CLASSIC: The Weird Life of George Washington, Part 2

Summary

Ridiculous History

CLASSIC: The Weird Life of George Washington, Part 2

Released: December 30, 2025
Hosts: Ben Bowlin & Noel Brown
Guests: Christopher Haciotes, Casey Pegram (super producer)

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Episode Overview

In the second installment of their deep-dive into the quirks and contradictions of America's first president, Ben, Noel, and guest Christopher Haciotes examine George Washington’s oddities, medical maladies, infamous hair routine, and deeply complicated legacy as a slaveowner. Blending characteristic wit with sobering honesty, the hosts challenge the myth of Washington while reveling in the peculiarities that have made him an enduring (and sometimes ridiculous) figure in U.S. history.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Revisiting George Washington: Beyond the Myth [04:17–06:00]

• The team resumes exploring Washington as a real, fallible human, not just a stoic figure on money.
• Banter includes playful asides about creating a presidential theme park ("Washington's muddy hole" ride).

2. Obscure Presidents and Legacy [06:10–09:27]

• Brief tangent on forgettable presidents and why some, like Andrew Johnson, land at the bottom of the rankings.
  • Quote: "I think a lot of Americans would be hard pressed to name Andrew Johnson. And I gotta tell you, I think it's because his name's a little generic." – Christopher Haciotes [08:11]
• Discussion segues to Washington’s willingness to learn from others—contrasted with less distinguished leaders.

3. The Sickliest President? Washington’s Medical Misadventures [10:45–12:18]

• Medical Conditions: Washington survived a gauntlet of illnesses—diphtheria, tuberculosis, smallpox, dysentery, malaria, quinsy (tonsillitis), carbuncle, pneumonia, and epiglottitis.

• Infertility Theories: Modern research suggests Washington’s possible infertility might be tied to tuberculosis infection.

  • Quote: "He was one of the sickliest presidents in U.S. history... In fact, he was so afflicted that people started speculating this may have played a role in his infertility." – Ben [10:45]

• Carbuncles: Playful interlude about the grossness of carbuncles, with Noel expressing regret at Googling them (“Not good.” [12:18]), and a group vote against posting images online.

  • Memorable moment: Three-way vote to keep carbuncle images off social, “I’m taking a triple vote and I’m voting no.” – Christopher Haciotes [12:50]

4. Washington’s Lack of Children: Impact on Legacy [13:20–14:15]

• Discussion on how Washington’s childlessness cemented his private and public legacy, sparing the "idiot sons" phenomenon often seen in dynasties.
  • Quote: "He set things in motion, and he stepped back and that was it, quite possibly." – Christopher Haciotes [13:29]

5. Washington as Slaveholder: The Oney Judge Story [18:40–27:44]

• Scope of Slavery: At his death, Washington held legal control over 123 slaves, plus 193 “dower” slaves through Martha.
• Detailed legalities reveal a labyrinthine, often cold approach to human life as property.
• Oney (Ona) Judge: Her daring escape and the relentless efforts by the Washingtons to recapture her spotlight the darker truths of Washington’s legacy.
  • Quote: "Oney Judge was a slave that Washington pursued until the end of his life... he encouraged kidnapping. At the time, he probably saw it as a return of property." – Christopher Haciotes [22:00]
• Pennsylvania Law Dodge: Washington skirted anti-slavery laws by rotating enslaved people out of state.
  • “He would rotate his slaves between the home in Pennsylvania and Virginia... so that they would not qualify or meet certain criteria under Pennsylvania law.” – Christopher Haciotes [24:38]
• Oney Judge lived as a fugitive her entire life despite winning her freedom in practice.

6. Addressing the Myth & Responsibility [27:44–28:39]

• The hosts reflect on the importance of confronting the uncomfortable aspects of revered figures.
  • Quote: "I think it is an unpleasant and disturbing part of the story, but I believe that same disturbing aspect is what makes it crucial that we... remember what happened." – Ben [27:44]

7. The Hair Routine: Truth vs. Portraits [32:12–39:53]

• Not a Wig: That iconic white hair was Washington’s own, laboriously styled and powdered.
  • Used colored powders—talcum, chalk, etc.—to achieve the signature look; sometimes wore a paper cone to avoid inhaling powder.
  • Quote: "That weird peruke-looking do that Washington was sporting was not in fact a wig. Those were his natural hairs and he went to great lengths to coif them as such.” – Noel [33:36]
• Portraits are misleading—occasional historical images show him with “dandruffy” powder.
  • Quote: "Portraits are not always an accurate representation of what someone might really look like." – Christopher Haciotes [38:54]
• Link to a National Geographic article with illustrations is promised.

8. Military Titles & Odd Trivia [39:33–39:49]

• Recap of some Washingtonian oddities: no middle name, highest military command, whiskey tycoon, Freemason, etc.

