CLASSIC: The Mummies of Guanajuato

Summary

Ridiculous History Podcast Summary: CLASSIC: The Mummies of Guanajuato

Podcast Information:

• Title: Ridiculous History
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
• Description: History is beautiful, brutal, and often ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.
• Episode: CLASSIC: The Mummies of Guanajuato
• Release Date: June 28, 2025

---

Introduction: Unveiling the Mummies of Guanajuato

In this classic episode, hosts Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown delve into the eerie and tragic history of the Mummies of Guanajuato, exploring how a combination of economic policies and natural conditions led to one of Mexico's most macabre tourist attractions.

Ben (00:00):
"Oh, we're doing some cool stuff with our classic episode this week, Noel. We're exploring mummies."

Noel (00:08):
"We are indeed—not mummies and daddies. No, mummies. The embalmed kind. The kind that potentially rise from the dead and spook people out on Halloween. It's also a fun lo-fi costume. Just involves some toilet paper, right?"

---

Historical Context: The Rise of Guanajuato

Guanajuato, established in the early 16th century, burgeoned into a thriving silver mining hub by the 18th century. At its peak, it was the third-largest silver mine on the planet, significantly impacting global silver prices and the local economy.

Noel (04:00):
"Specifically the Mexican town of Guanajuato, which was established in the early 16th century and was something of a boom town for silver mining. It became that in the 18th century to the point where I believe it actually kind of messed with the economy of silver because there was just so much damn silver coming out of there that it, like, jacked with the price of silver in a way that caused some real economic problems in the region."

Guanajuato is renowned for its stunning architecture, particularly the brightly colored Baroque buildings and the famous Boca del Infierno ("Mouth of Hell") mine shaft. Additionally, the city played a pivotal role in the Mexican Revolution, serving as a stronghold under Father Miguel Hidalgo's leadership.

---

The Grave Tax: A Grim Economic Policy

Between 1865 and 1958, Guanajuato implemented a controversial grave tax. This policy required families to lease burial plots for a fixed period, initially five years, with mandatory renewals. Failure to pay the tax for three consecutive years resulted in the exhumation of bodies.

Ben (06:23):
"...they instituted a grave tax, which just feels terrible. Like, that's so petty and penny pinching. You're going to tax people on the way out as well. If you couldn't pay the grave tax, you would run into some harsh penalties. If you fall three years behind on your loved one's resting place, they will dig the body up and they will take it out of the grave."

Families unable to afford the lease faced the disquieting reality of their loved ones being relocated to pauper's graves or ossuaries. This policy clashed deeply with Mexico's rich cultural reverence for death and ancestral veneration.

Noel (07:14):
"...then your peeps would be uprooted, literally dug up. Not really dug up because they were in these airtight mausoleum chambers. They would be removed and evicted and they were either taken to a simple pauper's grave outside of town."

---

Natural Mummification: Nature's Unintended Preservation

Guanajuato's arid climate and low oxygen levels in burial sites created the perfect conditions for natural mummification. Contrary to the elaborate embalming practices of ancient Egypt, these mummies were preserved through environmental factors.

Noel (08:53):
"The mummies, when they found this Frenchman, the first guy they found that had undergone this transformation, they were like, this is pretty cool. And by they, I guess the city people that ran the mausoleum..."

Ben (08:53):
"They were mummies. They had become mummies. Naturally. They were mummified by the environment in which they were interred."

The first naturally mummified individual discovered was Dr. Remigio Leroy in 1865. His preservation sparked interest, leading officials to retain and eventually display more mummies as a tourist attraction.

---

Establishment of El Museo de los Mummies: Turning Tragedy into Tourism

Initially kept in ossuaries for potential reinterment, some mummies were deemed sufficiently fascinating to be showcased in a museum. In the 1950s, El Museo de los Muñecos Mummies was established, becoming Guanajuato's premier tourist attraction.

Noel (16:40):
"El Museo de los Mummies, which, you know, the Museum of the Mummies. It was the same place where the cemetery workers were just charging people several pesos to enter into the building, see the bones and the mummies, with, again, Dr. Leroy being the first one on display."

The museum features over 108 naturally mummified bodies, each with unique and often tragic stories. Notable exhibits include a pregnant mummy and individuals suspected of being accidentally buried alive during the cholera epidemic.

Noel (17:34):
"With more than 100... 108 dried out human mummies. Natural mummies. And this includes all different types of situations in varying stages of decay, kind of."

---

Cultural Impact and Ethical Dilemmas: Memorial or Exploitation?

The transformation of Guanajuato's mummies into a museum raised significant ethical questions. While some argue that the display serves as a historical memorial and educational tool, others view it as exploitative, especially given the lack of consent from the deceased or their families.

