The US Camel Corps, Part Two: The Legend of the Red Ghost

Summary

**Ridiculous History Podcast Episode Summary
Title: The US Camel Corps, Part Two: The Legend of the Red Ghost
Release Date: March 6, 2025
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts

---

Introduction and Recap

The episode opens with hosts Ben Born and Noel Brown welcoming returning guest Jonathan Strickland. They briefly banter and set the stage for Part Two of their exploration into the US Camel Corps—a 19th-century military experiment aimed at utilizing camels for transportation in the American deserts.

The US Camel Corps Experiment

Ben Born (00:00) introduces the topic by recapping Part One, where the United States faced logistical challenges in transporting supplies across vast, arid regions. Conventional pack animals like horses and mules struggled in the harsh desert environment, prompting military enthusiasts to propose the unconventional solution of importing camels.

Jonathan Strickland (03:05):
"They just have to accept reality and move forward sometimes is the only way you can get through life."
(05:25)

The initiative gained traction due to camels' superior adaptability to desert climates—they require less water and can traverse sandy terrains more efficiently than traditional pack animals. Major Wayne and David Dixon Porter were instrumental in retrofitting a ship to transport these dromedaries to the United States, successfully bringing 34 camels after accounting for births and deaths during the voyage.

Challenges and Issues Faced

Upon arrival, Major Wayne (08:17) stationed the camels at Camp Verde in Fort Wayne, Texas. The hosts humorously liken this segment to the second act of a heist movie, introducing both humor and the initial problems of integrating camels into military operations.

Ben Born (12:00):
"They might spit up on them. You know, I could see how they..."
(12:08)

The camels presented several challenges:

• Behavioral Issues: Camels were described as having "terrible attitudes," often spitting, biting, and kicking soldiers. Their unpredictable nature made them unsuitable for combat roles, leading to numerous frustrations among the troops.
• Logistical Problems: Unlike horses and mules, camels couldn't easily handle traditional military tasks like holding card games or working seamlessly with existing cavalry units (14:11).
• Training Difficulties: Attempts to train camels with harsh methods backfired, as these animals did not respond well to strict training, further exacerbating relations with the soldiers.

Noel Brown (15:45):
"Can you imagine being spit on, bitten, and then pooped and peed on?"
(16:04)

Despite their potential as pack animals, camels were deemed unsuitable for active warfare, leading to a reevaluation of their roles within the military.

Political Intrigue and the Mule Lobby

As the Civil War loomed, the Camel Corps faced political opposition. Ben Born (32:16) reveals a "corporopolitical conspiracy" orchestrated by the powerful mule lobby, an influential trade organization vested in promoting mules over camels to protect their economic interests.

Jonathan Strickland (32:49):
"We all know that asses carry a lot of power."
(32:55)

The mule lobby successfully undermined the Camel Corps initiative by lobbying against further camel imports, ensuring that mules and horses remained the primary pack animals in the military. This political maneuvering, combined with the onset of the Civil War, led to the decline of the Camel Corps.

The Civil War's Impact on the Camel Corps

With the outbreak of the Civil War in 1861, the Camel Corps' strategic value diminished. Camels stationed at Camp Verde were captured by Confederate forces early in the conflict, leading to the fragmentation of the corps.

Ben Born (34:00):
"The U.S. civil War started in 1861 in earnest, like you said, and it goes until 1865. It was a real bummer."
(34:11)

Both the Union and Confederate armies held fragmented camel units, which ultimately played negligible roles in the war. Post-war, the remaining camels were deemed obsolete, leading to their sale and dispersal across the country.

The Fate of the Camels

After the war, surplus camels were sold off. Many were abandoned, set free, or ended up in Nevada mining towns as pack animals. Unfortunately, a significant number were sold for meat or parts, contributing to the decline of camel populations in the United States.

Noel Brown (42:36):
"So a lot of those military camels were sold off. All of them."
(42:36)

The Legend of the Red Ghost

One of the most intriguing outcomes of the Camel Corps' demise is the emergence of the Red Ghost, an American cryptid rumored to haunt the Arizona Territory in the late 19th century. The Red Ghost was allegedly a giant camel-like creature, standing 30 feet tall, responsible for tragic encounters and mysterious disappearances.

Ben Born (44:38):
"It trampled a woman to death in 1883. It was rumored to stand 30ft tall."
(44:31)

Noel Brown (46:45):
"If you got one of those video games where you can create unique units of different stuff and make them fight each other, I cannot imagine the camel coming out on top."
(45:13)

While these tales are likely exaggerated, historical accounts suggest that some of the feral camels contributed to real incidents, blending fact with folklore. Marshall Trimble, the official state historian of Arizona, notes that while feral camels could survive longer in the desert, their numbers were insufficient to sustain a new camel civilization, leading to the gradual fading of the Red Ghost legend by the early 1900s.

Conclusion and Insights

The episode concludes by reflecting on the ambitious yet ultimately unsuccessful Camel Corps experiment. The blend of military innovation, political sabotage, and the harsh realities of the Civil War underscores the complexities of introducing non-native species into established systems. The legend of the Red Ghost serves as a fascinating example of how historical events can morph into folklore, blending truth with myth.

Ben Born (54:46):
"This tells us these sightings that were reported throughout the region up until the early 1900s were likely based in fact."
(54:27)

The hosts emphasize the importance of critical examination of historical anecdotes, recognizing the thin line between documented history and embellished storytelling.

---

Notable Quotes

• Noel Brown (05:22):
  "Imagine being halfway through a DIY car fix and realizing you're missing a part."

• Jonathan Strickland (12:08):
  "Camels were spitting on people. Side note, camels spit is nasty."
  (16:06)

• Ben Born (32:16):
  "There was a mule lobby, a powerful trade organization, that saw camels as an existential threat to their contracts."

• Jonathan Strickland (44:38):
  "A cowboy once tried to rope the Ghost. It turned and charged, nearly killing them both."

• Ben Born (54:46):
  "The legend might be embellished, but a wild camel, possibly an army camel, that escaped from Camp Verde was spotted."

---

Key Takeaways

• The US Camel Corps was an innovative but ultimately flawed attempt to adapt military logistics to desert environments.
• Behavioral and training challenges, coupled with political opposition from the mule lobby, led to the experiment's decline.
• The Civil War further marginalized the Camel Corps, resulting in the dispersal and sale of camels across the United States.
• The legend of the Red Ghost reflects how historical events can evolve into enduring folklore, blending reality with myth.

This episode of Ridiculous History offers a compelling narrative of ambition, challenges, and the unintended consequences of introducing non-native species into established systems. It underscores the importance of adaptability and the unpredictable nature of historical experiments.