9. Washington’s Bizarre Demise [40:04–41:18]

• After surviving so many illnesses, Washington died not from disease but iatrogenic harm—he was bled to death by a doctor.
  • Quote: “He did have all these maladies, but in 1799... what historians think really killed him is a doctor... Medical malpractice." – Christopher Haciotes [40:27]
  • "Four rounds of bloodletting removed something like five pints of blood from the president.” – Ben [40:39]
  • Classic punchline: "Well, that’s why they call it practicing medicine." – Noel [41:15]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Do you think the fact that George Washington didn't have children kind of cemented his legacy? You know, that he didn't have kids who could kind of tarnish the Washington [name]?” — Christopher Haciotes [13:20]
• “That weird peruke-looking do that Washington was sporting was not in fact a wig. Those were his natural hairs and he went to great lengths to coif them as such.” — Noel [33:36]
• “He would rotate his slaves... so that they would not qualify or meet certain criteria under Pennsylvania law.” — Christopher Haciotes [24:38]
• “I think it's more accurate to look at history as it was, to look at the man as he was, and to acknowledge that this was part of a complicated life.” — Christopher Haciotes [26:22]
• “After four rounds of bloodletting [his doctor] removed something like five pints of blood from the president.” — Ben [40:39]

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Important Timestamps

• Opening banter and guest introduction: 04:17
• Obscure presidents tangent: 06:46–09:27
• Medical maladies and infertility speculations: 10:45–12:18
• Washington’s childlessness and legacy: 13:20–14:15
• Exploring Washington’s slaveholding, Oney Judge escape: 18:40–27:44
• Reflection on telling uncomfortable truths: 27:44–28:39
• The truth about Washington’s hair and styling routine: 32:12–39:53
• Military trivia and the end-of-life bloodletting: 39:33–41:18

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Tone and Style

The hosts and guest strike a balance between humorously scrutinizing the oddities of Washington’s life and respectfully (yet frankly) confronting the grim realities of his role as a slaveholder. The playful banter and absurd jokes are tempered by a commitment to historical honesty and empathy for those affected by history’s less savory truths.

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides a multidimensional look at George Washington, from his questionable hair routine to the tragic reality of slavery, medical misadventures, and the mythmaking that surrounds his name. Listeners come away with a fuller, more complicated image of America’s first president—one that both delights in the ridiculous and does not shy away from the uncomfortable.

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For more details and visuals (minus carbuncles), visit the Ridiculous Historians Facebook group or the show’s social media pages.

Transcript

[Ben]

Oh, fellow ridiculous historians, we're back. We couldn't leave you without a dope podcast to step two. This is step two. Step two. This is the second part of our exploration of the very weird life of George Washington. And Nola was remembering this. Our pal, none other than Casey Pegram is on here with our returning friend of the show, Christopher Haciotes. And I think, dude, I think this is one of the ones where after we recorded this, we both went to Kayce and, like, desperately sought his validation.

[Noel]

Oh, always love that guy.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Crave his validation.

[Ben]

We're talking about George Washington's weird hair routine. We're all see horse teeth. Does that come up?

[Noel]

It has to come up.

[Ben]

Oh, it has to come up. Oh, it has to. We I think we also talk about the fact that there was, as you said in our intro to part one, there was a real man behind the myth here, and he had a lot of medical issues that plagued him throughout his life that were frankly, bizarre. Like, bizarre.

[Noel]

Well, why don't we hear all about it? Let's roll the tape.

[Ben]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Noel]

It means playing in a football game.

[Ben]

Boom. 42. You're going down, Doug.

[Rob Gronkowski]

Oh, yeah.

[Noel]

Your price on car insurance when you.

[Ben]

Customize and save is going down. Hey, limu, what are you doing on their team?

[Noel]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Noel]

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[Noel]

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[Ben]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Foreign.

[Ben]

Don't call it a comeback, friends and neighbors, or actually, go ahead and please do so, because this is part two of our continuing series on Weird George Washington Facts. Welcome to the show. My name is Ben.

[Noel]

My name is Noel.

[Ben]

We are joined with our super producer, Casey Pegram and our returning special guest. It's an immense privilege to have you on the show anytime. Christopher Haciotes.

[Christopher Haciotes]

What a delight to be here. Thank you.

[Noel]

And Ben, you've got your groove back, my friend. You're glowing. You're absolutely glowing.

[Ben]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. It's all the hemp. Very versatile crop. Very versatile crop, yes.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Is that shirt you're wearing woven from hemp?

[Ben]

Yes. Yes, it is. And as are my shoes and my coat.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Undergarments? Is that what you're going to say? Undergarments?

[Ben]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Traded in the Mithril.

[Ben]

I did. I finally upgraded from mithril to hemp. So this is, as we mentioned, part two of a two part series. If you have not checked out part one of our George Washington facts, it's okay. Don't stress out.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, just hit pause, you know, and shake your fists at the podcast gods that list the shows in reverse chronological order and just scroll back and listen to the show from two days ago.

[Ben]

Yeah, that's such a bummer when they list them in that reverse order.

[Christopher Haciotes]

You know, I believe that the iHeartRadio app, you can swap things around and point them in the other direction and start from earlier and go towards later.

[Noel]

That's crazy talk who would ever do that?

[Ben]

What a time to be alive.

[Christopher Haciotes]

The industry is a morphing thing. So.

[Ben]

So we set up the basic gist of George Washington's life in our earlier episode. And now what do you say, gentlemen? Should we dive straight into the weird stuff?

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, there's a whole bunch of strangeness to get into.

[Noel]

I say let's dive down that Washington hole.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Was it the muddy hole?

[Ben]

The muddy hole.

