The Thai Restaurant Conspiracy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ridiculous History – "The Thai Restaurant Conspiracy"

Podcast: Ridiculous History
Hosts: Ben Bowlin, Noel Brown
Episode: The Thai Restaurant Conspiracy
Date: January 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Ben and Noel dive into the surprising global proliferation of Thai restaurants, uncovering the history, culinary foundations, and—most notably—the purposeful effort by the Thai government to popularize its cuisine worldwide, a campaign known as "gastrodiplomacy." Through stories, historical context, and their trademark banter, the hosts illuminate how a relatively small nation turned food into its most potent cultural export.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Universal Appeal of Thai Food

• Opening Bites: Both hosts profess their love for Thai cuisine, celebrating its flavor complexity, diversity, and adaptability.
  • Noel reminisces about working in a restaurant that served Thai food:

    "Big fan. One of my favorite things to cook...I love making a green curry, veggie or meated, you know, whatever you got, I'm here for it." (01:15)

• Why is Thai food everywhere?
  • The hosts note the strange ubiquity of Thai restaurants worldwide:

    "Wherever you and I go in our many adventures on the road, we always find a Thai restaurant. Isn’t that strange?" (03:57)

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The Roots of Thai Cuisine

• Ancient Inspirations & Geography
  • Thai food evolved from an ancient melting pot of influences—Chinese, Indian, and Southeast Asian neighbors, plus a climate rich in biodiversity.

    "This is a country that has...been at a cultural crossroads...There's nothing quite like Thai food." (03:07)

  • Variety due to Buddhism and regional specialties:

    “Instead of meat being the lead guitar in a song, it’s an instrument that goes into this complex kind of harmony.” (13:56)

• Foundational Categories:
  • The hosts break down four core Thai culinary traditions:
    • Yam (spicy salads)
    • Tam (pounded foods, mortar and pestle)
    • Kang (curries, Indian influence)
    • Tom (boiled dishes, soups)
      (17:06–17:31)
  • Chinese and Indian techniques (frying, curries) and even Portuguese influences entered the cuisine from the 16th century on.

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Gastrodiplomacy: The Real “Conspiracy”

• Not an Accident:
  • Ben introduces the concept:

    "This global popularity is not organic and it is not accidental...Gastrodiplomacy is the idea that the easiest way to win hearts, minds, global support and tourism dollars...is to go through the stomach of the people who live there." (23:13)

• A Strategic Governmental Push (2000s-onward):
  • In the early 2000s, the Thai government launched major gastrodiplomacy programs:
    • "Kitchen of the World" and later the "Global Thai Program"
    • Massive loans and training for Thai nationals abroad to open restaurants
    • Thai Select: certification for authentic Thai ingredients abroad
    • Thai Airways supported transport of ingredients and equipment

    "They funded it quite heavily...a yearly budget of 500 million baht to provide loans and training to Thai nationals or people of Thai descent who wanted to start a Thai restaurant not there in their country, but abroad." (28:25)

  • Result: Thai restaurants worldwide skyrocketed from 5,500 (2002) to over 10,000 by 2011.

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Pad Thai: Thailand's "Super Soldier" Dish

• A National Symbol by Design:
  • The dish evolved as a response to rice shortages in the late 1930s; the government boosted it as a symbol of national unity and as the country’s edible ambassador.

    “Pad Thai is really interesting because it’s kind of like jazz...so open to interpretation that it leads to all sorts of variations. That’s why the Pad Thai we eat in Missouri or...Munich...can taste so incredibly different.” (40:15)

  • The hosts parallel Pad Thai’s role to Captain America, engineered for international appeal.

    “Think about government nerds in a secret lab...They’re trying to build a super soldier dish that the locals will love. In this analogy, like Pad Thai is our Captain America.” (36:15)

• Americanized Thai Food:
  • Much of what is served abroad is tailored for local palates, akin to Americanized Chinese food (General Tso’s, etc.).

    "Pad Thai is a lot like Americanized Chinese food...But if you go over to China, you’re certainly not going to see a lot of those, except for places that maybe cater to American tourists." (39:50)

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The Broader Impact of Gastrodiplomacy

• Success by the Numbers:

  “Despite Thai people making up just 0.1% of the United States population, there are 10,000 Thai restaurants across the country...” (34:34, quoting the Georgia Political Review)

• Imitated Worldwide:
  • Other countries have adopted similar strategies (Korea, Taiwan, Nordic nations, Israel, Peru), but few have matched Thailand’s success.
• Food as Soft Power:
  • Anthony Bourdain quoted to summarize the cultural power of food:

    "Food is everything we are. It's an extension of nationalist feeling...your personal history, your province, your region, your tribe, your grandma. It is inseparable from those from the get-go." (47:33; Bourdain, paraphrased)

  • Ben:

