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- [00:00]
A
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartradio. Welcome back to the show, fellow Ridiculous historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning in. In, let's hear a Pong and a ping for our super producer, Mr. Max Williams.
- [00:37]
B
Max, the ping of Pong, the King of Kong. Williams.
- [00:43]
A
Max, if you were a pizza, you would be a Supreme Pizza. And I mean that.
- [00:46]
B
Oh, my God.
- [00:47]
A
With my heart. Yes.
- [00:48]
B
Thank you, guys. What constitutes a Supreme Pizza? Is it just all the toppings or is there an agreed upon, you know, because not all pizza places have the same topping option. So a Supreme, it kind of seems like a little bit of an innocuous category.
- [01:03]
A
Yeah, it's kind of the eye of the beholder, because sometimes it's the entirety of the restaurant's pantheon of toppings, and then other times it's, you know, the olive, the onion, the pepper. But they'll. They'll save the specialty meats, I find.
- [01:19]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [01:20]
C
Little note here. I have not read this yet, but according to PizzaPlanet.com, which is under their news section, they have a fascinating history of supreme pizza. So that just screams ridiculous history feature episode.
- [01:33]
B
Well, wasn't Pizza Planet the pizza place in the toy store cinematic universe? Did I make that?
- [01:38]
A
You might be right.
- [01:39]
C
It was totally.
- [01:40]
A
Oh, oh, we forgot to introduce ourselves. Also, I'm Ben Bullitt. This is the one and only.
- [01:45]
B
You know who we are.
- [01:46]
A
This is the one and only Noel Brown, who is also our research associate for this episode, which has little to nothing to do with pizza, but maybe we'll get there. Tangentially, you did drop a bit of.
- [02:00]
B
A hint with your categorization of Max's pizza type being Supreme. Is that a. There should be, like a test for what is your pizza type like a Myers Briggs situation? And I agree with you. Max would be supreme. We are talking about ping pong today. The history of ping pong. And with the release of the Timothy Chalamet film Marty supreme and all that media hoopla surrounding it. Did you see all this, guys? It's pretty amazing. I was kind of blown away by the on the ground sort of bootstrap marketing that old Timmy was doing in the style of Supreme. The brand, like, Marty supreme jackets and I think hoodies and custom little ping pong balls. And dude actually stood on top of the Vegas sphere, which is already in the perfect shape for this. They made it look like a Marty supreme ping pong ball. And there was a blimp. I know you love a blimp, Ben.
- [02:54]
A
I love a blimp. Noel.
- [02:56]
B
So this is probably more so than in recent memory, at least making the sport of table tennis a little bit more in the zeitgeist. And I haven't seen it yet, but full disclosure, I actually had tickets to go see it and then something came up. But I very much am looking forward to it and people seem to be enjoying it. It tells the story of Marty Mauser, an ambitious young shoe salesman in New York of the 1950s with dreams of becoming an international star in the rising world of table tennis. And we'll get to a little bit later, bit about who Marty Mauser is based on in real life. But the inspiration for a particularly the famous vintage video game that we talked about recently would also have come from today's topic. Table tennis, of course, talking about pong.
- [03:44]
A
Ah, yes, yeah. One of the first legendary video games in all of history. And Noel, one of the initial questions I had when we first started talking about this is the difference between nomenclature and names. So table tennis, correct me if I'm out of school here. Table tennis is the official name for this recreation, but ping pong is the same thing, just a different, less official name.
- [04:19]
B
I guess it could be considered like a colloquialism. You know, it's fun to say, obviously. It is, of course, onomatopoeic, I think would be the word for it, describing with words the sound that the ball makes as it pings and pongs across the table. These are onomatopoeic terms, if I'm not mistaken, Ben, date back to the Far east in the late 1800s. Imitative of the sound of the paddle or bat striking the ball being the ping, and then the pong being the sound of the ball bouncing off the table.
- [04:55]
A
Oh, right on. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense in my head here. And also I think we're all on the same page that, sure, table tennis, we'll say it if we're in an official meeting, but if it's just us hanging out together, ping pong is clearly the more fun, cooler name. Right?
- [05:14]
B
Yeah. It would seem that some of the official governing bodies of the sport, you may be in an effort to be taken seriously. Maybe there's a history or a little feeling of maybe being looked down the nose from, you know, by the sports community. Ping pong might be considered a little diminutive, but when are you gonna pass up a chance to say fun words like ping and pong? So we're gonna say that a bunch, I think any chance we get today. So why don't you all at home. Grab your commemorative Marty supreme paddles or you got em. And let's serve up the fascinating and ridiculous history of the sport of table tennis.
- [05:51]
A
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Yeah, and it is fascinating. That's the perfect word for it. As you found, the origins of what we call modern ping pong or table terrace can be traced back to England in the 1800s. And like a lot of things in that time, this started out as a leisure activity for the upper crust.
