Did Lead Lead to the Fall of the Roman Empire?

Summary

---

Ridiculous History

Episode Summary: Did Lead Lead to the Fall of the Roman Empire?

Podcast: Ridiculous History (iHeartPodcasts)
Hosts: Ben Bowlin & Noel Brown
Date: March 31, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Ben and Noel dive into a long-debated (and somewhat sensationalized) theory: Did lead exposure contribute to the fall of the Roman Empire? Playing with their signature blend of irreverence and curiosity, the hosts trace both scientific and pop-culture arguments around the role lead—and lead poisoning—may have played in the eventual decline of one of history’s most influential empires.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Enduring Mystery of Rome’s Fall (06:29)

• Mainstream Theories: Classic factors blamed include military defeats, political corruption, economic crises, and internal strife—a “cosmic gumbo” (06:54).
• Host Banter: Plenty of wordplay around “getting the lead out”; ongoing jokes about Roman “barbarians” and their etymology (09:02).
• Quote:

  “It is impossible to overestimate just how much of an impact this empire made on the rest of the world up to the present day.” – Ben (06:29)

2. Lead in the Modern Imagination (11:28)

• Modern Associations: When Americans think “lead,” they think of unleaded gasoline, Flint, Michigan, and pencils (which actually use graphite, not lead) (11:28).
• Humorous Aside:

  “If you ask them to sell you gas with lead in it because you're a weird person… you may be surprised.” – Ben (13:13)

3. Lead in Ancient Rome: Versatility and Ubiquity (16:16)

• Lead as the Plastic of Its Time: Used for pipes, cookware, pigments (white lead), coins, and as a sweetener (sapa). (17:13)
• Utility vs Toxicity: Lead’s malleability and abundance made it popular, but its toxicity was not fully understood, though some Roman physicians noted “lead makes the mind give way.” (19:20)
• Quote:

  “It is so bad for you. It is bad for everyone. It's not like gluten, where some people are fine with it.” – Ben (18:04)

4. Early Theories: Did Romans Poison Themselves? (25:42)

• Origins of the Theory: 19th-century historians noticed widespread use of lead in Roman utensils and speculated about chronic poisoning (25:42).
• Class Differences: Wealthier Romans more likely to encounter lead—via tableware, wine sweetened with lead acetate, pipes for plumbing (26:51).
• Notable Study Reference: S.C. Gilfillan’s 1965 paper “Lead Poisoning and the Fall of Rome” (27:30).

5. Recent Scientific Investigations (31:20)

• Breakthrough Study (2025):
  • Professor Joseph McConnell’s team used Arctic ice cores to quantify ancient atmospheric lead pollution.
  • The data showed that during Pax Romana (approx. 27 BCE–180 CE), Roman silver mining and smelting released between 3,300 and 4,600 tons of lead per year. (42:47)
  • Levels in the air correlated with Roman economic highs; pollution from silver production far outstripped the actual silver produced (41:13).
• Memorable Quote:

  “To produce one ounce of silver at this time, the Romans probably also produced something like 10,000 ounces of lead.” – Dr. McConnell, via NYT (41:50)

6. Mechanisms of Lead Exposure & Health Impacts (35:02)

• Air Pollution: Lead inhaled from industrial activities, not just ingested via plumbing or wine. (32:39)
• Estimated Impact: The new study suggests children in Rome during Pax Romana had elevated blood lead levels solely from the air, leading to a 2.5 to 3 point average IQ drop (35:02, 50:20).
• Comparisons: US children in the 1970s dropped up to nine IQ points due to higher blood lead levels from gasoline and paint—so Rome’s exposure was less severe (51:37).
• Children Hit Hardest: Kids are especially vulnerable to developmental harm from lead (49:24).

7. The Big Question: Was Lead THE Reason? (52:35)

• Skeptical Experts:

  • Lead certainly caused harm—especially among the elite—but probably not enough for it to be a sole or even a top-five reason for the empire’s fall (53:13).
  • “Even if we accept the validity ... experts aren’t in agreement ... that a provable 2.5 to 3-point drop in IQ was enough to do the thing—to affect the entire population.” – Ben (54:47)
  • Pathologist Amy L. Pyle Ilola: “A far cry from causing the downfall of the Roman Empire.” (56:08)
  • Neurobiologist Caleb Finch: Roman society's achievements persisted at their peak lead exposure (57:07).

• Complex Conclusion:

  • The theory is probably “overblown” in pop culture.
  • Lead exposure likely contributed to general cognitive and health decline—especially for the elite—but was just one (less significant) factor among many.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Appeal of the Theory:

  “We’ve been obsessed with this... it fits right in the sweet spot of the Venn diagram between our two shows.” – Noel (10:32)

• About Lead Exposure:

  “Lead was treated the way people treat plastic today.” – Ben (18:04)

• On Modern Parallels:

  “We're in a similar boat here, not necessarily with lead poisoning, but with things like social media and AI… on a long enough timeline going to cause significant declines in IQ.” – Noel (35:46)

• On Evidence from Ice Cores:

  “It’s like a time capsule. You can look down through these massively long ice noodles... and see what happened in the past.” – Noel (37:13)

• On IQ Testing:

  “Humans still don’t really understand how to define intelligence, much less how to measure it.” – Ben (54:18)

---

Important Segments & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |---|---| | 06:29 | Overview: Impact and fall of Rome—what led to it? | | 09:02 | Etymology of “barbarian” & jokes | | 11:28 | What does “lead” mean to Americans? Modern context/flint/pencils | | 16:16 | History of lead—mining, uses in Rome, toxicity | | 25:42 | 1800s/1960s: Theory that wealthy Romans poisoned themselves | | 31:20 | NEW scientific studies: Arctic ice cores, concrete proof of airborne lead | | 35:02 | Impact on children: Estimated IQ points lost from airborne lead | | 41:13 | Economic boom, silver mining, industrial pollution under Pax Romana | | 50:20 | Modern comparisons, Flint and 1970s US children IQ | | 53:13 | Why lead was not the ultimate factor—expert skepticism, limits of IQ tests | | 56:08 | Expert medical doubt: Lead alone not enough to destroy an empire | | 59:00 | Reflection: Living on “hard mode” in ancient times vs. now |

---

Final Takeaways

• Lead exposure in Ancient Rome was widespread, especially among the elite, and likely contributed to cognitive and health issues.
• Modern science confirms significant atmospheric and direct exposure, but it’s a stretch to claim this caused the fall of Rome.
• The story speaks more to the unpredictable hazards of technological progress and industry—both then and now—than to a simple cause-effect explanation.
• For today’s civilizations, the lesson is to scrutinize our own "miracle materials" and their long-term impacts.