[Christopher Haciotes]

The muddy hole.

[Noel]

Washington's muddy. Let's dive down Washington's muddy hole.

[Christopher Haciotes]

That sounds like the worst ride at the presidential theme park of my dreams.

[Ben]

Oh, yeah, that's the one where there's never a line.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah. Lincoln's spooky Log cabin. I think, man, if I had a lot of extra time, we could just come up with theme rides. And for every single president that's out.

[Noel]

There, weird glitching robot.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Noel]

Abe Lincoln's spewing sparks in the Ford Theater.

[Christopher Haciotes]

The Taft bathtub. You've got to escape Taft tub. Taff tub.

[Noel]

That's full of old beans.

[Ben]

Full of old beings.

[Christopher Haciotes]

They all.

[Ben]

Yeah. And then we get. We get weird because we would have the most fun, I think, with more obscure presidents like Pierce.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Do you think he's the most obscure he.

[Ben]

You know, that's a matter of personal opinion, isn't it?

[Christopher Haciotes]

That's why I'm asking you, maybe personally.

[Ben]

Oh, you're asking me personally.

[Christopher Haciotes]

We're here just you and me and, well, I guess Noel and Casey and millions and millions of listeners.

[Ben]

But yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Who is the most obscure president? I have great fascination with those lists that come out every so often of ranking presidents from best to worst. And they usually don't do. Every single president, they usually do maybe the top five best ones and the bottom five worst ones. And I gotta say, the bottom five are usually the same couple of dudes.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, you've got the obscure ones. You've got your Pierce, your Millard Fillmore, you know, William McKinley, who was very popular at the time but just kind of was forgotten, even though he was killed and was involved in a lot of different things. So one who's constantly at the bottom of the list is Andrew Johnson. He's the one who kind of after Lincoln's assassination, he took over, but he didn't manage the situation well. He let the country fester. Things were not handled well. Reconstruction was not handled in a way that maybe looked towards future generations. But I think a lot of Americans would be hard pressed to name Andrew Johnson. And I gotta tell you, I think it's because his name's a little generic.

[Ben]

It is, it is. It's a real. It's a real John Doe.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah. It's just not as memorable if he had some sort of villainous name or if he had some sort of name. But, you know, I mean, maybe it's better that his name is a little more kind of milquetoast and banal because honestly, that's how some of the things that fall apart in politics do. So it's just sort of through no specific malice, through no ill will, it just sort of the banality of things kind of things fall apart.

[Noel]

All right, so we're talking about bad presidents. Where's our boy G Dub? Fall apart.

[Christopher Haciotes]

That's true. This is an episode about George Washington.

[Ben]

Oh, I do want to point out, did you know that Andrew Johnson never went to school?

[Noel]

Is it sort of like I never learned to read and I somehow managed to become president. Turns out I was bad at it.

[Ben]

I think the closest he got to a formal education was when his wife taught him the basics like basic mathematics and writing.

[Christopher Haciotes]

And so. So he is one of the worst regarded presidents. So maybe we can draw some conclusions that an intellectual curiosity and education, these are things that are important for a president. That the desire to learn, the admission that maybe other people have more information than you and that you should rely on them for information like that. That's a thing a president should espouse, to aspire to.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah, I think. I think that's solid. And I don't think that's a controversial point at all. We know that George Washington had no problem learning from other people, and he took advice pretty well. Segue.

[Noel]

Well done. Expertly played, my friend. I know that means you have to.

[Ben]

Go first, especially the part where you say segue. Yeah.

[Noel]

Just so you guys know, Ben's doing this really sweet move where he's drawing his forefinger and thumb together from them touching each other to apart in the same cadence as he sang Segue. And it's a slow parting of the Red Sea.

[Ben]

We actually made this a two part episode because we wanted to split. Spend some time really focusing on that hand gesture.

[Noel]

We're really trying to up our vamp game. And whenever Christopher Haciotis joins us in the tank here, it's just magic. Sparks fly.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, but. Well, that's true. Sparks did fly earlier. No, you were electrocuted slightly by your headphones.

[Noel]

That's true. They flew right into my.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Are you saying that's my fault?

[Ben]

You are.

[Noel]

You all.

[Christopher Haciotes]

You do have a bit of an electric personality.

[Noel]

I'm not.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Not saying that.

[Ben]

Is this. Is this part of his. Are you still a little weirded out by the mic situation? Is this part of a revenge scheme?

[Christopher Haciotes]

No. What happens is I'm wearing wool socks. And before you gu came in here, I was just running back and forth on the rug.

[Noel]

Yeah, classic.

[Ben]

We just call that a haciotis at the office.

[Christopher Haciotes]

You got zapped.

[Ben]

So I will go first. This is a little bit stranger. This is not a social activity of George Washington, nor is it a political activity. This is a medical fact about the guy. He was one of the sickliest presidents in U.S. history. Over the span of his life, he suffered from the diphtheria, tuberculosis, smallpox, dysentery, malaria, Quincy, which was tonsillitis, carbuncle, pneumonia and epiglottitis. In fact, he was so afflicted that people started speculating this may have played a role in his infertility. Because Washington did not have issue, as they would say in the world of aristocracy. And it's well known that he had no children of his own. In 2007, a man named John K. Amory at the UN University of Washington School of Medicine proposed that it wasn't for lack of trying. Instead, he said Washington may quite possibly have been infertile. And Armory lists a number of possible reasons for this infertility, including an infection caused by tuberculosis. We have a quote here wherein he says, classic studies of soldiers with tuberculosis during World War II demonstrated that 2/3 developed chronic organ tuberculosis within five years of their initial infection. Infection of the epididymis, or testes is seen in 20% of these individuals and frequently results in infertility.

