The Spiritualism Movement Was Utterly Ridiculous, Part One: A Prank Goes Viral

Summary

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Ridiculous History – "The Spiritualism Movement Was Utterly Ridiculous, Part One: A Prank Goes Viral"

Podcast: Ridiculous History (iHeartPodcasts)
Hosts: Ben Bowlin, Noel Brown
Guest: Jonathan Strickland (aka The Quizzter)
Release Date: March 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively and irreverent episode, Ben, Noel, and returning guest Jonathan Strickland take listeners on a winding journey through the origins of the 19th-century Spiritualism movement. They uncover how a viral prank by two young sisters sparked a global craze, examine the interplay between science, religion, and belief, and introduce the influential (and sometimes ridiculous) early figures whose ideas fueled the rise of mediums, séances, and the search for answers from beyond the grave.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Universal Fascination With the Afterlife

• Humans have always been obsessed with what happens after death, giving rise to spiritual beliefs and heated debates on consciousness and the soul ([00:52]–[01:35]).
• Ben: "Pretty much from the moment humans started humaning, everybody has been...concerned about what happens after they die." ([00:52])
• Noel: "It's the foundation of so many belief systems and debates...it gets people pretty heated." ([01:16])

2. Spiritualism Defined: Communicating With the Dead

• Spiritualism is described as a 19th-century movement centered on belief in communication with the dead, often via mediums and séances ([08:28]).
• Some spiritualists were true believers; others were hucksters chasing fame or fortune.
• Noel: "These, you know, kind of self proclaimed spiritualists, for better or worse...sought to make contact with the dead, usually through a form of seance." ([08:28])

3. The “Science” of Belief: Swedenborg and Mesmer

Emanuel Swedenborg ("Manny Swedes") [13:32–22:24, 26:15–28:12]

• Swedish polymath whose visions and writings inspired ideas about structured heavens, hells, and the spirit world.
• Claimed to receive divine instructions, detailing a cosmology with three heavens and three hells.
• Ben: "He writes prolifically...and a lot of his proposed discoveries...are way different from earlier accepted Christian thought." ([20:14])
• The hosts riff on his "Swissness," make cheese/knife jokes, and debate the seriousness of his claims.
  • “His name...literally translates to something like Sweden Castle." ([14:23])
• Notable exchange on whether Swedenborg was inspired, mentally unwell, or opportunistic ([18:18]–[18:49]).

Franz Mesmer [28:12–32:09]

• Austrian healer; originator of Mesmerism (hypnosis, 'animal magnetism').
• Believed invisible magnetic fluids could be manipulated to cure illness or induce trances where spirits visited.
• Jonathan quotes the Smithsonian:
  • "Mesmer proposed that everything in the universe...was governed by a magnetic fluid that could become imbalanced, causing illness. By waving his hands...he induced a mesmeric hypnotic state..." ([29:46])
• Discussion of how developing scientific understanding of invisible forces (like magnetism and gravity) made spiritualist ideas plausible in the popular imagination.

4. Andrew Jackson Davis: Spiritualism’s Mainstreaming “Seer” [32:09–34:35]

• Davis blended Swedenborg and Mesmer’s ideas, claimed trances in which he received messages from the spirit world.
• Authored 'The Principles of Her Divine Revelations and a Voice to Mankind', making the field both mystical and accessible.
• Comparison to Joseph Smith and Mormonism's founding revelations.

5. The Fox Sisters & The Prank That Went Viral [36:35–43:44]

• The movement's explosion begins with a childhood prank:
  • Maggie (14) and Kate Fox (11) in Hydesville, NY, claim to hear “spirit rapping” (knocks) in their home ([37:41]).
• The girls convince both their mother and the community they are in touch with the dead – even providing detailed answers to questions via knocks.
• Jonathan: "If you've ever told a little lie...and your life becomes...entangled...I feel a lot of empathy toward the Fox sisters because...they could not extricate themselves because there was just way too much pressure to keep the story going." ([38:21]–[39:04])

6. Rochester: A Perfect Storm for Movements [41:39–43:44]

• The girls are sent to live in Rochester, NY—a hotbed for new religions and social movements, including Mormonism and Seventh-day Adventism.
• The city’s openness to spiritual experimentation primes it for the wildfire growth of spiritualism.

7. Exploiting Grief: The Power of Hope [47:49–51:46]

• The upper class, grieving Post family invites the Fox sisters for séance demonstrations.
• Their apparent success at channeling the dead spreads rapidly; soon, the sisters are performing in front of hundreds.
• Ben: "This would prove to be the engine of spiritualism’s success...targeting the vulnerable." ([48:49])
• Noel: "Hope is a hell of a drug, right?" ([49:24])
• The hosts discuss cold reading, mentalist tricks, and how belief (and sometimes mere entertainment) can overrule skepticism.

8. Spiritualism Becomes Show Business [52:56–59:01]

• The Fox sisters go on tour, giving séances in elite hotels and societies, with up to three “shows” a day.
• They attract notable intellectuals, social reformers, and celebrities—many convinced of their powers.
• Ben: "The show...became the thing to see, like going to see Hamilton..." ([57:38])
• Some skeptics debunk them (noting their talent for cracking toe joints!) but most audiences want to believe.

9. The Role of Technology & Confirmation Bias [59:01–61:43]

• The belief in and popularity of spiritualist phenomena grows alongside emerging tech (photography, telegraph).
• The hosts compare spiritual photography and death masks to so-called “magical” innovations.
• Jonathan: "There is an association between the supernatural and technology because...photography seemed akin to magic." ([60:13])

10. Looking Ahead: The Rise & Fall of Spiritualism

• The episode ends with the Fox sisters at the height of their fame.
• Tease for Part Two: Why did spiritualism eventually fall from grace? ([61:43])
• Jonathan: "I was so excited to be on here. I hope I did not interject too much." ([61:57])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Spiritualism’s Appeal:
  "Forget those crotchety, creepy priests. I'm going to roll up my sleeves. I'm going to hold a seance. I will be the person who saves my soul."
  — Ben Bowlin ([55:12])

• On Grief and Hope:
  "Hope is a hell of a drug, right?"
  — Noel Brown ([49:24])

• On the Original “Viral Lie”:
  “I feel a lot of empathy toward the Fox sisters because...at a certain point, they could not extricate themselves because there was just way too much pressure to keep the story going.”
  — Jonathan Strickland ([38:48])

• On Science Making the Supernatural Plausible:
  "If you can have an invisible force in front of you...then why not a spiritual force as well?"
  — Jonathan Strickland ([31:20])

• On the Rise of the Medium as Celebrity:
  "They did three shows a day around this giant table...the show became the thing to see."
  — Noel Brown & Ben Bowlin ([57:26]–[57:38])

