CLASSIC: Philadelphia's Transylvanian Doomsday Cult: The Cave of Kelpius

Summary

Ridiculous History: Classic Episode Summary Episode Title: Philadelphia's Transylvanian Doomsday Cult: The Cave of Kelpius
Release Date: February 22, 2025
Hosts: Ben Bolin and Noel Brown
Produced by: Casey Pegram
Podcast Network: iHeartRadio

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Introduction

In this classic episode of Ridiculous History, hosts Ben Bolin and Noel Brown delve into the obscure and fascinating story of Philadelphia's Transylvanian Doomsday Cult and its enigmatic leader, Johannes Kelpius. Tucked away in Wissahickon Valley Park, the tale intertwines mysticism, astronomy, and early American colonial life.

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The Cave of Kelpius and Its Hidden History

[02:57] Ben Bolin:
Ben opens the discussion by introducing the Cave of Kelpius, a secluded site within what is now Fairmount Park in Philadelphia. He remarks on its obscurity, noting, "You could walk past it and not really notice the history. Now, unless you went inside, right?"

[04:25] Noel Brown:
Noel emphasizes the cave's seclusion, comparing its surroundings to the "Blair Witch" atmosphere, making it a perfect hideaway for the cult. He shares, "It's along the banks of the Wissahickon Creek... Trickled away in wooded isolation."

---

Johannes Kelpius: The Man Behind the Myth

[05:48] Ben Bolin:
Ben introduces Johannes Kelpius, born Johann Kelp in Transylvania in 1667. After fleeing religious persecution, Kelpius, a scholar and mystic, arrives in Germantown, Pennsylvania, leading a group of 40 followers. Ben notes, "He had his own playbook spiritually, and they believed the end was nigh."

[06:39] Noel Brown:
Noel elaborates on Kelpius's intellectual background, mentioning his education at Bavaria's University of Altdorf. "His name change occurred not because of vanity so much as because the common practice for scholars at this day and age was to Latinize your name."

---

The Chapter of Perfection and Religious Beliefs

[07:03] Ben Bolin:
Ben explains Kelpius's affiliation with Johann Jacob Zimmerman and the Chapter of Perfection, a group blending Pietism with heretical and possibly occult beliefs. "They believed that a new spiritual age was imminent... their version of the 1000-year Christ return."

[08:03] Noel Brown:
Noel describes Zimmerman as a "noted German mathematician, astronomer, and defrocked Lutheran minister," highlighting the intellectual rigor within the group despite their unorthodox beliefs.

---

Establishing Hermit's Glen: The Birth of a Sanctuary

[10:05] Noel Brown:
Noel reveals that William Penn himself may have invited the group to Pennsylvania, aiming to attract religiously free-thinking settlers. "William Penn was the governor and... governed Pennsylvania like its own autonomous thing."

[11:18] Ben Bolin:
Ben details the construction of a 40-foot square tabernacle by Kelpius, symbolizing the number's mystical significance to the cult. "Kelpius builds a 40 foot square tabernacle. Because in their philosophy, 40 is like the best number."

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Life at Hermit's Glen: Astronomy Meets Mysticism

[16:19] Ben Bolin:
Ben discusses the cult's involvement in astronomy, constructing what is believed to be the first observatory in the New World. "They had a very clear view... integrated their scientific pursuits with mystical beliefs."

[17:00] Noel Brown:
Noel connects their astronomical observations to their expectations of divine or extraterrestrial signs, citing their belief that "the devils were going to come flying down from the sky."

---

The Philosopher’s Stone and the Legend of the Mystery Box

[29:26] Ben Bolin:
Ben introduces Daniel Geisler, a trusted follower of Kelpius, who was entrusted with a mysterious, locked box—referred to as the "philosopher's stone." "The legend is that it could transmute substances... like turning lead into gold."

[32:24] Noel Brown:
Noel recounts the dramatic legend where Geisler fails to dispose of the box as instructed by Kelpius, leading to a supernatural explosion upon finally throwing it into the Shoykill River. "As soon as he threw it in the river, it exploded... producing flashes of lightning and peels of thunder."

[35:55] Ben Bolin:
Ben reflects on the plausibility of these legends, comparing them to mythical tales like King Arthur's Excalibur, suggesting that the stories serve to amplify Kelpius's mystique.

---

Decline of the Cult and Kelpius’s Demise

[27:35] Noel Brown:
Noel discusses the health struggles of Kelpius, who succumbed to tuberculosis in 1708. "He became ill with tuberculosis... never really recovered from that bout."

[28:17] Ben Bolin:
Ben narrates the aftermath of Kelpius's death, where his followers buried him in the tabernacle garden with a ceremonial release of a dove. The cult dwindled over the next decade, reduced to mere six dedicated members.

---

Legends, Paranormal Tales, and Legacy

[42:27] Noel Brown:
Noel shifts to post-Kelpius legends, introducing Conrad Mathai, a remaining member believed to possess paranormal abilities. Stories include casting horoscopes, performing exorcisms, and even out-of-body experiences.

[43:26] Ben Bolin:
Ben shares an anecdote about Mathai allegedly predicting a captain’s return from a failed invasion, only to have the event unfold exactly as foretold, albeit years later—a tale that's likely more folklore than fact.

[35:40] Noel Brown:
Noel emphasizes the scarcity of primary sources, noting that beyond Kelpius's diaries housed in the American Philosophical Society, much of the cult’s lore is based on later accounts and local legends.

---

Historical Impact and Modern-Day Connections

[44:58] Ben Bolin:
Ben highlights the enduring legacy of Kelpius, pointing out that fossils of the cult still exist in Philadelphia streets, like Hermit Lane, and the area's hidden history continues to intrigue historians and enthusiasts alike.

[22:06] Noel Brown:
Noel mentions that the Rosicrucian Order recognizes Kelpius as its first master in the New World, cementing his role in esoteric traditions and mystical history in America.

---

Conclusion

Ben Bolin and Noel Brown wrap up the episode by reflecting on the intriguing blend of science, mysticism, and community that defined Kelpius’s cult. They acknowledge the thin line between historical fact and legend, leaving listeners to ponder the true legacy of the Cave of Kelpius.