---

Tone & Style

The episode is conversational, humorous, and frequently digressive (with pop culture and music asides), yet dedicated to respectful, evidence-based historical inquiry. Ben and Noel balance academic skepticism with a genuine delight in history's oddities.

---

Select Quotes with Timestamps

• “Lead makes the mind give way.” – Paraphrased Roman physicians (19:20)
• “To produce one ounce of silver... probably also produced 10,000 ounces of lead.” – Re: Roman industry, citing Dr. McConnell (41:50)
• “The magnitude of exposure and the correlated blood lead levels were enough to negatively affect the cognitive function of that population. Yet this is still a far cry from causing the downfall of the Roman Empire.” – Pathologist Amy L. Pyle Ilola (56:08)
• “Single leadedly.” – Noel, on the impossibility of blaming Rome’s fall on just lead (57:03)

---

Summary by Section:

• Intro & Framing: Rome’s fall is a historical puzzle; the “lead theory” is a weird, enduring idea worth closer inspection.
• How Lead Was Used: Rome’s love affair with lead; its many uses and early warnings about its toxicity.
• New Science: Recent ice core studies finally quantify ancient environmental lead pollution; kids were most affected.
• What Was the Real Impact?: Scientific consensus: definitely harmful, but not the prime cause of Rome’s collapse.
• Reflective End: Modern society still struggles with unseen, unintended consequences—history’s lessons endure.

---

Essential Lesson:
Lead definitely played a role in the daily lives—and possibly the minds—of the Romans, but their fall was far more complicated than one toxic substance. The story persists because it’s a perfect example of hindsight, hubris, and the “accidental self-poisoning” that has marked so many moments in civilization.

---

Transcript

[A]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartradio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Pull up your number two pencils because we have one for you. With great thanks to our super producer, Mr. Max Unleaded Williams. I hope. I hope you are unleaded, Max.

[B]

Get the let out, Williams.

[A]

There we go, man.

[C]

I made a straight corn.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

What?

[C]

No, I'm 10% corn.

[B]

I don't understand. I don't understand the correlation joke.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is none other than Mr. Noel Brown. Noel, how are you doing?

[B]

I'm pretty good, man. I'm excited to get the lead out. Remember when they used to. That was like. I think it was sort of a universal radio thing for like a block of Led Zeppelin. They just called it get the. It might have been a local regional thing for me, but for some reason it seems sort of like morning shows with someone called the Gooch, as you like to say. Ben just seems like an old school radio thing.

[A]

Like we're gonna get the lead out this hour on 96X Rock. They do call me Ben Bullen. The rumors are true.

[B]

Who's spreading them rumors about you? I'll get. I'll get him. Let me add them.

[A]

I think it's Fleetwood Mac. Or Flea. Or Flea as well. We're not going to flee from this one. I am a research associate for this episode. No, you and I have been talking about this offline because we used to hang out a lot off air. Folks, we are phenomenally obsessed with this concept. It is a topic that's going to pop up in a darker form on our sister show. Stuff they don't want you to know. You see, fellow ridiculous historians, for centuries upon centuries, some of the smartest historians in all of human experience have debated what exactly led to the fall of the Roman Empire. It's one of the greatest civilizations in all known history.

[B]

What led to it, Ben? Okay, you caught me. Spoiler.

[A]

It's right there.

[B]

Built in.

[A]

You caught me. You caught me.

[C]

The bad joke drum is going to be working overtime this episode.

[B]

It's a feature, not a bug.

[A]

Max. So no, you and I remember the Roman Empire.

[B]

Yeah. Like it was only yesterday. It's almost as though history is repeating itself right now in the world we find ourselves in. Not sure if we can blame lead for that one, though.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. That's true. We'll have to see what future ridiculous historians say.

[D]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

[E]

Everyone deserves to be connected. T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Our networks are coming together bringing more T Mobile coverage all over the country. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% versus Verizon by getting built in benefits they leave out. Check the math@t mobile.com Switch and now T Mobile is available in the US Cellular Store in Pasco. Bigger network the combination of T Mobile and US Cellular's network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage savings versus comparable Verizon plans plus the costs of options, benefits, plan features and taxes and fees vary. Savings with three plus lines include third free line free via monthly bill credits Credit stop if you cancel any lines. Qualifying credit required.

[F]

You're a pro at running your life. At committing to your workout. At showing up every day at Bombas we're pros too. Pros at making socks. Our sport assortment has specialized socks for whatever sport you're committed to running, hiking, golf, Pilates and so much more. Made with sweat, wicking yarns, blister fighting details and targeted art support. Bombas Sport is pro level socks from the Pros of Socks. For another pro you go to bombus.com audio and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's bombus.com and use code Audio Support

[G]

for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this

[H]

is Bethany Frankel from Just Be with Bethany Frankel. Let me be blunt. Most dog food is junk. It just is. And I'm not feeding junk to Biggie and Smalls that is why they eat just food for dogs. It's real, 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize, not mystery pellets pretending to be healthy. And once I switched, the difference was obvious. Better digestion, better skin, more energy. Dogs who actually feel good instead of just surviving dinner. Here's the thing. You care about quality. You make an intentional choice to be healthy. So why are you gambling with your dog's health? So let's think about our furry babies. Go to justfoodfordogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code. Just try it. Because once you see the difference, you're not going back.

[I]

If you're feeling off fatigue, mood changes, skin shifts. Yet your labs say everything's normal. You're not alone. Meet Oestra from Inner Balance. The first all in one prescription strength bioidentical hormone cream that's natural and effective and only takes one drop, 10 seconds a day. Oester replaces five to six products women typically use to treat symptoms and is third party tested to ensure the highest quality. Visit innerbalance.com today to start feeling like yourself again. That's innerbalance.com.

[A]

We know it is impossible to overestimate just how much of an impact this empire made on the rest of the world up to the present day. Noel, we've got a joke in here for you, bro. What factors contributed to the fall of the Roman Empire as far as mainstream history is concerned?

[B]

Oh, Ben, are you talking about my favorite food?

[A]

What is your favorite food, Noel?

[B]

Cosmic gumbo, of course.

[A]

Oh, yeah, we used to say that on set. We used to say it's a cosmic gumbo.

[B]

It's a real cosmic gumbo. Shout out to Santa Claus and his acting career. Also shout out and rip to Biff Whiff. I think youk Should Leave Fame. The gentleman who portrayed Santa in that skin. He passed away last year and really seemed like a lovely dude. As a human person and obviously a delight in various characters on the Tim Robinson vehicle. I think you should.

