The Most-hated Condiment? A Ridiculous History of Mayonnaise

Summary

Ridiculous History Podcast Summary

Episode: The Most-hated Condiment? A Ridiculous History of Mayonnaise

Podcast: Ridiculous History by iHeartPodcasts
Hosts: Ben Bowlin, Noel Brown, Max Williams
Date: February 19, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the fascinating and contentious history of mayonnaise—a condiment that divides eaters and inspires strong feelings both for and against. Ben, Noel, and Max take listeners through mayonnaise’s origins, cultural journey, business rivalries, scientific uniqueness, and continuing place in modern kitchens. The tone is humorous, conversational, and occasionally irreverent, in keeping with Ridiculous History’s signature style.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mayo: Love, Hate, and Identity (00:38–05:15)

• The hosts open with personal confessions about their prior dislike or love for mayo, highlighting its divisiveness and the cultural baggage it carries.
  • Quotes:
    • “Miracle Whip is not mayo. It's a mayo bait product of some kind.” — Noel [00:43]
    • “You can cover everything in mayo...as in, I haven't been able to eat mayo in over, like three years.” — Max [02:18]
    • “People who don't like mayo don't just dislike it. They hate this stuff.” — Ben [02:38]
• Comparisons are made to other sauces people enjoy secretly containing mayo: tartar sauce, aioli, fry sauce, and classic salads.
  • “It's crazy because it's often an ingredient...people who despise mayonnaise will gladly consume tartar sauce, fry sauce, remoulade...” — Ben [04:56]
• Amusing references to milk’s tropes in film, segueing into how some foods take on social meanings.

2. Mayonnaise’s Surprising History (06:33–15:15)

• Mayonnaise isn’t ancient like soy sauce or ketchup but relatively modern, with several possible origin stories.
  • “Mayo is not as old as I think we all assumed. Despite the fact that as very basic ingredients, it is very basic.” — Ben [06:13]
• French culinary tradition is central but contested.
  • The “Mahon” (Menorca, Spain) origin: A French chef improvises after running out of cream, blending olive oil and eggs after the French capture Port Mahon—thus, "Mahonnaise."
    • “Necessity is the mother of invention situations...Let's plop these guys together and give it a good whip.” — Noel [10:18]
  • Alternative French claims: “Bayonnaise” from Bayonne, or etymological links to “manier” (to stir) or “boyeu” (yolk).
• The French popularized (if not invented) mayo, making it a high-class sauce akin to hollandaise or béarnaise.

3. Mayo’s American Journey & Mass Marketing (19:06–29:29)

• Mayonnaise arrives in the U.S. in the 19th century as a luxury, served at elite New York spots like Delmonico’s.
  • “Delmonico's...offering the well to do, the 1 percenters of the Big Apple, a choice of chicken or lobster with mayonnaise.” — Ben [21:21]
• Richard Hellman democratizes mayo in the early 1900s by selling it in delis—eventually leading to bulk production as Hellman’s mayonnaise.
  • “He thought, let's get mayonnaise off of that high horse...opened a deli with his family in 1912 in New York City.” — Ben [21:59]
• Description of early packaging (wood, then glass) and branding battles (Hellman’s vs. Best Foods; blue ribbon as quality marker).
• Corporate consolidation: Best Foods and Hellman’s, now owned by the same company, split regions of the U.S.—like “Carl’s Jr. & Hardee’s.”
  • “Best Food mayonnaise is sold in the Western U.S. while Hellman's is sold east of the Rocky Mountains.” — Ben [28:55]

4. Mayo, Gelatin, and Culinary Oddities (28:01–32:47)

• The postwar era triggers bizarre cookbook recipes: gelatin salads, mayo-based desserts, etc.
  • “Mayonnaise cookbooks with just absolutely disgusting imagery. Like what you posted here, incorporating mayonnaise with another fad food, gelatin.” — Noel [28:01]
• “Gentleman's Salad” and “gentleman’s relish”: family tradition, questionable naming, and the dark side of vintage cuisine.

5. Global Mayonnaise: Kewpie’s Japanese Revolution (32:47–35:17)

• Touchiro Nakashima introduces mayo to Japan following a British/American exchange. Kewpie mayo (est. 1925) is egg-yolk-only and uses rice and apple cider vinegars, with a distinctive tube packaging and MSG for umami.
  • “Tochiro Nakashima...returned with a fascination for the white stuff...a real mad scientist of flavor.” — Noel [33:12]
  • “It only used the yolks of the egg...and of course the proprietary blend of vinegars, including rice vinegar...with...some sweetness.” — Noel [34:55]
• Kewpie’s branding: the cute baby mascot and its place as a “feature” ingredient in Japanese cuisine.

6. The Science of Mayonnaise & Aioli Debate (35:17–43:13)

• What is mayonnaise? An emulsion of oil, acid, and egg yolk, stabilized by lecithin in eggs. Careful whisking is key to prevent “splitting.”
  • “The egg has a very specific molecule...called lecithin, which is the emulsifier...that allows those two things...to be bound together.” — Noel [39:02]
• Aioli vs. Mayo: Aioli is traditionally just garlic and oil, no egg; today often interchangeable, but authentic aioli is more time-consuming and garlicky.
  • “Aioli is a little different. It doesn't actually have egg. It's more of a Mediterranean sauce...garlic and oil.” — Noel [41:40]
  • “If you see ‘garlic aioli,’ that's super dupes redundant. It's like saying VIN number or ATM machine.” — Ben [42:13]

7. Mayonnaise, Millennials, and “Identity Condiments” (43:13–44:54)

• The “millennials killed mayo” panic: Media reports about declining mayo sales blamed young consumers for snubbing tradition, but likely overblown, possibly “manufactured controversy” by Big Mayo.
  • “Mayonnaise sales dipped, and the establishment media said millennials were killing mayonnaise.” — Ben [43:58]
  • “Maybe so...a product like that has just been around for such a long time...you gotta shake things up.” — Noel [44:39]