• On Skepticism and Belief:
  "The power of belief was so strong that many learned individuals were taken in...including Sir Arthur Conan Doyle."
  — Noel Brown ([59:01])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:52]–[01:35] — Why people are obsessed with the afterlife
• [08:28] — Defining Spiritualism
• [13:32]–[22:24] — Deep dive into Emanuel Swedenborg’s influences & wild beliefs
• [28:12]–[32:09] — Franz Mesmer and the appeal of “invisible forces”
• [32:09]–[34:35] — Andrew Jackson Davis: “Seer” and popularizer
• [36:35]–[43:44] — The Fox Sisters’ prank sparks a movement
• [41:39]–[43:44] — Rochester as fertile ground for new religious ideas
• [47:49]–[51:46] — Grief, cold reading, and the rise of spiritual séances
• [52:56]–[59:01] — Spiritualism becomes entertainment and big business
• [59:01]–[61:43] — Tech, confirmation bias, and spiritualism’s mainstream moment
• [61:43]–[63:55] — Wrap-up; tease for Part Two

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Tone & Style

• The hosts blend humor, skepticism, and genuine curiosity—never shying from poking fun at both dupes and hucksters but always expressing empathy for the grieving and those desperate for answers.
• Running gags involve puns, personal anecdotes, and tongue-in-cheek references to pop culture (e.g., “Loopers”, “Swissness”, “Greatest Showman”).
• Clear focus on the intersection of human psychology, belief, and the sometimes ridiculous ways we seek meaning.

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Summary

This episode kicks off a two-part deep dive into Spiritualism, tracing its bizarre, prankish roots through the legendary (and sometimes laughably fraudulent) figures who propelled it. Rich with historical context, contemporary parallels, and pointed wit, it’s both an accessible primer for the uninitiated and a treasure trove of oddities for fans of the weird and wonderful in history.

Look out for Part Two: How Spiritualism Fell from Grace!

Transcript

[Ben Bollen]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartradio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning in. Wait, I hear an otherworldly knock on the door. Who is that? It's our guest super producer Dylan. The Tennessee pal Fagan.

[Noel Brown]

The ghostly apparition of Dylan. Rap a tap tapping.

[Ben Bollen]

The very same.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Very same.

[Ben Bollen]

And that is a quote. You are Noel Brown. I am Ben Bollen. We have been, we've been fascinated for a long time about the idea of Ouija boards and mediums and psychics and the fact that pretty much from the moment humans started humaning, everybody has been understandably concerned about what happens after they die.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, a million percent. I mean, it's the foundation of so many belief systems and debates and as to where you go and how you get there and who's right and who's wrong. I mean, Ben, it's. It often it gets people pretty heated.

[Ben Bollen]

It does. People are at the risk of this being a hot take. People are a little bit sensitive about whether or not an echo of you persists. When your body fails, does your consciousness go somewhere? Does it simply disappear? And like you said, though, there are tons of religions and belief systems that claim to have the answer. But humanity is yet to land on a. A shared universal explanation that everybody and their mob takes as fact. It's not to say people haven't tried, but in the spirit of this for our series this week, this will be a two parter. We decided to call up our own ghost from years Gone. The rumors are true. After we shout this guy out in the credits all the time, we're welcoming back Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quizzter. But you're reformed now, right?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated. I'm merely an elder statesman in podcasting.

[Noel Brown]

Exaggerated by me. I'm always throwing around rumors of your death.

[Ben Bollen]

I mean we do it all the time.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, it's wishful thinking in the case of Noel, but you know, we love each other. Obviously it's true. Obviously. So I'm very flattered to have been asked back, especially on this topic. Quick personal story. When I was a student in elementary school, way back when, we'll probably cover some of the time period when we get there because that's how old I am. But when I was a student in elementary school, I, to the surprise of no one here would frequent the school library and the section I consistently went to was the non fiction books about the paranormal and the supernatural. So I would check out the same books over and Over. Even, like, just rereading ones I had read all the way through.

[Noel Brown]

What are we talking here, Jonathan? Are we talking, like, manuals on how to summon a specter?

[Jonathan Strickland]

There were no Tobin Spirit Guides in our elementary school library. No, I'm thinking about things like Deep Fried Rat, I think, was one of the names of one. It was all about urban legends and things of that nature.

[Noel Brown]

Those were popular, like, at the Scholastic Book Fairs, right?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Remember those?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, Like, Yeah, all kinds of urban legend books and conspiracy type books, not to mention those kind of horror books for kids that, when you look back on them, were pretty grisly, scary stories

[Ben Bollen]

to tell in the dark. It's a banger. It's some of the best folklore out there.

[Jonathan Strickland]

My dad wrote some of those, so. But this was when I was a kid. It was before that kind of trend had started taking off. But I would read all the books on things like Loch Ness monster or ghost stories or things about spiritualism and mediums and such, and one of my favorite stories I wanted to relate to you before we really jump into it, have you guys heard of a fellow named James Tidwell?

[Noel Brown]

No, I don't think I. Spiritualism.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Okay. So mid 19th century, this guy, he was like. He had the deck stacked against him. He was really short, like, somewhere around 4 foot 2. But he became a prominent spiritualist in Maryland, and the Baltimore sun even had this great story that I'll talk about in a second. But anyway, he. He became known as this incredibly charismatic person who, despite his stature, was able to get an enormous following. But he also became known for bilking people out of huge amounts of money in an effort to try and get them connected to their deceased loved ones.

[Noel Brown]

Now, that doesn't sound like something one of these folks would do.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I know, right? So law enforcement became very interested in him and. And at that point, he made tracks, which prompted the Baltimore sun to run the wonderful headline, Small Medium at Large.

[Noel Brown]

You made this whole story up, you bastard.

[Ben Bollen]

We stand a short king. This is the ridiculous history of the spiritualist movement.

[Noel Brown]

I was on board with this whole tale.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Thanks for having me back, guys.

[Ben Bollen]

This is the ridiculous history of the spiritualist movement.

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[Ben Bollen]

We have returned. No one really can prove what happens after you die to everybody else's satisfaction. Hence we have things like spiritualism. How would we describe that, Noel?

[Noel Brown]

Well, spiritualism is a movement that started in the 19th century in America and Europe based on the notion that one could communicate with the dearly departed and that they in some shape or form had the ability to interact with the living. And these, you know, kind of self proclaimed spiritualists, for better or worse, whether they actually believed in these abilities or whether they were just outright, you know, hucksters, sought to make contact with the dead, usually through a form of seance. The term medium is often thrown around, as in being sort of like a go between, you know, to sort of channel the dead, you know, and to cross over from this mortal coil into, you know, the world beyond. And, you know, these spiritualists, some of them, I think, actually genuinely did believe that they were able to contact spirits.

[Ben Bollen]

We could even call them some of the original rappers because they were rapping or knocking in terms of their communication Kind of like Clever Hans, the Master Hans.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, but that was. But, but that was a scam. So, you know.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, I'm planting a seed with that one.

