CLASSIC: The Bizarre Origin of the Oxford English Dictionary

Summary

Ridiculous History: CLASSIC — The Bizarre Origin of the Oxford English Dictionary

Podcast: Ridiculous History (iHeartPodcasts)
Episode Date: August 16, 2025
Hosts: Ben Bowlin, Christopher Haciotes (guest host, in for Noel Brown)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the truly bizarre and poignant history behind the creation of the Oxford English Dictionary (OED). Blending historical deep-dives with signature wit and word-nerd enthusiasm, hosts Ben Bowlin and guest host Christopher Haciotes unravel a story far stranger—and more tragic—than most people realize: the OED’s unusual process, its obsessive and reclusive contributors, and a shocking revelation about one of its central figures, Dr. William Chester Minor.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why the OED? Scope, Mission, and Challenges

• Dictionary Lovers Unite: Both hosts (and the regular, absent Noel) confess to a fascination with etymology, wordplay, and the evolution of language.

  “We’re both big fans of reference works, etymology, weird word facts, and the last word in dictionaries here is the Oxford English Dictionary.” — Ben [00:21]

• Project History: Work began in 1857 with a goal to collect and define every word from the 12th century onward. The real effort started around 1879, and it took 5 years more just to publish the first volume (1884).
• Unprecedented Undertaking:

  • The OED aimed to offer historical context for every word, not just a definition.

  • By its completion (1928), it spanned 12 volumes, over 400,000 words, and 2 million citations.

  • Methods included crowdsourcing word entries from the public, long before the term existed.

    “Imagine the task of speaking a language and thinking, you know, what, all these words... let’s catalog them... It’s a crazy undertaking. It’s wild.” — Christopher [10:00]

2. Key Personalities: Professor James Murray and the Challenge Ahead

• James Murray: Editor-in-chief, built a shed ("the Scriptorium") to house the growing pile of word entries, running the editorial effort with a small team.

• Scale Underestimated:

  “They thought, ‘This is going to take a decade…and will probably be…around 7,000 pages in four volumes.’ But they ended up with something much, much larger.” — Ben [11:03]

• Wordsmiths’ Humor: The Scriptorium becomes an in-joke—Ben vows to label part of their office as one, to general confusion. [12:42–13:09]

3. Dr. William Chester Minor—A Prolific, Mysterious Contributor

• Who Was He? Dr. Minor submitted over 10,000 entries. Known only as a medical man in Berkshire—nothing suspicious on the surface. [13:09]
• Deep Background:

  • Born in Ceylon (Sri Lanka) to missionary parents, raised in multiple cultures and languages.

  • Served as a surgeon in the American Civil War, witnessed and participated in grim acts (notably branding an Irish deserter by order). [16:04]

  • Severe mental trauma, likely exacerbating an underlying psychiatric condition (later classified as schizophrenia).

    “He saw incendiary attacks. He witnessed other soldiers burning to death.” — Christopher [15:56]

  • After the war, Minor struggled with PTSD, delusions, and erratic behavior, finally being released from service and later institutionalized.

4. The Lambeth Tragedy—Murder and Incarceration

• Downward Spiral:

  • Minor moved to London, his condition untreated and worsening. In a paranoid episode, he shot and killed George Merritt, an innocent brewery worker, mistaking him as an intruder. [26:06]

  • At trial, Minor was judged not guilty by reason of insanity, locked away in Broadmoor Asylum.

    “The full extent of Minor’s insanity becomes revealed for the first time in public... That’s part of what propels the Lambeth tragedy to the stage of international news.” — Ben [27:25]

• Life in Broadmoor:

  • Minor was granted remarkable privileges for the time, including two adjoining cells: one for living, one for housing his extensive book collection (secured through connections and U.S. consular intervention).

  • Through book dealers in Oxford, he learns the OED seeks contributors—thus begins his most productive era.

    “His body may be in these four walls, but it’s a way for him to send his thoughts and influence beyond his cell.” — Christopher [30:12]

5. Murray & Minor—Collaboration Without Meeting

• Collaborative Genius:

  • Minor’s unique access to rare books and erudition made his entries extraordinarily valuable.

  • He disguised his situation by always signing his mail with only his Broadmoor address, keeping his life a mystery for years.

    “Murray reasonably assumes that Miner must be, ‘a practicing medical man of literary taste with a good deal of leisure.’” — Ben [13:59]

    “His submissions might run the chance of being rejected... So he always signed his letters the same way: Broadmoor, Crowthorne, Berkshire.” — Ben [30:23]

• Eventual Revelation:

  • In 1897, at the “Great Dictionary Dinner,” Minor is invited but does not appear.

  • Murray decides to visit his elusive star contributor, thinking he’s going to a grand home—only to realize Minor is an inmate at Broadmoor. Their meeting is awkward but blossoms into a remarkable friendship.

    “He assumes that the director of the asylum is the famous and mysterious Dr. Minor. No, says the director: ‘The doctor is an inmate. Would you like to see his rooms?’” — Ben [34:20]

• Enduring Friendship: Despite Minor’s circumstances, Murray continued to visit and advocate for him—publicly praising Minor’s erudition and contributions.

  “We could easily illustrate the last four centuries from Dr. Miner’s quotations alone.” — Murray, quoted by Ben [38:39]

6. Tragedy and Legacy

• Mental Decline: Minor’s illness, delusions, and self-harm worsened (notably, a horrific act of self-castration during a paranoid episode). [42:56]
• Murray’s Advocacy: Murray personally campaigned for Minor’s release; after intervention by Winston Churchill, Minor was released and deported to the U.S., where he lived until 1920.
• Neither Man Saw the Final OED:

  • Murray died in 1915, Minor in 1920—the last OED volume was published in 1928.