    "If you want to really know a place, you gotta eat what they eat." (48:55)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Gastrodiplomacy is the idea that the easiest way to win hearts, minds, global support and tourism dollars...is to go through the stomach of the people who live there." – Ben (23:13)
• "Play to your strengths. That's a great point." – Ben (46:10)
• "Pad Thai is a lot like Americanized Chinese food...but if you go over to China, you’re certainly not going to see a lot of those, except for places that maybe cater to American tourists." – Noel (39:50)
• "Food is everything we are. It's an extension of nationalist feeling..." – Anthony Bourdain, quoted by Ben (47:33)
• "[Thai food’s rise is] a successful conspiracy." – Ben (35:08)
• "If you want to really know a place, you gotta eat what they eat." – Ben (48:55)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:15 – Noel’s early experiences cooking Thai food, celebrations of Thai cuisine's vibrancy
• 03:07–03:57 – The curiosity: Why are Thai restaurants everywhere, from Berlin to small-town America?
• 11:11–14:20 – The ancient, multicultural roots of Thai cuisine
• 17:06–17:31 – The four core categories of Thai food explained
• 23:13 – Introduction to gastrodiplomacy: deliberate global food export
• 28:25 – The Thai government’s targeted campaigns: Kitchen of the World, Global Thai Program
• 32:56–33:54 – Thai restaurant numbers boom globally; why so many in America?
• 36:15 – Pad Thai as cultural "super soldier": adapted for the world
• 39:50–41:24 – The invention, adaptation, and symbolism of Pad Thai
• 44:08–45:08 – Pad Thai’s nationalistic role during WWII; connection to scarcity
• 46:09–48:07 – Cultural power of food; Anthony Bourdain’s philosophy
• 50:00 – Gastrodiplomacy imitators: Korea, Peru, Israel, Scandinavia
• 51:00 on – Hosts’ banter about spice levels, German/Thai food culture, credits

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, humorous, curious: Hosts riff playfully on food, culture, and history; plenty of personal anecdotes and asides.
• Educational with playful analogies: (e.g., Pad Thai as Captain America, global culinary "conspiracy," jazz-like adaptation)
• Respectful and celebratory: of Thai cuisine and the power of food as cultural communication.

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Summary Takeaway

The global abundance of Thai restaurants isn’t just a happy accident or the result of innate deliciousness. It’s the product of a savvy, well-funded, and ongoing campaign by the Thai government to win friends worldwide through irresistible food. Thai cuisine is both ambassador and agent, making the world a little more delicious—and forging connections from Berlin to Buford Highway.

Transcript

[Ben Bollen]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartradio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man, the myth, the legend, Max Pad Thai Williams.

[Noel Brown]

Max Pad Cu. Williams. Max.

[Ben Bollen]

Hey, nice Williams.

[Noel Brown]

That's a good one. I like Pad GRA Pro.

[Ben Bollen]

Hey, there you go. Yeah.

[Tony Robbins]

Boop.

[Noel Brown]

Williams. Well, that's. That's not on topic.

[Ben Bollen]

Max.

[Noel Brown]

That's not on brand.

[Ben Bollen]

Max Nam Williams. That's none other than the one and only Mr. Noel Brown. They call me Ben Bollen in various parts of the world. And Noel, I think it's fair to say that we love Thai food, right? You love a good Thai food dish?

[Noel Brown]

Love it. I love it. Yeah. No, sorry, that wasn't really an escalation at all. No. Big fan. One of my favorite things to cook, I got my start employment wise, working in a kitchen in a restaurant in my hometown, and they had a handful of Thai things on the menu, including a Pad Thai Thai. And that's where I kind of cut my teeth cooking. And a lot of those things have served me well to this day. I love making a green curry, veggie or meated, you know, whatever you got, I'm here for it.

[Ben Bollen]

That's awesome. Yeah. And we hope that a lot of us tuning in tonight also enjoy Thai food. If you have not tried Thai cuisine, oh, friends and neighbors, you are. You are missing out.

[Noel Brown]

What are you doing? What are you doing with your life? Get out there, get you into it. To a Thai restaurant this. This instant. Put this episode on pause and come back and then it'll be much more fun for you.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah. Come back with some noodles. Come back with a flat noodle.

[Noel Brown]

You like a flat, wide noodle. Boy, oh, boy.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah. Thailand is located in Southeast Asia, and the cuisine of the country, Thai cuisine or ahan Thai, is regularly rated as one of the best types of food on the planet. In fact, several polls just recently found that Thailand is the world's best country for food travel.

[Noel Brown]

It just has such a vibrant mix of ingredients. You know, you got your lime bright flavors, you got your curries, you got your spice, you got your crunch from the peanuts, your noodles, your bean sprouts, even sometimes you'll see basil and cilantro. It feels like such a grab bag of ingredients from other types of world cuisines. It's my favorite.

[Ben Bollen]

You nailed it, man. And I'm nodding like, take me to church style or take me to the wat. The temple Here is the issue, folks. This is a country that has Historically been at a cultural crossroads. Which means like you were saying Noel, there's nothing quite like Thai food. We also want to a big shout out to all of our fellow ridiculous historian heat loving gourmands. Including friend of the show Matt F. Who regularly requests the hottest food possible whenever you and I eat Thai food on the road.

[Noel Brown]

He's like a heat seeking missile, that guy.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, he is. Yeah he is. That's another thing about it man.

[Noel Brown]

Thai hot you talk about Ty. We'll get there.

