C (3:03)

You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, health care, retirement options, and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com.

B (3:32)

Listen to High Key, a new weekly podcast. You better listen. Speaking of tanning, I was sunning my nether regions because I read that you're supposed to, like, get sun not only in your mouth, but also in your other orifices. Wait, are you talking about you put your hole into the sun? I did. That's crazy. Downward dog mooning the sun. I was gonna say. Is it cheeks open?

A (3:53)

It's cheeks open all the way wide.

B (3:55)

Is it cheeks open? Uh huh. Who's holding them? Enough of that nonsense. Now listen to High key on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

A (4:08)

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartrad. Let's cut straight to the chase with some fairly terrifying numbers. During the early modern period of European history that stretches from around 1450 to 1750, somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 people, the overwhelming majority of them being women, were tried for the crime of witchcraft. And about half of these folks, 50,000, were executed, usually by being burned alive.

B (5:03)

But why, Ben? Why?

A (5:05)

Because they were suspected of being witches, Noel.

B (5:08)

Ah, yes, the great witch panic of those years you mentioned.

A (5:13)

Yeah, the great 300 year witch panic.

B (5:17)

Yeah, that was a big one.

A (5:19)

That's a big one. That was a big one. It was. That's why it's the great witch panic and not the mediocre witch panic, the.

B (5:24)

Other lesser witch panic.

A (5:26)

Hey, let's give a shout out to our super, Casey Pegram, who to our knowledge has never, in fact hunted witches. That's true, right, Casey?

E (5:37)

That is correct, yes.

A (5:39)

No witch hunting in my past, Casey on the case.

B (5:43)

That's good. That's good to know because it's not a very noble pursuit. No, yeah, we read about it in history, some of the most famous ones being like the Salem Witch Trials, the one that was famously depicted in the Crucible, the play by Arthur Miller. And it typically involves a bunch of overzealous religious nuts looking for something that just is not there.

A (6:07)

Right. It's strange because I had studied this in the past. There's a book I want to recommend called the Devil in the Shape of a Witchcraft in Colonial New England. And one of the most interesting things about the witch hunting hysteria and the practice that continued for so long in central Europe, well, most of Europe and in the colonial US or what would become the US is that in many cases there were people who genuinely believed that some occult or supernatural event was occurring. But there were also people who were prosecuting these cases out of a more cynical, self interested motivation. Because you see, if you could prove that someone was a witch in a lot of jurisdictions, their belongings and their estate would later go to you.

B (7:01)

I did not know that, Ben.

A (7:02)

So it was a way to disenfranchise women.

B (7:04)

Oh, not only disenfranchise women, it was a way to persecute women for their sexuality. And a lot of the language in the book we're gonna talk about today, the Malleus Maleficarum revolves around women being temptresses in some way or somehow using their sexuality to lure to be tools of Satan in some way making them more open to satanic influence. So it's in large part a way of punishing women for their sexuality because a lot of these men were either used to just controlling women in the form of a wife or in the form of being some sort of higher up in a community and having expecting to be kowtowed to at all times by members of the opposite sex. And any sense that a woman had some kind of power that they could not understand or that maybe made them uncomfortable, they wanted to kind of squash it.

A (7:59)

Absolutely. Absolutely. And not even kind of. They definitively wanted this status quo they had established to remain the same. The crime of witchcraft as it was defined during this period of time consisted of two main sort of branches. The first was the obvious one, the practice of harmful magic using some sort of mysterious otherworldly power to bring misfortune on other people in your community. This could be the infliction of a disease. Everybody gets sick. Let's blame that elderly person who lives alone over by the edge of the woods. It could be the death of human beings or livestock. It could also often going back to your note about sexuality, Noel, it could be the crime of making men sexually impotent. And so they're like, oh, I can't get aroused anymore. You know what? It's not me. It's that elderly person who lives alone on the other side of town.

B (9:04)

Yeah. But didn't have to be elderly at all. Right. It could be anyone.

A (9:07)

It could be anyone. And these hunts were incredibly extensive at times. In Germany in 1589, in a place named Quedlinburg, 133 women were executed in one day. And there was a witch Hunt in 1585. Germany was very bad about this. That left two German villages. We get this. Only one female resident each.