- [06:24]
B
I repeat, they had their own onomatopoeic name for it. Don't know if they quite nailed the sound though. Ben. I know we all probably will enjoy saying this one a little bit as we have a fondness for overemphasizing our H's in British parlance. Whiff hwaf, if you will. Or if you whill. Yes, whiff hwath, perhaps waf maybe would be a little more Brit. That was what they referred to it as. And it was played using super rudimentary equipment initially. Things like these lightweight. Well, they would initially be corks, champagne corks or wine corks. But then they evolved eventually into these little celluloid balls. They had these crude paddles or bats that are often themselves made out of cork and parchment, sort of fashioned together from stuff that was hanging around. And this was taken. The influence for this very DIY sport, indoor sport, was taken from the outdoor sport of lawn tennis. Okay.
- [07:20]
A
Yeah. So it's a natural evolution and now we can play it inside and we're not held hostage by the weather. Right. So that all makes sense. We also know that if we Fast forward to 1890, there's an Englishman named David Foster who comes up with this concept and he says, you've got tennis, you've got a table. Why don't we combine the two?
- [07:51]
B
It's true, Ben. And it just shows how they were really just thinking about this as an extension of lawn tennis, because lawn tennis is really just kind of tennis. If I'm not mistaken, it was using a nicely manicured lawn, which also would have required some upper crustness to even have access to such a thing and be able to maintain it in that kind of way. David Foster puts out this book that kind of collected a bunch of different sort of fun indoor kind of family games. And we found an image from the company, Cornelu, I think is what they're called. They are a legacy table tennis company with skin in the game, literally. And there's a lot of good historical info on their site. They had this vintage advert for Dee Foster's patented Parlor Table games. This book and a page showing two very hoity toity British noble types pinging and ponging a ball on this kind of what looks like just a dressed up dinner table. You see there's like wooden legs peering out from underneath. It seems to just be covered up.
- [08:58]
A
In a green cloth with batting on the sides.
- [09:01]
B
Batting on the side exactly around the edges to keep it, you know, sort of from popping off. Of course we know that modern table tennis doesn't have any such thing, but then it has a little net going across the side and some of the same lines of demarcation that separate the left and the right side of your part of the court. But they are just referring to it here as lawn tennis, which is a little confusing. So the earliest surviving action game of tennis on a table as ITTF refers to it as on their website. They are the official governing body, the International Table Tennis Federation. We love a federation. Is made by David Foster, patented in England in 1890. Number 11037 Parlor Table Games is this book I mention that includes table versions of lawn tennis. That's exactly what it is. They're doing spins on popular court type games like cricket and football. And they're making it, or he's making it, condensing it into a game you can play indoors with less space. So the lawn tennis game featured strung rackets, more like a badminton racket, a 30 millimeter cloth covered rubber ball, a wooden fence set up around the perimeter of the table and some side nets even. In addition to of course these, the nets down the middle.
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A
And you know what I just realized, Noel and everybody tuning in, I just realized why the name David Foster was sticking in my head. It's because I used to be a huge Squirrel Nut Zippers fan. You remember they have that song. Met the ghost of Stephen Foster at the Hotel Paradise. This is what I told him as I gazed into his eyes.
- [10:38]
B
Dude, I have been down a Squirrel Nut Zippers nostalgia rabbit hole recently. There's an account I follow on Instagram that just like posts old like 120 minute videos from the very important MTV show that showed lots of weird like indie videos of the moment and their song the Squirrel Nut Zippers who are from, I believe Asheville, North Carolina, not too, too far from us. Hell was a huge hit at the time. The one that's like in the afterlife you could be headed for the serious. Mm. Great band. Really fun. They were one of the more interesting and tolerable of that era of like Swing dance revival type bands.
- [11:13]
A
Not the cherry popping daddies or whatever.
- [11:16]
B
You got your zoot suit rioters. You got your big bad voodoo skull.
- [11:21]
A
I like them. Big bad Voodoo Daddy.
- [11:22]
B
No, no, I'm sorry, it's Big bad Voodoo Daddy. Then there were also the voodoo glow skulls. And then of course the Mighty, Mighty Boss tones. But they were more. They weren't really swing. We're talking about stray cats.
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A
The Seltzer Orchestra.
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B
Brian Setzer Orchestra.
- [11:36]
A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
It was a golden time for that kind of thing. So.
- [11:41]
A
We will figure out if it's.
- [11:44]
B
The same David Foster.
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A
Wouldn't that be amazing?
- [11:47]
B
Why does he appear? Why is the ghost of the guy that like made parlor table games haunting the singer of the Squirrel Nut Zippers, who obviously is playing a vintage character sort of in the style of the Decemberists.
- [11:59]
A
Oh, yeah, exactly. You have to. I hear that a good hang, but maybe. Well. Oh, you know what? Never mind. Cut everything. We'll keep this in, but cut everything we said, folks. It's the ghost of Stephen Foster.
- [12:14]
B
Stephen Foster being a musician, a composer, right?
- [12:18]
A
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [12:19]
B
Stephen Foster. And then of course, you've got. You've got David Foster Wallace.
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A
Yes.
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B
Who's like the most pretentious writer to ever walk the face of the earth, if I'm not mistaken.