[Ben Bollen]

We'll get there. Well, Matt sure will. Oh boy, will he. Here's the thing. I was thinking about this earlier, man. Wherever you and I go in our many adventures on the road, we always find a Thai restaurant. Isn't that strange? This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Everyone deserves to be connected. That's why T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% versus Verizon by getting built in benefits they leave out check the math@t mobile.com switch and now T Mobile is in US cellular stores.

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[Noel Brown]

It is. I mean, it will not once we get into the deets today, but I will tell you that I think, you know, I've been spending a good amount of time in Germany over the last few years, in Berlin specifically, and it has some of the best Thai food I've ever had anywhere, period. Full stop. Now, I've never been to Thailand, so reserving judgment there, but New York City, you know, Los Angeles, other parts of the world, Berlin has it beat.

[Ben Bollen]

Also, folks, just a peek behind the curtain. Not to gas you up too much, Noel, but you are pretty big deal in Germany, and I hope that you will agree on air to take Max and myself with with you at some point.

[Noel Brown]

I would love to. I wouldn't say a big deal. I was, however, once a small German boy, and that has served me well in my travels to Deutschland. I love it there. I love Berlin. It's got such a vibrant music scene and cultural scene and culinary scene that isn't just schnitzel and doners, which are also great. But, yeah, excellent Thai and Vietnamese food there in Berlin. Specifically in the neighborhood of Friedrichkein. Friedrichshine. Not Schein. Yes, yes.

[Ben Bollen]

All right, take notes, folks. Write that one down. And this. This mystified us originally as we were traveling around. You might be familiar with Germany, you might be familiar with Thailand, and you might realize that those two countries are very far away from each other. So why is there such a strong tradition of Thai cuisine across the planet? That Thailand has a population of, well, less than 80 million people, and it's not a particularly wealthy country, but Thai food and Thai restaurants are somehow a global phenomena. If you go anywhere except Antarctica, the odds are that you're going to be pretty close to a Thai restaurant, 100%.

[Noel Brown]

And this is not for nothing.

[Ben Bollen]

This is not for nothing. We started asking ourselves, we put our noggins together and we said, hey, how did this come about? How did this one relatively small area of Asia become a dominant force in the world of food? And the answer, we kid you not, folks, is a conspiracy. I don't know what sound code, what sound cue can we use some sort.

[Noel Brown]

Of dum dum dum perhaps? I don't know. We leave it to Max to decide. But it's true. This is not something that would be too out of place in our sister show. Stuff they don't want you to know, which is now available on Netflix. Two episodes a week. Can you believe it? It's out. It's out there in the world. I watched a little bit of it. It looks really good.

[Ben Bollen]

Hey, you look good.

[Noel Brown]

The video team that we work with here at iheart did a fantastic job sending us toys and lights, cameras, action, all that good stuff. And it's very and fine. Folks at Netflix have been really delightful to work with. So if you're interested in seeing our mugs plastered across your screen, do get ye to Netflix.

[Ben Bollen]

Yes, Hi, the fourth and toss us a like, toss us a double. Like a little thumbs up or whatever the nomenclature is. And you know what I'm thinking our video team worked so hard that they doubtlessly had a couple of late nights, which probably meant they ordered Thai food.

[Noel Brown]

I would like to think so. It's a very good delivery option wherever you are. Right.

[Ben Bollen]

It's so fast, it's so versatile. Anyway, to understand how this became a global thing and why it's part of our ridiculous history exploration, we have to look at the beginnings of what we call Thai food today. And Noel, I think we would both not be surprised to learn that Thai food dates back thousands and thousands of years and has a lot in common with China.

[Noel Brown]

Absolutely does. You can trace the origins of Thai food, as you said, Ben, back thousands of years when the area that we now refer to as Thailand experienced a huge influx of people from neighboring regions, including modern day China. And just like nearly anywhere else in the world, the folks living there worked with the available ingredients.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, yeah. And the interesting part here is that unlike other parts of the world, Thailand was absolutely brimming with all kinds of tasty, cool stuff, especially produce. Right. Historically, the majority of meals would feature aquatic plants or animals or herbs. Herbs for days. There's a great deal of biodiversity for.

[Noel Brown]

Sure, which lends itself to a strong tradition of regional cuisine. And unlike some of the perhaps less hospitable climates, Scandinavia. There you go. Well, yeah, yeah, for sure. What is it called? Lutefisk. No, that's different. I'm talking about the shark. The shark? Rotten shark. That's the only way they can do it. They've got to bury it in the ground until it. Yeah, it's interesting. No, no, no, no. Ding. On Scandinavian C. But I was just recently in Denmark, and while they have some fabulous food options, the local and regional cuisine. Not my bag.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah. Denmark has a grand tradition of Indonesian cuisine, 100%.

[Noel Brown]

So Thailand, on the other hand, unlike some of those colder or more arid regions, has an absolute embarrassment of delightful culinary riches and has since Thailanders were Thailanding. It was also far from isolated, surrounded by other regions with vibrant cuisines and cultures of their own. Places like India, Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar, Malaysia and Indonesia.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, yeah. Which goes back to your original point. Right. Because now Thailand, or the area that becomes modern day Thailand is amalgamating and sort of remixing all these dishes to fit local taste, availability of ingredients. And there's also a really interesting tradition of Buddhism, which means there's not a huge emphasis on meat. And I thought you would love this too, because, you know, here in the west, we often treat meat or your protein as the big tent item.