B (9:30)

It's insane.

A (9:31)

So that's the. That's the context we want to lay out here. This stuff was tragic, horrific. And looking back from our time in the modern day, it could seem like some sort of group insanity. But we have to remember the people who were prosecuting these cases didn't just believe that they were acting logically. They wanted to, I guess, formalize this. And that leads us to the book you mentioned, Noel. The proper name is Malleus Maleficarum.

B (10:08)

That's right.

A (10:09)

And also known as the Hammer of the Witches.

B (10:12)

Or in German, I love this. Der Hexenhammer.

A (10:15)

There we go.

B (10:15)

Der Hexenhammer.

A (10:16)

Do it one more time, dear Hexenhauer. So what is this?

B (10:19)

It is a, as you said, Ben, a codified book of all of these things that we just mentioned. Okay, so the writers of this book didn't just invent this stuff out of whole cloth. It was kind of in the zeitgeist already. Witches do exist in the Bible, right? I mean, this idea of black magic or of, you know, antichrists or of some kind of anti God entity. Right.

A (10:43)

Sorcery as an infernal powers.

B (10:45)

Exactly. Is the word witch in the Bible, Ben?

A (10:48)

It's a fascinating question, Noel, because there are various kinds of things that we would call witchcraft and divination in the Hebrew Bible, and it's generally mentioned in a disapproving tone. But the problem that we run into is a problem of translation because somebody might translate something that just says like sorcery or sooth saying into witchcraft.

B (11:14)

Yeah, I've got one here from Leviticus 19:31 that uses the word spiritists. It says, do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God. Or from Chronicles 33, 6, he sacrificed his children in the valley of Ben Hinnan, practiced divination and witchcraft, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, arousing his anger. So to your point, Ben? Translation, but very interesting to Google this and see. Yes, witchcraft is in that form in the Bible in some ways, if not.

A (11:51)

The W word itself. The practices. Yeah, the tone, like Galatians 5:19 mentions it. There are several places where you can find Bible verses about witchcraft. But to your point, Noel, which I think is a very Important point, the authors of this book, who are understood to be two Dominicans, a guy named Johann Sprenger and a guy named Heinrich Kramer, and they weren't just saying, let's give people our opinion of witches. They were pulling, as you said, from a tradition and a system of beliefs that had existed long before them. The book, or the document as some people prefer to call it, was written around 1486. And when they were writing it, they were essentially compiling all these other things into sort of a one stop shop.

B (12:44)

But not without their own editorializing. Right. That's a big part of it. Because this guy Heinrich Kramer was sort of like a failed witch hunter and he never really got the respect that he felt he was due and was kind of a bitter man and decided he wanted to spread the word and kind of get people thinking about these things that were very dear to him, persecuting potentially wicked women for whatever reason. He wanted to influence that and kind of have his say on how people were going to look at this. And he put all this in a book along with his partner, Jacob Sprenger.

A (13:25)

That's correct. And there's an interesting part of Kramer's motivation that we have to examine here. You know, how some unscrupulous people on a get rich quick scheme will self publish a book on Amazon and then use that book as sort of a bona fide or a mark of their own credibility expertise. Like, you know, the best way to become a self help expert is just to write a book that purports to teach people to help themselves. Kramer also wanted, in addition to warning the general public, or at least the literate public, against the danger of witchcraft, he also wanted this book to give him the official authority to hunt witches. And, and again, this guy has somewhat of a myopic focus, but it also has some alarmist nature to it. Over the, what, 256 pages, it attempts to do several things. First, it wants to prove that witches and witchcraft are real. Don't be deceived, they are real, they're out to get you. Second, building from that and says these witches are real, they are infernal, they work with demonic forces, so therefore they must be killed. And then third, it wants to convince readers that not only are witches real, not only are they dangerous, but they are a sign of the apocalypse, the end of the world.

B (14:52)

And it does a really interesting thing that creates a real conundrum for when these witch trials start going completely bonkers. It points out that the Bible says there are witches, therefore, if you don't believe in witches, you are an accessory to their evil crimes.

