CLASSIC: Why British Soccer Players Saluted the Nazis

Summary

Ridiculous History Episode Summary: "CLASSIC: Why British Soccer Players Saluted the Nazis"

Release Date: January 11, 2025
Hosted by Ben Bolin and Noel Brown
Produced by iHeartRadio

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Introduction to the Episode

In this compelling episode of Ridiculous History, hosts Ben Bolin and Noel Brown delve into an astonishing historical event: why British soccer players saluted the Nazis during a match in the lead-up to World War II. This episode intricately weaves the intersection of sports, politics, and propaganda, offering listeners a detailed exploration of how a seemingly innocuous soccer game became a significant moment in history.

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The Power of Sports as Propaganda

Ben Bolin initiates the discussion by drawing parallels between modern instances of sports being used for propaganda and historical precedents:

"Sport has always been a powerful tool to manipulate the minds of the people."
[02:32] Ben Bolin

They explore how sporting events have long served as platforms for nations to project soft power and influence public perception. Drawing from their recent work on the World Expo and a series on sports washing, Ben and Noel underscore the enduring role of sports in diplomatic and propagandistic strategies.

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Historical Context: The Rise of Nazi Germany

To fully understand the events surrounding the 1938 soccer match, the hosts provide a thorough backdrop of the political climate of the time:

• Rearmament and Aggression: In 1935, Nazi Germany publicly announced its intention to rearm, defying the Treaty of Versailles. This move exacerbated tensions across Europe, contributing to the aggressive expansionist policies of the Nazi regime.

• Policy of Appeasement: British Prime Ministers, including Neville Chamberlain, Ramsay MacDonald, and Stanley Baldwin, adopted a policy of appeasement toward Nazi Germany from 1935 to 1939. This approach aimed to avoid another devastating conflict like World War I but ultimately failed to contain Hitler's ambitions.

"The appeasement policy is often pointed out as the worst decision that Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain ever made."
[09:04] Ben Bolin

The hosts emphasize how appeasement was not only applied to Germany but also to Italy under Mussolini, highlighting the broader European reluctance to confront fascist regimes directly.

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The 1938 Soccer Match: A Symbolic Clash

The episode centers on the soccer match held on April 3, 1938, between Austria and Germany in Berlin's Olympic Stadium, which became a stage for political symbolism and propaganda.

Austria's "Wonder Team" and the Nazi Invasion

• Matthias Sindelar: Known as the "Mozart of football," Austrian star player Matthias Sindelar led the national team, famously referred to as the "Wonder Team." Sindelar vehemently opposed the Nazi regime and refused to cooperate with their attempts to merge Austrian and German football clubs.

"Sindelar refused to go along with it and did not look like he was trying very hard. He made it very clear that he was just shaking his head in disdain."
[17:24] Noel Brown

• Anschluss and Suppression: Following Germany's annexation of Austria (Anschluss) in March 1938, the Nazis attempted to suppress Austrian cultural and sporting identities. Sindelar's resistance made him a target, leading to his untimely and suspicious death later that year, likely orchestrated by Nazi officials to eliminate a symbol of defiance.

"According to Nazi rules, a person who had been murdered or who has committed suicide cannot be given a grave of honor."
[20:51] Noel Brown

The British-German Match and the Infamous Salute

On May 14, 1938, British soccer players traveled to Germany to play against the German team. Despite the rising tensions and Nazi aggression, the match was intended as a gesture of appeasement. However, both teams performed an unexpected act that would leave a lasting mark on history:

"The German and the British players raise their arms in the infamous Nazi salute."
[29:10] Noel Brown

• Symbolic Gestures: The British team, under Prime Minister Chamberlain's directive, saluted the German Nazi salute alongside performing their own gestures. This act was designed to showcase camaraderie and normalize relations, despite the underlying political tensions.

• Outcome and Reaction: England won the match 6-3, a result that was celebrated by the British but viewed critically in Germany. The British press, resistant to media manipulation efforts to garner support for appeasement, expressed outrage over the salutes, questioning the sincerity and implications of such gestures.

"Neville Chamberlain's and Britain's appeasement policy did not work. It was just a little more than a year before tensions broke and war began."
[37:30] Ben Bolin

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The Legacy of the 1938 Match

The episode concludes by reflecting on the broader implications of using sports as a medium for political messaging:

• Undermining Propaganda: The match demonstrated the limitations of appeasement and the use of sports in political propaganda. The shared gestures between British and German players did little to mask the growing animosity and impending conflict.

• Historical Lessons: Ben and Noel draw parallels between the past and present, cautioning against the manipulation of sports for political ends. They highlight the importance of recognizing and resisting such tactics to prevent history from repeating itself.

"What you're witnessing is the realization that sports can be just as intertwined with politics and power as religion and war."
[36:05] Ben Bolin

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Conclusion

In this eye-opening episode, Ridiculous History uncovers a lesser-known yet pivotal moment where sports intersected with the dark tides of political propaganda. Through meticulous research and engaging storytelling, Ben Bolin and Noel Brown illuminate how a soccer match became a battleground for ideological display, offering valuable insights into the complex relationship between sports and politics.

