The World of Non-Gregorian Calendars: What Day Is It, Really?

Summary

Ridiculous History: The World of Non-Gregorian Calendars – What Day Is It, Really?

In this captivating episode of Ridiculous History, hosts Ben Bolan and Noel Brown explore the intriguing landscape of non-Gregorian calendars. While the Gregorian calendar reigns supreme in global coordination, numerous cultures and religions persist in using their own unique calendrical systems. This episode delves into the history, structure, and significance of several alternative calendars, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of how different societies measure and perceive time.

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1. Introduction to Non-Gregorian Calendars

Ben Bolan sets the stage by highlighting the dominance of the Gregorian calendar while acknowledging the existence of other calendars still in use worldwide.

Ben Bolan (01:42): “The Gregorian calendar, despite being the de facto world calendar, is far from the only calendar still in use.”

He emphasizes that various reasons, including religious beliefs and cultural traditions, sustain the use of these alternative systems.

---

2. The Hebrew Calendar

The discussion begins with the Hebrew calendar, a lunar calendar deeply rooted in Jewish tradition.

• Dual Usage: In countries like Israel, both the Gregorian and Hebrew calendars are employed. Secular activities rely on the Gregorian system, while religious events adhere to the Hebrew calendar.

  Noel Brown (05:02): “The Hebrew calendar, a lunar calendar used alongside the Gregorian for secular purposes in places like Israel.”

• Structure and Adjustments: The Hebrew calendar originally consisted of ten months of 30 days each. Post the Babylonian exile, it expanded to twelve months to align with lunar cycles. To prevent the calendar from drifting out of sync with the solar year, a leap month is added every 19 years, a system established by Hillel II in the 4th century.

  Ben Bolan (09:29): “These are different calendars. The people who practice both of these calendars do constantly have to compare and contrast them.”

• Cultural Significance: The Hebrew calendar determines the dates of Jewish holidays, Torah portions, and memorial services, intertwining religious observance with timekeeping.

  Ben Bolan (10:37): “The year number on the Hebrew calendar represents the number of years since the creation of humanity.”

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3. The Hindu Calendar

Next, the hosts delve into the Hindu calendar, renowned for its complexity and multidimensional approach.

• Multiplicity: The Hindu calendar operates in three major forms alongside the Islamic calendar, catering to diverse regional and religious practices within India.

  Ben Bolan (15:16): “The Hindu calendar, Indian calendar that operates in three major forms all in parallel.”

• Lunar and Solar Integration: Combining lunar days, solar days, lunar months, solar months, and astronomical events, the Hindu calendar offers a precise method of structuring time.

  Noel Brown (18:33): “It offers a very precise multidimensional approach to the structuring of time.”

• Leap Months: To reconcile the 354-day lunar year with the 365-day solar year, an extra month, known as "Adik," is added approximately every three years.

  Ben Bolan (17:34): “The Hindu lunar calendar has an extra month similar to the Jewish calendar, every three years, called adik.”

• Cultural Depth: The Hindu calendar is not just a timekeeping tool but also integrates astrological elements, making it integral to festivals, weddings, and other significant events.

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4. The Chinese Lunar Calendar

The Chinese lunar calendar, rich in mythology and cultural significance, takes center stage next.

• Zodiac Cycle: Central to the Chinese calendar is the 12-year zodiac cycle, with each year represented by an animal sign—such as the Rat, Ox, Tiger, and Snake. 2025, for instance, is the Year of the Snake.

  Ben Bolan (23:19): “The Year of the Snake ([23:19]).”

• Mythological Origins: The hosts recount the legendary story of the Jade Emperor and the race that determined the order of the zodiac animals, highlighting the blend of mythology and timekeeping.

  Noel Brown (24:01): “The dragon is kind of the deus ex machina of the whole affair.”

