The Gang Goes To Waffle House

Summary

Ridiculous History: "The Gang Goes To Waffle House"

iHeartPodcasts | February 17, 2026
Hosts: Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown
Super Producer: Max "Short Order" Williams

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Ben and Noel explore the fascinating, quirky, and iconic history of Waffle House—the beloved 24/7 Southern diner chain that has become part of American lore. The hosts recount their behind-the-scenes tour of the original Waffle House (now a museum), break down the restaurant's quirky codes and traditions, explore the origins of waffles, and discuss Waffle House's unique role in American disaster response. The tone is conversational, nostalgic, and peppered with humor, Southern charm, and plenty of Waffle House trivia.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A Personal (and Regional) Connection

• The episode opens with Ben and Noel discussing the lack of Waffle Houses in New York and their own memories of late-night visits in Georgia, highlighting the chain's deep Southern roots.
  • "I just landed in a different city...there are no Waffle Houses in the state of New York. But Pennsylvania, you can have a few." — Ben (00:52)
• Waffle House's menu code—"scattered, smothered, covered, chunked, capped, all of the ways"—is part of the local culture, and even functions as a bit of regional code language. (00:37)

2. Waffle House Origins: The Tom and Joe Story

• Founded in Avondale Estates, Atlanta, Georgia, in 1955 by Tom Forkner (a Georgia-born real estate agent with a military intelligence background) and Joe Rogers Sr. (a Tennessee native, WWII veteran, and former Toddle House manager).
• Their partnership began when Tom sold Joe a house and they became neighbors, leading to the eventual discussion of opening a new kind of restaurant.
  • "Tom sells Joe a house in Avondale because Tom's dad helped create Avondale Estates. And...they ended up being next door neighbors." — Ben (08:46)
• The founders initially considered opening a Toddle House franchise, but pivoted to creating an original business—one that emphasized sit-down dining and being open 24/7, which was unprecedented at the time.
  • "Joe said, 'My dream is a place where people can sit down and eat and not just throw away.'" — Ben (10:29)

3. Naming the Restaurant and Its Growth

• The original restaurant opened during Labor Day weekend, 1955, before it even had an official name ("the yellow building").
  • "They looked back at their first menu and said... the most popular choice was waffles... so we're gonna name ourselves after the most successful thing, Waffle House." — Ben (16:42)
• Waffle House's expansion was careful but explosive: from a handful of locations in the early 1960s (four stores) to 27 by the late 1960s, 400 in the 1970s, and more than 2,000 by 2026.
  • "By the time Joe and Tom had passed away in 2017, you would see 1,500 locations." — Noel (33:23)

4. Waffle Lore: Menu Codes, Jukeboxes, and Urban Myths

• Menu Code Mastery:
  Waffle House hash browns are ordered with a unique lingo. The hosts detail both the "code" (scattered, smothered, covered, etc.) and the backstory behind them—originally an organic system developed by cooks for customizing orders.
  • (See: [45:45] for full code breakdown)
• In-House Record Label:
  Waffle House produces its own music, which was once prominent on their in-store jukeboxes, with original songs like "There Are Raisins in My Toast."
  • "Waffle House has its own in house record label... Songs like 'There Are Raisins in My Toast' by Danny Jones, grill operator, and Bert, referring to the titular Bert of Bert's Chili." — Noel (36:25)
• Urban Myths:
  The hosts debunk the myth that Waffle House restaurants have no locks and are always open ("logistically it doesn't make much sense").
  • They discuss the "Waffle House Index," a real but informal metric for disaster severity—if Waffle House closes, the situation must be dire.
    • "FEMA judges how bad a national disaster is based on whether or not Waffle Houses in the area are still open." — Ben (37:35)

5. Regional Phenomenon and Expansion Challenges

• Waffle House remains heavily concentrated in the South; Georgia and Florida have the most locations. The chain's unique culture doesn’t always translate outside its core region.
  • "There are 2,038 Waffle Houses across only 25 states. That's only about half of the states, and the majority of them are still located in Georgia." — Noel (33:23)
• Tourists and non-locals are increasingly drawn by internet lore, viral videos, and the diner’s legendary reputation for "crazy things happening at Waffle House." (34:57)

6. History of the Waffle

• Waffles originated in ancient Greece as flat cakes and evolved over centuries; the modern waffle iron was patented in 1869 by Cornelius Swartwout, with National Waffle Day celebrated on August 24th.
  • "The actual waffle dates a lot farther back than I would have realized... ancient Greece around 4,000 years ago." — Noel (24:24)
  • "Waffle iron that we know today was patented... by Cornelius Swartwout... August 24, 1869... now celebrated as National Waffle Day." — Noel (26:21)

7. Waffle House as Community and Cultural Touchstone

• The diner is renowned as a gathering place for people from all walks of life and as a haven for late-night adventures (and disasters).
• The staff are lauded for their hard work and quick thinking, especially in unpredictable circumstances.
  • "Shout out to short order cooks... all eyes are on you. And those eggs are kept in these cool, like wire bins... overflowing with eggs." — Noel (42:03)
  • "It's usually as a result of the patrons... drunken, nighttime shenaniganry." — Ben (42:38)
• The chain and its lore inspire music, memes, and even indie band names ("The Saddest Little Waffle House in Eastern Pennsylvania"). (40:29)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Waffle House Origin Story

• “Joe said, ‘My dream is a place where people can sit down and eat and not just throw away.’” – Ben (10:29)
• “They said, okay, all right, forget Toddle House. We’ll open up our own place... And you know what? Why don’t we stay open all of the time?” – Ben (13:31)

On Expansion & Cultural Cachet

• “By the time Joe and Tom had passed away in 2017, you would see 1,500 locations... As of now... 2,038 Waffle Houses across only 25 states.” – Noel (33:23)
• “It’s something you read about, it’s something you hear about and you know, you’ll see all those breathless head[lines] of crazy things happening at Waffle House.” – Ben (34:58)