[Noel Brown]

Plop it on down like a chunk. That's your big old piece of beast there. No, they treat it with equal import and respect as they do to other ingredients.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, yeah. So now it's like instead of meat being the lead guitar in a song, it's an instrument that goes into this complex kind of harmony. We've got four, I guess we could call them rough categories of traditional Thai cuisine. And it's gonna make sense when you hear it, folks.

[Noel Brown]

Especially when you combine the strong cultural influence of Buddhism that adds to that lack of emphasis towards meat as being the center of the attraction. And Ben, real quick aside, have you been watching or have you watched Culinary Class wars on Netflix?

[Ben Bollen]

I've heard of it. I haven't checked it out. Actually, I thought of you. But as you know, I'm in a place right now where I don't get the best Netflix choices, but it's on my list.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, sometimes VPNs are not the catch all fixer upper that they used to be. A lot of these apps now detect you're using one and they will not play nice. But the thing that's so cool about culinary Class wars is I believe it's Based in Korea, but it has representation from all of these other types of cuisine, from Chinese to Japanese to even like, you know, fusion type cuisines. And speaking of the Buddhist influence, one thing that I learned about that maybe would be an interesting episode on its own sometime is the culture of temple food. There is a. A very specific culture around food prepared by monks at these sacred places of worship, which of course are going to lean entirely vegetarian. And one of my favorite contestants in the new season of Culinary Class Wars. I forget her name, but she's referred to as the venerable and then whatever her name was. And she's this delightful little monk and consistently kicks the butts of some of these meat heavy dishes with her wonderful purely vegetarian and occasionally vegan offerings.

[Ben Bollen]

Beautiful, beautiful. And we see it often for any current vegans or vegetarians in the crowd. I had put my time in as a vegan in the past. I was vegetarian for several years. And I got to tell you, vegetarian food can slap. It's all about the sauces, it's all about the spices. It's probably better for you.

[Noel Brown]

It's definitely great. I will cook vegetarian cuisine just out of love of it. It's not for any kind of health reasons. I quite often, if I'm making a Thai dish, will leave the meat out. Or if I'm making a nice chili, we'll do like a meatless chili. Just because so many wonderful ingredients that have so much flavor that they can add that are meatless.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah. Nice papaya salad, for instance, right?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Green papaya salad. Not to say that I don't love a larb, Ben. I love a larb.

[Ben Bollen]

I love a larb.

[Noel Brown]

Who doesn't love a larb? That's like sort of like a meat salad kind of thing with like minced. Minced. Minced, like pork or beef. I think it's usually pork and it has lots of lime in it. And it's just such a vibrant, wonderful, bright flavor.

[Ben Bollen]

And the fish sauce is a big deal. And I'm glad we're mentioning salads because that's one of the primary four loose categories of Thai cuisine. It's called yam spicy salads. Then you got tam pounded foods with a mortar and pestle.

[Noel Brown]

And that would be like a green papaya salad where you use a mortar and pestle to smash all that stuff up or to make your pastes as well.

[Ben Bollen]

Yes. Yeah. Just so like your som thumb and stuff. Then you have kang. Those are pretty much the curries. Very heavy Indian influence. And then you have the tom boiled Dishes. This brings in soup as well. You've got deep frying, stir frying, steaming. Those all come from Chinese culture. India got there first. Weirdly enough, in 1511, European cultures entered the menu because the Portuguese arrived and the people of modern day Thailand just started folding in Portuguese influences as well. Similar in some ways to Vietnam. Yeah, the origin story of the Banh Mi. Right.

[Noel Brown]

I was going to say the same thing, which is like got French baguettes and you know, various other more indigenous ingredients. But it really does show the influence of those good old colonizers.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, yeah, that's a way to say it for sure, man.

[Noel Brown]

Hey, we're talking about diplomacy here. Gastrodiplomacy. I just figured I would set the tone.

[Ben Bollen]

You nailed it. You nailed it, my friend. So it's strange because we consider all of this ancient history in a very real way. We could say that Thai cuisine has been global since the 16th century. But it doesn't quite answer our original question, which you've set up so beautifully here. Noel, why are Thai restaurants everywhere? The answer is gastrodiplomacy.

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[Tony Robbins]

Hey, everybody, it's Tony Robbins. Look, the time is here. It's 2026, and everybody talks about having a new year and a new life. But what do most people do? They create a few resolutions, and in the end, they don't really do anything. If you want this to be the best year you've ever had in your life, it's going to take a new tool, a new strategy, a new momentum, and maybe a new community of people to hang out with. So come join me for the Time to Rise Summit. I do it only once a year. It's coming up January 29th through the 31st. There's absolutely no charge for it, but it'll be an experience I promise you, you will not forget. It'll give you a momentum, a plan, and a strategy to make 2026 the best ever. If you're up for that, you're hungry for more, come join me. There's no cost for it whatsoever. Just go to time to riseummit.com timetorizesummit.com I'll see you then.

[Noel Brown]

Well, can I also say, Ben, leading into this, I definitely remember a time where there weren't Thai restaurants everywhere, right?