• Modern Relevance: Despite China’s reliance on the Gregorian calendar for business and civil purposes, the traditional lunar calendar remains pivotal for festivals like the Lantern Festival and Chinese New Year.

  Ben Bolan (21:24): “Modern day China, like so many other countries, heavily relies on the Gregorian calendar. But this traditional lunar calendar is still our go-to authority on when to celebrate things like the Lantern Festival.”

• Astrological Significance: The Chinese zodiac influences not only yearly predictions but also personal horoscopes based on the month and year of birth.

  Ben Bolan (23:48): “This is something that's really common in a lot of our favorite restaurants here in the United States.”

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5. The Islamic Calendar

The Islamic calendar, strictly lunar, presents unique challenges and cultural practices.

• Lunar Structure: Comprising 12 months totaling approximately 354 days, the Islamic calendar lacks the mechanisms to align with the solar year, resulting in a 10-day annual drift.

  Ben Bolan (33:42): “The Islamic calendar will drift about 10 days a year.”

• Religious Significance: The calendar marks important events like Ramadan and Hegirah (Muhammad’s migration from Mecca to Medina), with the start of each month determined by the sighting of the new moon.

  Ben Bolan (32:44): “The Prophet Muhammad's migration from Mecca to Medina, the Hegirah, that's the start date of the calendar.”

• Challenges in Modernity: Moon sightings can vary by geographic location, causing discrepancies between countries about the start and end of months.

  Noel Brown (34:56): “Two Muslim countries who are on the same page about literally everything else may be in different months of the calendar at the same time.”

• Adaptations: Some regions, like Iran and Afghanistan, have adopted the Solar Hijri calendar for civil purposes, blending astronomical precision with traditional practices.

  Noel Brown (33:18): “Iranian and Afghan countries, however, use something called the Solar Hijri calendar.”

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6. The International Fixed Calendar

The episode concludes with an exploration of the International Fixed Calendar, an innovative yet unadopted system.

• Uniformity: This calendar proposes 12 months, each with exactly 28 days, divided into four-week segments starting on Sunday and ending on Saturday.

  Ben Bolan (37:06): “Every month has exactly 28 days.”

• Additional Days: To maintain alignment with the solar year, a 13th month is introduced between June and July, and an extra “Year Day” is celebrated outside the weekly cycle.

  Noel Brown (38:41): “So to fix the fixed calendar, you have to add a new 13th month between June and July.”

• Challenges: The introduction of an extra month disrupts traditional seasonal associations and poses significant practical challenges, hindering widespread adoption.

  Ben Bolan (39:00): “They added that month between June and July, which throws our whole summer baby thing way off.”

• Reception: Despite its logical benefits for scheduling and planning, the calendar faces resistance due to people's strong attachment to existing systems.

  Noel Brown (40:06): “I think I'm into this still. I think I'm on board with the international fixed calendar.”

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7. Conclusion: The Persistence of Diverse Calendars

Ben Bolan and Noel Brown wrap up the episode by reflecting on the intricate relationship between culture, religion, and timekeeping. They acknowledge that while the Gregorian calendar offers simplicity and global uniformity, the richness and depth of alternative calendars provide a window into the values and traditions of diverse societies.

Ben Bolan (45:49): “There are so many other things we could talk about. I'd love maybe to do a history in the future about the various self-created calendars of cult leaders.”

Noel Brown (45:07): “These are all very much tied to culture and tradition and myth-making and all of that. It's a complex cosmic gumbo that yields all these fascinating different calendars.”

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Notable Quotes

• Ben Bolan (01:42): “The Gregorian calendar, despite being the de facto world calendar, is far from the only calendar still in use.”

• Noel Brown (09:27): “This does not sound like a fix to me. This sounds absurd.”

• Ben Bolan (10:37): “The year number on the Hebrew calendar represents the number of years since the creation of humanity.”

• Noel Brown (18:33): “It offers a very precise multidimensional approach to the structuring of time.”