Listeners are left with a deeper appreciation of how historical events can be masked in seemingly trivial actions and the enduring impact such moments can have on the course of history.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ben Bolin, [02:32]: "Sport has always been a powerful tool to manipulate the minds of the people."

• Noel Brown, [09:04]: "The appeasement policy is often pointed out as the worst decision that Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain ever made."

• Noel Brown, [17:24]: "Sindelar refused to go along with it and did not look like he was trying very hard. He made it very clear that he was just shaking his head in disdain."

• Noel Brown, [20:51]: "According to Nazi rules, a person who had been murdered or who has committed suicide cannot be given a grave of honor."

• Noel Brown, [29:10]: "The German and the British players raise their arms in the infamous Nazi salute."

• Ben Bolin, [36:05]: "What you're witnessing is the realization that sports can be just as intertwined with politics and power as religion and war."

---

Final Thoughts

"CLASSIC: Why British Soccer Players Saluted the Nazis" offers a profound exploration of how sports can serve as a vessel for political narratives and propaganda. By revisiting this historical event, Ridiculous History not only educates but also invites listeners to reflect on the enduring power of sports in shaping societal and political landscapes.

For more insightful and entertaining historical tales, tune into Ridiculous History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Ben Bolin]

Hot take, you guys. I think Nazis are bad. I don't think.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, I think you're probably right. Nazi scum. Die. No, die. Nazi scum. What's the old adage?

[Ben Bolin]

I agree with both versions of it, to be honest with you.

[Noel Brown]

They've never been great and they've always historically kind of insisted on themselves.

[Ben Bolin]

And recently we recorded a series about the World's Fair. Just as a concept, it's called the World Expo these days. But we talked a bit about the soft diplomatic power that nations sought for when they hosted a World's Fair. And this is the same thing we see in sporting events in history and in the modern day. There's a propaganda power to it.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, absolutely. There's a certain fervor and zealotry that goes along with being a super fan of any sport that can be weaponized.

[Ben Bolin]

Absolutely. Check out our episode on sports washing there and stuff they don't want you to know. And while you're at it, join us for today's classic episode, why British soccer players saluted the Nazis in the lead up to World War II.

[Noel Brown]

Inquiring minds would like to know.

[Ben Bolin]

Let's roll it.

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[Ben Bolin]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the show, ladies and gentlemen. We're going to start today's episode with a look at something that happened very recently in American history, and that is the controversy taking place in American football, not what the rest of the world calls football. That's the controversy taking place in American football regarding players taking a knee in protest during the national anthem.

[Noel Brown]

I refuse. Wait, are you supposed to take a knee? No, you're not supposed to take a knee. It's disrespectful to take a knee. In fact, the NFL, I believe, just came out with new rules that require players contractually to stand for the national anthem. But as you say, Ben, yes, it was an act of defiance, a way of standing up or taking a knee rather, for their particular cause celebre. Is that okay, Casey? That was great.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, and that's our super producer, Casey.

[Noel Brown]

Pegram, who is, in fact, on the case.

[Ben Bolin]

And I'm Ben. And you are?

[Noel Brown]

I'm Noel.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh. And that makes this ridiculous history. Yeah. We are not the. It's no secret that you and I are not die hard NFL fans. But like many people in this country and in other countries, we were fascinated by this story, by this process of protest and counter protest. And Noel, as you pointed out just a Second ago, the NFL did, in May of 2018, ban the practice of taking a knee. Although this is a tremendously controversial ban.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, I think it's being appealed or picketed or, you know, protested in some way by the union, the players union, I believe. Because, come on, man. Like, if you can't. If you can't protest as a multimillionaire, overpaid sports figure, you know, what does that say for the rest of us?

[Ben Bolin]

And what does it say about free speech as well?

[Noel Brown]

Exactly. But we're talking about. Not this exactly. Kind of. It's weird. It's part of the story. But we're talking about kind of the opposite of this, which is using sports as propaganda.

[Ben Bolin]

Right. I would say that we are talking about a larger context because this specific event in modern history provides an excellent point of comparison to the earlier events that I think surprised both of us when we began digging into this. And sporting events on an international scale have long functioned as acts of propaganda. You know, iconic moments in history occurred at the Olympics, for instance. Right, absolutely.

[Noel Brown]

And what is the Olympics if not a chance for various countries to achieve perhaps not global dominance and hegemony, but at least dominance on the field of sport? Faux battle.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, yeah. And we see it in the World cup, we see it in the World Series, we see it in the Super Bowl. And today's episode involves a tremendously important political event that took place on a soccer field. We have to go into some political context, I think, first.

[Noel Brown]

Right, we do, Ben. It's true. So we're talking about Germany, right. And the second half of the 1930s, the Nazi party that had taken over Germany was really, really, really becoming quite aggressive, weren't they, Ben? In 1935, they publicly announced that they were going to rearm their military, which flew in the face of a little something called the Treaty of Versailles that ended World War I. Isn't that right, Ben?