- [12:28]
A
I love his work. I have to regretfully say I don't love his fans.
- [12:34]
B
But isn't he like. He's the guy with the. He did sadly pass away. But Infinite Jest is often lampooned as being. Holy cow. David Foster Wallace has a book about tennis called String Theory, which is a very clever name for a book about tennis.
- [12:50]
A
And tennis is a huge deal in Infinite Jest as well. It's.
- [12:56]
B
I think there's a connection. There can't. It can't be.
- [12:59]
A
I don't know. The world is so weird. But. So shout out to all the Fosters. We just mentioned. Noel, another thing you found here is that Foster didn't just say, here's the setup for tennis on a table. He said, here are the rules for the game as well. And one thing I liked is that the. The rules are pretty straightforward and they're not super duper complicated like some of those really difficult board games we've tried to play in the past.
- [13:31]
B
Yeah. There's a couple that I still haven't even summoned the will to try again. But I do love Munchkin Pandemic. And what is the one? I really like the one.
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A
Love Birds.
- [13:43]
B
Oh, wingspan. Wingspan. Thank you. Once you get the hang of it, those are a good hang and a joy to play. But you're right, Ben. The rules of table tennis, very similar to the rules of tennis. Tennis to 11 points, you have to win by two serves. Alternate every two points, except in the event of a tie, a 10 to 10 tie, because that would be match point, if I'm not mistaken. Then you alternate per point at that point. So a legal serve involves tossing the ball at least 6 inches straight up from an open palm and hitting it behind the table. So it bounces on your side once, then on the opponent's side. And players then have to return the ball after one bounce, can't touch the net or the table with their free hand. And volleying, hitting the ball before it bounces is strictly verboten.
- [14:30]
A
Yeah, and I, whenever I see rule lists like this, especially given the cultural period we're talking about, I keep imagining them figuring out the rules because of one bad actor who keeps cheating. Like there's one guy who keeps grabbing the net.
- [14:49]
B
Yeah, yeah. Or like doing the old spikearoonie. You can spike it, right?
- [14:55]
A
No, you can spike it. Well, it has to bounce once.
- [14:57]
B
It has to bounce once and then you can. Absolutely.
- [15:02]
A
I'm just picturing somebody at a gentleman's club going, saying something like, Nigel, you irascible cad, you'll touch the net again.
- [15:11]
B
Bartholomew keeps. Yeah, Exactly. So in 1897, you see the first national championships that are organized in Hungary, actually, following a trip to the US in 1901, we got a guy named James Gibbs who brings back with him the very first example of that celluloid ball that I mentioned earlier that you can picture as being the, you know, still to this day most popular type of table tennis ball. Very much lighter than the rubber balls that we talked about and less dangerous, therefore, uh huh, much more zippy, you know, and bouncy.
- [15:48]
A
Yeah, you could do more cool tricks. And then we know that this caught on. It's convenient, right? If you have the space and you have the means. It's easy to learn because a lot of people already know tennis. And it also, I'll say it, it doesn't demand as much physical fitness as some other forms of recreation.
- [16:10]
B
You know, it's funny, Ben, thinking about this parlor games book, I'd love to see what some other like miniaturized games look like. Cause I can't really think of any other examples of ones that really stuck around. Like foosball is not any, anything like actual soccer. It's its own thing. But can you think of another game that Would that would. What's the word? Translate in this same way? What would a mini version of cricket look like? I just don't think it works.
- [16:35]
A
I'm in love with the idea of tiny croquet just because it's inefficient.
- [16:41]
B
It's the same as regular croquet, just everything is miniature.
- [16:43]
A
Yeah.
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B
And you look ridiculous.
- [16:45]
A
You have to have your thumb and forefinger holding. Holding the club. Yeah.
- [16:51]
B
Adorable.
- [16:51]
A
That's a great question. We should get a hold of the parlor games book because it would be cool to see. I bet you like, 20 Ben Bucks there is there. We're going to see a lot of things that were not near as popular, and they were probably just super weird.
- [17:08]
B
But some things lost to history, like lawn darts lost to history for good reason. I believe they skewered a child or two in their day.
- [17:16]
A
Oh, yeah, man. Just like. And you and I and Max lived through the slip and slide era when people started breaking their backs on that thing.
- [17:26]
B
Yeah. Or like, slicing themselves open on, like, a particularly pointy rock that somebody missed. That was underneath the damn thing. We have talked. You know, it's funny, I think I maybe mentioned this in previous discussions we've had around these games. There was a class, like, it was like a PE substitute class I took in college called Backyard Games.
- [17:45]
A
What? That's cool.
- [17:46]
B
It's called Backyard Games. Yeah.
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A
What was your favorite part?