On the Waffle House Index

• “Since Waffle House never closes, FEMA judges how bad a national disaster is based on whether or not Waffle Houses in the area are still open.” – Ben (37:35)
• “So they are looking at essential type of operations and judging how bad things are based on the ability of these companies who have taken great lengths to be as available as possible during times of crisis. You know, it’s probably a good bellwether.” – Noel (39:24)

On Waffle House’s Uniqueness

• “Waffle House has its own in house record label... Songs like 'There are Raisins in My Toast' by Danny Jones.” – Noel (36:25)
• “Back in 2005, 2% of all eggs produced in the United States ended up at a Waffle House.” – Ben (41:49)
• “Can we also just shout out to short order cooks? It is such a tight operation... all eyes are on you. And those eggs are kept in these cool, like wire bins… overflowing with eggs.” – Noel (42:03)
• “Nine times out of 10, it’s the staff reacting sharply and decisively and professionally and, you know, keeping people safe.” – Noel (43:01)

Fun with Menu Codes (Hash Browns)

• “Smothered is, of course, cheese.” – Noel (43:57)
• “No, sauteed onions would be smothered. Covered is of course, just a good old American cheese product, slice right, melted over the top.” – Ben (44:00)
• “Chunks, which is grilled hickory smoked ham... Peppered, which is jalapenos... Diced, which would be grilled tomatoes. Capped, which would be grilled mushrooms... Topped, which uses their Burt’s chili... Country, which is sausage gravy.” (44:08–44:51)

Quintessential Waffle House Moment

• “Waffle House serves enough bacon to fully wrap around the earth.” – Ben (47:13)
• “Bacon around the earth. If that’s not peace, I don’t know what is.” – Noel (47:37)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Waffle House ordering code & regionality: 00:37–01:17
• Founders and Avondale Estates: 05:52–08:46
• Birth of 24/7 diner & name story: 13:31–17:30
• Expansion & franchise growth: 32:54–34:57
• History of waffles: 24:24–27:04
• Hash brown menu code: 43:45–45:53
• Waffle House Index & disaster lore: 37:35–40:03
• Staff shout-outs & late-night stories: 42:03–43:34

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Conclusion

This episode of Ridiculous History digs deep into Waffle House’s peculiar mythology, business acumen, and cultural legacy. From its WWII-era founders to its status as a FEMA disaster litmus test, the show illustrates why Waffle House is more than just breakfast—it's a symbol and a subculture. The playful banter, abundant trivia, and regional pride make the episode as satisfying as a late-night plate of scattered, smothered, and covered hash browns.

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For more, check out episodes of Ridiculous History wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[A]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartradio. Welcome back to the show, fellow Ridiculous historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning in. And let's hear it for the man, the myth, the legend, our super producer, Max Short Order Williams. Max.

[B]

Scattered, smothered, covered, chunked, capped, all of the ways. This might be nonsense. Talk to some of you folks not from the south, the southern climes here around Atlanta, Georgia, but we're talking about Waffle House ordering code.

[A]

So you're Noel Brown, I'm Ben Bullen. And actually I just landed in a different city this week, and I was looking for a Waffle House. Cause I thought it would be fun to visit. Before we record, there are no Waffle Houses in the state of New York. But Pennsylvania, you can have a few. And that makes sense to your point about the line of demarcation, because Pennsylvania is somewhere between the south and somewhere between the North. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah, it's sort of like partially, basically Canada. I mean, I think instead of Waffle House there, don't they have Timmy's Tim Hortons? Isn't that a thing in Pennsylvania? I think it's true.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Dad loves Tim Hortons.

[A]

It's a confluence of events. And so cast your memory back, folks. We've alluded to this a while ago, but we went through a Waffle House phase, I want to say, sometime last year. And we actually went to the Waffle House Museum because Waffle House was founded in our fair metropolis of Atlanta, Georgia, but now it's world famous, I think in large part due to the Internet, to be honest.

[B]

It's true. It is. Also, we've talked about this on our sister show stuff that I want you to know. The Waffle House Index, the sort of somewhat imaginary concept that if Waffle Houses close their doors because they are in fact open 24 hours a day, then the weather really must be bad. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Waffle House is known for its storied history for being virtually always open. And it's a very accepting place, I think it's fair to say. Having spent some time in the American south, all three of us, we have spent some very formative evenings at Waffle House. This is why we finally reached out to Big Waffle ourselves. Lo and behold, they hit us back. They couldn't be nicer people. They gave us an exclusive tour of the museum. We decided we were going to finally share the story. But quick disclaimer. This one's probably going to make you hungry. I think this is going to be one of Those where you and I both end the show going, is it time to eat lunch?

[B]

This is an I heart podcast, guaranteed human.

[D]

Over the last couple years, didn't we learn that the folding chair was invented by black people because of what happened in Alabama? This Black History Month, the podcast Selective Ignorance with Mandy B Unpacks black black history and culture with comedy, clarity, and conversations that shake the status quo. The Crown act in New York was signed in July of 2019, and that is a bill that was passed to prohibit discrimination based on hairstyles associated with race. To hear this and more, listen to Selective Ignorance with Mandy B. From the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[E]

In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze. Her husband Mike was on his laptop. What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever.

[F]

I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing. And immediately the mask came off.

[A]

You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband.

[E]

Listen to betrayal season five on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[G]

1969, Malcolm and Martin are gone. America is in crisis, and at Morehouse College, the students make their move.

[H]

These students, including a young Samuel L. Jackson, locked up the members of the board of trustees, including Martin Luther King Sr. It's the true story of protest and rebellion in black American history that you'll never forget. I'm Hans Charles.

[G]

I'm Menelik Lumumba.