[Noel Brown]

Right.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Good to have some. Good to have some horse sense before

[Noel Brown]

you dive into a little horse play over here. Horsing around. Guys, my. I think I've maybe mentioned on the show before my mother was an opera singer and an opera that she often did that I remember very fondly. It's got pieces and it's more of like a operetta, I guess, but it's. I don't know, it doesn't feel like a traditional opera. It's called the Medium by Giancarlo Manotti. Folks may know this composer from a very popular piece he did called Amal and the Night Visitors, which is a tale of the, you know, the wise men and all of this stuff. It's often, you know, performed at churches. But the Medium is about this woman who is a medium, who has a mute assistant named Toby who kind of does all of the, like, behind the scenes, rap a tap tapping and stuff. And it doesn't get a lot of love. And I really think some of the music in is utterly gorgeous. So do check out the Medium if anyone's interested in, you know, seeing a musical rendition of the kind of stuff we're talking about today.

[Ben Bollen]

Mm, yeah. You'll see it in a lot of film and fiction. This trope is a hard baked, deeply ingrained phenomena in horror and fantasy and entertainment. Because from the 19th to the 20th century, this was a genuine craze. This was all over the zeitgeist. People from all imaginable demographics and walks of life genuinely seemed to believe that a combination of science and religion could create a new understanding of what happens after you die, could prove an afterlife existed, and that further, certain very special people were able to bridge the gap between the living and the dead.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, you might actually wonder why this even happened. Like, why did this trend.

[Ben Bollen]

So as long as you could pay them, by the way.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yes, yes, that's the very important part, is the payment part, which stretches into today. But yeah, we'll talk later about some of the elements. But I think it was a convergence of facts that came together that kind of sowed the seeds that would grow into spiritualism. Because it's one thing to say this was a craze, but it's another thing to say, but why that craze at that time? And I don't think there's a single answer for that, but I do think there's a lot of really interesting different answers that all contribute to it.

[Noel Brown]

Well, it's always made me wonder, too. I mean, being that the United States was still quite a religious place, you know, with so many of these religious leaders, how this stuff wasn't looked upon as heresy or in some way offensive to God. Because, I mean, this idea of that ghosts exist kind of implies that, I mean, they didn't go to heaven.

[Ben Bollen]

Well, there were also. This is interesting because here we get into something that would be called heresy in the past. And as we'll see, not all of the skeptics were necessarily atheist. A lot of the most famous ones were, but there were some people who were skeptics because this stuff in the spiritualist movement did not jibe with their existing understanding of religion. So, like, okay, you're always going to hear it this way, folks. Our story begins in upstate New York in the 1840s.

[Noel Brown]

So many things do, but we'll get to that.

[Ben Bollen]

But I think we can argue, fellow ridiculous historians, that the story actually begins way, way earlier, when an absolute legend named Emanuel Swedenborg, or Swedenborg starts doing some really weird stuff. Oh, my God, he's such a weird dude. He's an episode. We should do an episode on this show.

[Noel Brown]

Jonathan, can you make with the Star

[Jonathan Strickland]

Trek puns for Swedenborg? I could, but I was immediately thinking of Gutenberg. Also true, because Gutenberg the musical, the villain, consistently mispronounces Gutenberg's name as Gutenborg.

[Ben Bollen]

Aha.

[Noel Brown]

Let's not forget about Steve Gutenborg.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, one of those from the Police

[Noel Brown]

Academy movies that Ben loves so dearly.

[Ben Bollen]

And also mispronouncing someone's name. It's one of those tiny negs, right? With his little moves.

[Noel Brown]

Trump likes doing that.

[Ben Bollen]

Sure does. And we also have to know for the record, our buddy Manny. I'll call him Manny. He is cartoonishly Swiss. His name for all of us etymology nerds, his name literally translates to something like Sweden Castle.

[Noel Brown]

Can we call him Manny Swedes?

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, of course.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah. He was. He was so Swiss Swiss that he always had a knife, a toothpick, a saw, tweezers, song in his heart.

[Ben Bollen]

It was like he would. He would return cheese if it didn't have holes in it. That's how Swiss this guy is.

[Noel Brown]

And if he got a piece of cheese with no holes in it, he damn well use that Swiss army knife to make some.

[Ben Bollen]

He sure did. And who knows, back then, maybe they just called it the army knife.

[Noel Brown]

That's true. Sort of like the Irish Car Bomb. No, nobody in Ireland wants to hear about that as a beverage.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Come on.

[Noel Brown]

As a, as a novelty cocktail.

[Ben Bollen]

Come on.

[Noel Brown]

That's like having. It's like over here having a cocktail called the 9 11.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Let's, let's, let's leave the trouble. Let's leave the troubles behind us. Talk about, and talk about this guy. Because. So we're talking about someone who is formative in the foundation of spiritualism, but this is also someone who was a legit smarty pants type of person. Right? We're not talking. Yeah, we're not talking about someone who just spontaneously gets this hare, this wild hare about convening with the dead. This is someone who was a learned man.

[Ben Bollen]

Sure.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yes.

[Noel Brown]

Gives it some sand, you know, I mean, I think we're all, especially on stuff they don't want you to know. Often fascinated between the crossover between science and the paranormal, we have an interview with an incredible physicist named Russell Targ, who was responsible for training CIA agents how to become psychic. The man is incredibly learned, has a background in all of the foundations of science, and yet truly does believe that these things are possible. Which really makes you think twice about calling someone like that a fraud.

[Ben Bollen]

Right? Yeah. And our buddy Manny at this time, to that beautiful point about science and spirituality converging again. He's born in 1688. He lives until about 1772, to your point, Jonathan. He's a scientist, he's an engineer. But wait, there's more, as Billy Mays was wont to say. He's an astronomer, a philosopher, an inventor, a Christian theologian. And then in 1741, he is 53 years old and he starts to have things that rock his lived experience. He has very vivid dreams and he has waking visions. And these are not one offs. They accumulate and escalate over time, all leading to easter weekend. It's April 6, 1744. And Jesus Christ from earlier reaches out to Manny directly from earlier is the

[Noel Brown]

best JC himself from before.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I mean, he had a lot of stuff to do that weekend.

[Noel Brown]

He's a busy guy. What would he do? Is the question that you often see on people's little wristbands.

[Ben Bollen]

That's right.

[Noel Brown]

I'll tell you what he would do. He would reach out to Swedenborg and

[Ben Bollen]

say, hey, you guys humans, great hustle on the whole Christianity thing. Humbly named. I need you to write the truth about the world and life and death and heaven and hell. I need you to write something called the Heavenly Doctrine. You're the only guy who can do this. Thanks. Great call.

[Noel Brown]

This is Some gold tablets, Joseph Smith type origin story. You know, the question immediately made me think of that 100%. But the question then becomes like, is this a person who is mentally unwell, who is having an episode, or is this someone who is divinely contacted and compelled to write a work that could be seen as a sacred text?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Or possibly someone who sees opportunity? Because I don't think it's either. Or I think there's a third option.