Transcript

[Ben Born]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our super guest producer, the man, the myth legend, Mr. Matt the Madman Stillo.

[Noel Brown]

Oorah.

[Ben Born]

Oorah indeed. You are Noel Brown. I am Ben Born.

[Noel Brown]

Did I finally get the military exclamation right? Isn't it oorah?

[Ben Born]

It is oorah, but it's also hoorah depending upon which branch of the service you are.

[Noel Brown]

Semper fy, soldier. Semper Fi.

[Ben Born]

That would be Marines.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yes, that would be the Marines, yes.

[Ben Born]

Cool.

[Noel Brown]

Who's that handsome fellow?

[Ben Born]

Oh, okay.

[Noel Brown]

I am Ben Bullock, first and foremost.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, we stepped on that part. I am Ben Bullock. We are joined with a special guest, the returning Jonathan Strickland, who has functioned under a few monikers, a few aliases, a few Personas.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Curly Joe.

[Noel Brown]

He wants Curly Joe. In a previous life, he would transcribe police altercation reports. Apparently. We just heard some great tales off Mike.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Our old former coworker Candy May used to call me Jay. Thank you.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, I started Baby J.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Baby J. Josh and Chuck call me Strick.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, yeah, I called you Big Strick.

[Noel Brown]

Jonathan, you can have cookie, Strickland.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, I am Jonathan, you can't have Cookie. I'm gonna get you Strickland.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, and you may have been the cookie in that story because we didn't find out the full. The full extent of the anecdote.

[Jonathan Strickland]

That's okay though, because the listeners haven't even gotten part of the extent of the anecdote.

[Ben Born]

Exactly.

[Noel Brown]

Imagination, y'all.

[Ben Born]

It's just like Luber.

[Jonathan Strickland]

It is just like Looper.

[Ben Born]

And speaking of loops, we are on part two of a continuing exploration of the US Camel Corps. So a quick recap. Previously on Ridiculous History. We talked about a fascinating aspect of the United States which is, as it began to become the modern country we know it as today. They discovered there was a vast swath of desert and the European forces there had no idea how to address this. How do we move things to the west coast in a inhospitable land wherein pack animals like horses and mules will die? And people. And people. If you use people as pack animals, they're going to have a hard time too.

[Noel Brown]

At the very least, there's going to be some serious trudging going on, you know, sinking into the sand dunes.

[Jonathan Strickland]

So then we had some smarty pants people in the military saying, well, if we're going to need to get supplies across, which clearly we are. We need to rely upon something that is well suited for desert environments.

[Ben Born]

And, yeah, this was way before dune buggies.

[Noel Brown]

Way before Dune.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yes, exactly. Although Dune itself, who knows when that actually happened.

[Ben Born]

Yeah. Is a little loose with the time frame there.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Thousands of years, honestly.

[Ben Born]

And so. And so a couple of enthusiasts based on. Often on nostalgia, went to the powers that be in this emerging or emergent United States and they said, guys, anybody else into camels?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, yeah. And it took quite a bit of convincing. This was a conversation that takes place over decades with multiple people suggesting the possibility of bringing camels into the United States for the purposes of addressing supply chain issues. And it could have just been one of those things that was a flight of fancy and never went any further. But for the determination of a couple of people, one of whom had the money and the other of whom had the humpy dream.

[Ben Born]

The humpy dream.

[Noel Brown]

And our tale left off with Major Wayne and David Dixon Porter having retrofitted a ship called the supply Noah's Ark style, to ferry these dromedaries over to our lands.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Spitting bars. Spitting bars. Yeah. Bring over. They buy 33 Camels, they end up with 34.

[Ben Born]

And the math is difficult in terms.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Of one of the camels was smuggling another camel. No, it turned out one camel died on the way across. Six camels were born, but only two of those survived, leaving us with 34.

[Ben Born]

Which sounds like such a middle school math problem, right?

[Jonathan Strickland]

You are on one side of a river, you have 33 camels.

[Noel Brown]

Train involved.

[Ben Born]

What I always. What I always love about those, about those math problems, the word math problems in school, at least in the US is that there is an implied ridiculous scenario, Right? For some. There's nothing in the paragraph that tells you why. Johnny. A child has 48 apples.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Right?

[Ben Born]

What's going on with Johnny?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Right. But you just have to accept that reality and continue forward.

[Ben Born]

Yes. And why are these people racing on train?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Honestly, I think it's a really valuable lesson, like, eventually learned, that just accepting reality and moving forward sometimes is the only way you can get through life.

[Noel Brown]

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[Noel Brown]

So we've got 34 camels remaining and an additional weirdly and it turns out.

[Jonathan Strickland]

That the United States government at that point says success. Wow, you actually brought camels over and.

[Ben Born]

You got one more than you bought and under budget.

[Jonathan Strickland]

So why don't you go back and get more of those?

[Noel Brown]

Fetch us more camels please.

[Ben Born]

And so they ordered Porter to turn around immediately. He got his attaboy to sail back to the Middle east and to buy yet more camels. Six months later he has returned and he has 41 new camels. We made an interesting point in part one about how long it takes to travel across the Atlantic. During the previous months, while Porter and Wayne were on their fact finding mission, tensions in the United States were rising. So camels became increasingly important. That's why it's not surprising that they sent them back immediately. And again, months transpire on the ship on the new camel mission. During these six months. This is the official part two, folks. During the six months, our pal Major Wayne takes this first shipment of 34 camels out to Camp Verde and Fort Wayne, Texas. And he has. This is like the humorous Act 2 part in the great, you know, like the, the hero journey aspect or the, the. What's that Disney rule that we always talk about in improv, the Pixar rule for movies?

[Noel Brown]

Oh, gosh, I don't know about the Pixar rule.

[Ben Born]

Okay, we'll find out later.

[Noel Brown]

It does feel a bit like a second act of a heist movie that also introduces some slapstick elements.

[Ben Born]

Right, right. This is, this is part of the heist movie. This is really so hero's journey here you got a little humor, some levity after the tragic death of these juvenile camels. Major Wayne out in Texas, he's got his humans, he's got his animals. He has to figure out when. He has to figure out the following. Can we use these as transport? Which we always assumed then, and the military in Congress wants to know this. Can we use this in war? Bad news first. Campbells are terrible at war. Like they, they. With great affection. They're just, it's not their.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Well, for one thing, they, they, they can't hold the cards.

[Ben Born]

Right. Yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

They don't have thumbs either. Yeah, yeah.

[Jonathan Strickland]

So you play a camel at war, I mean, you're always gonna win, so I guess there's that.

