[E]

Or a slab of butter.

[B]

A ball of butter with a ball of butter.

[E]

You know, I think it's interesting, though, that you're really leaning into it being a mostly nice thing. I take buttering someone up as definitely wanting something in return as manipulative, kind of.

[A]

Right.

[E]

Buttering someone up. I always just read as like. Because when someone's like, why are you buttering me up? You know, that tone implicates that it's inherently disingenuous.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah, kind of oh, gee whiz.

[B]

Or like, sort of akin to. And this is not one. I. I don't believe this is one.

[E]

We were searching for a pun today.

[B]

But it's sort of akin to blowing smoke up someone's backside. Right.

[A]

Which I wonder, since we can speculate on that one. I wonder whether that has anything to do with Kellogg and his overwhelming love of what he thought were medicinal enemas, including tobacco smoke.

[B]

Is that right?

[A]

Oh, yeah. He's all about enemas.

[B]

Oh, I knew he was about enemas, but I didn't know that smoke was in the equation. It was all people.

[A]

Tobacco, water. Weird, weird stuff.

[E]

True enema of the state.

[A]

There we go. So what's next? We've cracked the case on buttering someone up.

[E]

Well, I had one question, because they make. So you're saying they made statues in India?

[A]

In Tibet.

[E]

Yes, in Tibet, rather. Okay. Of their gods. I'm just searching for a Ganesh joke. Somewhere in there, there's a Ganesh.

[B]

You just did fun.

[E]

I guess that's it.

[B]

You found your way I'm really sorry. No GI For Ganesh. This is what Ganesh. We have been accused of absolute dependence on dad jokes. So it's totally, totally part of ours.

[E]

I have come to the right place.

[A]

Yes. Welcome home. We have, I would say, we have been lauded for our attempts at humor.

[E]

Lauded.

[B]

Potato, potato, my friends.

[E]

Are you saying that you get, like, listeners writing YouTube comments being like, guys, enough with the dad jokes, okay?

[B]

Well, not on YouTube, but on iTunes. It is a terrible place. Don't ever go. Don't ever read the itunes reviews.

[A]

I get more emails and tweets and stuff. Like, life was hopeless until you guys did that run of puns. Thank you. There's a light at the end of the tunnel.

[B]

Our famous pun run.

[E]

Oh, I heard about that.

[B]

It's for charity.

[E]

2012. Famous pun run.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Classic things will never be.

[E]

How was you guys?

[A]

Well, we had luchador mask on.

[E]

Oh, it's part of it. That's sexy.

[A]

Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time, and now it's tradition, and we are bound by that.

[B]

We are nothing if not fans of tradition.

[E]

Same Z.

[A]

So what's next? What's next?

[B]

Who's next? I don't know. Who wants to go next? You want to go next, sir? Michelle and Newbie.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Okay, the first one I'm going to talk about is nip it in the bud.

[B]

Nip it in the bud.

[E]

Come on, folks. We know what that means. Or if we don't, we at least have used it and thought, that makes sense. Technically, it's a horticultural metaphor alluding to putting a stop to something in its early stages before it becomes, you know.

[B]

Negative, before it grows out of control and metastasizes and takes over your entire garden. Right.

[E]

And it's derived from, like, the budding of plants and that whole horticulture thing. Because you cut the top, then it can't grow into a beautiful fruit.

[B]

That's right. So when you say it, it sounds to me like whenever people use that, it's almost like a bit of a tongue in cheek way of trying to sound southern kind of. It was like, just nip it in the bud. It is.

[E]

I feel very particularly Southern, actually. I remember first hearing it from Barney Fife in Andy Griffith Show.

[A]

That's strange, because I would also assume if I'm overthinking this, that in the original horticultural sense, it doesn't kill the plant. The root, still.

[E]

No, it does not kill the plant. It just stops it before it can reach its flowery climax.

[A]

Okay, so if somebody is for Instance, say, collecting way too many. What's a weird thing for someone to collect?

[E]

Tails.

[A]

Tails. They're collecting too many tails.

[E]

T A I, T A I L.

[A]

S. Okay, they're collecting too many tails. And they say, okay, 14 is enough. It's getting weird. I'm gonna nip it in the bud. But that means they're not necessarily gonna get rid of the other 14.

[E]

That's true. They're just nipping their weird tail collection in the bud before people started calling that person the tail freak of Cincinnati.

[B]

Now it's interesting.

[A]

Cincinnati tail freak.

[E]

Cincinnati tail freak.

[B]

There's actually even another version of this that is nip it in the bloom. And it was first cited in a work by Henry Chettle in a book called a romance book called Piers Plans Seven Years Prenticeship. I'm guessing that's Old English. It's P I E R S P L A. It almost sounded French for a second. But then it's got years spelled Y E R E S, which is very Canterbury Tale ish, if you ask me. And that's from 1595.

[E]

Whoa.

[B]

That doesn't quite add up to Old English, though, does it, guys?

[A]

I also found that this is one of those idioms that people tend to mispronounce or misunderstand. There are a lot of people listening now.

[E]

Oh, I already know.

[A]

What do they think it is?

[E]

They think it's nip it in the butt. Is that what you were gonna say?

[A]

Yes, you're correct. Right?

[E]

Oh, yeah. Which is ridiculous.

[A]

What would nip it in the butt mean?

[E]

What would that mean?

[A]

Yeah, just give it a little bite.

[B]

Just a little tweak.

[A]

A little love bite.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so I was actually wrong. It turns out Chettle was actually a contemporary of Christopher Marlowe, who was like a contemporary of William Shakespeare. So the old English talk, kind of, that does hold true. But I believe the Canterbury Tales were a little earlier than that. But it does feel right in line with that. And that's where it first came from. Which is. I didn't know either. But I'm just Googling away right now as we talk about this because you've. You got my whirly.

[E]

I literally didn't take that note. Cause I couldn't pronounce any of those words.

[B]

That's fine.

[E]

Just so you know, I. I also found that a lot.

[B]

No, that's the thing, though. I just want you to be very comfortable. A big part of this show is the fact that we don't try that hard to pronounce things correctly.

[A]

Other Than other than wonderful. Yes. Because we do have. We don't want to be vague about this. We want to be specific.

[E]

Sure.

[B]

We.

[A]

We have a francophone in our super producer.

[E]

So wonderful.

[A]

He will. He will handle a lot of the fre for us.

[E]

It's also because the French are the most judgy.

[A]

Well, occasionally it's because occasionally he'll do it with some reluctance because we have just sprang it on him and said, hey, Casey, here's a paragraph of French. Could you just translate this for us?