- [17:49]
B
It was largely badminton. I just remember playing a lot, and I enjoyed it. That was a fun game. But then there were some other real goofy ones that we had to do as well that I'm kind of spacing on what they were, but definitely didn't have any table tennis setups there. We start to see, you know, after this introduction of the celluloid ball by James Gibb, interest starting to kind of rise in the game. And just enough that we see an association being created in England called the Ping Pong Association. They're still using the colloquialism at the time, but not for. That was in 1901. 500 players and enthusiasts were registered to the organization. And just a year later, in 1902, you see a British fellow enthusiast, fan of the game, E.C. gould, introducing the first bats or paddles that were very similar to what we see today. Rubberized material, glued to wooden, circular little mini paddles with little. They're calling them pimples here on Cornelieu.com, which. Yeah, the little bolts me out. That's what it is. It's the grippy. It's that grippy material. And it makes sense that it would be, it would help with traction, you know, on the ball.
- [19:04]
A
Yeah. And good on you, EC for saying, okay, lads, the rubber balls didn't work out, but let's not get rid of rubber entirely because it's a great surface. Right. Because now you get a little more grip.
- [19:17]
B
Wonder material at the time too. It is still, we're probably loving any use of rubber and we're going to get into some issues that come as a result of this rubber and changing it out or having little hacks that could maybe make your paddle a little more bouncy than the other guys.
- [19:34]
A
Yeah. Because of course, even if it's a non professional sport, there are going to be people who try to sneak in.
- [19:41]
B
Some little edgy moves like Nigel and Bartholomew. Those are rasable rascals.
- [19:47]
A
Irascible rascals.
- [19:48]
B
I like that.
- [19:49]
A
There you go. Yeah. So. So, okay, we, we were going back to our question. Ping pong versus table tennis. What's in a name? We know as you found that the ping pong association eventually had its day in the sun and then kind of fell a little bit in popularity.
- [20:10]
B
Pretty brief. Yeah, Brief candle.
- [20:13]
A
Yeah. But then it became popular again in the 1920s and that's where they started adopting the name table tennis. So maybe in addition to wanting to be taken a bit more seriously, which I can see, maybe they were also, also going for a little bit of a rebrand, you know what I mean?
- [20:33]
B
I think that's right. They wanted it. I thought ping pong sounded a little too childish or something, or it sounded like a kid's game and they wanted it to be taken seriously. So the original association, the ping pong one, had broken up in 1905. The game did continue, but there just wasn't a governing body, so to speak, mainly outside of London. And then in the twenties you started to see it enter other countries, you know, outside of England. So you started to see public exhibition type tournaments. Some of the most popular ones took place at Queen's hall in London. And then in 1902, you started to see the formation of a world championship type event. We're gonna see that happen kind of again as a larger governing body sort of swoops in and becomes the sort of, you know, tastemaker, gatekeeper of the sport. But you are starting to see formations of smaller, more regional and country wide federations or governing organizations, one of which was the British Table Tennis Federation because of course, England and London and then in some of the suburbs and outside of England and then outside in other parts of Europe. It was definitely the hub of the sport originally. So in 1907 you start to see the first European Championships and then in the twenties is when things really get going. That's when you see the Table Tennis association, the ittf. That's who I mentioned early on in.
- [22:06]
A
The episode, the Table Tennis Association. Not to be confused with the International Table Tennis Federation, which comes about in 1926. And this leads us to of course, the World Championship picture Eurovision, but a century ago with table tennis instead of pop socks.
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B
These folks are coming. They love the Eurovision.
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A
Eurovision.
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B
I don't know much about it. I have some really dear friends in Berlin and they said it's basically like the way we watch like the super bowl over here. Massive to do.
- [22:42]
C
I watched it during COVID and yeah, I get it, it's awesome.
- [22:47]
B
They have parties over there and stuff.
- [22:48]
A
It's a spectacle. It's something we should do an episode on. So we've got Supreme Pizza as an episode and we've got Eurovision. Oh, gosh, man.
- [22:59]
B
We definitely have to do a Eurovision. That's a great idea, Ben. Good call.
- [23:02]
A
We've got to do it. So we know that these championships, the world championships were a big deal. And other countries started to. Despite the fact that there was already an international table tennis federation, other countries started their own similar nation specific organizations, like of course, the French. Kidding. French, we love you. But you started your own table tennis federation when there already was one international.
- [23:34]
B
Which makes sense, I guess, because it would be an organization that could maybe help organize regional competitions. Yeah. And helping, you know, just raise the profile within that particular country. Though I'm sure the ittf, especially nowadays kind of has a lot of that on lock. I'd be curious to see what some of the other more country specific federations are remaining to this day. The French get in on it eventually in a tournament that takes place in Budapest in 1929. And then you start to see rising stars like Marty supreme or like the dude that he's based on, a guy by the name of Richard Bergman, who is an Austro Briton and Franco Polish player. Alozoy, Alozy Ehrlich. And then we've got a Romanian fellow by the name of Anglica Roseno. And these were some of the rising stars of the sport at the time. And this is in the era that is depicted in the movie Marty supreme when we're starting to see this real table tennis fever kind of sweeping the nation.
