How Dogs Went Domestic, Part One: Classic Rom-Com

Summary

Ridiculous History: How Dogs Went Domestic, Part One: Classic Rom-Com

Release Date: January 7, 2025 | Host: Ben Bolan & Noel Brown | Produced by iHeartRadio

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Introduction: The Start of a Canine Saga

In the premiere episode of the two-part series "How Dogs Went Domestic," Ben Bolan and Noel Brown embark on an engaging exploration of the extraordinary journey from wolves to the diverse domestic dogs we know today. Setting the stage with enthusiasm, Ben declares, “Dogs are just awesome” (00:48), immediately capturing the audience's affection for our furry companions.

Early Interactions: Rivals Turned Partners

The hosts delve into the initial contentious relationship between early humans and wolves. They liken their evolving bond to a classic romantic comedy, highlighting how two competing species with similar hunting strategies eventually found common ground. Ben humorously notes, “Dogs, what we call dogs today are most likely the first non-human animal species to be domesticated by human beings” (09:46). This period marked thousands of years of rivalry over resources, turning into a cooperative alliance.

Theories of Domestication: Assisted Evolution

Ben and Noel discuss the concept of assisted evolution, where human intervention directly influenced the domestication process. Noel emphasizes, “What we see is in early human civilization, certain things that could only be done with canines were very much like superpowers” (05:58). They explore the theory proposed by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, suggesting that as humans transitioned to agriculture, they inadvertently created new ecological niches that wolves adapted to by staying closer to human settlements (26:25).

Archaeological Evidence: Ancient Bonds

The conversation shifts to archaeological findings that provide tangible evidence of early human-dog relationships. Ben mentions the Bonn-Oberkassel dog, a 14,200-year-old specimen from Germany, which showed signs of care and affection despite suffering from distemper (53:56). Noel adds, “We see dogs buried with people. Now we're seeing the, you know, the beloved Fido nestled up with an ancient human” (53:10), underscoring the deep emotional bonds that existed long before written history.

Genetic Mysteries: The Canine DNA Enigma

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to unraveling the genetic complexities of dog domestication. The hosts reference Greg Larson’s research, which likens dog genetics to a “bowl of soup” due to extensive crossbreeding between dogs and wolves (49:08). Ben cites a study where DNA from a 4,800-year-old dog bone found in Newgrange provided insights into the genetic divergence between eastern Eurasian and western Eurasian dog populations (55:32). This leads to the hypothesis that dogs were independently domesticated multiple times across different regions (57:13), although consensus remains elusive.

Case Studies: Stories of Ancient Dogs

Ben and Noel share fascinating stories of ancient dogs, such as a Tunisian dog from a Roman burial who lived to 18 years old (53:56), and highlight how these dogs were cared for, indicating advanced social structures and empathy in early human societies. Noel remarks, “They cared for their elderly,” drawing parallels to how Neanderthals looked after their sick and elderly (53:56).

The Evolutionary Split: Wolves vs. Dogs

The discussion moves to the evolutionary split between wolves and dogs. Ben explains, “Modern wolves are not the direct ancestral line,” pointing out that the domestication process involved a specific subset of late Pleistocene gray wolves (35:09). Noel concurs, emphasizing that modern genetic studies indicate that the core ancestor of all domestic dogs was an extinct wolf population (38:26).

Mutual Benefits: Commensal Domestication

Ben introduces the concept of commensal domestication, where both humans and dogs benefited from their partnership. Dogs aided in hunting, protection, and companionship, while humans provided a steady food source and shelter. Noel adds, “Having a creature around that's nipping at your heels... You're probably going to put an end to that real quick” (25:46), highlighting the selective pressures that favored cooperative wolves.

Teasing Part Two: The Next Chapter in Domestication

As the episode nears its conclusion, Ben and Noel tease the upcoming second part of their series, which promises to delve deeper into the nuances of domestication. Noel states, “We're going to have to take a break here and start a new episode entirely on domestication” (58:48), leaving listeners eager for the continuation of this captivating story.

Notable Quotes:

• Ben Bolan: “Dogs, what we call dogs today are most likely the first non-human animal species to be domesticated by human beings.” (09:46)
• Noel Brown: “What we see is in early human civilization, certain things that could only be done with canines were very much like superpowers.” (05:58)
• Ben Bolan: “Modern wolves are not the direct ancestral line.” (35:09)
• Noel Brown: “They cared for their elderly.” (53:56)
• Ben Bolan: “Dogs were definitely the first animals to experience the profound change we call domestication today.” (57:13)

Conclusion: A Legendary Bond

In this richly detailed episode, Ben Bolan and Noel Brown successfully weave a narrative that is both informative and entertaining, shedding light on the complex and often mysterious process of dog domestication. By combining archaeological evidence, genetic research, and engaging storytelling, they provide a comprehensive understanding of how dogs transitioned from wild wolves to beloved companions. The episode serves as a perfect blend of humor, knowledge, and passion, making it accessible and enjoyable for both dog enthusiasts and history buffs alike.

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For more captivating stories from human civilization’s most ridiculous and fascinating tales, tune into Ridiculous History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you enjoy your favorite podcasts.

Transcript

[Ben Bolan]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Happy 2025. Let's hear our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Woof, woof. I am Ben Bolan, joined as always with the man, the myth, the legend, our very own bagman, Mr. Noel Brown.

[Noel Brown]

I'm a regular human incarnation of a Labradoodle.

[Ben Bolan]

Nice. Nice.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

This is how we're kicking it off, guys. We're doing an on purpose two parter. We knew in advance this would be, this would be a saga, a journey. It's about dogs. We hope that you are, if you are a dog owner or dog friend, we hope that you and your fellow pooch are listening along today. We gotta start off with this. Dogs are just awesome.