8. Modern Mayo Manifestations & Final Takes (44:54–46:26)

• Heinz “mayochup,” burger and fry sauces—mayo’s shapeshifting ability to reinvent itself.
  • “I basically fry sauce.” — Ben [45:31]
  • “Mayo-chup...sounds like a not good Pokemon.” — Noel [45:38]
• Max, Ben, and Noel share their bottom-line: all are pro-mayo (even if Max is tragically allergic), and offer shout-outs to their favorite brands—Duke’s for the South, Hellman’s for the Northeast.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It's always reminded me of the experience of seeing an unusual animal for the first time. Like, you look at a giraffe and you think, how'd you get here, man?” — Ben [11:12]
• “What do you substitute for mayo? I guess sour cream would be the closest thing in my mind. And yet it still doesn't quite fit the bill.” — Noel [10:18]
• “Aioli is just a way to get people to pay more for mayonnaise than they should.” — Ben [41:10]
• “If you ever see, like, sort of a pinkish burger sauce that's pre sold, it sometimes has chunks of pickle in it, which sounds gross as well, but it's really good.” — Noel [45:38]
• “Maybe mayonnaise is the scoundrel of condiments.” — Ben [32:47]
• “I've never knifed a person for a sandwich in my life.” — Noel [20:24]
• “It was self-proclaimed blue ribbon sort of thing. And that logo is still what you see on the jars today.” — Noel [23:55]
• “Mayonnaise cookbooks...incorporating mayonnaise with another fad food, gelatin, to create these monstrosities of culinary despicableness.” — Ben [28:18]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:38–02:30 — Mayo: initial hot takes, love/hate dynamic, Max’s Mayo allergy
• 06:33–15:15 — Origins and etymology of mayonnaise; Menorca vs. Bayonne debate
• 19:06–21:43 — Early American adoption; mayo in high society
• 21:59–25:02 — Hellman’s story; transformation into mass-market staple
• 28:01–32:47 — Gelatin salads and mayo’s weird mid-century phase; “gentleman’s salad”
• 32:47–35:17 — The Japanese Kewpie mayo phenomenon
• 35:17–41:40 — Science of emulsion; false aioli equivalencies
• 43:13–44:54 — Millennials and mayo; identity condiments
• 44:54–46:26 — Fry sauces and “mayochup”; hosts’ final verdict
• 46:44–End — Light banter; producer and community shoutouts

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Closing Thoughts

This episode traverses mayonnaise from its scrambled origins through cultural and culinary reinventions, poking fun at its reputation and the drama surrounding its role in Western foodways. Fun, irreverent, and detail-rich, it’ll change how you see the humble, oft-maligned spread next time you face the squeeze-bottle conundrum.

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Transcript

[Ben Bullen]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartradio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our super producer, Max the Freight Train Williams.

[Max Williams]

Choo choo.

[Ben Bullen]

You too, Max.

[Noel Brown]

Miracle Whip. I'm sorry, I was taking part on that one.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Miracle Whip is not mayo. It's a mayo bait product of some kind.

[Max Williams]

It's the margarine of mayo.

[Noel Brown]

There you go.

[Ben Bullen]

No one's. No one's used the tagline. I can't believe it's not mayo.

[Noel Brown]

Yet it's true. I can believe it, man. We're talking about this off mic. You're banned, by the way, and I'm Noel. I thought mayo. So gross. Just the idea of it, the white stuff slathered. You know, words like that come to mind. But I think it happened when I, you know, hit my late 30s. I love it, man. I'll slather a french fry in that stuff.

[Ben Bullen]

Like froth it up. Yeah, like the Dutch. Yeah. Noel Brown, Ben Bullen here, returning with you folks in our continuing series on all things condiment. Today, we're going to tackle a particular sauce that is surprisingly divisive. Like you were saying, Noel, this thick, creamy bastard sun of eggs and oil is known as mayonnaise. It's one of the French words that every American knows. And the texture and color of this can be kind of off putting, right?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, I made my case for that. But again, I've moved forward. I still don't like. It's weird, man. I don't like it when a sandwich you get from a fast food joint, for example, is overflowing with the stuff. It's squishing out the sides. Don't think anybody loves that. That's why the. The phrase light mayo is a thing. But I will drown a french fry in the mayo. Love it.

[Max Williams]

You can cover everything in mayo. Like, I want double that mayo. But you also got to remember that I'm speaking from a condition. As in I haven't been able to eat mayo in over, like three years.

[Noel Brown]

No, I thought maybe mayo was a la vinegar in it.

[Ben Bullen]

And distance makes the heart grow fonder.

[Max Williams]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Look, we know that mayo is so divisive, folks. So much so that people who don't like mayo don't just dislike it. They hate this stuff. And it's crazy because it's often an ingredient. I recall years ago, guys, we were in a conversation with our good friend and former colleague Paul Mission control Deccant about milk. And he and our Pal Casey Pegram had this ongoing argument about whether milk is something you drink on its own or whether it exists only as an ingredient.

[Noel Brown]

Well, it depends on the person, I guess, you know? And also, I love the trope of villains in movies drinking milk. Like Anton Chigurh in no country for Old Men. They realize that he's just been there because of the condensation on his glass of mil. Another great use is Inglourious Basterds. Yeah, for sure.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Also in Get Out. I don't want to spoil it, but there's a twist wherein a character turns out to be a real baddie, is seen eating Froot Loops, I want to say, in Milk. And there's something about like, she's picking out certain colors of the Fruit Loops to show her inherent racism.

[Ben Bullen]

And then there's also, of course, Clockwork Orange. Oh, gosh.

[Noel Brown]

There we were, sat in the Korova milk bar, making up our razoo docs of what to do with the evening. It's so weird because that's milk plus, by the way.

[Ben Bullen]

Milk plus. Yeah. For all the droops,

[Noel Brown]

this is an iHeart podcast.

[Ben Bullen]

Guaranteed Human. Reggie, I just sold my car online.

[Noel Brown]

Let's go, Grandpa. Wait, you did?