[H]

Listen to the a building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[I]

It's me, Brandon Kyle Goodman, but you can call me Messy mom, because on my podcast, tell me something messy. My fantastic guests are their mess. Like singer songwriter Duran Bernard suggesting we reinstate adult sleepovers with friends.

[J]

Here's the thing. Get a group that's mature enough not to be putting your hand in warm water and tickling you. You know what I'm saying? I mean, granted, I might be doing but you know, like, listen to.

[I]

Tell me something Messy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[B]

Well, the good news, Ben, is there's a waho right down the street and they deliver. So I might even pre order my. I like. You know what I like, Ben? I like the Philly cheesesteak hash brown bowl. I'm a fan of that guy.

[A]

Yeah, that's a nice one, man. We know that that Is a more. In the grand scheme that's a more recent addition to the menu because as we saw when you, Max and I journeyed to the museum, they're. Their menu still had all the same basics, but they started adding stuff they didn't originally have the hashbrown code until much later because they. You know, Waffle House was founded in 1955.

[B]

That's right. And we'll get to the individual meanings of those. Those hash brown order codes. But that's right in Avondale Estates, which is like the next exit over. Not to dox myself from where I live. It is a really delightful little community to this day where there's a lot of fun little shops. It kind feels like a little German village in some ways.

[A]

Yeah, they tried to. It's a super weird pocket. I used to live very close to there. And the thing is folks, when you drive past, there's a stretch of several blocks in downtown Avondale that were explicitly designed to look like Shakespeare's the round to look like Shakespearean times.

[B]

I think I might have gotten my European wires crossed. It is a little bit more like old Stratford Upon Avon. I wonder. That's where Avondale comes. Who knows, Maybe it's one of those chicken or the egg kind of things. Speaking of eggs, the co founders of Waffle House are Joe Rogers Senior and Tom Forkner and Ben. I gotta say, bit of a missed nominative determinism opportunity for Joe's last name to have not been Spooner. We could have had Spooner and Forkner, the founders of Waffle House. But alas, that's not how history shook out.

[A]

Maybe next time, right? It's still not as on the nose as their names being like Joe Waffle and Tom Syrup or something. Syrup would be an unfortunate surname.

[B]

We gotta look up the history of the syrup line of families. Surely they exist. Tom was a Georgia boy dyed in the wool, I think, as they say, through and through, as you put it, Ben, in your wonderful research talk that you put together for this episode. He was born in Hawkinsville, Georgia, which is about two hours outside of here in Atlanta. And our buddy Tom, Mr. Forkner himself was a lawyer and a real estate agent and quite the golfer if he said so himself.

[A]

And he did kind of for a time. Also Tom was an intelligence officer for the Manhattan Project.

[B]

Record scratch. What? Okay, I didn't realize we were going to go nuclear with this Waffle House topic. But you never know what you're going to get with ridiculous history. So let's go to our second main character today, Mr. Joe Rogers, also a veteran, born in not a Georgia boy, but a Tennessee boy from the hollers of Jackson, Tennessee. During World War II. He also had a bit of a military background as well. Not in intelligence, but in the Air Force, where he flew B24s for. Sorry, not the Air Force, the Air corps of the U.S. army. Then in 1947, after spending his time doing his term, his stint in the war, he worked as a short order cook at a place called the Toddle House. Huh. Okay. Starting to see some influence here. That's over there in New Haven, Connecticut.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. That's where he was working at the Toddle House in New Haven. It was also a chain restaurant like Waffle House would go on to be. And Toddle House was based in Memphis. It was mainly a takeout joint. So Joe gets promoted and promoted because he takes his job seriously. He's quite talented. And he becomes the regional manager at Toddle. And as he becomes a regional manager, he has to relocate to Atlanta, Georgia. That's where he meets Tom. And the way they meet is kind of funny because Tom doesn't come to him with a business idea. Tom sells Joe a house in Avondale because Tom's dad helped create Avondale Estates. And not only did he sell the house, but they ended up being next door neighbors. I don't know if that's something real estate people like to do.

[B]

What's that? Oh, flip houses.

[A]

Well, yeah, like, if we were real estate moguls or we were real estate folks and we were selling houses to other people, would we want to sell a house that's right next to the one we live in? Like, do you want that neighbor smoke?

[B]

Interesting. I guess it does give you a little bit of opportunity to pick your neighbors to assert.

[C]

I would say no, because, I mean, any property. I've never bought a house. I've never bought a house, but I've rented plenty of houses. And the thing about it is it doesn't take very long to start finding small little problems. And so do you want to walk next door? Like, hey, you didn't tell me the foundation of this one part wasn't that.

[B]

Oh, that's a good point. That's a very good point. You might. Yeah, well, you know, that's. Look, we're only talking here about dishonest realtors, so presumably our buddy here was the salt of the earth when it comes to his business practices. I would like to.

[A]

I would like to as well. I mean, they could. We don't know for sure. What they did at some point, at least for time. Click. Because they. They would shoot the breeze with each other because they're neighbors and it's the South. Tom is like our idea guy. So he goes to Joe one day and he says, joe, do you want to get into business? Do you want to escalate our neighbor relationship? At first Tom says, I think we should build a Toddle house here in Avondale. And Joe said, I love your enthusiasm, Tom, but I don't think it's smart of us to build a Toddle House, because that's a take. My dream is a place where people can sit down and eat and not just throw away. Yeah.

[B]

You wanna build? Yes. Can I just. A quick aside, maybe for another episode. I was looking up to see if the Toddle House was still around, which it is not in terms of this original chain that we're talking about. But there was another place called the Toddle House, which was a very seedy and steamy nightclub in Culver City that operated from 1946 to 1953 until it was shut down for being a hangout for RAC and sex workers. And it had some really kind of tawdry advertisements that would run in, like the LA Times, for example. And there was this really cool article that described the scene in Fortnite magazine called the Los Angeles Bump and grind industry. How wicked is burlesque? Is it really harming anyone? Not to mention an advertorial in the vanguard describing the scene as girls, a poppin as a floor show with comedian, and a bevy of beauties who really keep things poppin. And a variety of potent cocktails served at the mirrored bar of the Toddle House. With lots of convenient free parking too, by the way. So it's totally different Toddle House, but I'm curious as to what kind of racketeers were hanging out.