[Noel Brown]

They're pretty cool, you know. And Ben, I gotta add, you said this is an episode intentional two parter about dogs. I would argue too, it's also about humans.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes. Yeah, we'll get to the idea of co evolution.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, indeed. But nah, man, you're right. Like I was never what I would consider a dog person until I had a couple of special boys come into my life. And I would say I'm definitely approaching dog person at this point. But you point out too, Ben, and your fantastic research brief for this topic, that most people, whether they're dog people or not, or they would consider themselves as such, probably have a couple of, you know, doggos that they vibe with. Right?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah. Even if you don't particularly love the idea of dogs in general, even if you don't want that close partnership in your own neck of the global woods, you probably ran into at least one or two specific doggos that you dig. And so this time we are asking at the very beginning of 2025, how did humans and what used to be wolves strike this bizarre, fascinating, at times ridiculous covenant? And it very much is a covenant for sure.

[Noel Brown]

And how in the blazes did these creatures get so dang cute and have such sway over our mortal souls?

[Ben Bolan]

Cough. Cough. Oxytocin. We've to say it right here at the front, folks.

[Jason Alexander]

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[Ben Bolan]

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[Jason Alexander]

I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together our mission on the really Know really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions, like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure? And does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign. Jason Bobblehead the Really no really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple.

[Ben Bolan]

Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ellie Flynn]

We want to speak out and we want this to stop.

[Noel Brown]

Wow.

[Ben Bolan]

Very powerful.

[Ellie Flynn]

I'm Ellie Flynn, an investigative journalist, and this is my journey deep into the adult entertainment industry. I really wanted to be a Playboy model. He was like, I'll take you to the top. I'll make you a star. To expose an alleged predator and the rotten industry he works in. It's honestly so much worse than I had anticipated. We're an army in comparison to him. From novel. Listen to the bunny trap on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bolan]

Welcome to the Criminalia podcast.

[Jason Alexander]

I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Ben Bolan]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together, we invite you into the dark.

[Noel Brown]

And winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Ben Bolan]

Each season we explore a new theme, from poisoners to art thieves.

[Noel Brown]

We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.

[Ben Bolan]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Noel Brown]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bolan]

The domestic dog is known as the canis lupus familiaris in our fellow nerd circles. And get this, Noel. It is currently one of the most widespread carnivores on all of the land.

[Noel Brown]

Ben, something just hit me like a bolt out of the blue. Familiaris. You know how, like, you know, vampires and witches and stuff, they have a familiar, which is usually some sort of pet that they keep by their side that aids them in their infernal deeds or, you know, possibly benevolent deeds. No shaming here of anyone practicing the aughts of magic. But it's gotta be a connection there, right?

[Ben Bolan]

Absolutely. A known entity. And if we tease that out a bit further, Noel. What we see is in early human civilization, certain things that could only be done with canines were very much like superpowers. You have a familiar that can supervise super power, viz, whatever your flock of livestock, whether they be goats, sheeps, et cetera.

[Noel Brown]

Well, heck, even just the act of fetching is a bit of a power. You know, it's sort of like an extension of yourself.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

And today, these creatures that you ridiculous historians may be petting right now, they come in so many shapes and sizes, they're found in pretty much every country all over the world. There is no nation that has a ban against dogs. We may well do an entire episode on dog breeds in the future. So, fellow ridiculous historians, go ahead, get in front of it. Tell us your favorites. Fetch us some photos.

[Noel Brown]

Indeed. Hit us with your picks. You know, Ben, you mentioned the idea of no ban on dogs. I love that you jumped right to the chase on that. We've talked a lot on our other podcast stuff. They don't want you to know about how often in many countries domesticated animals are off limits for consumption because of something called speciesism, I believe is the term in which humans prize value the lives of certain species of creatures over others. And dogs tend to be front and center in this way of thinking.

[Ben Bolan]

Hmm, I'll eat a lot of things as long as they're not cute, say the humans. Now, of course we know. I appreciate you pointing this out at the top, Noel. Of course we know that in certain cultures and at certain times of privation, humans have consumed dogs and cats and you know, each other.

[Noel Brown]

Horses.

[Ben Bolan]

Sure, yes.

[Noel Brown]

I mean, you know, I think, I believe you've been. Some of your travels have sent me pictures of places where they fully advertise that they serve horse.

[Ben Bolan]

Yep, that's correct. And I have consumed those fleet footed quadrupeds.

[Noel Brown]

And not to get too off track here, but while we here in America might frown upon eating horses, we sure as heck use the crap out of them for our own financial gain and entertainment, don't we?

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, just so. So we do want to acknowledge. Again, look, when we say that human being culturally have predilections or social mores against consumption of certain other animals, we are acknowledging that if worse comes to worse, humans will eat anything, including one another.

[Noel Brown]

That's right, we've seen it. The Donner Party, for example. Cases of humans being stranded in horrible situations and survival becomes really the only thing left.

[Ben Bolan]

Leningrad war zones. The list unfortunately goes on. Please check out our earlier series on Cannibalism. We promise we're going to keep this pretty light because we are such fans of dogs. In fact, Noel, when we were talking to our pal max here in 2025 pitching this dog episode, Max said, you know guys, this is definitely going to be a two parter.

[Noel Brown]

Oh yeah, yeah. We all three of us here love dogs. On ridiculous history. I mean I think we're all collective, just animal lovers.

[Ben Bolan]

Obviously our love of cats is very well stated. But I'm like, Ben's like, I'm going to try to shorten this down.

[Noel Brown]

Like Ben, there's no point. We're going to go on forever about this. We might as well just accept it. I will say I have a complicated relationship with cats that usually lands on liking, but it sort of vacillates. But I think that's the nature of cats. Whereas dogs just kind of give you their undying affection and love and loyalty. Loyalty. And that comes in no small part from their evolution.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes. Yeah. Dogs, what we call dogs today are most likely the first non human animal species to be domesticated by human beings. It's a bond that goes back tens of thousands of years, so far back that we are not sure how long ago this occurred. Somewhere between 40,000 years ago there were things that we could call wolves on the way to doghood. And the things that we know could be considered dogs instead of wolves, they show up somewhere around 14,000 to 15,000 years ago. But 15,000 to 40,000, that's a crazy margin, right? That's pretty wide.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Pretty wide swath indeed.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. And scientists as of now are still debating about the history and evolution of dogs, the timeline of how this interaction with humans, this great team up occurred. Here's what we know so far. We gotta talk about the ancient past. Noel, what do we mean when we say dog?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, I mean dogs belong to a family known as Canadae. Has nothing to do with Canada, which is a family of, you guessed it, dog like species. You probably know the hippo. It's foxes, wolves. You already mentioned Ben. Jackals. Yeah. You know, kind of long proboscis having quadrupeds with waggly tails.