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

And it may well be that I was young and wasn't aware of that as a cuisine, as an option, maybe until I started to working in that restaurant in my 20s, but I'm pretty sure I'm right that, like, you know, I distinctly remember going to lots of Chinese food places growing up and Japanese, you know, hibachi type places, but I do not remember there being nearly as many Thai restaurants as there are today.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, this is the thing, okay? This global popularity is not organic and it is not accidental. We've mentioned the phrase a couple of times. Gastrodiplomacy is the idea that the easiest way to win hearts, minds, global support and tourism dollars is not to send a military to a foreign country. It's to go through the stomach of the people who live there. And you nailed it with saying that you don't remember, right? In your younger days, you don't remember a bunch of Thai restaurants because this gastro diplomacy of Thailand didn't really begin until the early 2000s. And shout out to our friend of the show and guest, Ross Benesh, who persuaded us to move our limit of ridiculous history up a little bit. Because if you do the 90s, this is the 2000s.

[Noel Brown]

And also shout out to friend of the show, Alex French, for taking us on a culinary journey to one of my favorite restaurants in all of New York City, which is called Wei La, which is a mega. We've been there a couple times together, Ben. It is a kind of mega plussed up, fusiony Thai restaurant that does things in a traditional way sometimes, but also does some interesting spins on it. And I find it to be one of my favorite restaurants that I've ever been to. So if you're ever in New York City, it's in the Lower east side, right on the edge of Chinatown. Do check out Wei La. Really love those guys.

[Ben Bollen]

Love them too, man. We've got to do the story just for the respect of Alex French, writing part partner of mine on a couple of different projects and also I think a huge friend of ours and a friend of the show, Noel, you use the word journey. Can you please share our. Can you, can you please share our story about Alex?

[Noel Brown]

Our buddy Alex definitely exercised a bit of a foodie flex when ordering for the table that some might look askance at. But I think it's a brilliant move.

[Ben Bollen]

You were skeptical at first.

[Noel Brown]

It yielded excellent results. He just asked the delightful server to take us on a journey.

[Ben Bollen]

And Noel and I both had these, what? These incredible, almost telepathic looks at each other when we thought, what the hell is this guy doing? We thought the. We thought the server and the staff would be mad, but lo and behold, the guy just nodded at our pal. Alex French and then gave us one of the most amazing meals of our lives.

[Noel Brown]

Well, because a place like that, typically the staff are invested in the quality of the place. They are invested in the nuances of the different dishes, and they're proud of it. So it gives them an opportunity to exercise a little kind of creative agency. And we were all utterly there for it.

[Ben Bollen]

We were. And I've got to tell you, I don't believe you or I could have pulled that move off on our own. Alex French has been a longtime foodie and food critic for places like gq. So he can get away with it.

[Noel Brown]

He sure can. Let's see. Gastrodiplocy. Oh, you know, this reminds me of Ben. This is actually a pretty good companion episode to our recent exploration of ping pong as being another kind of form of diplomacy, sport diplomacy, I guess. Right. With China and parts of Asia sort of exporting their players and their love of the game, you know, to the rest of the world.

[Ben Bollen]

Beautiful.

[Noel Brown]

Even though it started in England.

[Ben Bollen]

Right, right. And do check out that episode. That was a banger. And I was still. That was one of the episodes where after we recorded it, I found myself tempted to buy a table tennis kit.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Yeah. Once I get my garage cleared out, I may well actually do that currently. We should do a.

[Ben Bollen]

It would be super fun.

[Noel Brown]

Like I said, we can definitely get our practice in with Frank and his new table tennis setup.

[Ben Bollen]

Yes. And the term gastrodiplomacy is so recent. I think it was first popularized in an article by the economist back in 2002, specifically discussing Thailand. As conspiracies go, this is wholesome and delicious. There was a previous administration from 2001 to 2006 called the Foskin Administration, and they launched this program called Kitchen of the World. And they said, we're going to treat Thai food purposely as a cultural export. We're going to acquire soft power similar to Asiatic countries and ping pong. We're going to do something kind of like how the United States used Hollywood to popularize American culture Post World War II.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. And they put their money where their mouth was. They funded it quite heavily, and in the first couple of years, they allotted a yearly budget of 500 million baht to provide loans and training to Thai nationals or people of Thai descent who wanted to start a Thai restaurant not there in their country, but abroad.

[Tony Robbins]

Yeah.

[Ben Bollen]

So for comparison, folks, if you know where your ancestors are from, which not everybody does, imagine that country, that origin country of your ancestors came to you and said, hey, we Want you to kind of work for us and start a restaurant like Noel. You have a Swedish heritage, correct?

[Noel Brown]

I think I was vaguely Nordic. If I remember correctly, that was the earliest days of ancestry.com so it was a pretty underwhelming result. I think now with more complex mapping of the human genome and all that stuff and all of the new data, I'd probably get a little bit more info if I spit a second time.