    “Their life’s work ... they did not live to see a completion. But that’s the story of so many great accomplishments in human culture.” — Christopher [45:21]

  • Their collaboration became the subject of “The Professor and the Madman” by Simon Winchester (1998).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the OED’s Ambition:
  “It is comprised of 414,825 words defined, and it has almost 2 million citations employed to illustrate what they mean.” — Ben [11:03]

• On Historical Lexicography:
  “It was a lifelong pursuit for Murray and his team. The final volume...wasn’t published until 1928. That’s crazy.” — Christopher [09:21]

• Describing Minor’s Value:
  “His work was invaluable. And I really appreciate what you said about mental illness not negating somebody’s value or their worth in the world.” — Ben [49:00]

• On Selfless Legacy:
  “A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.” — Ben [46:46]

• True Crime Turn: The “Lambeth Tragedy”—the sudden pivot into a real murder mystery, complete with legal drama and Victorian asylum horror. [25:16–29:12]

• Word Nerd Joy:
  “Do you have an obscure word that you like? Oh gosh, that’s been stuck in your head recently?” — Ben [51:28]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Beginning & Dictionary Fandom: [00:00–07:15]
• How the OED was Compiled: [08:18–12:20]
• Professor James Murray and the Scriptorium: [11:03–13:09]
• Enter Dr. Minor: [13:09]
• Minor’s Civil War Trauma/Personal History: [14:29–17:05]
• Move to London, the Lambeth Murder: [21:13–27:25]
• Life in Broadmoor, OED Correspondence: [28:34–32:31]
• Murray’s Visit to Broadmoor, Their Friendship: [32:31–38:41]
• Minor’s Mental Decline, Release from Asylum: [42:56–44:45]
• The OED Completion, Legacy and Reflection: [44:45–49:00]
• Dictionaries in History, Audience Q&A: [49:25–53:03]
• Final Reflections & Farewell: [53:03–54:48]

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Tone & Style

The episode balances the Ridiculous History trademark blend of curiosity, playful humor, and a genuine passion for the quirky corners of the human record. Even as it explores the dark and tragic backdrop of its central character, the hosts maintain warmth and empathy.

Throughout, both Ben and Christopher highlight the enduring value of intellectual labor—no matter the circumstances or limitations of those who provide it.

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For Further Reading

• Book: “The Professor and the Madman: A Tale of Murder, Insanity, and the Making of the Oxford English Dictionary” by Simon Winchester (1998) [30:02]
• Related Article: Christopher references his work on archaic insults and invites listeners to share their favorite obscure words [51:28].

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Listener Engagement Prompts

• Comment on the Ridiculous Historians Facebook page with your favorite obscure/archaic word or dictionary anecdotes!
• Share stories about how you’ve used dictionaries—to spell, to define, and beyond.
• Join the playful “scriptorium” movement in your own home or office.

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“Here’s hoping that we can all get a chance to create something like this.” — Ben [47:34]

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Summary by Ridiculous History Podcast Summarizer
(Episode structured to be informative, entertaining, and useful for all word-lovers and history buffs—even if you haven’t listened.)

Transcript

[Ben]

Oh, fellow ridiculous historians, friends and neighbors. I don't know about you all, but this is one of my. Maybe not favorite of our classic episodes, but it's one that really stuck with me as a word nerd.

[Noel]

It's a bit of a pet subject for you, Ben. Wordery, Etymology.

[Ben]

Oh, wordplay.

[Noel]

Wordsmithery.

[Ben]

Ah. So say we all know. I know we're both. We're both big fans of reference works, etymology, weird word facts, and the last word in I heard it in dictionaries here in this language is the Oxford English Dictionary.

[Noel]

Or as I like to call it, the Oxford English Dictionary.

[Ben]

Yeah. Or the oed, if you're nasty. But the thing is, we started looking into the origin story here and we found something that was just a roller coaster, man.

[Noel]

Yeah, if you're a coaster head and an etymology fan and perhaps a bit of a wordsmith yourself, you're going to really dig this one. On the bizarre origin of the OED, aka the Oxford English Dictionary.

[Podcast Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[John Hope Bryant]

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[Lola Blanc]

So what happened to Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to.

[Christopher Haciotes]

There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and left a woman to drown. Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. Every week, we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

[AZ Fudd]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Christopher Haciotes]

Each week we talk to fellow survivors.

[Lola Blanc]

Former believers and experts to understand why people get pulled in and how they get out. Trust me. New episodes every Wednesday on Exactly right. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

I'm Jeff Perelman.

[Christopher Haciotes]

And I'm Rick Jervis. We're journalists and hosts of the podcast Finding Sexy Sweat.

[Ben]

At an internship in 1993, we roomed with Reggie Payne, aspiring reporter and rapper who went by Sexy Sweat a couple years ago.

[Christopher Haciotes]

We set out to find him, but.

[Ben]

In 2020, Red Dee fell into a coma after police pinned him down and he never woke up. But then I see my son's not moving.

[Christopher Haciotes]

So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own.

[Ben]

Listen to Finding Sexy Sweat on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio Foreign. We're here. We're live. While we're recording this live. Welcome to the show Ridiculous Historians. My name is Ben. We are, of course, joined with our super producer, Casey Pegram. My trusty co host Noel is off on some lovely adventures on the other side of the country, but will return very soon. Speaking of returning, we are incredibly fortunate today to have our returning guest host joining us, Christopher Haciotes. Thanks for coming, man.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Thanks for having me, Ben. Thanks for having me, Casey. Noel, wherever you are, whenever you are, however you are, thank you.

[Ben]

Yes. Oh, man. I can't wait until I hope we can reveal some of the cool stuff that Noel is working on.

[Christopher Haciotes]

What I really wish were happening right now is that we would talk about Noel not being here, and then anyone listening to this podcast would just slowly turn around and he's standing right behind them.

[Ben]

Oh, that's great.

[Christopher Haciotes]

No, that's my dream. It's my dream. It was also. It was Halloween recently, so maybe I'm still in that mindset. I'm definitely still in that mindset.