[Ben Bolan]

The coyote as well.

[Noel Brown]

Yes.

[Ben Bolan]

They branched off from a family called Maya CD about 40 million years ago, probably in North America. That's where, that's where we see the evolutionary split. That's why, to be quite honest, that's why they're not domesticated bears for sure.

[Noel Brown]

And you know Ben, what's interesting about this whole conversation, among many things that are interesting about it, is this is an example of. I guess we could call it kind of assisted evolution, Right? Yeah, yeah, like evolution that is directly changed, the course of which the branchings of which are influenced directly by the actions of human beings.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. Natural V. Artificial selection. I mean, maybe we explore this ancient past with some journalism logic, old school J type stuff. What? When, where and how did this amazing friendship come about?

[Noel Brown]

Extra, extra. You read all about it. No, it's true, Ben. Dogs look different. There's so many varieties of these fluffy creatures. You point out, Ben, that a shih Tzu looks a whole lot different from a big old mastiff. And both of those look a hell of a lot different from a wolf. The OG Indeed.

[Ben Bolan]

So, okay, this is true. And you might be petting your favorite Pomeranian or In Fear of a Shaky Chihuahua right now as you listen to this. Today, most folks believe modern dogs came from a relatively small population of now extinct gray wolves from the pleistine. And it was. Dude, it's just like the first act of a good rom com. Early humans and these wolves who are again, extinct, they did not get along at first. They were rivals, ecologically speaking. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

I'm so excited to get into some of the details of how domestication works, but the question becomes why this particular subspecies of gray wolves? There's just something about their demeanor kind of. Right.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah. They had these. They had this will they, won't they thing going on for quite some time. I'm sticking with this rom com analogy.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, yeah, No, I love it. It's a bit of a meet cute.

[Jason Alexander]

Right.

[Ben Bolan]

They were competing for the same resources, they were after the same prey. Right. And they were largely carnivorous. If anything, these two groups already had evolved to be incredibly similar. Like humans, wolves are highly social creatures. They live in packs. They have complex hierarchies. Although the alpha wolf thing, by the way, is kind of a myth. Just gonna put that out there.

[Noel Brown]

The lone wolf.

[Ben Bolan]

The lone wolf can happen.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, okay. Those are different. Yalpha wolf. Meaning what? Like leader of the pack?

[Ben Bolan]

Just like the old Motown song, which we cannot legally afford to play a clip of.

[Noel Brown]

No, we can't. But you can use your imagination. You're hearing it in your head right now. I know you are. It's a jam. So the members of a pack, more realistically, were kind of equals.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. So in a hierarchical environment, the primary thing is going to be stuff like access to reproduction and who gets to eat first. This is clearly also happening to the human packs as well. Both wolves and humans are what we would call Nomadic at the point where they have this rom com and even their hunting strategies were related. Noel, I'm sure you've heard the phrase persistent hunter, persistence hunting.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. And not to mention hungry like the wolf.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes. Yeah. And both humans and wolves track their prey over long distances, wearing down the sprinters, the usain bolts of. Of the grazing world.

[Noel Brown]

Oh yeah, we've certainly seen National Geographic footage that is somewhat triggering traumatic, dare I say of, you know, the wolves kind of running after a herd of grazing animals and kind of picking off.

[Ben Bolan]

The weak ones or a flock of seagulls. I just want to reference that.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, another good 80s ref.

[Ben Bolan]

Right, so wolves at this time and honestly at all times, wolves are not normally attacking humans. Most non human predators are not actively chasing the human being because humans are intensely inconvenient prey. But these wolves back in the day, they are super duper down with stealing and scavenging whatever they can, whenever they can. This was a rivalry that continued for thousands and thousands and thousands of years until something changed.

[Noel Brown]

Well sure, I mean we've already kind of alluded to it, but human beings entering the chat changed a whole lot. Ben, there's a Rudyard Kipling poem that I think sums this up beautifully that I know you're a fan of the law of the jungle.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah. The most important part of that is probably the refrain. For the strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack. Humans had similar experiences. They learned to care for one another, right? To rear their young, to protect and feed them. They got to the point where they got by with a little help from their friends. And this is something that we see wolves doing as well now in the brutal game of nature. Shout out to David Attenborough et al. We will see that usually creatures this ecologically close with such a similar Venn diagram of Ames, they will become mortal enemies. They will possibly fight unto the point of extinction. And for a long time the smartest boffins in the human world used to believe that early human communities would kill adult wolves, kidnap their cubs and then hand rear them, effectively taming them, which is different from domesticating them. But there's a big problem with this theory Noel, it's the timing.

[Noel Brown]

Well yeah, I mean it's like these types of shifts don't happen overnight. This is a bit of a long game and like one cub being reared by humans does not equate to a, you know, full bore domestication of a species.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, just cause you tame and pet one extinct gray wolf doesn't mean all its kids are gonna be, what's a funny dog breed?

[Noel Brown]

Oh, well, you already said shih tzu. Well, and I said labradoodle.

[Ben Bolan]

Cockapoo schnauzer.

[Noel Brown]

Sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think I get what you're putting down, Ben. The way evolution works is there has to be a trait that becomes beneficial to the species entire, you know, that allows them to flourish. And with man entering the equation, it makes a lot of sense that over time, playing nice with humans would be just that type of adaptation.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah, just so. And that's a great point, because if you look at wolves today and you look at wolves back then, they are relatively uniform in appearance. They're homogeneous. The odds of a mutation appearing randomly in one wolf in a cat captive population, even today, they're very small. And it's winning the lottery four times in a row, probably more in a row, to imagine a mutation that would successfully breed through a population. So logically, it would have taken thousands or even millions of years to get the diversity that we see in dogs. But if you look at the fossil evidence, you'll see dogs appear pretty recently.

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[Jason Alexander]

I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the really Know really podcast.

[Ben Bolan]

Our mission is to get the true.

[Jason Alexander]

Answers to life's baffling questions, like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's gonna drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us.