A (15:10)

Yeah, similar to that old Edmund Burke quote, the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

B (15:18)

Only even further right, because this is literally saying if you think it means, you know, if you're standing up for the truth and saying that this is not real, this there is no witchcraft, or this person definitely is not a witch, then they can accuse you of being a heretic yourself simply for not believing what you're supposed to believe.

A (15:38)

If you're not with us, you're against us.

B (15:40)

Totally against us.

E (15:42)

Doesn't matter the time of day. You can always look for new parts to upgrade your car. And if you are a serial ebay scroller, you know the rush when you finally spot the part you've been hunting for. Maybe you're restoring a classic and you track down the right seat covers, but you're not sure the color will match. Or you find a steering wheel you love, but maybe it's a little too modern for the rest of your ride. Or you're just starting out, swapping your wipers and you can't be sure which set is right. Here's where eBay's free returns change the game. If it doesn't fit or it isn't what you expected, you can send it back. No stress. Just print a label, drop it off, and get your refund fast. So whether you're wrenching through a weekend project or just keeping your daily driver on the road, buy with confidence millions of parts. Free returns eBay Things people love Eligible Items Only Exclusion supply.

C (16:33)

You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, health care, retirement options, and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit OregonHomeCareJobs.com to learn more and apply. That's OregonHomeCareJobs.com is moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, keeping you covered up and feeling less confident. Clearer skin with Bimzelix can give you a chance to say, I'm back. Bimzelix bimakizumab BKZX Bembezelitz is a prescription medication taken by injection used to treat moderate to severe plaque psoriasis in adults who are candidates for systemic therapy or phototherapy. Bimzelix can deliver transformative relief. Most people got 100% clear skin. In combined clinical studies, nearly 9 in 10 people saw 90% clearer skin, and more than 6 in 10 saw 100% clear skin. At 616 weeks. Start getting back to liking your reflection. Say so long to long sleeves. Love your skin again with Bimzelix. Only Bemzelix targets and blocks IL17A F to calm inflammation.

D (17:57)

Serious side effects like suicidal thoughts and behavior, infections and lowered ability to fight them. Liver problems and inflammatory bowel disease have occurred. Tell your doctor if these happen or worsen or fevers, chills, muscle aches or cough occur or you've had a vaccine or plan to before starting. Get checked for infections, tuberculosis and liver problems.

C (18:18)

Get back to clearer skin. Ask your dermatologist about Bimzelix, the first approved treatment of its kind. Learn more@bimzelx.com or call 1-833-UCB now.

F (18:31)

One stop settling for weak sound it's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the Ultra Dur LG XBoom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because, let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time, save 25%@LG.com with code fall25. Bring the boom XBoom.

G (19:03)

There's a lot going on in Hollywood. How are you supposed to stay on top of it all? Variety has the solution. Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new Daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

B (19:17)

Where do you see the business actually heading?

G (19:19)

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co editor in chief Cynthia Littleton.

B (19:25)

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

G (19:27)

Open your free iHeartradio app. Search Daily Variety and listen now.

A (19:36)

Okay, so if we divide the book, we talked about kind of three aims of the book. We can also divide the work into three rough sections. The first is, as we said, this explanation that witches are real, they are dangerous. The second is a guide for the experts, the clergy on how to recognize a witch. And they get pretty specific, you know, like devil's marks, which could be anything from a mole to a scar, right? Certain types of behavior or things that occur in their communities. And then the third part, the final part, is a legal manual for how to properly accuse and persecute a witch and if finding them guilty. Spoiler alert. Very few people were found innocent to give them the death penalty. And in the work, there's a really interesting bit of doublethink here because the authors say that you shouldn't be deceived if someone appears to be weak. They say, in fact, the weak people are the Most dangerous witches. And what this meant is that a lot of times people who lived on the fringes of society because they were, say, mentally ill or they were very poor, they became the number one targets. And then also, we have to face the facts. I'm pulling some of this from a really excellent podcast called 15 Minute History with an episode on witch hunting in Europe. The guest on this episode is a guy named John E. Green, professor in history at the University of Texas in Austin. And he points out that a lot of times, persecuting witches made things even worse for the community, because people who would be considered witches would be, like medical practitioners, literally the only healthcare in the village or in the town or midwives. And let's say a birth goes wrong through no fault of the midwife, depending on their luck, they may be accused of purposely killing the child. Or if you're treating someone who has a disease and they don't get better because, hey, it's an incurable disease, then they flip the script and say they're not better. Not because leprosy is incurable at this time, but because you're a witch.