[Ben]

Oh, man. It's the most wonderful time of the year. I love Halloween. Hey, what did you do for Halloween?

[Christopher Haciotes]

Dressed up as a woodland creature? I was kind of wolfy. Took the family around the neighborhood and did not accept any candy because we've got a little baby who's not old enough for candy yet. And I would feel like a real bum taking candy from a baby. Well, no. Taking candy for a baby who couldn't eat it under the pretenses that it's really for me. And I. I'm a grown man. I can afford my own candy.

[Ben]

There you go. That speaks highly. That speaks to your character in a very complimentary way.

[Christopher Haciotes]

We'll see.

[Ben]

Your candy ethics are on point. I think that's something to be proud of.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Thank you.

[Ben]

I would have done the opposite.

[Christopher Haciotes]

You would have just taken a baby around?

[Ben]

Yes.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, I did think maybe it would Be fun to push a stroll around the neighborhood, but with no baby in there, and just be the person with an empty stroller.

[Ben]

Oh, that's weird. That's weird, Christopher.

[Christopher Haciotes]

But it's not Halloween anymore, right? We should divest these spooky thoughts from our souls.

[Ben]

I'm always so reluctant to give up the ghost on Halloween. But you're right. Things move on. Progress. That's the name of the game for the human species, hopefully, in theory. And today's episode is something that I thought would be fascinating for anybody who's a fan of words, anyone who's a fan of writing. Today's episode is about the strange origin of the Oxford English Dictionary. Now, this is something that you and I in particular have used pretty frequently over the years.

[Christopher Haciotes]

I have. Yeah. Dictionaries of many kinds I think come in super handy, whether you're a professional writer, whether you are an amateur writer, whether you don't really care about writing at all. But you want to know what a word means, you can look it up in the dictionary. It's a great thing.

[Ben]

Yeah. And it's funny that you mentioned this, because Noel and I will often have conversations where one of us is on a rant about something, and then we decide to use a word because it sounds particularly enticing, you know, only to later, usually when it's just the two of us hanging out, only for us to later go, okay, one of us needs to look that up and make sure it means what we think it means.

[Christopher Haciotes]

We're using the right meaning where you were saying it properly. I mean, that's what the dictionary is for. But also that's what Facebook is for, too.

[Ben]

Right.

[Christopher Haciotes]

And social media. I think anyone who is anyone in the podcast world is very familiar with mispronounced words. There's a lot of words out there, and you might accidentally say something a little incorrectly, but we rely on people like ridiculous historians, the Facebook group associated with this fine podcast, to point out in a constructive and critical manner any foible, any misstep, any misuse of award, award.

[Ben]

Oh, man, you really put us on the tightrope here, man. All right, well, let's give it a go. The Oxford English Dictionary has been around for a long time, but perhaps not as long as many of us would. Would assume. The work on the dictionary began, I guess, in a larger historical context. This is fairly recent. It began in 1857.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, well, that's when there was a call put out for a collection of words, a definition of words spanning the 12th century to the Present day. At the time, work actually didn't get underway, though, until the late 1870s, 1879, I believe. And it took five years for the first volume of the OED, as the kids on the street call it, to be published.

[Ben]

Right, right. And here we introduce our first character for this story, a fellow named Professor James Murray. It was a challenging assignment for Murray, who was the editor of this, of this dictionary. The way the process worked was relatively simple. People would send in entries for words. And the Oxford English Dictionary functions as what's called historical dictionary, meaning it will talk about the development of a word rather than just its present day usage. So you'll see a little bit of etymology in the dictionary.

[Christopher Haciotes]

You'll see a lot of etymology. I mean, the thing about the Oxford English Dictionary is it doesn't just give you the definition of the word. Right. It goes into the history of the word. We said the first volume of the dictionary wasn't published until 1884. I mean, this was a lifelong pursuit for Murray and his team. The final volume of the dictionary wasn't published until 1928. That's crazy.

[Ben]

Yeah, that's insane. And it took a lot of blood, sweat and tears because we have to remember it was much more difficult to aggregate information back then. You know what I mean? These people had to literally write this stuff out, usually by hand, and send it via post.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah. A majority of us in the modern world, and I would assume most of us listening to this podcast, we live in a wealth of information. We have so many things available to us, we have so much knowledge available to us. But I think it's really, really, really easy to take that for granted. Right. Like you just look something up. But for you to look something up, another human being had to have put that thing in a place for it to be searchable in the first place. So, I mean, imagine the task of speaking a language and thinking, you know, what all these words we just said in the past 20 seconds, I just used 40 of them. Let's catalog them, let's itemize them, let's label them. I mean, this is. It's a. It's a crazy undertaking. It's wild. You have to define what a language is, what is inside the language, what's outside the language. You have to talk to linguistics, you have to talk to anthropologists, you have to talk to authors and books and what's gobbledygook, right? Which is that in the dictionary? I don't know. I believe I do, actually.

[Ben]

It is in there, isn't it? Yeah. So that. I think that's a very good way to paint the picture here. Professor James Murray knew this was going to be a huge, laborious, Herculean effort. However, he underestimated the enormity of the task. When they first agreed to edit this new English dictionary, they thought, this is going to take a decade, and this will probably be, gosh, I don't know, guys. Around 7,000 pages long in four volumes. Let's call it four volumes. But they ended up with something much, much larger. By the time the final results are published in 1928, it's 12 volumes long. It is comprised of 414,825 words defined, and it has almost 2 million citations employed to illustrate what they mean. As Murray is working on this, he builds a corrugated iron shed that he decides to call the Scriptorium. And the scriptorium houses him and his small team of assistants, as well as this deluge of slips of paper that have been mailed to them that are each, you know, an entry in the dictionary.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah. And this is all taking place in the uk, so this is just one country, you know.

