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B (4:01)

I love the word anthem, though. Again, it's one of those chicken or the egg things. Something being anthemic, you know, means it's kind of epic. And I guess an anthem, a national anthem is meant to be epic. And it also goes back to, you know, they call certain big church pieces anthems, you know, as part of a church service.

A (4:26)

And one of my favorite British insults that I've ever heard, just off the cuff, because we know the British cousins are way better than Americans at insults. I was walking around our old office in Ponce City Market here in the fair metropolis of Atlanta, Georgia, and someone was telling a kind of. I'll. I'll say the guy was being kind of a d about how there was a line for one of the restaurants, and a person working at the restaurant started telling them, you know, okay, the weight's going to be about 25, 30 minutes, something like that. And this British guy that I have never seen before or since, he said, oh, spare me your anthem.

B (5:17)

I don't know that one, Ben. That's good. I'm sure he pulled it off. Yeah, yeah. Maybe he might have coined it that very minute. But, yeah, I guess an anthem is also kind of in that context, sort of something that's a little bit like a saga, you know, like a little wordy, perhaps.

A (5:33)

Propaganda.

B (5:34)

Oh, good points.

A (5:37)

The Greeks have a national anthem that is so long, they don't speak or they don't sing. Most of it. It's got like 158 verses.

B (5:46)

That's another thing about those church anthems that, you know, you have the hymnal, I guess they've got the hymn. But then there's the Anthem, which is like the big kind of showpiece, the centerpiece of the. So many verses.

A (5:57)

So many verses. So many churches. So many verses. Let me stop freestyling and acknowledge our research associate for this episode, Max the Madman Williams or Max Foster Key Williams. We gotta go into it with clear eyes and open minds. If you are listening to this podcast and you're not from the U.S. first off, thank you. Secondly, we know our national anthem

B (6:30)

is

A (6:31)

not the best song.

B (6:33)

And to jump in real quick, just as a research associate on this, I want to come out and say this, that even though these are ridiculous, because especially the backstories in some of these, none of these anthems are bad. Actually, these anthems are pretty awesome in my opinion, especially the third one. The second one's kind of weird, in my opinion.

A (6:48)

Well, they're still all better to sing than the US Anthem. And I don't want to sound unpatriotic, but I'm just thinking of like, no, you're my music guy. So what do you think about the National Anthem? I find it off putting.

B (7:07)

I mean, I'm curious about that, Ben. I don't mind it. I think we maybe get a little overexposed to it. Sort of like Hotel California or something. Maybe I never need to hear it again, but it's sort of foisted upon us, especially if you find yourself attending a sports game. One thing I do love about the National Anthem is really bad, historically bad news of it. Roseanne Barr. There was one recently that was like Fergie, I think historically did a really bad one. Oh, no. And then there was some singer recently that did one that was so bad, I think she was really drunk or something. But now I can't remember the details about. She checked in the rehab like the next day. It was exactly that. Yeah. Okay.

A (7:50)

Came right out drunk.

B (7:52)

National anthem rehab. Country singer Ingrid Andress checked into a rehab facility after a widely criticized intoxicated performance of the National Anthem at the Major League Baseball Home Run Derby. She admitted to being a little tipsy and apologized to fans.

A (8:08)

Okay, well, I haven't heard of her, but wish her well on her journey. As I said, we all do. But also, we have to confess to your point about overexposure there, Noel. The National Anthem of the United States is almost always sung at the beginning of a sports game, right? And everybody, if you're respectful, you stand up, you might take your hat off, you might put one of your hands over your heart, and then you have to just stand there while you hear the rocket's Red glare, or whatever the current. Current public consumption version of it is.

B (8:52)

It is called the Star Spangled Banner, if I'm not mistaken. I had to search for that. I had to dig deep for that one because people usually just call it the national anthem, which is funny. I do love the idea of something being spangled. Nobody uses that word enough.

A (9:07)

I know. Why didn't that British guy who was mad about waiting in line, why didn't he say, spare me your spangled anthem?

B (9:15)

There you go.