Ben (22:04):
"...at what point does the benefit to science or the benefit to history outweigh the ethical pitfalls of displaying someone's corpse after they die?"

The local government's stance, as represented by spokesperson Arturo Tiberis, emphasizes cultural acceptance of death and the museum's role in tourism without violating local sentiments.

Noel (24:05):
"The museum is an important part of Guanajuato's tourist appeal... We have a different cultural approach to death in Mexico. Here we celebrate the cycle of life and accept death as inevitable."

Despite these justifications, ongoing additions to the museum, such as a baby mummy from 1999 whose mother still visits, highlight the continued ethical complexity.

---

Influence on Popular Culture: From Literature to Film

Guanajuato's mummies have permeated various facets of popular culture. Ray Bradbury's short story "The Next in Line" vividly captures the haunting presence of the mummies, while Werner Herzog incorporated images of these mummies into his film Nosferatu the Vampire (1970) for its eerie ambiance.

Noel (20:29):
"Ray Bradbury actually wrote a short story based on his visit... called 'The Next in Line,' where he very vividly describes this."

Additionally, the 1972 film Santo versus the Mummies of Guanajuato brought international attention, blending Mexican luchador culture with the supernatural elements of the mummies.

Noel (21:19):
"Santo being a very popular luchador... it was like a very well-known national figure fighting a very well-known national monster."

---

Recent Developments and Ongoing Research

In recent years, efforts such as the Guanajuato Mummy Research Project initiated by Mayor Dr. Eduardo Hicks in 2007 have aimed to study the natural mummification process and uncover the personal histories of the individuals interred.

Ben (33:30):
"Guanajuato's mayor, Dr. Eduardo Hicks, back in 2007, initiated the Guanajuato Mummy Research Project and invited several scientists to go down and spend more than a year exploring the origin and the development of the mummies."

Documentaries like National Geographic's The Mummy Roadshow have further explored these preserved remains, offering scientific and historical insights to a global audience.

---

Conclusion: Balancing Memorialization and Exploitation

Ben and Noel conclude by reflecting on the ethical implications of exhibiting the mummies. They acknowledge the scientific and educational benefits while grappling with the moral questions surrounding consent and exploitation.

Ben (33:47):
"Is this more useful to humanity as a memorial, as a way of educating people, or is it exploitative?"

Ultimately, the hosts suggest that the museum serves as both a memorial and an educational resource, honoring the lives of ordinary people whose stories provide a tangible connection to the past.

Noel (35:35):
"They're strangely beautiful, I want to say haunting... And it really apparently severely affected [Ray Bradbury], and that he felt the need to write this piece to kind of exorcise some of those demons from himself."

---

Notable Quotes

• Noel (07:14):
  "Then your peeps would be uprooted, literally dug up... they would be removed and evicted and they were either taken to a simple pauper's grave outside of town."

• Noel (24:05):
  "Here we celebrate the cycle of life and accept death as inevitable."

• Ben (33:47):
  "Is this more useful to humanity as a memorial, as a way of educating people, or is it exploitative?"

---

Final Thoughts

The story of the Mummies of Guanajuato is a compelling intersection of economic policy, natural phenomena, cultural attitudes toward death, and ethical considerations in the preservation of history. Ben and Noel's exploration offers listeners a profound understanding of how these preserved remains continue to impact both the local community and the broader global consciousness.

For more intriguing historical tales, tune into Ridiculous History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Ben]

Oh, we're doing some. We're doing some cool stuff with our classic episode this week, Noel. We're exploring mummies.

[Noel]

We are indeed not mummies and daddies. No, mummies. The embalmed kind. The kind that potentially rise from the dead and spook people out on Halloween. It's also a fun lo fi costume. Just involves some toilet paper, right?

[Ben]

Yeah. This is the story of a city called Guanajo. And back in the day, they instituted a grave tax, which just feels terrible. Like, that's so petty and penny pinching. You're going to tax people on the way out as well. If you couldn't pay the grave tax, you would run into some harsh penalties. If you fall three years behind on your loved one's resting place, they will dig the body up and they will take it out of the grave.

[Noel]

Yeah. And these bodies were not, of course not ancient Egypt. They weren't like wrapped in linens and mummified in that classic fashion. They were someh found to have been naturally mummified. And word spread and it became something of a sideshow attraction, which is pretty gross. Gravediggers are trying to make a quick buck charging folks to take a peek at these naturally mummified remains. So why don't we jump into the story and hear all about the mummies of Guanajato? This is an I heart podcast. In 2012, 16 year old Brian Herrera was gunned down in broad daylight on his way to do homework. No suspects, no witnesses, no justice. I would ask my husband, do you want me to stop? He was like, no, keep fighting. After nearly a decade, a breakthrough changed everything. This is Cold Case Files Miami. Stories of families who never stopped fighting. Listen to Cold Case Files Miami on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Casey, could we get a little bit of spooky music just for a second in the background here it is, in fact, October. Perfect. Welcome to the show Ridiculous Historians. We are men of our word. Earlier, we had floated the idea of finding some more frightening, disturbing, creepy tales as we get closer to Halloween.