[Noel]

Dude, I just made a horrible mistake. I googled images of carbuncles. Not good.

[Christopher Haciotes]

I'm guessing you are not seeing the image of the cute little monster from the Final Fantasy video games. Was that his name? There was one called a carbuncle. Really? I think.

[Noel]

Interesting.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Please, please. Ridiculous historians. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Noel]

These are disgusting pus filled boils that cover one's body when afflicted with them.

[Ben]

And it's not a carbohydrate loving uncle.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Nope. Oh, this is something we will not be posting photos of on ridiculous historians.

[Ben]

Well, let's not be too hasty.

[Christopher Haciotes]

I'm going to. I'm not even a regular host here, but can I put this to a vote? Do I get a full vote? I'm going to take. I'm taking a triple vote and I'm voting no. Photos of carbuncles on ridiculous historians. Three against two.

[Noel]

I support that.

[Ben]

I support. I see to the gentleman to my left.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I.

[Noel]

You know, but I'm just saying, if you, you know, if you want to gross yourself out, just Google Carbuncle.

[Ben]

If you want to have a really disturbing. The more, you know, moment with the star flying over your head as you throw up a little bit in your mouth. Carbuncle.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Do you think the fact that George Washington didn't have children kind of cemented his legacy? You know, that he didn't have kids who could kind of tarnish the Washington?

[Noel]

He was the one.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, he was. He was alone. He set things in motion, and he stepped back and that was it, quite possibly.

[Ben]

I mean, that's. That's a very good point, I would say.

[Noel]

And it's so rare for people to do that at that level because, I mean, they have all these idiot sons that go and screw it all up for him.

[Ben]

You're not talking about Ben Stiller, are you?

[Noel]

I'm talking about one of the things that I know you hate is nepotism.

[Christopher Haciotes]

You talk about the Adams. Is those guys, too. The Bushes.

[Ben]

The Bushes, the Roosevelts.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Look, well, those guys are like distant cousins. You can't really. I mean, they came from a big, big family.

[Ben]

I know, but name recognition is still key. I totally see your point there, Christopher. Just like Justice Kennedy is not related to the former President Kennedy.

[Christopher Haciotes]

True.

[Ben]

Right. So there shouldn't be any law barring them from occupying positions of power. You know what I mean? I'm just saying that it's very strange to explain to someone from another country or another culture that this is purportedly a meritocracy and then say in the same breath that despite being a meritocracy, through some amazing coincidence, the most qualified people for a job happen to be related to each other pretty often. But that just further underlines the point that you make with Washington. Perhaps he was a safe figure to mythologize. Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here. And hi, I'm Kal Penn, and we're the hosts of Irsay, The Audible, and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice.

[Noel]

This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer.

[Ben]

What role would I play?

[Christopher Haciotes]

You know what?

[Ben]

I can see you as Mr. Darcy.

[Christopher Haciotes]

You got a little call in Firth. Okay, that's really sweet.

[Ben]

I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad.

[Noel]

I'm not Mr. Bennett.

[Ben]

Here, listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Everybody knows Shaq, but off camera, he's just a regular guy. People never believe me when I say I'm just like them. I take out the tr, do dishes, and I struggle with moderate obstructive sleep apnea, or osa. And a lot of adults with obesity also struggle with moderate to severe osa. You know, those scary breathing interruptions during sleep, the loud snoring, choking, and daytime fatigue. I knew I had to talk to my doctor. Don't sleep on the symptoms. Learn more@don'tsleeponosa.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company and Doug. What a horrible call. Hey, ref. Open your eyes, ref. You're really not gonna call that. Come. Hey, ref, why didn't you customize your car insurance with Liberty Mutual and save money?

[Christopher Haciotes]

I don't think you get what we're doing.

[Ben]

Sure I do.

[Noel]

We're all just giving him advice. You guys on sports, me on saving money.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Nope, that's not it.

[Noel]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty.

[Ben]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

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[Ben]

While he did not have children, one thing that he did have was a non consensual workforce.

[Christopher Haciotes]