A (9:16)

That would have been cooler. But what we found here, thanks to Max, is that national anthems are very much a thing. Some of them are written by terrible people. They're often going to be a product of their ridiculous time. Some are written by lawyers, some are written by musicians, to be fair. And a lot of times, people are cribbing notes and songs from one another and putting their own spin on it, for sure.

B (9:47)

Well, why don't we just jump right in to. This is sort of a listicle episode. Max is fond of those, and we're fond of them as well. So we're gonna start off. First entry in today's episode on ridiculous national anthems that are also good is the Czech Republic and Slovakia, who go in halfsies on a national anthem.

A (10:06)

You will probably still hear people refer to this part of the world as Czechoslovakia. That's because before Slovakia, the Czech Republic split, they were the same country. It's a pretty recent split, actually, about 33 years ago.

B (10:24)

And it's funny, though, because if I'm not mistaken, Ben, oftentimes a shorthand for people from this region is just Slavs or Czechs. Dang it. How do you know which is which? Which are the ones that squat in tracksuits?

A (10:39)

All of them, man.

B (10:40)

Okay.

A (10:41)

All of them do.

B (10:42)

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A (10:47)

Absolutely, because they'll get there. If we go to our friends at Britannica, we'll see that Czechoslovakia was a former country in Central Europe and it took in the land of other previous countries or regions. Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia. I'm falling into Dracula voice. Vlad Tepe, you're in the hand.

B (11:07)

You gotta do that. You got the hand and the voice.

A (11:12)

So the empire of Austria, Hungary collapses in 1918 at the close of World War I. Czechoslovakia gets formed out of all of this, the political union of the Czechs and the Slovaks. After World War I, it worked out kind of, at least in the bigger picture, because these are two different ethnic groups, but they have a lot of similarities in religion, culture and language. And for a while between World War I and World War II, this was no kidding, the most politically stable state in Eastern Europe. Again, the bar is very low.

B (11:55)

Well, yeah, I mean, you often hear this part of the world referred to as a powder keg. And I think it's not too hot of a take to say the history of this part of the world is a little fraught, a little complex. Hence things like Austro Hungary and Czechoslovakia, which now is of course the Czech Republican Slovakia. Strange bedfellows. I think it's because the border, they're all so close. They're all packed in together and yet they all have distinctly unique national identities and cultures. And sometimes. What do they say, Ben? Good fences make good neighbors. And maybe the fences aren't high enough, but these borders are so close. It's like living in one of those condo situation where everything is packed right next to each other and it can sometimes cause beef. Yeah, yeah.

A (12:42)

And I love the point you're making about the combination of these various unique ethnic groups into a larger nation. One thing that's always fascinated me, and probably all of us, is the existence of countries that are named. Two countries like Bosnia and Herzegovina.

B (13:02)

That's right. That's another one. So is Slovakia the same as there's also Yugoslavia? Yes, there was also Yugoslavia, but it's in the region.

A (13:13)

It's in the region. It's not a thing anymore.

B (13:16)

90s that fell apart.

A (13:17)

Yeah, yeah. So if we look at the 1930s, as you said, the powder keg begins to, you know, begins to get a little sparky. There's this guy that hot take I think is kind of a drip, kind of a pill and a fink. His name is Adolf Hitler. He is rising to power in Germany in 1933. And the people of western Czechoslovakia start to buy into his pitch of National Socialism.

B (13:53)

Yep, National Socialism, AKA the Nazis. And with the acquiescence of Britain and France, Hitler did a bit of a power move, lot of a power move, and annexed the German speaking part of Sudeten, which means southern areas of Czechoslovakia in 1938. By 39, Germany had occupied Bohemia and Moravia further and turned the two regions into a protectorate of Germany.

A (14:24)

Right. Which means in this context, these people were under the leadership of Nazi Germany, but they did not have the same rights as German people. Slovakia gets autonomy on paper, but still Germany and German corporations are running the game in 1945. And we'll get to the anthem here. Czechoslovakia is liberated by the Soviet Union, but they're not really liberated. They just have new masters. Because the Soviet Union takes this land into the USSR and they rule there in all but name from 1948 to 1989. We're talking puppet governments, vassal state stuff for sure.

B (15:14)

But the Soviets iron fisted grasp did eventually weaken. And when that dominance broke, the Czechs and the Slovaks began to kind of realize that they didn't particularly care for one another.