[Ben]

Right.

[Christopher Haciotes]

This isn't even trying to get the breadth of global knowledge. I do really like the name Scriptorium. I imagine Murray having a rough day at home. Maybe the kids are being kind of a pain, and he storms out of his house, slams the door and says, I'm going to the scriptorium. I can't handle this. To the scriptorium.

[Ben]

To the Scriptorium.

[Christopher Haciotes]

I love it.

[Ben]

I am just going to start saying that I am going to find something in our office. I'm going to label it the Scriptorium. It won't be this studio that's too on the nose. But I'm looking for a scriptorian.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Next time you shout, I'm off to the scriptorium. I am really excited to see all of our co workers look around bemusedly and confusedly and befuddledly. But you and I will share something.

[Ben]

There we go. I'll know what you're doing and you for listening. Casey, are you in on this?

[Christopher Haciotes]

I'm totally in.

[Ben]

Casey. On the case, ladies and gentlemen. So as people are responding to this call, this crowdsourcing of dictionary entries, Professor Murray begins to notice that there's one shining star out of all of his correspondence. The most prolific, the most consistent correspondent, the man who has sent in more than 10,000 entries to this developing dictionary, a guy named Dr. William C Minor. All that Murray knows about Miner is that he is a Doctor who is a surgeon. He lives in Crowthorne in the English countryside in Berkshire. And Murray reasonably assumes that Miner must be, quote, a practicing medical man of literary taste with a good deal of leisure. Lesio, I like.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah. Sounds like the kind of guy who would send in entries to the dictionary. The Dictionary project. Did they call it the Dictionary Project at the time? I think they did. I mean, dictionaries existed before the oed, so I think the word probably was out there.

[Ben]

And here's where we introduce our second character, Dr. William Chester Minor.

[Christopher Haciotes]

An American. Yeah, yeah. So you've got this American guy who's contributing to one of the pillars of the English language. What do we know about Dr. Miner?

[Ben]

Well, we know that, as you said, he does reside in the uk. He was an American. Not only an American, but a surgeon. Not only a surgeon, but a veteran.

[Christopher Haciotes]

A veteran, but he also had sort of a global background. Right. So he existed in a world where many languages were available to him. His parents were from New England, they were missionaries. And Minor was actually born in Ceylon, which today is known as Sri Lanka. So he grew up in the son of. The son of Americans in a former British colony. A lot of languages are kind of swirling around him. He's in that milieu. He comes back to the US and he ends up fighting in the Civil War. He's fighting, but he's working as a surgeon. Right. So he's a medical doctor. He's in the Civil War. He experiences some horrific things, as many people did. But it seems to have really taken a toll on Dr. Minor, on his mental health, on his well being. It was really rough stuff. I mean, he was in situations where he saw sort of incendiary attacks. He witnessed other soldiers burning to death.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Christopher Haciotes]

This is terrible. Ben, I don't know if you know about this, but what Dr. Miner was ordered to do to a certain deserter.

[Ben]

Right. Yeah. It's terrible story. So he served, as you said, in various incredibly bloody conflicts, including the Battle of the wilderness in 1864, which was a bloodbath. The particular story we're talking about now concerns an Irish soldier in the Union Army. Miner was told to punish the soldier, carry out his punishment by branding him on the face with a hot iron. With a capital D for deserter.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah. So this was. Was an Irish citizen who was fighting for the cause of the Union, but decided he was done with the battle, wanted to leave. Wanted to leave the army, was, I assume, captured, put in the brig, and Minor was ordered to brand this guy against his wishes. Against the wishes of both of them, I think.

[Ben]

And this haunts him. This affects him for the rest of his life.

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[Ben]

At the end of the American Civil War, he is still serving. He's in New York City for a time. He spends a lot of his time living in the seedy underbelly of New York. If he's not working, he's off in the red light district cavorting, having some frolic time. Right.

[Christopher Haciotes]

I mean, it's not uncommon for soldiers who come home from war to have a really rough time, to look for solace in places they might not otherwise have in the past, to have a hard time keeping things together, to undertake risky activity, to. I mean, even to see things that aren't there, to imagine a reality that doesn't line up with the reality experienced by the majority of us.

[Ben]

Absolutely. And by 1867, the army is completely done with his behavior. They find that it is unethical and amoral. So they transfer him to a remote post in Florida and we're gonna let's Pause right there. Because Professor Murray doesn't know any of this. He doesn't know anything about minors past. He only knows that the guy has medical knowledge, seems to be living in either retirement or he's relatively well off. And the guy has a lot of time on his hands and he loves words.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah. So that's a little background about minor. And, and. And minor is sending in these entries to the Oxford English Dictionary project to Professor Murray. And they seem to be really great entries. They're really detailed, they're really varied, they are voluminous, they are deeply researched.

[Ben]

What Professor Murray did not know was that his most faithful correspondent and contributor was writing to him from a lunatic asylum where he was confined for committing homicide.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ben]

That's the strangest part of it. And it sounds like something you could maybe have a weird nervous laugh about, but the story itself is quite tragic. It turns out that that Dr. Miner was not in full possession of his faculties.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah. And at this point, he had moved to London.

[Ben]

Right, Right. Okay. So he was diagnosed in 1868 as delusional. And he was considered a suicide and homicide risk. So with his consent, he was admitted to the government Hospital for the insane in Washington D.C. and officially retired from the U.S. army. In 1871, he was released and he visited his family and friends and they boarded a ship to London, hoping that a change of scenery would, quote, cure him. But his paranoia followed him across the Atlantic.

[Christopher Haciotes]

And that's a not uncommon treatment at the time. I mean, we're back in the days before modern psychology, certainly before modern psychiatric drugs and any sort of treatment, talk therapy, any sort of rehabilitation like that. I mean, there's just a lunatic asylum or a change of scenery. You know, maybe. Maybe something different will be nice for him. Maybe being in the United States is reminding him of the horrors he witnessed. Maybe he's too close to the brothels. Let's just. Let's send him to England.