That's true. One of the things I wanted to talk about was Washington's slaveholding. It's not really a happy topic because we're talking about enslaved people, but it's a fact of life at the time, especially for landowners. And Washington had control over hundreds of slaves, more than 300 people. Washington gets a lot of credit for quote, unquote, freeing his slaves in his will. That's one thing that people who defend the practice of enslaving others when it comes to Washington, who is rightly revered as one of the fathers of our country and who put a lot of great systems in motion. But that doesn't change the fact that he ran this giant plantation. And a plantation of that size in what's sort of the south at the time was run essentially on the free labor of enslaved Africans. And at the time of his death, Washington owned more than 300 slaves. He inherited his first slave at 11 when his father passed away. So you had this young man, George Washington, who was born into a life of maintaining control over other human beings. When he passed in 1799, he had 123 slaves who were legally his. And then there were 193 that he also controlled that were known as dower slaves. And what that means is they were technically legally owned by his wife, Martha. Now, Martha married George when she was 25. She was a widow at the time, and she had taken on slaves both from her own family and from her ex husband who passed away. So it's really, really interesting and it can be kind of fascinating to look at the legal structure of slavery until you remember that we're talking about actual human beings. But the way that slavery and the legality of who owns what was structured in the 1700s is it's just to me, it's so odd that you can be talking about a human being in this way. So the 123 slaves that Washington himself had, they were matched with 193, which were legally Martha's, but as a married couple were legally controlled by George. And there's all this strange legalese that when George or Martha dies, certain segments of the Washingtonian Slaves are passed to a grandchild or a cousin, and it all depends on this sort of weird, patriarchal, but then also matrilineal lineage of ownership of another person. But there is one enslaved person that I want to talk about, and that's Onei Judge. Now, Oney Judge is one of the most well known enslaved people involved in Washington, and that's because she escaped. She was able to tell her story to abolitionist newspapers at the time and got her account out there. Now, what makes this such a strange bit of history is that Oney Judge was a slave that Washington pursued until the end of his life. She got away. And if you listen to the episode from last week, Noel talked about how Washington's thoughts on slavery were somewhat liberal and they evolved over time. And that's true. He did grow to oppose the idea of slavery, the idea of holding other people in bondage. But he never freed his own slaves. He still kept them enslaved. He used their free labor and he built his fortune and his empire, whether it was a large fortune or not, on the labor of others. So let's talk about Oni Judd. She was born in 1773. She probably came into the Washington family when she was around 10 or 11 and was purchased as a playmate, it's thought, for one of the family members. Now, Ownie has her own interesting history. Her father was a British businessman. He was white, but he never acknowledged paternity. And so she was able to be sold into slavery. And that's where she comes in. Now, in 1796, Oney learned that she was going to be gifted to Washington's granddaughter. And when we talk about the granddaughters of Washington, basically we're talking about the children of Martha Washington and kind of her folks, because as we just mentioned, George himself never had any kids. And so in 1796, Oni learns that she's going to be gifted, presented as a wedding present to these new newlyweds. So she escapes. In May of 1796, she, she flies the coop and for a couple years she's, she's free. But a couple years later, she's spotted in New Hampshire. And this whole time the Washington family is, is after her. They've lost property. Despite the fact that Washington had mixed feelings about slavery, it seems like from the historical record that a lot of his family, including Martha, did not have mixed feelings. And they felt pretty strongly that enslaved Africans were their property and were owned wholly by them. So they took out ads in local papers advertising a reward for the return of Oni. And a couple years later, she's spotted in New Hampshire, and Washington reaches out to a friend of his in New Hampshire and asks him to abduct Oni to return this person back to Mount Vernon. And so, you know, he's encouraging kidnapping. At the time, he probably saw it as a return of property. But the thing about Washington and his slave holding is it wasn't as straightforward. It wasn't wholly villainous as it's easy to paint, but it also wasn't wholly by the books. Washington was pretty eager to skirt some of the laws when it came to slavery. When he was president, he was living in Philadelphia, which at the time was the capital of the United States. And Pennsylvania had certain laws for slaveholders and citizens of Pennsylvania because at the time, different states had their own citizenship. Washington argued, though, that he was a citizen of Virginia so that he didn't have to abide by some of the slavery laws of Pennsylvania.

[Ben]

Oh, wow.

[Christopher Haciotes]

He also would rotate his slaves between the home in Pennsylvania and Virginia for periods of time of less than six months, just moving them around like property so that they would not qualify or meet certain criteria under Pennsylvania law. So this is a man who saw financial assets, who pursued them as. As they escaped. And until his death, he tried to get Oni back. Thankfully, Oni was. Was never returned. She was captured at one point, and she tried to negotiate with Washington. She said. She sent message saying, look, I will willingly be returned to enslavement with your family if you promise that upon your death and the death of Martha, I am free. And Washington didn't even negotiate. He said, I'm not even going to consider these demands because doing so would set a bad precedent. And this is not. You don't negotiate with property, essentially.

[Ben]

Wow.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah. And I wish there were a happy ending to this story. There's also not a sad ending to the story. Oni. Eventually, she stayed in New Hampshire. She was not returned to the Washington family. She married a sailor named Jack Staines. Over their married life, they had three kids who then had their own children. But the fact of the matter is that throughout the rest of her life, even though she had escaped enslavement by the Washington family, she lived as a fugitive under the Fugitive Slave act, which Washington signed into law. And until her dying day in 1848, she lived as a fugitive. There was always, always, always a chance that she could be taken back to Virginia.

[Noel]

It's terrifying to live. I can't imagine. So, no. Not a happy ending at all, huh?