[Noel]

Ben, didn't we do a pope based, kind of spooky, creepy tale already? But that was pre October.

[Ben]

Noel, you're right. That was pre October. We talked about whether or not we should save that one. But that was just such a cool and strange story.

[Noel]

Oh, we were compelled. The power of Christ compelled us to put that podcast out in the world.

[Ben]

And the power of super producer Casey Pegram helped Make that reality. We're looking at a story today that is equal parts ridiculous. And I would say tragic.

[Noel]

Yeah, I'd say mainly tragic in my book.

[Ben]

Yeah. And this is something that you had. You had hipped me to, Noel, which is the story of mummies in Mexico.

[Noel]

Yeah. Specifically the Mexican town of Guanajuato, which was established in the early 16th century and was something of a boom town for silver mining. It became that in the 18th century to the point where I believe it actually kind of messed with the economy of silver because there was just so much damn silver coming out of there that it, like, jacked with the price of silver in a way that caused some real economic problems in the region.

[Ben]

Absolutely. Yeah. For a time, it was the third largest silver mine on the planet in terms of production. They still have traces of this mining industry. Right. Especially. What is it? Boca del Inferno.

[Noel]

Boca del Inferno. It's a mine shaft that. Boca, meaning mouth. So that's the mouth of hell. And this is an attraction. You can see there are also. It's known for its beautiful architecture, these brightly colored baroque buildings. And there are these, like, narrow kind of alleys between the buildings. And it's a very walkable, picturesque little city. But it also was an important stronghold during the Mexican Revolution when Mexico was able to break free of Spanish control. And that is when Father Miguel Hidalgo in 1810, who was the parish priest in Dolores, put out his infamous Grito de la Dolores, which is the shout of Dolores. And he assembled a mob of peasants brandishing machetes and clubs. And they eventually made their way to Guanajuato because it was the most prominent, largest city in the area. And that became their stronghold and the site of the beginning of the Mexican Revolution. So a lot of history in this town, but today's episode is not about any of those things.

[Ben]

Oh, yes, yes. Let me set this up. We should say that the name Guanajuato actually translates to mountainous place of frogs.

[Noel]

Love that.

[Ben]

And it's had several different names throughout its time because it's a very old city.

[Noel]

So maybe an Aztec era where the name was. Yeah. What was it?

[Ben]

It was the land of straw, I believe.

[Noel]

And the word is beautiful. Where this translated from? And it was an Aztec word. Paxtitlan.

[Ben]

You know, that's. That is a beautiful word. I personally, I also liked Mo' oti, the place of metals.

[Noel]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Which is the older, older name.

[Noel]

Makes perfect sense. It was also the place of weird government sanctioned grave robbing.

[Ben]

That's right. Today's story involves grave robbing and it involves, I'm just going to say it, a really terrible move on the part of local government. So this is a big city. A lot of people get buried. You know, life happens. You're born, you live and you die. And there was a cholera outbreak around the area of Guanajatu in the 1830s, around 1833 or so in. And these people, when they expired, they were interned, they were buried. In some cases they were embalmed. But a few years later, the local government puts a tax on graves.

[Noel]

Yeah, so the thing is, like, you would rent this place like you didn't own it. Yeah, yeah, you would rent it. And I think the initial rental period was about five years. And then you had to re up your rental. Your family had to, you know, assuming you had any family to speak of. And if you didn't pay, this is something that was instituted between 1865 to 1958, by the way, very recently done away with. And if you did not pay for.

[Ben]

Three years in a row.

[Noel]

That's right. Then your peeps would be uprooted, literally dug up. Not really dug up because they were in these airtight mausoleum chambers. They would be removed and evicted and they were either taken to a simple pauper's grave outside of town. And this is the thing too, that's interesting about this story. The. This culture very much reveres death. You know, you have like the deos de los muertos and all of these kind of death related rituals and just deep veneration for one's ancestors and paying respects and, you know, this very religious culture, the idea of digging up these loved ones and like putting them in a less desirable burial space had to have been very painful for some of these families. But that wasn't even the worst thing that could have happened, was it, Ben?