[Ben Bollen]

So for the sake of argument, let's imagine that you got a letter from the government of Sweden that said, noel Brown, as a son of Sweden, we need you to help us with diplomacy. We want you to start a Swedish restaurant. We're going to give you interest free loans. We're going to train you to cook traditional Swedish cuisine. As a matter of fact, we'll give you a discount on ingredients. That's what the government of Thailand did. They even made a certification program called Thai select to popularize ingredients imported from Thailand, not just making them more affordable, but more available. And at the time, going back to your earlier example, a lot of these ingredients were either tremendously expensive or they were just stuff you had no chance of finding outside of Southeast Asia. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

And some of these are not the easiest things to find. Today we're really lucky here in Atlanta to be blessed with the incredible foodie core corridor of Buford highway where you can find things like kefir lime leaves and Thai chilies and stuff. But you're not always going to find things like that at your local grocery store, even in the international food section.

[Ben Bollen]

Right. And additionally, the government of Thailand uses its massive reach to rope in high value investors domestically and abroad. They even get this, guys. They even leveraged Thailand's aviation industry. Thai Airways would transport these materials and this equipment abroad. And then the tourism authority of Thailand got tapped to emphasize how cool Thai cuisine is. They were basically going around the planet and madman style making a pitch. They would say you can experience Thailand right in your own hometown. This is brilliant. It leads to another program called the Global Thai Program. At this time in 2002, there are maybe 5,500 Thai restaurants in foreign countries around the world. Not that many, right?

[Noel Brown]

No, no, certainly not. I mean, you know, Chinese restaurants would be certainly in the, in the, you know what?

[Ben Bollen]

Millions. I mean, there were a lot more. There were a lot.

[Noel Brown]

I'm just saying today, I mean, yeah, like we know that the Chinese restaurants have been a staple of American cuisine for many, many years. And they've probably only grown. So, yeah, this is a fraction, a drop in the bucket.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah. And that makes sense because there are a lot of people of Chinese descent in the United States. Right. And the country of China itself is huge. It's one of the most populous countries on the planet. Thailand is very different. A lot of people may never make it to Thailand. A lot of people may never learn the language of Thailand. But now it's making a splash on dinner plates, on bowls, on pallets, all the world round. They are literally winning hearts and minds. And the numbers prove it.

[Noel Brown]

And I'm so sorry, millions is absurd about, you know, in the close to a hundred thousand, according to some figures of Chinese restaurants in the United States. So we're going to get to how ty stacks up to that in just a little bit. So the Thai government wanted to up this number significantly from in the 500s to around 8000. And by 2011, their efforts were paying off with more than 10,000 Thai restaurants located around the world. This does not count the many more Asian fusion restaurants. I think white law would fall into that, even though they also do traditional Thai by that point. So we're not including more fusion Y type restaurants in that number.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, now we're talking about restaurants that might have a few Thai dishes on the menu. So like you were saying, learning about Pad Thai, which we'll. We'll get to in a moment because that's our. That's one of our best examples for the class.

[Noel Brown]

So there were certainly the one most people know about, right?

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah. In the west, for sure, there were restaurants that were solely Thai restaurants. And then there were many more restaurants that were also serving Thai dishes using Thai ingredients. And the boffins and the eggheads and the MBAs start studying this success. Folks at the Kellogg School of Management, partner with the Sassen Institute, and they say, holy smokes. It turns out that Thai cuisine, because of this conspiracy, has become one of the most recognizable cuisines on the planet.

[Noel Brown]

It when people were asked what their favorite ethnic cuisine was, typically you'd see folks talking about Italian food, French food, Chinese, Indian and Japanese. But suddenly Thai entered the conversation, and that trend continues very much into the modern day. The Georgia Political Review had this to say about the Thai food explosion. Despite Thai people making up just 0.1% of the United States population, there are 10,000 Thai restaurants across the country, making the cuisine one of the most popular chines choices among Americans.

[Tony Robbins]

Boom.

[Ben Bollen]

You know, there's no other way to say it. This is a successful conspiracy. The global Thai program transformed this country's cuisine from being othered and exoticized. To becoming a part of mainstream American culture. It was a clear indication of gastrodiplomacy at work and the, the.

[Noel Brown]

At work and working.

[Ben Bollen]

At work and working. Yes, sir. Now to be clear, some of the most popular Thai food in the west is a result of these programs. And the stuff you get in your local Thai restaurant may not be exactly what you would get in Thailand. I think a good analogy would be for us to say us to go to comic books or Marvel films. Think about government nerds in a secret lab. They're trying to build a super soldier dish that the locals will love. In this analogy, like pad Thai is our Captain America.

[Noel Brown]

Maybe a little less nefarious than the weapon X program though, right?

[Ben Bollen]

I love that reference.

[Jenna Kim Jones]

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[Noel Brown]

Pad Thai is a lot like Americanized Chinese food. You know, you go to a Chinese restaurant and you see things like general TSO chicken and sesame chicken and stuff, a lot of deep fried things. But if you go to a more authentic Chinese restaurants, you're not going to see those as much much or as highlighted. And if you go over to China, you're certainly not going to see a lot of those, except for places that maybe cater to American tourists.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, and Pad Thai is really interesting because it's kind of like jazz, you know, it's got key established ingredients, right. Canonical stuff. Typically you'll have some meat, tamarind for the sourness, palm sugar, fish Sauce, eggs, dried shrimp. Shrimp, garlic. You gotta have garlic. Tofu, peanuts, rice noodles, bean sprouts, et cetera. But it is so open to interpretation that it leads to all sorts of variations. That's why the Pad Thai we eat in Missouri or in San Francisco can taste so incredibly different from the same dish in Singapore or in Munich or. What's that neighborhood you named in Berlin?