- [24:38]
A
Nice. Yeah. We also know that there were technological advances and setbacks, so not everything was a perfect score for ping pong. As you pointed out earlier, Noel, in the beginning days when this was a very ad hoc kind of recreation activity for the upper crust, they were, you know, using found items for paddles like cigar boxes. And when they got ping pong actual facts. Paddles. Shout out to Lauren Vogelbaum. Those paddles. Yeah, those paddles didn't have the materials you're going to see today. No fancy sponges, no rubber. Instead they had had this grit kind of fine sandpaper. And it gave you a very small amount of friction with the ball. So you couldn't put any spin on it, you couldn't put the English on it. That meant that the ping pong players of the time weren't as reliant on speed and power. They were more strategic with their moves and the ball was moving slower and the games took longer, they took longer.
- [25:49]
B
It was not nearly as exciting to watch. You're not seeing as many of those aces and spikes as you might see in modern versions of the game. So a lot of technical innovations came along. Changes in regulations allowing some of these innovations that had a major impact on the speed and excitement of the sport. A lot of high profile tournaments had their outcomes affected by some of this new stuff. And it wasn't considered cheating or anything because it was allowed. In particular, you'd have specific changes to the rubber and the blade that were recognized formally by the governing body, the International Table tennis Federation in 1926, which is of course still the governing body to this day, model. Modern table tennis rackets have what's called, and this is coming from a really cool blog, TomViach.com, talking about the history of table tennis technology and different types of glue we're going to get to in just a second. So the blade is the wooden part. The rubber is the bouncy material that is attached to it. Vulcanized rubber bonded to an inner layer of expanded sponge or foam. And it has.
- [27:08]
A
Less dense.
- [27:10]
B
Exactly, less dense. And it has to be, of course, attached to the blade. And doing that required certain types of glue. And it was in the 1970s that some European table tennis players realized that they could kind of try different types of adhesives that would change the planes characteristics of the rubber layer. Unfortunately, the ones that were the most effective were real fumey.
- [27:44]
A
Oh, right, okay.
- [27:46]
B
This is like sniffing glue, you know, it's not good for you.
- [27:49]
A
This is where we're talking about stuff like trichloroethylene and 1,1 trichloroethane, right?
- [27:57]
B
I think that's right, Ben. Those are the ones in question. You were actually allowed to, you know, re. Adhere your rubber surface, though typically prior to this situation we're describing here, it would really only be done when the old surface had worn out. But there wasn't any rule against doing it more frequently. And at this point, the type of glues that people were using were the kind you might see to repair a bicycle tire or plug a leak in a, you know, automotive tire. They were one part. Vulcanizing fluids is what they're referred to as. And players were finding that what was then referred to as speed glue could produce shots with increased speed and spin. That English you were talking about, Ben, compared to just putting the rubber on with some of the traditional rubber cements that were used.
- [28:54]
A
Okay. Yeah. And this is interesting, and I like the reference to tires for cars because it reminds me of the way changing tires works in some professional racing, you know, like F1 or NASCAR. The. The idea is that you can pit crew. Yeah, you can pit crew stuff, essentially, and you can change out these tires that will affect your performance, just like changing out the glue can affect the performance of your paddle, but you're sacrificing longevity. So speed glue has a big disadvantage, which is this high performance gift or this edge that it gives you only lasts for a few hours instead of three to six months. And the rubber has a shorter plane lifetime. So you could do this. And as you said, Noel, it's perfectly legal to reglue the rubber onto your paddle between matches however many times you want.
- [29:56]
B
At this point. There are no rules against that.
- [29:59]
A
But you've got to have your kit with you. You've got to be able to MacGyver stuff.
- [30:03]
B
This is fun.
- [30:04]
A
Yeah. With your glue bottle, your brushes, your scissors, your rolling pins so you can flatten the rubber evenly and then hair dryers even.
- [30:13]
B
Right?
- [30:13]
A
Yeah. Later hair dryers, which is cool because I don't know about a lot of other sports that require you to bring hair dryers.
- [30:22]
B
Well, these are all very. It's interesting and it almost goes back to the DIY roots of the sport because a lot of this feels very do it yourself kind of craft project, you know. But as we mentioned, while this glue might yield some short term increases in speed and bounce, it also contains some pretty gnarly toxic fumes that if you surround yourself with it for too long, it can cause some real problems. There's evidence of a Japanese player, and this is all pretty recent, by the way, collapsing while gluing his palate During a tournament in 2007. And as of September 1st of 2008, the ITTF has banned glues containing quote unquote volatile compounds and now allows only water based glues. And there's like glue sniffing contraptions that test for the wrong kind of illegal glues before matches. Almost the way that athletes in the Olympics and other high profile competitions are tested for things like blood doping and use of steroids. However, I believe that this was so controversial and there was concern that it would slow down the speed of play, that the ITTF kind of held back on this decision for a little while and I think now it is in place. But there was a while where it was an outcry and I think they sort of held back on implementing this. But now I think this is back in 2008. I do believe that it is now illegal to use these speed glue.
- [31:48]
A
Yeah. And at that point it's a health concern. You know what I mean? However, this is a great time to mention our earlier idea that we pitched to Dan Harmon and anything goes Olympics. We don't know how the paperwork would pan out. But you know, didn't we.