[Noel Brown]

Jonathan, you're being silly.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I'm a little silly, though.

[Ben Born]

The card game war. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

No, go fish. On the other hand, they're excellent.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah.

[Ben Born]

They are good at poker because of their poker face. They look like they're always smirking.

[Jonathan Strickland]

That's true. But they, they also, they are very good for transport. Like that is. That is beyond question. They know for a fact they could use them for supply chains. But they do experiment with the concept of perhaps a camel cavalry, a camel free war camels. Yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

On tour with camel corps.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah.

[Ben Born]

Camel free. I'm just going to keep that portmanteau. Yeah. Because if you look back through ancient history, there are. There are several reports. I'm not going to say a lot, but there are several reports of camels being used in warfare and the being.

[Noel Brown]

Fitted with armor and stuff.

[Ben Born]

Or one of the common descriptions you would see in from some Greco Roman and North African historians would be the idea that you would have two people mounted on a camel. One guy Driving, essentially, and the other guy in the back shooting a bow and arrow in retreat or leaning forward and shooting that way.

[Noel Brown]

Very similar to the idea of like war rhinoceroses and war elephants we do know happen. But that was, was almost more of a flex than it was a functional maneuver.

[Ben Born]

I was a little more shock and awe. Now we do know that camels in the past could be used as a cavalry to drive a wedge and break a line of opposing forces. But all they were, at that point they were a V shaped agent of chaos.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. They might spit up on them. You know, I could see how they.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Could be useful in a psychological warfare way because if you see they're freaky looking, if you see a force approaching you on camelback, first of all, they're not going to be in a uniform kind of unit. You're just going to look and think, well, I have no idea what these mother flippers are going to be doing to us.

[Noel Brown]

These people are insane.

[Ben Born]

Right, exactly. It's like the guy who right before a bar fight breaks the bottle over his own head and it says, let's go. You know what I mean?

[Noel Brown]

Or like puts a cigarette out on his own tongue or something.

[Ben Born]

And then it's going to be like.

[Noel Brown]

Tuco from Breaking Bad.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yes, exactly like Tuco.

[Ben Born]

Or Looper. Also Looper. Yeah. Or my friend Darren from Chili's.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Chili's the restaurant or Chile the country?

[Ben Born]

Chili's the restaurant.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Gotcha.

[Ben Born]

Darren still works there. Did you know that?

[Jonathan Strickland]

I did not.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, I think it's a parole thing. Anyway, there's also this aspect that camels are surprisingly fast for the way they look. They can exceed 40 to 45 miles an hour.

[Noel Brown]

Once again, just a reminder for people who didn't listen to part one, in which case, shame on you, you're going to be completely lost. Please go back. And we are coming to you from Doha, Qatar, where camel racing is big.

[Ben Born]

Very much a thing in the gcc. Yeah. And we also, we know that camels weren't very good at warfare because once you get okay so you can run, you can cause chaos. Once you get into the fray, your faithful camel, no matter how much they love you, they're kind of gangly like we talked about in part one. They're not super nimble like an Arabian horse, for instance. And they're mounted so high that when you want, you know, Calvary wants the height advantage, but there's a Goldilocks zone. So if you're too high.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah. Like within sword reach with intentionally so.

[Ben Born]

Then can you imagine the, the bloody slapstick when some guy, the guy's trying to be camel cavalry for the first.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Time, leaning over too far, falling off the side.

[Ben Born]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

I love the move where the whole saddle flips upside down and then they're just mounted underneath the camel with their like camel balls hitting them in the face.

[Jonathan Strickland]

It turns out camels are not the bravest of. Of mounts.

[Noel Brown]

So I could see that.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Not.

[Noel Brown]

Sorry about the came comment guys. I didn't mean to put that image in there. Please carry on.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I was trying to move on. Really trying.

[Ben Born]

Really trying. It's a delicacy in some. Some place.

[Jonathan Strickland]

So I hear like the hump anyway. Yeah. So so not the bravest amounts. So also not very useful if you're going to ride into an active war zone and you know, they, they don't smell so nice. So soldiers were not very keen on spending a whole lot of time with them. They're fine with them carrying their stuff.

[Ben Born]

Right.

[Jonathan Strickland]

But not so riding on the back of a camel where they present a tempting target. They can't reach their opponent and the camel is like, I really don't want to be here.

[Ben Born]

And the horses also, and the mules, these are American horses and mules. They've never seen a camel. It smells different. They are not on board. So that's the thing. The soldiers. No, we don't want a camel blame here or be unfair to the soldiers or camel shame. Right. The soldiers here also said the camels had a terrible attitude. We mentioned it. Part one, Camels are sassy. They got sass. And the guys who were trying to train with these camels, they did not have the, you know, they didn't roll high on animal handling and D and D, these guys were not Steve Irwin.

[Noel Brown]

No herding cats more than it is like a training a, you know, a horse.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Take to it as well.

[Ben Born]

They were attempting to go heavy on the sticks rather than the carrots when they were trying to train camels. And camels didn't take that. Camels have the size advantage. Camels were spitting on people. Side note, camels spit is nasty.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Not as nasty as the other thing they would do.

[Ben Born]

Not as nasty as the other thing.

[Noel Brown]

They do which coming out of both ends.

[Ben Born]

The bite was super serious because don't let the smirk fool you. That bite comes quickly. And then they also would sometimes kick. I'm laughing because it's laughing. They would kick soldiers down to the ground and then they would, they would excrete urine or feces on them in a Very purposeful move for a me too.

[Noel Brown]

Poupon. Indeed. Yeah. Wow.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

That's awful. Yeah.

[Jonathan Strickland]

So then you have soldiers on the runs.

[Noel Brown]

Wouldn't you be furious if that happened to you? I would never trust a camel again.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I think once I got over the horror, being horrified.

[Noel Brown]

Can you imagine being spit on, bitten, and then pooped and peed on?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Well, not for less than 50 bucks.

[Ben Born]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, what's the discount? And so there's an app for it. So as far as the cavalry goes, the military quickly realizes, all right, cavalry, that's going to be horses. But they did have good news. The. They had some great news, actually. Camels were fantastic pack animals. They could carry way more. They didn't need. They needed near as much actual tlc.

[Noel Brown]

They're good at walking in a line, you know, when you point them in a direction. Isn't it funny, though? And so, like, the government to, like, mission creep their way from, like, the whole idea was, these are going to be transport. Why don't we try them out in.

[Ben Born]

Well, we see. Let's just see if they can fight.

[Noel Brown]

More bang for the buck.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I honestly think most of human history is someone looking at an animal and first asking, I wonder if I can eat it? And then thinking, I wonder if I could ride on it.