[B]

Yeah. But he, you know, he understands the game, and he is. He has taken to it over time, and now he doesn't even make a face anymore when we ask him to help us pronounce.

[A]

He makes a face on the inside.

[B]

As long as I don't see it and it doesn't hurt my feelings.

[E]

You are a champ.

[B]

He is a champion among men. I also feel like it's largely about. Yeah, no, you're totally right. Like, getting rid of the early stages of something so it doesn't become something worse. But usually it's about a problem. Right. Or it's about a person, or it's like, we're gonna nip this in the bud. We're gonna, like, sort out this disagreement now before it gets out of control and everything gets blown out of proportion. That seems to be the way that I'm familiar with it being used. Right. Yeah.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Now I'm increasingly a fan. And thank you for this, Rowan, of nip it in the butt. I am just gonna See.

[E]

You've just been sitting over there.

[A]

How long? I can pull that off in normal conversation before someone has the Instagram, they.

[E]

Do the finger wag and the glasses and they go, actually, it's nude in the bud.

[B]

And I learned that from Rowan Newby on Ridiculous History.

[A]

I'll say. I co founded and host that show. And they'll say, who are you? And I will naturally, of course, as I always do at an airport, say, my name is Casey Pecke.

And then proceed to wage mayhem across the terminal. But, well, nipping it in the butt aside.

I think this is. I'm learning a lot. I don't know about you guys.

[B]

Every day is a shiny new penny, as our cohort Holly Fry likes to say.

[E]

Yeah. And every day is a winding road, as Sheryl Crow once said.

[B]

It's true.

[E]

Only once, though.

[B]

Well, I don't know. That song was pretty hot.

[E]

No. I mean, she did it in one take.

[B]

You think?

[A]

No.

[B]

Is that true?

[E]

This is also lies about Sheryl Crow podcast yeah.

[A]

Watch out. She listens to this show on a regular basis.

[B]

She is also notoriously litigious, incredibly touchy.

[E]

Right, Sorry.

[A]

And pedantic.

[E]

Cheryl, I'm just razzing you. I'm just nipping you in the butt. Okay.

[A]

All of our itunes reviews that are not favorable are in fact written by Sheryl Crow.

[B]

Yeah, she has like a click farm, like in somewhere in Taiw where it was just like 50 young children just writing mean reviews about ridiculous history.

[A]

It's where most of her royalties have gone, actually. She's put a lot of time in the. You have to at some point.

[E]

Most of your streams too are from her click farm.

[A]

Yes.

[E]

Gosh.

[B]

But you know you've made it when you have, like a true nemesis. And what better nemesis to have than multi Grammy Award winning artists like Sheryl Crow.

[E]

Yeah, you've made. You guys. You made us. Yeah, we've made it.

We're all holding hands right now, by the way.

[A]

And it might sound like we're joking, but I want to be completely sincere. I would like to confess something about my personal life. As a child, I had a dream, a recurring dream where the violinist of Dave Matthews Band hated me, somehow knew who I was and despised me. And eventually I thought maybe that's correct, maybe not. Just like, I didn't think specifically of a nemesis, but I thought, man, it would be amazing if I had a celebrity, not a huge, huge celebrity, but someone who was a celebrity who just knew me and intensely and publicly didn't care for my whole vibe.

[B]

How did this manifest itself? Did he swat you with his bow?

[A]

In the dream, which was a recurring dream again, I would go to a concert, a Dave Matthews concert, when they were pretty big.

[B]

Is that how you knew it was a dream? Cause you never go to a Dave Matthews concert.

[E]

Right, Exactly.

[B]

That's some dream logic there, my friend.

[A]

And.

I was in the concert. I was inevitably on a date. The person I was dating would change because I had this dream over a number of years. And then at some point in the concert, when they paused between songs, the violinist of Dave Matthews Group would come up and say, I know Ben Bolan is in the crowd tonight. And say horrible, horrible stuff about me. This is a true story.

[E]

Wow.

[A]

And I used to think it meant that I was dead destined to go to a Dave Matthews concert, but I have not done so.

[B]

I have an alternate theory. What's that? Well, first of all, I inexplicably know that the violinist for Dave Matthews Band's name is Boyd Tinsley, and he Passed away, didn't he? He did pass. Well, no, I think he actually just got kicked out of the band because it turns out he was not a good guy. I think he was accused of some. Some sexual harassment and he got fired.

[A]

Oh, man. I might in some incredibly useless way be capable of precognitive dreams possible.

[B]

I think that that Boyd Tinsley of the Dave Matthews Band represented your inner insecurities, Ben, and it manifested itself of God and everyone. And you had to contend with that night after night after night like some kind of fresh personal hell.

[E]

Yeah. Plus, you went on, you were saying there was always dates and that the girl changed every time. It's probably because you were taking her to Dave Matthews concert. She probably never saw you again. She said, what are you doing?

[A]

For the record, I believe it was Leroy Moore who actually passed away in the clarinetist.

[E]

Rip.

[B]

Rip, indeed.

[A]

So back to the subject of the podcast. Thank you for joining me on that strange dream journey, guys. I hope I don't have that dream again.

[B]

How long has it been?

[A]

It has been.

At least a decade.

[B]

Then you're cured.

[A]

We say that now.

[E]

There's really only two outcomes here. One, that you start having that dream again horribly in abundance, or you never have it again because you've finally gotten this off your chest and now you're. You're safe.

[B]

What would be the modern day equivalent of the violinist for Dave Matthews Band? I know they're still around, but would.

[E]

It be John Mayer of Dave Matthews Band?

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Or anybody in Coldplay aside from the main guy?

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Are you saying like the equivalent meaning another violinist?

[B]

Yeah, another sort of ancillary player in like a very like contemporary giant, uber popular jam band who might possibly start appearing in Ben's dreams and talking smackdown.

[A]

We may have cursed. We may have cursed me. It may just be Sheryl Crow next time.

[E]

I was gonna say the guitarist for like Rage against the Machine or Slash. You know, one of those.

Like vice presidents of the bands, essentially where they're as famous but not really. You know, you'll lose. All of them will meet you like at a dinner table. It'll be Slash, Keith Richards.

[A]

Oh, gosh.

[E]

You know.

[A]

Well, as long as it's not you guys, I will carry on.

[B]

No, no, we will have your back, sir. We will fight off this horde of.

[E]

Trash talking dream villains. Weird bad band dream villains. But hey, we should probably nip this in the bud and hear from Noel.

[B]

Oh, God, is it my turn? Is it my turn?

[E]

Pretty good.