- [32:08]
B
There was a thing, remember there was a story about some Olympic guy or something. Yeah, that was it. It was about like steroids allowed all kinds of. But we had the idea human growth hormone, blood doping.
- [32:22]
A
We definitely did, but that's where this would go. And everybody can agree that the health of the athletes, the health of the support staff is crucial. So play the game to the best of your ability. But part of that is also playing the game with your health in mind for sure.
- [32:41]
B
And just to double back again, none of this was corking your bat in baseball, which is illegal, you know, that is like considered cheating. Or Deflategate. Remember Deflategate in American football? It was this idea using slightly deflated footballs. This was all above board and it wasn't like anybody was doing it in secret or in the dark of night. Everyone knew that this was being done and it was allowed until it wasn't. Another reason that I think it wasn't allowed. Despite the toxic fumes thing, the ITTF seemed very concerned about making the game easier to find follow for spectators. And apparently those balls were pinging and ponging so fast with that speed glue that it was hard for the eyeball to follow. That tiny little thing. Right?
- [33:26]
A
Yeah. We're talking.
- [33:27]
B
It's almost like what are they doing? Some guys whiffing and waffing their arms around. I can't even see the ball.
- [33:32]
A
Yeah, this is crazy. Okay, so a world class ping pong player, as you mentioned in Tom Vietsch's website, a world class ping pong player can make shots with speeds of up to 100 miles per hour with the ball spinning 9,000 RPM. So, like Noel was saying, folks, you can easily imagine how it's tough to keep track of everything because these are pretty small balls.
- [34:05]
B
And one concern of a body like the ITTF is making the game as accessible and as popular as possible. So they are thinking about the big picture of what makes this the most engaging to viewers.
- [34:18]
A
And it turns out that they were onto something, because as we see. I think we'll mention Forrest Gump a little bit later too. As we see in the 1950s, table tennis really takes off in the Asiatic sphere. Just like Hungary in days of yore, Japanese team were a huge deal at the World championships between what, 1954 to 1959 for sure.
- [34:54]
B
And then you start to see the Chinese teams, or it's not really a team sport, is it? It's an individual sport. The Chinese entries into the chat starting to really dominate. That is around 1961. And then in 1963 and 1965, we see triple world champion titles won by Xuan Zhedong. And then during this period, you start to see ping pong almost as a method of soft diplomacy, which I know is your wheelhouse, Ben.
- [35:26]
A
Oh, yeah, man. We're excited about this because it'll play into the idea of soft diplomacy. Plays into another episode we're gonna have coming up about Thailand. But you nailed it. That's exactly what I was thinking about. That sequence is in the film Forrest Gump where Forrest gets really into ping pong and then ends up playing the Chinese delegation. This is fascinating because we also see an evolution of strategy. It's 1977 and the world Championships are in Birmingham. And this is where we see the first official use of something called the Chinese service, which is a particular type of serve.
- [36:14]
B
Yep. And Asia then of course, really becomes cemented rubber cemented or speed glued into the annals of ping pong table tennis history. And I think even to this day, they are quite good.
- [36:29]
A
Oh, yeah, Yeah. I have not played ping pong over in an Asian country, but I know it's still a huge. And the people who are good at it are very, very good at it. I don't know. How are you at table tennis?
- [36:46]
B
I haven't played it in a very long time. Dear pal and friend of the show, Frank just got one, a table tennis setup, and he's invited me over to play and I'm sure we'd love to have you as well, Ben. So maybe we should do a little ping pong adventure sometime.
- [37:00]
A
Dude, that would be so much fun. I always mess up in the first few minutes because I keep forgetting you have to have a light touch.
- [37:11]
B
I know our buddy Chandler Maze, who we work with on podcasts and have known for many, many years. I've seen on his Instagram stories lately that he's been pinging a lot of pongs.
- [37:20]
C
Also, do not try to play putt putt against Chandler. That guy is insane. He is so good at putt putt.
- [37:26]
B
He's great at. I know he plays regular tennis.
- [37:28]
C
Golfer.
- [37:29]
B
Yeah, he's a serious, serious. He's a serious athlete.
- [37:31]
C
We had a company outing where we played putt putt not that long ago, and man, he smoked everybody. Like, I was playing with a guy who was really good and then I looked at his score and it was nothing compared to Chandler's.
- [37:40]
A
Well, the thing is. And Chad, I. I love you, man. I say this with great affection. You are always going to be also way more competitive than I am.
- [37:50]
B
Just.
- [37:52]
A
Just personality wise.
- [37:54]
B
You've got fire in the blood.
- [37:55]
A
Yeah, that's for sure. That's why I love playing games with Chandler, because we're so different in that regard. And he's usually gonna be better at the game that I'm endlessly congratulating him because I think it's cool.
- [38:09]
B
Absolutely. It's good to be good at stuff. No question about it. Speaking of being good at stuff, we've already really seen the transition of table tennis from like a, you know, a quaint little parlor game to a serious competitive sport. This is no question about this, but we have not yet entered the world of the Olympics. That doesn't happen until almost the 90s.