[Ben Bolan]

How are you?

[Noel Brown]

Hello.

[Jason Alexander]

My friend Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to really? Not really, sir.

[Ben Bolan]

Bless you all.

[Jason Alexander]

Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging.

[Noel Brown]

Really? That's the opening? Really? No.

[Ben Bolan]

Really?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, really? No, really.

[Jason Alexander]

Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign Jason Bobblehead.

[Noel Brown]

It's called really?

[Ben Bolan]

No, really?

[Jason Alexander]

And you can find it on the.

[Ben Bolan]

Iheartradio app on Apple Podcasts or wherever.

[Noel Brown]

You get your podcasts.

[Ellie Flynn]

We want to speak out, we want to raise awareness, and we want this to stop.

[Noel Brown]

Wow.

[Ellie Flynn]

Very powerful. I'm Ellie Flynn and I'm an investigative journalist. When a group of models from from the UK wanted my help, I went on a journey deep into the heart of the adult entertainment industry. I really wanted to be a Playboy model, Lingerie topless. I said, yes, please, because at the center of this murky world is an alleged predator. You know who he is because of.

[Ben Bolan]

His pattern of behavior.

[Ellie Flynn]

He's just spinning the web for you to get trapped in it.

[Noel Brown]

He's everywhere and has been everywhere.

[Ellie Flynn]

It's so much worse and so much more widespread than I had anticipated. Together, we're going to expose him and the rotten industry he works in. It's not just me. We're an army in comparison to him. Listen to the bunny trap on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ben Bolan]

What we say 40, 33,000 years ago. If you fast forward to 15,000 years ago, you were going to see unambiguously domesticated dogs. And Noel, they have all the stuff that you were describing right in the bone structure, the changes in the snout, and perhaps even more importantly, the changes in human interaction with those creatures. Now we're seeing dogs buried with people. Now we're seeing the, you know, the beloved Fido. Shout out to our Fido episode, you know, nestled up with an ancient human. And we also have modern evidence that shows us wild wolves are different from dogs on a fundamental level. Like, you take a random dog, you take a random wolf, they behave very differently.

[Noel Brown]

Right. There have been studies of wolf pups raised in captivity that show that this would have been completely impractical. The way that early humans lived was pretty tough. I mean, you know, there's no question about that. Survival was the name of the game. So regardless of how much attention or, you know, love and care are given to these wolf pups, the fact remains that they are wolves.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, very much so. Right. Like, if you raise a horse and you raise a zebra, you can tame them both, but only one could be domesticated. It's strange. And I love that you're pointing out the time it would take as a hunter gatherer to pay this focused attention to this thing that will naturally bite you and will see you as an ecological threat.

[Noel Brown]

You got enough going on. You don't need that nobody. You don't need that drama.

[Ben Bolan]

No, no. You're out hunting mammoths or whatever. You got bigger things to worry about. You're trying to figure out wheels and fire. You know, you got a lot of.

[Noel Brown]

Projects, a hundred percent. That's to say that you're not going to purposefully keep around something that is not benefiting you in some way. You know, this is like very much a lean time where you travel light and you definitely aren't keeping heck, human stragglers around. You know, if people can't pull their weight in the hunting party, they're probably not going to make it either. So, like having a creature around that's nipping at your heels, literally, or, you know, the worst, actually biting you and drawing blood. You're probably going to put an end to that real quick.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. Can you trust this other entity that is not human? Can you trust it to the point where you go to sleep around it? The answer with dogs is yes. The answer with wolves is no.

[Noel Brown]

Right, Right. Yeah. Can you have your infants around? Ooh.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, Good point. Because wolves are not really rule followers. They're not into human rubric of behavior. This leads us to the next question, which you so excellently foreshadowed. What if some wolves effectively domesticated themselves.

[Noel Brown]

Because they saw a benefit to running with the humans?

[Ben Bolan]

Mm.

[Peter Tilden]

Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

It's a theory we find in Works Like Dogs, A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and evolution by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger.

[Noel Brown]

Very eyebrow stuff.

[Ben Bolan]

It's a pretty great read. It's kind of controversial, but it's one example of this Argument. It suggests that when humans moved from a mobile hunter gatherer society to agriculture, to a sedentary lifestyle where you had to stick around and make sure crops made it from one season to the next, their argument is that in doing so, humans created a new parking spot, a new ecological niche for the wolves in the area.

[Noel Brown]

Well, it's just like in any situation, I think it's Maslow's hierarchy of needs that once certain needs are required to be met. Shelter, food, et cetera, once those needs are easily, you kind of open up the ability to focus on things like leisure and perhaps companionship from a critter.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, right. I love that you're bringing in Maslow. There we see that what likely happened is some of these early wolves may have built a tolerance to the presence of humans. And they at some point realized, look, if you see humans around, they litter, they leave a lot of leftovers, they leave a lot of trash. So we can go to the human camp just like one of those weird folks at a fish festival.

[Noel Brown]

Ground scores.

[Ben Bolan]

Is that what they're called? Is that real? They're called ground scores.

[Noel Brown]

They're called ground scores.

[Ben Bolan]

What is the ground score?

[Noel Brown]

It's anything that you find on the ground at a festival. Typically you'd be looking for drugs, but it can be anything that could be in, you know, something useful.

[Ben Bolan]

I love it. I love it. So the wolves figure out how to ground score. What a perfect term. And then they also evolved the. Well, they didn't really evolve at this point. They sort of migrated their skill set. The stuff they used for their wolf packs. They figured out they could do the same thing for their new human packs.

[Noel Brown]

Well, there was a new situation that presented itself, and it's a whole heck of a lot easier to, you know, gnaw on a nice juicy bone that still has some meat on it than it is to stalk and hunt and kill your prey. Not to mention if humans presence and their advantage in hunting is maybe thinning out the herd for you a little bit.

[Ben Bolan]

That's a really good point. And perhaps, like so many big changes, this happened in small steps. Max, could you cue us up some epic historical soundtrack?

[Noel Brown]

King? Good chap.