[A]

Shirt brother. Rip Shirt brothers.

[B]

Yeah. Oh. With that amazing song. I'm sorry. Not to get off the rails too hard, but one thing I think we both love about that show is that it has emotional gravitas. Like there are. There are sketches, quote unquote in it that like pull at your heartstrings. And that is one with our buddy Biff Wiff.

[A]

I used to be a piece of.

[B]

I know.

[A]

You were there.

[B]

Sloppy stakes.

[A]

You were there.

[B]

What is it? What's it?

[A]

Sloppy steaks?

[B]

No, but what's the song.

[A]

Like, like Dangerous Nights.

[B]

Dangerous Nights, thank you very much. Which is Vampire Weekend, by the way. I think you knew that. But that band, there's a lot of hidden Easter egg band performances in there. And the Shirt Brothers song. Equally emotionally devastating is the band Turnstile.

[A]

That's right. What if there are no rules? Which people started asking at the fall of the Roman Empire? Generally, yeah. Yeah, generally, I'm not proud of it, but I'm not regretful.

[B]

Then if there was an award for Segways, you would at least be on the short list to get it.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you.

[B]

Middle of it, Middle of it. Easily.

[A]

Okay. I'm here in top 15, and I appreciate you. So, generally, the boffins in the ivory towers of history will tell you there was, again, an unpleasant cosmic gumbo of a lot of different factors that led to the decline of the Roman Empire. Military losses against what they called barbarians, which is also kind of a dumb thing. Do we want to be etymology nerds about barbarians?

[B]

Do we want to be retroactively? I think we are, Ben. I think we are. And we should lean into it this very moment.

[A]

So barbarian was a term aside from Conan the Barbarian, but barbarian was a term wherein the Roman Empire was exercising prejudice against people who spoke different languages. Bar Bar was like their Blah Blah Bay bar. So they were calling them the Elephant Blood Larians.

[B]

Oh, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Aren't these the individuals that occupied the Barbary coast, or is that different?

[A]

Well, there were blah, blah about it.

[B]

Okay. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[A]

Yes.

[J]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. People selling people to people.

[B]

My grandfather started this company with one rickety slave ship and a mott. People selling people to people. We're just hot on the classic comedy at the top of this show today.

[A]

Thursday is our Friday.

[B]

We're also exhibiting some big Thursday energy. And to your point, Ben, Thursday is indeed our Friday.

[A]

Yeah. Other people will tell you that political corruption contributed to the fall of the Roman Empire. Economic woes, internal strife, all the hits, you know, all the good ones, all the slow jazz, all the usual suspects. But what if there was another factor? And, Noel, you and I have been talking about this for more than five years now. I think we've been obsessed with this 100%, Ben.

[B]

And as you mentioned on our sister show, stuff, they don't want you to know, it's absolute red meat. But we do love a crossover, Ben, and this is absolutely one of those ones that fits right in the sweet spot of the Venn diagram between our two shows. Sorry I had to Say that so emphatically. I just felt very strongly about it.

[A]

I liked it. I liked it. When you do the news voice. What if lead exposure, the exposure to the chemical lead number 82 PB on the periodic table. What if that was part of the fall of the Roman Empire? As ridiculous as it sounds, there is a surprising amount of heft to this argument. So first off, as we're getting into this, Noel. And then you, Max. What do we think of as Americans when we hear the word lead? When you hear lead, what's the first image that pops in your mind?

[B]

Get the lead out. Block a Led Zeppelin, obviously, as previously mentioned. No, it's true. I mean, we think of maybe unleaded gasoline. The fact that they still have to say that, it's always a little funny.

[A]

I'm so irritated by that one.

[B]

It's pretty funny.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, we'll get back to that one. Max, what about you? What do you think?

[C]

I mean, this is dark, but this is honestly where I go as Michigan. Or I think of Flint, Michigan.

[A]

You think of Flint, Michigan pipes. Yeah, those pipes. Those pipes. Some of us may be thinking of old school number two pencils, etc. They contain graphite and clay. They never actually contain lead. That's something a bunch of people fell for. But I love what you're pointing out there. No, the idea of unleaded gas. And I forgot to tell you, dude, I was on an old plane recently. Recently a plane that was so old

[B]

that still had ashtrays on the armor.

[A]

It had ashtrays in the bathroom. My guy.

[B]

Little flippy boys.

[A]

Yeah, little flippy boys. Right under the sign that says non smoking flight. And I am still mystified by America's love of unnecessary signage. Unleaded gas for real now in 2026, drug free school zone. Where is the cool school, Ben?

[B]

You say that, but you know there's somebody who's gonna rip a dart on a flight if it weren't for that flashing sign.

[A]

I bet you're right. Yeah, we.

[B]

We rely on signage here in the United States because we're not very smart.

[A]

Also largely because of lead poison. Nice. Also, a lot of our road signage is super neggy. It's super mad at you and authoritarian. The nicest road sign sign I've ever seen is Keep going, dude.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

Worst.

[B]

I mean, if you go to Germany, for example, the crosswalk signs are these lovely little fellas called the Amfelmann. You know, they're not aggressive at all. They're like little cartoon characters just Going for a stroll.

[A]

There you are. And you can join them too. Now, lead is still used in some fuel products today, mainly small engine planes here in the States. But you're. You're not going to run into it at your local gas station. You'll just see a bunch of signs that say unleaded gas. And if you ask them to sell you gas with lead in it because you're a weird person or you've landed your plane in the local street, you may be surprised that they do not indeed sell leaded gasoline. Because the U.S. finally, like so many other empires, the U.S. fell in love with lead. And then they finally figured out that stuff will kill you. Do you remember a while back we were doing this series on inventors who died by their own inventions and we mentioned this guy named Tommy.

[B]

How could I Forget? Thomas Midgley Jr. Big reason for the lead craze.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As we mentioned in that previous episode, our pal old Tommy figured out that the compound tetraethyl lead could be added to gasoline in order to prevent that knock, knock, knocking on heaven's door coming from your automobile's engine. Though this ended up, of course, having terrible consequences for the environment. He did, however, receive numerous medals for his work as a chemical company executive and researcher. But it wasn't until much, much later the public finally figured out that maybe these awards were not warranted. Yeah, did get some damage.

[A]

Yeah. Here endeth the side notes, fellow ridiculous historians. Now, aside from gas, Flint, Michigan and pencils lead, what is it good for?

[B]

Absolutely some things.

[A]

Several things.