[Ben]

Yeah. And his family had the means to support this travel because it was an opportunity that many people at the time could not have reasonably pursued. But the problem was that his untreated mental condition began to worsen. He was having delusions, he was having crazy mood swings, and he was sinking deeper and deeper into paranoia. Particularly as his condition escalated, he would become more and more fixated on paranoid thoughts about people with Irish nationality due to that horrible story we mentioned earlier, where he had to brand the guy in the face. He settles originally in a place called Lambeth.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah. And Lambeth street is. It's in London, it's kind of a seedy neighborhood. And this, I think, is the point when we should introduce the next character in this tale, this tragedy, if we want to call it a tragedy. We're not the only ones, because this is what ends up being called at the time, the Lambeth Tragedy. George Merritt is the next entry into this tale. George Merritt is a working man. He takes a walk every day to the Red Lion Brewery in London. And one day he's taking a walk and he encounters Dr. Miner.

[Ben]

And Dr. Miner, who is in the grips of a mental episode, feels threatened. Right by George. Merritt believes that Merritt has broken into his room at some point and shoots and kills George.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, and this is where I. You know, I tried to find some newspaper reports from the time, and it's really unclear to me, and I think this is just the case in reporting at the time. But I don't know exactly whether Merritt was trying to enter a door near where Minor was living, or if this happened near the brewery or. Well. So the records show that Merritt was shot in the back as he was walking away from Minor.

[Ben]

Right.

[Christopher Haciotes]

So Minor perhaps was in his home experiencing one of these delusions and just burst out onto the street and thought that the first person he saw was the imagined culprit.

[Ben]

And, of course, the authorities become involved. There is a trial, and during the trial, the full extent of Minor's insanity becomes revealed for the first time in public. And that's part of what propels the Lambeth tragedy to the stage of international news. Minor is eventually judged not guilty on grounds of insanity, and he is sent to be detained in England's newest asylum. But they don't ever say how long he's going to be there.

[Christopher Haciotes]

I think this is the sort of thing where, you know, on the one hand, you can see this as an enlightened treatment. You know, he's not just put to death for murder. You know, it seems like they're doing the nice thing. They're sending him off to a place where he can be away from people he might harm. But there's an understanding that there's something not chemically operating in the mind. It's maybe not entirely his fault. Right. So he's sent to Broadmoor, which is a place for the criminally insane. That sounds like a nice thing, but the conditions weren't amazing. And people at the time, you know, it's not like they were called patients. They weren't treated as folks with a medical issue. The people at Broadmoor were referred to as criminals or as lunatics. Basically, you're looking at a situation where you're put in a room, the door is locked, and there's not a lot of treatment. You're just removed from society. Minor did have his own cell, and Minor actually had a second cell. Right. So he had two adjoining cells, the second of which was used for his significantly voluminous collection of antiquarian books.

[Ben]

That's right. He was living the high life compared to other inmates or other patients. But they didn't call them patients, they call them lunatics and criminals. Right.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And so he had this extensive collection of books. He was a very. He was a very well read person. And the American Vice Consul General directly intervened to allow Dr. Miner to have these amenities.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Right. Although he's in England and he had committed his crime there, he's still a US citizen and a veteran of the Union Army. So there's some consideration being given.

[Ben]

And. And he has correspondence as well, the entire time. He has relationships with book dealers, booksellers in Oxford in particular. And it is through this association that he hears about the open call for submissions to what will become the Oxford English Dictionary. And so a lot of this is lost to history, but we can reasonably imagine what Dr. Miner's reaction was. It's not like he's gonna go travel anywhere. It's not like he is living a super stressful life full of deadlines. As recounted in a fantastic book called the professor and the A Tale of Murder, Insanity and the Making of the Oxford English Dictionary by Simon Winchester.

[Christopher Haciotes]

And that came out in 1998.

[Ben]

Yes, that is correct. As recounted in this book, Minor saw this as somewhat of an escape. You know what I mean?

[Christopher Haciotes]

It's a way to. His body may be in these four walls, but it's a way for him to send his thoughts and his influence beyond his cell.

[Ben]

Absolutely. And it's a necessary escape. Right. But he knew, regardless of his stability of time, he knew that his submissions might run the chance of being rejected. Essentially, he might not be able to play the game if he revealed too much about himself. So he always signed his letters the same way. Broadmoor, Crowthorne, Berkshire. And that means his identity remained enigmatic to everybody who's working on the dictionary for years and years and years. Murray and Minor never meet.

[Christopher Haciotes]

No. And at this point, he kind of builds up his own reputation, not based on who he is, not based on the letters after his name. If he's a, you know, you don't have this weight of authority from your job, from your name, from your class. This Authority that he gains with the OED project is based solely on his work. And through these submissions, I mean, they prove invaluable because he's got this collection of antiquarian books, but books that are out of print, books that are ancient, books that are not widely used. So he's combing through these books. He comes up with this massive index of thousands of words. He defines them. He provides their use in a sentence, which sounds like a spelling bee kind of thing, but that's how you know what a word is. And the way you define a word is to see how it's used. And if you want to look at a word that you don't know or that other people don't know, you have to show how it has been used in the past. And that's where his collection of books comes in super handy.

[Ben]

Yeah, and eventually you'll hear a couple different counts of this, but eventually, Murray decides that he has to meet his most valuable contributor. And this comes to a head. In 1897, there's an event they're going to hold called the Great Dictionary Dinner. And Murray is very much looking forward to meeting his mysterious again, most prolific, most accurate correspondent. But the guy doesn't show up.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, so, I mean, they've been working on this dictionary. They put all this work into it. They have all these different contributors. They have people they rely on greatly. I mean, think of this as the, you know, on. On. On Wikipedia, the people who have the verified accounts on the. On Yelp, the super whatever, Yelper, you know, like he. He's one of the insiders, and he's invited, we're told, and he doesn't show up, right?