[B]

Okay, that was pretty good. It was absolutely proper use of that expression. And now we actually know a little bit more about where it comes from. So here's mine. The funny thing about a lot of these phrases is out of context. Like, you get so used to hearing them that you never even think about what the words even really mean. Right. I think that's a big part of this. So for me, it was basket case. Right. So we all know how basket case is used. It's referring to someone that doesn't have their life together, or that's like having a crisis or whatever you're saying, or you can say it about yourself. It's like, oh, I'm such a basket case today. Nothing's going right for me.

[E]

Disorganized.

[B]

Disorganized. But more specifically, it's more of having a bit of a mental health breakdown. I think we can all remember the seminal. I've been using that word a lot in this episode today, but I'm gonna keep rolling with it. 1990s Green Day song, Basket Case.

[E]

I was just about to say where.

[B]

He talks about how he gives himself the creeps. His mind plays tricks on him. He's cracking up. He thinks he's had enough. He's paranoid, or he might just be stoned, but he's having a hard time, actually.

[E]

Very good lyrics.

[B]

Billy Joe Armstrong in his faux British accent. He's having a really hard time that he has. He has just rode that all the way to the back. Yeah, yeah, he really has. So here's the problem that I had when I started really thinking about before doing the research about basket case. I think of the word case and I think of it as like a suitcase. So I'm like, but isn't a basket already a case for things? Sure it is. It's sort of a wicker case, right? It's a basket.

[A]

It's kind of like saying ATM machine.

[B]

So when I thought, exactly, it's a little redundant. So I thought maybe it just meant a useless thing or a redundant, silly, ridiculous thing. Like, who needs a case for a basket? A basket's already its own case. It's like having a bag for a bag.

[E]

You're blowing my mind right now.

[B]

This is a waste. It turns out. Nothing to do with any of that. Absolutely nothing to do with any of that. The origins of the term basket case date back to 1919, during World War I. And it was a term that was used to describe a particularly brutal type of wound or series of wounds experienced by soldiers. Oh.

The dreaded quadruple amputation.

[A]

I think I remember that.

[B]

The quadruple amputation. So you've lost your arms and your legs and are therefore in need of being carried around in a basket. Therefore you are a basket case. And it of course has morphed over time and we'll get to that. But here's the thing. It actually has been consistently denied by army officials that there ever were any basket cases.

[A]

So here's the thing here in World War I, right?

[B]

Well, and it goes on. So the Surgeon General of the army in 1919, the United States Surgeon General said that there were no foundation for any of the stories that have been circulated because this term kind of had been making the rounds. And he uses the term basket case to describe a thing that he says doesn't exist. So he acknowledges the term and its existence, but he says, but there are no such cases as would be required to be carried in baskets. Right. So it's a paradox. It's a bit of a paradox. But then, you know, we've got World War II and the term kind of stuck around in the Zeitgeist. And yet again, Surgeon general in 1944 says, quote, There is nothing to rumors of so called basket cases, and then goes on to say cases of men with both arms and legs amputated.

So here's the interesting part. Apparently there was a case of a Canadian soldier that is pretty well documented who did experience quadruple amputations, but he actually went on to lead a very productive life. And he was fitted with prosthetic legs and even had a prosthetic arm fitted to him that allowed him to be able to write and lived a very normal and productive life. And this comes from a fantastic article on grammarphobia.com that refers to the basket case myth. So obviously the term evolved over time and became much more of an expression referring to mental health and someone who, as we said at the top, is experiencing trauma or anxiety or having some kind of breakdown. Right. So after World War II, the term stopped being used to refer to these kind of imaginary basket cases because there was really no proof of them ever having existed. But considering, I don't know, Ben, you're a bit of a war.

In terms of your interests. Can't you imagine that there must have been at least a handful of cases where someone had been injured so badly by explosions that they may have had to have. Doesn't it seem a little fishy? This official line was like, this never happened.

[A]

Well, here's the grisly thing. It probably did happen, but people's odds of surviving that injury were much Lower.

[B]

That's right. That's why the Canadian case was noteworthy. That's a good point.

[A]

But that's an extraordinary story, man.

[B]

Yeah, it is. And then somehow it just kind of like things do evolved to a completely different meaning entirely because of the fact that these cases didn't exist. But the term was still floating around in that zeitgeist. People kind of started adapting it and referring to people that didn't have their act together. But then it's still used today. And the interesting thing is it obviously is a little bit of a in poor taste kind of term, no matter how you use it.

[E]

Right.

[B]

It's a pejorative. It's a pejorative, especially if you're talking about any person with a disability. And then when you apply it to somebody that's having trouble psychologically, that's also not very nice. So it's actually become more in style to use it to refer to things and nations as opposed to people. And there's a really interesting article in the Guardian. I think it was a letter to the editor, and it's called Basket Case, the Case Against. And it talks about how it is just lazy writing and it should not be used and that then it goes and cites how often it is used. So apparently the sun in the UK thinks that Greece, Zimbabwe and Spain are basket cases and that Prince William could have been one, but then he married Kate Middleton, so now he's okay, he's not a basket case. And then you've got the Times that believes Greece and Argentina are basket cases. Africa once was, but now isn't. They now refer to it as a breadbasket. And then they also talk about particular governments that are basket cases.

[A]

Companies too. Right?

[B]

Companies that are basket cases. And this, this writer makes the case that it's just bad writing and that it doesn't have any metaphorical power anymore and to just let it go. And I would be inclined to agree in some aspect.

[A]

They got that from George Orwell's Rules of Writing. He is the guy who famously said, never use an idiom, figure of speech or phrase that you are used to seeing in print. And he broke that rule often just by the way.

[B]

And this commentary was by a writer named David Marsh. And Ben, as you said at the top of the podcast, war often brings new idioms into circulation. And it makes sense because you have people of different ethnicities mixing under times of great duress. And you've got a lot of like, kind of phrases that co. Mingle and take on new meaning and get adopted. You Know, by different cultures. And I think we had a couple that we want to just throw out real quick.

[A]

Oh, yeah, sure, sure. There's for instance, boondocks, which now is meant to indicate a place in the middle of nowhere. Right. The boondocks originally was a phrase in Tagalog in the Philippines, and it just meant mountain. Or there's. What's another one? Pipsqueak. Right, that's one.

[B]

Pipsqueak's an interesting one because that was actually a very particular type of small German gun that was used in trench warfare during World War I. And then you have. Speaking of trench warfare, the trench coat was very specifically one, a garment that was worn originally in trench warfare. So that was a thing they didn't have a name for, and they called it a trench coat.

[E]

Interesting. I mean, you call pipsqueaks, you refer to someone as a pipsqueak if they're kind of just a nerdy precocious kid.