• Ben Bolan (32:44): “The Prophet Muhammad's migration from Mecca to Medina, the Hegirah, that's the start date of the calendar.”

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of Ridiculous History masterfully unpacks the complexities and cultural significances of various non-Gregorian calendars. By weaving historical insights with engaging storytelling, Ben Bolan and Noel Brown offer listeners a deeper appreciation of how time is measured and celebrated across different civilizations. Whether it's the meticulous calculations of the Hebrew calendar or the rich mythology of the Chinese zodiac, the episode underscores the diverse ways humanity understands and organizes time.

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For more intriguing episodes, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Ben Bolan]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you as always so much for tuning in. And let's hear for our super producer, Mr. Max Williams.

[Noel Brown]

Huzzah, huzzah, huzzah.

[Ben Bolan]

Uh huh. Yes. Zoom, Zoom, zoom. That's Mr. Noel Brown. They call me Ben Bolan around this neck of the global woods.

[Noel Brown]

Indeed they do. And boy, oh boy, do we have a bit of a follow up for you today. Also from the mighty mental coffers of our research associate extraordinaire, Jeff the G Train Bartlett. Jeff the G Sauce. G love and special train sauce. What is it? G Unit.

[Ben Bolan]

Factor G is what Jeff has chosen as his hallowed, ridiculous history coach.

[Noel Brown]

I'm sorry, I'm making a bit out of it.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, it's fantastic. We love G unit.

[Noel Brown]

Wasn't that $0.50 crew Gregorian?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, G unit is $0.50 crew of old.

[Noel Brown]

Speaking of $0.50, have you seen the new Happy Gilmore movie?

[Ben Bolan]

I have not, no. Yeah, it's.

[Noel Brown]

Some people are not super fond of it, but it does have a pretty funny cameo from Eminem, who apparently introduced the world to 50 Cent.

[Ben Bolan]

Very well. Yes. And if you have tuned into our earlier episode this week, you know that we already had a very strange exploration of the origin of the current calendar, the Gregorian calendar. It's the one that every everybody uses for international coordination. It's the reason someone can say Wednesday in Kazakhstan and there still also be a Wednesday in July in Kazakhstan. And someone in the US can agree there is a July and there is a Wednesday. But as we alluded to, the Gregorian calendar, despite being the de facto world calendar, is far from the only calendar still in use.

[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bolan]

People are going to use the Gregorian calendar for all kinds of things, but then for all sorts of other reasons. They may use other calendars, and some of the most famous and well known alternate calendars we could call them come from religious beliefs. Maybe we start with the Hebrew calendar.

[Noel Brown]

We must Both the Gregorian and the Hebrew calendar are used in Surprise Surprise Israel, but secular activities and schedulings are measured using the Gregorian calendar.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, so this would be like your school holidays, your business meetings, a lot of birthday celebrations, Gregorian calendar stuff. Festivals, however, are determined by the Hebrew calendar, and there's usually going to be a Jewish holiday every month in that calendar. This calendar also determines the Torah portion of each Shabbat. In addition, it's used to plan memorial services when a loved one passes. The Hebrew calendar is heavily influenced by the Jewish exile in Babylon in the 6th century BCE.

[Noel Brown]

And just out of my own curiosity, just want to clarify that a Torah portion just refers to the readings that are selected for those purposes.

[Ben Bolan]

Particular Shabbats, yes, yeah, absolutely. So according to the Bible, there were 10 months of 30 days each before this exile. There are only four months in the Aviv, which means spring, Ziv, Ethanim and.

[Noel Brown]

Bul, which are like these are seasons. We still have these. We just refer to them as seasons rather than months.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. We know that calendar days in the Gregorian system are measured differently than calendar days in the Hebrew system.

[Noel Brown]

Correct. According to the Hebrew calendar, sunset starts the day. We talked a little bit about this in the previous episode. So as soon as the sun sets on Friday evening, Shabbat begins, and as soon as the sun sets, Shabbat ends.

