CLASSIC: Who are the Hartlepudlian Monkey Hangers?

Summary

Ridiculous History: Classic Episode Summary – "Who are the Hartlepudlian Monkey Hangers?"

Released on May 27, 2025 by iHeartPodcasts

In this classic episode of Ridiculous History, hosts Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown delve into one of England’s most bizarre legends: the tale of the Hartlepudlian Monkey Hangers. Set against the tumultuous backdrop of the Napoleonic Wars, the episode unpacks the origins, evolution, and enduring legacy of this peculiar story.

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1. Setting the Scene: Napoleonic Wars and Hartlepool (00:00 – 02:48)

Ben and Noel kick off the episode by anchoring listeners in the late 18th to early 19th century, a period marked by the Napoleonic Wars (1803–1815). They discuss Napoleon Bonaparte’s ambition to dominate Europe, which instilled widespread fear across British shores. This geopolitical tension sets the stage for the chilling events that would supposedly unfold in Hartlepool, a coastal town in Northeastern England.

Ben (00:51): “Today we are talking about monkeys from Hartlepool.”

2. The Legend Unfolds: Arrival of the Monkey (11:31 – 15:22)

The heart of the episode revolves around the legend that during a tumultuous shipwreck near Hartlepool, the only survivor was a monkey, believed by the superstitious townsfolk to be a French spy. This belief stemmed from the monkey’s panicked behavior and gibbering, which the villagers misconstrued as a foreign language due to their fear of French invasion.

Noel (11:38): “They seized this poor traumatized monkey who has skirted death once already.”

3. The Trial and Execution (15:00 – 17:22)

Driven by paranoia and fueled by political satire depicting Frenchmen as monkey-like creatures, the Hartlepudlians allegedly put the monkey on trial. Unable to communicate, the monkey was condemned and hanged in the town square, an act that has since become a cornerstone of Hartlepool’s dark folklore.

Ben (14:43): “They separated this poor traumatized monkey, he just keeps speaking French at me.”

4. Investigating the Credibility: Alternate Theories and Evidence (16:20 – 38:57)

Ben and Noel critically examine the legend’s authenticity. They explore historic records, noting that Hartlepool Bay was notorious for shipwrecks, with 14 ships sinking in the area during the relevant period. However, they highlight the absence of concrete evidence supporting the monkey’s existence or the execution event.

An intriguing twist arises from historian Ben Johnson’s account, suggesting that the “hanged monkey” might have been a young boy employed on the warship as a powder monkey, essential for handling gunpowder. This theory introduces the possibility of the story being a war-time miscommunication or an embellishment of true events over time.

Noel (25:08): “There was a divide there... West Hartlepool were more intelligent than those who lived in the old... part of the town.”

5. The Role of Folklore and Music in Shaping the Legend (26:29 – 31:37)

The episode delves into how oral history and music have perpetuated the Hartlepool monkey hanging story. They discuss a satirical song by Victorian performer Edward 'Ned' Corvin, which likely amplified the narrative, intertwining it with earlier songs about baboons and local legends. This musical retelling helped entrench the story into local culture, making it a symbol of Hartlepool’s unique identity.

Ben (27:08): “Ned... wrote a satirical song... which he performed in the town.”

6. Cultural Impact and Modern Legacy (24:01 – 26:29)

Ben and Noel explore how the legend has been embraced by Hartlepool’s residents, transforming from a term of derision into one of cultural pride. They highlight Stuart Drummond, a mayoral candidate who famously campaigned as the town’s official monkey mascot, embodying the spirit of the legend and promoting it as a unique aspect of Hartlepool’s heritage.

Noel (24:46): “Hartlepudlians are often described as monkey hangers.”

7. Scientific Scrutiny and Debunking Efforts (37:34 – 38:35)

The hosts discuss attempts to find archaeological evidence supporting the legend. In 2005, a bone was discovered on Hartlepool’s beach, initially thought to be from a monkey but later identified as belonging to a prehistoric deer, effectively debunking the myth with scientific evidence.

Ben (37:55): “Ancient bone not from monkey spy. Hopes of unraveling the mystery... have been scuppered by science.”

8. Hosts’ Perspectives and Listener Engagement (39:01 – 43:59)

Ben and Noel share their personal skepticism about the story’s veracity, viewing it as a tall tale rather than historical fact. They invite listeners to engage by sharing their own historical anecdotes and food fail stories, fostering a community of history enthusiasts who appreciate the blend of fact and folklore.

Noel (39:44): “For me to be able to laugh at it and derive enjoyment from it, I have to think of it as a tall tale.”

9. Conclusion: Embracing the Ridiculous (44:11 – 45:55)

Wrapping up, the hosts reflect on how legends like the Hartlepool monkey hanging persist in collective memory despite lacking concrete evidence. They celebrate the story's role in local identity and its ability to spark curiosity and debate among historians and enthusiasts alike.

Ben (38:56): “What do you believe? What do you choose to believe, folks?”

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ben (02:48): “This is also the tale of one incredibly unlucky little monkey man.”

• Noel (11:39): “No human survivors to this wreck.”

• Ben (15:09): “The monkey was not able to defend itself or provide satisfactory answers to the townspeople's questions.”