[B]

And let's please not forget Led Zeppelin, guys. Let's please not forget Led Zeppelin. It is a legitimate element. It's on the table with all the elements. Number 82 on the periodic table. What's the. What's the abbreviation? PB thought so. It's one of those weird ones that are related to Latin or something, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Number 82 on the periodic table with a bullet but on weight basis. Lead has nearly the same abundance in Earth's crust as another popular element, maybe more popular in the past, much like its weight cousin, tin. We don't see tin nearly as much as we used to. Used to be super, super abundant in terms of manufacturing and stuff. So in addition to having a low melting point, being plentiful and extremely malleable, it is also easy to extract from the ground.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Which means that human beings have been aware of lead and have been working with lead for a long, long time. You might be as surprised as we were, folks to learn that lead Is even mentioned in the Bible. Not once, but multiple times.

[B]

What was the last thing that we dropped that was mentioned in the Bible? That was a little unexpected. It came up recently. It's okay if you don't remember. All I remember is that this is the second time it's come up in a week or two. We'll figure that out and get right back to you folks. Or hey, let us know. Do our jobs for us. The Babylonians used lead as plating material for recording inscriptions. You know, literally. Yeah. Like a medium for like, 100%. Thanks, Ben. Yep. Great. Great sound cue. The Romans used it for all kinds of stuff.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. They must add a Billy Mays or some very persuasive character because, you know, if you picture the infomercial, it's like, hi, I'm Beninitis and Lowell Nikis and Maxima Gaddish. Maxima Gadish. All right, we'll keep it. We're excited to talk to you, Ancient Rome, about a miracle substance. We call it lead. You can use it in tablets. You can use it in pipes, you can make coins.

[B]

I mean, it ain't like we don't have somewhat of an equivalent in modern history with asbestos.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. That's a great observation.

[B]

It was sold as, like, a miracle substance that could be used for all kinds of stuff to keep it from, you know, catching on fire.

[A]

Kind of similar to plastic.

[B]

We're still rocking that one.

[A]

Shout out to bodies. Yeah. We know that people even used a derivative of lead, what they called white lead, as a decorative pigment. Lead was in everything in ancient Rome. Lead was treated the way people treat plastic today or asbestos, as you said, through the, you know, earlier part of the 20th century. And the thing is, it's a devil's bargain. It's a pyrrhic victory, because in addition to being very, very useful, lead is also carved, opportunistly toxic. It is so bad for you. It is bad for everyone. It's not like gluten, where some people are fine with it. It is bad for every single living thing, full stop.

[B]

Lead exposure can cause serious health issues, particularly in small children when exposed to it at a young age, causing developmental delays, learning difficulties or disabilities, damage to the brain and the nervous system. Those, of course, can, you know, happen to anybody. But specifically in those very, very important formative years, they can have very specific issues when young people are exposed to it.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Even low levels of lead can harm you. We do know that the ancient Romans appeared to be aware of lead poisoning at least by the time of Augustus Caesar. Not Julius Caesar, the other one. We know that physicians would literally write stuff like lead makes the mind give way.

[B]

That's a pretty cool slogan.

[A]

Yeah. Not as a compliment though. That's way we had to clarify.

[B]

No, it's true. Still, they didn't really have any particularly good notion of the long term ramifications. Ben, you point out in the doc here that lead is a bit of an imposter because it's so similar to calcium that human cells take it on instead of calc calcium, which is of course needed to fortify the bones and other positive health effects. So a perfect recipe for disaster there. And it didn't take too long before a big old chunk of the Roman population started to take on massive amounts of lead into their bodies.

[A]

They sure did. Noel. This episode of Ridiculous History is brought to you by Pesto.

[B]

Ben, Here in Atlanta, we've been experiencing spring having sprung. We got warmer weather. But I think while we both love that, we're both also a little bit frustrated by the creepy crawly critters that like it too.

[A]

The bugs love it. The people not so much. So our question for you is, have your bugs been MIA since you sprayed Pesty? Look folks, let's be honest. Other pest control companies are going to charge you hundreds of bugs, but this is a DIY kit, so that means there are no strangers in your house. There are no, you know, tedious appointments to make time for. It's a win win.

[B]

That's right. And Pesti is also kid and pet friendly. The pesticides they ship are fully registered and have been used in hospitals and schools all over the country. Get bugs out of your house with Pesti.

[A]

Go to pesti.comhistory for an extra 10% off your order.

[B]

That's P-E-S-T-I-E.comhistory for an extra 10 percent off.

[K]

It's tax season and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialist will fix it. Backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock Identity identity theft protection. For tax season and beyond, visit lifelock.com iheart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] iheart terms apply.

[J]

This is Rob Gronkowski from Dudes on Dudes with Gronk and Jules 4 years Everyone thought Verizon had the best network. Want to know why? Because they did. But guess what? It those days are over. The data says it all. Based on hundreds of millions of real world tests. The experts at OOKLA Speed Test have spoken. T Mobile is the best mobile network in America. T Mobile's network has the most advanced 5G, the most towers and their signal reaches farther than ever. And don't forget the largest satellite to mobile network. Basically, with T Mobile's network you're connected, well, pretty much wherever. T Mobile's way ahead today and they will be for years to come. So if you're ready to stay connected wherever life takes you, head over to your local store or t mobile.com to switch to the best network T Mobile has the best mobile network in the U. S Based on analysis by Oklahoma of speed test intelligence data 2H 2025 T satellite available with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky. Included with experience beyond or $10 per month. Auto renews monthly. Cancel anytime.

[G]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, abilities completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment, recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this

[H]

is Bethany Frankel from Just Be with Bethany Frankel. Most dog food is marketing, not nutrition. That is why Biggie and Smalls eat just food for dogs. Real 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize. And yes, I do see the difference. Better digestion, healthier skin, more energy, dogs that feel better. My babies, if you've been on the fence about switching, stop overthinking it. What's more important than your furry babies and their health? Go to justfoodfordogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code needed. Just try it it.

[A]

This leads us to the grand theory, the concept that lead exposure and poisoning contributed to the fall of the Roman Empire. So the idea of this poisoning is actually pretty old. The theory dates back to the 1800s. Historians were looking around at all the stuff that Romans used containing lead, and they started looking at cutlery, plates, tableware, and they said, okay, ancient Romans used lead utensils, right. They sometimes had lead plates, cooking implements.

[B]

Right. And we're talking utensils, like things that, you know, you put in your mouth a lot.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. But it turns out this theory was a of good intent. They were asking the right questions. But it turns out that most ancient Romans were not very frequently using lead utensils because that was more for the fancy pants part of the socioeconomic pyramid.

[B]

For sure. It would appear they were much more likely to have used wooden utensils and tableware.