[Ben Bullen]

Yep, On Carvana. Just put in the license plate, answered a few questions, got an offer in minutes. Easier than setting up that new digital picture frame.

[Noel Brown]

You don't say.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow. Talk about fast.

[Max Williams]

Wow.

[Noel Brown]

Way to go.

[Ben Bullen]

So, about that picture frame. Ah, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.

[Noel Brown]

Car selling made easy on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.

[Ben Bullen]

It's strange, because some people who despise mayonnaise will gladly consume tartar sauce, fry sauce, remoulade, aioli, and, well, maybe not aioli, but they'll also eat, like, chicken salad, tuna salad. What's the other one? Potato salad.

[Noel Brown]

I like a potato salad, but only if it's made with sour cream, not a mayo based one. Don't. Don't see that. I'm weird, man. I'm weird. I don't like mayo in certain things. Will not touch a chicken salad, no matter whether Matthew McConaughey made it or not. No, I think that's tuna salad. But I do love a good. And I love an aioli. And I think I was mentioning to you as well off mic, Ben, that it was when I realized that there were fancy mayos and mayos that had more flavors that my brain sort of adapted to the more basic of mayos.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, dude, I appreciate you Saying that because as we're gonna see in this episode, we are all three, all four of us, you tuning in at home. Ridiculous historians. We're going to have some hot takes on this condiment. I think restaurateurs figured out you can charge way more for mayo by zhuzhing it up and calling it aioli. We'll get to it. But for now, pull up some sando bread, start prepping your chicken salad. Don't tell Nol you're doing it. And let's begin. The first thing we have to establish here is, guys, mayo is not as old as I think we all assumed, despite the fact that as very basic ingredients, it is very basic.

[Noel Brown]

And, you know, like a lot of staple culinary things the French are responsible for, like a hollandaise sauce or what is it? A beurre blanc, you know, I mean, the French are responsible for so many basic sauces.

[Ben Bullen]

They have a job for it. It's the saucier.

[Noel Brown]

The saucier, indeed. And while mayo is in fact, very basic in terms of its ingredients. We've got eggs, oil, and again, there are other options for, like, flavoring it and stuff.

[Ben Bullen]

Just some kind of acid.

[Noel Brown]

There you go. Some kind of acid. But it's all about in, like, how you whip it and, like, the consistency for it to get to the right. It's not just about slamming all these things together in a bowl. You gotta kind of know what you're doing to get the right vibe. The right mayo vibe.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, like that old classic rock band set. You gotta hold on loosely, you know, there's an art to it. And we are big sauce fans. That's why we have this continuing series about condiments. It's no surprise that tons of sauces in use today have ancient roots, like soy sauce. Dude. Or olive oil. We established earlier that ketchup existed for thousands of years.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, it's much more of a fish sauce kind of situation, if I'm not mistaken.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, which is why you can get mushroom ketchup in the UK still, or banana ketchup in the Philippines. Before the wider world started using tomatoes, ketchup was the thing. This is not the case with mayonnaise, which is odd, right? It's kind of recent, like you said, Noel. It's an emulsion of oil, egg yolks, some kind of acid, usually vinegar or lemon juice. Historians say the earliest footprints of mayonnaise trace back to Egyptians and Romans because used a combination of olive oil and egg as a dietary supplement. But folks, people did not figure out modern mayo For a hot minute. So now we got several curdled competing origin stories. There is a ton of debate about who actually quote unquote, invented mayonnaise and why we even call it mayonnaise in the modern day. Now, Noel, if you do me a favor, I'd like to lean on your French pronunciation for. For this first origin story.

[Noel Brown]

I will do my very best here, Ben. This is one of those ones that got. That has those upside down looking letters with the little, little lippy hangy guys on the bottom. I think I got this one. We're talking about Louis Francois Armand de Vegnero de Plessis Duco Re Richelieu. Like the cardinal from Three Musketeers. Remember him? He was a baddie. He was the big bad.

[Ben Bullen]

You nailed it, man. Thank you so much.

[Noel Brown]

I don't know about nailed it, but I landed in the. In the. In the vicinity.

[Ben Bullen]

You French fried it?

[Noel Brown]

French kissed it.

[Ben Bullen]

French kissed it, yeah. This is the Seven Years War in 1756. And the idea is that our pal here led the French forces to victory in a place called Port Mahon. M A H O N. This is in the Mediterranean island of Menorca in Spain. And the story goes, it's kind of similar to the origin story of Ranch. As we'll see. This guy had a chef and the chef was preparing a fancy meal to celebrate the military wins. But lo and behold, the chef discovered he did not have any cream for his usual fancy French sauce. So he improvised and used a mixture of olive oil and eggs instead. He called this Mahonez after Port Maho.

[Noel Brown]

That's so interesting. It's one of those, what is it? Necessity is the mother of invention situations, I guess, where it's like, oh dear, I've no cream. Let's see what we've got laying around. Let's just plop these guys together and give it a good whip. And it's cream, like. And yet it so isn't right, Ben. Like it's got the tang of, say, a sour cream. And it has a similar consistency, but it is so its own thing. There's nothing else quite like it. And that's what makes it such a. I don't know, like a singular ingredient that you can't really. What do you substitute for mayo? I guess sour cream would be the closest thing in my mind. And yet it still doesn't quite fit the bill.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, Mayonnaise in the pantheon of condiments

[Noel Brown]

has always reminded me of a pantheon of condiments. The gods of condiments. It's beautiful thing.

[Ben Bullen]

It's always reminded me of the experience of seeing an unusual animal for the first time. Like, you look at a giraffe and you think, how'd you get here, man?

[Noel Brown]

Like a platypus. And you're like, why?

[Ben Bullen]

Why? Why?

[Noel Brown]

He's got a venomous anal gland or something. On a. On a platypus.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Spikes under his little, little, little hoofs.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes.

[Noel Brown]

I'm sorry.

[Ben Bullen]

Platypus is only egg laying. Venomous mammal.