[B]

Now or in any way diminutive and not worthy of your respect. Right, sure.

[E]

That reminded me of another one. Fleabag, actually, as in like a fleabag hotel.

[A]

Oh, I missed that phrase.

[E]

Yeah. Refers to a grimy and just unsuitable sleeping arrangements. You know, the word comes from slang actually used by soldiers, the trenches, referring to their sleeping bags.

[B]

So that would have often been absolutely infested with fleas under these horrible conditions. So, you know, from awful circumstances sometimes come fun idioms.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[E]

And fun idioms. Fun idioms.

[A]

Fun idioms.

[E]

Actually, we have coined it. We've coined.

[A]

We have tintinnabulated that one.

[B]

Right.

[E]

Speaking of Downton Abbeyed it. What did you say?

[A]

I said tintinnabulated. So tintinnabulation is one of my favorite examples of how you can can simply create a word out of more or less whole cloth. I believe it was Edgar Allan Poe who coined the term tint nebulation to mean the sound of bells ringing.

[D]

Whoa.

[A]

Yeah. Just the sound of ringing bells. Or the sound after a bell has been rung. He just made it up. He just styled on it. Or as we've said before on this show, he churchified it.

This episode of Ridiculous History is brought to you in part by American Public University. University.

[B]

You're juggling a lot. Full time job side hustle, maybe a family.

[A]

And now you're thinking about grad school.

[B]

That's not crazy, that's ambitious.

[A]

At American Public University, they respect the hustle and they're built for it.

[B]

Their flexible online master's programs are made for real life because big dreams deserve a real path.

[A]

Learn more about APU's 40 plus career relevant master's degrees and certificates at Apu Apus.

[B]

Edu Apu Built for the Hustle this.

[A]

Episode of Ridiculous history is brought to you by Britbox.

[B]

It's the coziest time of year on Britbox and that means baking piping hot tea on a chilly day, wrapping yourself in something soft on the sofa and getting lost in a brilliant series.

[A]

And this holiday season, Britbox has you sorted with the best of British tv. So curl up with eyebrow raising mysteries on the cliffy English coast in the new season of Beyond Paradise.

[B]

Escape to sweeping countryside manors where headline making scandal is just another Tuesday in outrageous.

[A]

Or patrol the charged streets and criminal underbellies of Belfast in the new season of the BAFTA winning police drama Blue Lights.

[B]

Britbox gives you the kind of entertainment that makes being home on a blustery day a true luxury.

[A]

So however you cozy, it's all a bit warmer with Britbox.

[B]

See holidays differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox.

[A]

Watch with a free trial today at BritBox.com.

[D]

So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there and everywhere, but your AI can't use the data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it looks. Lives to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to business IBM.

[C]

Hear that? That's what it sounds like when you plant more trees than you harvest. Work done by thousands of working forest professionals like Adam, a district forest manager who works to protect our forests from fires.

[E]

Keeping the forest fire resistant. Synonymous with keeping a forest healthy. And we do that through planting more than we harvest and mitigate those risks through active management. It's a long term commitment.

[C]

Visit workingforestsinitiative.com to learn more.

[B]

Hey everyone. Ed Helms here. And hi, I'm Cal Penn and we're the hosts of Irsay, the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[C]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

[B]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett here.

Listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or.

[A]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

This idea of bags fleabags leads to an excellent segment. I have one that will be familiar to you, Noel, and to you, Casey, and perhaps to you longtime ridiculous historians or fans of other shows. It is the phrase to let the cat out of the bag or the badger.

[E]

A classic.

[A]

Yes, yes. Or in our case, the badger. So going back to what you said earlier, Noel, about how it's strange that certain phrases can just feel normal because of the context in which they occur. Let the cat out of the bag is something that everyone who speaks English typically understands. Right. To reveal a secret of some sort, sometimes an unpleasant truth, sometimes a pleasant surprise. But when you think about it, it's really strange. Like, when's the last time you walked around with a cat in a bag? Or someone was like, hey, will you hold this bag for me? Be careful, it has a cat in it.

[E]

It's full of cats.

[A]

It's full of cats. There's to explain.

[E]

It feels like a very old person bad habit, you know, it might have stemmed from like a granny who was going through serious episode of dementia and had to put her kitty cat in a bag.

[A]

Simply refused to pay for one of those cat carriers.

[E]

Right. And I'm not going to pay for one of those.

[B]

I don't know, waste $15.

[E]

I got this perfectly good bag.

[B]

I tend to picture the bag as being a pillowcase and the act being much more of like a I'm hunting cats and I'm Gummoe. Put the cat in the bag and then I'm going to hit the bag.

[E]

Until the cat is dead.

[A]

Drowning kittens or something like that.

[E]

Yeah, Gummoe style. Not good.

[A]

Well, luckily it's quite possibly not that dark, I have to say. Quite possibly. So the first recorded use of this phrase, it's positive.

[E]

The cat got out of the bag.

[A]

There we go. The first recorded use of it comes from this book review in 1760 in London Magazine. And the reviewer is complaining about this book that they have read. And they say we could have wished that the author had not let the cat out of the bag. And so in this context, it seems like it still has a present day meaning, which is that the author had not spoiled a surprise or secret in the book. But this was used other times in print and there are a few origin stories about how it came came about. I'll give you guys the first one and then tell you why I think it makes no sense. So the first one is this idea that goes all the way Back to open air markets in Britain and the concept of unscrupulous tradesmen or con artist. The thing is that they would trade livestock, right. Including pigs, which were a big deal at the time. Time. And people would sometimes sell piglets in bags. Or as the expression goes, pigs in a poke. Poke would be another one for bag.

[E]

Not a blanket.

[A]

Not a blanket.

[E]

Different. Okay.

[A]

They didn't get there.

[E]

Right. And not as delicious.

[A]

Not. Well, you know, to each their own.

[E]

But that's a corn dog, actually.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

A pig in a pillowcase. I'm sorry. Go on.

[A]

No, that's great. Is that really a term?

[E]

No. Oh, man, it is as of right now.

[A]

All right. 10 tenabulate it. So the idiom that's related to is when a pig is offered open the poke, meaning that one should always check and inspect what you have before you leave after you buy it. Don't buy some mystery thing in a bag just because someone told you what it was. That concept or figure of speech dates back to at least the 16th century. I forgot where an audio podcast. So everybody, I'm sort of futilely gesturing with my thumb over my right shoulder for some reason. That's where the 1600s are, guys.

[B]

Well, now you made it audible so we can picture it now.

[A]

There we go.

[E]

Casey can throw in some sound effects too.