[Christopher Haciotes]

No. And it's, you know, I don't I don't want to tarnish the legacy of a great American, but we also don't need to look back and over mythologize someone. I think it's more accurate to look at history as it was, to look at the man as he was, and to acknowledge that this was part of a complicated life and he had complicated feelings. And as America has evolved and continues to evolve, so too did Washington, just not at the pace that it would be nice to acknowledge. Again, people say that he freed all of his slaves in his will. The fact of the matter is that after he died, of Those more than 300 slaves that he had control over, only one, a man named William Lee, was set free. Martha dragged things out for a lot of the other hundreds of slaves. They were still enslaved for decades. Eventually, some of them gained their freedom, but again, we're talking 5, 10, 15 years. So despite. Despite George Washington's will and his desire to set his slaves free, which, I might add, is after he's left this earth and after he has to deal with the ramifications of what that means, he still, throughout his life, benefited from their free labor. It still took years and years and years for the people that he enslaved to find their freedom.

[Ben]

And we would be remiss if we did not point out these facts. You know, I think it is an unpleasant and disturbing part of the story, but I believe that same disturbing aspect is what makes it crucial that we, not just us on the show, not just us listening, but we as a country, remember what happened. Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here, and hi, I'm Kal Penn, and we're the hosts of Irsay, The Audible, and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question.

[Noel]

There's no wrong answer.

[Ben]

What role would I play?

[Christopher Haciotes]

You know what?

[Ben]

I can see you as Mr. Darcy.

[Christopher Haciotes]

You got a little Colin Firth. Okay, that's really sweet.

[Ben]

I appreciate that.

[Noel]

But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett here.

[Ben]

Listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcast. Everybody knows Shaq, but off camera, he's just a regular guy. People never believe me when I say I'm just like them. I take out the trash, do dishes, and I struggle with moderate obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA and a lot of adults with obesity also struggle with moderate to severe osa. You know those scary breathing, interruptions during sleep, the loud snoring, choking and daytime fatigue. I knew I had to talk to my doctor. Don't sleep on the symptoms. Learn more at don'tsleeponosa.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company and Doug Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[Noel]

Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

[Ben]

Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Fairy Unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates excludes.

[Rob Gronkowski]

Massachusetts this is Rob Gronkowski from Dudes on Dudes with Gronk and jules. For the second season in a row, I partnered with T Mobile's Friday night 5G lights, powering up hometown football across America. This year, T mobile invested over $4 million in prizes to help schools take their Friday nights to the next level. The votes are in. And now it's time to crown our $1 million grand prize winner. Congratulations to Derrick's High school and Derrick's Arkansas, home of the Outlaws and your 2025 T mobile Friday night 5G lights champion. The Outlaws and their community rallied to help them score a game changing home field upgrade, a Gronk Fitness weight room makeover, an epic 2026 tailgate party and a VIP trip to the SEC championship game. To every school that competed posted and rallied your communities. Thank you and to T Mobile for making it all possible. This season may be over, but the story isn't. Stay tuned for season three in 2026. Congratulations again to Derek's High School Outlaws.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Flu season is here and the in store pharmacy has you covered with a free flu shot with most insurance plans. And as a thank you, get up to 20 off your grocery purchase. Plus it's cough and cold season. Stock up on all the season's essentials and get ready for relief with discounts on items like Hall's Menthol cough drops, Tylenol Cold and Flu and Mucinex Fast Max products. Offer ends December 30th. Restrictions apply and offers may vary by location. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.

[Ben]

I've got to say, Christopher, I feel that it would be weird for us to end on such a very serious, somber note. What do you think you're the guest today. What do you think about us exploring one more strange George Washington fact?

[Christopher Haciotes]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, a man contains multitudes and there's a lot to George Washington and he's one of the foundational characters of our country and there's so much to know about him. So, yeah, like, let's turn to Noel. Noel, can you dig us out of this slavery hole?

[Noel]

This muddy hole? Yeah, yeah. Only our original idea of the muddy hole was much more whimsical.

[Ben]

Yeah, I'm not so, you know, now I'm not as on board as I was with finding this guy a cool middle name.

[Noel]

No, no. So we all know the classic Washingtonian look, the profile, you know, with the what appears to be a powdered wig of some sort.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, it's what they all wore at the time. Like a peruke.

[Noel]

A peruke.

[Ben]

A peruke. Well done, Christopher. Except for Benjamin Franklin.

[Noel]

Franklin, that's right. Benjamin Franklin just had kind of a desperado top and a bit of a greasy ponytail in the back. The ponytail was the height of fashion at the time. But here's the thing. Oh, and again, that profile, you, you probably know it well from those dollar bills you were lasting. That's not a profile in dollar bill. It's a profile on the quarter. But on the dollar bill it's a.

[Christopher Haciotes]

It's like it's a three quarter kind of lockdown. And then you know, you've got your creepy pyramid eye. But that's a whole nother thing.

[Noel]

Oh, we did a whole episode on that. On our other show stuff they don't want, you know, and actually took it on the road. So we know the creepy pyramid eye. Well, the eye of Horus I believe. Right, Ben?

[Ben]

That's one interpretation.

[Noel]

That's right.

[Ben]

That's true.

[Noel]

Listen to the show to find out more. But no, it turns out that that weird peruke looking do that Washington was sporting was not in fact a wig. Those were his natural hairs and he went to great lengths to coif them as such.

[Christopher Haciotes]

His hair grew like that?

[Noel]

His hair? Well, no, it didn't grow like that. That would be nice.

[Ben]

He put the work in.