B (21:55)

Yeah. What a horrible position to be in, to literally being the first line of defense for helping people and opening yourself up to this kind of scrutiny and ridicule. It reminds me of that scene if we're talking about the tests and, like, the things that were contained in this book, which is also the kinds of tortures and how you should go about torturing a witch to get a proper confession. But it reminds me of that scene in Monty Python, the Holy Grail, where they're trying to see if it's a witch, and they're like, does wood sink in water? No, it floats. So then throw her in the water and see if she floats. What else floats in water? A duck. And then the king is like, so if she weighs the same as a duck, then she's a witch. It's like this kind of circular logic, you know, this is satire, obviously, but that's the kind of stuff that was in this book.

A (22:41)

And this book, although maybe it started out as somewhat of a specialized tool, this book becomes wildly popular. Right. It goes through, what, 28 editions? I think there are more than 30,000 copies circulated throughout Europe.

B (22:58)

Yeah, I think it sold more copies than any book but the bible up.

A (23:02)

Until 1678, which is insane, especially when you consider what a pain it was to make a book at that time. So this also gets some endorsement from the papacy itself. The Pope issues a papal bull. It's a document that the Pope signs themselves stating the official church opinion.

B (23:24)

And this is pre publication, though, right? This is like he kind of sanctioned them to do this research. And this bull was included in the printing.

A (23:33)

Yes. Yeah. And this book, the Hexenhammer, is the only. Did I do it? All right.

B (23:39)

Very.

A (23:39)

Oh, thanks, man. This book is the only work of its kind to receive the official approval of the Catholic Church. Now, people will tell you that there's some fairly convincing circumstantial evidence that Kramer bribed the Pope to condone the Hammer of the Witches.

B (23:59)

Yeah, I also read somewhere that it's not even specifically about the Hammer of the Witches, that they sort of almost like fudged it a little bit to make it seem like it was more about that, but it was actually a little broader and not specifically condoning everything that they were putting forth in this book. But it's like the best New York Times Book Review you could possibly get or the best celebrity endorsement you could ever imagine having is having this thing included inside your book jacket cover. Pope says, good to go. You know, this is the one.

A (24:34)

Yeah. It's kind of like having. Writing a book about how to be a better person and having an endorsement from Mr. Rogers or something. Not quite, because we're talking about God and divinity. But while we're talking about fudging this, there's an interesting thing we mentioned. Jacob Sprenger, or Johann Sprenger, as he's often called. He was in later editions mentioned as a collaborator, but nowadays a lot of historians believe that his name was just added as kind of an endorsement.

B (25:07)

Sprenger. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I read that, too.

A (25:10)

And that he didn't actually have much to do with the creation of the book. Sort of like how Quentin Tarantino air quotes. Presented the man with the Iron Fist, directed by rza. Tarantino didn't really have anything to do with it.

B (25:26)

They probably hung out, I'm sure.

A (25:28)

Yeah, I'm sure he.

B (25:29)

They probably had a chair with his name on it on set, and he.

A (25:32)

Probably made a rant about something in pop culture, but that's just what he does. Yeah, that's just kind of how Quentin is, but totally.

B (25:38)

So what was the. What were the bona fides of Springer again, Ben? I'm sorry if you said it. Just help me out. I want to understand a little better.

A (25:44)

Yeah. He was dean of the University of Cologne in Germany, and he was also a friar of some note.