[A]

Oh, definitely. And what year. What time span Was that again?

[B]

46 to 53, when it was closed down. And it also apparently had two serious fires and all kinds of shenanigans happening at the Toddle House over there in Culver City. But the Toddle House in question for today's episode was a place for a family meal. But to your point, Ben, they didn't have sit down service.

[A]

No. And also, I just. I had to do it. Look up the definition of toddle. And it works for both places. Well, it works more for the seedy place because the definition of toddle is to move with short, unsteady steps while learning to walk like a child.

[B]

Bit of a shame.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So maybe shuffle, maybe more.

[A]

If people are in their cups and they're partying, maybe they end up toddling out like a toddler.

[B]

The toddler.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

A little child who can barely walk. That's a. There you go. Never thought of the etymology of that. Mystery solved, Ben. So what did they decide when they realized that maybe bringing a franchise of the Toddle House wasn't quite the move?

[A]

Oh, yeah, they got even more ambitious. You could feel the electric brainstorming energy because these guys. Yes. Handed each other so hard, they said, okay, all right, forget Toddle House. We'll open up our own place. Anybody can come, they could sit down, they can have decent food. And you know what? Yes. And why don't we stay open all of the time? Okay.

[B]

That was the gimmick there. Yeah. Quite the. Quite the novelty. I suppose maybe There were the 247 places at the time, but this certainly would set it apart from the Toddle House, which I do not believe operated on a 247 schedule. So Tom recalled in an interview piece recalling this whole origin story, Joe saying to him, you build the restaurant, buddy, and I'll show you how to run it.

[A]

There we go. And that's a very common symbiosis between restaurant creators. You've got sort of the money guy, the funding, and then you've got the person who's been in the trenches of the kitchen, the chef and so on. And this was such a revolutionary idea. We've been spoiled, especially before the COVID lockdown, we've been spoiled by having so many 24 hour places. But back at this time, when these guys are brainstorming, the majority of restaurants or heck, businesses in general, they had strict hours. So if you were hungry on a holiday or late at night, you were kind of SOL until something opened.

[B]

So while we don't necessarily have evidence that this is the very, very, very first of its kind in terms of like a 24 hour, you know, grub joint is definitely a big deal. You're absolutely right, Ben. And the proof would in fact be in the pudding and. Or the delightful fluffy waffle batter. The very first Waffle House opened on a holiday, Labor Day weekend, 1955, when Tom and Joe welcomed folks into their original location over there in Avondale Estates, which I believe now is the site of the very museum that we toured, 2719 East College. And Ben, both you and I, for the longest time, had driven by that place and were curious as to why, you know, you couldn't just walk in and it does turn out that you do need to, you know, you gotta know somebody. They don't. You can't just walk in. You gotta have a guy on the inside.

[A]

Right, Right. You do have to be proactive. And we had driven past this for years and years. So when we were getting ready to do this episode, we finally did reach out. And it was a little bit odd for us to explain at first to say, hey, we're not a school that wants to bring a class here. We're three guys who do a podcast and live in the neighborhood. Please hang out with us.

[B]

And we are just, you know, fans of the place. It is good food. You know, it's consistent. The hash browns are pretty fantastic, frankly. And we are not being sponsored by Waffle House here, but they painted the building a bright yellow hue to catch the eye. And as we also know in some of our discussions here on ridiculous history and on Stuff They Don't Want yout To Know, yellow is a color that does make people hungry. Hence the golden arches.

[A]

Yes, that is absolutely true, Noel. And these guys are Tom and Joe. They're a perfect marriage of collaboration, because from the moment they opened, they were keeping close track of what the customers seem to want. So they looked back. They were always sort of recalculating stuff. So they looked back at their first menu and said, all right, we had 16 things available, but there was one clear popular choice. Everybody loved the waffles. So we said, we're gonna name ourselves after the most successful thing, Waffle House. We'll just call it that because that's why people are obviously coming. And you heard that right, folks. That means they opened the restaurant before they named it.

[B]

How about that? How does that even work?

[A]

It's just the yellow building. For a second. It.

[B]

I'm okay with that. You know, that's pretty genius, actually. The. The restaurant with no name. It is just a color. Sort of like Prince, you know, being a symbol. I think that's pretty. Pretty incredible. No, the Waffle House. You know, not to mention that it certainly bore a slight resemblance to the Toddle House, at least in its, you know, double consonant kind of middle section there. And it's. It's just fun to say Waffle House. Not to mention that it set it apart from all of the Pancake House houses that were much more features in the country.

[A]

And also a little peek behind the curtain. Tom would later say in other interviews, Right. As the company continued to grow, he would provide a spin on this narrative, on this origin story. And he said, I Wanted to call it Waffle House because it was also the item that made the most profit for us. Like, per dish.

[B]

They made the most splash of batter in that waffle iron to get you a nice, crispy, delightful confection. I can imagine the margins are pretty good in terms of favoring the proprietors there.

[A]

Yeah, like a pizza place or popcorn at a theater. Right. There are very high margins on it. So this is the weird thing. It's not an immediate Runway hit. Despite the fact that Waffle House is globally known today and much beloved in the United States. Joe was a double agent at this point because he was still working in Toddle House management.

[B]

I thought you were to say he was still working for the Manhattan Project. He was like a secret spy. That would have been cool.

[A]

That would have been cool, right? Project Operation Waffle.

[B]

So, dude, I can't believe there's not like, a government op called Project Waffle or Operation Waffle.