[Ben]

And so Miner says, you know what? I'm gonna be the change. I'm gonna go visit this guy. So he travels to Broadmoor and he sees this. We can paint this scene here. He sees this huge Victorian mansion. And he's justifying those assumptions, right? They feel like they're being verified.

[Christopher Haciotes]

He says, okay, well, yeah, I mean, he'd never been there. The story goes that he thought so he had this address. And so he thinks, like, okay, like, this must be where a professor lives, or a doctor, a medical man. Yeah, yeah, A nice house. So he shows up and he sees this massive institution. He says, huh, I thought I was going to someone's house. This is an institution.

[Ben]

I guess he's mailing me from his office.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, he. Or he's probably the director or something like that, right?

[Ben]

So he. So he's starting to realize things are a little wonky. And he's just finding the most plausible explanation he can for it. And like you say, Christopher, he thinks, okay, well, this guy is a director of this asylum. Because he could see the sign. He knows it's an asylum now.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah. And it may even have lightning bolts in the background or something. That's how I imagine when you happen upon an asylum that you didn't know was an asylum. Thunder and lightning.

[Ben]

You've all been there. And the storm begins and you have to stay there for the night. Right.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah. The strings start rising and the fog starts rolling in.

[Ben]

Or we're so not done with Halloween.

[Christopher Haciotes]

It's in me forever.

[Ben]

So he goes to. This is a true story, folks. He goes into the asylum, he meets the director of the asylum. And he assumes that the director of the asylum is the famous and mysterious Dr. Miner. No, says the director. The doctor is an inmate. Would you like to see his rooms? To which Murray says, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

[Christopher Haciotes]

To paint a picture for listeners and ridiculous historians out there. At this point, what Dr. Miner looks like is a little wizened, fully bearded. I would describe him as sort of a cross between Dumbledore. There's a little bit of Dumbledore and a little bit of Gandalf. Gandalf. The white, not the gray. Cause he's got this, like, massive white beard. You know, it's like, very professorial, but very learned looking. But clearly has been kind of locked up for a while.

[Ben]

Yeah. And has just very. In professor the Mad Men, he is described as having very gentle eyes that make him somewhat resemble portraits of Monet.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Which I thought was poetic and very kind. We do want to say there is one indication that Murray had some inkling of something being wrong with Dr. Minor. Because a visitor from America in the late 1880s had thanked Murray for his kindness to poor Dr. Minor. He didn't really know.

[Christopher Haciotes]

He knew something was up. Yeah. If you read the Winchester book, you'll find that there's that story which we've just recounted, which is kind of the summarized and popularized version of events. Winchester really digs into that and kind of calls into question how true it is and. Or how close to true it is. As you mentioned, there's some question about what Murray knew and when and the time of events. And this story did come out at the time and I think was probably kind of summarized and popularized by newspapermen at the time.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah. They were writing about it as it was occurring. We do know, however, that when they finally did meet, they became genuine friends for a long time. And Murray would continue to visit Minor at the asylum.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Again, this is the sort of. It's the sort of relationship built on words and work and trust built that way. So you could consider it a 19th century catfishing if you want, but I don't see it that way. You know, they saw the value in one another. Murray valued the knowledge of Minor. And I think this is also a good lesson. I don't know that the lesson was taken at the time, but I think for us looking back, it's a really valuable way to see that people who are incarcerated, people who have mental conditions, people who are struggling with debilitation, don't lose their value either to themselves, to their friends, or to society. You can have a mental breakdown. You can lose an aspect of your personality or your life. That doesn't mean you've lost your intelligence. It doesn't mean you've lost the knowledge you've accrued over the years. Again, we can also, you know, I. I feel like films like A Beautiful Mind or these, these sort of other films can romanticize mental illness too, and say that it's a. That it's. It's a struggle that's got to be overcome. It's a tricky line. I mean, it's. It's a. It's a messy thing to deal with.

[Ben]

Absolutely. And sometimes there are no clear answers for how best to navigate the situation, especially back then. And it just speaks, it speaks so highly to Professor Murray's character that he doesn't reject this guy. He sees, as you said, Christopher, the merit of Miner's work. And he continues to visit him and he says, you know what? Nobody's perfect. But this guy is great at assembling these citations, hunting stuff down for him. We need to keep him in the game. And he spoke very highly of Miner for the rest of his life in 1899. He said we could easily illustrate the last four centuries from Dr. Miner's quotations alone.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, I mean, his work was invaluable.

[Ben]

His work was invaluable. And unfortunately, his condition continued to worsen.

[Manny]

Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this.

[Lola Blanc]

Attention passengers, the pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone, to land this plane.

[Manny]

Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control.

[Christopher Haciotes]

And they're saying, like, okay, pull this.

[Manny]

Until this, pull that, turn this. It's just. I can do my eyes closed. I'm Manny.

[Christopher Haciotes]

I'm Noah. This is Devin.

[Manny]

And on our new show, no Such Thing, we get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise.

[Manny]

And then as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what? Oh, that's the Runway. I'm looking at this thing.

[Ben]

See?

[Manny]

Listen to no such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lola Blanc]

In 1920, a magazine article announced something incredible. Two young girls had photographed real fairies. But even more extraordinary than the magazine articles claim was the identity of the man who wrote the article. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. The man who wrote Sherlock Holmes. Yes. The man who invented literature's most brilliant detective was fooled by two girls into thinking fairies were real. How did they do it? And why does it seem like so many smart people keep falling for outlandish tricks? These are the questions where we explore in Hoax, a new podcast from me, Dana Schwartz, the host of Noble Blood, and me, Lizzy Logan. Every episode, we'll explore one of the most audacious and ambitious tricks in history, from the fake Shakespeares to balloon boys, and try to answer the question of why we believe what we believe. Listen to Hoax on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

A foot washed up, a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.