[A]

And if you're super duper wealthy, you're using gilded tableware or silver, or you're using glass plates. But the issue is, if people are using lead tableware at this time, they're going to tend to be from the upper crust of society. So it's possible that the leaders of the Roman Empire got more of a dose of lead than most people.

[B]

No mad king syndrome, right? Maybe we'll get to it. Also, surely a lot of the proletariat were using like, you know, pottery. Yeah.

[A]

Yep. Nope, That's a great point. So that enamel or those decorative pigments would also be a vector for lead exposure. If we go back to the 1960s, we see folks like S.C. gilfilan, who picked up this idea of lead poisoning and the fall of Rome and ran with it. He was so into this that 1965 he published an article called In a Burst of Creativity, Lead Poisoning and the Fall of Rome. Also an excellent emo Band, also an excellent emo band. They've got just one album from 1993, but we think they're gonna come back.

[B]

I think so too. They'll be opening for My Chemical Romance on tour before you know it. So this piece or paper, I guess. It was argued that the aristocracy's use of lead cookware and lead infused win led to infertility and cognitive decline among the hoi. No, not the hoi polloi. The hoi polloi is the lower class. This is the upper crust. So the rulers, not the ruled, were the ones potentially getting dumber as a result of this exposure, which is of course a perfect recipe for revolution.

[A]

Oh yeah, very much so. Because now you can look at your rulers and say, hey, guys, I do think these people might be dumber than us. I'm not trying to be a hot headed revolutionary. I'm just saying whatever these folks are doing that we are not doing is making them kind of dunderheaded.

[B]

Yeah. You mix that with a dose of corrupting power and incest. And incest, it's a real recipe for disaster. Yeah.

[A]

And then we see this theory about lead and the fall of Rome continuing to find interest through the next few decades. People like the geochemist Jerome Nuragu, they added gout to the mix. Gout? Yeah, gout.

[B]

Just a little sprinkling of gout for fun.

[A]

Just a little bit of gout as a treat.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it is historically in some of these accounts associated with lead poisoning. This geochemist mentioned the following. He said, hey, maybe all the rich folks in ancient Rome have having gout was due to all that lead and the stuff that they drank and perhaps all the potted meat that they were consuming. That's me. That's my take.

[A]

Yeah. And to explain what we're talking about with lead as a sweetener, ancient Romans used something they called sapa, sugar of lead as a preservative and a sweetening agent in wine. So they would boil this syrup in these lead pots and it would make a sweet flavor and then they would, you know, step on the wine with it a little bit. I think step on is a drug term, but you know, I'm saying they would dilute it, the wine with this stuff. It would lead to chronic lead poisoning. It would cause infertility, dementia, and of course, gout. Because your wine tastes sweet, but you're paying for it.

[B]

Oh, for sure. However, a lot of this was more or less various well intentioned forms of speculation. There was not the technological means to gather concrete quantitative data regarding These theories. So they were essentially just smart dudes making pretty smart guesses. However, this all changed very recently. In fact, just last year. And this is where this came up on Something I Don't Want yout to know in our weekly strange news segment. The Roman lead fall theory is in fact back in a big way, Though not the way you might think.

[A]

Yes, we are very well adjusted entities, so we definitely don't stay up late at night texting each other weird theories like this. I am lying. We do. So in 2025, there was a report. No, you remember, that got you and our pal Matt, myself very excited. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Led by a guy named Professor Joseph McConnell found that people of Rome. They were able to prove it for the first time that people of Rome were ingesting lead on a. Beat me here, Max. On a bonkers level.

[B]

Yeah, like on purpose.

[C]

Beep.

[B]

It was a feature, not a bug, as I like to say, as I'm wont to say. They were in fact, using a substance that was combined with lead. In fact, lead acetate. Not just to sweeten their wine through the vessels that it was being held in, but just putting it straight up in there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To just make it a little sweeter. Give it that lead that, that, that, that lead umami that we all crave.

[A]

Like a mixer in a cocktail, I guess. Yeah.

[B]

A little bit of bitters in there. Just a little dash of lead. Right, right. Yeah.

[A]

I'll have my pinot straight up with some lead. Yeah.

[B]

Dirty, please. Very, very dirty.

[A]

And this practice of using lead acetate in wine continued well after the fall of the empire. By the way, we do have to give some admiration to the Romans. They had an impressively sophisticated aqueduct system, which I think a lot of modern people forget. The catch is the caveat is here that their aqueduct system used lead pipes because plumbers of the time loved lead. It's malleable, Right. It doesn't take that much to heat it. And form also leeches into everything. So we made pipes. Well, but we made pipes out of bad material. The big reveal from this study is that Romans were also breathing in huge amounts of lead through the air from silver mining and smelting. It was like lead at this time. You guys was like Teenage mutant ninja turtles in the 1990s. You couldn't get away from this stuff. Sorry. I still got the turtles on the bridge.

[B]

Where did that. That came up recently too. We'd be talking about pizza, of course. Favorite turtles. And I think we opened the discussion yesterday to the entire turtles universe, which I wasn't given the option to do when posed with this question initially. So I would be Krang, or the big robot body that houses krang.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, you know that we have sort of voluntold Max to get on board with a tmnt lore. Max, thanks for playing along. We also, Max is popping back on. Oh, what'd you do? What was that hand signal?

[C]

Just this. Okay, okay, I'm on board.

[A]

I thought you were doing that cool hand signal from big trouble in little china. Do you remember that one? This one like that? No, I see what you're doing. We're an audio show. So it is true to your point, Noel, about the danger of lead exposure to children? It's true that this toxic substance polluting the air probably got into children's blood. It leads to what these researchers call a widespread cognitive decline.

[B]

Right. With researchers concluding that lead poisoning, or exposure, rather, from the air alone, may well have caused an estimated 2.5 to 3 point drop in IQs throughout the entirety of the empire. Just really quickly reframe the question here that we posed at the top, which is a complex one. Did lead exposure cause the fall of the Roman empire? Okay, right. Putting that one back out there. So again, we're in a similar boat here, not necessarily with lead poisoning, but with things like social media and AI. We know that that stuff is absolutely on a long enough timeline going to cause significant declines in iq.

[A]

Yeah. And stay tuned for our upcoming episode on whether IQ tests are malarkey. But I love that point there, Noel, because modern civilizations are not that different from ancient ones. The researchers in this study in particular, they say their findings represent the first documented example of human caused industrial pollution in all of of history. And the way they figured this out, it kind of ties into that episode we did a few years back, about the worst year in history. Do you remember that one?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It was the one where all the

[A]

real bad stuff happened. Right? Yeah. A lot of plagues. A lot of plagues.