[Noel Brown]

That's very true. There is a secret third thing that you just illuminated so well. So to accomplish this task that he was tasked with. And again, we're just. We're speaking speculatively here. God gave Swedenborg. Well, is it. Was it Jesus or was it God? I guess they're one in the same, depending on, you know.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, there's. The Holy Ghost is hanging around somewhere too.

[Ben Bollen]

But, yeah, they franchise.

[Noel Brown]

So he gifts Swedenborg with some. Some ability.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, he says, okay, Manny, you can now freely visit heaven and hell. And you can talk with the angels, you can talk with the demons, you could talk with other spirits. And then this continues for years. By the way, Manny feels that he is in communication with the divine. And later, God, or Jesus Christ, if you like, tells Manny, oh, by the way, the Last Judgment was also a real thing. It already happened in 1757. You're in the aftermath.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, I do like the detail here, Ben, because I think the question that I posed earlier about how some of this stuff jived with, you know, more religious outlooks. This guy claimed to be able to dip right on into heaven, you know, whereas I think when we think of ghosts and contact with them, we think of ones that are sort of still hanging around.

[Ben Bollen]

Oh, yeah, yeah. He has this. Okay, so he writes prolifically over the last a little less than 30 years of his life. He has 18 published theological works, we could call them. And Even now, in 2026, he has more stuff that was never officially published. The guy's on a roll. This is his new mission. And all of his or a lot of his proposed discoveries, like the pivotal ones, are way different from earlier accepted Christian thought. To your question, he describes immediate death as kind of going to a bus station or an airport terminal for the dead, like the waiting room in Beetlejuice. Just so. Yeah, yeah. So he says the real architecture of the afterlife is going to be three heavens and then three hells and this, you know, this airport terminal kind of. You get stranded there, and if you love yourself too much, then you end up going to one of the hells. And if you Love other people enough, you end up going to one of the heavens.

[Noel Brown]

Are these. Are there degrees of these hells?

[Ben Bollen]

It feels like Delta, right?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Is there a hierarchy? Is it like medallion levels?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Lowest level of. Lowest level of heaven is steerage.

[Ben Bollen]

Exactly.

[Noel Brown]

But, boy, do they dance down there. Boy, do they just cut a rug. Do a jig.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yes. Such a jig. Yes.

[Ben Bollen]

Can you imagine what. What is economy? Basic heaven.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Well, you're not allowed any carry ons unless you pay extra.

[Ben Bollen]

Okay. Right.

[Jonathan Strickland]

You don't get to pick your seat.

[Ben Bollen]

Right. And you have to negotiate the armrest.

[Jonathan Strickland]

That's right, yeah. If you're in the middle. If you're in the middle, then technically they both should be yours.

[Noel Brown]

The middle is like comfort plus, I guess. And then the top one is, you know, proper business class.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yes. Right.

[Noel Brown]

Delta One. Right.

[Jonathan Strickland]

And so you can tell we're located in Atlanta with all the Delta Taunts.

[Ben Bollen]

We're a bit cartoonishly in that sandbox. Yes.

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[Jonathan Strickland]

Moments.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

Listen to between us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Usually on this podcast will kill you. We talk about the diseases, infections, and biological threats that can make us really sick. But right now, we're doing something a little different. We're stepping back and looking at what the human body needs to keep going. When you consider what we know about sleep in humans, there's one rule that comes out. We are predictably unpredictable sleepers. We're talking about why sleep works the way it does, why our bodies don't follow neat rules. And why modern life makes rest so hard to come by. The second half of our series takes us to the digestive system with a multi part series on what happens after we eat. Okay, I just have to say that all of my favorite words apparently are digestive words. Sphincter, peristalsis, duodenum. It's fascinating, it's funny, and it matters so much more than you think. Episodes of our new series run from Jeff January 20 through February 17, with new episodes every Tuesday on the Exactly Right Network. Listen to this Podcast Will Kill youl as part of the Exactly Right Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts on the Adventures of Curiosity Cove Podcast. What if the Right Fit isn't what everyone expects? In the case of the Right Fit, Ella explores movement, confidence and belonging and learns that not all strength looks the same. Tennis is powerful, fast, focused and kind of fun. Strong swing, Ella this Women's History Month story introduces kids to women who change sports by trusting themselves and moving differently. A thoughtful episode about identity, courage, and helping kids discover where they truly belong. So it's okay if I'm not quite sure what my thing is yet. It's absolutely okay when and if you do find a sport you love, you may be the next Gertrude, Tony or Venus at Curiosity Cove. Listen to Adventures of Curiosity Cove every Monday from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Danielle Robaix, host of Bookmarked, the podcast by Reese's Book Club. And this week on Bookmarked, we're basically hosting the Ultimate Girls Night. Reese Witherspoon, Jennifer Garner, Judy Greer, Rita Wilson and Gauri Rice and author Laura Dave. These are the women behind season two of the Apple TV series. The last thing he told me we're talking about turning a book into a hit show and what it really takes to bring a story to life. The most important metric for me is do I want to share this book with somebody? That's what creates community. And that's the main thesis of our book club. And why we started it was just to connect people together. Listen to the bookmarked by Reese's Book Club podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bollen]

So our buddy Manny or Swedenborg, because I'm being a bit too familiar with him, he further said, I pretty much have the world's most the metaphysical version of the best passport ever. I have encountered and spoken with Spirits on every possible plane of hell and heaven in that weird waiting room. I'm kind of like he said, Robin Williams character in what Dreams May Come.

[Noel Brown]

He loved that movie.

[Ben Bollen]

He loved it so.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Dear thing I like best about that is that it later would get remade in a movie titled Looper.

[Ben Bollen]

Oh, yeah. Oh, man. Looper. Have you guys seen Noel? Have you seen Looper?

[Noel Brown]

I've seen Looper. Yeah, I do like Looper. I don't understand the connection between Looper and what Dreams May Come.

[Ben Bollen]

Well, it's kind of about the spiritualism movement, really is what Looper is.

[Jonathan Strickland]

It could also.

[Noel Brown]

I thought Looper was about time travel type stuff.

[Jonathan Strickland]

It could be a very long running, terrible inside joke between me and Ben Bolin.

[Noel Brown]

I see. Okay. I am out in the cold on this one, guys. All I remember about what Dreams May Come is that hell was hella bad cgi. That's all I remember.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Max von Sydow in it.

[Ben Bollen]

Oh, yeah, he's the psychologist.

[Noel Brown]

You can really see the glowing edges of the green screen around all of their bodies.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I remember. I remember wanting that movie to be better than what it was.

[Noel Brown]

100%.