[Ben Born]

Well, that's probably what they did with Neanderthals as well, you know?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah.

[Ben Born]

But also, I thought you were going to say something I very much agree with with the whole story of human history is mission creep.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Born]

You know, one guy's like, what if I come down from the tree? You know what I mean? And now we have Velcro and someone went to the moon.

[Jonathan Strickland]

What if you did publish another episode per week?

[Ben Born]

So. Yeah, exactly. And this is. Okay, so this is. This is crazy, because this is an emotional rollercoaster for Wayne.

[Noel Brown]

It is for us, too.

[Ben Born]

Yeah. He. He is finally getting good news. Shout out to our producers here, Matt and Max. We get, like, a good news sound cue. Back in the high life again. Can we get the rights to that?

[Noel Brown]

I feel good.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Maybe the Warren Zevin version, which I think is superior to the original.

[Noel Brown]

His hair looked purple.

[Ben Born]

So. Okay, so they have that moment. And these guys, the camels, I mean, have a much higher tolerance for heat. They actually need less water and food.

[Noel Brown]

And again, we did bust the myth. And the hump of the hump being, you know, filled with water, I think I kind of wonder. People are like, you know, are camels like animal versions of cacti? Because we know Cacti do retain a lot of water, but the camels, it's more that they have these fat reserves, and they are able to store a lot of caloric energy. Energy material, but not like water.

[Ben Born]

And this, they also. This is a point I don't know about, you guys. I didn't think about this. Camels did not. Unlike horses and mules, you don't have to shoe a camel. You don't have to put horseshoes or mule shoes on them. They already have the clown feet that have evolved to go through the harsh cliche.

[Noel Brown]

Well, exactly. You say clown shoes because they do have a lot of surface area, which is very important, so they don't sink into the dunes. Because a hors. It's a much kind of pointier hoof.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Right.

[Noel Brown]

And the camel hoof is much broader.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

And it creates surface area like a padding almost, so that it. Yeah.

[Jonathan Strickland]

So in our first episode, we talked about how there have been multiple studies trying to justify the. The great effort it would take in order to transport camels in the 19th century over to the United States. Now we actually have a situation where the camels have been active in the United States. So what's the result?

[Ben Born]

Defcon C. We have active camel. We have camel.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Active camel. Camel is out on field.

[Noel Brown]

The camel hath hit the fan.

[Ben Born]

Right. So are we gonna do something worthwhile with this, or are we like the Gary Larson cartoon of the dog who finally catches the car?

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[Noel Brown]

Especially when things are guaranteed to fit.

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[Ben Born]

This is a reference that does not occur to Major Wayne because Gary Larson and the Far side are not a thing yet. He's super excited and he writes, you know everybody do. Check out part one. He's one of the guys who made a study. Study. It was a. It was Kind of a fan mail letter based in fact, a little bit.

[Noel Brown]

Of fan fiction, you know, woven in there.

[Ben Born]

Got a little erotic.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I was supposed to say a little slash fiction.

[Ben Born]

Little shipping.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, shipping of the desert.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Let's. Let's not put in too much misinformation in this episode, okay, guys?

[Ben Born]

All right. Okay.

[Noel Brown]

But it is true that Major Wayne is excited. In October of 1856, he wrote that the usefulness of the camels in the interior of the country is no long question here in Texas among those who have seen them at work or examined them with attention.

[Jonathan Strickland]

It's the only way you can examine them. They demand it.

[Noel Brown]

They do.

[Ben Born]

Oh, yeah. Okay, good.

[Noel Brown]

Very sassy.

[Ben Born]

Somebody wrote to me earlier and they said, you know, I love you guys show, but I feel like sometimes Jonathan is dismissive of camels. And I said, no. He examines them with attention.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I do. I do.

[Noel Brown]

He's a member of the camel lover Society, both the animal and the hard carrying.

[Ben Born]

So this idea is picking up steam. Right. If we go to the National Park Service, we'll see that they describe how this became slowly of interest to civilians as well. We see a lot of technology come from military applications and then later go to early adopters in the world or the civil world. Not the war, the civil world. Right.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Civilians.

[Noel Brown]

In other words, polite society.

[Ben Born]

Yes.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Well, we're still talking gold rush. Not that polite.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, fair.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, yeah. So it's after the gold rush, citizens of the US Are starting to say, hey, we need you to build a road west. And a few very clever guys are clocking these existence of this thing called the camel. And so in 1857, A. I'll say it, legendarily bad President overall, named James Buchanan. I almost said President James Buchanan again, as though his first name was President. Do you think anybody. There's some. There are billions of people. Someone has the real first name. President.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, has to be just like Major.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Major. Major. Major.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, yeah. Shout out to Heller. Right?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, yeah. Good old catch 22.

[Ben Born]

So, all right, this guy, President James Buchana, a guy named Edward Beale, to build a road from Fort Smith, Arkansas to California. It's a long road.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yes.

[Noel Brown]

Yep. And he's already got a good reputation for his involvement in the Mexican American War, as well as being the person who brought the very first golden nugget from California all the way to Washington.

[Ben Born]

Dc Actual nugget, not the casino, but.

[Jonathan Strickland]

He had a whole song about it. I got a golden nugget.

[Noel Brown]

It's the one where you bite on it.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Make sure it's.

[Jonathan Strickland]

There's a little ting noise that makes. Yeah.

[Ben Born]

Oh. Because gold is quite ductile.

[Noel Brown]

Indeed.

[Ben Born]

That's my one fact I know about gold.

[Noel Brown]

That means you can pull it into like wire. More or less. Yeah.

[Ben Born]

Right.

[Noel Brown]

So.

[Jonathan Strickland]

So wait a minute. Okay, let me, let me ask you this question then. All right, so we've, we've had this whole effort to bring the camels over. We've had success in the application of using camels to move supplies around. We've got the interest of civilians making use of camels. So where the heck do camels then, guys? I mean, we brought horses over to North America in the 16th century. They flourished.

[Noel Brown]

Are they about to abandon the camels, guys?

[Jonathan Strickland]

That's what I'm asking.

[Ben Born]

Oh, well.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Well, I hear it's really hard to give up camels.

[Noel Brown]

I know. It's hard to quit those camels.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, you gotta have like a camel patch.

[Ben Born]

Yes, yes. Or camel gum.

[Noel Brown]

Stop it.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, Cameltine, they call it. Yeah, that's a great question, Jonathan, because for a while it seemed like camels were going to be horse 2.0, to put it in corporate parlance. Camels arrive in Los Angeles. It's December 1857. People are still very into this westward expansion.