[Ben Bolan]

Perfect. Yeah. Want some weight to it? Yeah. I like the hand signals you're given there. All right, so picture this. What if one of these ancient wolves long ago is low in the pecking order of her own community and she decides to leave her pack and takes up a life closer to a human community? Like you were saying. No, something with a more consistent source of Food. And at first, she lives along the fringes, right?

[Noel Brown]

She hides. She's sort of like coming in like a thief in the night and picking up these scraps. But then over time, you know, perhaps the humans acknowledge the presence of the wolf no longer as a threat. And the moment that the humans stop immediately, like killing these creatures on sight, but rather see them as a potential benefit, then there's this kind of quid pro quo thing that emerges.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes. Now look at this. They say this one wolf out of all these other wolves, it can smell better than us. It can see better, it can hear better, it warns us of predators. It also helps us find food. It also guards our little humans. Humanys. Like human mini mees.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

And eventually the humans also learn to tolerate this presence. Meaning that the descendants of our hypothetical she wolf reproduce around the humans. They grow tamer with each generation.

[Noel Brown]

Sure.

[Ben Bolan]

They eventually evolve more complicated behaviors like guarding crops. That's not a thing wolves do.

[Noel Brown]

Well, you know, and it's funny, at the top of the show, I sort of mentioned the idea of like, sort of human assisted evolution. But the more I think about it, like, that's just kind of how evolution works. Humans are just another factor, you know, that presents itself in evolution that over time become the reason for an adapted trait that then, you know, over time, with these generations of new pups being born among the humans, that just sort of becomes an innate characteristic that is learned. And is it a mutation, though? Because eventually, long enough, I guess, the mutation does take place and their appearances begin to change. The wolves, not the humans.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, well, humans too, a little bit.

[Noel Brown]

I mean, we certainly know that early humans look different than what we know of as more modern humans. But we certainly begin to see a change in the physicality of what were once wolves and are now starting to resemble much more closely what we think of today as dogs. Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

Man, it's so wild to imagine sheepdogs, just sheepdogs alone, working, herding dogs. Their wolf ancestors would have immediately killed the sheep. And now the dogs will go on these, honestly, these action movie level missions to kill wolves. There's that one guy I think we both saw who just, like, killed 11 wolves and went and tracked them down, Liam Neeson style. Do you hear about this one?

[Noel Brown]

I don't think so, no.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, he's a legend.

[Noel Brown]

Who?

[Ben Bolan]

Liam Neeson's the dog version. The canine version. Right. And, you know, shout out to you, Liam, if you're listening and you're thinking, I still have that dog in me. Well, then we Got your back.

[Noel Brown]

I mean, but dogs definitely have a certain set of skills. You're absolutely right. And those skills sort of develop over time with further influence from their now human masters. I mean, you know, like to your point, wolves would have immediately eaten the sheep rather than helped the humans out because there's sort of a new, I guess, currency because if you, if you hang with the humans, you're getting more consistently fed, you're getting more consistently treated, you know, well, rather than being out in the wild and fending for yourself. And I know that's an oversimplification, but.

[Ben Bolan]

There is something to that 100% and it's perhaps one of the most baffling differences. The idea that you could as a human society somehow impart the concept of rules. Right. And object permanence upon this non human animal that could, you could say, hey, I know we usually eat the sheep and don't worry, we are going to eat sheep later. But for now, bro, I need you to just bark if you see any wolves.

[Noel Brown]

Well, and it's just a long game, you know, trial and error type situation. Much like humans figuring out what things would kill you if you ate them or what things were tasty and would give you sustenance. It's the same deal. Like, can you imagine the first person that decided to try to train a more wolf, like, you know, canine probably didn't go well for quite a while.

[Ben Bolan]

I, you know, I think about that a lot. I think they probably just threw scraps at a distance and the dog, excuse me, the wolf on the way to doghood showed up. But I don't think there was any petting. I don't think there were any belly scratches for quite some time and more.

[Noel Brown]

Modern psychology gave us sort of a framework for understanding this with things like the Pavlovian responses, you know, and like being able to train the dog with positive reinforcement, et cetera. But they didn't have a name for that then, was literally just kind of making it up as they went along until they got a result that was desirable.

[Ben Bolan]

Great point. Yeah. We should also note at this juncture, humans hadn't even figured out how to write stuff down.

[Noel Brown]

Exactly.

[Ben Bolan]

You know what I mean?

[Noel Brown]

They were, they were vibing their way through all of this. Yes, 100% they were vibing.

[Ben Bolan]

That's the way to put it. And we may be romanticizing our she wolf situation a bit, but we do know something like this had to have occurred. Those gray wolves did eventually evolve into something like dogs. And when they did those just like how we're saying it's dangerous for the first human to try to hang out with a wolf. It's dangerous for the first wolf to try to hang out with a human, you know, because historically, if you're a wolf and you see a group of humans, you're not going to, like, howl at the moon and then jump at them. You are going to run away. And then after they leave, when you can smell that they are gone, you are going to run back to where they were and see if you can eat any of their trash.

[Noel Brown]

Well, that's right, because, I mean, you know, early on in this relationship, humans, and still today there are wolves that remain. And if you're in a sort of a nomadic culture or you're in sort of maybe some of the more untamed parts of the world, you're going to shoot wolves on sight a lot of the time because they represent a threat to your settlements, to your community.

[Ben Bolan]

Even in places where it's illegal to do so, folks will attempt to shoot wolves or poison them or somehow murder them, because for them, it is a direct, clear and present threat. If you're a timid wolf, however, you don't get in the human club because you're always running away. So there's a Goldilocks zone, as astronomers would call it. The bolder ones are the ones who go up to the edge of the firelight.

[Noel Brown]

And it's sort of what I was alluding to early on when you talked about how there was a particular group of gray wolves that were the sort of genesis of what we think of today as. As dogs. And it was something to do with their temperament. They were a little bolder, they were a little more curious. They were a little more willing to check things out and not immediately maul on site? Yes.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. They were not smash on sight. They had a little more vinegar with them. We're a family show, so we're not going to use the other American idiom, pepee and vinegar.

[Noel Brown]

Right.