Notable Quotes:

• Ben Bolin [03:59]: "The neo Zimmerman. Right. This is an interesting part of the story that I could not... solve one mystery about this."
• Noel Brown [11:37]: "The cult believed that Christ would return to earth and establish himself an entire new kingdom... based on the Book of Revelations."
• Noel Brown [32:24]: "Kelpius... he says, 'Daniel, thou hast not done as I bid thee, nor hast thou cast the casket into the river, but has hidden it near the shore.'"

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Additional Resources

For listeners interested in exploring more about the Cave of Kelpius and the Cult of Hermits of the Ridge, Ben and Noel recommend visiting the American Philosophical Society's library or reading the detailed articles available on Atlas Obscura and ExplorePAHistory.com.

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Ridiculous History continues to uncover the lesser-known, bizarre, and often unbelievable stories from human civilization, ensuring that history remains as entertaining as it is educational.

Transcript

[Ben Bolin]

Fellow ridiculous historians, we return to you with a classic episode. It turns out that back in 2018, Noel and I and, oh, our guy, Gabe. Remember Gabe Luzier?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, Gabe Louisier. Of course.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, we got super into a doomsday cult over there in Pennsylvania.

[Noel Brown]

It's true. It's a super cool bit of hidden history tucked away in Philly in Wissahickon Valley Park. Gosh, I hope I'm saying that right. Some of those things are hard to pronoun. Yeah, it's a cave. Where legend has it a doomsday cult once made their home their hq. Whatever you want to call where a cult hangs out and does their culting.

[Ben Bolin]

Let's roll it.

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[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season we explore a new theme, from poisoners to art thieves.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.

[Maria Tremarki]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Damien Hirst]

Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here?

[Ben Bolin]

Ow. Go slower.

[Damien Hirst]

From Blumhouse TV, iHeart podcasts and 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi and what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, Obviously. Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Arturo Castro]

Hi, I'm Arturo Castro and I've been lucky enough to do stuff like Broad City and Narcos and Roadhouse. And now I'm Starting a podcast because honestly, gu, I don't feel the space is crowded enough. Get ready for Greatest Escapes, a new comedy podcast about the wildest true escape stories in history. Each week I'll be sitting down with some of the most hilarious actors and writers and comedians. People like Ed Helms, Diane Guerrero, and Joseph Gordon Levitt.

[Ben Bolin]

I love storytelling and I love you.

[Noel Brown]

So I can't wait.

[Arturo Castro]

Listen and subscribe to Greatest escapes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bolin]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Well, well, well, Noel, old friend, here on Ridiculous History, about to dive into a topic that I find endlessly fascinating.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, we're gonna dive into a sea hole.

[Ben Bolin]

What is a sea hole, my friend?

[Noel Brown]

A cult. A cult. A cult hole.

[Ben Bolin]

Yes. Or a cave hole.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, When I say a sea hole, it's more of a sea rectangle really. Yeah, because it's a cave. A man made cave with a rectangular door that was one of the first ever homes to America's original doomsday cult.

[Ben Bolin]

My name is Ben. This ridiculous History, as I think I just mentioned, and of course we are joined as always with our super producer, Casey Pegram. So, Noel, the rumors are true. We're talking about a legitimate doomsday cult. And you know, in another show that you and I do together, we run into cults on a like bi monthly basis, semi regular.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, but on Ridiculous History, man, we don't deal in rumors. What's the brass tax, my man?

[Ben Bolin]

Yes, the brass tacks take us to a place very familiar with everyone here known as Philadelphia. See, the cave of Kelpius is tucked away in a remote section of the modern day Fairmont park in Philadelphia. But it's, it's very old. You could, you could walk past it and not really notice the history. Now, unless you went inside, right?

[Noel Brown]

That's right. In fact, a lot of places that describe it say even if you know where you're going, you're probably a lot less likely to find it rather than just stumble upon it because it is in like a heavily wooded kind of Blair Witch kind of environment, right? It's along the banks of the Wissahickon Creek. And in 1694, a very smart fellow, a scholar, something of a, of a new age mystic type, right. By the name of Johannes kelpius, he brought 40 of his followers, all learned men from their home in Transylvania to the newly settled Germantown, Pennsylvania, because they were escaping religious persecution. Because they were, they weren't playing by the book.

[Ben Bolin]

No good Book.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah. They had their own playbook spiritually, and they believed that the end was n. Johannes Kelpius was born Johann Kelp in Transylvania, as you said, in 1667.

[Noel Brown]

Is that nominative determinism? Do you think his family, like, were maritime folk?

[Ben Bolin]

I wonder. That's a good question. You know, also what I noticed is, given the timeline, this is way before Bram Stoker made Transylvania a scary place.

[Noel Brown]

That's true.

[Ben Bolin]

Isn't that weird?

[Noel Brown]

It's going to come up in the next episode we're going to do, I think, as well.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, it is, it is. Stay tuned.

[Noel Brown]

Spoiler alert. But yeah, so he brought these 40 they had. I think he himself had. You were starting his chronology. He was born. Oh, yeah, yeah. And then he was educated.

[Commercial Voice]

Mm.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah. He completed his education at Bavaria's University of Altdorf, and at the time it was a very respected, highfalutin institution there in Europe. And his name change occurred not because of vanity so much as because the common practice for scholars at this day and age was to Latinize your name.

[Noel Brown]

So Kelp became Kelpius, would mine become Browneus?

[Ben Bolin]

That's interesting.

[Noel Brown]

Bolinius.

[Ben Bolin]

Bolinius Browneus Pegramius.

[Noel Brown]

That sounds good to me.

[Ben Bolin]

So while he's at university, he becomes attracted to, acquainted with, enamored of, a religious movement known as Pietism. This was a reaction against the orthodox Lutheranism of the time. And then it later expanded to include beliefs that, you know, as you said, with his followers, beliefs that were considered heretical, strange, forbidden knowledge, possibly occult. And as he became more and more immersed in this world, he also began to gather different people around him. He was a follower of a guy named Johann Jacob Zimmerman. And Zimmerman formed a small group of like minded people called the Chapter of Perfection.

[Noel Brown]

It's true. And actually I saw him described as such as a noted German mathematician, astronomer and defrocked Lutheran minister. And you know what happens when they defrock you. Right? Right. That's like when you pull all the medals off the general's chest, you know?

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

And send him with his tail between his legs.

[Ben Bolin]

You are no longer allowed to practice the spiritual beliefs. Right.

[Noel Brown]

Give me your badge and gun, Detective.