[Ben]

Yeah. There are stranger things that happened because they would be put in a pauper's grave or they might be placed in an ossuary, which was actually under the cemetery grounds itself, waiting in case the relatives would come back, cough up the money and have their loved ones reinterred or reburied, which did happen in a couple of cases. These people were taken out of the grave and then put back in. But when they were taken out of the grave, or often they weren't decayed in the way that you would expect a dead body to rot over time. They were preserved. They were mummies. They were mummies. They had become mummies. Naturally. They were mummified by the environment in which they were interred. I believe the first one that was found mummified was A man named Dr. Remigio Leroy in 1865.

[Noel]

The Frenchman, right? Or the French doctor, I think is what he was known as. So we're sort of bearing the lead here. We were getting there. But yes, Ben, this is very important. The fact that they were naturally mummified from lack of oxygen and just the very dry climate that existed there in this part of the world. And so they would literally just dry out and their clothes would rot quicker than their bodies would. And here's the thing. These mummies, when they found this Frenchman, the first guy they found that had undergone this transformation, they were like, this is pretty cool. And by they, I mean, I guess the city people that ran the mausoleum. What do you think? Like city officials? This was a state run facility. Right?

[Ben]

Right, yeah.

[Noel]

They would be like, okay, this is pretty cool. We should hold onto this guy. And so they do that, and they continue doing that for several years before they realize, hey, I think we might have a little money maker on our hands. So what happens then is the ones that the curators, let's call them, deem, I guess, fascinating enough, specimens are kept and in the 50s, a museum is opened.

[Ben]

Yes, that's true. This hearkens back to our earlier episode, which seems so, so long ago now, on corpses in a diorama. Do you remember that?

[Noel]

I very much do. With the camel and the Arabic gentleman with the human skull, I believe. Right.

[Ben]

And when. Yes. And when we say thought to be fascinating, what do we mean? This is pretty graphic stuff. These mean things like mummy that was pregnant or people who appear to have been buried alive, such as Ignacia Aguilar. The people who were buried alive were almost certainly buried by accident due to the extreme nature of the cholera outbreak.

[Noel]

And. Yeah, that's right. And a lot of these specimens were found to have cholera or have suffered from smoke inhalation. There's a really great, really short podcast from a show called Mexico Unexplained, I think is what it's called. Yeah. And it goes into some of these details, but really interesting that they would have had smoke inhalation because it was either from smoking cigarettes or any kind of tobacco or possibly from working in those mines under less than ideal conditions.

[Ben]

Oh, yes. And before we get too far away from it, I want to clarify, because I remember it, I did find the explanation of how this museum thing came about. And it's. It's kind of disappointing in what it says about the human condition, because once word of the Guanajuato mummies started spreading around town. Other people in town were apparently sneaking over and paying people who worked at the cemeteries just a couple of pesos to sneak in and take a quick peek. So it was a. The workers were motivated by profit and then they were incentivized, you know, because this burial tax is still around to pull more and more bodies out of the crypt and then find more and more mummies and charge more and more people to see them.

[Noel]

So where were they keeping them before the museum situation took off?

[Ben]

Before the museum, they would. Eventually they would be kept in that ossuary under the graveyard, just like for a rainy day. Well, the official reasoning is just in case the families come back and say we do have the money to pay the burial tax.

[Noel]

But why would they keep them versus burying them outside of town? Like, my understanding was that they kept these because they were so crazy looking and they like.

[Ben]

I think, I think it's a situation again where there was an official reason and then there was a real reason.

[Noel]

Got it.

[Ben]

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[Noel]

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[Ben]

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[Noel]

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[Ben]

Not right now.

[Noel]

@ T Mobile. I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma. That's okay. I don't really have much in my purse.

[Ben]

Oh, let's see.

[Noel]

Hand sanitizer. It's lavender. I'm good.

[Ben]

Seriously.

[Noel]

Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints. Really, I'm fine. Oh, I have raisins.

[Ben]

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[Noel]

Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car.

[Ben]

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[Noel]

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[Ben]

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[Noel]

In 2012, 16 year old Brian Herrera was gunned down in broad daylight on his way to do homework. No suspects, no witnesses, no justice. The call was horrible. I replayed over my head all the time. For years, Brian's family kept asking questions, while a culture of silence kept the case cold.

[Ben]

Snitches get stitches.

[Noel]

Everybody knows it. Still, they refused to give up. I would ask my husband, do you.

[Ben]

Want me just let this go?

[Noel]

He said, no, keep fighting. I told her I would never give.

[Ben]

Up on this case.

[Noel]

And then, after a decade of waiting, a breakthrough.

[Ben]

We received a phone call that was.