- [38:32]
A
Isn't that crazy? It's late 1980s. So this has. Ping pong has become such a global phenomenon that it's actually a form of diplomacy.
- [38:44]
B
Right.
- [38:44]
A
For decades at this point. And in 1988, like with player exchanges and various things.
- [38:50]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [38:51]
A
And normalizing relations between hostile countries.
- [38:53]
B
So thank you, Ben.
- [38:55]
A
It's weird, right? So South Korea, Seoul, they have the Olympics, 1988, and table tennis officially becomes an Olympic sport. And you know, no surprise to a lot of the people following ping pong, the winners are both from Asia. The female Chinese player, Chen Jing takes the gold medal in her category. And the male Korean national, Yoo Nam Kyu takes gold medal in his category.
- [39:31]
B
And it's interesting that we don't really even see, like, pro tours. We've got the sport in the Olympics, but there's nothing resembling like the PGA that we have surrounding golf, of course, but we have that happening in 1996, so. Well, almost a decade after that first Olympic inclusion. And yeah, to what we were saying earlier, it has largely remained dominated by Asian players since the beginning of the professional world of ping pong. And that includes triple world champion and world number one player for many years, Wang Liquin. Oh, and to answer my own question that I posed earlier, I believe, Ben, you could probably confirm this. Tennis. Table tennis is the most practiced sport in all of Asia.
- [40:19]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's still a huge, huge deal. You know, I put it up there with football or, excuse me, soccer in Latin America. You know, people love it. And we know that now. The International Table Tennis Federation includes more than 200 nations. It's the size of a nation itself in terms of membership and population. 33 million people are part of the ITTF.
- [40:51]
B
Remember the earliest ones we mentioned, I think it was something like 50 or 500, sorry, players that were involved. And even then at the time, that seemed like a lot because it was much more niche. But it's huge. Bigger than rock and roll? Maybe not. It'll give rock and roll a run for its money. But. Ben, you teased Forrest Gump. I think a lot of our first views into ping pong as a serious sport and as a method of soft diplomacy was from the 1994 film Forrest Gump, where the title character played by Tom Hanks after being discharged from the military. Cause I. I believe. What is it? A bullet flew up and bit him in the butt.
- [41:28]
A
Yeah. He got a million dollar wound. A ticket home.
- [41:31]
B
That's right.
- [41:32]
A
So a bullet that takes him out of service and puts him in the hospital for a little bit, but doesn't ruin his life.
- [41:41]
B
No, I think it's in the hospital that he just gradually starts enjoying playing table tennis because that's, you know, again, while it is a serious sport at this time, or it's beginning to be, it's also still a fun part. And he, of course, is also an elite American football player, a shrimp boat captain and a professional table tennis player. And one thing I'll always remember about that scene where they're recreating footage of him playing table tennis is that the balls were moving so fast they were animated in. And that was like, at the time, a really big deal in, you know, special effects. Right? Yeah.
- [42:20]
A
Especially because it was so Subtle. It looked believable. It was quite impressive. And we also see a wonderful Easter egg that I wasn't aware of. I actually had to go back and watch this sequence after you pointed this out in your research. The director, Robert Zemeckis, does something really clever, and it's a special gift for actual ping pong fans. Hands. It's all about the grip. Remember we mentioned the Chinese service when Forrest is picking up the ping pong paddle, originally, he uses the traditional grip, what we call the shakehand grip. Kind of like how you would hold a hand mirror. Right.
- [43:05]
B
Can I just say, why do they call it the shake hand grip and not the handshake grip? That just make. That boils my blood.
- [43:10]
A
Yeah.
- [43:11]
B
That whiffs you off. It really does, man. Nah, it's cool. Yeah, it is the grip that would be typically used by players. He continues to use this grip until he travels to China, where he sees players using a grip that was much more popular over there called the penhold grip, which is an alternate style of holding the paddle that had been popularized over there and was favored by Chinese players, especially in the height of its rise there in the mid 20th century. He uses this grip, like later in the film.
- [43:48]
A
Yeah, yeah. And this. He's using this script specifically toward the end of the film when he plays the game with spoiler, his son, Forrest.
- [43:59]
B
Jr. Who sees dead people.
- [44:01]
C
Right?
- [44:02]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the spoiler for Sixth Sense the whole time. That's Bruce Willis. He's just playing a different character.
- [44:09]
B
It's true. No, we're talking about little baby Haley Joel Osment. Big, big winner. Cleaned up at the Oscars. Best Picture. Best Zemeckis. Best Adaptive Screenplay. Best Editing. Best Visual Effects. There are a couple other really good, low key, brilliant effects where it's like showing Gump imposed into historical events really, really thoughtfully and creatively. Convincingly, rather.
- [44:38]
A
Yeah. And with some alarming historical accuracy because Lyndon Johnson was known to be fascinated by scars. That's why when he's talking to Forrest Gump in that scene.
- [44:51]
B
I'd like to see that sometime.
- [44:53]
A
Yeah. And he moons him immediately. We also would be remiss if we didn't mention that there was. Forrest Gump is based on a novel and there was supposed to be a sequel because of the massive success of the film adaptation.