[Ben Bolan]

And the Jewish calendar has its own system of months. We don't need to list them all for you because we will get in over our heads very quickly. You say that with deep respect.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

So we do have the entirety of the breakdown and the list and how it coordinates with the Gregorian calendar, how you'd interpret it through the Gregorian system. But the thing you need to know is that these are different calendars. The people who practice both of these calendars do constantly have to compare and contrast them. The length of the months, for instance, Chesvan and Kislev, they're determined by these pretty sophisticated calculations that are all meant to make sure Rosh Hashanah falls on the right day.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. So they're using those high holy days as benchmarks to hit. The Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar with each month beginning with the new moon. And the problem, however, with, you know, holding a strictly lunar calendar is that there are approximately 12.4 lunar months in each solar year. So a 12 month cycle or 12 month calendar is just a little bit too short. And that's when you start really getting those hiccups and offsets of time.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, we're in a real Goldilocks parable. So, as you said, Noel, 12 month calendar a little too short. 13 month calendar a little too long. And if we hold to either of those calendars. Absolutely. Then the year will drift in relation to the season. So it's the same problem we saw in the Julian calendar. So, for example, if we're only using a 12 month lunar calendar, the Hebrew calendar's month of Nisan, which is supposed to occur in the spring, would eventually fall back to the winter, the fall, and then the summer. And this is a huge deal. It's something you want to avoid because most holidays and festivals have traditionally been tied to the seasons as well as to the dates during which they're celebrated. So if we go to the 4th century, we meet a guy named Hillel II who said he was going to fix it.

[Noel Brown]

Yep. And he created a remedied Jewish calendar in which the month of Adar is repeated every 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 19th year in a 19 year cycle. These are just Words that I'm saying.

[Ben Bolan]

You.

[Noel Brown]

In order for Passover to always occur during the month of Nisan, while the Jewish New Year happens during the month of Tishri.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. Did you hear me? Under my breath? He's saying, oh, here we go. Because we're here, we're there. Someone said, what about the 12th? And they were. And Hillel II said, get him out of here. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

This does not sound like a fix to me. This sounds absurd, so.

[Ben Bolan]

But you nailed it. Absolutely. When you said, hey, this is because of the purpose of the calendar. All these fixes are to ensure the correct commemoration and celebration of these holy days also. So that's why we have a blend. And I love a blend.

[Noel Brown]

We all love a blend. We love a blend. No one more than Ben loves a blend. What's your favorite fabric blend? I'm like a rayon cotton kind of guy myself.

[Ben Bolan]

I like that. I like a rayon cotton. Gosh, I don't know. Ooh, you're asking someone with synesthesia. That's going to take forever.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, okay, get back to us.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. Okay, let's get back to the calendar. So there's also a different kind of origin point or starting point for this calendar. The year number on the Hebrew calendar represents the number of years since the creation of humanity. And that is calculated by adding up the ages of people in the Bible all the way back to the time of creation.

[Noel Brown]

Stop it.

[Ben Bolan]

That's.

[Noel Brown]

Whose idea was that? Talk about arbitrary.

[Ben Bolan]

Well, it depends on how solid the calculations are and how literally or figuratively we interpret the ages of people in the Bible. You know what I mean?

[Noel Brown]

We're talking about the ages of humans represented in the Bible.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes.

[Noel Brown]

The number of years they're meant to have been. That just seems so odd to choose that metric. But I guess you gotta choose something. Isn't that kind of what it amounts to?

[Ben Bolan]

You do have to choose something. Yeah. If you want an origin point. And you also have to figure out how much importance and trust you place in this religious text. You know what I mean? This doesn't necessarily mean the universe overall has only existed for 5,700 years and change. Many people who practice Judaism, including Orthodox Jews, will readily acknowledge that the first six days of creation are not necessarily 24 hour days.