[Ben Bolin]

Exactly. That's a good way to put it.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Bolin]

And this group led by Zimmerman that Kelpius is a member of, he. Right. Right around this time, he's maybe 20 years old and most of the people in the group around his age. And the group believed that there was a new spiritual age imminent. Their version of the 1000 year idea of Christ returning And that they had to prepare for this. And I love that you mentioned Zimmerman being an astronomer because that was the quantitative basis for a lot of his arguments.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. And I just want to say too, Zimmerman was kind of the one who initially, unless I'm reading this incorrectly, initially put together this expedition. You know, it was like a six month boat trip.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

From Europe to Germantown or Philadelphia area. But he passed away before it could take off.

[Ben Bolin]

Right.

[Noel Brown]

So Kelpius kind of became the new de facto leader of the group.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah. The neo Zimmerman. Right. This is an interesting part of the story that I could not. I don't know if you found anything, but I couldn't solve one mystery about this. Estimates say that around 1692, this group, the chapter of Perfection, received an offer of free land in Pennsylvania, Germantown, where you mentioned, and a free boat ride over, but they received it anonymously.

[Noel Brown]

Now I had read somewhere that it was from the Governor of Pennsylvania.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, okay.

[Noel Brown]

Who was trying to, you know, encourage new settlers to come in and offers of religious tolerance was a big part of early Pennsylvania settlements.

[Ben Bolin]

Right, okay. That makes a lot of sense.

[Noel Brown]

Maybe it wasn't the governor, though, but I know there definitely was a, an effort from the powers that be in this particular part of the colonies to attract more religiously free thinking types and.

[Ben Bolin]

To populate the land with Europeans, of course too. Yeah. I think you must be spot on. You know, I, I love the tantalizing hint of an anonymous person, but I, I Bet you are 100% correct that it was the governing structure of the time. But as you said, Zimmerman, right around the time they're about to leave for what would become the United States, Zimmerman dies in August of 1693. Kelpius becomes the commander. He leads them. He leads his group of 40 people to a ridge there above the Wissahickon. Gorgeous. That's such a fun word to say too. And There, along the 40th parallel, Kelpius builds a 40 foot square tabernacle. Because in their philosophy, in their understanding, 40 is like the best number. It's the most important magical number.

[Noel Brown]

I did just find it was William Penn who apparently invited the group. And William Penn was the governor and I think kind of governed Pennsylvania like its own, like its own entire autonomous thing. Autonomous thing, yeah, that's right. So, Ben, do you know what millennialism is?

[Ben Bolin]

Millennialism, from what I understand, is the belief that the world will expire at a significant date, either completely end or some great change will occur. Is that correct?

[Noel Brown]

That is big time correct. And that is what these folks were all about. You may have seen the Fox television show, kind of a bit X Files ripoff called Millennium, but it was all about like the end times and the end of days and stuff. But there's a couple of different interpretations of millennialism, and I'm taking this from the New World Encyclopedia. One of them is this notion that Christ will come back to earth and establish himself an entire new kingdom and rule for 1,000 years, at which point will come the reckoning or some kind of calling of those that deserve to stick around and those that have to go. Then there's another version of the Second Coming occurs with an immediate culling of the wicked through some sort of cataclysmic event to trigger a new world order kind of thing. But whichever one they believed in, the fact is there was a very specific part of the Bible that is a foundation of this belief system in general. And it's obviously the Book of Revelations. And there's a particular passage that gave this group one of their many monikers. They had a handful. And the passages called the Woman and the Dragon. And it's from Revelations 12 through 16. I'm going to read you a little bit of it. A great sign appeared in heaven. A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven. An enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its head. Skip a little bit. Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough. And they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down that ancient serpent called the Devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth and his angels with him. So it's this idea of hell on Earth, kind of. And what was. What were some of the names of their group, starting with the one that was taken from this passage that they sort held so dear.

[Ben Bolin]

They were collectively known by several names. The weirdest one was the Woman of the wilderness. 40 guys calling themselves the Woman of the Wilderness.

[Noel Brown]

It wasn't even like the women, the collective of the Woman of the Wilderness, the Society of the Wilderness, just the Woman.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, that's the weird. That's the weird thing about it is history doesn't seem to completely agree. Some people will tell you they were just collectively called the Woman in the Wilderness. And then you'll find a couple of other places where they say they were the Society of the Woman of the Wilderness, which makes more sense.

[Noel Brown]

But my favorite, though, is that they were the Hermits of the Ridge. That's like the name of a D.

[Ben Bolin]

And D party, you know, or the name of, like, a good old folksy Prairie Home Companion story.

[Noel Brown]

That's true. The old Hermit of the Ridge. Because the place we're talking about today, the Cave of Kelpius, folks in Philadelphia area just call it the Hermit's Cave.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah. Yep. And the legend has it that Kelpius lived and meditated in this cave built in the hillside of the ravine. And that it was. You'll hear some people say that it was just an old spring house where occasionally Kelpius or some other person would spend the night. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

And then he would return to his summer house, you know, in warmer. No, I'm kidding. The spring house. Like a well house or something. Like some sort of enclosure where there would be a well and a source of fresh water. Right.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So while they established themselves in what became known as Hermit's Glen or the Hermit's Cave, in the Hermit's Glen, they also made an impression on the town. There's a nearby road you can find today, we believe, called Hermit Lane. So this is established. It's not very well known, I'd say, outside of Philadelphia, but it has left a physical trace on the city.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. And there's actually a fantastic article from Atlas Obscura called Cave of Kelpius, where America's first doomsday cult awaited the end of the world. And there's a little sidebar on it that has the coordinates of the cave because it's not exactly something you can Google map to, because, again, like we said, you kind of just have to wander around and find it yourself. But it is technically on Hermit Lane.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, yeah. You'll have a hard time getting mail sent there.

[Noel Brown]

Exactly.

[Ben Bolin]

But you can find it with the coordinates and the space. From what we understand, the meeting space of the hermits, or the Society, or just the Woman of the wilderness, included the following things. They had a rudimentary observatory where the monks would practice astronomy. And this is thought to be the first observatory built in the New World. The quote unquote, New World.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. And astronomy was a huge deal for these folks. And there's a sense that it was because they were on the lookout for. I'm gonna call them extraterrestrials, but I almost wanna say, like, heavenly, like angels or something.

[Ben Bolin]

Signs and wonders.