[A]

There has to be.

[C]

We don't know. I mean, we don't know what all hasn't been released.

[B]

It's true. And we always joke on stuff that. I want you to know that the more innocuous the name, the more. The more sinister the project.

[A]

Right. Like, so what does Project Waffle do, by the way?

[B]

Device.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a bioweapon doomsday device. Well, okay. Because Joe was worried about conflicts of interest, he sold his share of the restaurant to his Buddy Tom in 1956, just a year after they had opened. And Joe moved away from Atlanta for a while. A lot of people didn't know this. He asked the folks at Toddle House to make him a straight up partner. So no longer a regional manager, but give me some equity in this. They said no. And so Jo move back to Atlanta and then join back up with Tom. And then Tom eventually leaves his dad's real estate business. Now, they're both 100% committed to waffle House, so it better work or they're in trouble.

[E]

In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze. Her husband Mike was on his laptop. What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever.

[F]

I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing. And immediately, the mask came off.

[A]

You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband.

[E]

To keep this secret for so many years, he's like a seasoned pro. This is a story about the end of a marriage, but it's also the story of one woman who was done living in the dark.

[F]

You're a dangerous person who preys on vulnerable and trusting people. You're a predator. Michael Levengood.

[E]

Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside.

[A]

This is special agent Riegel, Special agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the.

[B]

US Government is onto him.

[A]

But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary.

[B]

Hear how they got it on the sixth Bureau podcast?

[A]

I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question of his life. And that's a unicorn.

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No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable.

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[A]

Listen to the 6th Bureau on the.

[B]

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[H]

Welcome to the A building. I'm Hans Charles.

[G]

Our Menelik Lumumba. It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr have both been assassinated and black America was at a breaking point. Rioting and protest broke out on an.

[H]

Unprecedented scale in Atlanta, Georgia. At Martin's alma mater, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest protest. It featured two prominent figures in black history, Martin Luther King senior and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson.

[G]

To be in what we really thought was a revolution. I mean, people were dying.

[B]

1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone.

[A]

The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago.

[G]

This story is about prohibition. It echoes in today's world far more than it should and it will blow your mind.

[H]

Listen to the A building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[I]

I'm Brandon Kyle Goodman, the host of the tell me something messy podcast. I wanted to create a safe, comfy place for all of us to talk about sex, relationships and what it means to be human. And baby, my fantastic guests are bringing their mind mess to share with the class, like singer songwriter Duran Bernard, suggesting we reinstate adult sleepovers with friends.

[J]

Here's the thing. Get a group that's mature enough not to be putting your hand in warm water and tickling, you know what I'm saying? I mean, granted, I might be doing but you know, and I think it's important for those examples of that of us just being gentle with one another, because the world and the people in it are already finding brand new ways to whip our ass every single day, 1,000%. So the least we could do is make strides to handle each other in a way that is a bit more.

[B]

Yeah, with.

[A]

That's.

[J]

That's. With care and a bit more mindful.

[I]

Listen to. Tell me something Messy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[B]

Ben, if we may, could we take a quick pause in our overarching story of the history of the waffle House to talk a little bit about the history of the waff? Because not only was it sort of a unique differentiator of putting waffle right there in the name to kind of separate it from the crowd of pancake houses that had been, you know, hugely popular in the United States, the waffle itself has a really ancient origin, as, of course, the pancake does too. There's a million ways of slicing a pancake or making a thing that's called. That could be compared to a pancake. But the actual waffle dates a lot farther back than I would have realized. I would have thought it was the humble Belgian waffle, But it is, in fact, something that. That goes back to ancient Greece around 4,000 years ago.

[A]

Okay, now, at this point, did they have the indentations?

[B]

It would seem not. It was cooked on heated stones, so it was something more resembling a pancake. But then during the Iron Age, we start to see iron cookware and iron plates and griddles that were used on both sides of these. Sometimes these created these little indentations of the way the metal was forged. And then you started to get into the much more modern kind of version of a waffle that we know today. When you had these irons that were forged with these literal extrusions on them that would make the squares that obviously just really make that butter and syrup just really hang on, cling on to every bite.

[A]

The surface volume. Right. Or the surface area. Excuse me. That's awesome, dude. I'm looking at pictures of this link you sent with these old school waffle irons. So we know. I feel like we can only really call them a waffle once we see those irons. Right.

[B]

I would agree. And that was the eye waffle iron that we know today was patented in Troy, New York, by a guy named Cornelius Swartwout. What a fabulous name. On August 24, 1869, which is actually to this day, day celebrated as National Waffle Day. And it wasn't until the 1910s that the electric waffle iron was introduced by General Electric, and then it became, you know, a staple in kitchens across the country around the 1930s. And then, of course, we've got frozen waffles that come and, you know, it's game on. That's in the 1950s with, of course, the iconic Eggo Leggo my egg.

[A]

I've got some of those in the freezer. And also, if I feel like I'm ever in a hot water with a girlfriend, then I will make them homemade waffles. It is a hack, and it works as long as you didn't do something too, too bad the day before.

[B]

Well, it's such a fun thing to do. 100%. Ben, I'm with you. Because you can add some little twists to the batter, put a little cinnamon in there, a little nothing, you know, add some syrup directly to the fricking batter, you know, put some fruits inside of there. Of course, all things you can do with pancakes. But there is just something about that texture of the waffle and the way it grips the butter and creates these little, you know, beautif pockets of deliciousness that kind of sets the waffle apart for me.

[A]

And it's so much bang for your buck in a culinary sense, especially if you're a restaurant. Right. And these guys in Waffle House, of course, I love that you're bringing the history of waffles here because it shows how much they owe to their predecessors. But they had an issue because you could say they overcorrected with calling it Waffle House. They sold other stuff. Right. Remember, we were there and we saw what burgers, and there was a T bone steak that was, I think, their most expensive item.