[Noel Brown]

He was still figuring it out.

[Ben Bolan]

They were still. Yeah, they were still in the ideation, brainstorming phase.

[Noel Brown]

He was spitballing.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. The argument here does seem pretty logical. It's the idea that before the sun was created on the fourth wish wish day, a 24 hour day as a concept would be meaningless.

[Noel Brown]

That is very true, Ben.

[Ben Bolan]

Right. That's not our idea, but he got us with the logic.

[Noel Brown]

No, no. God was a smart fellow.

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[Noel Brown]

So let's move on to the Hindu calendar, the Indian calendar that operates in three major forms all in parallel. And that's apart from the Islamic calendar, which is used by Indian Muslims. So the Gregorian calendar is the default calendar, again for non religious purposes. However, the Indian national calendar is used by the government. Seems problematic if you're trying to sync things up with the rest of the world and several Hindu calendars as well.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, exactly. So again, we see this hybrid approach for people on the ground. If you have a zoom call for your business, you're scheduling that with the Gregorian calendar. If you have a zoom call for government purposes, it's on the Indian national calendar. And if you.

[Noel Brown]

Which to be clear, isn't the same as the Gregorian calendar, which I wasn't misreading.

[Ben Bolan]

Okay, yeah, different things. And if you are celebrating a religious holiday, you would use a Hindu calendar. The Hindu calendar, as we understand it, was developed in antiquity by various scholars on the Indian subcontinent. So multiple people contributed to this over time. We know the earliest mention of this reckoning of time can be found in the Vedas, which date back as far as 1200 BCE. So they've a very important religious text. Yeah, yeah, yes, absolutely. They've been workshopping this for quite a while. And just like other calendars, this system is based on the motion of the moon.

[Noel Brown]

Correct. The lunar year is made up of 354 days. That's compared to 365 and a quarter days in the Gregorian calendar, which again, every time we say it seems ridiculous, which is of course based on the solar system. And that gap increases to a month over a period of three years. So for that very reason, the Hindu lunar calendar has an extra month similar to the Jewish calendar, every three years, called adik. During that month, very important religious events and goings ons like weddings should be avoided.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. I mean, and think about that too in practical terms, right? How are you going to celebrate your first few wedding anniversaries when the month you were married in doesn't exist?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, it's a tricky one.

[Ben Bolan]

It's a tough one. Right.

[Noel Brown]

It's more vibe based.

[Ben Bolan]

There we go. It also shows us an interesting difference in approach. Whereas Western calendrical systems tried to minimize discrepancies over time. You could argue the Hindu lunar calendar accelerated the pattern of discrepancy by building in a more frequent adjustment period. So we're not saying one's better than the other. We're just saying we would never say that. Right. They're approaching the same concern through very different ways. And the Hindu calendar system, by the way, folks, is so much more complex. Would be the right word than the Western calendar.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, that's true. And this could be considered a feature, not a bug. It offers a very precise multidimensional approach to the structuring of time. And it combines a lot of different layers of information, including lunar days, solar days, lunar months. Solar months, and the movement of the sun and moon in relation to other celestial bodies, as well as other spans of time that are defined by astronomy.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, they said we're gonna take everything into account. Whereas the humble Western calendar is buil around two primary units of solar days and solar years.

[Noel Brown]

Bit of a dummy calendar compared to.

[Ben Bolan]

It's a bit of a passage of the heavens for dummies. Yes. To complicate things a little bit more, if you guys are just learning about this and you're saying, hey, I wish this was more confusing. There's also not one single Hindu calendar, which is why you've been hearing us refer to it in the plural sometimes. Each country and region uses its own variant and interpretation of this ancient system. The Indian national calendar we mentioned earlier was standardized since 1957, also known as the Saka calendar. And it represents only one of the many variations of the Hindu calendar. So again, you could be a practicing Hindu in this part of the world, and you could follow the Indian national calendar with its Hindu influence. And then you could follow the Gregorian calendar for business. And then you could follow your family or community's own personal Hindu calendar, which may be a little different.