[Noel Brown]

Camels are coming, they say.

[Ben Born]

Yes, they really do say the camels are coming. And they're like celebrities kind of people are gathering to witness the arrival of the camel.

[Noel Brown]

Like the Beatles. Like the British Invasion.

[Ben Born]

Yes. Yeah. And they could go over deep mountains and gullies. This speaks directly to the expansionist pioneer spirit of American society at the time. And this is where we get the first real kind of US Camel Corps in 1859, the group that is going to Los Angeles. They pass by essentially. Let's see. Okay, I'm going to curse because it's appropriate here. They pass by a big ass rock.

[Noel Brown]

I think gas isn't. It's not fully a curse anymore. Okay.

[Ben Born]

They pass by a rock that is large enough to have its own name.

[Noel Brown]

There you go.

[Ben Born]

And the rock's name is El Moro.

[Noel Brown]

So El Morro. Oh, and that means the Morrow.

[Ben Born]

Yes.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Born]

And they're. They're passing. Excuse me. They're passing by on the. For the second time. First they pass the rock and they're like, it's a big rock. And then some guy comes out and goes, that's El Moro. And they go, all right. They get to la, they go back.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Okay, I'm glad that you're. They're going back because I wasn't sure if they just, like, went in a big circle and like, hey, I know we've been by here. There's no way there's two rocks that big.

[Ben Born]

And that guy comes back that's also El Morro.

[Noel Brown]

We do get to introduce a few side players that hung out with our buddy Edward Beale. And this dude's name here, I just love. I gotta say it. P. Gilmer, Breckenridge.

[Ben Born]

Yeah. Nailed it. Who else we got?

[Noel Brown]

We got E. Penn Long and F. Angle Jr.

[Jonathan Strickland]

These are all great names.

[Ben Born]

These are great names.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I mean, those names are so great, you want to have them preserved for posterity. If only there were a giant roc.

[Ben Born]

If only there were some giant rock. The reason we know their names right now and not their full first names, the reason we can't tell you their full first names is because that's what they wrote on the rock. That's what they wrote on El Moro.

[Noel Brown]

We're here.

[Ben Born]

Yeah. Yeah. And I love the point you're making, Jonathan, where they possibly lost and just saying. Okay, okay. If we run into this rock again.

[Jonathan Strickland]

If our names are on it, we know we've been here before, and perhaps.

[Noel Brown]

We can use this as a rallying point to restart civilization in the event of apocalypse.

[Ben Born]

Yes. Interestingly enough, they did not write the names of the camels.

[Noel Brown]

We don't even. It lost to history the names of the camels.

[Ben Born]

I'm sure they had one people always named Leroy and Clyde.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Simon, Theodore, Alvin.

[Ben Born]

There was probably, you know, because camels have such sleepy dopey. I bet they had. There were some that were, like, spitty.

[Noel Brown]

Huh?

[Ben Born]

Yeah, there was some, like, Danger Horse. There's one who's just Old Cairo. You know what I mean? And then there's poops, Mr. Humpty Hump.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yep, yep.

[Ben Born]

And I hope there's one with just a human name. There's one that's just named Richard.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Or Steven.

[Ben Born]

So this gets us to the question. The experiments paying off camels might become an integral part of the US army, or at least supply chains.

[Noel Brown]

They're doing a big PR push, it would seem.

[Ben Born]

Yes.

[Jonathan Strickland]

And we're still, like, we're inching toward the massive war that would break out within the United States. The Civil War, which is a terrible.

[Noel Brown]

Name between the United States and the United States.

[Ben Born]

And it was very. Not civil.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, it was very much not a civil war. But one of the big players in that war is our next little data point.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's how he would want to.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Be referred to as a Data point.

[Ben Born]

A little data point, Yes.

[Noel Brown]

A foot.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Well, I don't want to, you know, stir things up again.

[Ben Born]

The barely know, incredibly obscure Lieutenant Colonel Robert E. Lee. In 1860, he used camels on a long range patrol. And he gave these great reviews. He was like, camels are awesome. This is great. You know, five stars. I wish I could give six.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah. He did it on Yelp. But back then you would just.

[Ben Born]

Yelp would recommend. Yeah. Yes. And for some reason his rave review did not get a lot of traction because he was Robert E. Lee.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah.

[Ben Born]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Strickland]

It turns out that the people in charge, at least of the United States treasury, weren't too interested in what he had to say.

[Ben Born]

And I did not know this until beginning research and writing on this episode. Kid you not. There was a political or a corporo. Political. Corporopolitical, a word made up, brought to you by ridiculous history. There was was a genuine political conspiracy against the use of camels by a mule lobby, a powerful trade organization. The mule lobby swooped in, owned and sold mules. They came in as smoky back room.

[Jonathan Strickland]

We all know that asses carry a lot of power.

[Ben Born]

They were some powerful asses there. They got wind of this experiment.

[Noel Brown]

That's where the cuts from camel asses.

[Ben Born]

A little bit later. So we were able to get that shipment, those two shipments of camels. And by this time, camels are reproducing a bit in the US but the mule lobby shuts down the proposition.

[Noel Brown]

We're going to put a stop to this camel nonsense.

[Ben Born]

Yeah. To them, this is not a Hee Haw situation. It's quite an existential threat to their own existing government contracts for mules. Right. With the U.S. army. Yeah.

[Jonathan Strickland]

It turns out that lobbies are not a new thing. They're not recent. They have been very much a part of the great American experiment since the beginning.

[Noel Brown]

And they know how to get their way. And then the war between the States does kick off in earnest in 1861. And very early on, all of these camels, as we mentioned, were housed at this one camp, Camp Verde. And it was very quickly captured. Yes.

[Ben Born]

By the Confederates. And they. The U.S. civil War started in 1861 in earnest, like you said. And it goes until 1865. It was a real bummer.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah. No. Not a lot of jokes to make about the Civil War that aren't in incredibly poor taste.

[Noel Brown]

Now, Robert E. Lee must have been stoked about capturing Camp Verde because now he had all these camels to play with.

[Ben Born]

Yes.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Which would end up being like almost a non factor because Almost all the actual battles would take place far to.

[Ben Born]

The east and not in the desert. The Union had possession of their own camel force. So you could argue for a brief, brief time amid all this chaos, there were two camel corps.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah. There could have been camel on camel violence.

[Ben Born]

And CoC is a real and present danger.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, we don't want to make light of that.