• Noel (24:46): “Hartlepudlians are often described as monkey hangers.”

• Ben (37:55): “Ancient bone not from monkey spy.”

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Final Thoughts

"Who are the Hartlepudlian Monkey Hangers?" is a compelling exploration of how fear, folklore, and cultural storytelling intertwine to create enduring legends. Ben and Noel adeptly navigate through historical facts, mythical embellishments, and modern interpretations, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of this peculiar episode in Hartlepool’s history.

For those intrigued by the intersection of history and myth, this episode serves as a fascinating case study on how communities construct and perpetuate their unique narratives.

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Join Ben and Noel on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows, and dive into more outrageous tales with Ridiculous History.

Transcript

[Ben]

Fellow ridiculous historians, we are going abroad in this week's classic episode to Northeastern England. I'm Ben, your Noel, and right before we re listened to this episode and recorded this, you and I were looking back at our notes and we immediately said, oh, man. And you said, that's a word.

[Noel]

I did say that's a word. Folks from Hartpool in Northeastern England are apparently referred to as Hartapudlians, much like people from Liverpool are referred to as Liverpudlians, much like people from Lilliput are referred to as Lilliputians. Ben, have you seen the new sort of horror comedy the Monkey?

[Ben]

I have, yes.

[Noel]

It was fine. It was a bit Final Destination coded, let's just say.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noel]

Actually, you know what? I'm gonna go on a limb and say it wasn't very good.

[Ben]

I was not. You know, it's making.

[Noel]

You weren't plussed?

[Ben]

Yeah, sure I was. I was. Cause, you know, I'm kind of like a Larry David character. So about 15 minutes in. I give every film at least 10. 15 minutes. 15 minutes in. I thought, man, I'm not gonna get a refund on this.

[Noel]

I bought it on Amazon, so I paid the price. I honestly, Ben didn't finish it. But that's neither here nor there, y' all. We're not a movie criticism podcast, though we do critique things from time to time. Today we are talking about monkeys from Hartlepool.

[Ben]

Hartlepool, yes.

[Noel]

Hartlepoolian monkeys. Hangers, even.

[Ben]

Yeah. If you wanted to have fighting words with some people in this part of northeastern England, all you would have to do is walk into the local. Or the local pub, I guess we should say, and start calling people monkey hangers. And this goes back to the Napoleonic War. The classic war, yes, actually, for tacticians and students of war colleges, which I'm sure, sure are a huge demographic for us, along with hungover substitute teachers. The Napoleonic War. Thank you for the shrug there, Max. The facts are the facts.

[Noel]

Do they have war summer camps?

[Ben]

Yeah. Oh, man. That is actually a great idea for another episode in the future. Noel, we are sharing a story that I think made us both feel kind of bad, because I'm a huge fan of pretty much every animal other than the Honda Odyssey and the Wild Honda Odyssey. I don't rank it as a reputable vehicle, but this is also the tale of one incredibly unlucky little monkey man.

[Noel]

Aw, the unlucky little monkey. That's right. And how the Napoleonic War. A terrified village and said unlucky Simeon collided in a ridiculous historical explosion for the ages. You're listening to an iHeart podcast.

[Ben]

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[Noel]

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Amy Robach]

Amy Robach and T.J. holmes here, Diddy's former protege, television personality Danity King alum Aubrey O' Day joins us to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation.

[T.J. Holmes]

It wasn't all bad, but I don't know that any of the good was real. I went through things there.

[Amy Robach]

Listen to Amy and TJ presents Aubrey O' Day covering the Diddy trial on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartrad. Welcome to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. My name is Ben.

[Noel]

You usually do something. You usually do a bit at the beginning of the show. You threw me for a loop there, Ben.

[Ben]

Do you want a bit? We can go back.

[Noel]

I think I need a bit.

[Ben]

I can go back.

[Noel]

I need a bit.

[Ben]

Okay, guys, journey with us back to the beginning. Wait, should we keep this all on mic?

[Noel]

Yeah, of course.

[Ben]

Let's do that. Yeah.

[Noel]

We need to fill time.

[Ben]

All right, so there's our super producer, Casey Pegram, everybody. Give him a hand, you guys.

[Noel]

We are flying blind today.

[Ben]

We are. Here's. Instead of a bit, let's do a bit of background.

[Noel]

How about that, Ben? That's smart. That's a smart use of the word bit.

[Ben]

So everyone knows where we're coming from, right, Noel?

[Noel]

Well, that's very important. Setting up the scene is very important. So today's scene starts in. Well, in France and Europe in general, I guess in the late 1700s. Because you see in 1799, Napoleon Bonaparte, remember the guy that got swarmed by cute little bunnies, he overthrew the French revolutionary government. Right, yes.

[Ben]

And this triggered what is known as the Napoleonic Wars. Yeah.

[Noel]

Because he had designs on conquering, like, everything.

[Ben]

Yeah, he had. He was like a more successful William Walker, who you'll recall from previous episodes, the Napoleonic wars occurred between 1803 and 1815. And this was the French Empire led by Napoleon against just a mixtape of various European powers voltroning together, usually led by the United Kingdom. That was the ringleader.