[Ben Bollen]

100% beautiful. I remember watching it and thinking, if I didn't speak English, I would love this even more. It also features good friend of the Show, Cuba Gooding Jr. No, that's an

[Noel Brown]

inside joke between me and Ben. That's not a joke at all. Just a harrowing tale being accosted by Kuba. It's true. Jonathan, have we not told you this story?

[Jonathan Strickland]

I. I have not heard it, but I think unless your listeners have never heard the story, maybe we could move it along and we'll talk about it.

[Noel Brown]

He forced me to eat a chicken wing. That's all.

[Ben Bollen]

He forced old eat a chicken wing.

[Noel Brown]

Leave it at that.

[Ben Bollen]

So along with. Okay, along with clearly what Dreams May Come and Looper fan Swedenborg. There's another guy who influences the spiritualism movement. His name is Franz Mesmer. He's the inventor of the very humbly named Mesmerism.

[Noel Brown]

Can't say it without wiggling your fingers.

[Ben Bollen]

You gotta wiggle the fingers. Yeah. Okay, so let's get some quick background on Franz.

[Noel Brown]

Absolutely. Yeah. Why don't you give it to us, Jonathan?

[Jonathan Strickland]

All right. Yeah. So 18th century, so we're still talking 1700s here. Australian healer. By the time you get all the way up into early mid century 19th century, the ideas that he was talking about were starting to make their way over to the not so new world at this point. But the United States and we have a great quote from the Smithsonian, which is quote, mesmer proposed that everything in the universe, including the human body, was

[Ben Bollen]

governed by a Jonathan Noel. Dylan and I are so sorry. Could you please do it in one of your legendary European accents?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Oh, yes. Because of the European curators of the Smithsonian. Sure. Here we go. Quote. See, I'll do a. I'll do English because I feel good about that. Right. So we'll do nice, posh English.

[Noel Brown]

I feel great about the English.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Here we go.

[Ben Bollen]

Cool to have feelings.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Mesmer proposed that everything in the universe, including the human body, was governed by a magnetic fluid that could become imbalanced, causing illness. By waving his hands over a patient's body, he induced a mesmerized hypnotic state that allowed him to manipulate the magnetic force and restore health. Amateur mesmerists became a popular attraction at parties and parlors, a few proving skillful enough to attract paying customers. Some who awakened from a mesmeric trance claimed to have experienced visions of spirits from another dimension.

[Noel Brown]

Pick a pocket or two.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Thank you. Yeah. A man's got a heart, hasn't he? Yeah. So, little thing I want to throw in here that's interesting to me is you have to keep in mind that this is also around the time when the scientific world is starting to investigate electromagnetism. Right. Magnetism itself had been observed for millennia, but this is a time where electromagnetism is starting to be examined. Not understood yet, but examined.

[Noel Brown]

It wasn't until the Insane Clown Posse came along that we fully understood, and

[Jonathan Strickland]

they really asked, how do magnets work? Yeah. So you can, you know, you're seeing forces that are able to act upon one another without any visible interaction. Right. So that, I think, also helps support. Support these beliefs that something spiritual either is happening there or could also happen. Because if you can have an invisible force in front of you, like, you can see that there's something happening, but you can't see what the actual force is, then why not a spiritual force as well?

[Noel Brown]

So was gravity. I mean, fully. I mean, it would have been understood.

[Jonathan Strickland]

No, that wouldn't. That didn't come out until the 2000s. Sandra Bullock hadn't been born yet.

[Ben Bollen]

Right, right.

[Noel Brown]

No, but I mean, the notion of gravity being invisible force. Yeah, but I. Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Bollen]

You see the effects. Right. But you don't see the mechanism at play.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Exactly.

[Noel Brown]

It's also a little less sexy than Magnus because you can totally use Magnus to do all kinds of woo woo looking stuff.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Sure. Yeah, absolutely.

[Ben Bollen]

100%. And people did yeah. So we have one more guy to add to our origin story here. Andrew Jackson, wait for it, Davis. So not the other Andrew Jackson. Andrew Jackson Davis comes along way after Manny and Mesmer. And this guy strikes me as, I'm going to be unfair here. He strikes me as kind of a. A train kid. Like he strikes me as one of those woo woo guys you might see in certain areas of different cities. Here we have little five, Right.

[Noel Brown]

He's popping around with a dog with a bandana maybe, maybe reading your cards, you know.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Right?

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, yeah, Nailed it, dude. He's a self described seer and he's a faith healer. And he says, okay, I'm going to take the ideas of Mesmer and Swedenborg and I'm going to put them together and I'm going to go into mesmeric trances and Manny Swedenborg himself is going to speak to me and I'll record these messages and I'll publish them and in a huge book, actually a very long book called the Principles of Her Divine Revelations and a Voice to Mankind. Very humble.

[Noel Brown]

I'm intrigued.

[Jonathan Strickland]

This also makes me think of a Joseph Smith kind of story. Right. Except we're now a step removed where you're not talking to an angel or to God, but rather someone who claims that they communed with God and angels and demons as well.

[Ben Bollen]

I know a guy who knows a guy.

[Noel Brown]

Always a little sus when someone says they're the only ones that can do the thing and that you gotta, you know, speak through them.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I mean there was a long history of that though. Right?

[Noel Brown]

Boy, was there ever. I mean, pre intercession.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Exactly. You look at the Catholic Church and that's the whole foundation of you have the designated person who is able to commune directly with God, starting with the Pope and then trickling down.

[Noel Brown]

And forgive me for being suspicious of

[Jonathan Strickland]

those folks as well. Yeah. But saying that they were cribbing from well written notes that had been around for ages.

[Noel Brown]

Right.

[Ben Bollen]

And we're also going to at this point note that we are not casting aspersion on anybody's personal beliefs or ideology. Your path is your own. We might not follow it. I think the four of us know each other pretty well and I feel like I'm pretty read up on your personal spiritual leanings. But we are acting in good faith, unlike some mediums when we say there's always a question about profit and popularity with these people. P r o F I t as well as P R o F P R o P H E T so

[Jonathan Strickland]

profit, you Got there. You got there?

[Ben Bollen]

I got there eventually. Took a long walk for it.

[Noel Brown]

Well, no, I mean, I think, you know, there's a lot of things that are very, very powerful and, you know, useful in religion. And I think people. There are certain people that follow it as a way of life that allows them to be empathetic and kind to others. And, you know, your beliefs, your own. But I just personally kind of have a problem with someone that says, I'm the only way for you to talk to God. Like that just bugs me inherently.

[Jonathan Strickland]

If everyone in religion conducted their way similar to how Mr. Rogers did, I would be beside myself, and I would love to see that. But I understand exactly where Ben and Noel are coming from. I, too, respect people's beliefs, but I do not respect those who would prey upon others and specifically target vulnerabilities that their target audience have in an effort to benefit themselves. And unfortunately, when we're talking about spiritualism, maybe not even a majority, but certainly a significant number of practitioners were doing exactly that.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah. And it starts with. We'll give you the straight poop. It starts with a prank that goes out of hand. So, all right, it's 1847. Our guy, Andrew Jackson Davis, takes the work or the beliefs of these other two dudes, mixes it all together and

[Noel Brown]

says, bit of a cosmic gumbo.