- [45:06]
B
There was a sequel to the novel, but they didn't make it into a.
- [45:09]
A
Movie because the guy who actually wrote the story, unfortunately, he got Hollywooded out of his share of the profits. So he didn't really make a dime out of it. That's why there's not a Forrest Gump sequel. It's a tangent, but it's important for us to mention it.
- [45:24]
B
I did also read something interesting too about how they ran out of money on production of Forrest Gump and there were some sequences that they weren't gonna be able to shoot. But Tom Hanks, I think he exchanged a big part of his salary for points on the back end which obviously ended up working out in his favor. But he donated his salary to help pay for. For some of these sequences that they like, didn't have the money to do.
- [45:47]
A
Tom Hanks seems like a stand up guy, man.
- [45:50]
B
And True Story is canceled. I just don't know.
- [45:52]
A
I don't know what to do.
- [45:54]
B
It's not going to happen.
- [45:55]
A
We'll have to. We'll have to pause the show for like a week to mourn. But what one cool Tom Hanks. Fact is he is. We mentioned this on another show somewhere, but he is super duper into old school typewriters. So much so that word on the street is, is if you write him a letter on your typewriter, he will take out one of his typewriters and type a letter back to you.
- [46:20]
B
So try this came up on another one of our discussions recently. It must have been on stuff they don't want you to know. Check us out on Netflix by the way.
- [46:27]
A
Oh, nice segue. Yeah, we are as of this week live and direct with two new episodes per week on Netflix. So if you're thinking, ah, I'd love to give the guys a rating or review or oh I'd love to hear more, more strange things from these jabronis. Then hi V to Netflix and click the remind me button and then click the little thumbs up button. That'll be a massive help to us. And we couldn't thank you more folks. And Noel, I can't thank you more for this awesome research. It really makes you want to play ping pong. Not up to Chandler's level, but just.
- [47:11]
B
I'm sure that guy's brutal at a restaurant somewhere. We're gonna wrap it up too just to dovetail back to how we started the episodes talking about Marty supreme, which I'm very much excited to see. It's still in cinemas. Do check it out if you want to get out to the movies. I am going to try to catch it before it leaves, but I also think it'd probably be cool to watch at home. There is a dude that the Marty supreme character portrayed by Timmy Chalamet is based on a guy named Marty Ressman who is an award winning table tennis player. Born in a New York City in the Lower east side to Russian Jewish immigrant parents in 1930, he got really into table tennis as a kid and in an interview with Forbes magazine in 2005 said that he learned how to play at a local community center after having some significant nervous issues. Let's just say, I mean the term nervous breakdown I find to be a little bit hyperbolic. But it does seem that as a, a young man, or young, like a nine year old, he was dealing with some anxiety and some difficulties there and this helped him kind of focus a bit. Yeah, and he used it initially as.
- [48:19]
A
An escape, like forest in recovery after his wound.
- [48:23]
B
Yeah, just so. And then used it as a means to a career and became real competitive at 13.
- [48:30]
A
And he was known for an aggressive, flashy playing style. He had his own signature super move, the atomic blast which was a.
- [48:41]
B
That's going to be a massive spike. Right, right.
- [48:43]
A
115 miles per hour, this guy. And he was also similar to Michael Jordan. He was no stranger to the world of gambling and the whims of fate. He would place bets on himself, hey.
- [49:01]
B
You know what, say bet on yourself, you know?
- [49:03]
A
Right, right. And we know that when he was 15 years old, still a very, very young person, a child, his reputation for hustling people as a ping pong shark came back to haunt him. He bet 500 bucks on himself at a national tournament in Detroit. But he accidentally handed the money not to a bookie, but to the head of the United States Table Tennis Association.
- [49:33]
B
And I say we leave it there as not to spoil any events of the movie Marty Supreme. But yeah, do check it out. It sounds like a romp that's gonna involve table tennis. Tyler, the creator's in it. Oh man. I just, I'm very excited to see it. But this has been a super fun episode. A lot more involved than I would have expected. Almost two parter material, but not quite. Wouldn't have been a good place to break it. So we give you, we gift you with this beefy episode of Ridiculous History.
- [50:01]
A
And thanks as always to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Thanks to AJ Bahamas Jacobs. And you know what, I'm going to say it, I don't always do it, but an actual thank you to Jonathan Strickland AKA the Qur, who wrote us.
- [50:17]
B
A human ping pong ball.
- [50:18]
A
Human ping pong ball, who wrote us a very nice message about getting on Netflix. So thank you. I love the guy he's all right. Three out of five.
- [50:28]
B
He's a good dude. Yeah. And thanks to you, Ben. This is a lot of fun. Thanks, super producer Max, of course, Alex Williams, who composed this theme. Christopher Odis and Eve's Jeff Coats here in spirit.
- [50:38]
A
Thanks for the awesome research here, Noel. And thanks to the rude dudes of ridiculous crime. If you dig us, you'll love them.
- [50:45]
B
We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
- [50:59]
A
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.