B (25:54)

And here's the thing. The bull itself, it was more intended to confirm Powers that inquisitors, or that a guy named Henry in Statoris and James Springer, who were inquisitors already have to, quote, deal with persons of every class and with every form of qu. Crime, for example, with witchcraft as being heresy. And it called upon the Bishop of Strasbourg to lend. This is a quote from the bull. Lend inquisitors all possible support. And the reason that Kramer enlisted Sprenger was because Sprenger's name is actually in the bull. But it had nothing to do with the book. It was more about seeking out witchcraft and prosecuting it in general because the law had changed. Where I believe it used to be more a church, specifically a church duty to seek these things out. But then it kind of became more of a municipal thing. And when we start seeing the crazy panic of witch hunt pandemonium, that's because it became a lot easier to do.

A (27:03)

Yeah, that's the thing. And I think that's well put. We would be remiss if we didn't mention that. But one of the things clearly condoned by the book is torture.

B (27:15)

Oh, yeah. Horrific torture.

A (27:17)

Yeah. Kramer's favorite was something called the strappado, which is a device that attaches to the wrist and pulls them upwards so the victims hang by their arms until their arms dislocate.

B (27:28)

Yeah. Anytime we talk about this kind of stuff, I just get the heebie jeebies so bad. Like the thumb screws, the ones that would literally shred your hands, you know, by, like, these vices that your hands would go in. And there was one that was some kind of, like, helmet you would put on with, like, a drill that would go right into your forehead. Just barbaric stuff. And another thing that was in the. In the book was a caveat saying you don't have to tell the person you're accusing who accused them.

A (27:59)

Right. It also recommends, oddly enough, deception in order to obtain confessions. So there's a quote here where it says, and when the implements of torture have been prepared, the judge, both in person and through other good men zealous in the faith, tries to persuade the prisoner to confess the truth freely. But if he will not confess, he bid attendants make the prisoner fast to the strappado or other implement of torture. The attendants obey forthwith, yet with feigned agitation. Then, at the prayer of some of those present, the prisoner is loosed again and taken aside and once more persuaded to confess, and being led to believe that he will, in that case, not be put to death. That's why so many people confessed, because they Got tortured for some amount of time and then they got pulled aside and someone said, hey, look, if you just come clean about this, it can end now, of course, you don't have to die.

B (28:54)

And we already know this about military interrogation, that interrogation under torture does not yield results that are reliable because people will say anything if you'll stop doing the horrible thing to them.

A (29:07)

Right, exactly. And that's. I mean, it's the. I hate to say it, but torture is a tale as old as time. And didn't they also talk about the quote, unquote, more carnal, inherent nature of women?

B (29:22)

Absolutely, that's what we were talking about at the top of the show. I feel like that's something that's inherent in this whole persecution of women for witchcraft. But, yes, it carries over into this codified book of all of these different techniques. I was watching a documentary on this book on History Channel and I forget the guy's name, but he was a scholar who specifically studies this work. And he pointed out all of these very charged words that were used in the text, words that didn't have to use. And they were Latin, obviously, but words that would mean something like disgusting or filth as opposed to just not good, very charged language. Or a word that meant a temptress or some kind of adulterous, where it was like, this is what these women will turn men into through their witchly wiles or whatever. So very charged language, very much with a position.

A (30:20)

And additionally, it's important to note there's a different definition of seduction at play here. It's completely possible, for instance, for someone to have sexually assaulted an innocent person in a village and then say, I'm a good Christian man. She seduced me through the use of witchcraft. So in addition to me attacking her as a punishment for her powers, she should be put to death.

B (30:49)

It reminds me of the story we did about women being incarcerated for having sexually transmitted diseases, where that was flipped as well and used by men to treat women. Like men would give women these sexually transmitted diseases and then act like they had given it to them or use it to ostracize them in some way. There was one story, I believe, where a man left a woman on the side of the road or something like that. It's another one of these really effed up power dynamics that is again, tale as old as time. And we see it all codified in this book here. Like, this is the way to do.

A (31:20)

It doesn't matter the time of day. You can always look for new parts to upgrade your car. And if you're a serial eBay scroller, you know that rush when you finally spot the part you've been hunting for. Maybe you're restoring a classic and you you track down the right seat covers, but you're not sure the color will match. Or you find a steering wheel you love, but maybe it's a little too modern for the rest of the ride. Or you're just starting out, swapping your wipers, and you can't be sure which set is the right set. Here's where eBay's free returns change the game. If it doesn't fit or it isn't what you expected, you can send it back. No stress. Just print a label, drop it off, and get your refund fast. So whether you're wrenching through a weekend project or just keeping your daily driver on the road, buy with confidence millions of parts free returns eBay things people love Eligible Items Only Exclusions apply.