[Ben Bolin]

That is correct, Noel. And we've talked a little bit in the past about the enormous cost Germany bore as a result of World War I. And this had dangerous effects on their economy. And it's one of the factors that allowed the very aggressive, expansionist Nazi regime to come into power.

[Noel Brown]

That's right.

[Ben Bolin]

And at the time, other people, other countries and heads of state couldn't agree on what the proper unified response to this aggressive German government should be. The question was, should we contain the Nazi party and Germany? Should we openly combat them or should we attempt to, you know, appease them? Make nice.

[Noel Brown]

Let's, let's run with that word, Ben. Let's make a whole system out of this. Yeah, A policy. We'll call it appeasement.

[Ben Bolin]

There we go. How about that in a burst of creativity.

[Noel Brown]

Well, but you can understand why, I mean, people were shell shocked from the havoc that was wreaked by World War I all across Europe. I mean, that was no fun. It was utter devastation in many parts of the country. And the Treaty of Versailles, even the Allies kind of realized people on the ground. At least from what I've read that the Treaty of Versailles wasn't particularly fair to a lot of the countries that involved, especially Germany, because under the treaty they were limited to having 100,000 strong military. But again, in 35, after they'd been kind of amassing weaponry all these years, they got the confidence under Hitler to come out and say, yo, we are Building up our military again. Boo on your treaty. We could care less. And they escalated that. 36. They occupied the Rhineland, which is an area, a region, a small region in the middle of the country. Also totally against the Treaty of Versailles.

[Ben Bolin]

Yes. And this appeasement policy may sound strange to us today because we have the benefit of knowing what happened after this policy was in place. But the appeasement policy is often pointed out as the worst decision that Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain ever made. But there were other British prime ministers who followed the same policy, including Ramsay McDonald and Stanley Baldwin. This wasn't just made for Germany. It also was applied to Italy, which was under the control of a fascist regime at the time.

[Noel Brown]

That's right.

[Ben Bolin]

And it lasted from 1935 to 1939. Our story today takes place during that time. It takes place in 1938 at a soccer game.

[Noel Brown]

It's true. And just to backtrack ever so slightly, to go back into appeasement, every time the Nazis did these kind of brash moves, like occupying the Rhineland in the year of our story, they annexed Austria. Right. And they actually, like, did a coup d'etat within their Nazi. Already pretty strong Nazi party within Austria. And Austria being Hitler's boyhood home.

[Ben Bolin]

Right. We're going to spend a lot of time in this episode going from the specific events to the larger context. So before we get to the famous event that occurred in May, May 14, 1938, let's go back earlier in the year to April, where we saw another precedent set. An example of protests through sport.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, the one we kind of alluded to at the top of the show. Because like I said a minute ago, it was in 1938 that Germany really went in the paint and totally annexed Austria, as I said, overthrew the government in an effort to combine the two countries in an event they refer to as the Anschluss. And Austria had a pretty ballin pun, totally intended. Soccer team, football team headed up by a guy by the name of Matthias Schindler, or Schindler, I've heard. I think it's Sendler. There's no S C H. It's S I N D E L A R. And Ben, he had a really cool nickname, didn't he?

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, it was the Paperman. Er, der Paper in Sindelaar. S I N D E L A R was known as the Mozart of football as well. I don't know if you saw that one. He played as the center forward for the Austrian national team that was known as the wonder team. And he captained the 1934 World Cup. This guy is a football superstar. And this game that occurs on April 3rd in 1938 was meant to celebrate what Germany was calling. Get this, Austria's coming home to the Reich.

[Noel Brown]

Come on home to the Reich.

[Ben Bolin]

Come on home to the Reich.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Yeah. But here's the problem. Schindler hated the Nazis. Predictably, yeah, predictably, yeah. I mean, they totally came into his country, took it over, tried to change everything about his way of life, including trying to smush his football club in with the German football club. That sucked, by the way. Germany was not good at soccer. Can I call it soccer? I'm just going to call it soccer.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, just call it soccer. As a matter of fact, we have a fun firebomb to throw for you ridiculous historians. If you are football or soccer, a.

[Noel Brown]

Factual Molotov cocktail, it might be a.

[Ben Bolin]

Bit incendiary for some people. I found this article in the Atlantic called why Americans Call Soccer Soccer by Uri Friedman. It's a British term. It's not a US Term.

[Noel Brown]

Okay?

[Ben Bolin]

And we here in the States picked it up from England. The word soccer originated in England, fell into disuse there, and became dominant in the States. And there are some people who have studied this, who found. What they did is they looked at the frequency with the words football, and soccer appeared in American and British news outlets dating back to 1900. Soccer was a recognized term for the game we're describing for the first half of the 20th century, but it wasn't widely used until after World War II, when it became interchangeable with the phrase football and sometimes used together, soccer, football.

[Noel Brown]

Okay? But I'm an American. I'm an American and I'm proud of it. So I call hitting that. That ball with. You hit your foot with the ball game. I'm a call it soccer. So just. Just as not to confuse, you know, because I don't want to. American football. That sounds ridiculous.