[Noel]

And just for a little bit of a quick bookkeeping, it was in 1802 that there was a thing called the Peace of Armenians that ended a decade of war between Great Britain and France.

[Ben]

Right, right. So things were not particularly stable to begin with when the wars began in 1803. And before we go on, this is gonna be a punchy episode, folks. I think that's the word you used, Noel, because when I said a bit of background, I was also talking on a meta level about our situation today. We are, Noel, Casey and I are in the studio for this episode, and then we're going to be here into the night making an appearance on a favorite show of ours, behind the Bastards. Should go ahead and plug that and assume that we survive this recording session.

[Noel]

Yeah. We'll see. It's. We're going to be some punchy characters by the time that's all said and done. But, yeah, our buddy Robert Evans asked us to be on the show, and we thought he was joking when he said, yeah, you know, just be about three or four hours. We're like, okay, we're, you know, we're game. But I'll tell you who else was game was Napoleon. For some conquerings.

[Ben]

Yes. No. Why don't you walk us through a few of these conflicts, because this context is very important to today's story.

[Noel]

Well, the US Was actually involved a little bit as well. Napoleon got back Louisiana from Spain in 1800, and then he made a brash attempt to overthrow a revolution in Haiti, but it did not succeed. And so having Louisiana was not a valuable thing without the strategic stronghold of Haiti. So he decided to give it back to the US in the Louisiana Purchase of 1803 before Great Britain could invade it.

[Ben]

Yes. And in addition to this, the British forces were increasingly creeped out, irritated, angered, upset, and eventually frightened by Napoleon's actions in Europe. Right. With Switzerland, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands. And they were also concerned that, as you said, that Napoleon might not stop at Haiti. He might become a threat to Britain's overseas colonies.

[Noel]

That's right, because the. The British had the Royal Navy, and they were doing quite a good job of defending their shores. And French invasion attempts had not gone so well. But the tide kind of turned when there were some big successes by the French military and the power of the British Navy started to wane a little bit, and they really needed to kind of bolster that up. So there was a lot of paranoia. There would be a direct invasion by sea of British territories. And that is where our story truly begins, with this paranoia and this concept of. The French are coming.

[Ben]

Yes, the French are coming. There was a nationwide fear that some historians describe as an irrational anxiety about Napoleon's motives and. And intentions. They were especially spooked when Napoleon asserted control over Switzerland. They thought the French. The British, they just thought the French could be coming at any given moment. And one day, according to the story, or a legend, or at the very least alleged story, a French ship actually did land in England, but it wrecked. It wrecked by an old fishing village named Hartlepool.

[Noel]

Yeah, it was, like, right there on the beach. And supposedly the Hartlepoodlians.

[Ben]

Hartlepoodlans.

[Noel]

Hartlepoodlians Came running. And there were supposedly no survivors to this wreck.

[Ben]

No humans?

[Noel]

No. Well. Oh, Ben, come on. Come now. No. Human survivors to this wreck. But there was a little hairy guy who was, in fact or in fiction, a monkey.

[Ben]

Yes. The only survivor of the wreck there on the northeastern coast of England was a very panicked and traumatized little monkey who washed ashore, miraculously survived. Keep in mind, everybody else on the ship drowned.

[Noel]

Right.

[Ben]

And the Hartlepudlians had never seen a primate like this before?

[Noel]

That is what they say. And according to a source from historicuk.com the monkey was possibly dressed in a tiny military uniform.

[Ben]

See, that's interesting and I appreciate that you say possibly, because, again, there are things about this story I think you can tell by the way we're carefully hedging some of these statements. There are things about this story that can't really be proven, but we do know internally the logic jibes because the monkey's supposed to be a mascot of the ship, right?

[Noel]

Yeah, but this is the thing, though, Ben. I mean, do all ships have mascots? That's not something I'd ever heard of before.

[Ben]

Surely not.

[Noel]

You carry around, like a signature animal, like a familiar.

[Ben]

No, some military groups have done that.

[Noel]

Yeah, but I guess so, like an actual living cre. Well, I guess like a football team, like having, like, the UGA bulldog or whatever, you know, I guess when I think of a mascot, I think of somebody wearing a. You know, a big furry.

[Ben]

Basically.

[Noel]

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. So this supposed primate, supposedly dressed in a tiny military uniform, was panicked, as one could imagine, and gibbering mindlessly, as monkeys do. And according to the tale, the Hartlepoodlians interpreted this gibbering as. As a foreign language, possibly French.

[Ben]

Now, let's pause there for a second. Casey, could you do us a massive favor and play this sou of a monkey chattering? Because we all know a little bit about French enough to know what it sounds like, roughly. So clearly not French.

[Noel]

Well, I mean, if you don't know French, who's to say?

[Ben]

Who's to say? And that is the crux of the story, Noel, because the people of this town, the Hartlepudlians, had an awareness of the nation of France and the threat that it posed geopolitically. But not a person in the village had ever seen a French person.

[Noel]

And to make matters worse, apparently a lot of political satire cartoons of the day depicted Frenchmen as hairy, monkey like creatures with tails and subhumans. Exactly. Because they were the enemy. I mean, it was sort of like the, you know, the Red Scare type stuff. I mean, this guy is, like, gunning for their lands. Right? So, yeah. So what do they do? They do like any God fearing, French fearing person would do.