[Noel Brown]

It's a weird guy. Yeah, the platypus.

[Ben Bullen]

It's a heck of a remix of a goof.

[Noel Brown]

There you go, Ben. But no, I also love the idea of perhaps a rogues gallery of condiments, which would probably include stuff like. What's that really gross one? Mustardo.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, come on. Is it gross?

[Noel Brown]

You said it was gross. I thought you didn't like it. I thought you were the one that was slamming Mustardo. Not in the. Like, you were like, you know, knocking them back.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, I mean, it's not normalized for us.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, but it would. I think it would go in the rogues gallery. I think it would go. It would be in the Arkham Asylum of flipping condiments. Yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. It's a harlequin and a joker team up for sure. Max just popped on and the pop off.

[Noel Brown]

He jumped off the pop on and a pop off.

[Max Williams]

I came to say, isn't it mustard? It's like fuzzy fruit.

[Ben Bullen]

It's weird, candied almost. It's like mustard candy.

[Noel Brown]

It's almost like a. Like a. Yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

So gross.

[Noel Brown]

It's mustarda di fruta. Spicy mustard and fruit preserv. So it's mustardy, chunky jelly. Basically.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. And off mic, folks, we had a conversation, I guess a year or so back where we were, we were talking about our favorite condiments and what should be next in this series. That's where I was pitching mostardo. And yeah, you're right, Noel. I said I thought it was gross. I have tried it.

[Noel Brown]

The more I'm looking at it, though, Ben, it almost feels like a chutney mixed with the mustard, which inherently sounds kind of maybe good. Like one of those papaya dogs you get in New York and put a little mustard on there. I think I might be here for that. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to derail us talking about an unrelated condiment. But back to Menorca. No, I think we're moving past Menorca now to the French city of Bayonne.

[Ben Bullen]

Well, there's another version of that same tale of the Seven years War. And they will argue that the chef was learned a sauce recipe that pre existed salsa mejonesa from the Catalan speaking natives of Menorca. Not everybody agrees, as you're saying. Some French chefs will tell you this oil and egg mixture was called, as you said, Noel, bayonets from Bayonne.

[Noel Brown]

You got your mayonnaise, bayonnaise and your Holiday Inn as a really dated hip hop reference.

[Ben Bullen]

I love outlanded hip hop at all.

[Noel Brown]

It's got ham in it, though. Bits of ham.

[Ben Bullen]

Well, yeah, Bale. Known historically for its ham.

[Noel Brown]

Known historically for its ham. Yeah, the region, rather. I made a mistake. I thought that their mayonnaise, that mayonnaise had little chunks of ham in it. I'm a goofball. Sorry about that. No, but the region is known for sort of like the. Oh, gosh, what's the Iberia? Spanish ham. Iberica. Exactly. Very similarly notable ham region.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes. We love a notable ham like William Shatner or Matt Berry.

[Noel Brown]

Thank you.

[Ben Bullen]

So bayonnaise today is going to refer to a mixture of mayo and a certain type of chili pepper. But whatever the origin story, this sauce later gets called mayonnaise, a French term because of a printing error in a cookbook. So, fellow etymology nerds, welcome to our weird hangout. Some people speculate the word mayonnaise comes from the French word manier, meaning to stir or to blend by hand, or boyeux, meaning yolk, like egg yolk. There is a famous dude, a French chef named Marie Antoine Carre. He substituted vegetable oil for olive oil in his recipe. And this was a game changer. It produced a lighter version of mayonnaise that became popular throughout Europe, the United States, and as we'll see the rest of the world. But it's kind of no, Max. It's a bit like the origin of palm frite or french fries.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Never tell a Belgian that you want to order french fries. They'll get a little bit saucy with you.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, for sure. French fries is such a colloquialism anyway. I mean, pommes frite doesn't even translate to french fries.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, it's just fried potatoes.

[Noel Brown]

It's sort of a little bit presumptuous to go straight to french fries. I've always found that to be the case because surely things have been fried since time immemorial. Oils have been long a key staple for, you know, cooking things since time immemorial, whether it be putting it directly into a pan or A cauldron or boiling human beings in it. I think we've long known that oil, when heated up, can definitely have a frying effect. So it does start to become one of those parallel thinking situations, right?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Which makes sense. I mean, just to slice up a potato and throw it in the grease, it's not the most unique take.

[Ben Bullen]

No, it's like, who figured out pants? Someone at multiple points.

[Noel Brown]

And we got these legs. The shape is already predetermined. All we need to do is wrap them in fabric.

[Ben Bullen]

And we call that path dependency in terms of how our predispositions determine the innovations we later create.

[Noel Brown]

Well, and a potato has also long been a staple foodstuff because of how resilient it is, how well it stores. I mean, obviously we know about the great potato famine and the use of potatoes in Ireland and how that was such a staple food there that it was hugely devastating when that famine took place. But it just makes sense. Like, I'm the worst at letting my fresh veggies and fruit rot in my fridge. But if I buy a bag of potatoes, you better keep rest assured, they might have a few eyes on them, but you can pop those right off. Pop those babies right off. And good as gold. Yukon gold.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Nice. Nice one there, man. We also know, side note, folks, that potatoes and tomatoes didn't make it to Europe for a while. It was part of the great transfer. I love your point about parallel thinking, because most historians are going to argue that these basic ingredients exist around the world for most of civilization. Some kind of egg, some kind of oil, some kind of acid. And most historians will also argue that what we call mayonnaise, the way it's created now does date back to Mahon during the Seven Years War. And the competing theories that largely come from French culinary historians are kind of. They're kind of attaboys to the French culinary ego. They're invented after the fact.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, 100%. And initially, this thing, this sauce, this very French sort of culinary leaning sauce, was considered pretty high brow.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, yeah, yeah. So there is no denying, if the French did not invent mayonnaise, they definitely popularized it. Right. Like Chick Fil A says, we didn't invent chicken, just the chicken sandwich.