[Ben Bolin]

So you have to say it in a British accent. You say American football.

[Noel Brown]

Although the fact the Brits have been dominant in the sport for sure since the very beginning.

[Ben Bolin]

And I want to throw this up real quick because I'm sure this is going to interest several of you ridiculous historians, especially if you've had an argument with one of your friends across the pond about this. It traces back to World War II. Most likely American troops stationed in the UK during the war came back and started using that phrase. And that led to a backlash against the word in Britain. And now this word has completely immigrated.

[Noel Brown]

To the U.S. isn't that funny, you still haven't given me the etymology. It's just like, is it about the socks? The knee socks? The fact that you're socking the ball around with your foots?

[Ben Bolin]

It's a shortening of association footballer.

[Noel Brown]

That's stupid.

[Ben Bolin]

So soccer, that's the worst possible answer. But you can't. You can't go in and expect a language to conform to what you as an individual.

[Noel Brown]

I'm not mad at you then. I didn't mean that to come off like it was your fault. The origin of soccer is so dull. But I'm disappointed.

[Ben Bolin]

I think it's fascinating.

[Noel Brown]

It is fascinating, Ben. You know what else is fascinating?

[Ben Bolin]

Back to Sendler.

[Noel Brown]

Let's do it. So again, super salty about the Nazis coming in and invading his home turf and trying to, you know, jam up his. His soccer club. And so they.

[Ben Bolin]

This.

[Noel Brown]

This game in question in. What do we say? April of 1938.

[Ben Bolin]

April 3, 1938.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. It's meant to be, on paper at least, a celebration of the historical legacy of the Austrian soccer club and the.

[Ben Bolin]

Last match that the team would have as an independent Austrian team before it.

[Noel Brown]

Gets smushed in with the far inferior German club.

[Ben Bolin]

So they begin protesting the moment they.

[Noel Brown]

Hit the field, kind of.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Well, what I had seen in an amazing documentary from the BBC called Fascism and Football was that it was very clear that the Austrians had been told to lose. Yeah. To throw the game, to throw the match.

[Ben Bolin]

To show the symbolic or propagandistic importance of aligning with Germany.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. And just one quick aside, one quote that I think is so amazing from this documentary, fascism in football, rather, you can find the whole thing on YouTube. And it's just great is that the idea that sports were such a powerful tool for propaganda because when you win, you win. And you can't, like, no one can accuse you of lying, because if you win and are dominant in a sport, then that's just before everyone's very eyes. You are the clear, you are the winner, you won, and you play by the rules.

[Ben Bolin]

It's what we today would refer to as optics.

[Noel Brown]

Optics. Npr.

[Ben Bolin]

And so the star player of Austria's team, Sindalar.

[Noel Brown]

That's right.

[Ben Bolin]

Refuses to go along with this plan. He says, I am not going to pay obeisance to this invading power. And furthermore, I'm not going to cheapen the most important thing in my life.

[Noel Brown]

When the funny thing is too, like, yes, you're absolutely right, he definitely did not go along with it and that he did not look like he was trying very hard. He made it very clear that he was just kind of farting along very lacklusterly. Right. I think he was like shaking his head in disdain kind of.

[Ben Bolin]

And refused to wear the uniforms. They were supposed to wear their traditional white and black. They replaced it with, on Sindelar's orders, more or less. The Austrians played in red, white, red outfits, the national flags, colors.

[Noel Brown]

Yikes.

[Ben Bolin]

And yeah, like you're saying the audience knew something was up because it seemed like they just weren't trying. They were just farting around until what, the last 20 minutes?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. And then, and then Sendler, the paper man, scored one of two goals and.

[Ben Bolin]

Carl Sesta got the second one, who.

[Noel Brown]

I think was his bestie. I think, I think they were, they were like really, really close. And yeah, they totally, totally humiliated the Nazis. Apparently. Kind of did one of those like end zone kind of cocky, cock of the walk kind of dances right in front of like, can you imagine the SC been stands full of Nazi officials.

[Ben Bolin]

High senior Nazi dignitaries, and they celebrated extravagantly. They owned the moment because they really had publicly humiliated these officials. And we don't have solid historical proof of this. So this is entirely speculation on my part. But I would not be surprised if some of those pro Nazi forces, knowing in theory the outcome of the game, had decided to gamble on it a bit.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, absolutely.

[Ben Bolin]

So they were out money, but more importantly they were out public credibility.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, absolutely. And here's the thing. As you might imagine, Sindler was made Persona non grata at that point. He was declared internal Gestapo memos on him that declared him pro Jewish, among other death sentence worthy distinctions, like a social democrat. That's it.

[Ben Bolin]

That's right. So he about within the year, or within a year after these events, he was dead at the age of 35.

[Noel Brown]

Under the most suspicious circumstances. I think he had been out partying that night and gambling in a coffee shop that he was a part owner of or the guy that talks about it. His buddy in this documentary referred to it as his coffee shop. I'm not sure if that was just a translation thing or if it was just like the place where they all hang out.

[Ben Bolin]

Right.