[Ben]

They panic.

[Noel]

They panic.

[Ben]

They absolutely panic.

[Noel]

Freak out, they bug out.

[Ben]

And according to the story, they seize again, this poor traumatized monkey who has skirted death once already. So they panic. It's exactly what they do. And they say, we have to do something about this Frenchman.

[Noel]

Yeah. But thankfully they had. Their wits were about them. They didn't let justice go unserved, Ben. They. They decided to put this monkey on trial.

[Ben]

Unfortunately, due to the language barrier.

[Noel]

Yes.

[Ben]

The monkey was not able to defend itself or provide satisfactory answers to the townspeople's questions.

[Noel]

That's right. Because the thing is, Ben, they didn't just think the monkey was. It was a Frenchman. They thought the monkey was a French spy. And I've yet to find a detail that that justifies why exactly that was.

[Ben]

But those are the questions they were asking him a lot of. Are you a spy, man? Right. I said, are you a spy, man? He just keeps speaking French at me.

[Noel]

I know, I know. So, yeah, so they. They sentenced the monkey to death, according to the tale.

[Ben]

Mm. Yeah. You can read different accounts of this, but sources that cleave to the story or the anecdote say that the townsfolk literally dragged this monkey into the town square and then they hanged him and he died. But this is where we get a couple of different, I don't know, interpretations and questions about credibility because there's a darker side to the tale that we found in historic uk.com. you saw this one.

[Noel]

I know the one you're talking about. Go on, Ben.

[Ben]

The Hanging of the Hartlepool Monkey by Ben Johnson. The dark turn is this. Maybe the villagers didn't actually hang a monkey, but instead a small boy, a child who was employed on the warship. Because at this time there were boys who were hired on and worked on these ships to prime the cannons with gunpowder. Yeah.

[Noel]

With the very convenient name of powder monkeys.

[Ben]

Right. So is this a game of telephone throughout history with a misinterpretation occurring as people tell the story over and over again?

[Noel]

Yeah, it's true. These are all very important questions that we probably won't have an actual satisfactory answer to. Spoiler alert. But it's because no one was there. And it was. You know, a lot of ships went down around that time because, like I said, the naval exploits of Napoleon weren't all always that successful.

[Ben]

Right. And according to historic England's records of 38,000 shipwrecks around the coast of Britain, 14 ships sank in the Hartlepool Bay Area around that time. So there it was not incredibly uncommon for shipwrecks to occur.

[Andrea Gunning]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. May is Mental Health Awareness Month and Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, is telling everyone let's face it in therapy, by talking or texting with a supportive licensed therapist at Talkspace, you can face whatever is holding you back, whether it's mental health symptoms, relationship drama, past trauma, bad habits or another challenge that you need support to work through. It's easy to sign up. Just go to talkspace.com and you'll be paired with a provider, typically within 48 hours. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule. Plus, Talkspace is in network with most major insurers and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. Make your mental health a priority and start today. If you're not covered by Insurance, get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80. That's S P A CE80 to match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com and Enter promo code SPACE80.

[Amy Robach]

Amy Robach and TJ Holmes here, Diddy's former protege, television personality platinum selling artist Danity King alumni Aubrey o' Day joins us to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation.

[Aubrey O'Day]

Aubrey o' Day is sitting next to us. Here you are. As we sit here right up the street from where the trial is taking place. Some people saw that you were going to be in New York and they immediately started jumping to conclusions. So can you clear that up? First of all, are you here to testify in the Diddy trial? Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise based on her first hand knowledge from her days on making the band. As she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be opposite of the glitz and glamour.

[T.J. Holmes]

It wasn't all bad, but I don't know that any of the good was real. I went through things there.

[Amy Robach]

Listen to Amy and TJ presents Aubrey O' Day covering the Diddy trial on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your page. Podcasts.

[T.J. Holmes]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline.

[Ben]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[T.J. Holmes]

Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.

[Noel]

She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing. No.

[T.J. Holmes]

How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?

[Noel]

You're unable to keep track of all your lies, and quite frankly, I question how many other women may bring forward allegations in the future.

[T.J. Holmes]

This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception, Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

She was a decorated veteran, a Marine who saved her comrades, a hero.

[Amy Robach]

She was stoic, modest, tough, someone who inspired people.

[Noel]

Everyone thought they knew her until they didn't.

[Amy Robach]

I remember sitting on her couch and asking her, is this real? Is this real? Is this real? Is this real?

[Ben]

I just couldn't wrap my head around what kind of person would do that to another person that was getting treatment.

[Noel]

That was, you know, dying.

[Ben]

This is a story all about trust and about a woman named Sarah Kavanaugh. I've always been told I'm a really good listener. Right. And I maximized that while I was lying. Listen to Deep Cover, the Truth about Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So that's. I think we can agree that's more or less the gist of the legend, correct?

[Noel]

Correct. But that's not the gist of the episode. I mean, we wouldn't just stop short there. There's gotta be more, Ben. There's gotta be more. Please give us more.