A (15:31)

They might not be the best roommates or they might need to Fleetwood Mac style, go their own way.

B (15:38)

Just like Fleetwood Mac did.

A (15:40)

Just like Fleetwood Mac did. Yeah. And so when the communist rule ends due to the Velvet Revolution.

B (15:49)

That sounds nice.

A (15:50)

It does sound nice. It sounds like an album from the 70s.

B (15:53)

Well, there's that band Velvet Revolver that was like a super group from Guns N Roses. What was it? Oh gosh, Tommy Lee was in it, I want to say. And I think the singer was the dude from Stone Temple Pilots.

A (16:06)

I'm thinking of Velvet Underground.

B (16:08)

Velvet Underground, Much, much superior group to Velvet Revolver. But we're talking about the Velvet Revolution, which. Sorry, it just sounds really soft. They had some serious disagreements that escalate.

A (16:23)

Yeah, the Slovak part of the population is saying, you guys gotta stop privatizing everything, you dirty Czechs. And they have these parliamentary elections in June of 1992 that really put a spotlight on these stark political differences. Eventually, because of these disagreements, the leaders of the Czech and Slovak factions decide to peacefully dissolve the idea of Czechoslovakia. And so as part of this, we see something called the Velvet Divorce. And two new.

B (17:04)

Yeah, sounds nice, dude.

A (17:06)

It's the follow up album and two new countries are created. The Czech Republic or Czechia and Slovakia. This occurs on New Year's Day 1993. This is where our national anthem comes in.

B (17:21)

That's right. Because even the most amicable of divorces still involve breaking up your stuff. And sometimes that can include a song. So when Czechoslovakia split in 1993. Eben Diskin writes for Matador Network. The following More than just land was divided between the two countries. Czechoslovakia's anthem Where My Home Is was originally written in 1918. By combining verses from a Czech opera and a Slovak folk song. Makes sense, gives a little taste of both the national identities in that national anthem. When the country split in two, so did the anthem.

A (18:01)

Huh?

B (18:01)

The Czech Republic adopted the first verse as its new anthem, also called Where My Home Is. And Slovakia adopted the second verse as its new anthem, now called Lightning over the Tatras, which is clearly a more badass name than Where My Home Is. And then they add an additional verse because, you know, they only had one verse, so they had to extend it a little bit.

A (18:23)

Yeah, there we go. So amicable breakup, and everybody wants to keep at least a piece of the song. And so that's why that anthem is going to be so similar here.

D (18:40)

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E (19:11)

This is Matt Rogers from Las Cultarisas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

F (19:15)

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A (21:36)

Don't worry, folks. It gets weirder if we go over to Chuka Wanazia writing for Dutch Review, we'll see the story of the Wilhelmaus, which is regarded by the Guinness Book of World Records as the oldest national anthem in the world.

B (21:55)

That's right. And the Dutch Review piece goes on to say that the Wilhelmus only became the official anthem of the Netherlands in 1932. However, as the writer points out, things are a little bit off kilter with this anthem. While reciting the anthem, you start to ask yourself a few questions. What inspired someone to write this hymn? There we go with him again. Who wrote it? And what is the hidden meaning behind the lyrics? I just wanna take a pause real quick. Cause that word hymn came up. There is a certain, you know, reverence that needs to be conveyed in a national anthem. It really is kind of like even like what the Battle Hymn of the Republic is another big. You could say that's an anthem. It's not a national anthem. But that's sort of the idea. It does have this sort of biblic, epic quality to it.

A (22:43)

So we. We see something really interesting here. As Wanaziah explains the Wilhelmus or Wilhelmus, I'm going to go with Wilhelmus was written about a guy named Willem van Orange or O R A N J E. We are not native speakers. This guy led a fight against the Spanish for independence during the 80 Years War.

B (23:11)

That's right. And some scholars believe that the author of this piece of music may actually be a history mystery. On the other hand, this is again from Noir Nasia's piece. Some Dutch citizens and students of history of their country have always believed that the hymn was written by Philip of Marnex of St. Aldegn.

A (23:39)

He's of course, of a couple things.