[Ben Born]

We don't at all. We want you to know if you are a camel involved in COC violence, there are resources available. Check your local dune. So the Union had these camels from California, but just like the Confederates, nobody was sure what to do with these guys. So they transferred the groups of camels just back and forth to different places. You know what I mean? Like, here you are, Major Brown. Your camels. Oh, Lieutenant Colonel Strickland, take these camels. Yeah.

[Jonathan Strickland]

We don't know what you should do with them, but we just know that we have no use for them at the moment.

[Ben Born]

So they, instead of passing the buck, they kept passing the camels like a cigarette in a circle.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Which makes sense. Passing camels.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jonathan Strickland]

And cigarettes. Yeah. Sure, makes sense.

[Ben Born]

Yeah. I'm killing it with comparisons today.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah. No, but the issue here is that while you could just think of the camels as being kind of superfluous, what they actually represented, if you want to get really cynical with it, is an expense. Right. Like, this is something that you still have to spend money on. Yeah. You got to keep them alive, you know, even if you're just transporting them from one place to another. Like, you're paying not just for the camels, but for all the people involved in that, too. And you eventually get people who are, you know, all those penny pinchers who are saying, why are we spending money on something that's not actually contributing to the efforts that are necessary for us to fight this war?

[Ben Born]

And everybody obviously knows who we're referring to. Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton. I'm sure we have all heard of.

[Jonathan Strickland]

The villain of the piece, Sheep bean.

[Noel Brown]

Counter of the Civil War. He was unaware of the camel experiments. He simply saw them as a waste of money.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah.

[Ben Born]

And he was cowboying in. And, you know, rightly with validity, he was saying, we need to save some cash here. So the camels, by the end of the war, 1865, the camels in California are sold the REM for parts. For parts for. For clown feet, long necks, and smurfs.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I mean, honestly, I don't really want to think about what people did with those camels.

[Noel Brown]

Well, I don't think it was A concern on the part of the seller.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Not at all.

[Ben Born]

Yeah. There wasn't a check in. It wasn't like getting a pet, making.

[Noel Brown]

Sure they're getting a good home.

[Ben Born]

Right. And I'm sorry, you don't want to think about it because you are going to learn about. So we know that the camels, like when the Confederacy fell. Right. And capitulated.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Spoiler alert.

[Ben Born]

Yes. Titanic sinks. Abraham Lincoln has a bad time at the play. The Confederates lost.

[Jonathan Strickland]

But Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln.

[Ben Born]

Brought to you by the Ford Theater. So look, the remaining camels that are part of the spoils of war when the Confederacy falls, they're sold in 1866. And, you know, again, we made the point. It's because this was a mule and horse centric conflict. Camels are very well adapted, but they're very specifically adapted to the desert. So you don't. If you have a railroad, if you have horses and you have mules and you're in the forest and you actually.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Have roads now, and you have roads.

[Ben Born]

Then you don't need the camel. And even if you didn't need the camel, things may have worked out differently. They would have had there not been a Civil War corps or had the major supporters of the camel corps been Union, because pretty much all of the major supporters we named.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Born]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Hey, everybody.

[Jonathan Strickland]

So when you get asked, what is.

[Noel Brown]

Odoo, what comes to mind? Well, I'll tell you. Odoo is a bit of everything. Odoo is a suite of business management software that some people say is like fertilizer because of the way it promotes growth. But, you know, some people also say that Odoo is like a magic beanstalk because it grows with your company and is also magically affordable.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Ooh. But then again, you could look at Odoo in terms of how its individual software programs are a lot like building blocks. Whatever your business needs. Manufacturing, accounting, HR programs, you can build a custom software suite that's perfect for your company. So what is odd? Well, Odoo is a bit of everything. Odoo is a fertilizer. Magic beanstalk. Building blocks for business.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, that's it. Which means that Odoo is exactly what every business needs. Learn more and sign up [e-mail] that's O D O-O dot com.

[Ashley Echenetti]

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[Ben Born]

Picture this. You're in the garage, hands covered in grease, just finished tuning up your engine with a part you found on ebay and you realize, you know what? I could also use new brakes.

[Noel Brown]

So where do you go next? Back to ebay.

[Ben Born]

You can find anything there. It's unreal.

[Noel Brown]

Wipers, headlights, even cold air intakes. It's all there.

[Ben Born]

And you've got ebay Guaranteed fit.

[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Born]

Look, DIY fixes can be major. Doesn't matter if it's just maintenance or a major model, you got it.

[Noel Brown]

Especially when things are guaranteed to fit.

[Ben Born]

So when you dive into your next car project, start with ebay all the.

[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Born]

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[Noel Brown]

So a lot of those military camels were sold off. All of them. As you mentioned, most of them ended up abandoned by their new owners and or set free. We'll call that charitably. Many did get put to use as pack animals in some of these Nevada mining towns. Very sadly, a lot of the remaining ones that weren't so lucky were sold to meat markets and butchers, you know, to be consumed and again, sold for parts.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Born]

This is the part I'm really excited about. Not just.

[Noel Brown]

No, no, no. The myth part.

[Ben Born]

Yes.

[Noel Brown]

There's a really, really cool legend that we're about to get into that was likely direct result of these freed camels. This really is. This is a crossover.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I've always wanted to say that.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, put your own spin on it. Jonathan and I respect that. What are we talking about, guys?

[Ben Born]

So we are talking about. This is the coolest chapter of this story. One that we can't wait to end on. The influence of Farrell. Because not all of them, not all of them ended up in Nevada mines. Not all of them ended up being hopefully very well loved pets. Not all of them ended up being butchered. Some went feral, just like horses of yesteryear. Some got away. And this may have led to the creation of a thoroughly haunting American cryptid, the Tale of the Red Ghost. We have to go to the Smithsonian. They set it up pretty well.

[Noel Brown]

We love the Smithsonian. Chris Heller writes in the 1880s. We've done work with the Smithsonian too, by the way. We got to get them back on and do another crossover. Check out Smithsonian Podcast.

[Ben Born]

Check out the side Door podcast.

[Noel Brown]

Indeed. Chris Heller writes. In the 1880s, a wild menace haunted the Arizona Territory. It was known as the Red Ghost and its legend grew as it roamed the high country.

[Ben Born]

It trampled a woman to death in 1883. It was rumored to stand 30ft tall.

[Jonathan Strickland]

A cowboy once tried to rope the Ghost. But it turned and charged his mount, nearly killing them both.

[Noel Brown]

Rope a ghost.

[Jonathan Strickland]

One man chased it, then cleaned it, disappeared right before his eyes. Another swore it devoured a grizzly bear.

[Ben Born]

All right, wow. So camels are tall, but not 30ft tall.

[Noel Brown]

Also, I imagine stuff of legend, though, Right. I was about to say, I imagine.