C (32:26)

You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, health care, retirement options, and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit OregonHomeCareJobs.com to learn more and apply. That's OregonHomeCareJobs.com is moderate to severe plaque psoriasis keeping you covered up and feeling less confident. Clearer skin with Bimzelix can give you a chance to say, I'm back. Bimzelix bimakizumab bkzx is a prescription medication taken by injection used to treat moderate to severe plaque psoriasis in adults who are candidates for systemic therapy or phototherapy. Vimzelix can deliver transformative relief. Most people got 100% clear skin in combined clinical studies, nearly 9 in 10 people saw 90% clearer skin, and more than 6 in 10 saw 100% clear skin at 16 weeks. Start getting back to liking your reflection, say so long to long sleeves. Love your skin again with Bimzelix only Bimzelics targets and blocks ILC to calm inflammation.

D (33:50)

Serious side effects like suicidal thoughts and behavior, infections and lowered ability to fight them. Liver problems and inflammatory bowel disease have occurred. Tell your doctor if these happen or worsen or fevers, chills, muscle aches, or cough occur or you've had a vaccine or plan to before starting, get checked for infections, tuberculosis, and liver problems.

C (34:10)

Get back to clearer skin. Ask your dermatologist about Bimzelix, the first approved treatment of its kind. Learn more@bimzelx.com or call 1-833-UCB now. 1.

F (34:25)

Stop settling for weak sound. It's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with The Ultra Durable LG XBoom Portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go.

A (34:37)

Elevated.

F (34:38)

Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time, save 25%@LG.com with code fall25. Bring the boom XBoom.

G (34:55)

There's a lot going on in Hollywood. How are you supposed to stay on top of it all? Variety has the solution. Take 20 minutes out of your day and look. Listen to the new daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

B (35:09)

Where do you see the business actually heading?

G (35:12)

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co editor in chief Cynthia Littleton.

B (35:18)

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

G (35:20)

Open your free iHeartradio app, search daily Variety and listen now.

A (35:29)

There's a pretty interesting argument from Atlas Obscura by Sarah Laskow about the hammer of the witches, which. You know what? While we're at it, shouldn't it be the hammer for the witches? Just grammatically?

B (35:43)

Yeah, the witches do not have the power here.

A (35:45)

Right. So what they found was that the Malus Maleficarum was once thought to be the handbook for witch hunters, but more recent research has found that maybe it wasn't as influential as we initially thought. Thought, because you're right, Noel. That papal bull from 1484, and the book was written in 1486, published in 1487. That papal bull allows witchcraft prosecutions, but as you said, doesn't specifically say this is the book.

B (36:18)

But it named that guy Sprenger, which is the reason that Kramer needed to have him as his co author, because that allowed him to use that as a manipulation. And I think we've made it clear. But this thing caught on like wildfire and spread even to the new world.

A (36:31)

Right.

B (36:31)

You know, which is where the Salem stuff comes in. I mean, this became a thing and it was literally this like bestseller. But not just one that people were talking about around the water cooler. This actually caused the deaths of. What was that figure at the top of the show, Ben? Hundreds of thousands of women.

A (36:48)

The early modern period, approximately 100,000, 50,000 of whom were executed.

B (36:53)

Excuse me, I overstated the number of people.

A (36:55)

No, you got it, you got it.

B (36:56)

No, I think I said hundreds of. But hundreds of thousands of women who were persecuted and a lesser number who were actually killed. But in the most gruesome and horrific ways imaginable.

A (37:07)

And to the point about the perceived importance of the book as it was catching on with the public, it looks like some members of the clergy were becoming increasingly, I don't know, skeptical of the book would be, oddly enough, a good word. Leaders of the Spanish Inquisition didn't put too much stock in the Hammer. And by at least the 1530s, they were actively warning their own officials away from it because maybe they saw it as sort of a personal mission of Kramers, maybe a little more self interest than public interest, but it was still influential enough that people would commission specific copies of it. And I guess it is important for us to mention that while the vast majority of people prosecuted for witchcraft were women, there were dudes in there too. And they were also put to death.