[A]

You've saved the show. So the idea is that these con artists would, instead of giving somebody a piglet sold in a bag, they would capture and sell a much less value. Feral cat. This was a profitable practice for the con artist. But either way, the moment of the revelation, the origin of the phrase in this story is that someone would get home and they would open the bag, and this we can only imagine. Incredibly irritated cat would burst forth and wreak havoc, become an agent of chaos. But this doesn't really make sense because even the largest cat is gonna weigh less than a pig. Right?

[E]

True. Right.

[A]

Like a. I'm not an expert piglet handler. It's not in my skill set yet.

[B]

Your cats are pretty big. They're almost piglet sized.

[A]

Oh, I think.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

They're sort of luxurious, furry, soft piglets.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Hey, and I've seen some emaciated pigs out there too.

[A]

So maybe there's a Venn. There's a sweet spot. There's a Venn diagram here.

[E]

Or maybe they made it a pig and a cat.

I'm just gonna leave it at that.

[B]

Okay, that rhymes. That was very Dr. Seussian. They mate it.

[E]

A pig and a cat. And I'll leave it at that. Casey, more sound effects, please.

[A]

So there's. But there's the thing. All right, so this doesn't really make sense because additionally, pigs and cats make audibly different noises. We can only assume that they would probably not be chilling in a bag. So we would hear some squeeze, some oinks, et cetera, and then we'd hear some loud hisses and meows. And, you know, that seems easy to differentiate, but there's the other idea that it comes from a Spanish phrase, the Spanish equivalent, dargato por libre, to give a cat for a hare. Because rabbits, sorry, H A R e rabbits, are commonly eaten during the 14th, 15th century. Cat and a rabbit are similar in size. And it seems more plausible to pull this switcheroo this way. But the third theory is that sailors would get in trouble in the Royal Navy, and the Royal Navy would keep them in line with a cat of nine tails. And that this was originally kept in a red sack that people could. That everybody was aware of, you know, kind of a warning hanging out in public view. And then when someone was going to be punished, the captain would order that they be trotted out. Everybody on the ship has to join on deck, and then, boom, out comes the red cloth bag. And then, boom, out comes the cat. O, nine tails. And then whoop, whoop, rinse and repeat. So that's a little more grisly. I'm also miming taking out a cat of ninetails in a bag.

[B]

You know, that's interesting, Ben, because they both imply a negative thing being released that can wreak some havoc when it's let out into the world in one. So they both kind of hold true. I have one quick question, Ben. You talked about the original Let the Pig out of the Poke or whatever was about examining a purchase you're going to make and how it would be smart to do that.

[A]

I think I know where you're going.

[B]

It's kind of the opposite of looking a gift horse in the mouth. Right. Because that's impolite. If you're, like, examining a horse's teeth that was given to you as a gift. That's the. No, no. Even though. Though it would be prudent, maybe. You know, even if a horse is a lot of responsibility, even if it was a gift, I would want to make sure I wasn't getting some kind of trash, you know, diseased horse.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

I want a horse that goes to the dentist regularly.

[A]

Well, you can tell the age of the horse by its teeth.

[E]

Oh, okay.

[A]

I think is one of the. One of the Factors or just, I.

[B]

Don'T want a sickly horse because then I have to dispose of the horse. I might get close to the horse and become its pal and go on adventures. And then all of a sudden, the horse drops dead and I. I'm left sad and alone without a horse. I want to stick my head all the way in that mouth. So that was it.

[E]

And not to kick a dead horse, if you will.

[B]

Okay.

[E]

But yeah, I mean, who's giving away horses?

[B]

That's the thing.

[A]

I want to be at that point in my life where someone's like, hey, man, I have this horse. And I thought of, you don't know what I would do with it, but I would be interesting.

[E]

It would definitely be a. Wow. Thanks. Do you also give me a farm?

[A]

Nay. Nay.

[B]

It's like somebody giving you, like, here's a field for you to cultivate and farm and take care of and water.

[A]

It's an obligation disguise.

But that's the.

[E]

It's a whole new career.

[A]

Yeah. The last thing about this cat and the bag idiom, once you guys can tell I went on a little bit of a rabbit hole on is. Is the idea that it is a thing that cannot be reversed. It is very difficult to get that cat back in the bag. Right. It's a Pandora's box or Pandora's jar situation.

[E]

Well, Pandora's bag.

[A]

Pandora's bag. Thank you. Pandora's basket.

[E]

Pandora's basket case. Bag.

[A]

So now.

We are armed with that. And I'm liking the. I think I took us in a weird animal direction, but I was just captivated because I really wanted to know if there had ever been been some prominent myth or some real life historical occurrence wherein someone was like, all right, guys, I've got this bag. I think there's a cat in it. Lives with me.

[E]

Exactly. Well, it kind of was, I guess. Cat out of the bag, everybody. You heard it here first. Was the OG Spoiler alert.

Yeah, that's the cool way of saying it now. But cats out of the bag, no one likes to say that. You know, when you ruin the ending of Sixth Sense, well, cat's out. All right, Grandpa.

[B]

More. More like the. The plots out of the bag plots.

[E]

Out of the bag. Right?

[A]

Yeah. Because that. That guy's Bruce Willis the whole time.

[E]

It's true.

[A]

Always sending Phil.

[E]

He was Haley Joe Osmond and Bruce Willis the whole time.

[A]

I've just got to say it. I saw an episode of Future Man. You guys know that I thought you.

[E]

Were just about to ruin the ending of Six Sense I just gotta say this.

[B]

I think that's past the statute of limitation established on this and other shows, but still, this is.

[E]

Wait, what were you gonna say?

[A]

Well, Haley Joel Osman is still acting.

[E]

Yeah, he was in Silicon Valley.

[A]

He looks very, very different.

[E]

He looks very different.

[A]

He's a very. And I don't mean this in disrespectful ways. He still has the same facial features and the same arrangement, but his.

[B]

His head, but the face is just kind of plopped in the middle of his head. Yeah, I think he's really funny and I really. He's on comedy back Bang bang a lot. And he was on the comedy Bang Bang TV show and they kind of played into that slightly odd look because he plays a character called Slow Joey.

So I mean, I didn't. That wasn't my idea, but no, he.

[E]

Definitely has a sense of humor and.

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[E]

I mean, like him on Silicon Valley is a similar kind of, you know, harebrained character.

[B]

Isn't he also kind of a weird, bacchanalian, kind of debauched, weird Hollywood exec y type guy who is always drugging and boozing and womanizing. Did I make that?

[E]

I kind of. He seems more like dopey and bright eyed and bushy tails as opposed to the other guy who's like that, who's like really maniacal.