B (23:41)

Yeah, he's of a couple things. Who is a very important advisor to the aforementioned Willem van Orange

A (23:50)

and a Lot of people will still propose different authors here, names of poets that were contemporarious to the rebellion, and, of course, names of advisors. The issue is for people like Dick Kornhert and I see you there, Max. Or Phillips of Mardux. Neither of these guys claim to have written this anthem, even though it was very popular during their days.

B (24:19)

You'd think if credit was to be claimed, they certainly would have done it. Right.

A (24:24)

Exactly. Now, I realize, of course, that often throughout history, an anthem will be propaganda that has new lyrics added to an existing song. So there was a traditional.

B (24:38)

Right.

A (24:38)

Traditional song. A hymn, if we want to. Really?

B (24:41)

Yeah. A folk hymn. Right. A lot of these things are kind of interchangeable, irrespective of genre, perhaps might be some of the differentiating features. But much like the oral tradition, you know, and the songs of old, like, you know, think about Tales of Night and the songs that bards might sing, the original author of those things can often be lost to history because they just get repeated and tweaked in that historical game of telephone that you're always talking about, Ben. So it does make sense that a lot of these things could date back to much more regional, traditional tunes with lyrics that are then kind of tweaked a little bit. So it makes it a little bit hard to nail down a single author.

A (25:26)

Yeah, exactly. Well said. We know a lot of the village bangers eventually, like the breakout singles of your favorite fair or carnival, they later informed national anthems. In the case of this one, it seems that the music itself can be traced back to a popular Roman Catholic French song called Autre etanson de la Via de Chartres. Acejer par la Prince de Conde.

B (25:56)

Well, certainly, we've got to put that into a little translator. What the heck does that mean? Casey Pegram would be able to help us with that. Let's see. It appears. Hold on. To translate to. Well, it's so French that the only results I'm getting are in French. Ben. Wow.

A (26:18)

I bet I could tackle little bit.

B (26:20)

I bet she could. No, Here we are at the Dutch Review, which I think is the piece. The piece in question here, then. But it does not offer us a translation. That is a bonkers long title for a piece of music. God, if only Casey were here.

A (26:37)

I believe it translates to outside the chanson of the Chartres villa, assailed by the Prince of Conde.

B (26:45)

Okay, all right. Well done. Well done, Ben. I knew you could do it.

A (26:50)

Let's not stop there. Let's figure out what a chanson is. Achanson is a musical genre spanning from medieval courtly music. So this is outside of the song. Very confusing. That's very confusing.

B (27:06)

Very confusing. Chanson. I have to imagine that it's pronounced. But this was actually a pretty controversial pick for a national anthem at the time because it was considered a little too kind of of the upper class. And a national anthem supposed to be for everybody. So at the Beginning of the 19th century, this piece of music, the Wilhelmist, was considered unworthy of being the national anthem of the Netherlands. That was because it was regarded as a song specifically for the Orange Royalists who many folks were not a big fan of.

A (27:42)

Right, Yeah, a lot of people were not a huge fan of the royal family at the time. So they didn't want to have thing to do with this until the Nazi occupation of World War II. That's when you see cities like Rotterdam completely get their bells rung. And that's when you see absolute innocent civilians getting sent wholesale into the horrors of concentration camps simply because of their

B (28:10)

religious faith and their. Obviously everybody knows about this stuff, but every time you read about it, it just like really that happened. It wasn't that long ago.

A (28:20)

Yeah. Let us not forget the Jewish people. Let us not forget the Roma people. The people of same sex orientation. Folks are getting rounded up and they're sent to death in hellish ways. And the Dutch are trying as a culture to find national pride. Right. To identify in some way that is past this slavery and horror occurring in their homelands. So they look to their old symbols and they say, all right, the Wilhelmis is maybe not that bad.

B (28:59)

Yeah, yeah. Comparatively. Can I say, Ben, I gotta call back to a thing that you said off mic when we were looking up something, a little peek behind the curtain. The idea of. Of Bawita Baw by Kid Rock kind of becoming a new de facto national anthem for us here in the United States. Yeah, non consensually, I would argue. And in that context, boy oh boy, does that Star Spangled Banner look pretty sweet.