[B]

It was plagues. It was weather stuff. It was bad times.

[A]

Yeah. Very plague forward with notes of natural disaster. Right. Had a little bit of lead for fun.

[B]

So.

[A]

So these folks did something fascinating. They went to Greenland and Russia and they started hunting ice core samples. And this was really cool because before this study even kicked off, the scientists in those areas had spent decades and decades using these specially designed large drills to go through ice sheets in the arctic. And they would come up with these long, basically ice noodles, Solid ice noodles, like 11,000ft in length.

[B]

It's pretty cool the way they store those too. Like they have to store those.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I don't know if you guys saw that kind of not that great season of True Detective. I guess none of them have been that great.

[A]

After the Night Country.

[B]

Night country, which it was cool for a minute, but it ended really weird and not good.

[A]

I don't think it was. I don't think it was originally part of the True Detective universe.

[C]

Correct.

[B]

I think the third season was pretty good. Similar flavor to the first one.

[A]

Or a character study.

[B]

Yeah, some people are real apologists for the second season. I just remember some of the dialogue being like, utterly cringe, but I need to go back and revisit it. But that season that I'm talking about in Alaska involved ice core studies and research stations and all of that. So the thing that's cool about ice cores is it's like a time capsule. You can look down through these massively long ice noodles as you put it in and see what happened in the past based on layers of material that have been deposited and then covered over and then, et cetera. You can see what was going on in the environment at the time. And guessing these were full of a lot of lead, right?

[A]

Yeah. It's kind of like dendocronology, the science of reading tree rings or the art of reading tree rings.

[B]

Or phrenology. Wait.

[F]

No.

[A]

Similar intention, but maybe not in accuracy.

[B]

Phrenology.

[A]

Noel, can just. For anybody who somehow doesn't know, can you give us like a quick three sentence summation on what phrenology is?

[B]

Not good.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

No, there's this notion that you could like figure out someone's lineage, I guess, through the bumps on their head. And it was typically harnessed in order to other folks from different parts of the world, not the, you know, European experience of things. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like saying by studying the bumps on an African American's head, for example, you could see that they were inferior.

[A]

And they got super weird with phrenology to the point where they were saying things like, oh, the bump on this back part of the ear. Right ear, right behind the ear, indicates this person has Welsh heritage, which means they are a thief and a gambler.

[B]

That was very good.

[A]

That's kind of how they.

[B]

No, no, no question about it. And it was also one of those pseudosciences, flim flam quackery kind of things that could be molded to the. The very nefarious purposes of whoever was wielding it.

[A]

So Dendo chronology is different from this, from Phrenology, which is a BS Science, and I love that aside, we know how the study went, because if we go to articles like the Smithsonian in 2025, we see the journalist Sarah Kuta puts it this way. She explains why looking at these ice noodles is so important.

[B]

Sarah Kuda, Correct. She says as snowflakes fall, they capture chemicals and particles from the air. When the snow touches down in the Arctic, it compresses and solidifies into thin layers of ice with those chemicals and particles still trapped inside. By studying these layers, scientists can effectively peer back in time. She said it way smarter than I did, but the gist is there, and it remains true. So the team looked at layers of Arctic ice that corresponded to between 500 BCE and 600 CE. In examining those, they saw increase increased levels of lead pollution kind of focused around a particular year, 15 BCE, which of course, lines up with the early years of the Roman Empire. And then they also saw that those lead levels remained high until 180 CE. Some of us might remember that date from history class. The end of what we call the PAX Romana, the 200ish year height of the Roman Empire.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Piece of Rome.

[A]

Yeah, the glory that was Rome. This is a crazy period in history. It's an era of, for the time, unprecedented prosperity. So as a result, the Roman powers that be were naturally making a lot of currency because they didn't have, you know, electronic debit cards or chip and pen. So that meant they had to do a lot of mining. That meant they had to smelt a lot of silver. And both of those endeavors send huge amounts of lead into the atmosphere. Speaking to the New York Times, Catherine Corney In 2025, Dr. McConnell from this study said, you know, to produce one ounce of silver at this time, the Romans probably also produced something like 10,000 ounces of lead. And they didn't have, you know, an EP. They didn't have some kind of regulatory body saying, hey, stop putting that crap in the water.

[B]

Yeah, knock it off.

[A]

Yeah, hey, you guys, knock it off. So they look at, like you're saying these ice samples, and they find these levels of lead. This is concrete evidence that lead was in the air. They started working backward and they said, okay, if we know how much we can find in the ice from that time, we can estimate how much lead the Romans must have just been into the atmosphere.

[B]

Well, we can tell you atmospheric models suggest that's between 3,300 and 4,600 tons of lead being released each year during the Pax Romana. That's a lot of lead, Ben. That's more than more than 4,000 tons a year for around 200 years.

[A]

Yeah, that's a lot of lead. And the pollution was naturally worse in areas where there was a mining operation or smelting industries. It was reaching concentrations of 150 nanograms per cubic meter of air. So it's very rank in there lead wise. Also, air knows no terrestrial borders. Air is not a citizen of any government.

[B]

So it just flows, man.

[A]

It just goes with the flow. It's kind of a cosmic gumbo.

[B]

It is a little bit of a cosmic gumbo. It's true.

[J]

This is Rob Gronkowski from Dudes on Dudes with Gronk and Jules four years, everyone thought Verizon had the best network. Want to know why? Because they did. But guess what? Those days are over. The data says it all. Based on hundreds of millions of real world 10 test the experts at Ookla Speed Test have spoken. T Mobile is the best mobile network in America. T Mobile's network has the most advanced 5G, the most towers and their signal reaches farther than ever. And don't forget the largest satellite to mobile network. Basically with T Mobile's network you're connected, well, pretty much wherever. T Mobile's way ahead today and they will be for years to come. So if you're ready to stay connected wherever life takes you, head over to your local store or t mobile.com to switch to the best network. T Mobile has the best mobile Network in the US based on analysis by Ookla of speed test intelligence data 2H 2025 T satellite available with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the US US where you can see the sky included with experience beyond or $10 per month. Auto renews monthly cancel anytime.

[G]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this

[H]

is Bethenny Frankel from Just Be with Bethenny Frankel. Let me be blunt. Most dog food is junk. It just is. And I'm not feeding junk to Biggie and Smalls. That is why they eat just food me for dogs. It's real 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize, not mystery pellets pretending to be healthy. And once I switched, the difference was obvious. Better digestion, better skin, more energy. Dogs who actually feel good instead of just surviving dinner. Here's the thing. You care about quality. You make an intentional choice to be healthy. So why are you gambling with your dog's health? So let's think about our furry babies. Go to justfood for dogs.com right now and get 50% off your first buy. No code. Just try it. Because once you see the difference, you're not going back.