[Noel Brown]

Signs and wonders. Cause they really did believe that, you know, like that passage that maybe the. The devils were going to come flying down from the sky. What's that, what's that line in. I think it's Batman v Superman, where he says, turns out the devils don't come from below, they come from above.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, that's right.

[Noel Brown]

You know, he seemed to have that in mind when he was looking. And it was a very, for the time, advanced telescope, Right?

[Ben Bolin]

Absolutely. Yeah. They were able to have a very clear view because we, we have to remember it's very easy for us nowadays as a species to see a mystical belief that one group or person has and take that to mean that we should dismiss their scientific beliefs. It's not the case. These things exist hand in hand, and to these people, they were not contradictory. Sort of the same way that Isaac Newton had some really out there esoteric beliefs.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Or that Rudyard Kipling was kind of a racist, I would say. Absolutely right.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, God, what a terrible person.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons and birds. But what if there's something else, something much more ominous that appears under the COVID of night, Silent, unseen, watching. They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road. Or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home. Drones. Or are they?

[Noel Brown]

We used the word drone because it.

[Commercial Voice]

Was comfortable to other people.

[Ben Bolin]

One minute was there and one minute it wasn't. Oh, that is beyond creepy.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically?

[Noel Brown]

Yes, absolutely.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Listen to Obscurum Invasion of the Drones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together, we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season we explore a new theme. Everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Yep, that's a fact.

[Maria Tremarki]

We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching. To see what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective.

[Holly Fry]

And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom made cocktails and Mocktails inspired by the stories. There's one for every story we tell.

[Maria Tremarki]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Damien Hirst]

Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here?

[Ben Bolin]

Ow. Go slower.

[Damien Hirst]

From Blumhouse TV, iHeart podcasts and Ember 20 comes an all new fict comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. And Santi was gone. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi and what's the way to find a missing person. Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Hmm. Pillow talk. The most unwelcome window into the human psyche. Follow our out of his element hero as he engages in a series of ill conceived investigations. Hookups. Mama always used to say God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. And as I was about to learn, no amount of showering can wash your hands of a bad hookup.

[Noel Brown]

Now take a big whiff, my bruh.

[Damien Hirst]

Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Arturo Castro]

Hi, I'm Arturo Castro and I've been lucky enough to do stuff like Broad City and Narcos and Roadhouse House and so many commercials about back pain. And now I'm starting a podcast because honestly guys, I don't feel the space is crowded enough. Get ready for Greatest Escapes, a new comedy podcast about the wildest true escape stories in history. Each week I'll be sitting down with some of the most hilarious actors and writers and comedians to tell them a buck wild tale from across history and time. People like Ed Helms, Diane Guerrero, Joseph Gordon Levitt and Zoe Chao.

[Damien Hirst]

Titanic, Charles Manson, Alcatraz, Assata Shakur, a.

[Ben Bolin]

Sketchy guy named Steve.

[Arturo Castro]

It's giving funny true crime.

[Ben Bolin]

I love storytelling and I love you.

[Noel Brown]

So I can't wait.

[Arturo Castro]

Listen and subscribe to Greatest escapes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Noel Brown]

The interesting thing too about Kelpius is that we don't know. We don't have a lot of primary sources on him. So there's a lot of conjecture. And when you go to the cave of Kelpi, there's no artifacts left behind, there's no furniture. It's just out there. There is a marker that was put there by a little society. We know a bit about their philosophy, don't we, Ben? The Rosicrucian. The order of the Rosicrucians that's right. Or the Rose Cross.

[Ben Bolin]

That's right, Noel. The Order of the Rosy Cross built a marker for this. And, you know, if you went back in the 40s, you would see some stuff in the cave. Like you'd see a chimney that was there for a while.

[Noel Brown]

I think it got vandalized or damaged beyond repair, and so they removed it. But I saw this cool video that it was cool for a minute and then it started to lean a little heavily into some not true stuff.

[Ben Bolin]

Right.

[Noel Brown]

But it did have a really cool walkthrough of the cave. And I don't know if this was added later. I mean, it's certainly possible. But there's a. There's a cross and then an upside down cross right next to it. And the idea being that like, you know, one is the sign of Christ, the other is the sign of the devil. And then throughout the space there are some other kind of strange coded messages. But one thing we do know is real and not just, you know, passersby having a laugh, is this Rosicrucian marker that identifies Kelpius as being the first Rosicrucian in the New World.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, it's legit. And the chronology works out. The thing about these semi secret orders, these mysterious esoteric groups, is that they can often just appoint themselves in, you know, appoint authority to themselves. But according to the tradition, he's not only the first Rosicrucian, he's the first Rosicrucian master. Right. There's some neat articles about this. Like you can find a lot of local Pennsylvania history places. I really enjoyed the explorepahistory.com story about the marker. And you can read both the modern marker that is in place that tells you about the Kelpius community.

[Noel Brown]

That's the newer one.

[Ben Bolin]

That's right, that's the newer one. And then you can see the other older stuff that's also spread around there. It's a shame about the vandalism. You know what I mean?

[Noel Brown]

Absolutely.

[Ben Bolin]

That really broke my heart. But we forgot to mention. Okay, so there are millennials, millenarians, same difference. There we go. And they had a very specific time frame for this Last Judgment. And it was 1694, the year that they all got together in this area. Right. Or when they really doubled down. But that time came and went. See, that's the problem with a lot of doomsday cults. They'll predict something and then that moment will pass and the world will spin on as it will. And then they have to find a new way to understand this. So according to the Chestnut Hill local with the title the Rapture that never the story of the hermits of the Wissahickon. According to them, when 1694 came and went without a last judgment, Kelpius. And the society said, you know what? We're going to look toward the year 1700. Certainly the advent of this new century will bring about the end of mankind and the return of Jesus Christ.

[Noel Brown]

I mean, you gotta hope, you know.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, hope for something better. Right. And the year arrived. There was not, from their perspective, a return of a messiah. And then they started to, I don't know, the members began to get tired of these continual claims.

[Noel Brown]

Well, have you heard of the Church of the Subgenius, Ben? Yes, it's sort of a joke cult kind of. I mean, yes, I'm gonna leave it at that. This is sort of a joke call where they worship. Supposedly this like 50s clip art like dad looking head with a pipe called Reverend JR Bob Dobbs. And the fundamental concept of subgenius is slack, but a big part of them is they have this thing called X day where supposedly these aliens are gonna come and do very much a thing that I think the Order of the Hermits, or whatever you want to call them were hoping for, but they got the date wrong because they looked at it upside down. The big, you know, and that's just sort of like a little bit thumbing of the nose at a lot of these death cults where they always get something a little off and then, you know, oh, it'll be next time, just keep, keep stick with us, you know.