[B]

You may not have mentioned this, that the way the Waffle House museum, located in that OG Waffle House location is set up is to resemble the original layouts and including up to and including the original menus. And it's, of course, one of the fun things to see in places like that is the, like, T bone steak that cost like 40 cents or something. I mean, it wasn't 9 cents, but it was. I think the most expensive item was still less than a buck. I want to say.

[A]

I want to say you're right. Yeah, I think it was less than a dollar. And okay, also in these early days, when they're saying crap, we have to somehow convey to people that they can buy things that aren't just waffles. As they're fighting through this stuff, they're also respectfully disagreeing or skeptical about some of the other guys ideas. Joe's pitch of a restaurant that never ever closes privately seemed insane to Tom because at this time there was maybe like one other joint in all of Atlanta that was open all night. Maybe a couple, right? Maybe the Majestic or something. But we haven't checked that out yet. Joseph.

[B]

Majestic being a cool vintage y diner type place on Ponce de Leon near the also incredibly vintage and wonderful movie theater, the Plaza. And I'm pretty sure there's definitely a lot of cool history behind both of those locations that maybe we could talk about on another episode one day.

[A]

That'd be cool. Maybe we can. Maybe we can pitch ourselves to Majestic and get like free breakfast.

[B]

I really like their gyro.

[A]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Their yeero. I mean, I'm not to dox myself too much, but, you know, I live very close to that area and so I would say the gyro is just phenomenal solid. Only complaint is that poor post the lockdown, they are no longer 24 hours.

[B]

Ah, well, you know, it's a hard gig, not only for the management, but, God, for the employees. I mean, working those split shifts or whatever you call them, those overnight shifts, that is quite the slog. But Waffle House managed to do it despite some of the naysayers. Joe stuck to his guns and reminded Tom that the interstates were a big part of his business plan. Motorists traveling at all hours of the night, not to mention truckers.

[A]

Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, man. And he was spot on. He did manage to convince Tom that this was if it was a gamble, which it was, it was a worthwhile gamble. He said, you know, hungry folks exist all the time, and if we're the only people that can feed them, then we're the only people they'll go to.

[B]

Well, as you know, Ben, you've got to eat. Right, yes, sorry. We just always harp on that. It's such a lackluster tagline for the restaurant chain Checkers because it's just the lowest common denominator of like, you know, you know, you gotta eat something. It might as well be this trash.

[A]

It never promises quality. It doesn't say it's the best burger or the best fries.

[B]

That. That being said, I do like a checker burger. And it's checkers and rallies the same. Are they one of those like. Yeah, so it's kind of like Carl's Jr. And Hardee's.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

They're regional.

[A]

They're regional, but the money still goes to the guys at the time.

[B]

And speaking of the regional thing. There is a reason that a lot of that rebranding happens, right? Like, just things. People get used to certain things in certain parts of the country. And there's probably also a reason that Waffle House isn't exactly on every street corner in every state in the Union, because there are equivalents that are more popular in other parts of the country. Just like we don't get In N Out Burger here because they want to keep all of their restaurants as close as possible to their distribution hub so they never have to, you know, freeze the meat, which I can respect, but boy, oh, boy, would I love in.

[A]

The in and out or how Chick Fil A doesn't go to every place or, you know, especially when you're traveling abroad, folks, you will be surprised by the. The fast food stuff from the United States that we take as normal becomes phenomenally, phenomenally important. I'm trying to remember which airport it was in which country, but there was, like, one Popeyes, and it was always crowded because people had read about it on Instagram or TikTok or something.

[B]

Dude, remember when Popey' had that viral chicken sandwich? People were like, knife each other over.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It was admittedly a very good chicken sandwich. I was kind of on board with the hype.

[A]

Oh, sure. Yeah. I don't think it needed to be a culture war, but it was an amazing sandwich.

[B]

Few things do, Ben. Few things do.

[A]

So, okay, now it's 1960. Waffle House has survived. It's expanded. There are four different locations around the Atlanta metro area. And now, now they say we're going to up the gas on our expansion in a very real way. They choose to franchise. Right. So their vision at this point is inspired by other outfits like McDonald's. By the late 1960s, the same decade, they've got 27 Waffle Houses.

[B]

27 Waffle Houses. Moving into the 70s, they upped that number significantly to 400. And by the time Joe and Tom had passed away in 2017, you would see 1500 locations. As of now, when we sit here speaking to you, 2026, actually. Well, there may. I don't know. Who knows? They may have opened a few. This stat is From August of 2025, you're gonna see 2,038 Waffle Houses across only 25 states. That's only about half of the states, and the majority of them are still located in Georgia. So there is that kind of regional flair. And I'm sure they're doing their market research and figuring out where. Where to put the other ones. And being smart about it. Aren't there a lot in Ohio? I want to say.

[A]

I want to say we should look. They follow the interstates, I would imagine.

[B]

That's a good point. So if we go to wafflehouse.com there is a map and there. Yeah. Okay, so there's 15 in Arizona, one in all of New Mexico, 10 in Colorado, four in Texas. Wow. Actually, no, there's. Texas is like such a country unto itself. You got 68 and more Central Texas and then only four in Northern Texas. 30, 70 in Arkansas, 37 in Missouri and again, 152 in. What is that? Yeah, that's Kentucky, which makes sense. And then. Yeah, 10. 10 here in Georgia and 127 in Florida. So still quite a few places in the country that are not going to know much about. Waho.

[A]

Apparently.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And again, like we were saying, there. There is some slow expansion into other states like Pennsylvania. We'll see why as well, people want to go to a Waffle House now, even if they don't particularly consider themselves waffle fans. And it's because this has evolved past the idea of comfort food to a kind of legend. It's something you read about, it's something you hear about and you know, you'll see all those breathless head of crazy things happening at Waffle House. And then you'll see. I most recently saw a guy from New Zealand who traveled to the United States to try Waffle House.