[Noel Brown]

It was very humble of them. And they didn't invent the chicken sandwich.

[Ben Bullen]

No, they didn't.

[Max Williams]

Absurd.

[Noel Brown]

I guess they're just implying that theirs is so good it constitutes inventing the thing because all the ones that came before it were not properly chicken sandwiches.

[Ben Bullen]

Was it our Waffle House episode where you And I talked about the Popeye Chick Fil A culture war.

[Noel Brown]

We did a little bit. We also just talked about how those brands hit a little different in other parts of the world. Yeah, Popeyes in particular is like, such a novelty, but, yeah, the culture where between Chick Fil A and Popeyes. I think what we did mention as well on that episode was when that viral Popeyes chicken sandwich was hitting and people were, like, knifing each other over the thing in drive throughs and they were, like, running out of it. It was crazy. I jumped on the train. It was a good chicken sandwich. But that was when they were really giving Chick Fil a run for their money. And it probably kicked off some of that.

[Max Williams]

Wait, you jumped on the train of knifing people and running out of drive through?

[Noel Brown]

I jumped on the train of liking that chicken sandwich, thank you very much. And finding it superior to the Chick Fil A sandwich, personally.

[Max Williams]

Just wanted to clarify for our listeners.

[Noel Brown]

I've never knifed a person for a sandwich in my life.

[Ben Bullen]

As Noel Brown's unqualified lawyer, I will confirm that he has never, in fact, stabbed someone.

[Noel Brown]

I've brandished chicken. I'll brandish.

[Ben Bullen]

He has brandished. We will give the.

[Noel Brown]

Wildly. Give me a sandwich.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Now, like you're saying, mayonnaise makes this intercontinental journey to the United States in the late 1800s, mid-1800s. And as we said, it's very, very much a luxury at this point. It's only served in fancy pants restaurants like Delmonico's. Have you guys ever been to Delmonico's the steakhouse in New York City?

[Noel Brown]

Delmonico's the fancy. It's one of those fancy steakhouses where you get everything a la carte, Right. You get your little side sort of like Musso and Frank in Los Angeles

[Ben Bullen]

would be a comparison. That's a great comparison because Delmonico's is, at this point in 1838, they are offering the. Well to do, the 1 percenters of the Big Apple, a choice of chicken or lobster with mayonnaise. And mayonnaise is presented on the same level of hollandaise or bearnaise sauce.

[Noel Brown]

Totally. Like a fancy sauce. Exactly. It wasn't until old Richard Hellman came along, he decided to bring mayonnaise to the people. Yeah, he thought, let's get mayonnaise off of that high horse.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, he thought it was high fluting. And so in our democratization of man. There we go. He said, as we imagine in ridiculous history, cinematic universe, he said, mayo for the people. You Guys are too fancy. And he opened a deli with his family in 1912 in New York City. And they prepared mayonnaise at home. They used it as a binding material for all sorts of different salads. The kind of salads you don't care for, like chicken, tuna, so on. And they would serve these dishes at the deli. This is so similar to the idea of ranch, right. They. They would serve the things at the deli and the mayo eventually overshadowed the salad. So by the 1920s, customers are going up to Hellman and they're saying, hey man, can I just. Can't just get straight up mayonnaise?

[Noel Brown]

Get a taste.

[Ben Bullen]

Let me, let me just get a little spoon.

[Noel Brown]

Let me hit that mayo.

[Ben Bullen]

Come on, let me hit that mayo. I don't need the chicken. I don't want the tuna. I want just the straight up mayonnaise. And Richard's not too precious. He and his spouse start manufacturing mayonnaise in bulk. This is the origin story of Hellman's Mayo.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, I love this. This detail that they initially their packaging was made of wood.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. It was a different time.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, that's weird. In no time, however, they did switch to the glass jars that we know and love today. I suppose I'm more of a Dukes guy, but we'll get to that. Around 1925, he sold two versions of the stuff. He used a blue ribbon to mark one of them. Was the implication here that it had won some sort of mayonnaise prize?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, just like a blue ribbon. The beer, I think it might have

[Noel Brown]

been self proclaimed blue ribbon sort of thing. And that logo is still what you see on the jars today. What was the other version?

[Ben Bullen]

The other version was an also brand. Like you will know you're in a creepy place if they will differentiate between the trash beer they serve you.

[Noel Brown]

Okay.

[Ben Bullen]

You could have Paps Lou ribbon or just Pabst.

[Noel Brown]

It was like, yeah, fair enough. So we got the blue ribbon version and then the like Drek version.

[Ben Bullen]

I guess it's whatever's left over at the bottom of the mixing. Mixing bowl. I don't know. I don't know.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, don't need none of that. Let's stick with the blue ribbon. So demand did start growing. They established a factory for making the stuff in Astoria, Oregon. But Hellman's wasn't the only jarred mayonnaise that was starting to hit the market. We've got the also very humbly named Best Foods, which also was selling a pre made version of mayo over on the west coast. Pacific Northwest, I suppose. So they. This was, you know, competition, for sure.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. And then we see monopolization, right? In 1927, Postum Cereal Company, which is the predecessor of General Foods, they did

[Noel Brown]

Postum Cereal Company become Post?

[Ben Bullen]

I think that's a good question. What do we have? Let's do it live.

[Noel Brown]

Hold on a second. Post Cereal Company. Is it Posts? Survey says yes. Postum was created by CW Post, and it's the original product that became the Post Cereal Company.

[Max Williams]

Side note, from my serial research from a number of years ago, I found out that Post was a real pill. He was a interesting. No, all the cereal guys, as we know, the Kellogg's were interesting. Post himself was a interesting Kellogg.

[Noel Brown]

Just like putting stuff up with people's butts.

[Max Williams]

Well, that was the other Kellogg that was a main Kellogg.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, my bad. There was two brothers, John Harvey.

[Ben Bullen]

They kind of, you know, weirdos.

[Max Williams]

But the weirder Kellogg was not the main serial catalog.