[Noel Brown]

But they were gambling, playing cards, a lot of money was on the table and a lot of drinking. And then he went back with his girlfriend to her apartment and you know, yada, yada yada, one thing led to another, they go to sleep and they never wake up because they died of carbon. Actually, she ended up in a coma that she never recovered from. And he died in his sleep of.

[Ben Bolin]

Carbon monoxide poisoning, which was recorded as an accident.

[Noel Brown]

Why?

[Ben Bolin]

Because this is super cool. Yeah. Because according to Egon Ulbricht, a lifelong friend of Sindalar, he's the guy I.

[Noel Brown]

Was talking about that was talking about the gambling night.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, yeah. He says in the documentary, and then also in an article called Football Fascism in England's Nazi Salute on the BBC by Jonathan Duffy, he says that the truth of the story was that a local official was bribed to record Sindalar's death. Death as an accident, ensuring that he would receive a state funeral. Because. And we have a great quote from Ulbricht about this. Because Nazis have particular rules about this.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. This is the quote. According to the Nazi rules, a person who had been murdered or who has committed suicide cannot be given a grave of honor. So we had to do something to ensure that the criminal element involved in his death was removed. That's wild, man.

[Ben Bolin]

And it continued escalating. Yeah. The Germans were very, very serious about the value of propaganda. And from their perspective, this sort of insolence could not stand. So it's pretty obvious that he was murdered.

[Noel Brown]

No doubt. And did we mention the fact that for a while, as the Nazis rose to power, maybe this is obvious to everybody but me, they kind of masked their awful racist ways totally. But they didn't reveal the full nature of their Final Solution or their idea of, you know, pulling up the Jews and the Roma people or any of the just horrible, horrible racist leanings until a good bit later. And this was still during that time where obviously they meant business, but the true nature of their evil was not on full display yet.

[Ben Bolin]

Well, it was also in that time. This is an unfortunate and ugly truth. In that time, antisemitism was widespread.

[Noel Brown]

We know, just in the gen pop.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah. Just like throughout Europe. Definitely. Also clearly in the US and the same prejudices applied to Roma as well and other quote, unquote, you know, subversive elements or what they would call deviants. So these people, this group, had existed throughout various countries in Europe for centuries. Right. And the shocking racism, the anti Semitism, the ironclad and puritanical attitudes about sex were normal. If you read a German textbook about the concept of living space for the German people, it's not that different from many other textbooks of the time that also argued the innate superiority of certain ethnic groups. And it might change during the country. So people didn't know. I think the point you're making that's really important is people did not know that there was genocide on the horizon. Privately, members of the Nazi regime were already thinking of ways to forcibly deport elements of the population they didn't improve on, and they were trying to figure out where to put them. Like, would it be Madagascar? Would it be some other country? And then eventually, as we know, this led to one of the most horrific occurrences in human history.

[Noel Brown]

God. And I hate to get political about it, but it feels like when you start reading about the early stages of the Nazi takeover and the kind of rhetoric, that kind of this nationalistic rhetoric, while not overtly racist, very dog whistle racist in a very similar way that we're experiencing in our country right now. And it scares the crap out of me reading this and thinking about history repeating in multiple countries. Right, Absolutely.

[Ben Bolin]

So we've got this. We've got this context with Sindalar, who now we know was murdered, but originally.

[Noel Brown]

We don't really know. I mean, you can't. It couldn't. I mean, come on.

[Ben Bolin]

It feels like he was.

[Noel Brown]

Come on.

[Ben Bolin]

You're right. We don't know for sure. We.

[Noel Brown]

Those. Those classifications. I mean, he. That was. Everyone says that was a death sentence.

[Ben Bolin]

Somebody had their eye on him, and not in a good way.

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[Jason Alexander]

It's called really no really. And you can find it on the iHeartRadio app on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maria Tremarke]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarke]

Each season, we explore a new theme. Everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Yep, that's a fact.

[Maria Tremarke]

We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching, to see what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective.

[Holly Fry]

And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom made cocktails and mocktails inspired by the stories. There's one for every story we tell.

[Maria Tremarke]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bolin]

So in this context, we have the precedent for protests, and then we have the precedent for sport events overall, especially football. Soccer. Football, soccer, whatever you want to call it. We see this as a medium for propagandistic communication. Let's get back to this concept of appeasement. Let's talk a little bit about Neville Chamberlain.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. And how far this idea of appeasement went in the way it played out on what the Brits refer to as the soccer pitch.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah. Yeah. We talk a lot about media manipulation in the modern day, but it was a known, tried and true technique here in the 1930s as well. So much so that going back to May 1938, the 14th of May, English soccer players travel to Germany to play the German team in a soccer match.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. But minus. Yeah, minus their ace in the hole, Schindler, who was still living at this time. But he refused. Probably another reason he was blacklisted in the way he was. To add insult to injury, he refused to play for the new combined Austrian Germany team, which obviously was just called the German team. He said he cited old age, but he was like, 35, I think.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

And also simultaneously, injury. So it was just a bit of a fu to old furor.