[B]

I think I'm confused characters.

[A]

Well, Hayley, Jwasmit, if you're listening, is.

[B]

He on Future Man? Is that why you brought up Future Man?

[A]

Yeah, he's on Future Man. He is. Without spoiling the thing, he's also unhinged in Future Man. I was just watching. I was surprised because I didn't believe it was him at first.

[E]

I've never seen it.

[A]

You know, it's worth your time.

[E]

I'll watch it in the Future Man.

[A]

All right, well, let the cat out of the back. Rowan Noob, what else do you have for us?

[E]

Hey, you know, both of you two, I like the cut of Yalls jib. It's true.

[B]

This jib right here.

[E]

That jib.

[B]

This whole thing.

[E]

Uh huh. The jib over there too.

[A]

I stay jibbing.

[B]

I see it.

[E]

You guys have heard this probably? Oh, yeah, kind of. You can assume.

[B]

Mainly on the Sopranos.

[E]

Mainly on the Sopranos, for sure. It's actually from maritime traditions. It's as old as like 17th century, 18th century. It's referencing the triangular shaped sail known as the German. Some ships actually have more than one jib sail. They all have their own style. And I guess that kind of refers to when you say, I like the cut of your jib, it's like, oh, I like. I like your style, man. I like your vibe.

[B]

Yeah. You know, so this is actually the jib is the fabric, the sail.

[E]

Exactly.

[D]

Okay.

[E]

Oh, and another thing, and I don't know if this was verified or anything, but I read that because these jib sails look vaguely like a nose, it could refer very specifically to someone's facial features.

[A]

Oh, weird.

[E]

Which is pretty interesting.

[A]

Yeah, that's a very specific compliment to give someone.

[E]

Right.

[A]

I feel like you have to know someone pretty well for sure to be.

[E]

Like, hey, hey, Jimmy Durante, I like the cut of your jib. You know, that's a joke for the elders. Everyone Google Jimmy Durante.

[B]

Is he the guy with the big nose?

[E]

He's the guy with the big nose. Come on, guys.

[B]

Doesn't he say, like, ha, cha cha cha or something like that? He says, did I make that up?

[E]

No, you didn't.

[B]

Not isn't. His big nose isn't also quite red, largely probably due to burst blood vessels from alcoholism.

[E]

Bulbous from the gin.

[D]

Yes.

[E]

Gin face for days.

[B]

That makes sense.

[A]

So, wait, what is a jib sail, though we know it's a sail. Is it? You said they have multiple ones.

[E]

Well, it's, I'm assuming, affiliated with the mast of the boat. So which is the big wooden middle part that then hoists the jib sale? Don't quote me on that. But this is what I took in when I was scrambling to learn the.

Chip.

[A]

And I'm surprised to learn that there's this nasal illusion there. Now I'm going to start calling people's noses jibs.

[E]

For sure.

[A]

Keep your jib clean.

[E]

Keep your jib clean, man.

[A]

Why are you being so with nosy?

[E]

Don't be putting your jib in other people. People's, you know, jibs biz. Do you remember jib jab? Okay, we're going off tangent.

[A]

No, no, no.

Now I'm just going to replace the word nose with jib every time I. Every time the opportunity presents this, along with nip it in the butt, is setting up my next.

[E]

Oh, my God. Butts and noses.

[A]

Butts and noses.

[E]

And then that's. That's a perfect setup for a brown nose. Of course. Think about that. Which is kind of one that I thought about earlier.

[B]

Well, that's disgusting.

[E]

Fair enough.

[B]

That's disgusting.

[E]

That is disgusting. I feel like that because it refers to the. On the nose because you're kissing someone's booty so hard. Well, you know, the rest is obvious. But that's why I didn't actually choose that one, because it seems obvious.

[A]

Well, there's someone maybe who has a. Who's just having a. The more, you know, moment happening right now. Brown.

[E]

Right? The light bulb over their head just bursts. They're like, oh, okay, I get it. Brown nose. Got it. Poop.

[A]

I want to check in real quick. Casey, are any of these surprising you so far?

[D]

I hate to be the, um, actually.

[E]

Guy, but no, not so far, no. Well, hold on, Casey.

You didn't know the history of all these. You assumed this is an educational program.

[B]

This is true.

[D]

This is true.

[A]

Well, we still luckily have one more shot to surprised and unactually are again very beloved super producer.

[E]

Unactually is that. Can I be our next podcast?

[B]

Love unactually.

[E]

Love unactually. It's a good idea, Noel.

[A]

Our hopes for this episode today rest with you, my friend.

[B]

Oh, man, that's a lot of pressure. And I'm struggling right now because our Internet has just abandoned me. It has forsaken me.

[E]

We don't use that while recording. That is a lie. This is straight from our Endless Jeopardy brains.

[B]

Oh, well, that's. That's very, very nice. Very nice of you to think that, Rowan Newby, but. But alas, that is not the case. Although, to be fair, Ben and I are the only ones with laptop machines in front of us right now. Rowan is pure pen and paper.

[E]

I am a moron.

[B]

Paper and brains. Well, that's what Rowan is.

[A]

This episode of Ridiculous History is brought to you in part by American Public University.

[B]

You're juggling a lot. Full time job, side hustle, maybe a family.

[A]

And now you're thinking about grad school.

[B]

That's not crazy, that's ambitious.

[A]

At American Public University, they respect the Hustle and they're built for it.

[B]

Their flexible online master's programs are made for real life because big dreams deserve a real path.

[A]

Learn more about APU's 40 plus career relevant master's degrees and certificates at APU APUS EDU apartment CPU built for the Hustle. This episode of Ridiculous History is brought to you by Britbox.

[B]

It's the coziest time of year on Britbox, and that means baking piping hot tea on a chilly day, wrapping yourself in something soft on the sofa, and getting lost in a brilliant series.

[A]

And this holiday season, Britbox has you sorted with the best of British tv. So curl up with eyebrow raising mysteries on the cliffy English coast in the new season of Beyond Paradise.

[B]

Escape to sweeping countryside Manors where headline making scandal is just another Tuesday in outrageous.

[A]

Or patrol the charged streets and criminal underbellies of Belfast. In the new season of the BAFTA winning police drama Blue Lights, Britbox gives.

[B]

You the kind of entertainment that makes being home on a blustery day a true luxury.

[A]

So however you cozy, it's always a bit warmer with Britbox.

[B]

See holidays differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox.

[A]

Watch with a free trial today at BritBox.com.

[D]

So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there and everywhere, but your AI can't use the data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever you it lives to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM.