[Ben]

There has to be more. You're right, because, you see, this is where the credibility of the tale comes into question. So you could say maybe something like this happened and it got embellished over time. Right. But the problem is this tale is attributed to more than one place. There's a remarkably similar tale from 1772 that centers on Bodum near Peterhead in Aberdeenshire. I love British town names.

[Noel]

There's an even better one. Ben, I believe that's a Welsh town. Or. No, I'm sorry. A Cornish town. Right.

[Ben]

Yes. Yeah.

[Noel]

I'll give this one a go, my friend.

[Ben]

Mevagissi. Okay, Mevigissi.

[Noel]

That's good. Yeah. Come on, Cornish folk. Write us. Write us in.

[Ben]

Tell us.

[Noel]

Tell us how.

[Ben]

Give it a shot.

[Noel]

I would have done the same. Yeah, no, I'm with you on that.

[Ben]

So in both of these cases, villagers supposedly find a monkey.

[Noel]

Yeah. And in one of them, I believe it was the last survivor of the shipwreck and so they killed it so that they could have claim on the cargo. Isn't that the deal with some kind of technicality?

[Ben]

Salvage law? Yeah. Aberdeenshire.

[Noel]

That's brutal.

[Ben]

The monkey was human enough, I guess. What would it have done? Would it have become the new captain of the wrecked ship?

[Noel]

Would it have made a claim? And then the other one. I believe the monkey was an organ grinder monkey. It wasn't the same. It was a slightly different situation.

[Ben]

Bit a kid.

[Noel]

Uh huh.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Noel]

That monkey had it coming.

[Ben]

That still happens when animals attack people.

[Noel]

You ever seen that show, When Animals attack People?

[Ben]

I've. I've seen when animals attack, yes.

[Noel]

But my favorite one is the, the one where it's specifically they attack people.

[Ben]

I, you know what I'm, I'm fond of animals attacking cars. That's a thing.

[Noel]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Have you ever seen those videos of like. First off, if you have never been around a monkey. Some of those monkeys are brutal. They are not playing.

[Noel]

No.

[Ben]

And they will break into your car.

[Noel]

Don't they eat their young too? Did I make that up?

[Ben]

I don't know.

[Noel]

Nevermind. Let us know right in.

[Ben]

Let us know if that's just a primate stereotype that we've seen spread. Or we could just check it now. Right, so those are two points against the veracity of the story. That one thing very similar is attributed to a completely different, different town. And there are other points that stick with it. A lot of people who say that it definitely happened there in Hartlepool are supportive of it as a being a part of local culture.

[Noel]

Yeah, no, it's totally like part of their heritage. Because it's weird. It's like on the one hand it seems like a term of abuse, but on the other hand some people look at it as a term of pride. Hartlepoodlians are often described as monkey hangers.

[Ben]

Yeah. And for centuries after the legend spread, references to monkey hanging were used to mock the residents, the Hartlepudlians. And apparently at football matches today between local rivals, they have this chant, who hung the monkey? Which I would have loved to hear out of context.

[Noel]

There's also a quote in this BBC article called Was a monkey really hanged in Hartlepool? From a historian by the name of Keith Gregson, who mentions the fact that there was sort of a divide between the town because of a newly industrialized area. I believe so. There was a sense that the folks that lived in this new industrialized part of the town called West Hartlepool were more intelligent than those who lived in the old More antiquated, you know, old. Clinging on to the old ways part of the town. Who may have been the ones who hanged this monkey. So it was kind of a. There is a divide there.

[Ben]

And that's. The older part of the town is also where the fishing industry continued. Right.

[Noel]

So they would have been most likely to be hanging out by the waters.

[Ben]

Yeah. And as the years pass, the people of Hartlepool begin to embrace this story. As you had mentioned, Noel, as you alluded to earlier, it becomes a point of cultural pride or something that differentiates their town from other nearby towns. And people begin to fall in love with it. It becomes the subject of books. There's even a graphic novel, I think there's a play. And there's even a song with a little bit of story behind it.

[Noel]

Yeah, let's hear that. Well, a lord mayor of Attlee Bull.

[Ben]

Was walking along the shore when he.

[Noel]

Seen this little hairy man he'd never.

[Ben]

Seen before Sitting in the sand was this hairy little man clutching a banana in his little hairy hand saying, Also not proven.

[Noel]

No, no, this.

[Ben]

This song. Spoiler. This song essentially does the entire story.

[Noel]

It really does. And it takes a good four and a half minutes to do it. So we'll go ahead and give it a nice little fade out right now. But the song is actually a big part of how this legend kind of came to be what it is today. Right, Ben?

[Ben]

Right. That's how it got popularized, or at.

[Noel]

Least the evolution of a. Not quite sure if it's this song. So I can't actually find any attribution for what this song is. And there's a set of lyrics that's a little different. That is a reference to a song that was first performed in 1855 by a performer from the area by the name of Mr. E. Corvin or Edward Ned Corvin, who was a Victorian performer who toured around the area known as the Tyneside. You ever heard of this, Ben?

[Ben]

Yeah, he was a Tyneside concert hall player, wrote songs and stuff. Tyneside is the banks of the River Tyne in Northeast England. So it's a region that includes a couple of places, a couple of different places that have great names. Newcastle Upon Tyne, Gateshead, Tynemouth, Wallsend, South Shields and Jarrow. Probably mispronounced a couple of those. But if you're listening and you're from that part of the world. Hey. Shout out to you Shout out to you.