[Ben Bolin]

So let's set the scene. Casey, could we have maybe the sound of a crowd at a soccer match? More than 100,000 soccer fans file into Berlin's Olympic stadium. And the countries at this point, everybody knows war is escalating. Things are ratcheting up right big time. And these countries, Britain and Germany, are still playing nice. They don't trust each other, but they're still going through the motions. And the gestures of diplomacy and swastikas and British flags are flying side by side. The German national anthem is being played over the speakers, but on the field below. If you can imagine this in your mind, fellow historians, something very strange occurs. The German and the British players raise their arms in the infamous Nazi salute. The Heil.

[Noel Brown]

Let's hear the clip.

[Ben Bolin]

Kopp.

[Noel Brown]

Final enthusiasm prevails in Berlin when England beat Germany on the soccer field. All the courtesies are observed before the start. God Save the King is played.

[Ben Bolin]

And.

[Noel Brown]

The English team in white shirts give the Nazi salute during the German national anthem. 115,000 spectators packed the greater. So that was newsreel footage from the Associated Press on the day of this infamous event. And it's reported eerily, in a matter of fact kind of way. But there was a lot of controversy surrounding this game because by this point, if not their full Final Solution level, complete and utter evilness was on display. People knew that the Nazis were fascists.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

And big time.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah. And the. The British press, despite efforts at media manipulation to make the population pro appeasement, the British press had had enough outrage and it was even. There was even more insult to injury because it turned out, despite this gesture on the part of the English team, Adolf Hitler wasn't even at the game. He wasn't present. They were just saluting the idea of Nazis.

[Noel Brown]

No, it's true. In fact, I think the very first game he ever attended earlier in this story, the Germans lost to, I think it was the Netherlands or a smaller team that was seen as being less skilled than the German team. And he was really irritated about that. So he didn't always make appearances, but no, he was not at this game. And the thing is, the Germans did lose this game. They got their bratwurst handed to them by the Brits, who, again, as we said, were pretty damn dominant in this sport. There's an interview in this documentary where the guy's like, yeah, it wasn't really that big of a surprise because pretty much everyone lost to the uk.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, yeah. Can we play that guy's clip? I just love his voice. To lose to England at that time was nothing unusual because basically everybody lost to the British team at the time. So I think for Hitler, the propaganda.

[Noel Brown]

Effect of that game was a lot.

[Ben Bolin]

More important than everything else. Right. They were known to be one of the best teams on the planet. They won the game six to three. Six, England three, Germany. And the weird thing about the score is it was somewhat of a footnote because the thing everybody was focusing on was this bizarre attempt at diplomacy. It wasn't spontaneous on the part of the English team.

[Noel Brown]

Oh no.

[Ben Bolin]

Neville Chamberlain had in advance told them to do it. And from what we understand, the intent of this was to make nice and show that Germany was not considered to be a quote, pariah state.

[Noel Brown]

That's right.

[Ben Bolin]

Despite the fact that they pac manned up Austria.

[Noel Brown]

And that was also kind of part of Germany's propagandistic way of looking at this, was to show that, hey, we're just like you. We like to play sport and we like to goose step around in our strange Nazi uniforms and Heil. Wait, something's wrong here.

[Ben Bolin]

Showcase our superior area.

[Noel Brown]

Because I want to go back a little way just for. Because I think this is a really important point. The real stage setter for Hitler's use of sport in this way was the 1936 Olympics.

[Ben Bolin]

The Berlin Olympics.

[Noel Brown]

The Berlin Olympics, which is super interesting because that was like a world stage. Everyone's watching, it's in Berlin, Hitler's there. He used it as an opportunity to showcase, like you said, the efficiency, the militaristic might of the Nazi state. But there was a little kink in Hitler's idea here of showcasing the might and prowess of the Aryan supremacy or what have you, this mythos he was trying to create when Jesse Owens, an African American competitor, won four gold medals. That's right, Ben, four gold medals. It was in the 100 meter, 200 meter long jump and 4 by 100 meter relay race just completely in front of God and everyone crushing that idea. And Hitler was none too pleased.

[Ben Bolin]

Right. Which is, which is weird because this is such an iconic moment and you know, we're gonna brag a little bit. Jesse Owens is American, so take that, Nazis.

[Noel Brown]

Indeed.

[Ben Bolin]

Do you like how I brag it? As if we had anything to do with it. Sure, yeah. But there's an interesting tidbit here because. So this occurs in August of 1936. August 1, I think, is the first day of competition. There was a newspaper editor named Robert L. Vann, himself African American, who was at the scene. And in an article dated to August 4, 1936, he says, Wonder of wonders, I saw Herr Adolf Hitler salute the lad. I looked on with a heart which beat proudly as the lad who was crowned king of the 100 meters event got an ovation the like of which I had never heard before. I saw Jesse Owens greeted by the grand chancellor of this country as a brilliant sun peeped out through the clouds. I saw a vast crowd of some 85,000 or 90,000 people stand up and cheer his him to the echo. And that is winning hearts and minds, isn't it? I think it's so easy to underestimate the importance that these sorts of events can play in human history.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, absolutely, yeah. No, because people, I mean, I've seen pieces whole, you know, papers written about the idea of sports as a religion. People put as much credence in, you know, baseball players and basketball players. They do in, you know, God.