[Ben Bolin]

And again, in, in the defense of this group of Kelpius community, they were not super aggressive, crazy, violent, aggro people like you said.

[Noel Brown]

The community even kind of enjoyed their presence. They were very gentle types, it would seem.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, it would seem so. And then as they began to. As enthusiasm at least began to taper off, they saw the end of the cult becoming more and more immediate. Because Kelpius, it turns out that living in caves with crushing low temperatures, especially in the winter months, turns out it's not good for you. No matter how well informed you are or no matter how talented of an astronomer you are.

[Noel Brown]

Well, we also find that a lot of times people that are like really driven and obsessed with the quest for knowledge sometimes don't take the best care of their physical vessels because they're so busy doing all the maths and stuff, you know, that they just. Who's got time to eat or, you know, put on a blanket and Kelpius.

[Ben Bolin]

Became ill with tuberculosis. It's around 1705. He had to go away from the tabernacle area and move into the home of a former member who had already left the organization in Germantown proper. And he lived. He lived for about three more years.

[Noel Brown]

I believe he was early 40s when he passed away. Seemed. Seemed quite. Quite unfortunate. And young.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, yeah. He never really recovered from that bout of tuberculosis. And he died in 1708. His followers returned. They took his body to the tabernacle. They buried him in the garden, and they had a ceremony where they released a dove as they were lowering him into the ground. The society itself survived for about another 10 years or so, but without the same drive or enthusiasm it was. At some point, it got down to just six hardcore believers. But here we end some of the facts and we get to some of the real juicy stuff, the legends.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, man, this is fun stuff. This is much more in the realm of our other program. Stuff they don't want you to know, but it is just. Yeah, so, so much fun. So great. So one of Kelpius's most trusted confidants and followers was a guy by the name of Geisler. Was his first name.

[Ben Bolin]

Daniel.

[Noel Brown]

Daniel Geisler. And he was kind of trying to adhere to the mystical guru's last wishes as he was on his deathbed. Right.

[Ben Bolin]

Because Kelpius gave Geisler a very particular artifact. It was a box, but it was locked.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. I like to refer to it as the mystery box. I think of that thing in Mulholland Drive, you know, where they pull out the box and the camera zooms in and then everything gets real weird.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

It's like that, you know, no one knows what's in the box. But there's a fantastic article from the Voice, the Philly voice, in fact, called. Did Wissahick and Hermit have fabled philosopher's stone? Huh?

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Ben, remind us, what's the philosopher's stone?

[Ben Bolin]

Ah, yes. Well, in the most common way to put it, without making it a crazy metaphor for something, is that it's a legendary substance that you hear a lot about in alchemical writings that can turn things into. Into other things. It can transmute substances. So you'll hear stuff like turning lead into gold, for instance. Right.

[Noel Brown]

That sounds cool.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah. It sounds like a great stone to have. Right. It may not be a physical stone in all the stories. Sometimes it's just the substance, and sometimes it's thought to be more of a symbol of a mystical term for the Great work. In every effort by alchemists to discover this substance or create it or reproduce it, those efforts were collectively known as the great Work.

[Noel Brown]

The Great Work.

[Ben Bolin]

So the idea that a mystic like Kelpius would possess this philosopher's stone is amazing and astonishing to anybody who is still searching for it. Now, we have to keep in mind, you know, this is the early early 18th century, so belief in alchemy is still, you know, much more widespread than it is in 2018, I would say.

[Noel Brown]

So Kelpius is on his deathbed in the throes of the dreaded tuberculosis. This was the early 1700s, I think. 1708. And his confidant there, Geisler. Geisler is. I'm just painting a picture here, Kneeling by his bedside and saying, master, Master, what can I do for you to ease your suffering? Anything. This is totally how it went down. And to that, Kelpius says, well, there is one thing, my son. Come closer. You know how they always do that when they're on the deathbed, then come closer.

[Ben Bolin]

I don't have this strength.

[Noel Brown]

Come closer. I want you to take, hence, this box, my arcanum, and I want you to throw it in the river. The Shulkill River. How would you say that?

[Ben Bolin]

Shoykill. Shoykill.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. I want you to throw it in the watery depths of the Shoykill. And, you know, to this our boy Geisler, he said, sure, yeah. Well, of course, anything. And then promptly didn't do it.

[Ben Bolin]

And the great part of that legend is when he comes back and he's like, all done, boss.

[Noel Brown]

Kelpius, he says, come closer.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah. He raises himself up, and he expends what little energy he has to point at him and say, daniel, thou hast not done as I bid thee, nor hast thou cast the casket into the river, but has hidden it near the shore.

[Noel Brown]

And then he was like, oh, you got me. You got me, boss. I was gonna try to pick that lock. And.

[Ben Bolin]

And so now he's convinced that his master.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, no, he's definitely. He's definitely convinced. And so he. He. You know, he finally does it. And what a disappointment, though, he. This guy was.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

What kind of follow are you if you can't just follow simple instructions of a dying mystic?

[Ben Bolin]

It's a dying wish.

[Noel Brown]

Seriously.

[Ben Bolin]

So. So what happens, though, when he actually it away?

[Noel Brown]

Well, according to this account, which was given by Geissler to a. A guy by the name of Henry Mullenberg, who the Mullenberg College in Allentown, Pennsylvania, was named after, and also He. I think he started the North American Lutheran Church or he was a big force in establishing the North American Lutheran Church. This is again from this Philly Voice article. It's a very fabulous account because he says, and this is all written down, that as soon as he threw it in the river, exploded.

[Ben Bolin]

Yes. Yeah. So help me get this straight. Did it explode? Was it a flash of lightning? Did it come from the box? That's what it almost sounds like.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. It's a little weird. It's written as though it produced some kind of alchemical reaction, some sort of elemental. That's the word I'm looking for, reaction, because it's described as producing flashes of lightning and peels of thunder.

[Ben Bolin]

It made me think when we first were reading about this, of Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark. Remember where they find somebody ignores the advice and they open the ark and people melt and there's all this strange. At the time, amazing special effects.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. It's also been forever memorialized in an amazing GIF that you can drop whenever someone says something crazy. Throw down the one of the Nazi's face melting off and his eyes bugging out.