[Ben Bollen]

Bit of a cosmic gumbo. We used to joke about that on set. And that's 1847. Right. One year later, in 1848, he believes that his prediction about his spiritual understandings is proven correct due to the infamous Fox sisters. This is the origin story kicking into high gear. March 31, 1848, Hydesville, New York, upstate. You got a teenager. Her name's Maggie Fox. She's 14. She's got a younger sister named Kate, who is 11. They have an older sister named Leah that we'll get to later. She's living somewhere else, but these kids start doing a little pranky prank.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah. And if you hear this story and you think, wow, this sounds kind of similar to other stories I have heard, largely in the realm of poltergeist activity. I would say there's some commonalities that exist across these stories. Not to say that everyone involved in them manufactured the situation themselves, but certainly that was the case in some of these occurrences. And this is a prime example. And it makes me think, I don't know about you two. I'm sure that this is the case, but if you've ever told a little lie, thinking this is just going to help me smooth this situation, Over. I just want this situation smoothed over for whatever it may be. I'm going to tell this little lie. It'll get me through this. I'll be okay. But then people pay more attention to that little lie than they would have if you had just not said anything, and it would have been fine. So then you have to keep committing to the little lie, and you keep committing and like, your life becomes very much entangled with this little lie until it's become a huge lie. I feel a lot of empathy toward the Fox sisters because I feel like they got caught up in that. And at a certain point, they could not extricate themselves because there was just way too much pressure to keep the story going.

[Ben Bollen]

Right. Yeah. Okay. So again, I love that comparison. These are children, to be clear. These are not cynical late middle age grifters. These are kids who one day tell their mom something is talking to us by knocking on the walls or the furniture, and we'll show you, mom. And the mom asked, how many children do I, mother Fox, have? And the spirit appeared to communicate the correct number of children through taps and knocks. And they later, you'll hear this story described different ways, but sometimes they'll say Maggie and Kate intentionally sought out a neighbor and chased them down to tell them the story. But then other times it sounds like they just ran into their neighbor and they said, hey. Every night around bedtime, we hear a series of knocks and raps. And they're definitely coming from some otherworldly intelligent force. And the neighbor says, you're like 11 and 14. Are you serious? But I don't have cable. I don't have television yet. I do need to be entertained. I'll go to your house, you show me what's happening. And they persuade the neighborhood.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, yeah, well. And it's an effective demonstration because to the neighbor's perspective, there's no visual cause of the rapping sound. Like it's not obvious to the neighbor. And so the next conclusion they jump to is that some unseen force is making this noise. And again, we're in an era where unseen forces are becoming more and more of a known quantity. We don't understand them fully yet, but we're talking about things like electromagnetic radiation, where, again, you can't see it, but you can see the effects, so why not?

[Ben Bollen]

And we've got to give credit here to the Fox family. They hear this news, word is spreading around their part of town that something odd is going on at their household. And they make the decision that everyone should make at the beginning of a horror film. They say, we're going to leave.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Too bad we can't stay.

[Ben Bollen]

Too bad we can't stay. And they sent Maggie and Kate to live with their older sister, Leah Fox. Her married name was Leah Fox Fish over in Rochester. And that's where things get interesting, because Rochester has its own sort of milieu or folklore or past.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, this would become the birthplace of numerous movements. Right. Not just spiritualism, but others as well, which to me is just kind of, again, it's a convergence that I find really fascinating. I would love to learn more about the history and development of Rochester and what were the root causes or maybe root elements that kind of allowed this to ferment, because it is. Maybe it's just coincidence and it has no connective tissue whatsoever. But I did not know any of this before we started putting these notes together.

[Ben Bollen]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. To your earlier point, Noel, this is the birthplace of Mormonism, the Fingerlings region, as well as Millerism, which eventually becomes Seventh Day Adventism. So the local population, we could say, is already primed to question existing ideology or spiritual belief systems, and they're already primed to be open minded to alternate pitches.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking after I posed that initial question about, like, you know, the religiosity of the United States, because it was at this point, secularism was starting to creep in a little bit more. And so it was a little more almost in vogue to question some of these norms, which is, I think, really the attitude that allowed this stuff to flourish.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

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[Ben Bollen]

me, Heather Dubrow, and me, Terry debrow. Between Us isn't about perfect lighting or curated Instagram grids.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

It's the unfiltered behind closed doors conversations you wish you could eavesdrop on. Equal parts smart, funny, and a little bit scandalous.

[Ben Bollen]

Every week, Heather will bring you an unapologetic take on the headlines, the trends, and the cultural moments everyone stands texting about.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

And Terry will deliver insider beauty, health and wellness insights you won't find on TikTok.

[Ben Bollen]

Together, we'll tell the stories, spill the secrets, and share the hacks that keep life, marriage, and everything in between feeling fresh and fun.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

We may live in a gated community, but there's zero gatekeeping here and plenty

[Ben Bollen]

of did they just say that?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Moments.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

Listen to between us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Podcast on the Adventures of Curiosity Cove Podcast what if the Right fit isn't what everyone expects? In the case of the Right Fit, Ella explores movement, confidence and belonging and learns that not all strength looks the same. Tennis is powerful, fast, focused and kind of fun. Strong swing Ella this Women's History Month story introduces kids to to women who change sports by trusting themselves and moving differently. A thoughtful episode about identity, courage, and helping kids discover where they truly belong. So it's okay if I'm not quite sure what my thing is yet. It's absolutely okay when and if you do find a sport you love. You may be the next Gertrude, Tony, or Venus at Curiosity Cove. Listen to Adventures of Curiosity Cove every Monday from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Usually on this podcast, We'll Kill youl, we talk about the diseases, infections and biological threats that can make us really sick. But right now we're doing something a little different. We're stepping back and looking at what the human body needs to keep going. When you consider what we know about sleep in humans, there's one rule that comes out we are predictably unpredictable sleepers. We're talking about why sleep works the way it does, why our bodies don't follow neat rules, and why modern life makes rest so hard to come by. The second half of our series takes us to the digestive system with a multi part series on what happens after we eat. Okay, I just have to say that all of my favorite words apparently are digestive words. Sphincter, peristalsis, duodenum. It's fascinating, it's funny, and it matters so much more than you think. Episodes of our new series run from January 20 through February 17, with new episodes every Tuesday on the Exactly Right Network. Listen to this podcast Will Kill youl as part of the Exactly Right Network. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bollen]

I went and sat on the little

[Noel Brown]

ottoman in front of him and I said, hi dad. And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen and

[Ben Bollen]

she says, I have some cookies and milk.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

Badass.