[Ben Bolan]

One group of wolves we know split from the human forest hunters. They went down a different evolutionary path. You can find them now, this other group of wolves that hung with the humans, they figured out quickly they didn't have to be as fast nor as creative as their ancestors. In fact, being slower was better. Being smaller was better because smaller animals need less food. The male quality, and we're still natural selection here, the main quality these individuals needed to have was a tolerance for humans.

[Noel Brown]

And would that group of the gray wolves that branched off be what we would today refer to as Canis lupus.

[Ben Bolan]

Well, canis lupus, yeah. This is. You're getting to it because the wolves that are alive now are not the direct ancestors of the dogs that are alive now. Like you're describing the Pleistine. I believe it's Pleistein wolves that probably created dogs. They are extinct now. Right.

[Noel Brown]

What I'm saying is that evolutionary split, the one that we know of today as like that's a wolf, is what we would call Canis lupus. Yes.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah, I believe that's correct. And during this split, this is all taking a very long time. Right. Humans are using. I don't like using. They're working with these primitive dogs to help hunt, to help protect the human pack from bigger matter predators. And at the same time, as you mentioned earlier, dogs are using humans as a consistent food source. Now, if you have never had to live in the wild, congratulations. If you ever find yourself in the woods with no help and no cell phone, your biggest immediate concerns are going to be finding consistent sources of water and food.

[Noel Brown]

And hopefully you get to league up with a white fang type situation. Right, yeah, of course.

[Ben Bolan]

You know, dream big. This is a mutually beneficial structure for the humans and the wolves on the way to doghood. It's called commensial domestication. It's a symbiosis of sorts. It's the same structure we see in human canine relationships today. Like, have you ever hung out with a sheepdog? They're amazing. They love doing like, they naturally love organizing stuff. They're very type A. Absolutely.

[Noel Brown]

No, I have not personally spent time with a sheepdog, but I've seen Benji.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, yes.

[Noel Brown]

He was a good boy.

[Ben Bolan]

The franchise. Yeah. Stop hunting Benji.

[Noel Brown]

He seemed pretty sharp as all I'm getting.

[Ben Bolan]

He's super sharp. You nailed it. Our next question, perhaps the billion dog treat question. No. Where did this happen?

[Peter Tilden]

Playoffs. We're talking about playoffs. You bet we are. Get in on the action. At DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NFL. Scoring touchdowns is key to winning in playoffs. And you can score big by betting on them at DraftKings, the number one place to bet touchdowns. Ready to place your first bet? Try betting on something simple like a player. To score 6, go to the DraftKings Sportsbook app and make your pick. New DraftKings customers can bet $5 to get $200 in bonus bets. Instantly download the DraftKings Sportsbook app and use code BobbySports. That's code BobbySports for new customers to get $200 in bonus bets instantly when you bet just 5 buc only on DraftKings Sportsbook, the crown is yours. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER in New York, call 877-8-HOPENY or text Hopeny 467-369 in Connecticut, help is available. For problem gambling. Call 888-78-9-7777 or visit ccpg.org Please play responsibly on behalf of Boothill Casino and Resort, Kansas 21. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void. In Ontario, bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see DKNG Co Audio.

[Jason Alexander]

I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the really no really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions, like why they refused to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor.

[Ben Bolan]

We got the answer.

[Jason Alexander]

Well, space junk block your cell signal. The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by.

[Ben Bolan]

Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us. How are you?

[Noel Brown]

Hello.

[Jason Alexander]

My friend Wayne Knight. About Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to really?

[Noel Brown]

Not really, sir.

[Ben Bolan]

Bless you all.

[Jason Alexander]

Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging.

[Noel Brown]

Really? That's the opening.

[Ben Bolan]

Really?

[Jason Alexander]

No.

[Noel Brown]

Really? Yeah, really? No really.

[Jason Alexander]

Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win 500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign Jason Bobblehead. It's called really no really? And you can find it on the.

[Ben Bolan]

Iheartradio app on Apple Podcasts or wherever.

[Noel Brown]

You get your podcasts.

[Ellie Flynn]

We want to speak out, we want to raise awareness, and we want this to stop.

[Noel Brown]

Wow.

[Ellie Flynn]

Very powerful. I'm Ellie Flynn and I'm an investigative journalist. When a group of models from the UK wanted my help, I went on a journey deep into the heart of the adult entertainment industry. I really wanted to be a Playboy model, Lingerie topless. I said, yes, please, because at the center of this movie murky world is an alleged predator.

[Noel Brown]

You know who he is because of.

[Ben Bolan]

His pattern of behavior.

[Ellie Flynn]

He's just spinning the web for you to get trapped in it.

[Noel Brown]

He's everywhere and has been everywhere.

[Ellie Flynn]

It's so much worse and so much more widespread than I had anticipated. Together we're going to expose him and the rotten industry he works in. It's not just me. We're an army in comparison to him. Listen to the bunny trap on the iHeartrap radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bolan]

Is it true that people still don't agree?

[Noel Brown]

Yes, it's true. Like many things that occur over such a massive timeline, some experts believe that this took place for the first time in Europe, others in the Middle east, others East Asia. Still not a particular consensus, as we've seen in many sit situations like this. There's probably some truth to all of those. They probably. There was some parallel things going on. It just kind of seems like that's pretty likely. But no, there is no scientific consensus at this particular moment. Though the Eurasian East Asian origin story does seem to get the most support. So this is a little bit more foreshadowing. We've alluded to some potential plot twists coming and we're about to get to.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, as the Cenobites. I wanted to see if you would do this joke. As the Cenobites used to say, put a pin in it for now. It's a Hellraiser joke.

[Noel Brown]

They also used to say, we have such wonders to show you as we do as well. Ridiculous historical wonders to show you. You know what's funny? Cenobite is the more I think about it, the more it sounds like sort of a dainty cinnamon roll thing you might get at Cenobite, you know? Cenobites, please.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, kind of like Buddy is naturally a name for a dog instead of a human.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, Like Max.

[Ben Bolan]

Max is one of the most popular names for dogs.

[Noel Brown]

Borderline is a stand in the way that Fido is. Max is making a face.

[Ben Bolan]

We looked at the statistics, Max, and again, that's. We'll get to the methodology later. Maybe in part two, but I'm changing voices now.

[Noel Brown]

No, voices are different.