[B]

It is a bit of a fascination for some folks. I totally feel you in a similar way that In N Out is for us here on the east coast, and I will argue and die on the hill that it is a very good burger, the old In N Out burger. Ben, we haven't. We're going to talk about a lot of this lore. I would love to just lead off with something that I think has always been a fascination to us is that Waffle House has its own in house record label and populates, or at least that's a bummer because a lot of the jukeboxes are now touch tunes machines, the digital ones. But back in the day it was always the old, you know, jukebox machines where you had the little tiny, or.

[A]

What do you call it, little labels.

[B]

With a A side and a B side and they produce their own tunes. Songs like There Are Raisins in My Toast by Danny Jones, grill operator, and Bert, referring to the titular Bert of Bert's Chili. I think the chili, yes.

[A]

Which goes on the hash browns and so on.

[B]

That's right. Yeah. And they did unfortunately league up with Touch Tunes in recent years, and I don't fully support that move. Move, Ben.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, maybe we're all becoming increasingly curmudgeonly. I, I, I'm not the biggest fan of Touch Tunes replacing old school jukeboxes, but so it goes. There's another, there's another legendary thing here, which is the idea that Waffle House doesn't have locks on the restaurant.

[B]

I remember that one.

[A]

I remember believing.

[B]

Logistically it doesn't make much sense. No, surely they, even if they're open, why do they're open all the time? Why, that's absurd. They gotta close down occasionally to do cleanings perhaps, or, you know, renovation, whatever it might be. Yeah, that's what we're gonna talk about. The Waffle House Index. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

This one should be familiar to every fellow child of the South. It's our favorite lore. It's similar to the Pentagon Pizza Index. The Pentagon Pizza Index argues that you can predict U.S. military action by seeing how many pizzas get ordered in parts of the D.C. area in Virginia. And we talked about that stuff. They don't want you to know as well. And here's the pitch. You know it, you love it. Since Waffle House never closes, FEMA judges how bad a national disaster is based on whether or not Waffle Houses in the area are still open.

[B]

Okay, well, first of all, as we've just laid out with our rundown of the Waffle House map, there are nearly enough of them evenly distributed across the country for that to make any kind of sense.

[A]

That's a great point. That's a great point. Right. So if something goes wrong in a state without a Waffle House, what does FEMA do? We do kind of have the answer. There's an excellent Snopes article about this that quotes some interviews from other journalists and even the former FEMA director. They say that Waffle House is a test for us. It's unofficial, but we do use it when we can because it tells us how quickly a business business might rebound. So this comes from W. Craig Fugate, who was the former FEMA director. And he says the success of the private sector in preparing for weathering disasters teaches us it's a temperature check for how the rest of the community is doing. And even though it's not official, yes, FEMA does check in on Waffle House whenever stuff goes wrong, but they also check in on other businesses. Of course they do. Not just Waffle House. It's also like Home, Home Depot or Lowe's or whatever.

[B]

Yeah, it makes sense. So Snopes, the conspiracy theory debunkers long standing operation there. We are big fans of had this to say. These companies have taken necessary steps to prepare. These companies have good risk management plans to ensure that their stores continue to operate when a disaster strikes and also provide basic supplies to people in their community. So they are looking at essential type of operations and judging how bad things are based on the ability of these companies who have taken great lengths to be as available as possible during times of crisis. You know, it's probably a good bellwether.

[A]

Yeah. In places like gas stations. Of course, now they think about it, hospitals, those are two hugely important things. They are essential services. And there's so much more we wanted to get to. Folks, we're so happy we were able to touch on the music a little bit before we. Before we call it a day and grab a booth with you in the future. Max, you had a band you wanted to shout out?

[C]

Yeah, it was a band that I saw open for Brian Fallon, lead singer of Gaslight Anthem, a couple years ago. The name of the band is the Warriors. But like worry. Like as I'm worrying.

[B]

Oh, not like warriors, come out and play Yang.

[A]

But like, oh my gosh, why haven't you called?

[C]

Exactly. They're worrying, but the lead singer, they. They were up on stage and right before they started the song, I was like, actually, I'm wondering. Whenever we play a song back up in Pennsylvania, where they were from, people don't really know what we're talking about, but the name of this song is the Saddest Little Waffle House in Eastern Pennsylvania. And everyone started laughing and they go, yeah, that's been a report. When in the south everyone gets it. And up north no one understands this.

[B]

So they're referring to a specific little straggler of a Waffle House that exists there. Or is it more of a.

[C]

It's.

[A]

It's.

[C]

I. I mean, I don't even know how much the song is really about Waffle House per se, but it's just like that idea of that w. That.

[A]

Sad Waffle House, that last beachhead, that.

[C]

One thing open in eastern Pennsylvania that's just there.

[B]

Also kind of a reference to the best little whorehouse in Texas.

[A]

Very much so. Or the. What's that? The Mountain Goat song. The best death metal.

[B]

Oh, the best ever death metal band out of Denton.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Check out our. Our. Our sister podcast. Stuff they don't want you to know for an exploration, literally, figuratively, of the underground bunkers of Denton.

[H]

Yeah.

[A]

And a random fact for you folks, back in 2005, 2% of all eggs produced in the United States ended up at a Waffle House. So it's. We're not blowing rainbows. It is a big deal for sure.

[B]

And can we also just shout out to short order cooks? And it is such a tight operation that they run there at these Waffle Houses. They've got an open kitchen. There's no effing around. You know, you can't be just goofing in a Waffle House kitchen. All eyes are on you. And those eggs are kept in these cool, like wire bins on top of the thing. They're just chock full, overflowing with eggs. And I've very rarely had, certainly, I think we've all probably had some interesting experiences at Waffle House. That's usually as a result of the patrons.