[Podcast Announcer]

These are the coldest of cold cases. But everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA Using new scientific tools. They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.

[Ben]

He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.

[Podcast Announcer]

On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors, and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at othram, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[AZ Fudd]

Hey, guys, it's AZ Fudd. You may know me as a gold medalist. You may know me as an NCAA national champion and recent most outstanding player. You may even know me as the people's Princess. But now you're also gonna know me as your favorite host. Every week on my new podcast, Fut around and Find Out, I'll give you an inside look at everything happening in my crazy life as I try to balance it all, from my travels across the globe to preparing for another run at the natty with my UConn Huskies, to just trying to make it to my midterms on time. You'll get the inside scoop on everything. I'll be talking to some special guests about pop culture, basketball and what it's like to be a professional athlete on and off the court. You'll even get to have some fun with the Fudd family. So if you follow me on social media or watch me on tv, you may think you know me, but this show is the only place where you can really fud around and find out. Listen to FUT around and find out. A production of iHeart Women's Sports in partnership with Unanimous Media on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

In 1902, he began having delusions that he was being abducted from his rooms at night and taken around the world, where he was forced to commit sexual assault. And because of this, during one delusional episode, he castrated himself, which is a very messy thing. Luckily, you know, he's a surgeon, so he at least knew enough to do it without killing himself. And his health continue to worsen.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, that's not the sort of thing that's going to push your health into a better place.

[Ben]

True. And Murray, his faithful friend, now not just a colleague, begins a campaign on Miner's behalf. And he says, this guy has been locked up in here for decades. He's one of the most important contributors to what I feel is one of the most important books in the world. After the Bible, he's harmless. Can we let him out? And so Miner is, by direct orders from Home Secretary Winston Churchill, released from the asylum in 1910. He's released, he's instantly deported back to the United States. And he lives at St. Elizabeth's Hospital, where he is officially diagnosed with what at the time they called dementia praecox, which was a chronic, deteriorating psychotic disorder that usually began in late teens or early adulthood. This term was gradually. Eventually replaced by the term schizophrenia.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, so it's the kind of thing that he likely was experiencing internally, physically, and then was, I don't know, triggered or enhanced by his experiences in the war.

[Ben]

Right, Exactly. Exactly. And in 1920, Dr. Minor passes away in Hartford, Connecticut. He had been moved in 1919 to a retreat for the elderly insane. James Murray passes away in 1915. And if you'll remember from our earlier mention of the dictionary, the final results of the Oxford English Dictionary were not published until 1928. So neither Dr. Minor nor Professor Murray ever got to witness or direct. You know, they never got to hold the book.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, their life's work. It literally was their life's work, and they did not live to see a completion. I mean, but that's. That's the story of so many great accomplishments in. In human culture. I mean, you think about something like the Sagrada Familia Cathedral in Barcelona, that. That Gaudi was working on it. He died decades ago, and it's still underway. You know, it's. I think it's admirable to think that you might contribute something to human knowledge and to human culture, that you will put a process in motion. And, you know, granted, Murray. Murray thought it would just take a. A brief period of time to wrap up this dictionary thing, put a couple words on a page, this, that, and the other, and we're done. No, I mean, we're talking like it goes well into the twenties, but to. To set something in motion that goes beyond yourself is something, you know, not a lot of us get to do. And learning the stories of the people behind these contributions to society is so valuable because, I mean, you think about, like, the mathematicians, for instance, the women who contributed to the NASA missions that were written about in hidden figures, and there was a movie based on that. It's super important for us to know that everything we're talking about in history was accomplished through human undertaking. You just gotta decide to do something, get past any structural roadblocks that are in the way, but push forward. And, I mean, people can accomplish some really great things.

[Ben]

Yeah. It calls to mind that old proverb. What is it? A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in. Have you ever heard that one?

[Christopher Haciotes]

I haven't. I like it.

[Ben]

Yeah. That's the kind of inspiring, noble thing. We know that the Oxford English Dictionary is, in a very real way, a guidepost for the entirety of the English language. And, you know, I think we misuse the word sometimes, but it's. It's noble. It's truly noble to be able to participate in something of that. Of that level of significance. And here's hoping that we can all get a chance to create something like this.

[Christopher Haciotes]

That's a tall order, but we can try.

[Ben]

What, you don't want to work on a dictionary with me for the rest of your life.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Tell me about your benefits. What are you offering?

[Ben]

I've got a special on. I've got a special on Doritos because of my relationship with Robert Evans on Behind the Bastards.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Ben, have you ever. Have you ever. Actually. So have you accessed the OED digitally? Have you held a copy of the book itself? I have, yeah. I mean, these things are massive. Like the huge books. So dense. The one now that. Or like the most current one that was kind of set in stone in the 90s has like 500,000 words. I don't know if you've seen this. Some friends of mine and I a while ago gave a friend this as a wedding present. But you can buy the entire Oxford English Dictionary in a compressed version. So it's kind of like the size of a big book, but it's in two volumes, kind of hardbound, comes in a box, but it's the whole thing in there. And it comes with a magnifying glass.

[Ben]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Christopher Haciotes]

The print is so small, you've really got to get in there. But it's all of it. I mean, we're talking like more than 2 million citations. It's so dense.

[Ben]

And look, that magnifying glass is not some cutesy marketing thing. You need it.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben]

And I don't know how people will react to this story. I'm fascinated by it. I find it inspiring, you know, and I really appreciate what you said about mental illness not negating somebody's value or their worth in the world. And, Christopher, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on this show this week. Thanks for coming back. After the first episode. I thought you might be done.