[Noel Brown]

Convict me just finished five years.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I'm gonna have cookies and milk at Mom.

[Ben Bollen]

On the CENO Show Podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor cultural icon Danny Trejo. Talk about Addiction, transformation, and the power of second chances the entire season. Season 2 is now available to binge, featuring powerful conversations with the guests like

[Noel Brown]

Tiffany Adish, Johnny Knoxville, and more. I'm an alcoholic, and without this program, I'm gonna die.

[Ben Bollen]

Open your free iHeartRadio app, search the

[Noel Brown]

Cino show and listen. Now,

[Ben Bollen]

This is where we get to the upper crust of Rochester. Isaac and Amy Post. Now, they're doing very well for their time in their area. They're not having the best personal life because they've recently lost a daughter. So they are intrigued by the story of the Fox sisters, especially this rumor that's been growing that says the spirit they spoke to in their original home belonged to a peddler who had been murdered five years earlier at the farmhouse. No one can prove it. Law and Order SVU is not really a thing, right. Nor is, honestly forensic science. So from there, based off this story, the Post family says, hey, Fox kiddos, come to our house. We want to see if you can communicate with spirits in a different location. Whatever they heard, they were convinced. They said, hey, we can hear the knocks, the raps. We think the older sister, Leah, is a medium as well. She put us in touch with our daughter, even though our daughter has recently died. This would prove to be the engine of spiritualism's success to the earlier point, targeting the vulnerable.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, Grief is a powerful motivator, as we will see time and again when we go through these stories, that it's what allows the opportunity for people who would take advantage of others.

[Noel Brown]

Hope is a hell of a drug, right?

[Jonathan Strickland]

It is.

[Noel Brown]

It is truly, if you're offered that whatever, however long of a shot it might seem. And I've been watching this show, the Pit, on hbo. It's like a hospital show. And there's a plot line where these parents have basically, their child has potentially become brain dead due to a drug overdose. And they keep insisting on further tests and further tests and further tests, holding out the hope that one of these tests is gonna be the one that truly allows them to believe that he might come back. And it's heartbreaking to see. Cause the doctor the whole time kind of knows that it's futile. But he also is sort of on the fence because he wants to give them a little bit of hope. But some of his colleagues are like, it's fals. But that's a tricky thing.

[Jonathan Strickland]

This would also be when we'd see it had already been a technique for as long as humans have been able to manipulate one another, but sort of a codified approach to what we would call cold reading or warm reading. Obviously, cold reading is where you go very general with your statements and then you start to see what's hitting and you gradually get more specific.

[Ben Bollen]

I'm hearing you. I'm hearing, you know, a person, I'm hearing their name is. Jennifel.

[Noel Brown]

And obviously some people are better at it than others. There's some mentalism involved, this idea of sort of reading the room and listening and looking for certain tells. Right. And I mean, folks that can do this convincingly are employing a lot of interesting techniques and bits of psychology.

[Jonathan Strickland]

And of course, sometimes it's not totally cold either. Sometimes they might go in with a point or two of data that they can use to kind of establish a foundation and then build upon it. And I'm not even suggesting that everyone who does this does so with the knowing intent to deceive. It may be that they are not really consciously doing this, but that is the. They're essentially following the same roadmap. They just didn't do it in a malicious way. But there are plenty who have.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, they drink their own flavor age. Perhaps they believe their own magic. Okay, all right. We're here for the long haul.

[Jonathan Strickland]

So the troubles. The troubles, Jonestown. Do we want to throw in any others in here?

[Ben Bollen]

Oh, gosh, we'll keep going. We'll see where we go.

[Noel Brown]

I think I mentioned 9, 11 at one point.

[Jonathan Strickland]

You did.

[Ben Bollen]

As a drink, as a cocktail proposition. And the. Okay, so the Post family, they are impressed. For whatever reason, they genuinely feel the Fox sisters have connected them to their daughter who died too soon. They stage another get together in the largest public hall in Rochester. We're talking 400 people coming to watch this show. Afterwards, skeptics examine the Fox sisters and they say, we have no idea how they could have faked these noises. They don't have any little hammers, clackers, or wood blocks or maracas, which is a thing we don't know exist at the time. They said to each other, same reason

[Jonathan Strickland]

why they were having so much trouble with what dreams may come, you know?

[Ben Bollen]

Right, right. All right, then we get to. We can fast forward a bit that this is where we see our buddy Davis. He hears about the Rochester incident and he says, oh, Fox sisters, come to my home in the Big Apple. Let me watch your show for myself. I want to figure out if it jibes with what I think about the universe and everything involved. And he knew. This is again, that third cynical point. He knew that if he co signed these kids and said they were legitimate mediums, then this could be good for his career as a self professed prophet.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah. Typical agent, right?

[Noel Brown]

Looking for the angle and the percentage. Thus was the birth of spiritualism. And business was hot, guys. It was really taking off.

[Jonathan Strickland]

It turns out a lot of people were dying, so that kind of helped.

[Noel Brown]

It is a regular occurrence. It is sort of part of life. So spiritualism really, really was off to the races. To your point, Jonathan, it appealed to Americans weary of the kind of more pedantic, kind of Calvinistic approach to predestination. It allowed people that considered themselves to be reform minded, open to new ideas of the mid 19th century. It was a great way of, you know, kind of bolstering some of those beliefs about oneself. Right.

[Jonathan Strickland]

You could feel like you could really manifest your destiny.

[Ben Bollen]

Da da da da da. Yeah. It has this new car smell to it. Spiritualism. A lot of. We talked about how a lot of Christian denominations, Catholicism in particular, make this big deal about the concept of. Of intercession. You got to have a middleman between you and divinity. Spiritualism takes that old chestnut and kind of rolls it across the table. American spiritualists in particular are saying, okay, I can have, through a medium or through my own training, direct communication with those who have passed. They will give me insight into the ultimate fate of the soul, which means that I can have a direct hand in my own salvation. This is the can do American attitude of the time. Forget the stuffy books. Forget those crotchety, creepy priests. I'm going to roll up my sleeves. I'm going to hold a seance. I will be the person who saves my soul.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah. I mean, you can see elements of this to this day. Right. Like the Parker brothers Ouija board is in many ways the descendant of this kind of thing where you get a group of friends together and you're able to commune with either spirits or other ethereal entities that communicate through you. Like everything from automatic writing to. There was telegraphy, There was spiritual telegraphy at this time. There were all these different possible conduits of communication that were being explored and exploited by mediums of the age.