[Noel]

I thought you were going to tell him to shut up.

[Ben]

No more. I want more. Tyneside. You know what's interesting about Ned, we can call him Ned because we're fans of his. Was that he was known for writing like a satirical song, a little bit of a light hearted roast for every town that he visited. So he would go visit a town and he would write a song about them while he was there and he would perform it in the town. So when Ned goes to Hartlepool, he writes a song about.

[Noel]

Yeah, he writes a song about the monkey hanging.

[Ben]

And this song becomes popular in the region. People love it. Eventually, from what I understand, Hartlepudlians themselves begin to be fans of the song.

[Noel]

Well, here's the thing. In this BBC article, they talk about how he was making references to a previous song that existed called the Baboon, which is written in 1825 or which was first heard around 1825. And it was a different story entirely about a baboon that visited the region with some Cossack soldiers.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Noel]

So I don't quite see the connection there.

[Ben]

But they both happen in Tyneside too.

[Noel]

But how did he know about the. He just made up the Napoleonic. Is that what's being implied here, Ben? That he just made this thing up wholesale?

[Ben]

What it seems they're implying is that this was a remix or a reworked version of the song and that he took elements from the baboon and used them in his song about the Hartlepudlian monkey hangers.

[Noel]

But at that point, was this already a legend? That's my question. Is the legend coming from the song? Like, where's the seed of truth here? Because there are people that still. We're talking about in a second that still hang on to the fact that the idea that this could well have happened because it's such a bizarre story. But that logic always eludes me when you say it's so crazy, it must be true.

[Ben]

Well, also, those folks, as we'll find, have skin in the game. Right. The main people who believe it are themselves Hartlepudlians. It feels like Corvin heard the story, the French monkey story. Right. And then mixed with it aspects of the story about the baboon, also from Tyneside, and then added a dash of his own stuff.

[Noel]

Oh, here we go.

[Ben]

And then set the whole thing in Hartlepool.

[Noel]

Yeah, okay, that makes sense. And here we go. We also have something from this BBC article that says the original song had some phrases in it that he reused, like Harry French spy and Napoleon's uncle. And I wish I could find the lyrics to the Baboon, but there's another set of Lyrics called the Monkey Song. That's not the same as when we played. There's a lot of these songs floating around. But it goes. In former times when war and strife, the French invasion threatened life and all was armed to the knife the fisherman hung the monkey. Oh, the fisherman with courage high Seized on the monkey for a French spy. Hang him, says one, he's to die. They did and they hung the monkey. Oh, but it's like it's got that same sing, songy, folky quality that the song we played has. In the original song. This one we played, he goes, they think he's a spy, so we'll hang him in the square. And this one's just a little bit different. The fishermen were courage high Seized on the monkey for a French spy. Hang him, says one, he's to die. They did and they hung the monkey. Oh, so I don't know, man. Like, is it song that's like making this legend a thing, or is it oral history?

[Ben]

It's oral history first and then the song, which is borrowing from other songs.

[Noel]

I got it.

[Ben]

Okay, so it's still. And because it's a song, it's still oral history.

[Noel]

It's true. That's a good point, Ben.

[Andrea Gunning]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. May is mental health awareness month, and Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, is telling everyone, let's face it, in therapy, by talking or texting with a supportive licensed therapist at Talkspace, you can face whatever is holding you back, whether it's mental health symptoms, relationship drama, past trauma, bad habits, or another challenge that you need support to work through. It's easy to sign up. Just go to talkspace.com and you'll be paired with a provider, typically within 48 hours. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule. Plus, Talkspace is in network with most major insurers and most insured members have a $0 copay. Make your mental health a priority and start today. If you're not covered by Insurance, get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80. That's S P A CE80. To match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com and Enter promo code SPACE80.

[Amy Robach]

Amy Robach and TJ Holmes. Here, Diddy's former protege, television personality, platinum selling artist Danity King. Alum Aubrey o' Day joins us to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has Captivated the attention of the nation.

[Aubrey O'Day]

Aubrey o' Day is sitting next to us. Here you are. As we sit here, right up the street from where the trial is taking place. Some people saw that you were going to be in New York and they immediately started jumping to conclusions. So can you clear that up? First of all, are you here to testify in the Diddy tribe? Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise based on her first hand knowledge from her days on making the band. As she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be opposite of the glitz and glamour.

[T.J. Holmes]

It wasn't all bad, but I don't know that any of the good was real. I went through things there.

[Amy Robach]

Listen to Amy and TJ presents Aubrey O' Day covering the Diddy trial on the iHeartRadio radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[T.J. Holmes]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife, Caroline.

[Ben]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[T.J. Holmes]

Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.

[Noel]

She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing. No.

[T.J. Holmes]

How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?

[Noel]

You're unable to keep track of all your lies, and quite frankly, I question how many other women may bring forward allegations in the future.

[T.J. Holmes]

This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

She was a decorated veteran, a Marine who saved her comrades, a hero. She was stoic, modest, tough, someone who inspired people.

[Noel]

Everyone thought they knew her until they didn't.