B (37:58)

Absolutely.

A (37:59)

It was kind of anything goes.

B (38:01)

I've got a couple of resources that I'd like to plug really quick if you're interested in finding out more about this stuff. I know you and I both love the A24 film, the Witch. I feel like that displays these attitudes very strongly. There's a young girl character who kind of represents that sexuality that we're talking about. And there are some kind of telling shots that show that that's not only an issue for the man, it's an issue for the mother, because the mother is almost even as much threatened by that as any authority figure male might be. And that becomes a theme. And this idea of a witch harming crops or livestock is represented. And just the kind of idea of this witch being, is it real? Is it not real? Is it just religious zealotry run amok? That's the thing that's fun about that movie, but.

A (38:52)

But there's also the subtle argument for ergot poisoning.

B (38:58)

That's right. That's right. That they're all hallucinating on some kind of poisoned crop, poisoned corn, that has hallucinogenic effects, which is one of the possible explanations for the Salem witch trials, which here in How Stuff Works, our buddy Matt works on a show about Salem called unobscure with Aaron Manke of Lore fame and our pal Alex Williams, who composed our theme.

A (39:22)

Mm. And now, thankfully, this book is, surprise, surprise, no longer considered an authoritative guide to persecuting people for perceived supernatural abilities.

B (39:37)

Yeah, you don't hear so much about people burning witches anymore, thankfully. But, you know, there are still witch hunts of other varieties. And all this stuff is very interesting to learn from and apply to modern day politics and things, which is something that they parallel in that show. Unobscured that we're talking about.

A (39:57)

And for his part, Kramer kept writing and preaching until he died in Bohemia in 1505. His gambit to increase his reputation, or maybe to justify his failed attempts at witch hunting did seem to succeed. It's weird because we said the papal bull on persecution and witchcraft was published in the 1487 edition, but we didn't mention that by 1490, the church had officially condemned the Hammer of the Witches. Was it because they were genuinely concerned for the damage it was doing to communities? Or was it because he was late with yet another bride? That we don't know.

B (40:45)

Well, what we do know is there was rampant corruption in the Catholic Church, in the papacy, and, you know, likely still is, given what we know about some of the scandals that keep coming to light. So it's, you know, the more things change and all that.

A (40:58)

And this brings us to.

B (41:00)

Where's the silver lining here, Ben? We need a silver lining.

A (41:02)

I have a comic recommendation.

B (41:04)

Oh, good. See, that's why the comic recommendation is helpful.

A (41:07)

It's our insurance plan. Yeah. Okay, so I'm a fan of murky and dark stuff and I would like to recommend today the comic Sir Edward Grey Witchfinder. So, Noel, you know, Hellboy and maybe Baltimore and all those other things.

B (41:24)

I know Hellboy.

A (41:25)

Okay, so Witchfinder is a spinoff from Hellboy and it concerns a guy named Sir Edward Gray, who is the Queen's official expert on all things supernatural because of various interactions he has had saving people from the nefarious activities of witches. Edward Gray does not. Spoiler alert. Use the hammer of the witches, the Hexenlama. But it's a great story, as a matter of fact, man, if you want to borrow some of the trades, I have them.

B (42:03)

Sure. As soon as I return. Lock and key to you.

A (42:04)

Oh, that's right.

B (42:06)

I can't be and double dutch to you comic book wise.

A (42:08)

Oh, I think he is so great. But that's my comic recommendation for today. As far as we know, there is not, thank goodness, a graphic novel adaptation of the Malleus Maleficarum.

B (42:20)

I think the Constantine comics are really fun.

A (42:23)

That's great. Yeah.

B (42:23)

And it involves a lot of different supernatural exploration and things like that. I've always been a huge fan of Sandman and Neil Gaiman's work, and Constantine was in that briefly and he has his own series that's really great. And has witchcraft and devilry and Lucifer and all of these great deities, but they have real personality, so that's a fun one. I wouldn't bother with the movie with Keanu Reeves.