[Noel]

Bittersweet because it's a call that we've been waiting for for a very long time. I'm Enrique Santos. This is Cold Case Files Miami, a podcast about justice, persistence, and the families of who never stopped fighting. Listen to Cold Case Files Miami as part of the My Cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

A murder happens, the case goes cold. Then over 100 years later, we take a second look. I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator. And I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a journalist and historian. On our podcast Buried Bones, we reexamine historical true crime cases. Using modern forensic techniques, we dig into what the original investigators may have missed. Growing up on a farm, when I heard a gunshot, I did not immediately think murder. Unless this person went out to shoot squirrels, they're not choosing a.22 to go hunting out there. These cases may be old, but the questions are still relevant and often chilling. I know this chauffeur is not of concern.

[Noel]

You know, it's like, well, he's the.

[Ben]

Last one who saw her alive, so how did they eliminate him? Join us as we take you back to the cold cases that haunt us to this day. New episodes every Wednesday on the exactly Right network. Listen to Buried bones on the iHeartRadio.

[Noel]

App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

The American west with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. Hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores and brought to you by Velvet Buck, this podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian, Dr. Randall Williams and best selling author and meat eater founder Stephen Rinella. I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say, when cave people were here. And I'll say, it seems like the ice Age people that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6, where we'll delve into stories of the west and Come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.

[Noel]

Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. So let's talk about this museum when that started happening.

[Ben]

El Museo de los Mumias, which, you know, the Museum of the mummies.

[Noel]

That's it.

[Ben]

It was the same place where the cemetery workers were just charging people several pesos to enter into the building, see the bones and the mummies, with, again, Dr. Leroy being the first one on display. But when did it officially become a museum instead of this underground display of death?

[Noel]

Yeah, that's right. But like you said before, you know, there was money to be made here and the government wasn't getting those mausoleum lease rental fees, so they figured they would capitalize in another way. And they opened this to the public in the 1950s, and it was actually voted Guanajuato's, I believe, number one tourist attraction. And so for a nominal fee of 2 pesos, you can take a look at the more than 100.

[Ben]

108.

[Noel]

Yeah, 108 dried out human mummies. Natural mummies. And this includes all different types of situations in varying stages of decay, kind of.

[Ben]

Yeah. And you can still see their facial expressions in a lot of cases which, you know, we mentioned the somewhat gruesome details that have allowed investigators to determine who was buried alive and who was buried when they were actually dead.

[Noel]

Well, the one you mentioned that was buried alive actually still has her hands, like, trans, like, you know, covering her eyes.

[Ben]

I think she died biting her arm.

[Noel]

Yeah. And the thing too is most of these cadavers have these just pained expressions as though they're like shrieking in agony. And it's because of what happens when the tongue dries out during this mummification process and the jaw starts to slacken. You start. It kind of looks like the Scream, you know, that. That painting, and this is pretty crazy. Ray Bradbury actually wrote a short story about, based on his visit to this. This museum when he was vacationing with his wife in Guanajuato. And he wrote a story called the Next in Line, where he very vividly describes this. So I'm gonna read a little bit of that for you.

[Ben]

Take it away. Yeah.

[Noel]

Casey, can we get that spooky music back for this? This is this. I think. I think this is. This deserves it. They were screaming. They looked as if they had leaped, snapped upright in their graves, clutched hands over their shriveled bosoms and screamed, jaws wide, tongues out nostrils flared and been frozen that way. All of them had open mouths. There was a perpetual screaming. They were dead and they knew it. In every raw fiber and evaporated organ, they knew it. She stood listening to them scream. They say dogs hear sounds. Humans never hear sounds. So many decibels higher than normal. Hearing that, they seem non existent. The corridor swarmed with screams. Screams poured from terror. Yawned lips and dry tongues. Screams you couldn't here because they were so high.

[Ben]

Not cool.

[Noel]

Ray Bradbury. Not cool. What do you think about that, Ben?

[Ben]

Yeah, I've actually, I've read this story. It's. Ray Bradbury is a fantastic writer and very appropriate for Halloween. The mummy museum also inspired other works of fiction. In the late 1970s, Werner Herzog took a number of shots of these various mummies for the title sequence of his film Nosferatu the Vampire, because he just wanted a morbid, eerie, atmospheric opening sequence.

[Noel]

I remember that sequence and I did not know that, Ben.

[Ben]

And one of the museum's other notable points of interest is that it has the smallest mummy in the world. It is a fetus from the pregnant woman that we had mentioned earlier. It's a heartbreaking thing and it's strange to feel the turns of history so immediate and tactile, you know, because so often we think of these horrific or tragic events as an abstract thing from a history book. But going and seeing these real people is a tremendously profound and moving experience. One other work of fiction that we absolutely have to mention is the film that incorporates the mummies of Guanajuata in a not accurate way is called Santo versus the Mummies of Guanajuato.