A (29:27)

Just like a banger. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry I gave you a hard time. History.

B (29:32)

Where is Kid?

A (29:34)

Where is Job rule as well.

B (29:36)

Have you seen that video of Kid Rock and RFK getting swole together in jeans?

A (29:41)

I don't love it. It's still. It's a little uncomfortable for me.

B (29:45)

It's a lot uncomfortable. Boy, oh boy, they thought it was cool.

A (29:49)

It is still, right? Is it not still unusual for us to realize that a hymn can be a national anthem? Japan, the nation thereof, has a bone to pick about the idea of oldest national anthem. Because Japan has used a poem which is quite short but also older for its anthem. The melody just wasn't recorded or wasn't documented until the 1800s. So it depends upon how we define an anthem. Is it the poem first, the music first, or is it the time the lyrics and the music come together? I think it's the third one.

B (30:32)

I would agree with you, Ben.

D (30:36)

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E (31:06)

This is Matt Rogers from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

F (31:10)

This is Bowen Yang from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. What if your WI fi was more than just WI fi? What if your wifi made everything in your whole house just work together better?

E (31:21)

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F (31:27)

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B (31:36)

Right.

F (31:36)

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B (33:50)

Moving over to South Africa and what Max described as probably the most creative and definitely the hardest national anthem to learn. Because it's got those clickies, it's got those little sounds which are not particularly easy. God Bless Africa, writes Jackie Bischoff for qz. The title and first lines of Enoch Sontonga's hymn Nikosi Sikalai I Africa may appear simple to some, but 120 years after it was written, it has become one of the most powerful tunes in Africa's history. A symbol to the post colonial liberation movement used in the past and present post independence national anthems of South Africa, Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe and Namibia.

A (34:37)

Yeah, this is a fascinating and inspiring story because Syntaga initially wrote this hymn, this Zilkte hymn for his school choir in 1897. And I want to pause there because as we have pointed out earlier, it is quite difficult for us to pronounce this language. If you want to look it up, you're going to look for a language spelled Xhosa. Anyway, so he writes this hymn for a school choir, 1897. It's inspired probably in part by the work of a poet named Joseph Perry from Wales. This hymn becomes popular. Other choirs start performing it. Fast forward 1912. It is sung at a meeting of the South African Native National Congress, which we now call the African National Congress or ancient.

B (35:31)

That's right. The ANC adopted the hymn as its official song in 1925 as an act of defiance to the South African government's racist policies towards black Africans. Apartheid is what we call that.

A (35:51)

Yeah. And now it becomes a unifying liberation anthem, a hymn to an anthem again. And a lot of communities that might not have otherwise unified, they agree on this song. And we see the Streisand effect. The apartheid government tries to ban anybody from singing this anthem. So naturally, everybody wants to sing it. Fast forward, 1994. Then President Nelson Mandela says, hey, can we get a modified version of Sontonga's original hymn? And can we combine it with the old Afrikaner hymn, the Call of South Africa or Die Stim van Suite Afrika?

B (36:40)

So interesting. Afrikaan language so much in common with German.

A (36:44)

Yeah, very much so. And they say, okay, we're going to use these two sources to make a unifying thing, a unified national anthem. If you go to the boffins over at Michigan State, like David Copeland and Benetta, Jules Rosette, you'll see that they describe it as being composed in the form of a blessing, offering a message of unity and uplift, to act morally and spiritually on behalf of the entire African continent. So it's a beautiful idea, right?

B (37:19)

It is. It really is. But it does add a level of complexity to it that you don't find in most national anthems because of the absolute just cornucopia of languages that are spoken in this part of the world.

A (37:35)

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And we as knuckleheaded United States, or Americans, as we're sometimes called, we have a hard time learning our own national hymn that is just in one language. This anthem, it has five different languages. English is one. But then you have Joca, you have Zulu, you have Setoto, you have Afrikaans. If you're singing the full anthem, you're supposed to sing all five languages because it is about unification. Let's get your country singer pal to do that one.

B (38:10)

Gosh, that sounds a little painful.

A (38:13)

It's a tall milkshake, I think.

B (38:15)

No, pal of mine. No, I'm sorry. I hope she's doing well.