[Christopher Haciotes]

No, no, I stuck around this week. But, yeah, if you'll have me back, I'll happily be back. I do want to mention one more thing about dictionaries. Just in general, I think they're super cool, and we talk about these things that just sort of exist. But the very first dictionary that we had in the English language was put together in the 1600s, and it was a product of cultural mixing. It was a product of the Renaissance. It was a product of English incorporating so many words from other languages, from French, from Latin, from Greek, and from Hebrew. The first dictionary was really just a guide to what at the time were weird words or, like, a difficult one. So the very first dictionaries back in the 16th and 17th century CE, they weren't comprehensive. It was just like, okay, everybody knows the words we use here's. A description of the hard ones.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christopher Haciotes]

And I want to hear from some of the ridiculous historians out there. Maybe you guys can comment on the Facebook page. Because when I was growing up, when I was using dictionaries, I always had that one friend who would use the dictionary to learn how to spell a word, which always seemed crazy to me, because how do you look up a word if you don't know how to spell the word already? But I know I'm not the only one who knows someone like that. I think even in the Miracle Worker, Right? Maybe someone in there uses the dictionary as a spelling guide. Maybe Keller herself. I don't know. But I know I'm not the only one out there who's experienced this. Does anyone out there do that, or do you just use it to define things? I've always used it to define things.

[Ben]

I've used it to define things. I guess you could use it to find the spelling of a word by attempting to stumble through it kinetically. You've got a guess.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Pre autocorrect.

[Ben]

Tell you what's a real pain, man, Trying to look up words in English Demandarian Dictionary just because of the different. The ideograms versus the. It's a whole thing.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah.

[Ben]

So I also want to add a request to ridiculous historians when this episode comes out. Could you visit us on our Facebook page and let us know some of your favorite obscure words? We are enamored with strange, unusual, and anachronistic words, and it's no secret that the English language is chock full of them. You know what I mean? Do you have an obscure word that you like? Oh, gosh, that's been stuck in your head recently.

[Christopher Haciotes]

You know, one of the nice things about working here at How Stuff Works is you get to dive into all sorts of weird stuff. And I did write a piece for the website a year or so ago on archaic insults on words that were insulting a while ago and that today have fallen out of fashion. And I think that was kind of brought to light by the time our president and the leader of a certain nation on the Korean peninsula were trading barbs back and forth and. And people were like, what's a dotard? And so. So we decided to investigate not only that, but a bunch of other words like slumgallian. And I'm. I'm drawing a blank on something.

[Ben]

Otherhead is probably one.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. But anyway, I mean, all of this, it just amounts to words, words, words. We can post a link on the. On the Facebook page Ridiculous historians. I'll post a link to that article so you guys can inform yourselves. And that does it for me. I mean, unless you need anything else from me.

[Ben]

No, come back, hang out. Let's go, let's go, let's go. Hit the scene. And as we said, our trusty co host Noel is out adventuring. But Christopher, you mentioned that you're hoping he's just directly behind somebody.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Wait, is he? Should I turn it? Noel.

[Ben]

Hey, Noel. How's it going?

[Noel]

Well, hey, you guys, it's me, Noel. I'm in Los Angeles in my hotel room in the Hollywood Roosevelt, which apparently is where Marilyn Monroe died. I've been watching the haunting of Hill House alone in this creepy hotel by myself at night. I think I'm still kind of on east coast brain. Haven't quite made the switch yet. So I've been feeling like I've been seeing some apparitions hovering around this room. Really Bougie canopy bed that I'm in, laying in right now, in fact, podcasting to you fine people. I'm really glad that Christopher was able to sit in and talk about the Oxford English Dictionary. That's pretty cool. Sorry if I sound a little out of it. I've been working late nights and getting up early and as far as I'm concerned, I don't even know what time it is right now. But Godspeed, ridiculous historians to you and yours and Christopher and Ben and I'll see you. You on the flip side, if I return and don't get murdered by ghosts in the night.

[Ben]

And that's it for today. Christopher, I hope that you make this a habit. I hope you return to shed some more light on some of these strange stories of human civilization. And I let you off easy this time, pal. But next time, I'd love to hear some more weird cover songs.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Ben, I can do it for you. Thank you. Thanks, Ben. Thanks, Noel. Thanks, Casey. You guys listening out there? Thanks for. Thanks for having me.

[Ben]

And we'll see you again next week.

[Noel]

For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[I]

I'm here on the job site with Dale, who's a framing contractor.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Hey, good morning.

[I]

Dale traded up to Geico completely commercial auto insurance for all his business vehicles. We're here where he needs us most.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yep, they sure are.

[I]

We make it easy for him to save on all his insurance needs all in one place with coverage that fits his business and bottom line. Oh, I shouldn't have looked down.

[Ben]

It's all right.

[I]

We're so far up here.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Look at me.

[Ben]

Take a deep breath.

[I]

I'm good. So good.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Get a commercial auto insurance quote [e-mail] and see how much you could save. Get more with geico. I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, a different type of podcast. You, the listener, ask the questions.

[Ben]

Did George Washington really cut down a cherry tree?

[Christopher Haciotes]

Were JFK and Marilyn Monroe having an affair? And I find the answers. I'm so glad you asked me this question.

[Lola Blanc]

This is such a ridiculous story.

[Christopher Haciotes]

You can listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[John Hope Bryant]

It's Black Business Month and Money and wealth podcast with John Hope Bryant is tapping in. I'm breaking down how to build wealth, create opportunities, and move from surviving to thriving. It's time to talk about ownership, equity, and everything in between. Black and brown communities have historically been last in line. Let me just say this AI is moving faster than civil rights legislation ever did. Listen to Money and Wealth from the Black Effect podcast network on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Podcast Announcer]

Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime on the new podcast, America's Crime Lab. Every case has a story to tell, and the DNA holds the truth.

[Ben]

He never thought he was going to get caught, and I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.

[Christopher Haciotes]

This technology's already solving so many cases.

[Podcast Announcer]

Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.