[Ben Bolan]

Give me a deeper voice. Give me.

[Noel Brown]

You went higher then. You're higher. Noel's the deep voice now.

[Ben Bolan]

I want to sound like Walter White.

[Noel Brown]

Okay.

[Ben Bolan]

Apparently there are these celebrity voice changer.

[Noel Brown]

Filters on Instagram now.

[Ben Bolan]

Brave new world.

[Noel Brown]

Not necessarily in a good way.

[Ben Bolan]

Max, if you have any dog like qualities, they're all positive.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

I would say I'm a loyal person and I don't do anything else. Just that. Anything else.

[Jason Alexander]

You also like pets and a good walk.

[Ben Bolan]

A good walkies. I do like a good walk.

[Noel Brown]

That is true.

[Ben Bolan]

So we have learned a little bit about a fraught relationship. Max, I'm not sure why you decided to take Revenge on us for the statistics about names.

[Noel Brown]

Is my voice back to regular for.

[Ben Bolan]

A thing that is very much not my fault nor decision? Hey, you're the one who had to.

[Noel Brown]

Bring statistics into this. You could just ignore them like me. No statistics are there to be fussed.

[Jason Alexander]

Over and to be pedantic with.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, exactly. I'm just kidding. Your voice is normal again. Oh, great. When we try to figure out exactly when and how domestication happened, we are seeing an interlocking set of mysteries. And this is where you might say, hang on guys. Max, Noel, Ben, we as civilization, we know about DNA. Now surely we can just do some DNA testing, a little bit of forensic searching and this will tell us where and when and how wolves became dogs, eh? Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

I mean, it certainly hasn't stopped scientists from trying. There are all sorts of advances in research. But the problem is, as is often the case, some of this new information doesn't always provide answers so much as it raises new questions and can yield to further mudification of the scientific data and less consensus between scientists.

[Ben Bolan]

I like mudification.

[Noel Brown]

That's great.

[Ben Bolan]

That's great. So we know. Oh, let me correct myself here. It is a late Pleistocene, not Pleocene. This extinct late Pleistocene gray wolf is the nearest common ancestor to the dog. Meaning modern wolves are not the direct ancestral line. But secondly, we have to go back to the idea of genetic divergence. So everything we're learning about the DNA brings up that timeline question again. And this is compounded, or I'm going to use it, Noel, because I love that phrase. It's muddified by the fact that dogs and wolves, just like horses and zebras, are genetically close enough to reproduce with each other. They have crossbred so often that according to folks like Greg Larson at the University of Oxford, their genes are a bowl of soup.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like what we think of when we compare the DNA of humans and great apes. But this is way closer than that. Cause I certainly don't think anyone has ever suggested that humans and great apes, apes could, could mate with one another with any level of success.

[Ben Bolan]

There's the humanzee thing, but again, I guess that's stuff they don't want you to know.

[Noel Brown]

Definitely more the, the stuff of, of nightmares rather than interesting breeding choices.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, and there's a great article with Ed Yong, a journalist over at the Atlantic, talking to Professor Larson, where he says, you know, he goes, he goes 10 toes down on this soup analogy. He says, somebody goes, what ingredients were added, in what proportion and in what order to make that soup, meaning the long genetic story leading to dog hood. And he says the patterns we see could have been created by 17 different narrative scenarios. Shout out Jonathan. And we have no way of discriminating between them. And this is where we see some amazing research. Noel Larson teamed up with other scientists, human as far as we know. And to figure out the answer from wolves to dogs. He did what any good dog would do. He had to search. He had to search for the right bone.

[Noel Brown]

Ah, that was close. And what bone would that be, Ben?

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, it's called a Petrus. Here, we can play along at home. If you take your finger, take any one of your pointer fingers you wish and you put it behind your ear, sort of like mid distance behind your ear, you might feel a bump. Do we feel that bump?

[Noel Brown]

I do, thankfully.

[Ben Bolan]

Go a little higher.

[Noel Brown]

Higher up.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Looking at Max. You got it. That is your petrous bone. It's super dense, which means it's fantastic for retaining DNA. If you try to pull DNA out of most fossils, it's going to be contaminated. It's going to be riddled with microbes and history. You'll get a lot of DNA from a fossil, but a very small percentage of it will come from the, I guess we should say the owner of the bone, the creator of the bone. Right.

[Noel Brown]

Rather than the contamination over time. And a researcher named Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin found the perfect specimen in eastern Ireland's New grange. It's a 4800 year old monument that actually predates Stonehenge and the pyramids of Giza. Pretty big deal, very important site. Beneath its circular mound with massive networks of underground chambers, many animal bone fragments could be found. And among those were the Petrus bone of a dog boom.

[Ben Bolan]

Which means that if you can extract DNA from this petrus bone, you will get as high as 80% of the original, original bone owner's DNA. This is a burial site. It's super old. It's not necessarily unique because as we mentioned earlier, the careful ritualistic interment or burial of dogs. Forget the written word, it's older than that. It's older than agriculture. People were hanging out with their favorite doggo or their pooch way before they figured out how to grow crops on a repeatable, reproducible basis. Dogs have been buried like humans for thousands of years. They have been part of the family since before humans figured out how to write family trees.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you call man's best friend for no reason. Another important specimen found in Germany, the Famous Bonn Oberkassel dog. Bonn Oberkassel dog shows signs of some deterioration due to something called distemper, an advanced dist that suggested that it was cared for during a period of illness. And another important specimen was found in Germany known as the Bonn Oberkassel dog or hund. It showed signs of some physical deterioration due to a malady that it was apparently stricken with this dog, something called distemper. And it suggested some of the evidence on the bone itself that it had been cared for during this dog time of poorliness.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, so someone said, oh, no, Bon Oberkassel is sick. He has a highly contagious virus. And someone else said, what is a virus? And they said, nevermind, let's take care of our dog. This is, by the way, similar to research that showed us how intelligent the Neanderthal population was. They cared for their elderly. Another example would be a dog found in Tunisia in a Roman burial who was 18 years old when they passed away. He had missing teeth, definitely had arthritis. These are just the things we can know from bones, which means someone kept this little guy around and loved him.