A (38:18)

Yeah, hope so. We've got a couple other things we wanted to get to England's national anthem. We're not necessarily fans. There are four nations who cut past vocals. In general, four nations have national anthems with no words. They are San Marino, Kosovo. Our guest from earlier in the episode, Bosnia and Herzegovina. And then, of course, Spain. I don't know why I said of course Spain. I had no idea.

B (38:48)

I don't know. I mean, it's definitely a classy move. It's like, we don't need lyrics. We can communicate this national pride with melody alone.

A (38:58)

Just hear the chord progressions and you'll get what we're about.

B (39:02)

I mean, it's funny, like, a lot of really great classical music is meant to paint a picture, you know, without words. Like, there's this piece called Themes from the Maldau that is meant to be the. You know, it starts off with these happy sailors, you know, preparing to go on a voyage. And then the next movement, the seas begin to roil and get a little more intense. And then the next movement, it's an outright storm. And you can really feel all that stuff, even if you don't really know that that's what it's supposed to be about. Pretty cool.

A (39:33)

I love that. I love when bands do that as well. Bands that will ordinarily, you know, have vocals or have a lead vocalist. But then there's one track on the album that is purely instrumental. I think that's powerful. I'm thinking of, you know, I'm thinking of the band Beirut.

B (39:50)

Yeah. I love fully instrumental bands.

A (39:54)

Explosions in the Sky.

B (39:55)

Yeah. Tortoise is one of my favorites.

A (39:58)

And.

B (39:59)

Yeah. No, I think it's a cool. It's a cool idea.

A (40:01)

Well, with this, I do have a question to pose to you, Noel, and to pose to you, Max, before we wrap today's episode. Are you prepared?

B (40:11)

I am. Can't speak for Max.

A (40:15)

Right, Right. Okay. Could the US Change its national anthem, and should it?

B (40:20)

Tubawa taba.

A (40:23)

I jumped the gun. I don't think that's a good.

B (40:25)

The gees with the 40s and the chicks with beepers. That doesn't resonate, you think, with the common man.

A (40:30)

Is it possible that we are in a situation. I'm going to be very political here. Is it possible that we are in a situation where a president with a predilection for naming stuff after himself would ask for a new national anthem featuring him?

B (40:51)

Let's just say. Let's just change it to God Save the King?

A (40:54)

Oh, no, no.

B (40:56)

To answer your question, Ben, it is certainly not outside the realm of possibility. Yeah. I mean, Francis Scott Keys is kind of a pill. So I would not be against getting rid of stuff. Just, like, as a dude. Yeah. He's, like, not a good. Was not a good person. But, I mean, in this scenario, it sounds like it would be a D downgrades.

A (41:14)

It is also true that 48 of the 50 states in the US union have state songs and some of them have more than one state song. Can we guess the state song of Georgia?

B (41:29)

It is the Devil Went down to Georgia by the Charlie Daniels Band.

A (41:33)

It better be. Unfortunately, it's Georgia on My Mind.

B (41:38)

Okay, look. Excellent song. Heard it too many times.

A (41:42)

Yeah, because it's like the state song. I can't wait to hear more about anthems. I know we are all fans of seeing big public performances. Super producer Max, thank you so much for being our research associate on this one. And thank you of course to Alex Williams who composed the anthem of Ridiculous History, which is instrumental entirely. We're just instrumental because we rule.

B (42:10)

Huge thanks to Chris for Haciotis and Eve. Jeff Coates here at Spirit and Man.

E (42:15)

Ben, you know what?

B (42:15)

Let's just cut it short.

A (42:16)

Thanks to you and with you as well.

B (42:19)

We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This is Julian Edelman from Games With Names. I want to take a second to talk about something that's personal to me. I've had the privilege of working closely with Robert Kraft for a long time, and one thing I've always respected is how seriously he takes up standing up to hate. As a Jewish athlete, my identity is something I am proud of. But I also know what it feels like to be singled out for it. That's why this new commercial for the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate that aired during the big game really hit home. It's about showing up for someone when they're targeted, even if you don't have the perfect words. And sometimes standing next to someone is enough. And you can show support by sharing the Blue Square.

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