[Noel Brown]

Friedrichsheim.

[Ben Bollen]

Or Friedrichsheim or Santiago, Chile. It's nuts. And you nailed it, too, because Pad Thai originally is a Chinese invention. But there's a really strong argument that Pad Thai is. It's like waving the flag of Thailand. It is diplomacy.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. And while the jazz of it all is going to yield different results depending on where you go, all of the flavors are distinctly Thai and highlighting the cuisine of Thailand, you know, without like, bastardizing it in some kind of, you know, gross way.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah. There's a story behind Pad Thai. It was mainly. Despite the Chinese origin, it was mainly invented and popularized way back in the late 1930s in Thailand because there was a rice shortage. So people wanted to promote rice noodles. They used 50% less grain, basically.

[Noel Brown]

Like the story of Fanta.

[Ben Bollen]

Oh, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Well, yeah. I mean, we talked about this. Fanta was a direct result of shortages, wartime shortages of certain ingredients. So they used, like, apple scraps to make a type of beverage that was branded as Fanta, but it was meant to be, like, a cola alternative. And it certainly wasn't originally, like, the orange Fanta that we know today. But there's just. I don't know. I'm always fascinated by scarcities leading to things that ultimately become something else in and of themselves.

[Ben Bollen]

Would you say you're fantinated?

[Noel Brown]

I am.

[Ben Bollen]

Oh, yeah. Jump in, Max. Jump in. Save me from that pun.

[Noel Brown]

No, no. You already got the drum, but no Fanta. Yeah. To no point. Fanta was actually a creation in 1940 in Nazi Germany because of embargoes, so.

[Ben Bollen]

They couldn't get the actual Coca Cola.

[Noel Brown]

Syrup in there, so they had to create something new. Who's that creeping out of your phone? It's Max. And he dropped the knowledge just for you.

[Tony Robbins]

So good.

[Noel Brown]

There he goes. Max gave you his facts, and it's still really popular in Europe today.

[Ben Bollen]

I mean, we.

[Noel Brown]

We have it over here, but it's not nearly as popular as it is, you know, in, say, Berlin Fanta.

[Ben Bollen]

Eurovision in a can.

[Noel Brown]

Exactly. And honestly, I mean, the Fanta over there hits a little different. I don't know why the bottles are shaped a little different. And I swear, the flav Slightly different and a little bit more refreshing. And we're not saying that Pad Thai isn't fantastic. It absolutely is delicious wherever you get it. I mean, not to say that there aren't some places that you get it where it is bland as all get out, and it's not inherently a spicy dish, but you also need to understand, or it's cool to understand the background, the scarcity that led to the creation of. Of it as a Thai dish and the far from accidental spreading of it as sort of a centerpiece of Thai cuisine abroad.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah. Back in the late 1930s, the Thai prime minister at the time, Plake Pibin Sokhkram, he emphasized the importance of this dish as a piece of nationalism, a representation.

[Noel Brown]

Well, before the initiative that we're about talking, this was still like them saying, we need a national dish, and this is going to be the most palatable and recognizable that we could maybe come up with.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah. It's kind of like figuring out a good hook or a good chord progression and saying you can play all the. Let's send this to garage bands across America and let them play that hook with their own instruments and see if they did 100%.

[Noel Brown]

And we've got a little bit of a wartime twist on this story as well. The Pad Thai also created a sense of Thai nationalism during World War II as a cheap street food option that a lot of Thai families really relied on.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah, yeah. And as a result, now the flavors and the role of Pad Thai. By the way, pad check just means.

[Noel Brown]

Fried, which is weird because it isn't super fried.

[Ben Bollen]

No, it's not really. But the. The. The. The name, the taste, the. The unique canonical ingredients, and the fact that you can jazz on it makes this a dish that connects people to Thai culture directly. And folks, we know this may sound a little bit sketchy. This is not our intent we're arguing. Instead, it's a peak example of ridiculous history. This is a country without a huge army, without a huge navy, without tons of financial heft, like, say, the United Kingdom colonial powers or the United States. Somehow this country managed to become a global superstar through food alone.

[Noel Brown]

Gotta play your strength.

[Ben Bollen]

Play to your strengths. That's a great point. We also have a great quote. I think it's obvious that we all love Anthony Bourdain, or at least, no, you and I love Anthony Bourdain. Max, do you like Anthony Bourdain? It's okay to say no.

[Noel Brown]

I don't know a ton about him, but a lot of people I like really like him. So I don't know, he's just. He's a classic bon vivants. You know, he was a classic like dude just going out there and trying stuff and trying his best to live his most authentic, authentic life. Sadly, he had an inner life that didn't translate to the version of himself that was on tv. While seemingly very authentic. And I'm not saying it wasn't. You never really know when people are suffering in silence. And he certainly seems to be doing that. So miss that guy, really.

[Ben Bollen]

We were all big fans, just an absolute legend. Beautiful writer, phenomenal chef as well. And he, he spent a lot of time talking about Thailand and he noted something the government of Thailand noted when they conspired to commit gastrodiplomacy. I'm sorry, I'm making it sound.