[Noel Brown]

Okay. I always got that. Got those wires crossed, and I don't think I ever uncrossed them.

[Ben Bullen]

So I always wonder what it would have been like hanging out with them both at once. One of them would have said, I have opinions about grains, and the other one would say, I have opinions about yogurt in the worst possible way.

[Noel Brown]

I'll tell you where to stick your grains.

[Max Williams]

Right.

[Noel Brown]

You know who would have really gotten along with John Harvey Kellogg? Who? RFK Jr. They would have done you big time.

[Ben Bullen]

Max, we got to catch you up on this. We recently catch you up on this. We recently discovered that the current US political official, RFK Jr. Has engaged with AI chatbots for nutritional advice to people in the United States. And one of the things that this AI Chatbot will do is advise you on the most healthy vegetables to put up your butt.

[Noel Brown]

And we put forth the root ones are probably the best option because of the shape.

[Max Williams]

This AI Chatbot also help him with his poetry.

[Noel Brown]

Ooh, man, this is a PG show we can't get. Although that would have been right at home in the. What was it? James Joyce? Oh, poetry.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, my gosh, guys, just in the field, I got in another argument about Finnegan's Wake. I've got to stop doing it.

[Noel Brown]

But that. It's not good.

[Ben Bullen]

I think it's beyond good and evil.

[Noel Brown]

Wow.

[Ben Bullen]

It is a series of letters purporting to be a novel or English.

[Noel Brown]

Okay. So it's just. It's some musings.

[Ben Bullen]

It's. I. Come on. I can't catch strays on this one, guys. My professors are still Alive.

[Noel Brown]

You don't want to get in front of that freight train, Ben, Mayonnaise does become. We're getting to the point where it's about to become a bit of a craze where we start to see, like, mayonnaise cookbooks with just absolutely disgusting imagery. Like what you posted here, incorporating mayonnaise with another fad food, gelatin.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes.

[Noel Brown]

To create just these monstrosities of culinary despicableness.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. By this point, Postum Cereal has acquired Best Foods and Hellman's Mayonnaise.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, the aforementioned Monopoly.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. So now we've got a. What is it? Carl's Jr. And Hardee's kind of thing.

[Noel Brown]

Mayo cartel.

[Ben Bullen]

A mayo cartel. I love it, dude. So Best Food mayonnaise is sold in the Western U.S. while Hellman's is sold east of the Rocky Mountains.

[Noel Brown]

To your point, Ben, that's exactly right. The Carl's Jr. Vs. Hardee's, the Checkers vs. Rallies. You know, there are basically the same exact restaurants that like to brand themselves differently depending on what that part of the country is more used to.

[Ben Bullen]

And we want to give a special shout out to Dukes Mayo.

[Noel Brown]

I do like a Dukes. Yeah. I'm a Duke's guy. I don't know why. I'd be very curious to do an A B taste test to see if it really is better. But somewhere along the line, I got sold on Duke's being superior to Hellman's.

[Ben Bullen]

That's because of where we spent our formative years.

[Noel Brown]

That's what it is, isn't it? It's a Southern thing.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Duke's is a very popular brand right in the American South. And there are countless mayo alternatives catering to vegans, vegetarians. You know, you got your eggless mayo, you've got stuff for folks with allergies and so on. And this is almost a different episode. But no, you. You nailed it, man. People have done a lot of weird stuff with mayonnaise, especially, I want to say, in like the post World War II environment. Right. Everything is gelatin and mayonnaise. And how can we combine these? What can we put in there? I just can't imagine eating mayo jello.

[Noel Brown]

I think I maybe have mentioned before, and we've definitely done an episode if you just do a little search on gelatin based fad foods and this kind of thing. My mother was really fond of something that her mother was really fond. So it's one of these generational disgusting desserts that you have to make at every dinner party. Something called gentleman's salad, which in and of itself sounds freaking disgusting. Like, I mean, sorry. Not to be too icky.

[Ben Bullen]

No, no, please.

[Max Williams]

Euphemism not.

[Noel Brown]

It's gotta be, right? And I don't even know. I'm gonna Google it. Cause I don't even know if my mom just made this up or her mom made it up.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah.

[Max Williams]

Are you sure you wanna Google that on a work computer?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, it's fine. No, it's. No, this is. It's. It's. Here. Grandma's lime green jello salad recipe with cottage cheese and jello and pineapple. It's like this gelatinous green loaf that has, like, horseradish sauce on it and, like, mayo in it. And lime green jello. And it is. And cottage cheese. It's just the worst. And my mom would always make it in honor of her mom. Evaporated milk, pineapple, lime jello, mayonnaise, cottage cheese and walnuts.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, sorry. Also, I love how sketchy any food sounds when you add gentlemen's to the front of it. When you add that possessive, we see Gentlemen scoundrels. Pasta salad. I can't remember if I told you guys, I went down this rabbit hole and I ordered something called gentleman's relish.

[Noel Brown]

Is that mostardo?

[Ben Bullen]

It was during the mostardo phase. It is. It's like an anchovy paste, basically. But it's gotta be gentleman's relish.

[Noel Brown]

Gentleman's relish. Gentleman's salad. That just sounds gentleman's scoundrel.

[Ben Bullen]

Come on.

[Noel Brown]

Scoundrel. That's fun. This doesn't quite make sense grammatically, though. Like, what? Isn't a gentleman to be the scoundrel? This is a scoundrel that belongs to the gentleman.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, he's a dirty rascal.

[Noel Brown]

Or he's like his familiar.

[Ben Bullen]

Like in that Steve Martin film, What was it? Dirty Rotten Scoundrels.

[Noel Brown]

Dirty Rotten Scoundrel.

[Ben Bullen]

It sounds like a con man's pasta.

[Noel Brown]

So the gentleman scoundrel would be there. You got the jets. Your gentleman and then his partner, who is the real rogue, who's doing the crime. And then the gentleman is the one that's sort of the straight man of the duo.