[C]

Hear that? That's what it sounds like when you plant more trees than you harvest. Work done by thousands of working forest professionals like Adam, a district forest manager who works to protect our forests from fires.

[E]

Keeping the forest forest fire resistant, synonymous with keeping the forest healthy. And we do that through planting more than we harvest and mitigate those risks through active management. It's a long term commitment.

[C]

Visit workingforestsinitiative.com to learn more.

[B]

Hey, audiobook lovers. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with musician, producer and walking encyclopedia Questlove. We're talking about Mark Ronson's memoir, Our.

[A]

Night how to be a DJ in 90s New York City.

[B]

All right, like we talked about before, Mark Ronson found sanctuary in the DJ booth.

[A]

What's a tool or piece of equipment in the studio or on stage that.

[E]

Gives you the most control?

[B]

So I have two microphones on stage. We have the microphone that you hear as the audience. Then we have a second microphone in.

[A]

Which we communicate with each other.

[B]

I feel like that second microphone kind of saves all of our friendships. No, no band likes each other after 20 years or 25 years. Like the Beatles broke up in seven and a half years and we're going on 35. Listen to HearSay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

Are you doing Ice Ice Baby or Under Pressure?

[A]

You know what, man, let's be honest. Vanilla Ice ripped it off.

[B]

They're just kind of intertwined at this point. Right?

[A]

He has that great moment in that VH1 whatever the show was where he tries to explain the music or whatever. Yeah, where he tries to explain. They're different. All right, because he says there's a snake.

[E]

Yeah. No, this looks. There's like an extra.

[B]

An extra blip.

Wow. Well, you guys, I'm ready. I'm ready to take on this responsibility. And it's actually really serendipitous. I did know what our pal Rowan was going to do with the cut of the jib and all, but I didn't actually do any research into it. I had no idea that it was a nautical term. As it turns out, mine is also a nautical term, and it involves not the jib or the sail itself. And it's actually really interesting because I think that these things sound like they should be flipped. Mine is three sheets to the wind. And as it turns out, in nautical parlance, a sheet, which you would think would be the sail. Not. So it's the line that tethers the sail.

[A]

Interesting. And this commonly understood nowadays to mean someone is very inebriated and very inebriated.

[B]

I didn't know this one at all. I didn't even have any inkling. It's one of those ones that I just chose blindly to use.

Sometimes I would even go so far as to say more than three sheets, you know, four sheets. Your seven sheets, your 10 sheets, your 15 sheets to the wind. 42 sheets to the wind.

[A]

Your target linen department to the win.

[B]

Exactly. Your blotto.

[E]

You steadily stink with them. Beyond to the wind.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You were a friend of Phillips or whatever.

[B]

Rowan, you may not have. I don't know how much of a steadfast fan of ridiculous history you are, but we did do an episode where we kind of listed through Benjamin Franklin's expressions for being drunk. And Ben just listed a few there. Great. But one that Benjamin Franklin did not come up with is three sheets to the wind. And this is so crazy to me because. Yeah, these were not sheets or sails, as you might think.

[E]

There wasn't even wind.

[B]

Well, there hopefully was, or else the ship's not gonna go.

[A]

Oh, right, sorry.

[B]

They were lines, ropes. Sometimes they were chains. And they're the things. If you've ever been on a sailboat or a sloop of some sort or perhaps a barge. No, barges don't have sails. I don't know. I'm not a. I'm a bit of a. You're not a. I'm a landlubber is what they call that. Yeah. They are affixed the bottom corners of the sails to hold them in place so that they catch the wind. And again, if there's any sailor types out there, forgive my ignorance. I'm doing the best I can. But I believe a sail would require three sheets to be properly fastened and tightened so that you could actually manipulate it and put it in the direction of the wind so it catches the wind. But again, this to the wind business doesn't even refer to the wind that's catching the sails. It refers to the sheets or the lines being loose or in the wind.

[A]

Huh. Ship can't be steered.

[B]

It can't be steered. Not only that, it. It's going to be erratic because the sail is there and it's catching some of the wind, but it's flopping around like crazy. And so in sort of resembling a drunk person stumbling around.

[A]

Ah, yeah. Okay.

[B]

So there are actually variations on this. Right? So if you're one one sheet to the wind, you're going to not be quite as tight. You're going to have a little bit of a lilch, a little bit of a little tipsy.

[D]

That's right.

[B]

And then if you got two sheets, you're kind of in the middle there. And if you got three sheets, you're not looking good. You're embarrassing yourself. Dad, go home.

[E]

Your boat has sprung a leak.

[B]

It really is.

[E]

And it will sink if you do not get an Uber boat home.

[B]

Yes, that's the thing. And if it's not, it should be.

[A]

Also side note, in the time of F. Scott Fitzgerald, the phrase tight was used to mean getting drunk.

[B]

That's right. That's right. That is a very, very good addition there, Ben. So it's interesting because this expression goes back to 1891 in a book by Pierce Egan called Real Life in London. And this is out of context, and I'm getting this from an article on phrases.org which is fantastic for these etymological explorations. And the quote that they c out of context is fantastic. Old waxen bristles is about three sheets in the wind. It was old wax and I guess old wax and bristles.

[E]

How did that old everybody sea marm get in here?

[A]

Everybody was old wax and bristles.

[B]

Old wax and bristles.

[A]

Old wax and bristles. And I like. It's three sheets in the wind, not to the wind in that phrase.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And then it got changed to to the wind. And yeah, and then in this article as well, they talk about the scale of drunkenness that sailors had where like I said before, three sheets was completely stupefied. Falling over yourself, drunk, you tipsy, like you said, Rowan was one sheet and then. Or a sheet in the wind's eye. And actually they don't list a two sheets. But surely Two sheets was. The middle ground has to be right, because that's going to give you some stability on that sail, but not enough. And they even have another example using a windmill, like a Dutch windmill, which would have four. That's good, man. They would have four.

[D]

What do you call them?

[B]

Turtle turbines. No, that's not. One wing on a turbine is not a turbine. The turbine. Well, they. Some. Some people in the engineering community pronounce it turbine.

[E]

Oh, my bad.

[B]

I know it's true. I only know this because I used to work for public radio and I covered the nuclear industry, and I would interview these engineering nuclear nerds, and they would call them turbines.

[E]

And they did an actually.

[B]

And I'm doing an I'm actually right.

[A]

Now, and I'm pro nerd, so I recuse myself.

[B]

I love nerds.

[A]

And I'm saying that this sort of derogatory.

[B]

That is not what I'm doing at all, Ben. I love nerds. Dare you. I. There are some. Okay, you guys are really making me.

[E]

No, no, no.