[Noel Brown]

You really are making it sound nefarious. That sounds like commit murder most foul. No, gastrodiplomacy is great. I think it's the most delightful thing.

[Ben Bollen]

Yeah. He claims clocked this universal observation. Food is one of the only things that unites all human beings. So much so that Anthony Bourdain himself once noted, food is everything we are. It's an extension of nationalist feeling, but.

[Noel Brown]

Not in like the creepy way, right?

[Ben Bollen]

Ethnic feeling, Your personal history, your province, your region, your tribe, your grandma. It is inseparable from those from the get go.

[Noel Brown]

And what an amazing way to share those things with others through flavor and actual sustenance. You know, I mean, there's really nothing like it. It's truly a way of sharing your culture and your pride in your history and your heritage in a way that people can literally stomach.

[Ben Bollen]

There we go. Well done. It humanizes all of us. If you want to learn about a culture a world away, you can read all the books you like, you can listen to all the podcasts you love, you can watch all the films that country has ever made. You can study it in college or university. But as Thailand has proved, beyond all measure of success, if you want to really know a place, you gotta eat what they eat.

[Noel Brown]

I mean, you gotta eat. Yes.

[Ben Bollen]

This episode is technically not brought to you by Checkers.

[Noel Brown]

What a slogan.

[Ben Bollen]

But we, we hope it made you hungry. And hungry as the country or as in the sensation we know that other people, other nations picked up on this concept of gastrodiplomacy and soft power. A lot of the countries that we named earlier, Noel, they saw the success of Thailand and then they started instituting similar programs. There's like a whole laundry list.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, for sure. Korea, Taiwan, several Nordic nations have given it their best shot to varying degrees of success. We are Cambodia.

[Ben Bollen]

Why is Scandinavia.

[Noel Brown]

I just don't know that it's really hit. That's all I'm saying. It hasn't really hit the way Thai or Japanese or even Peruvian. We are starting to see. I'm not saying starting to see. Like, it hasn't been a thing for some time, but there are a lot more Peruvian restaurants. Like, there's one at the damn airport here in Atlanta.

[Ben Bollen]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Peruvian food is great. We also see Israel getting into the game. This is a perfect way to communicate with people past diplomatic red tape. And with that, before we. Before we go all fanboy over the regional differences between cuisines of Thailand, we want to hear from you. Tell us your favorite foods to nosh on. And wherever you find yourself in this wide world, we'd love to hear what you think is the top notch cuisine of your neck of the global woods.

[Noel Brown]

And what spice level do you enjoy your Thai food at? Is it mild, medium hot, or Thai hot?

[Ben Bollen]

Right, right. Or falafel spicy, which is not spicy. It's mild. Falong means foreigner.

[Noel Brown]

You know who doesn't like spicy food?

[Ben Bollen]

Who?

[Noel Brown]

The Germans.

[Ben Bollen]

Oh.

[Noel Brown]

And me and Max. That's the condition. But also, yeah, it's. It's a palate thing. I've never been able to eat spicy food. I was at a. My friend's party, a birthday party a couple years ago, and I was eating some mild wings, and my friend Rob looks at me, goes, are you okay, Max?

[Ben Bollen]

I'm like, I want to eat anything with spice.

[Noel Brown]

And it just kills me. I'm like, my face is on fire.

[Ben Bollen]

You get the sweats, you get all blushy. And it's from, like, the weakest stuff possible, too.

[Noel Brown]

It's so pathetic.

[Tony Robbins]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Famously, German people are not acclimated to spicy foods.

[Ben Bollen]

Another reason for us to join Noel in his adventures over in Germany. Big, big thanks to our super producer, Mr. Max Mild Williams.

[Noel Brown]

Yes, indeed. Huge thanks to you, Ben, for this incredible research and also to Jonathan Strickland, the diabolical quizzter that he is.

[Ben Bollen]

Where do you think he is on spicy food?

[Noel Brown]

I think he doesn't he also have a condition.

[Ben Bollen]

He does. He is deathly allergic to shellfish.

[Noel Brown]

That's it. Don't know where he stands on spicy food. Can't really picture him doing a hot ones, though.

[Tony Robbins]

Though.

[Ben Bollen]

Let's just prank him. We'll text him after this episode. And let's put it in a work email and just not explain the context and ask him where he's at with spicy food.

[Noel Brown]

Absolutely.

[Ben Bollen]

And big thanks to our composer Alex Williams. Big thanks to Eve's Jeffcoat, Christopher Haciotes here in Spirit. And who else? Noel?

[Noel Brown]

Oh man, all the hits. Rachel Big Spinach, Lance the Rude Dudes over at Ridiculous Ridiculous Crime. Gosh, who else we got? Oh, aj, Bahamas, Jacobs the Puzzler. Love that guy.

[Ben Bollen]

And we love you folks. Thank you so much for tuning in. We've got a run of more fascinating sports episodes as well as a long awaited food episode. We're not gonna spoil just yet, but scatter, cover and scatter. Smother yourselves. Wow, that came out weird.

[Noel Brown]

If you know, you know. We'll see you next time folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Ben Bollen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Noel Brown]

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