A (42:50)

I would watch the movie after reading the comics or just recognize. It's a very different thing.

B (42:54)

And I have heard that the TV series that got canceled was okay, but it was. I liked it. I didn't see it.

A (42:58)

I liked it. Whomever they picked to be the lead actor for that, the protagonist, he's got.

B (43:03)

To be real cockney. He can't be.

A (43:04)

Keanu Reeves genuinely looks like John Cockney.

B (43:08)

Yeah, Keanu Reeves is a weird choice.

A (43:10)

It's a weird choice. I hear he's a great guy, though.

B (43:12)

Yo, he seems like a lovely dude. That sad Keanu on the bench meme is. Is just delightful.

A (43:17)

There we go. Now we're ending on a better note.

B (43:19)

We just had to make ourselves cheer up.

A (43:21)

I think that's what it was. We hope that it worked for you as well. Ridiculous historians, thank you so much for tuning in. Thanks to our super producer and avowed opponent of witch hunts, Casey Peggot.

B (43:34)

Thanks to our research pal Gabe Lussier for hipping us to some of the details in this kind of depressing but incredible story.

A (43:42)

We already thanked Alex.

B (43:44)

We did, but we get to thank him again.

A (43:45)

Let's do it again.

B (43:46)

It was weird thanking him out of context.

A (43:47)

No, I think it was great. You know, I still. I feel like we should let him know that we still do this. Because you said he just nodded once.

B (43:55)

That's just what he does.

A (43:56)

He's just. He's a nodder.

B (43:57)

He's a nodder.

A (43:58)

I mean that as a compliment.

B (43:59)

But both, both he and our long suffering buddy Matt both work on this Salem show unobscured with Aaron Menke. So check that out if you want to do a deep dive into the Salem witch trials and how it kind of dovetails a bit with American politics right now. It's a very interesting show and thanks to you, Ben, for being a friend.

A (44:18)

Thanks to you, Noel, and thanks to everyone in society ever who decided to stop burning people alive. Yeah. Yeah. I think that deserves a thank you. And stay tuned for our next episode. We can't tell you what it is yet for various reasons.

B (44:37)

Is it because we don't know?

A (44:38)

Primarily it's because we haven't picked one yet. But we can promise that we hope it will be interesting.

B (44:45)

It'll be an episode. See you then, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

A (45:02)

Ah, come on.

G (45:03)

Why is this taking so long?

C (45:04)

This thing is ancient.

B (45:06)

Still using yesterday's tech Upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 Carbon Ultra Light, Ultra powerful and built for serious productivity with Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed and AI powered performance that keeps up with your business, not the other way around.

G (45:20)

Whoa, this thing moves.

B (45:21)

Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search@lenovo.com Lenovo Lenovo unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.

E (45:40)

Stop settling for weak sound.

B (45:41)

It's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG 8 boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time save 25% at LG.com with code fall25.

E (46:05)

Bring the boom XBoom.

G (46:10)

There'S a lot going on in Hollywood. How are you supposed to stay on top of it all? Variety has the solution. Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

B (46:24)

Where do you see the business actually heading?

G (46:26)

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co Editor in Chief Cynthia Littleton.

B (46:32)

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

G (46:35)

Open your free iHeartradio app, search daily Variety and listen now.

A (46:40)

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo@o d o o.com that's o d o o.com hey, what's up? It's Mario Lopez.

F (47:14)

Back to school is an exciting time.

A (47:16)

But it can also be overwhelming and kids may feel isolated, a vulnerability that human traffickers can exploit. Human trafficking doesn't always look like what you expect. Everyday moments can become opportunities for someone.

B (47:28)

With bad intentions, whether your parents, parent.

A (47:31)

Teacher, coach or neighbor.

B (47:33)

Check in.

A (47:34)

Ask questions.

B (47:35)

Stay connected.

A (47:36)

Blue Campaign is a national awareness initiative that provides resources to help recognize suspected instances of human trafficking. Learn the signs and how to report@dhs.gov blue campaign.

B (47:49)

This is an iHeart podcast.