[Noel]

Santo being a very popular luchador. Wrestler, Luchador, luchador. These are these wrestlers that wear those cool masks. And this guy was like a real celebrity. And it was almost sort of like Abbott and Costello, you know, meets Frankenstein or whatever. It was like a very well known national figure fighting a very well known national monster.

[Ben]

Yeah, Rodolfo Guzman Huerta, famous wrestler at the time. And we found some various clips of this film, again, made in 1972. And I'm all in. I want to check it out. I want to watch the whole thing. I'll come back with a review if. I'll come back with a review if there's some interest. What makes it relevant for our interest today is that this film spread word of the mummies outside of Mexico and people began to learn about this on an international level.

[Noel]

Yeah, I mean, it started kind of became much more of a fixture of popular culture at the time. And it wasn't really replicated for many years, but it certainly spread awareness and likely upped the value to the government of this place.

[Ben]

Right, right. And this leads us to the ethical question that we've run into before. You know, and that question is, is it right to display the bodies of these people? Certainly. I mean, certainly not with their consent. And we don't know if their family members were asked or if their family members consented.

[Noel]

Yeah. There's actually a quote in this piece from the Guardian that just talks about how there were no laws broken in doing this, that the. The Mexican people have a different attitude towards death, that they don't. I don't know. And it's kind of counter to what I said at the beginning of the show. I would assume that it would be. This would be very disrespect. This would be considered like heresy, kind of, you know, to disinter the people's loved ones. But, you know, the guy that's in charge of this place seems to think differently. Yeah, this guy, Arturo Tiberis, who is the head spokesman for the Guanajuato government, said in this Daily Mail piece. I think I misattributed it to the Guardian earlier that, quote, the museum is an important part of Guanajuato's tourist appeal. Okay, that's your first point. The museum breaks no laws in displaying its exhibit to visitors who are given fair warning of its grounds. Here's the important part. We have a different cultural approach to death in Mexico. Here we celebrate the cycle of life and accept death as inevitable. 99% of the visitors leave the experience pleased with what they saw. But here's the thing. So many of these infants in the museum, of which there are several, are often dressed as saints. So there's one that goes by, they call colloquially Little Saint Martin, who is basically a skeleton of a tiny baby wearing the traditional garb of Saint Martin, something called a cassock, and holding a broom and holding rosary beads. And it is macabre, my friend.

[Ben]

So I'm glad that you mentioned the Guardian, because there's a Guardian piece I remembered I wanted to bring up. It's called why Mexicans Celebrate the Day of the Dead by Antonio Weiss. And in there, it has this just stunning Octavio Paz quote about what he sees as the Mexican attitude with death. He says the Mexican is familiar with death, jokes about it, caresses it, sleeps with it, celebrates it. True, there is as much fear in his attitude as in that of others, but at least death is not hidden away. He Looks at it face to face with impatience, disdain, or irony. And I think that's, you know, maybe that's the. Maybe that's what makes it okay. Maybe this is an important thing rather than an exploitative thing. You know what I mean? Because they can't be making that much money, right? Profit can't be the sole motivation at this point.

[Noel]

It says 4,000 visitors a week. I mean, that's a decent amount of cash.

[Ben]

Yeah, I guess it does add up.

[Noel]

Yeah, sure. It's been open since the 50s. I mean, you know.

[Ben]

Yeah, you're right.

[Noel]

Kind of a bit of a cash cow, if I do say so myself. But I guess what I'm getting at I'm struggling with is there was. Even so this. This tax was relinquished right at the end of the 50s.

[Ben]

In 1958.

[Noel]

In 1958. But there actually was a recent addition to this collection was a baby that died in 1999 at six months old. So I want to clear something up real quick. We actually had a little discussion off mic. The law that required the tax, there was a grave tax, went away in 1958, but there was also, like, you still had to rent these spaces.

[Ben]

You still had to lease the land.

[Noel]

The land. And you would upreach for like 20 years or something like that. Like, it started like a five year, and then if you didn't come back, then they could still remove your loved one's corpse. And that happened with this baby. And the really heartbreaking thing is apparently the baby is in the collection at the museum and the mother, who's still living pretty regularly, comes and visits her infant child.

[Ben]

Yeah, and there's some. The description of how this happens sounds remarkably cold. So if the. If the family, the surviving relatives choose not to pay or resign on that lease, then the body is removed and it goes to the museum's curator, and the curator inspects the corpse to see whether it's good enough to be added to the collection. And I had earlier said the number was 108 corpses in the display, but I believe it's 111 now because they have added some. Hi, Zoe Saldana.

[Noel]

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[Ben]

We'll give you a new iPhone 16.

[Noel]

Pro plus we'll help you pay off your old phone. Up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it. There's always a trade in.

[Ben]

Not right now.

[Noel]

At T Mobile. I feel like I have to give.

[Ben]

You something in return for karma.