[Ben Bollen]

Oh, and the Fox sisters go on tour. Right? This was always interesting to me. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

They conducted their sessions in various homes of affluence, you know, community members across the country. One in particular, infamous series of sessions took place in the parlor of the Barnum Hotel, which was owned by the cousin of Mr. Barnum himself. The greatest showman sucker born. Every minute, 100%. I don't think it's lost on us. The irony there. Or maybe it's the opposite. I don't know. Irony is the right word. But it is fascinating that Barnum was such a huckster himself. And then this name shows up here as well. And they did three shows a day around this giant table where they would invite as many as 30 folks to attend. They did a 10 o', clock, a 5 o' clock, and an 8 o', clock, occasionally taking time aside for private meetings in between. I imagine those cost a little more.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I like the fact that they did the whole stage door thing. This really does feel like the equivalent of going to see a Broadway show today.

[Ben Bollen]

Oh, 100%, yeah. And there were plenty of people, to be clear, who denounced the Fox sisters as fakes. And some people did correctly guess that they were just cracking their joints, their toes in particular. But a lot of other people did believe they were witnessing a true paranormal phenomenon. The admission was $1 at the time. The visitors were not your average. Hey, I'm walking in New Yorker. The show did, to your point, Jonathan, become the thing to see, like going to see Hamilton, right? Whatever the modern Broadway hit is. And so all the great minds and the upper crust wanted to hang out with the Fox sisters. You see philanthropists like New York society guys, Horace Greeley, the editor of the New York Tribune. You see poets like William Cullen Bryant. You also see abolitionists and social activists like William Lloyd Garrison. And each of these people walks away from the show most of the time at the beginning, they walk away from the show thinking that whatever these spirits said absolutely supports, validates and encourages their preexisting beliefs.

[Noel Brown]

And, you know, we talked about this recently with the incredible hosts of the podcast Hoaxed about the incident involving also two young girls who kind of faked a picture, a photograph of these fairies. And it came up that they were pretty easily spotted as fake. But the power of belief was so strong that many learned individuals were taken in by it, including Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who is like the king of legends, reasoning and deduction, through his character, anyway, of Sherlock Holmes.

[Jonathan Strickland]

His name will come back into play in this conversation as well, because he was. We'll talk more about the reasons why he began to embrace spiritualism. But yeah, actually the calling fairies, like the birth of photography, is another thing that I think helps contribute to the rise of spiritualism, because again, you're able to capture a moment in time and

[Noel Brown]

it seems a little woo woo even now. Like, what the. How does that work? It's crazy.

[Jonathan Strickland]

And it has a connection with death, right? Because in Victorian England, one of the big ideas behind grief was to take a post mortem photo with your recently deceased family member and the rest of the family all gathered around them to preserve that memory forever. So there is an association between the supernatural and. And technology because to most people, photography seemed akin to magic.

[Noel Brown]

It is absolutely, like I said, I mean, I'm not even being sarcastic. So many of those things, even to this day feel that way to me. I mean, I know they can be explained, but it is, for all intents and purposes, a certain kind of magic. Not to mention versions of what you're talking about, Jonathan. Pre photography where things like death masks were created, you know, to preserve similar way, you know, the image of a deceased loved one.

[Ben Bollen]

Shout out to everybody who just recited that Arthur C. Clarke quote in their head. And here we see that the Fox sisters continue their. They continue their path to stardom. Leah will stay in New York for a while, and Kate and Maggie go on the road. Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus, Washington, Philadelphia and more. For now, we're going to give the Fox clan a break. We're going to learn how spiritualism overall skyrocketed in popularity and then why it fell. That's our plot twist right there, folks.

[Noel Brown]

Indeed. I am looking forward to it. So huge thanks to Jonathan Strickland, AKA thequizzitre, who's here to be. Thanks to his. His to his face.

[Ben Bollen]

And thank you for being so well behaved today.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Of course, I mean, like you're. You're talking about a subject that has fascinated me since literally since childhood. So I was so excited to be on here. I hope I did not interject too much.

[Noel Brown]

Not at all. But it is also clear why you are the way you are.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Wow.

[Ben Bollen]

That's fair.

[Jonathan Strickland]

That's fair. All right, I'm going to be quiet now. Why don't we.

[Ben Bollen]

No, no, come on. You got to co sign us on some of this. I think we can all agree that we owe a big, big thanks to our guest super producer Dylan, the Tennessee Pal Fake. And Dylan, how do we go? How's our Ouija board looking for this one?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Sorry, what'd you say?

[Noel Brown]

That's the response I always get whenever I talk to the Ouija board. It's like, excuse, I'm sorry, I didn't

[Jonathan Strickland]

catch that check back later.

[Noel Brown]

As the Ouija board might say if

[Jonathan Strickland]

it was also an eight ball.

[Ben Bollen]

You guys.

[Noel Brown]

Unclear.

[Ben Bollen]

I got years ago for my girl, I got a Gudetama version of a Magic 8 ball. Gudetama is a very lazy egg in Japanese culture. It's like a famous character and it always says for another time. And that's what we're doing today. Join us later in the week. We can't wait to come back with part two of the Rise and Fall of the Spiritualism Movement, featuring none other than our own Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quizzter.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Thanks, guys.

[Noel Brown]

Huge thanks to Christopher Odis and Eve's Jeffcoats. Here in spirit super producer Max the Madman Williams and his brother Alex Williams, who composed this banging bop.

[Ben Bollen]

Big, big thanks to Dr. Rachel Big Spinach, Lance AJ, Bahamas Jacobs and of course, the rude dudes of Ridiculous Crime. If you like us, you'll love them, everybody. Check out the old episodes of Tech stuff about similar historical events.

[Noel Brown]

We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

Then she says, have you seen a photo of my son? And I'm like, who is this person?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Welcome to the Boys and Girls Podcast.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

Arranged marriage is basically a reality show and you're auditioning for your soulmate. And who's judging? Only your entire family. I sacrificed myself to this ancient tradition

[Jonathan Strickland]

hoping to find love the right way, and instead I found chaos, comedy and

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

a lot of cringe.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Listen to boys and Girls on the

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald had his own rules. Segregation in the day, integration at night.

[Ben Bollen]

It was like stepping in another world.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

Was he a businessman? A criminal? A hero?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

Charlie's Place from Atlas Obscura and visit Myrtle Beach. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This Women's History Month the podcast Keep It Positive Sweetie celebrates the power of women, choosing healing, purpose and faith. Even when life gets messy, love is not a destination.

[Noel Brown]

You have to work on it every day.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

Keep It Positive Sweetie creates space for honest conversations on self worth, love, growth, and navigating life with grace and grit, led by women who uplift, inspire and tell the truth out loud.

[Noel Brown]

I have several conversations with God and I know why it took 20 years

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to hear this and more. Listen to Keep It Positive sweetie on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. It's the new me and it's the old them. This Women's History Month the podcast if you knew better with Amber Grimes spotlights women who turned missteps into momentum and lessons into power. My, like, tunnel vision of, like, I gotta achieve this was off the strengths of like, I want to make a better life for us. If you KNEW Better brings real talk from women who've lived it, unpacking career pivots, relationship lessons, and the mindset shifts that changed everything. Let's listen to if youf Knew Better with Amber grimes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.