[Noel]

He had quite a regimen. Came to his keeping up his appearances. So let me, let me run through some of them real quick. That his hair actually was more of kind of a reddish brown. And here's the thing too, about that particular hairdo at the time, it was a really big deal. People like to show as much forehead as possible. That was like a sign of strength or something.

[Ben]

Intelligence or something.

[Noel]

Yeah, Intelligence. You had like, you know, big, big, broad forehead. So in order to do that, the reason they bound their hair back in those ponytails was because it literally pulled, you know, tightened it up and pulled the, the brow up so you'd have more brow on display.

[Christopher Haciotes]

And they had to think of what they would have thought of the Klingons.

[Noel]

Exactly.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Those guys would have been kings or.

[Noel]

You know, else they would have loved facelifts. Can you imagine?

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah.

[Noel]

Founding father facelifts. That's a reality show waiting to happen, right there. At least a spoof reality.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Sounds like a weird website too. Founding Fathersfacelifts.com and hard to say, 10.

[Ben]

Times fast, but his, his hair was quite in fashion. It was kind of a tough hairdo, right?

[Noel]

Very much so, yeah. And it wasn't a wig, but he powdered it in the same way that these perukes would be powdered. But there's the crazy part about it. In order to do this, you know, this stuff, it would be a couple of different potential types of powder. Could be anything from talcum powder to other kind of crushed up earth minerals that were a little more expensive. Which is more likely what he would have used.

[Ben]

Would they have done chalk, you think?

[Noel]

Chalk is another possibility.

[Christopher Haciotes]

They used like the bones of the British.

[Noel]

That would be cool. I have nothing to confirm or deny that. Possibly asbestos. Yeah. But here's the thing. When he was doing it, in order to keep it from, you know, going up his quite sizable schnoz and, you know, down his throat, he wore like a weird cone on his face, like a rolled up paper cone that he would hold over his face while applying this powder. And he applied the powder.

[Ben]

Oh.

[Noel]

Plaster of Paris was another option.

[Christopher Haciotes]

What happened if it rained?

[Noel]

Oh, man, there's so much. Many questions. We're going to get to that. So in order to apply this stuff, he would use almost like a makeup brush made of silk strips that were bound together in a bunch. So he would dip this into the powder and then just douse himself with it, you know, and when his face would be covered up and he'd also be wearing something called a powder robe, and that would keep it off of his clothes.

[Christopher Haciotes]

I feel like you need a whole powder room.

[Ben]

Huh?

[Christopher Haciotes]

Huh?

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Well, because I mean, otherwise, Christopher Hoskinson. Otherwise you're gonna get the powder everywhere. And I guess that is a thing.

[Noel]

So you're thinking of a powder room. More like Dexter's kill room. It's just covered in plastic.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Whoa.

[Ben]

Whoa. Those are powder rumors by Fred.

[Noel]

Oh, man. We're on a roll here.

[Christopher Haciotes]

But what a mess, right?

[Noel]

An absolute mess. You know, you're totally right, my friend. Because even though he was wearing his powder robe, what was to keep this powder from just dusting every surface, you know, in the vicinity.

[Christopher Haciotes]

And he's wearing this weird sort of. It looks almost like a plague mask thing to cover his face.

[Noel]

Exactly. It's a very odd situation to walk in on. And he's doing it to himself, presumably. That's everything I've read. Says this was his morning routine. So he would powder the hell out of his hair that was already dolled up in this dew. And then he would curl the sides up into these kind of winglets, these little, like little. Kind of. They'd stick out like little ridges, little shelves on the side. In order to do that, he'd use pomade. You know, get it all nice and greasy and it would hold its shape. So, yeah, he got his hair so saturated with this powder that it didn't look like it was just kind of dusted. I mean, it was just white as the driven snow.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Wow.

[Noel]

Here's the thing, too. This is a question that was raised in this fantastic article that had really great accompanying illustrations by Wendy McNaughton for National Geographic that has these really great cartoons showing him what it must have looked like for him to be doing this. I cannot recommend this highly enough. It's called George Washington's oh so Mysterious Hair.

[Christopher Haciotes]

No. Will you. Will you post that on the Ridiculous Historian's Facebook page?

[Ben]

Right under the carbuncles. That's a callback.

[Noel]

It's a no car.

[Ben]

That's a callback.

[Noel]

And that is going to remain a carbuncle free zone if I have anything to do with it, Ben. But here's the thing. A question that she raises in this article is, well, how the hell did he keep this off his clothes? In all of these portraits of him, he looks so pristine. And you would think that this stuff would just be flaking off everywhere.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Flaking off. I mean, you're wearing these tight clothes made of wool in the American south, are you not? I would be sweating buckets and just have white powder dripping down my face.

[Noel]

Wouldn't it just be dripping down? Yeah, it does seem like it would be very gross. And there is one portrait by Adolf Ulrich Wurtmuller, who depicts him with some kind of little dandruffy flakes on one show, on one lapel.

[Ben]

I like that. Real humanity.

[Noel]

Touch of humanity. So there you go. He had a weird hair routine.

[Christopher Haciotes]

So. And the Lesson is that portraits are not always an accurate representation of what someone might really look like.

[Noel]

Well, that's true. And at the end of the day, I mean, you're sort of beholden to the person that's paying you to paint their portrait.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Listeners, please do not run into the National Portrait Gallery and throw a little flecks of white paint on anything that you think would be more historically accurate.