[Ben Bullen]

And maybe mayonnaise is in that rogues gallery, right? Maybe mayonnaise is the scoundrel of condiments. There was one guy from Japan who absolutely fell in love with the idea of mayonnaise. Tochiro Nakashima, 1910. He's an intern dude.

[Noel Brown]

An intern at Japan's Department of Agriculture and Commerce. And he went to the UK and the US and he Just like you said. Just. Got. Just drowned himself in mayo. He returned with a fascination for the white stuff, as well as orange marmalade, which is hugely popular with the Paddington bears of the world and mayo. And you would use it to make potato salad. So this guy was like a real mad scientist of flavor. You describe him very aptly, Ben, as a Willy Wonka of what we call today. This is also a tease. For the next episode, we're gonna do, by the way, a Kewpie mayonnaise, which is so cool, if only in the way that it's packaged. If you go to the cool Asian food, specialty food stores, it comes in, like a. Like a plastic tube, like you would use to decorate a cake.

[Ben Bullen]

It looks like you're buying an action figure, you know?

[Noel Brown]

Also true. Yeah, but doesn't it come, like, in, like a.

[Ben Bullen]

Like a.

[Noel Brown]

Like a kind of like a plastic bag almost?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, it has a plastic bag around the harder plastic container. There you go of the mayonnaise, and it's a little bit sweeter than, say, your dukes or your helmets.

[Noel Brown]

And much like a lot of Japanese products, the branding is just adorable. You got a little baby, little naked baby with a little dippity doo hair, you know, swoop on the top and. Yeah, it really does hit. It's. It's used in.

[Ben Bullen]

It is.

[Noel Brown]

It is. Let's put it this way. It is a feature. When it is used in a dish, it is described as almost like a little something extra.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. And given some lactose restrictions in that part of the world, mayonnaise will often replace what people would use dairy for.

[Noel Brown]

You know, and the big difference that made this thing so umami and rich was the fact that it only used the yolks of the egg rather than the whole thing. And also, of course, the proprietary blend of vinegars, including rice vinegar, which is much milder, and apple cider vinegar, which I think Ben would give it some of sweetness that you're accounting for.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, that's a good call. We know that. According to the Kewpie Mayo website, our buddy Tochiro makes this in 1925 to, quote, help improve the physiques and health of Japanese people by making delicious, nutritious mayonnaise so widely available that it becomes a daily necessity. Anyway, as you said, egg yolks, science, vinegar. Maybe we talk a little bit about the science of mayonnaise. And let's break down the aioli thing. Like, mayonnaise is an emulsion. It's things that shouldn't usually hang out together.

[Noel Brown]

Right. And that Therein lies the key of how they're it's whipped and how it's combined to create that emulsion. If I'm not mistaken, by the way, just a quick ad on Cupe. Another key ingredient, msg. Just putting that out there. And we've talked about the demonization of msg. I think it has seen a bit of a reassessment and it is basically just a flavor additive that adds a little bit of that umami as opposed to the way it was demonized in order to other American Chinese restaurants.

[Ben Bullen]

Right. Check out our episode on Chinese restaurants in the United States. MSG is short for monosodium glutamate and it is delicious.

[Noel Brown]

And another thing about kewpie too is you'll find that it's a bit yellower, which is what you're gonna get when you're making a real fancy mayo aioli. Like the absolute ghost whiteness of prepackaged and mass marketed mayo. It's not what it's gonna look like. If you make up a batch yourself, it's gonna have, you know, those egg yolks are gonna show and it's gonna be a little more yellow. And that is maybe what people might typically refer to as an aioli and

[Ben Bullen]

as an off putting color. Right. People are very sensitive to color when they're eating something.

[Noel Brown]

I think white is way grosser than yellow.

[Ben Bullen]

You know, man, as a partially colorblind person, I would defer to you.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, it's just, I mean, I think it's a personal, you know, taste thing for sure. But when I think of when I see a yellow or mayo, I feel like it's fresher. I feel like it's made with real eggs because it's got, it's imparted that, that, you know, hue.

[Ben Bullen]

Now, a lot of people would say that they feel a yellowed mayonnaise is older. Right. Has maybe been in the sun, has maybe gotten.

[Noel Brown]

That's a good point, Ben.

[Ben Bullen]

Close to expiry.

[Max Williams]

Maybe this is me just getting over sinus infection, but it's got kind of a snot like look to it.

[Ben Bullen]

Son of a guy.

[Noel Brown]

Don't make it grosser than it already is. Max, I told you, I just came around to mayo in my late 30s. Well, don't do this to me.

[Ben Bullen]

Let's get ready, folks, to dive into some science. So again, an emulsion, two things that shouldn't usually hang out. If you just pour oil into a bowl and then you pour water into a bowl, you will see that they segregate, they stay Separate. And no matter how.

[Noel Brown]

Like oil and water, Right?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. We even have a phrase for it. So no matter how ardently or vigorously or how long you stir, those two liquids will evaporate, eventually go away from each other, and the oil's going to float at the top, the water's going to go at the bottom. So why does mayonnaise work? Now, at this point, we have established that two key ingredients of mayonnaise don't hang out together. We need a hero. And our hero in this is the

[Noel Brown]

humble egg, the hero egg of today's story. Like the hero pig in that episode of Nathan for you. So the egg has a very specific molecule in it that I was not particularly aware of, called lecithin. Lecithin. I'm gonna go with the S sound. Lecithin, which is the emulsifier in the equation. This is the thing that allows those two things that normally would not mix to be bound together.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Kind of like our super producer, Max.

[Noel Brown]

That is a good point. Max is quite the great emulsifier, Williams.