[Ben Bolin]

There we go. This account we should also mention. Glad you brought up Henry Muhlenberg, because Geisler didn't tell the pastor about this immediately after. Right? It was a number of years.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But this. This Philly Voice article does a really good job of pointing out how this sounds a whole lot more like a kind of literary device rather than an actual account. You know, they compare it to King Arthur asking his follower to throw Excalibur into the lake. And then the lady of the Lake reaches aloft and grabs Excalibur. You know what I mean? Like they would have known about those stories.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, they were well read.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. But it's like, it's very odd that he would tell this very specific and quite incredible account that. To what end? To help spread the mythos of this mystic, you know?

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, that's the interesting question. Because obviously they were quite educated for the time they were aware of folklore. They would understand the connections. Oh, and I can't believe we forgot the fun fact there. These guys are famous for another reason. Because Christopher Witt in 1705 painted Kelpius and it's believed to be the oldest oil painting in the U.S. oh, I didn't catch that. It has nothing to do with magic or allegations thereof.

[Noel Brown]

You know, art. Art is its own kind of magic and its own reward.

[Ben Bolin]

That's awesome. That's a good way to look at it.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons, and birds. But what if there's something else, Something. Something much more ominous that appears under the COVID of night. Silent, unseen, Watching. They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road. Or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home. Drones. Or are they?

[Noel Brown]

We used the word drone because it.

[Commercial Voice]

Was comfortable to other people.

[Ben Bolin]

One minute was there and one minute minute it wasn't. Oh, that is beyond creepy.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically?

[Ben Bolin]

Yes, Absolutely.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Listen to Obscurum Invasion of the Drones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season we explore a new theme. Everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Yep, that's a fact.

[Maria Tremarki]

We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching, to see what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective.

[Holly Fry]

And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom made cocktails and mocktails inspired by the stories. There's one for every story we tell.

[Maria Tremarki]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Damien Hirst]

Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here?

[Ben Bolin]

Ow. Go slower.

[Damien Hirst]

From Blumhouse TV, iHeart podcasts and Ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. And Santi was gone. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened happened to Santi. And what's the way to find a missing person. Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Hmm. Pillow talk, the most unwelcome window into the human psyche. Follow our out of his element hero as he engages in a series of ill conceived investigative hookups. Mama always used to say God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. And as I was about to learn, no amount of showering can wash your hands of a Bad hookup.

[Noel Brown]

Now take a big whiff, my bruh.

[Damien Hirst]

Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Arturo Castro]

Hi, I'm Arturo Castro, and I've been lucky enough to do stuff like Broad City and Narcos and Roadhouse and so many commercials about back pain. And now I'm starting a podcast because honestly, guys, I don't feel the space is crowded enough. Get ready for Greatest Escapes, a new comedy podcast about the wildest true escape stories in history. Each week I'll be sitting down with some of the most hilarious actors and writers and comedians to tell them a buck wild tale from across history and time. People like Ed Helms, Diane Guerrero, Joseph Gordon Levitt and Zoe Chao.

[Damien Hirst]

Titanic, Charles Manson, Alcatraz, Assata Shakur, the.

[Ben Bolin]

Sketchy guy named Steve.

[Arturo Castro]

It's giving funny true crime.

[Ben Bolin]

I love storytelling and I love you.

[Noel Brown]

So I can't wait.

[Arturo Castro]

Listen and subscribe to Greatest escapes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bolin]

So this account may be fictitious. It may be solely a legend.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, and this. This speculation is coming from a historian from the Historical Society of Pennsylvania by the name of Dan Roth, who was interviewed for this piece on phillyvoice.com that was written by John Kopp, who's a staff writer for Philly Voice. So where does that leave us today? Oh, I do have one other thing. I did see this video that I was talking about earlier that it's kind of cool for a. For a point. And then it really starts to get into, like. And he was totally looking for aliens, and Ben Franklin liked it, was believed in aliens too. And Ben Franklin supposedly got possession of all of the relics and remaining materials that were ever in this cave. But I found no mention of that anywhere, like, of any connection between Ben Franklin, other than the fact that the American Philosophical Society, which was founded by Ben Franklin, does have two books of Kelpius in their library. One of them is the diary of Magister Johannes Kelpius, and that is from 1917, reprinted, so it's not even an original. And then they also have the journal of Johannes Kelpius, Magister of the Hermits on the ridge in Pennsylvania, 1694, 1708. So those two, I think, are the only surviving actual accounts from Kelpius himself. Yeah, a lot of there. There maybe was some other correspondence or something like that, but it was not a whole lot. None of his actual philosophy is codified in any kind of, like, expansive works.

[Ben Bolin]

Right, right. Those are the two books that we are aware of. There is one other, I thought, fascinating paranormal story if we want to continue getting worried about.

[Noel Brown]

Oh yeah, man.

[Ben Bolin]

Kelpius. Okay. So we said that after his death, the brotherhood, the society dwindles down. At one point there are just six. Call them hardcore monks, zealots, ardent believers. And they were led by a guy named Conrad Mathai. Maathai. Let's go with that.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, like ah, Mathai.

[Ben Bolin]

There we go. Perfect. But eventually the group starts breaking down further and further and further. And that guy we mentioned, Christopher Witt, who moved to Germantown, he also quit the group. But he continued a lot of his hobbies that he had from his time in the group. And he did pretty well. By 1718, he was a wealthy man. He had bought over 120 acres of land. But he was always under suspicion in town of being. Get this Null. A Hexenmeister.

[Noel Brown]

Is it like a witchy dude? Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Bolin]

So people thought he was maybe using his magic, his magical abilities or his esoteric wisdom to get ahead in the secular world. And. And they also continue to provide services of a paranormal or spiritual type to the community. This guy I just mentioned, Conrad Mathai, cast horoscopes, he performed exorcisms. He said he could travel outside of his own body. There was a book called the Pietist of Provincial Pennsylvania written by that alliteration, don't we? Yes, written by a guy named Julius Sacche who says the following about Conrad. A captain's wife allegedly asked Conrad in 1740 when he could expect her husband's ship to return. So the guy goes into his chamber, lays down in a trance for an hour. Then he wakes up, he comes back in and he tells this lady her husband is at a London coffee house and he's preparing to set sail for the New World. And when the captain returns, you know, several months later, whatever, he meets Conrad. And then the first thing he says again according to this story is that he was in a London coffee house and saw the dude, Conrad himself, staring at him. And he said he remembered the encounter because apparently the old man, Conrad, had come up and yelled to him about not writing to his wife. That's gotta be total malarkey.