[I]

If you're feeling off fatigue, mood changes, skin shifts, yet your labs say everything's normal. You're not alone. Meet Oestra from Inner Balance, the first all in one prescription strength bioidentical hormone cream that's natural and effective and only takes one drop, 10 seconds a day. Oester replaces five to six products women typically use to treat symptoms and is third party tested to ensure the highest quality. Visit innerbalance.com today to start feeling like yourself again. That's innerbalance.com you ever get the feeling

[L]

the city walls closing in the concrete jungle suffocating your soul? You crave wide open spaces, the chance to connect with nature, maybe chase some elk, fish a private stream. Well, listen up. There's a whole world out there and finding your own piece of it just got easy. Head over to land.com they've got ranches, forest, mountains, you name it. Search by acreage, location, the kind of hunting or fishing you dream of. Land.com it's where the adventure begins.

[B]

We're not saying that these folks were purposefully tainting everything in the same way. We're not saying that that like microplastics were purposely done. It's just another example of people either not knowing what the long term consequences of things would be. There might be a Tad of not caring in the microplastics of it all. But it's not necessarily, you know, utterly malicious for the purposes of poisoning the population. Like on purpose.

[A]

Yeah, it's not a thing.

[B]

Here I am apologizing, being an apologist for the, for the plastics industry. What am I doing here?

[A]

No, but it's not a thing where the average person or even the average manufacturer would have noticed damaging potential on the way. Right. You're walking by a mine and you might think, ah, the air's bad, it smells bad. But you're not thinking, oh, this is making me dumber. The researchers use more modern data to get a ballpark picture of how much lead would have built up in the blood of ancient Roman children. And from then there they attempted to extrapolate how those accumulations might have affected the IQ of those kids. Do it for the kids. Right, but why focus on children, Noel? Why focus on the kids? Is it like a wooten thing?

[B]

We believe the children are our future because they literally are.

[A]

They literally are.

[B]

It's a big part of the motivation of this research to study and tap tackle current problems related to chemical exposure of children. Children are especially vulnerable, as we said, to lead exposure as their brains are yet to develop fully. Have yet to develop fully, as well as their body and various organs, of course. Various organs, the body. And today we know that no amount of lead exposure at all is safe for kids. In addition to some of those developmental delays that we were speaking of, potential to lower iq, lead accumulation in the bodies of children can lead to slowed down physical growth conditions like anemia, hyperactivity, hearing problems and behavioral and learning problems.

[A]

Yeah, this is serious stuff. And so our researchers find that children during the pox Romana likely Watch the pox, right? Yeah. They likely had an extra 2.4 micrograms of lead per deciliter of blood just from the air pollution. So if they combine that with research on the more recent lead exposed populations, you see a drop in IQ that we alluded to earlier, somewhere between 2.5 and 3 points. So everybody according to IQ test gets a little bit dumber. But wait, as ancient Roman Billy Mays was what to say? There's more. This is just the exposure from the end air. That's what they study. They're not studying all the other sources.

[B]

100%, Ben. So for the average Roman kid living and ostensibly doing okay during the pox, your life would have been absolutely chock full chock o block riddled, as you like to say, Ben, with lead. And weirdly Enough. The higher you were in the echelons of society, the more likely you were to have multiple sources of lead poison poisoning.

[A]

You've got the indoor plumbing. Right.

[B]

You've got the fancy plates, the sweetening of the booze.

[A]

Sweet wine. Yeah.

[B]

And so sweet berry wine.

[A]

Right, right. And so it's tricky to guess just how high these levels get when we factor in, as you said, the wine, the pipes, the decorations and so on. For a comparison to Max's earlier Note about Flint, Michigan, American children have had about 15 micrograms of lead per deciliter of blood during the 1970s. That's before lead paint and leaded gasoline got banned. That likely. Different research. This is interesting. This shows us a scary thing about Rome. Different research from kids around the 1970s in the US estimate those US kids getting exposed to lead at this point in history experienced a hard nine point drop in their iq. Again, please check out stuff they don't want you to know's upcoming episode where we dive deep into the dark side of that one.

[B]

A hundred percent, Ben. And I think this brings us up to the present, at least in terms of this type of research. And we have a bit of an update. We can all certainly agree that all of this stuff was bad news for ancient Rome in terms of the higher ups ability to govern, all of that kind of stuff. The question then though becomes is this enough to be a top five candidate for what caused the fall, the actual fall of the Roman Empire? And I think the answer there is probably not.

[A]

It's a bit of a stretch, right? I mean, is it good enough to get shortlisted? We know it happens, but there's something we wish people would mention more often in these conversations. IQ tests are far from perfect. We're talking about this off air.

[B]

We're going to be talking about it on an episode.

[A]

Yeah. Yes sir, we are. Shout out to our buddy Alfred Binet. He had a good idea, he had noble intent. But the testing itself, the structure of it, the methodology of how it was derived, it is controversial because of things like cultural bias reduction, limited predictive validity, which is going to be familiar to all our fellow honors students. Right. You're the smartest kid in second grade. Why are you not the President?

[B]

Well, not to mention something that we'll talk about much more in depth and give some personal insights into when we do the IQ episode. But some people just don't do well with timed tests and it can be a pretty shoddy metric for actual, you know, life skills.

[A]

Yeah. The fact that some of Earth's smartest human beings just get freaked the heck out when they have to take a test. We have all been there. Humans also will add this, still don't really understand how to define intelligence, much less how to measure it. So that's our first badger in the big bag of problems. And there's another problem with the proposition of less leading to the fall of the Roman Empire. Correct.

[B]

Even if we accept the validity, the relative validity of IQ testing and measurement based on the numbers derived from some of these studies, experts aren't in agreement or at least aren't universally persuaded that a provable 2.5 to 3 point drop in IQ was enough to do the thing to affect the entire population. And would that be enough to be a sole factor in the kind of decline that we're measuring here of an entire society?

[A]

Yeah, you know, I got lost a little bit, guys, because I was trying to remember the band that made a really anomalous song for them. The decline by no fx. Do you remember that? It's like a 20 minute song.

[B]

Oh, no, no, I don't. I just remember we're the Bruise sporting anti swastika tattoos.

[A]

Yes. Fat Mike, Shout out.

[C]

Let's jump in here. I saw one of my first concerts I ever saw was no Effects at the Old Masquerade. And they opened the concert by playing the Decline.

[A]

They opened the concert with that one.