[Ben Bullen]

So you make mayonnaise by combining eggs and vinegar. And then as you whisk to your earlier point, Noel, you can't add the oil all at once. You got to hold on loosely. You get a few drops in at a time while whisking. This is going to be familiar to any chefs in the crowd or home cooks. You have to do this over time. You have to distribute those oil molecules evenly into what will become your mayonnaise. If you pour too much or if you whisk like an amateur, you're going to break the mayo. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Also often referred to as splitting. Like, if a sauce is splits, then you have whisked it poorly or just not done it correctly in terms of the rate at which you add the oil. And so you're going to get some. Some splitting. And that usually manifests itself in terms of seeing clumps and oil rising to the top and it just not having that consistency that you want. And emulsify liquid like that.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Because of the chemistry involved, it's incredibly difficult, essentially impossible to salvage your mayo if you break it or if you split it. Noel, before we go, we've got to whisk together some hot takes. All right. We joked a little bit about aioli in the beginning. I have often accused aioli of being nothing more than a bit of marketing to make things more expensive. And I want to apologize to you and Max for complaining about tapas earlier, because, remember, I went through that phase where I was super against tapas I said they're just appetizers with a different word. Cheese sticks should be $5, not $17. Aioli is just a way to get people to pay more for mayonnaise than they should.

[Noel Brown]

You know, it's funny, Ben, while those terms are today often used super interchangeably, historically, aioli is a little different. It doesn't actually have egg. It is more of a Mediterranean sauce, like a tzatziki kind of, where it's garlic and oil. It's a garlic and oil emulsion, while mayo is an egg and oil emulsion. But they are. They do kind of, you know, result in a very similar tasting and appearing, you know, condiment. But aioli is typically a little more pungent since it's got that garlic.

[Ben Bullen]

Mm. Yeah. It's a traditional condiment in Provence and Catalonia. Right. So true. Aioli, to your point, is also an emulsion. It's a little bit more time intensive to create olive oil and garlic. So if you are looking at a menu in God save you or tapas restaurant and you see something that says garlic aioli, please know that is super dupes redundant. It's like saying vin number or ATM machine.

[Noel Brown]

It really is. Yeah. Garlic is the key ingredient of what makes the aioli. That is one the of of the two things that create the emulsion or that are emulsified together. Aioli gets its creamy consistency and that pale color from emulsifying those two ingredients with a bit of coarse salt added. Because garlic doesn't have strong emulsifying properties like egg yolk, it does take a ton more effort to properly emulsify olive oil into the garlic.

[Ben Bullen]

So. So one last thing we got to do.

[Noel Brown]

It's like making a risotto. Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Or making a hollandaise. Right. We've got to give a shout out to a phrase that I think we all are fascinated by. Back in 2018, US media got in a huge hubbub over something called identity condiments. Do you guys remember if you like identity politics? Yes, dude.

[Noel Brown]

This culture war. I kind of don't. I mean, I guess I've associated or seen that line of mayo being like, white people food, you know, or like, mayo's too spicy for that, Karen. You know, things like that, right? Is that what we're talking about?

[Ben Bullen]

It came about due to a decline in mayonnaise sales. Right. During a period of time where a lot of younger people like us were struggling to have a job, dreaming of buying a house or dreaming of being able to afford going to a restaurant. Mayonnaise Sales dipped, and the establishment media said that millennials were killing mayonnaise. That turns out to be a little bit overblown. And I don't know about you guys, but I suspect Big Mayo had a hand in that culture war.

[Noel Brown]

Maybe so. Yeah, maybe so. I mean, you know, a product like that that has just been around for such a long time and, like, the main players are still kind of the first to market, you know, from the olden days. You got to shake things up from time to time.

[Ben Bullen]

Sure. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

And we hope, manufacture a little controversy.

[Ben Bullen]

There we go.

[Noel Brown]

Get your product back in the news.

[Ben Bullen]

Have a manufactured beef. Right. Like celebrities that secretly. We love each other. Here we are at the end of the history of mayonnaise. Looking boldly to the future in terms of all sorts of condiment combinations, like fry sauce. Or remember when I think it was Heinz did that thing where they started making maychup or mayo chup? They started. Yeah, they started combining.

[Noel Brown]

Okay.

[Ben Bullen]

I basically fry sauce.

[Noel Brown]

Right. I do say gross only because the word is weird. Mayo chup. I don't like the way that sounds like a.

[Ben Bullen]

Sounds like a not good Pokemon.

[Noel Brown]

I agree. But I do like, you know, a classic burger sauce is. So you can make that up with a combination of mayo and a little ketchup and a little smoked paprika, for example. There's different ways of doing it. But if you ever see, like, sort of a pinkish burger sauce that's pre sold, it sometimes has chunks of pickle in it, which sounds gross as well, but it's really good. I really like that a lot.

[Ben Bullen]

So where do we land in terms of one of the most divisive condiments in the modern world? Mayo? Yes. No for it against it.

[Max Williams]

I'm for it heavily for it. And I want to toss it in here because he's kind of part of the show as well. One of the biggest mayo fans I've ever met, Alex Williams. He loves mayo. No way.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Thank you to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Thank you to Alex Mayo Williams, who composed this track. What do you think about Jonathan Strickland? Is he a Mayo guy?

[Max Williams]

He's a Miracle Whip guy.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

It's true.

[Noel Brown]

I wonder if he rubs it on his bald head at night to try to regrow his hair. Isn't there. Haven't there been discussions of mayo as, like, a cure all as well? Like rubbing it on your body? Did I make that up? I think I might have made that up, y'.

[Ben Bullen]

All.

[Noel Brown]

Sorry to end on such a gross note. We love you, Jonathan. Oh, yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quizzter. Thank you. And we look forward to Jonathan returning soon. AJ Bahamas Jacobs. Who else?

[Noel Brown]

Well, gosh, Christopher Osiotis. And he was Jeff Coat and Spirit, of course. The rude dudes are ridiculous crime. If you dig us, you're gonna dig them as well as Rachel. Digspinish, Lance the doctor herself of underwater explosion.

[Ben Bullen]

And no thank you. I. I hope everybody has enjoyed this exploration as much as I have. And Max, we got to fix the condition. You said it's the vinegar. That 86 is the mayo for you

[Max Williams]

and the and the esoter.

[Noel Brown]

We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This is an iHeart podcast.

[Ben Bullen]

Guaranteed Human.