[Noel]

That's okay. I don't really have much in my purse.

[Ben]

Oh, let's see.

[Noel]

Hand sanitizer. It's lavender. I'm good.

[Ben]

Seriously.

[Noel]

Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints. Really, I'm fine. Oh, I have raisins.

[Ben]

I'm a mom.

[Noel]

Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car.

[Ben]

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[Noel]

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[Ben]

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[Noel]

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[Ben]

If you pay off early or cancel.

[Noel]

CT mobile.com In 2012, 16 year old Brian Herrera was gunned down in broad daylight on his way to do homework. No suspects, no witnesses, no justice. The call was horrible. I replayed over my head all the time. For years, Brian's family kept asking questions while a culture of silence kept the case cold.

[Ben]

Snitches get stitches.

[Noel]

Everybody knows it. Still, they refused to give up. I would ask my husband, do you.

[Ben]

Want me just let this go?

[Noel]

He said, no, keep fighting. I told her I would never give.

[Ben]

Up on this case.

[Noel]

And then, after a decade of waiting, a breakthrough.

[Ben]

We received a phone call that was.

[Noel]

Bittersweet because it's a call that we've been waiting for for a very long time.

[Ben]

Name?

[Noel]

I'm Enrique Santos. This is Cold Case Files Miami, a podcast about justice, persistence, and the families who never stopped fighting. Listen to Cold Case Files Miami as part of the Mike Ultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

A murder happens, the case goes cold. Then, over 100 years later, we take a second look. I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator. And I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a journalist and historian. On our podcast Buried Bones, we re examined historical true crime cases using modern forensic techniques. We dig into what the original investigators may have missed. Growing up on a farm, when I heard a gunshot, I did not immediately think murder. Unless this person went out to shoot squirrels. They're not choosing a 22 to go hunting out there. These cases may be old, but the questions are still relevant and often chilling. I know this chauffeur is not of concern.

[Noel]

You know, it's like, well, he's the.

[Ben]

Last one who saw our life, so how did they eliminate him? Join us as we take you back to the cold cases that haunt us to this day. New episodes every Wednesday on the Exactly Right network. Listen to Buried bones on the iHeartRadio.

[Noel]

App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

The American west with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. Hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores and brought to you by Velvet Buck, this podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian, Dr. Randall Williams and best selling author and Meat eater founder, Stephen Rinella. Oh, correct my kids now and then where they'll say, when cave people were here. And I'll say, it seems like the ice age people that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6, where we'll delve into stories of the west and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.

[Noel]

Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever, wherever you get your podcasts. I hope that wasn't too confusing with the difference between the grave tax and the lease, because they were two different things and it threw me for a little bit.

[Ben]

But no, we got there. I think we did.

[Noel]

I think we did. So what's next? Yeah, this sounds like a place that I would be intrigued. I mean, I'm into kind of like this sort of dark type stuff. I went to the Museum of Death in LA and quite enjoyed that, even though some of it was even a little, little much for me. A lot of like embalming videos and, you know, murder crime scene photographs and things like that. But do you think this is right, Ben? Do you think this is of value to society to be able to experience death in such a raw, you know, kind of detached way? It's interesting to me.

[Ben]

I mean, that's the question I asked earlier in the show. You know, ethically, is this more useful to humanity as a memorial, as a, a way of educating people, or is it exploitative? It seems like the museum itself has a lot of support from the local community and it is of benefit to science because we're able to research the process of natural mummification. Texas State University had some great research on how this stuff occurs and how the Environment interacts with the corpse. But I would say it's similar to. Did you ever see that bodies exhibit?

[Noel]

I never did, but I've seen photographs of it. These are the perfectly preserved cadavers where you see the muscles and all that stuff.

[Ben]

And it's fascinating. Yeah. Where you see organs or the circulatory system or nervous system taken out and kind of plasticized to give you a better look at human anatomy. But those people, when they were alive, didn't consent to that, right? Surely not in every case. And we have to ask ourselves, at what point does the benefit to science or the benefit to history outweigh the ethical pitfalls of displaying someone's corpse after they die? I will say that if I'm in that town, I will go visit just because I think it's. In a way it would feel more like a memorial or commemorating the deaths of those people. And these were not, for the most part, these were not well off folks. These were.

[Noel]

That's sort of the point, right?

[Ben]

Yeah. These were common people. Yeah.

[Noel]

I mean, the idea they had to, you know, because, I mean, rich people would have been able to buy a plot. Right. You certainly didn't have to lease. That's not the law. It's just they couldn't afford to buy a grave plot, so they were able to lease it in one of these municipal cemeteries, mausoleums or whatever, Right?