[Ben Bolin]

Right. Like King James, the name for LeBron.

[Noel Brown]

Because it's a stand in for our hopes and dreams. You know, even if it's sort of a false dichotomy, just because you win a soccer game as a country doesn't. Doesn't really translate in reality to your might or prowess. It's sort of a microcosmic view of.

[Ben Bolin]

That, which is why so many countries spend so much money and time and occasionally so much effort at skullduggery when it comes to winning international sports competitions. I have a thing I'd like your take on, Noel. And you as well, folks. Do you think sport, the concept just sports games, do you feel like it has taken in the most powerful parts of religion, the most powerful parts of war, and the most powerful parts of economy? I feel like it has.

[Noel Brown]

I think you just answered your own question, Ben. That is a very.

[Ben Bolin]

I mean, what do you think, though?

[Noel Brown]

I think it's a very. No, I think that is an astute point and I think that's absolutely true. And I think we see that too with what we open the show with the idea of the power that these players have. And when it doesn't jive with the money behind the power or like the organizational power behind the scenes, there can be issues. Sometimes it involves people getting carbon monoxide poisoned to death in their sleep. Sometimes it involves getting, you know, players being suspended for not for taking a knee during a national anthem. It's just interesting the way politics and sports can be so intertwined. And I think it all goes back to even earlier than this. This is just probably the biggest, most obvious political example that we have. But to your point, Ben, as far back as the Romans and gladiators and bread and circuses and all that, sport has always been a powerful tool to manipulate the minds of the people. Manipulate maybe is the wrong word. I don't know. What do you think?

[Ben Bolin]

I feel like manipulate is a perfect word for this. Also, we have to point out spoiler alert for World War II, everyone. So tune out if you don't want to get spoiled for this. We have to point out that Chamberlain's and Britain's appeasement policy did not work.

[Noel Brown]

No.

[Ben Bolin]

It was just a little more than a year before tensions broke and war began. Correct, Noel?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. It was September of 1939. The Nazis invaded Poland. And that was just a bridge too far for the Allies. They'd finally had enough. The Germans leaked, leagued up with the Soviets to partition Poland into their own separate spheres of influence. And that, my friend, is the story of how World War II really began in earnest. And that's a story for another time.

[Jason Alexander]

I'm Jason Alexander.

[Peter Tilden]

And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the really no really.

[Jason Alexander]

Podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions.

[Peter Tilden]

Like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor.

[Jason Alexander]

We got the answer.

[Peter Tilden]

Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by.

[Jason Alexander]

Mr. Bryan Cross, hello.

[Peter Tilden]

My friend, Wayne Knight. About Jurassic Park.

[Jason Alexander]

Wayne Knight, welcome to really. No, really, sir.

[Noel Brown]

Bless you all.

[Peter Tilden]

Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging.

[Noel Brown]

Really? That's the opening?

[Jason Alexander]

Really?

[Noel Brown]

Not really. Yeah, really? No, really.

[Jason Alexander]

Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win.

[Peter Tilden]

500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign Jason Bobblehead.

[Jason Alexander]

It's called really? No, really. And you can find it on the iHeartRadio app on on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maria Tremarke]

Welcome to the Criminalia podcast. I'm Maria Tremarki.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together, we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarke]

Each season we explore a new theme, everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Yep, that's a fact.

[Maria Tremarke]

We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching. To see what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective.

[Holly Fry]

And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom made cocktails and mocktails inspired by the stories there's one for every story we tell.

[Maria Tremarke]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bolin]

You know, I really enjoyed this episode, Nolan. I hate to close so soon. Hey, what do you say we do a little bit of listener mail?

[Noel Brown]

Huge F. So the first one I want to pull from a Facebook post that is a really good summary of a myriad of emails we got. Facebook posts a few people slid into our DMs on Instagram and Facebook.

[Ben Bolin]

I loved all of them, by the way. Thanks for writing to us, folks.

[Noel Brown]

No doubt. But they very gingerly shredded us on our pronunciation of a few. Philadelphia. Philadelphia, let's say it together.

[Ben Bolin]

3, 2, 1. School kill.

[Noel Brown]

Only there's some people that even quibble with that one, which is why it makes me feel good about it. This guy says laughing at Ben Bolin and Noel Brown butchering school kill river. I believe we said combination of Shoikil shul kill. Yeah, whatever. It was wrong. This guy, John C. Says it's pronounced school all caps dash kill and then.

[Ben Bolin]

Added you added John, a smiling, laughing emoji. So we knew that we hadn't fatally offended.

[Noel Brown]

No, he shredded us with love. And then Ben, as we're want to do on Ridiculous Historians, posted a delightful response saying we murdered that pronunciation so hard that this episode counts as true crime. Bidoosh.

[Ben Bolin]

Hey, thanks for.

[Noel Brown]

And he says thanks for listening as well for the valuable correction.