[Jonathan Strickland]

If you got one of those video games where you can create unique units of different stuff and make them fight each other. If I made a camel versus a grizzly bear, I cannot imagine the camel coming out on top.

[Ben Born]

No. Maybe if it took place late in the game in the desert, and the grizzly had been in the desert, was really a.

[Noel Brown]

It's sort of like a smaller dude tiring out a much larger boxer.

[Ben Born]

Right. I would still. If it comes down to it, though, I would regretfully have to vote for even a starving bear over. Especially a starving bear over a cow.

[Noel Brown]

But these types of details we see all the time in reports of cryptids that we cover often on our other podcast, stuff they don't want you to know that are often these exaggerated tales that get repeated and sort of twisted. And everybody wants to tell a cool story and everyone wants to put their own spin on, especially if they haven't seen the thing with their very eyes.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah. And the stories just get more and more outlandish.

[Ben Born]

Right. You see this throughout history. The legend of the unicorn is some sort of horned antelope seen from the side. And if you see.

[Jonathan Strickland]

And mermaids are manatees. It was wild.

[Ben Born]

Long time on the ocean for those guys, is all I could think of. And yeah, this becomes a part of folklore. But we are convinced, I think it's fair to say that there's a grain of truth to this, because a group of you would have multiple sightings. And despite embellishment and secondhand reporting, the firsthand reporting does have. Have a lot of commonalities.

[Noel Brown]

It lines up with Fort Verde first and foremost, which was the location where these animals were held. And likely many of them may have been released from there in the first place.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Or escaped.

[Ben Born]

Right, Right. Maybe somebody tried because again, camels are fast. Maybe someone tried to ride away on a camel. Maybe they got shot in the chaos and the camel kept going. So one attack is described by a group of miners along the Verde River. They say they saw the red ghost. They fired at it, something shook loose and landed on the ground. When they approached the spot where it fell, they saw the skull of a recently deceased person. Skin and hair still stuck to the bone. That's our dead rider. Theory. The Red Ghost is a ginormous thing that seems to have death riding upon it, which I'm thinking could quite possibly podcast level. True campfire story here. It could possibly be someone who tried to escape and then died.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Right. I have to say that at the end of my life, if I see the Grim Reaper astride a camel, I'm going to be greatly disappointed.

[Ben Born]

I'm probably also delighted take any of it seriously. Yeah.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Be like, well, now I know that the most ridiculous is yet ahead for me.

[Ben Born]

That's a positive attitude. And then you know what else we could say like, hey, Grim Reaper, thanks for checking out our show, man.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Also not grim.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, you're. You're kind of zany, actually. Good.

[Noel Brown]

Good to have him in our corner, man.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I had some zany reaper once.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, wow. Is that a type of hot pepper?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yes. Yeah, let's say it's a hot pepper.

[Ben Born]

Fair enough.

[Noel Brown]

So a few years later, we got a rancher near Eagle Creek who spotted a feral red haired camel getting into his tomato patch. Old Farmer McGregor.

[Ben Born]

Yeah. And this guy was a much better shot than those miners because when he shot the animal, he managed to bring it down. It was verified that he had shot a camel. The Red Ghost reign of terror had concluded and news spread back east. The New York sun, you could see this in various archives. They published a report about the demise. And Jonathan, a long time ago, you and I collaborated on a story that went viral for Brainstuff about the transatlantic accent. So could you give us.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Oh my God.

[Ben Born]

Could you give us this quote? I think transatlantic is appropriate for this.

[Jonathan Strickland]

When the rancher went out to examine the dead beast, he found strips of rawhide wound and twisted all over his back, his shoulders and even under his tail.

[Noel Brown]

This supports the dead rider theory.

[Ben Born]

Someone or something had been lashed onto this camel. No. Obviously reporting at this time was not what we would call fact based. So it's possible this was to the earlier point made. Noel's possible is wildly embellished to sell papers, yellow journalism. But the question remains, could the Red Ghost have been a real animal? I'm going to say yes, but I'm not.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Probably not 30ft tall.

[Ben Born]

Probably not 30ft tall. I am not also the official state historian of Arizona in 2015. What?

[Noel Brown]

That's unfortunate. You were robbed.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Let me just say, when I was reviewing Mr. Bowen's resume, it said otherwise.

[Noel Brown]

Okay.

[Ben Born]

It said no. It just had the word otherwise.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, that's exactly. That's all it said was otherwise. It was like kind of. Well, you're hired he's.

[Ben Born]

This guy's got camel balls for sure.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Which is what we call moxie.

[Ben Born]

That's what they call it. If we are talking about the official state historian of Arizona, we're talking about a guy named Marshall Trimble.

[Noel Brown]

Marshall Trimble, the official state historian of Arizona as of 2015. He went through a lot of the clippings reports on this from the late 1800s to figure out what the actual truth was. Feral camels certainly could survive in the desert for some time, although there almost certainly weren't enough of them living in the wild to create a kind of new camel civilization.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Right. It couldn't be enough to have a sustainable population of camels.

[Noel Brown]

Correct.

[Jonathan Strickland]

There was too few of them and possibly spread far, too far apart. So that would just mean we would have very slow and sad story of camels living out their natural lifespans in decline. In decline. Right. The population eventually diminishing to nothing.

[Ben Born]

The word for that is the last. This wouldn't quite apply, but there is a word for the last living example of a species. It's really sad that, that the final camel, Derek, it's called, it's from Chili's. It's called an endless. Isn't that heartbreaking?

[Jonathan Strickland]

So sad.

[Noel Brown]

Quick question, guys. We know that camels can survive, you know, unchecked in the desert for long periods of time. But what, what do they enjoy eating, you know, when after a certain point they can no longer survive off of those fat reserves alone?

[Ben Born]

Right.

[Noel Brown]

They need to have some sort of natural resource.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Deserts aren't completely devoid of plant life. They're just sparse and far apart.

[Noel Brown]

So they would eat greens of some.

[Ben Born]

Kind, Herbivorous for sure.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Or grizzly bears occasionally. They're legends.

[Ben Born]

They eat a lot of stuff that would be maybe too dry or salty for other animals. So really for them it's being around a source of water that they can just house. You know what I mean? But they do eat cacti, twigs, leaves, stems. They will also eat, eat, I don't know, pretty much any part of a plant. You know, how plants have evolved to fight off, fight off large animals and certain birds and other things that would eat plants. Camels d g a f about those protections. Camels would probably eat some hot peppers. I don't know. You know what? I bet for a good treat for your camel, I bet there are some fruits that they would really love like.