[Noel Brown]

18 years old. The dog. The dog that's like, by today's standards, an incredibly long life for a canine.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, no kidding. And probably, hopefully a very well lived life. If we look at this, we'll go back to our buddy Larson. He teams up with Laurent France, and they take Bradley's research, that Petrus bone in Newgrange. And they say, okay, let's compare the DNA from there to something like 700 modern dogs. Now let's try to build out a family tree. And they found the tree, they built. Built again, all objective. It had this obvious fork in its trunk. Sorry, that's just a funny phrase.

[Noel Brown]

It is a funny thing. Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

It had this obvious fork in its trunk. There seemed to be two different dog dynasties.

[Noel Brown]

Ben, am I the only one that upon hearing fork in his trunk, I'm picturing like an elephant with two trunks? I don't know why. I'm just a silly guy.

[Ben Bolan]

I like that. I pictured an episode of one of those sort of Copaganda law enforcement shows where they say, well, the suspect did have a fork in their trunk.

[Noel Brown]

You mean like the murder weapon was a fork and they found it in the trunk of their car?

[Ben Bolan]

Well, we can't say anything until it goes to court. Fair.

[Noel Brown]

Okay. But back to the use of fork in its trunk. For our purposes, one of these forks included all the dogs from eastern Eurasia, like the Shar Pei, which is a delightful little sweetie as well as Tibetan mastiffs, which are much more big brute bruiser dogs. Exactly. The other one, the other fork in said trunk includes all of the western Eurasian breeds and the new Grange dog.

[Ben Bolan]

Which is the source of that original Petrus bones. So this leads Larson to a fascinating hypothesis or fascinating piece of speculation. We thought dogs were domesticated wild once, maybe 30 something thousand years ago in Eurasia. But DNA seems to indicate different populations of humans with little to no interaction may have independently domesticated canines not once, but multiple times parallel thinking. As said earlier, it makes sense because a good idea is a good idea.

[Noel Brown]

Absolutely. And the team responsible for this research also calculated that the two dog dynasties we're talking about here split from each other between somewhere around 6,400 14,000 years ago. Another pretty big swath. But the oldest dog fossils Dog fossil would be a great name for a band, by the way. Some sort of like metal core band are older even than that. Which means that when those eastern dogs migrated west into Europe, there were already dogs waiting on them there to buddy up.

[Ben Bolan]

And to Larson, this only makes sense if dogs were domesticated more than once. To be clear, this is not 100% accepted by the scientific world at large, but it's a pretty great guess. Again, it goes down to the timing. Dogs may have been maybe domesticated just the one time, split into other populations before the dawn of history or recorded history, or they may have been a great idea for various human communities at various points in time and across the planet. All we know for sure is that they were definitely domesticated in the ancient, ancient past. And they were probably the first animals to experience the profound change we call domestication today. And domestication is sometimes a misleading term or misunderstood. You could argue it's not a one way push, it is a two way street.

[Noel Brown]

It is a forkage trunk. No, it's a little different. Didn't quite land. So similar to some of our discussions on our other podcasts with our buddy Mat Frederick, stuff they don't want you to know, we do have to ask or are left with the question, what if those ancient wolves also domesticated us? We made along the way. To answer this and other questions, we're going to have to take a break here and start a new episode entirely on domestication. Ben, there's a lot to discuss. I know we've been teasing that. I'm so excited about getting into some of the minutiae of what domestication means because I learned a lot about this concept that I think is often misunderstood.

[Ben Bolan]

Agreed. And we can't wait for you to join us. Ridiculous historians. Learn about domestication. Send us your dog pics. Explore this with us. We're huge, huge fans of all things canine. We're also big fans of you. And you know who else we're big fans of, Noel? Our super producer, Mr. Max William Williams. You can also find your faithful correspondence on social media. Should thou sip Noel, where can people find you?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, you can find me pretty exclusively on Instagram, where I exist at the handle. How now, Noel Brown? Ben Bollen. I think I know yours.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, in a burst of creativity, I can be found calling myself Ben Bollen on Instagram.

[Noel Brown]

How did you lock that down?

[Ben Bolan]

How did you lock that, that down? A lot of good folks died at Ben Bullen HSW on Twitter or at the website benbolan.com Big, big thanks, of course, to Alex Williams, who composed this banging track. I still love it every time.

[Jason Alexander]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, same man I was gonna throw to Max, see if he wanted to shout out any of his social medias, but apparently he's. He's gone scorched earth with that stuff.

[Ben Bolan]

I've left everything. Twitter was the last one that went, and when it changed to X, I.

[Noel Brown]

I try to stay around, but I.

[Ben Bolan]

Just constantly was getting emails saying, someone's.

[Noel Brown]

Trying to access your.

[Peter Tilden]

Your account.

[Ben Bolan]

You know what?

[Noel Brown]

I'm done. Goodbye.

[Ben Bolan]

You'll have to find Max's cats Twitter. In the meantime, please remember, we are nothing if not open to discourse. And that's why we always like to recommend our complaint department. Please contact us directly 24 hours a day, seven days a week, every day of the year, @Jonathan Stricklandheartmedia.com Indeed.

[Noel Brown]

He loves to hear from you. And you know what? We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Jason Alexander]

I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the really no really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions, like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure? And does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign. Jason Bobblehead. The really no really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ellie Flynn]

We want to speak out and we want this to stop.

[Noel Brown]

Wow.

[Ben Bolan]

Very powerful.

[Ellie Flynn]

I'm Ellie Flynn, an investigative journalist, and this is my journey deep into the adult entertainment industry. I really wanted to be a Playboy model. He was like, I'll take you to the top. I'll make you a star. To expose an alleged predator and the rotten industry he works in. It's honestly so much worse than I had anticipated. We're an army in comparison to him. From Novel. Listen to the Bunny trap on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bolan]

Welcome to the Criminalia podcast.

[Jason Alexander]

I'm Maria Tremorchi.

[Ben Bolan]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together, we invite you into the dark.

[Noel Brown]

And winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Ben Bolan]

Each season, we explore a new theme. From poisoners to art thieves, we uncover.

[Noel Brown]

The secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.

[Ben Bolan]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Noel Brown]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.