[Ben]

I remember sitting on her couch and.

[Amy Robach]

Asking her, is this real? Is this real? Is this real? Is this real?

[Ben]

I just couldn't wrap my head around what kind of person would do that to another person that was getting treatment.

[Noel]

That was, you know, dying.

[Ben]

This is a story all about trust and about a woman named Sarah Kavanaugh. I've always been told I'm a really good listener, right? And I maximized that while I was lying. Listen to Deep Cover the Truth about Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's where we find disagreements. As we mentioned earlier, a lot of the people who wholeheartedly believe in this story or claim to are themselves Hartlepudlians. The successful mayoral candidate in the 2002 local elections is a guy named Stuart Drummond. He campaigned dressed in the costume of.

[Noel]

Oh, he wasn't just dressed in it, Ben. He was the official mascot of the Hartlepoodlian Football Club.

[Ben]

Right. And he campaigned for mayor dressed in that character.

[Noel]

But that was a. It was like a sort of a goof.

[Ben]

It was sort of a goof. But he maintains that it really did happen. But of course, you would maintain that it really did happen. He's running for mayor. He wants the town to be unique. It's great pr. And as. As we said, he was the mascot for a time.

[Noel]

Yeah. But he. But he also won. He did win and stayed mayor for. For, like, I think, 11 years. He was mayor. Three election victories. He succeeded. And. Yeah, and it just goes to. And he, you know, he main that nobody can say whether or not this happened or not, because nobody was there. And that's okay. That's one way of looking at it.

[Ben]

I saw a quote where he said that it definitely something happened. The problem is most of the people who disagree with him are professional historians, and even if they don't go so far as to say this never happened, they end up saying, we looked everywhere for proof of this, and we could find absolutely no proof. There was some excitement in 2005 when an animal bone was found buried on the beach. Despite the fact that in the story the monkeys hanged in the town square, people thought, well, this might be physical proof of a small primate washing ashore. Unfortunately, it was not a primate bone. It was the bone of a prehistoric deer.

[Noel]

That's right, a deer from somewhere in the neighborhood of 6,000 years ago, when herds of deer would have migrated across that part of the. And they were followed by tribes of hunters who wanted them for sustenance and for, you know, the byproducts, like their skin and their. And their antlers and stuff. And this is from a great article.

[Ben]

This is my headline. Pick of the.

[Noel]

Very, very pithy headline. Very good. Ancient bone not from monkey spy.

[Ben]

Mm. Hopes of unraveling the mystery of the legendary Hartlepool monkey, said to have been hanged as a Napoleonic spy, have been scuppered by science.

[Noel]

Scuppered.

[Ben]

Scuppered is a great word. We need to bring that back.

[Noel]

Like a scupper noggin.

[Ben]

What's a scuppernog?

[Noel]

It's like a type of grape, I think. Oh, yeah, yeah. Sort of like a Muscat.

[Ben]

Ah, okay. Muscat. I know, but say it again.

[Noel]

Scuppernog.

[Ben]

Scuppernog. That sounds so Tolkien esque.

[Noel]

Yeah, you can make wine out of it. And in fact, it is compared to a muscadine. It is a large variety of muscadine. Oh, there you go. A species of grape native to the southern United States. So right here in our backyard.

[Ben]

And at this point, it becomes somewhat of a matter of opinion. What do you feel better about believing? The main argument for proponents of the story is that it's not hurting anyone and there's no proof that it didn't happen, which is not a particularly strong position to take. Especially because on the other side of the coin, there's no proof that it did happen.

[Noel]

That's right.

[Ben]

So what do you believe? What do you choose to believe, folks?

[Noel]

We're putting it to the people.

[Ben]

Well, and to you as well, though.

[Noel]

Okay. Well, I don't know, man. I don't want to poo poo on anybody's monkey but parade or anything, but it feels to me like with the nature of the multiple monkey stories, some of the kind of, you know, mutating facts in the story and the different accounts in song, I feel like this is rife for having been a kind of a good gag poking fun at the intellect of the people of Hartlepool.

[Ben]

Yeah. Personally, I choose to believe it didn't happen because I don't like the idea of a town of people hanging a monkey.

[Noel]

I know, man. Come on, that's brutal.

[Ben]

For me to be able to laugh at it and derive enjoyment from it, I have to think of it as a tall tale.

[Noel]

There you go.

[Ben]

So this is the story. Oh, man, I can't wait for the flood of email from people who have strong opinions. We're gonna get a lot of Tyneside.

[Noel]

List people have strong opinions and they send emails.

[Ben]

It's a new thing.

[Noel]

It's insane.

[Ben]

You can be part of it. We'll give you the information at the end. But speaking of emails, enough about us, what about you? Did you see any good listener mails today, Noel?

[Noel]

As a matter of fact, I do, Ben. I did and I do still. This one? Yeah. This one comes from Mr. Venomous and it says Ben and Noel, Agents of Discord is what he's referring to, which I like. In all of history, my favorite historical figure is Emperor Norton. His story makes him a perfect candidate for ridiculous history. In 1848, he was bequeathed $40,000 from his father's estate. He tried making it as a businessman in San Francis, but made a bad investment in buying 100 tons of pure Peruvian rice. A prolonged core battle over the loss of his investment led him to go bankrupt in 1858. Penniless and discontent with the legal system and politics, he declared himself Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico in 1859. Let's just leave it there Ben, because I like this one and it almost sounds like it's something stuff you miss in history class our peer podcast may have done, but if not, we're going to snatch it up.