[Ben]

Absolutely. And I would err on the side of scientific benefit and historical commemoration. Guanajuato's mayor, Dr. Eduardo Hicks, back in 2007, initiated the Guanajuato Mummy Research Project and invited several scientists to go down and spend more than a year exploring the origin and the development of the mummies. And it's also been a subject of National Geographic documentary series, which I'm gonna tell you the name of it. I haven't seen the series, but the name throws me off. You ready?

[Noel]

I am.

[Ben]

The Mummy Roadshow.

[Noel]

Nice. So it's sort of like the Antiques Roadshow but with mummies.

[Ben]

Yeah, I feel like. Yeah, that's a little glib. But in these recent years, they've learned a lot about the people, the individuals who were interred here and then later displayed in this museum. It's an incredibly interesting article and if you. You would like to read it, let me know on ridiculous historians and we can just post it up there. And if you are a person who does not want to see any of the visuals of this stuff, we completely understand this particular article has no photographs.

[Noel]

Well, I think that's a pretty good place to leave it, there's certainly. If you're into photographs, there's plenty of them out there. And these are really pretty upsetting images, to be honest. But it's also. They're strangely beautiful, I want to say haunting, very haunting, as you may have gotten from that Ray Bradbury passage. And it really apparently severely affected him and that he felt the need to write this piece to kind of exorcise some of those demons from himself. And I could see that. I wonder what it smells like in there, Ben. Probably kind of musty, like an old library or something. Because these corpses would not have had a smell of putrefaction because everything was just dried up.

[Ben]

Right. The mummification happened so rapidly, like a lot of museums. It probably just smells old in some inexplicable way. But our senses are so vulnerable to our pre existing mental states. Right. So maybe we are mentally capturing the smell. You know what, it probably smells like cleaning. Cleaning supplies because there's a lot of glass. So I'm sure they have to use a ton of Windex. So it probably smells faintly clean.

[Noel]

Yeah, maybe a little bit of a chemical smell.

[Ben]

And I have a question too. So so far we have. We have covered a very interesting specific type of vampire native to the Philippines. We've looked at mummies, although they were not monster mummies from an old Universal horror film or something. What particular monsters or historical cases of monstrosity should we look at next? Should we look at the trials of werewolves? That's always an interesting, strange path to go on.

[Noel]

One of the things we did the other night when we had a game night at the office, played a game called Werewolf where I ended up falsely accusing several of my closest friends and co workers of being werewolves and had them lynched. And they, they didn't deserve that, Ben. They were. They were village. They were townspeople the whole time. I'll never be able to forgive myself for that.

[Ben]

They probably won't be able to forgive you either.

[Noel]

That's okay. I deserve it.

[Ben]

It's probably the end of it.

[Noel]

I deserve it. But in their memory, we should in fact research something about werewolves. I think that's smart.

[Ben]

Yeah. Let us know if there's a werewolf story that particularly stands out to you. I'd love to, Ben. You might be sane. But how. How on earth do I contact you guys? Well, it's quite simple. We've got good news. If you are on the Internet, you can find us on Instagram, you can find us on Twitter, you can find us on Facebook in particular, check us out on Ridiculous Historians. Our Facebook community page, where you can talk with your fellow listeners, all of whom, I assure you, are brilliant, wonderful people with great taste in podcast. Right? That's pretty good.

[Noel]

Yeah, yeah, I support that. Let's thank our super producer, Casey Pegram for, you know, being super, as always. Thanks to our friend and colleague, Alex Williams, who composed our theme.

[Ben]

Thanks to Christopher Haciotes and Yves Jeffcoat, our research associates. A thank you to Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quizzter, who's been quiet lately.

[Noel]

Yeah, thank God.

[Ben]

Oh, folks, I suspect Noel. Really? No. You like him? You're friends with.

[Noel]

Sure, Whatever you say, Ben.

[Ben]

Oh, man. All right, well, I will try to keep the Quizzter heat off of you, my friend.

[Noel]

I'm kidding. I welcome it. I need a little, little kick in the pants every now and then. Who better to do it than that guy?

[Ben]

And most importantly, I'm gonna thank you for bringing this great story to the show.

[Noel]

Oh, man, no problem. It was a lot of fun. That's not the right thing at all. It wasn't really fun at all. It was kind of disturbing and upsetting. But I'd rather. There's no one I'd rather be disturbed and upset with in this world, Ben, than you. And you folks, we'll see you next time. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. In 2012, 16 year old Brian Herrera was gunned down in broad daylight on his way to do homework. No suspects, no witnesses, no justice. I would ask my husband, do you want me to stop? He was like, no, keep fighting. After nearly a decade, a breakthrough changed everything. This is Cold Case Files Miami. Stories of families who never stopped fighting. Listen to Cold Case Files Miami on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.