[C]

It was pretty cool. It was like really cool way to start a concert.

[A]

It's like a short film.

[C]

They played a shorter version of like 15 minutes and it was like, oh man, this concert's gonna be awesome. And then they just spent the rest of the time talking about. I think they played like six songs after that and talked about strip clubs for like half an hour.

[A]

May 22 get from me to you. The Decline. Yes, we know that there's pushback on this theory. You'll speak to folks like the pathologist Amy L. Pyle Ilola speaking with new scientists, this pathologist said the magnitude of exposure and the correlated blood lead levels were enough to negatively affect the cognitive function of that population. Yet this is still a far cry from causing the downfall of the Roman Empire. So this pathologist is saying, okay, yeah, we can acknowledge that everybody probably got a little bit dumber.

[B]

A little not good. Certainly not.

[A]

But not enough to lead to the fall of one of history's biggest empires.

[B]

Single leadedly.

[A]

Single leadedly. Yes, just so.

[B]

And other experts do agree. We've got Caleb Finch, a neurobiologist at the University of Southern California who told Science is you Know science. Taylor Mitchell Brown of Science. He said the conclusion of widespread cognitive Decline from an estimated 3 IQ point decrease does not match the huge productivity of the Roman Empire when lead production was maximal. We've mentioned that, of course, and given props where props are due, these aqueducts, the architectural features that they revolutionized, various things that were done when the lead was flowing.

[A]

Yeah. Another point on that topic is consider folks, how complicated it is for you to order a thing now with an ubiquitous Internet. Consider how tricky it can be to order your own stuff now. These folks were still, despite lead exposure, they were more than clever enough to figure out global trade networks, networks as far away as parts of East Asia with no online access, no gps, no AI assisted agents.

[B]

I think one could argue that the things that we mentioned at the top of the show that we're contending with as a population would likely lead to more of a malaise and social decline than lead did for the Romans. Do you think people were smarter back then though?

[A]

I think the.

[B]

Again, we know it's tough to measure this as a bit of an amorphous concept. They were certainly craftier and they had to get it done. You know, I don't know.

[A]

I wonder about this. I think people are playing life on a harder difficulty mode. So you would be more likely to be weeded out if you were not competent.

[B]

And you're stretching those life muscles a lot harder than we have to.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. You're walking a lot more, you're working out a lot more. You're exposed to many more old school

[B]

pathogens, problem solving a lot more.

[A]

Yeah. And you have to worry about where you can sleep safely, where you can eat, figuring out if the water is going to kill you. Yeah, it was harder back then in a lot of ways. But we still have our speed bumps and obstacles to civilization today. We've had a lot of fun in today's episode. We hope you have as well.

[B]

Here's a question though, real quick. Can you build lead structures in Civ 6?

[A]

That's where we get to one of our last questions, which is about the best wonder of the world for the Roman Empire. And here we go to you, Max, in Civilization, the game, the franchise by Sid Meier, the best one to build

[C]

for the Roman Empire. You're really just kind of throwing me

[A]

three to the world wolves.

[C]

But the Coliseum, okay, Coliseum is overpowered.

[B]

Absolutely lousy with lead.

[A]

Absolutely lousy with lead. And hopefully you are not lousy with lead. But this gives us some stuff to think about. We can say the hypothesis or the theory often gets overblown in pop culture. But it is pretty tough to look at all this evidence and not think exposure to lead had some kind of influence on ancient Rome. Right? They did something. And if you take nothing else away from this episode, please, fellow ridiculous historians, the next time someone at a bar or on a street corner offers you a tasty dose of lead, just say no.

[B]

Dare to say no to lead.

[A]

Thank you again so much for tuning in, fellow ridiculous historians. Thanks to our Studio Super Producer, Mr. Max no Lead Williams. Max, has this episode persuaded you to finally get off the lead?

[B]

I don't think the condition allows for ingestion of lead.

[A]

Get the lead.

[C]

Actually, oddly enough, it's like one of the seven things I can have.

[B]

I'm not giving up my lead.

[C]

Cage Free lead.

[B]

Let's pry it from Max's cold, dead hands.

[A]

There we go. Big thanks, of course, to Eve's Jeffcoat Chris Vasiotes here in spirit. Just talking with both of them and he Noel Eves had a birthday quite recently.

[B]

She had a birthday. And she also joined forces with the Tennessee pal Dylan Fagan for a really sick yoga meditation sesh that I was not able to get into because it's so exclusive and it's sold out. But I'm looking forward to getting in on the next one. Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quizter Guy loves lead. He loves lead. He rubs it on his bald head. Not true. AJ Bahamas. Jacob the Puzzler.

[A]

Yeah, Dr. Rachel Big Spinach Lance. Also, our compatriots over at Ridiculous Crime. If you dig us, you will love Elizabeth, Zarin and Dave and Noel. Thank you so much for this one. I know we've been cogitating over this for several years now, and I can't wait for everybody to tune into the dark side of let expose on stuff they don't want you to know.

[B]

We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[K]

It's tax season, and by now we're all a bit tired of numbers. But here's an important one you need to hear. $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com iheart Terms apply t Mobile

[A]

has the best plan on the best

[J]

network Just ask Kevin Bacon today.

[A]

Visit this happens virtually everywhere. That's why you need Super Mobile from T Mobile the best plan on the best network letting you run your business from your phone like never before. In moments of high demand, T Mobile's network adapts to put your business connection first.

[J]

Discover [e-mail] best business plan based on

[E]

combination of advanced network performance, coverage layers and security features.

[B]

Best Network based on analysis by Ocular

[E]

speed test intelligence data 18025 Oogle trademarks User license and reprinted with permission Secrets

[D]

Lies Infidelity Disability Seat what happens when the person you love the most turns out not to be who you think they are? Your Sunday nights just got a lot more interesting because the number one hit podcast Betrayal is now a primetime TV show. I implore you to watch Secrets and lies Sundays at 10pm 9 Central on ABC and stream on Disney and Hulu every Sunday. A new story of staggering betrayal.

[H]

This is Bethenny Frankel from from Just Be with Bethenny Frankel. Most dog food is marketing, not nutrition. That is why Biggie and Smalls eat just food for dogs. Real 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize. And yes, I do see the difference. Better digestion, healthier skin, more energy. Dogs that feel better. My babies, if you've been on the fence about switching, stop overthinking. What's more important than your furry babies and their health? Go to justfoodfordogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code needed. Just try it at CVS.

[D]

It matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night. And we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and and here to fill your craving for a tasty and yeah, healthy snack. At cvs, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit [e-mail] or just come by our store. We can't wait to meet you. Store hours vary by location. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.