[Noel Brown]

Rude.

[Ben Bolin]

But what a great story.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, that's a good one. Good way to cap this one off. You got anything else?

[Ben Bolin]

You know what I think we can call it? Oh no. Do you hear that, guys?

[Noel Brown]

Really?

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, man, it's been so long. We had such a streak going.

[Noel Brown]

It's time Jonathan Strickland.

[Ben Bolin]

It's been so long. Jonathan Strickland. The quiz you've been working on, that laugh.

[Commercial Voice]

I've been celebrating, gentlemen.

[Noel Brown]

Missing seven nights. Weird.

[Commercial Voice]

Have you.

[Noel Brown]

It's like the way you miss a. Like a sharp pain in your side.

[Commercial Voice]

Where suddenly you wake up one morning and you think, huh, that's different. Yeah, I kind of miss it now. That's very sweet of you.

[Ben Bolin]

Day after the chiropractor kind of longing.

[Commercial Voice]

Well, just consider me your spinal adjustment of love. Here I am.

[Ben Bolin]

All right.

[Commercial Voice]

To give you yet another perplexing scenario, whereupon you must decide whether or not it is truth or fiction. Within the span of 30 minutes.

[Noel Brown]

You know, I put forth a perplexing scenario or a notion that my theory is that you. We haven't seen you for so long because you're going around and messing with other podcasts that we don't know about.

[Ben Bolin]

Is that true?

[Commercial Voice]

I. I can neither confirm nor deny.

[Ben Bolin]

Have you been podcast cheating on us? Man, I.

[Commercial Voice]

Listen, Ben, listen, listen. Hey, listen, Ben. Things are complicated right now. Check my Facebook status.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, man.

[Commercial Voice]

It's just you never know when someone needs to be, you know, shown up by.

[Ben Bolin]

Wow.

[Commercial Voice]

Having to prove their ability, their proposed strengths.

[Ben Bolin]

I have defended you on this show.

[Commercial Voice]

Listen, Ben, listen, listen.

[Noel Brown]

No.

[Commercial Voice]

Mortgages don't pay themselves, Ben.

[Ben Bolin]

All right, you know what?

[Noel Brown]

Quis caves don't come cheap the most.

[Commercial Voice]

It's the most cringe worthy segment in all of podcasting yet again. And of course, course, here we have recently celebrated the fourth of July.

[Ben Bolin]

That is true. That is true.

[Noel Brown]

I think, in fact, Today is the 5th of July.

[Commercial Voice]

It is in fact, as we record this, the 5th of July. And so the question today, our scenario today, has to do with someone who was very much connected to the Declaration of Independence. And so you will get your scenario. The timer will start at three minutes. You will of course have to ask questions of me. And I always.

[Noel Brown]

I confuse that one with the Constitution. Is that going to be a problem?

[Commercial Voice]

We will see. But in order to ask a question this time, I always give you an arbitrary rule. This time, if you wish to ask a question me, you must first say. Sit down, John.

[Ben Bolin]

All right.

[Commercial Voice]

Reference to a musical called 1776. Go watch it, Noel.

[Noel Brown]

All right, all right. I might learn a thing or two.

[Commercial Voice]

Here's your scenario. Prepare yourself and start the timer when I am done.

[Ben Bolin]

Hang on, let me warm up. Because as long time listeners know, I have to get a running start to jump and hit the. Hit the second hand of this grandfather clock. We spent so much money On.

[Commercial Voice]

If you could get the touch screen on that grandfather clock activated and you just unlock it now so that you can type in the number. Here we go.

[Ben Bolin]

We're working live, man.

[Commercial Voice]

Along with Dr. Lyman hall and George Walton, Button Gwinnett signed the Declaration of Independence representing the colony of Georgia. He would return to Georgia to serve as president. He also maintained a rivalry with Lachlan McIntosh, a Scotsman who served in the American army as a brigadier general, which was a position that Gwinnett had coveted. Gwinnett commanded McIntosh to conduct an invasion of East Florida during the Revolution. The invasion was a terrible failure. The two men blamed one another for the fiasco, and it all resulted in a duel. However, on the morning the duel was to take place in southern Georgia, near the border of Florida. As Button Gwinnett walked his way to Lachlan Mackintosh, he was bitten by a venomous snake suspected by historians to be a coral snake. And while the bite itself might not have been fatal, the medical attention that was given to him certainly was. And he died of infection a week and a half later. Start the clock.

[Ben Bolin]

All right, we are start. Give it a running start. Boom. Okay, sit down, John.

[Commercial Voice]

Yes, Mr. Bolan, could you tell us.

[Ben Bolin]

Again where this duel allegedly took place?

[Commercial Voice]

Southern Georgia, not too far from the border of Florida, near what is now known as Fort McIntosh as. As it turns out.

[Ben Bolin]

And Button Gwinnett. So we know there's a Gwinnett County.

[Noel Brown]

We know about Button. I mean, I remember him from Georgia.

[Ben Bolin]

History as a boy, you know, and McIntosh is a. Is a common name for institutions here in Georgia.

[Noel Brown]

I always confuse Button Gwinnett with Oglethorpe, though, just like I do the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution. I am a really bad historian.

[Ben Bolin]

You know, we're not bad, Noel. We're ridiculous.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, that's right.

[Ben Bolin]

That's our whole thing.

[Noel Brown]

That's kind.

[Ben Bolin]

So, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

One thing I don't remember from Georgia history is hearing anything about a snake bitten Button.

[Ben Bolin]

Right. Also coral snakes. That's standing out to me. I am very tempted to just go false.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Bolin]

You want to just.

[Noel Brown]

Well, sit down, John.

[Commercial Voice]

Here we go. Yes.

[Noel Brown]

Is the kicker that he died from poor medical. Like we are we. It's been so long. Are we trying to discern if, like, any detail of the story is true? The whole thing is not true. If you're saying he died from poor medical attention, but then there was a detail in there that wasn't true.

[Commercial Voice]

Any one detail there could make this statement false.

[Noel Brown]

That is how that works.

[Commercial Voice]

So it is either all true or all false or there's some falsehood in it, but if there's just some falsehood in it, it is still inherently false. It is inherently false.