[A]

I would say it pretty much always is the result of the patrons.

[B]

And when I say I'm talking about drunk, drunken, nighttime shenaniganry, but.

[A]

Or like Kid Rock.

[C]

Have you guys seen the SNL Waffle House sketch?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I loved it.

[C]

I watched it. I was kind of like, this is actually kind of spot on. I mean, it's not every time you go to Waffle House, but everyone's been at Waffle House that time for sure.

[B]

And much like, you know, you see all these Florida man stories because of the way that Florida publishes, you know, the mug shots and all that stuff, the sunshine laws make it easier for that stuff to go out into the public record. I think when you have a 24 hour joint like waffle House, so accessible, you're gonna get some crazy videos that come out spots. And I think we've all seen them. But nine times out of 10, it's the staff reacting sharply and decisively and professionally and, you know, keeping people safe. So I really shout out to, you know, all of the folks that work.

[A]

At these places, just absolute legends when it comes to diplomacy and when it comes to empathy. And I'll say it, when it comes to drawing hard boundaries.

[B]

And we did promise a little bit of a peek inside of the code of ordering hash brown. I think I want to hear what each of our orders would be. But smothered is, of course, cheese.

[A]

No, sauteed onions would be smothered, covered.

[B]

Smothered in onions covered is of course, just a good old American cheese product. Slice right. Melted over the top.

[A]

We've got chunks, which is grilled hickory smoked ham.

[B]

Right. We have peppered, which is jalapenos so for you heat seekers out there, that's.

[A]

The easiest one to guess.

[B]

Jalapeno pepper on there. What else we got?

[A]

We got diced, which would be grilled tomatoes, capped, which would be grilled mushrooms.

[B]

And you know, it's interesting, I don't usually like canned mushrooms, but in this particular situation, they hit. I always get em capped and they are definitely canned mushrooms. But I am a smothered, covered, peppered, capped kind of guy and I like to get a double order.

[A]

We should mention you can also get topped, which uses their Burt's chili.

[B]

The Burt's chili.

[A]

You can get country, which is sausage gravy. That's one of the newer ones because on the menu they're named in the order of discovery. And this was an organic idea that came from the short order cooks themselves. That's cool. When they have friends come over or when they were making something, they would be like, oh, I know Jeremy. Jeremy loves mushrooms, so I'll just put some in his hash brown. Eventually they started codifying.

[B]

Sure. We love a secret menu item too. Or like a secret, you know, like a. Again, shout out to In N Out Burger for some of their secret ways. Animal style and all of that good stuff. How do you like your hash browns, Ben?

[A]

Oh, gosh, I'm a wild man. You know, I'll usually trend for the veggie options with the cheese.

[B]

What about.

[A]

What about you, Max? Or the chili? Chili and cheese.

[C]

Yeah, I go with the condition option, right?

[A]

Yep.

[C]

But traditionally smothered, covered, and cap would be my go to.

[B]

Yes, shout out to the condition. You bastard.

[A]

We'll get it one day we'll get it in control. One day we'll get on the other side of it. We also want we should know. Oh, we didn't. Probably don't have time for the details on this, but there's also this system that the staff invented regarding how to indicate an order. And it's all about the placement of condiment packages on the tray or on the plate. That's part of how you tell the cook a thing. Pretty stuff. Yeah. It's like a secret code.

[B]

Interesting. Okay. And I do want to end for my part anyway, today's episode with a shout out to my kid who has figured out how to make waffle house style hash browns at home. And the key is you grate a nice big old russet potato and then you need to rinse it to get some of the starchy bits off the kind of. And then you rinse it till the water kind of runs Clear. And then cook it in a cast iron skillet, press it in a thin layer, and then be patient. And then flip it, and then you get crisp, crispy on both sides. And it is just as good as at the Waffle House itself.

[A]

That's wonderful. That's awesome. Yeah.

[B]

And that flip is the most satisfying thing one could ever ask for.

[A]

They also. Just so you know, folks, the good people at Waffle House serve right now something like 145 waffles per minute, 341 bacon strips per minute. So that, oh, 230 orders of hash browns every 60 seconds. So that means every, every year, Waffle House serves enough bacon to fully wrap around the earth. Or to wrap around it in a line, not to encase it, but to circumnavigate it.

[B]

Yeah, Bacon around the earth. If that's not peace, I don't know what is.

[A]

There you have it, folks. Thanks, as always, so much for tuning in. Big thanks to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. I wonder what Jonathan Strickland, aka the Quizter, would order at Waffle House.

[B]

I'm. I'm gonna argue just plain. He's a plain hash Hashis kind of guy.

[C]

He's such a villain that he probably boycotts Waffle House. He's probably the one person in this world who doesn't like waffles.

[B]

He also gets his T bone. Well done, the madman.

[A]

Or he. And he doesn't even eat it because he doesn't eat beef.

[B]

Oh, that's true.

[A]

He looks down his nose and gets.

[B]

It to spite us.

[A]

Maybe he's one of those. Actually, have you guys heard of Toddle House people? Just insufferable. We're kidding, Jonathan. You're a 3 out of 5 guy in our book. Big thanks to who else?

[B]

Who else? Oh, Chris Racios and Eve Jeffcoats. Here in spirit, Alex Williams, who composed this slappin track that I wish it belongs on Waffle House jukeboxes. Bring back the old school jukeboxes.

[A]

I say. Yes, we're standing on that one. We're standing on business there. Big, big thanks to the rude dudes at ridiculous. Big thanks, as we said earlier, to all the staff at Waffle House for being just genuinely awesome. And big thanks to the management of Waffle House for having us over to the museum. Most importantly, Noel, thanks to you, man.

[B]

Oh, man. Thanks to you as well, Ben, for hosting the show with me and for doing the incredible research on this very near and dear to all of our hearts episode. We'll see you next time.

[A]

Folks.

[B]

For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.