[B]

But here we go. So, yeah, if you have four of these, you know, let's call them. What do you call one thing in a propeller? One part of a propeller. Blades.

I am not doing. Yeah, so if you have, like, four of them. Right. So if one of them is out of commission, you got three. That's going to be a very unstable turban.

[C]

Right.

[E]

I mean, for sure.

[B]

So three sheets to the wind. Anyway, so there's more. It actually carries on in literary history in a novel called the Fisher's Daughter by a writer named Catherine Ward. And here's another quote from this phrases.org article from. From this work. Wolf replenished his glass at the request of Mr. Blust, who, instead of being one sheet in the wind, was likely to get to three before he took his departure. Right.

[A]

Yeah, There we go. That makes sense.

[E]

It's beautiful. Honestly, it's a really beautiful expression.

[B]

It is a beautiful expression. At this point, we're still three sheets in the wind. And then we have the modern three sheets to the wind that comes in a book called the Journal of Reverend Francis Asbury that talks about this gentleman's character travels through Kentucky, through Kentucky in the United States, but yet this is an Englishman and the writer also English. And this is the line from this work. The tavern keepers were kind and polite, as Southern folks should be and as Southern folks ought not to be. They were sometimes two sheets in the wind. Oh, that liquid fire.

[E]

That's so great.

[B]

Not to crib too hard from the incredible phrases.org article. But it goes on to talk about how Robert Louis Stevenson really popularized this phrase for a wider audience, because obviously Treasure island was like a blockbuster of a novel, gave us all kinds of pirate parlance like shiver me timbers. And talking about searching for treasure. You got your ex that marks the spot. The image of a pirate with a peg leg and a parrot. You know, that whole. All that imagery. All that imagery comes from Robert Louis Stevenson. And the quote that he uses with this one phrase goes back to the old way, which is, maybe you think we are all a sheet in the wind's eye, but I tell ye, I was sober.

[A]

And there's a lot of great pirate slang in Treasure Island. I think there are also some arguments about how much of that was Stevenson going, this is what I think a pirate will sound like, and how much of it was actual pirate speech. And you know what? We could do a great piece of on genuine pirate speech because a lot of these guys tended to be polyglots. You know, they met so many other people. But before we continue, Casey, could we have a drum roll, please? Did Noel save the day? Was this a phrase that you were unaware of, origin story wise?

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Casey, on the case.

[A]

We did it.

[B]

I did it.

[E]

Oh, wow. Whoa.

[B]

Just kidding, guys. Just kidding. We all did it. Everyone brought amazing stuff to the table. Thank you so much. Rowan Newby of Pitches Podcast fame. Check it out. I think it's on SoundCloud now, but soon it will be on itunes and all the places you find podcast. Podcast at Pitches Podcast. Not for the kiddos. It's. It gets. It gets pretty blue at times.

[E]

It gets a little blue. That's a good way to put it.

[A]

Well, if you to want. Want your kids to have an accelerated learning course in the ways of an.

[E]

Effing and Jeffin and Effing and Jeffin and Languish. Yeah, it's not that bad, you guys.

[A]

Well, if you like the cut of ridiculous history's jib, we imagine that you will go bananas. We didn't look into what that means, but you will go bananas on Pitches. So check it out. As Noel said, don't hesitate. Get the to the entry in the meantime. Yeah. Thanks so much for coming, Rowan.

[E]

Really been a pleasure.

[B]

It's been a pleasure here too. It's always a pleasure hanging out, Rowan. Just like me and Ben. We always say this. I think we say it so much people might think we're not telling the truth, but I swear we are in fact all friends outside of the show. And we hang out and it was nice to have you enter the shipping container. The Podcastosphere with Ridiculous History.

[A]

Yeah, I'd actually like to get a picture of you, Rowan, if you're comfortable with that, we can put a face to it, a name, and we'll pop it up on my Instagram, which is Ben Bullen. Maybe we'll get our Ridiculous History folks to retweet it or I'm sorry, re gram it.

[B]

Is that a thing? Once you have a separate app for that, it's really annoying. I don't mess with that.

[A]

It's a weird one.

[B]

I'm really into the stories. I think it's a lot of fun. That's really the closest thing you can do to regramming stuff. Put them on those stories. You can check me out at Embryonic Insider. You can check Rowan out at Pitches Podcast on the Instagram. You can check out Ridiculous History. Ridiculous history also. So if you want to hang out with your fellow ridiculous historians, you can do that on our Facebook group, which is the Ridiculous Historians. You just have to name one of our names or Casey's name or you know what.

[A]

Or make us laugh.

[E]

Oh, name dropping. That's another one we didn't talk about.

[B]

That's very true. I can probably figure out where that one goes. Big thanks to super producer Casey Pegram and Alex Williams, who composed our theme.

[A]

Yes, thanks as always to our research associate team. Team, thanks very much to you guys out there listening in podcast land. This episode is over, but the story of strange phrases continues. When you are reaching out to us, let us know what what phrase always sounded very strange to you or the origin story of something.

[B]

And let us know if you want to see idiots on idioms or idiomatic for the people rearing its head once again.

[E]

Idiomocracy.

[B]

There you go in the ridiculous historian sphere.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

We'll see you next time, folks.

For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[E]

Hey, audiobook lovers, I'm Cal Penn.

[B]

I'm Ed Helms. Ed and I are inviting you to to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and.

[A]

Greatest audiobooks from Audible.

[B]

Listen to earsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow earsay and start listening on the free iHeartradio app today. Oh, okay.

[C]

Only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first.

There the last one.

Enjoy a Coca Cola for a pause that refreshes.

The Chase Inc. Business Premier Card is made for people who make things happen. Like me. I'm Sam, founder and CEO of Manifest, a product design company that makes everyday products designed Smarter. I get 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more, plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases, which helps us make more smart ideas into a brilliant reality.

[B]

The Ink Business Premier Card Chase for Business make more of what's yours Real business owner compensation for their participation cards issued by JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.

[C]

Sometimes you just need to be comfortable, you know? But that doesn't mean you don't want to look good, too. Well. Old Navy the kings of Cozy have done it again with Bounce Fleece. It's soft, stylish, and comes in elevated colors that look good anywhere. Basically, it's fleece reimagined for real life, made for moments when you want to be cozy but still need to look good. Call it airport chic, call it errand elegance. Either way, Bounce Fleece nails it. Find Bounce Fleece and other holiday goodies [e-mail] it's the season to come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. Warm up with a creamy caramel brulee latte, get festive with an iced gingerbread chai, or share a velvety peppermint mocha. Together is the best place to be at Starbucks. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.