[Ben Bolin]

I did say it. Thanks for. You just quoted me to myself.

[Noel Brown]

I quoted you to yourself.

[Ben Bolin]

You did a lady mail.

[Noel Brown]

I love it.

[Ben Bolin]

That's weird. But yeah, but check out this thread. This is part of the reason why we love the Ridiculous Historians page. Because some of your fellow listeners didn't just point out the correct or accepted pronunciation of this river. Some of them also began bantering back and forth, disagreeing on their own ideas about pronunciation. Right?

[Noel Brown]

Big time. And then we had one Oliver C. Pop in with a little Georgia centric thing saying here in Georgia they call the old muddy river ok, Mulge oak mugi Okmoogie.

[Ben Bolin]

And that's spelled O, C M U L, G E, E. But the funny.

[Noel Brown]

Thing is, I am from Georgia and I've always said Okmulgee and I've heard it pronounced that way, but whatever you say. And then ghee like clarified butter. Okmulgee. Okay. No, that's right. Okmulgee. That's right. I've heard it that way. And what you would think would be Houston county is actually Houston county, which I've noticed.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, that happened to me one time.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. And then we've got a guy, Rob S. Saying, jersey, born and raised here. I always heard it as Skookill.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah. Drop the l. And John C. Comes back in, in the thread and says, I don't know if Philadelphians have much room to talk about pronunciation. And he shared this fascinating Washington Post article about the unique Philadelphia accent, which I highly recommend you check out.

[Noel Brown]

Like, water ice.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Which is basically like, what, like a. Like a freeze pop or like kind of Italian ice?

[Ben Bolin]

Beach towels.

[Noel Brown]

Beach towels, yeah.

[Ben Bolin]

And we've got a question that I think will interest a lot of us in the audience, and it is this. What are the strangely pronounced places, landmarks, or things in your neck of the woods? Because, for instance, you know, there's Worcester in Massachusetts.

[Noel Brown]

Right.

[Ben Bolin]

Which is completely not pronounced. How it's sound, how it's spelled.

[Noel Brown]

There's Peabody in Boston, I believe. Or in Massachusetts as well, where it's apparently Peabody, Peabody, Peabody, Peabody. Which is another county or town in Massachusetts.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

So it takes all kinds.

[Ben Bolin]

Let us know. We want to hear. We're not exaggerating. We want to hear the weirdest ones. Who knows? You may save us from. You may save us from a future Internet post.

[Noel Brown]

You know what? Bring it on, babies.

[Ben Bolin]

I love it. So we want to thank you, of course, for journeying with us through this story of sports and protest and appeasement. We want to thank Casey Pegram. And we want to thank Christopher Haciotes, research associate, who hipped us to this story.

[Noel Brown]

Do you have a sound effect yet?

[Ben Bolin]

Let's see. Who else do we thank? Oh, Alex Williams, who composed our track, and you, Noel Brown.

[Noel Brown]

Ben.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, that's.

[Noel Brown]

I'd like to thank you, too, man.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, boy. So stay tuned for our next episode where we delve into a strange story about Heineken, which was actually really inspiring.

[Noel Brown]

Heineken, that Pabst Blue Ribbon.

[Ben Bolin]

All right. Yeah, well, I mean, it takes all beers, you know, I'm a PBR man. Yeah, you are a PBR man.

[Noel Brown]

But you know what? You can't build a hut out of PBR cans.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, well, you could. It just wouldn't be as cool.

[Noel Brown]

No.

[Ben Bolin]

What the heck are we talking about? You may be asking yourself. Tune in to find out. In the meantime, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and we're about.

[Noel Brown]

To roll out that Pinterest page.

[Ben Bolin]

I think that's it. I'm doing a vision board. I'm keeping it analog, bro. I love it.

[Noel Brown]

Really?

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

You're done. You're off the net?

[Ben Bolin]

No, the vision board at least is just. It's a wall in my house and I just paste up different pictures. I've been going through a laser tag phase.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, that's. Oh, cool. Like, you're gonna go laser tag fashion from here on out. You're gonna come to work looking like Tron and stuff.

[Ben Bolin]

That would be cool. You in? You interested in this?

[Noel Brown]

Sure, man. I'll try anything, you know, a bunch of times.

[Ben Bolin]

Awesome.

[Noel Brown]

In the meantime, if you don't want to do any of that stuff, which you should, you can also join the Facebook group Ridiculous Historians. Or you can just send us a good old fashioned [e-mail] for more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Jason Alexander]

I'm Jason Alexander.

[Peter Tilden]

And I'm Peter Tilden.

[Jason Alexander]

And together our mission on the really.

[Peter Tilden]

Know really podcast is to get the.

[Jason Alexander]

True answers to life's baffling questions, like.

[Peter Tilden]

Why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure? And does your dog truly love you? We have the answer.

[Jason Alexander]

Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win.

[Peter Tilden]

500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign. Jason Bobblehead the Really no really podcast.

[Jason Alexander]

Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maria Tremarke]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarke]

Each season we explore a new theme, from poisoners to art thieves.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.

[Maria Tremarke]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.