[Ben Bolin]

Okay, so all or nothing. All or nothing.

[Noel Brown]

I'm locking and false babies.

[Ben Bolin]

All right?

[Noel Brown]

Me, personally. I mean, I'm. I need you to.

[Ben Bolin]

Let's. Yeah, yeah, let's. Let's count it down and make it official, bro. Three, two, one. False.

[Commercial Voice]

Gentlemen, you have defeated me finally. I believe now I'm only three ahead.

[Noel Brown]

You know, one day at a time, man.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, kcq, play some victory music.

[Commercial Voice]

Make it. Make it a dirge, Casey. A dirge. So here. Here are the actual facts.

[Noel Brown]

Yes, there was a duel.

[Commercial Voice]

There was a duel.

[Noel Brown]

I remember that.

[Commercial Voice]

Button Gwinnett did wish to be Brigadier General at the American revolutionary war. Lachlan McIntosh, his political rival, got that. And then when he returned to Georgia, he was first elected speaker of the House of Georgia as well as commander in chief of the. Of the Georgia forces. And he did, in fact, order McIntosh to invade East Florida, a British colony.

[Ben Bolin]

Huh?

[Commercial Voice]

It did not go well because McIntosh did not have the resources needed. He returned to Georgia, and then he proceeded to badmouth Button Gwinnett in front of the Georgia Assembly.

[Noel Brown]

You don't go Bad Mouth and Button in front of his own assembly, man.

[Commercial Voice]

A duel was arranged. McIntosh totally shot Button Gwinnett, and Button Gwinnett died about three days later. On May 19, 1777, a signer of the Declaration of Independence shot by a soldier who served in the Revolutionary Army.

[Ben Bolin]

So, no. No coral snakes whatsoever.

[Commercial Voice]

No coral snakes. He was at all not bitten by a snake. He was merely shot by a Scotsman.

[Noel Brown]

Shot by a Scotsman.

[Commercial Voice]

Just as fatal, as it turns out. I'm interested.

[Noel Brown]

Maybe I missed this. How did the Scotsman end up fighting for the American. American cause?

[Commercial Voice]

He was. He was given the position of Brigadier General. So they were both up for consideration for Brigadier general.

[Ben Bolin]

They were rivals.

[Commercial Voice]

And Button Gwinnett was passed over. Button Gwinnett's closest ally was Dr. Lyman Hall. And as you mentioned, we have a Gwinnett County. We also have a Hall County.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Commercial Voice]

That is where I am from Hall County.

[Noel Brown]

Okay.

[Ben Bolin]

Getting to know you. Is that where your lair is, in Hall County? No.

[Commercial Voice]

Heavens, no. Are you. I'm an old fourth ward man now.

[Ben Bolin]

Well, Jonathan, and what a tremendous pleasure to have finally started winning some of these. Right, Noel?

[Noel Brown]

I know, but I'm not getting enough remorse from you. I'm not sensing that's still three ahead. Well, I know, but I almost feel like you threw us a little bit of a softball with this one. And while I appreciate it, I also somewhat resent it.

[Commercial Voice]

Oh, then I'll come at you extra hard next time.

[Ben Bolin]

So what will happen next, Ridiculous historians? Will the tension continue to simmer? Will we get closer and closer to an even score? Or fall further into the hole? There's only one way to find out. Well, there are several. But there's one way we would like you to find out.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, you know, listen to the show.

[Commercial Voice]

Subscribe to my Twitter feed. You'll find out about it.

[Noel Brown]

Hey, now.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah. Hey, what's this other show?

[Commercial Voice]

I'm not at liberty to say, Noel.

[Ben Bolin]

What'S the other show?

[Noel Brown]

I have no idea.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, you guys are making me so paranoid.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, it's fine. That's part of the whole interaction here is paranoia. But seriously, thank you for coming again, Jonathan Strickland, the devious quizter. We appreciate it, slash resent it heavily.

[Ben Bolin]

Thanks for helping us learn stuff, man.

[Noel Brown]

That's true.

[Commercial Voice]

Love you, too.

[Noel Brown]

And thank you folks for tuning into the show. We hope you'll join us next time where we talk about a bunch of states that never were, that have a lot of fun names and stories and just listen to the episode. It'll be good. In the meantime, you can write to [e-mail] you can check us out on the typical social media channels. Our. Our preferred method of communication with our ridiculous historian community is through our Facebook group of that very name, Ridiculous Historians. And we actually just came out with an episode that featured some stuff from that very community, and we had a really good time doing it and we'll probably do it again. So check that out and drop some memes or stories or questions or ideas on there. You might hear it in an episode.

[Ben Bolin]

Yes, and you may well hear from us, from Casey Noll and myself about Big thanks, of course, as always, to super producer Casey Pegram. Big thanks to Alex Williams, who composed the track. You know what? Big thanks to everybody except Jonathan. Thanks to Christopher Haciotes. Jonathan, you got. You're making a stink face.

[Commercial Voice]

I love you too.

[Ben Bolin]

No, guys, I'm feeling the emanations of affection here.

[Noel Brown]

This is all enmity. Enmity is what you're feeling.

[Ben Bolin]

Well, the course of true love never did run smoothly. Thanks for tuning in, everyone.

[Noel Brown]

Goodbye. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia podcast.

[Holly Fry]

I'm Maria Tremarki and I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season we explore a new theme. From poisoners to art thieves.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.

[Maria Tremarki]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Damien Hirst]

Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here?

[Ben Bolin]

Ow. Go slower.

[Damien Hirst]

From Blumhouse TV iheart podc on ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi and what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Arturo Castro]

Hi, I'm Arturo Castro and I've been lucky enough to do stuff like Broad City and Narcos and Roadhouse. And now I'm starting a podcast because honest, honestly guys, I don't feel the space is crowded enough. Get ready for Greatest Escapes, a new comedy podcast about the wildest true escape stories in history. Each week I'll be sitting down with some of the most hilarious actors and writers and comedians. People like Ed Helms, Diane Guerrero, and Joseph Gordon Levitt.

[Ben Bolin]

I love storytelling and I love you.

[Noel Brown]

So I can't wait.

[Arturo Castro]

Listen and subscribe to Greatest escapes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction po podcast series, Cancellation island stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes, but don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch football, Anti racism, Spin class and man Mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the council to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing.

[Ben Bolin]

Karen, where have you brought us?

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Cancellation island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.