[Ben]

And Agents of Discord is a reference, I believe, to one of our other shows Mr. Venomous has written into us before on stuff they want you to know.

[Noel]

It does ring a bell.

[Ben]

Well, it's great to hear from you again, man. I agree with my trusty co host here. That is a fantastic idea for an episode if we're the first ones to get to the plate on it. We have one more email that's a little bit long from Adam S. He titled it Lots of topics. Sorry, I'm just going to read some of the greatest hits or the excerpts here. So Adam, you say hey guys, recently picked up the podcast so catching up and I'm nearly there. I love the show so far, but I do listen to the new episodes then go back to make my way through that golden backlog. Oh, I've never heard our backlog described as golden. He has some suggestions for food fails. Adam says you talked about food fails. Can I point a drink one your way? Here in the uk, Coca Cola released a water which I think you may still get in the US Dasani, they use the marketing as something like can't live without spunk. Here in the uk that's a slang word for something you really wouldn't want in your drink.

[Noel]

We say that over here plenty.

[Ben]

Yeah, I think that one made it across the pond. Adam says it got better when it was found out that it was treated tap water from a suburb in London and was no better than said tap water. When the press got ahold of it, it was a PR nightmare and pulled. I think it may be one of the funniest and worst PR disasters here for a while now. This got me thinking. At least we could do an episode on some of the biggest historic food fails. There used to be a museum in the States a long time ago that was a hall of shame for foods that that appeared and disappeared from supermarkets. Things like peas that were pressed into a shape of french fries to try to trick kids into eating their vegetables.

[Noel]

Yeah, as a father of a nine year old I can tell you that's not gonna fly.

[Ben]

It did not fly.

[Noel]

But I tried making my kid eat cauliflower because you can like make cauliflower into like a rice type substance. Yeah, she doesn't buy it. She knows it's not rice.

[Ben]

I'll make a cauliflower pizza. I bet she'd dig it.

[Noel]

Well, that's different. I feel like that's a good example, Ben, because that's like you're baking it and it has that crunch. But with rice, it's just, they're not, they're not rice sized grains.

[Ben]

You're not going to mistake them for rice. That's why it's riced. Cauliflower, not cauliflower rice. Right. So thank you, Mr. Venomous. Thank you, Adam, for writing in. We want to hear some more food fails. So send us your favorite ones from your neck of the global woods.

[Noel]

Yeah, you can write to [e-mail], you can hit us up on social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and all that. You can join our Facebook group, Ridiculous Historians, where we still kick around some fun ideas and have a. I have a really nice community that's sprung up there. So come hang out with us there on Ridiculous Historians.

[Ben]

Of course, we want to thank you for listening. We want to thank our super producer Casey Pegram. Thanks to Christopher Haciotes and Yves Jeffcoat, our research associates, and thanks to Alex Williams who composed our track.

[Noel]

We'll see you next time.

[Ben]

Folks, can we go out on the monkey song? That's catchy.

[Noel]

Oh, man, let's do.

[Ben]

Was up in.

[Noel]

The old antleypool about the time of.

[Ben]

France the emperor Napoleon was leading us a dance when up along the course.

[Noel]

Came a British man of war the.

[Ben]

Captain'S old pet monkey got washed up on the shore singing Old folks, young folks every one an inch Come and.

[Noel]

See the French he that's landed on the beach.

[Ben]

He's got long arms, a great long.

[Noel]

Tail and he's cupboard all in. Hey, we think Billy's a spy so we'll hang him in the square. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Amy Robach]

Amy Robach and T.J. holmes. Here Diddy's former protege, television personality Danity King. Alum Aubrey o' Day joins us to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation.

[T.J. Holmes]

It wasn't all bad, but I don't know that any of the good was real. I went through things there.

[Amy Robach]

Listen to Amy and TJ presents Aubrey O' Day covering the Diddy trial on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[T.J. Holmes]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife, Caroline.

[Ben]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[T.J. Holmes]

How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?

[Noel]

The fact that you lied is absolutely horrific. And quite frankly, I question how many other women are out there that may bring forward allegations in the future.

[T.J. Holmes]

Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Noel]

I've seen a lot of stuff over 30 years. You know, some very despicable crime and things that are kind of tough to wrap your head around. And this ranks right up there in the pantheon of Rhode island fraudsters.

[Ben]

I've always been told I'm a really good listener, right? And I maximized that while I was lying. Listen to Deep Cover the Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Noel]

A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways. Four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding, but the.

[Amy Robach]

Price has gone up, so now I only buy one.

[Noel]

Small but important ways, from tech billionaires.

[Ben]

To the bond market to, yeah, banana pudding.

[Noel]

If it's happening in business, our new.

[Ben]

Podcast is on it. I'm Max Chavkin.

[Noel]

And I'm Stacey Vanek Smith. So listen to everybody's business on the iHeartRadio app, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to an iHeart podcast.