[Noel Brown]

Dates or a nice carrot. And they are savvy about making sure to consume poisonous greens. Poisonous plants, yes.

[Ben Born]

And you. And as we're seeing now we're doing this live. They are. They are some pretty hardcore herbivores. There's some pretty hardcore ruminants. They can eat a lot of stuff, actually. It looks like the salt is good for them. Oh, to have the dietary abilities of a camel, you guys.

[Noel Brown]

Indeed.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah. I'm on an anti camel diet. I'm on low sodium, so.

[Ben Born]

You're on low sodium. Yeah. Okay, that's true.

[Jonathan Strickland]

That's not even a joke.

[Noel Brown]

You had to give up the old salt lick.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I was out there like six, seven hours a day and they said, you're not being a productive member of society.

[Ben Born]

This guy used to just always. I remember he was in your contract. The salt lick breaks.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Born]

Your agent explained to me that's like a smoke break for other people.

[Jonathan Strickland]

It was in my rider.

[Ben Born]

It was in your rider. Your camel rider.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yep.

[Ben Born]

All right, there we have it. So this is. This tells us, According to. To Marshall Trimble, this tells us these sightings that were reported throughout the region up until the early 1900s were likely based in fact. And so the legend of the Red Ghost, like you said, Noel, it fits perfectly with some of our timelines. It also fits perfectly with some of our geography. The legend might be embellished, but a wild camel, possibly an army camel, that escaped from Camp Verde was spotted. Someone did kill it. They found that it had scars across its back and body. It had those straps. We know that we owe a lot of this to a lot of the research to guys like Doug Baum, who was a zookeeper and owner of.

[Noel Brown]

Not to be confused with our Doug Baum, who runs our LA podcast studio. Spelled differently.

[Ben Born]

Well, we haven't asked him.

[Noel Brown]

That's true.

[Ben Born]

We should ask him. Doug, where were you in the late to mid-1800s?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Well, I was keeping a zoo in Texas. Oh, my God. We talked about you on a recent show.

[Noel Brown]

So what did Camel Doug have to say?

[Ben Born]

So zookeeper Doug, owner of the Texas Camel Corps, he hunted down, just on his own steam, his own volition, the truth of the Red Ghost, as well as the fate of all those other former military camels. And we know that a lot of them went through Mobile, Galveston, San Francisco. And Baum gives us this note. He says, these commercially imported camels start to mix with the formerly army camels in the 1870s. This is what he's mad about, by the way. This is what Doug is, what really gets Doug's hump here. He says they interbred with the former military camels. So unfortunately, it's really murky where the military camels end up and what their ultimate dispositions or you know, their endings were because of these nebulous traveling menageries and circuses. So he is like wait, like literal circuses?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, no, literally.

[Noel Brown]

So some of these were taken. Taken on by, you know, traveling circus.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Sideshows famous for how well they kept their animals.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, in these.

[Ben Born]

I mean Barnum and Bailey, even in.

[Noel Brown]

The modern day, you know, there have been changes and more oversight. But back in the early days, zero oversight and horrific conditions for these animals.

[Ben Born]

I propose, gentlemen, we end with a nice not even callback. A bookend with our friends here. We'll see who the friends are. Get this. We know what happened to at least one camel. A white haired camel named Sayed. He was.

[Noel Brown]

We got a name.

[Ben Born]

Yeah. We got what? Because he was Beal's prized riding camel. When they were expediting out west, Sayed was killed by a younger, larger camel in his herd.

[Noel Brown]

Camel on camel violence.

[Ben Born]

CoC and CoCV. And a soldier who is also a veterinarian. He said, look, Beal, Mr. Beal, I know this, I know said meant a lot to you. So we're gonna ship him across the country to Washington. His body is preserved by the Smithsonian and the bones of Said are still in the collection of the National Museum of Natural History to this very day.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Right next to Mr. Lincoln.

[Ben Born]

Yeah, yeah. It's a weird aisle in the museum there.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, it's just Misk is the title.

[Ben Born]

Yes, yes, it's Misk. Because budget cuts didn't give us enough room to write, you know, spell.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I mean that's a big signs. That's a big sign.

[Ben Born]

It's a big. It's a big sign and it's on whiteboard, which is just remarkable. Wow. So the, the.

[Jonathan Strickland]

The terrible joke one upmanship has been amazing for this.

[Ben Born]

Our collective parents would.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Dad would be proud. Honestly.

[Ben Born]

You think so?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Oh yeah. My dad. Yeah. He would be like, way to go, son.

[Noel Brown]

Mine would be utterly ashamed.

[Jonathan Strickland]

All right, well, once again I let down Noel's dad.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Happens he was a tough night.

[Ben Born]

And a Fantastic Four villain that may be coming to a theater near you. No spoilers. Big, big thanks. Of course, as I was saying to you fellow ridiculous historians for tuning in, huge thanks to Matt the Madman. Stillo. Matt. How'd we do?

[Noel Brown]

Hoorah.

[Ben Born]

There we go. There we go. And of course we can't thank you enough, Jonathan Strickland. This will probably be the most polite thank you we have given you in the credits because you are here and making eye contact in human form.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, yeah, and I didn't turn into my evil alter ego.

[Noel Brown]

It was on the table. But we ended up running a little long and we're a little pressed for time here today at this tech conference. But huge thanks to Christopher Osiodis and Eve Jeffcoat here in spirit, Alex Williams, who composed our theme. Max Williams, super producer. Max, thank you for the edit and all the crazy sound cues and for just being a mensch.

[Ben Born]

And big, big thanks of course, to the rude dudes over at Ridiculous Crime, our crew of research associates on this show. Big thanks to okay, yep, there they go. Didn't want to be shouted out in the credits. We are working live. We'll be back next week. We're going to talk about ancient civilizations.

[Noel Brown]

Ancient.

[Ben Born]

You have to wonder what that means.

[Noel Brown]

We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Ben Born]

Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days?

[Jonathan Strickland]

Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? Accept it. If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past.

[Ben Born]

Discover is accepted at 99 of places.

[Jonathan Strickland]

That take credit cards nationwide and every.

[Ben Born]

Time you make a purchase with your.

[Jonathan Strickland]

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[Ben Born]

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[Jonathan Strickland]

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[Ben Born]

Offer ends April 1st. Go to CheapCaribbean.com to start saving.

[Jonathan Strickland]

The Unshakeables podcast is kicking off season two with an episode you won't miss. Want to miss? Join host Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business, as he welcomes a very special guest, Chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. Hear about the challenges facing small businesses and some of the oh moments Jamie has overcome. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. J.P. morgan Chase bank and Member FDIC Copyright 2025 J.P. morgan Chase & Co.

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