[Ben]

And there we have it. George Washington, first President of the United States, whiskey tycoon, dabbler in hemp, freemason extraordinaire, slave owner, and a man with very, very strict priorities regarding his hair.

[Noel]

It's very true.

[Christopher Haciotes]

No middle name.

[Noel]

No middle name. What else? What were some of the little trivia bits from the top?

[Christopher Haciotes]

Well, he's got his terrific title in the military. That he will forever and always be.

[Ben]

Supreme Commander General of the armies of the United States.

[Noel]

Did you mention the carbuncles that he's crusted with?

[Christopher Haciotes]

The crusty sickly man?

[Ben]

They're not clear on how inundated he was with carbuncles. We can only hope that it wasn't.

[Noel]

If these Google images have anything to say about it. It was a real nightmare.

[Christopher Haciotes]

I gotta say, Ben, you mentioned him as one of the sickliest presidents and listed out a litany of maladies he'd been inflicted with. But if he survived all those things, I'd say he's pretty strong. And maybe we should wrap up by talking about the somewhat ridiculous way in which he died. He did have all these maladies, but in 1799, back in December, what historians think really killed him is a doctor.

[Noel]

Medical malpractice.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Yeah, a doctor who basically overbled him. Drained him too much.

[Noel]

Well, and we already know that bloodletting.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Was a very stupid remedy and he was too bloodlet.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. We have the specifics here too. It was a guy named Albin Rawlins who all in all, after four rounds of bloodletting removed something like five pints of blood from the president.

[Christopher Haciotes]

That Dr. Albin.

[Ben]

I know, I know. I'm glad that bloodletting is not a common practice in medical centers today.

[Noel]

Do you think he got in trouble?

[Ben]

I don't know. It's a good question because I think there have been some other presidents who died as a result of well intentioned medical intervention.

[Noel]

Well, that's why they call it practicing medicine.

[Ben]

That's why they call it practicing medicine. Indeed. And on that note, we hope you enjoyed our two part series on weird George Washington facts. Which does count technically, until we do another one as our Washington episode in a bizarre series of circumstances. Christopher, thank you so much for dropping by. It is always an immense pleasure.

[Christopher Haciotes]

I'm happy to count myself among the two of you. As practicing podcasters, we do our best.

[Noel]

To keep our podcasting chops sharp.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Well practiced.

[Noel]

Thank you, sir.

[Ben]

And thank you to our super producer, Casey Pegram. Thank you to Alex Williams, who composed our track.

[Noel]

Thank you to Gabe, our delightful research associate. And of course, thank you to our wonderful guests, Christopher Haciotes and dear friend, for, as always, lighting up the room, sparking up our lives, giving Ben his groove back after you took it away.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Truly, truly, truly, this is something that sparks joy.

[Ben]

Oh boy. Well, if you want to continue the conversation, if you want to check out some of the things that we have mentioned other than carbuncles, you can visit us on the Internet. We're on Instagram. We're on Facebook. We're on Twitter. That's the other one. You can find our favorite part of the show, your fellow ridiculous historians, on our Facebook community page. Ridiculous Historic. If you want to see some pictures of very strange misadventures, I will be having shortly, follow me on Instagram.

[Noel]

I'm Enbolan and I am Brionicinsider.

[Christopher Haciotes]

Find me over at Haasiotis H A S S I O T I S.

[Noel]

And Christopher will be having some incredible adventures in podcasting coming down the pikes in the near future.

[Christopher Haciotes]

I will keep you all super updated.

[Noel]

Please do. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Ben]

Hey AudioBook lovers, I'm Kal Penn. I'm Ed Helms. Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from Audible. Listen to earsay on America's number one podcast network, iheart Followersay and start listening on the free iheartradio app today.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Flu season is here and the in store pharmacy has you covered with a free flu shot with most insurance plans. And as a thank you, get up to $20 off your grocery purchase. Plus it's cough and cold season. Stock up on all the season's essentials and get ready for relief with discounts on items like Hall's Menthol cough drops, Tylenol Cold and Flu and Mucinex Fast Max products. Offer ends December 30th. Restrictions apply and offers may vary by loc. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.

[Ben]

Ten athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points. You are the fittest of the fit. Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract for $250,000.

[Christopher Haciotes]

This is where mindset comes in.

[Ben]

Someone will be eliminated. Pressure is coming down. Trainer Games on Prime Video January 8th.

[Noel]

Watch the trailer on trainergames.com did you know? Microsoft has officially ended Support for Windows 10? Upgrade to Windows 11 with an LG Gram laptop, voted PC Mag's Reader's Choice.

[Ben]

Top laptop brand for 2025.

[Noel]

Thin and ultra lightweight, the LG Gram keeps you productive anywhere, and Windows 11 gives you access to free security updates, updates and ongoing feature upgrades. Visit lgusa.com iheart for great seasonal savings on LG Gram laptops with Windows 11. PCMag reader's choice used with permission. All rights reserved.

[Ben]

Season 2 of unrivaled basketball is here, and the talent is unreal. Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more are back to redefine the game. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5th on TNT.

[Christopher Haciotes]

TruTV and HBO Max.

[Ben]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.