[Noel Brown]

I'll take passage of time for dummies, please.

[Ben Bolan]

Right. It's a loony solar calendar.

[Noel Brown]

Loony and lunar. And speaking of those things, or at least one the lunar part, why don't we move on to the Chinese lunar calendar, which you may or may not have heard of.

[Ben Bolan]

Love it. Love it. It is essentially a lunar calendar, as you said. Modern day China, like so many other countries, heavily relies on the Gregorian calendar. But this traditional lunar calendar is still our go to authority on when to celebrate things like the Lantern Festival, when to find an auspicious Chinese New Year. Yeah, Chinese New Year Wouldn't find an auspicious date for a wedding, a funeral, moving anything you can imagine. This calendar has 12 months of 29 or 30 days, and each of them begins on the first day of a new moon. And then if you need to correct the calendar drift, you just add a leap month whenever.

[Noel Brown]

A leap month now.

[Ben Bolan]

Well, they had a leap month in the. Earlier in the Indian calendar too, I guess.

[Noel Brown]

That's true. That's true. We got leap months rather than days that are. Yeah, of course, that's exactly right, Ben. But that is the first time I think we've seen it referred to as a leap month.

[Ben Bolan]

I think also just added as needed. Feels a little casual.

[Noel Brown]

Willy nilly ad hoc.

[Ben Bolan]

It feels like a great way to get out of meetings, by the way.

[Noel Brown]

It sure does. Just add a leap month in each of these months can be referred to month of the Chinese calendar can be referred to by an animal name or a number that corresponds to hours of the day. Day as well. This is another super layered calendar. As well as the zodiac cycle and in order of occurrence, animals are again, these are pretty popular in Western culture as well. The rat, the ox, the tiger, the hare, the snake, the dragon, the horse, the sheep, the monkey, the fowl, the dog and the pig. And aren't there like you can be like a metal pig. There's like different, like, like add ons to the, to each of these animal deities as well.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. And this is something that's really common in a lot of our favorite restaurants here in the United States. You might get a placemat with the Chinese horoscopes on it. Right. And then you'll be able to calculate based on not just your month of birth, but also the year. So Western astrology will typically have the 12 once upon a time 13 sun signs. And those are all based on a specific period rising signs. Right, Right. In the Chinese calendar, it's not just based on the month, it's also based on the year you're born. And it's pretty interesting stuff.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. And there are different versions of this as well. Even within the region, we see different variations. In Vietnam and Korea, as well as.

[Ben Bolan]

The Ryukyu Islands, we mentioned the zodiac system. One other thing to know is that in this 12 year zodiac cycle, each year is assigned an animal. Each animal is associated with a personality that is supposed to be representative of the year and those born during that year. So for instance, as we're recording here in 2025, this is the year of the snake.

[Noel Brown]

Watch out, watch out, watch out, watch out.

[Ben Bolan]

Right. Yeah. The story goes that the Jade Emperor once upon a time declared the first animal to cross a River will be the first in the calendar. The second animal. Arbitrary.

[Noel Brown]

Arbitrary, yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

The second animal will be second. And then you guys get the pattern I'm putting down. And they were like, yes, Emperor.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, so, yeah, this is a parable. Of course, there was the cat and the rat who asked the ox for a little. Little bit of a piggyback ride. This is like the tortoise in the hare situation as well.

[Ben Bolan]

Exactly.

[Noel Brown]

Or the scorpion reached the bank and then the crafty rat pushed the cat into the river.

[Ben Bolan]

And then the rat jumps off the ox. And that's how the rat gets to be first in his own because he's a cheater. And then the tiger comes after the ox, who's followed by the rabbit. And then the rabbit has this adventure, kind of like Frogger jumping from rock to rock and leaps on a log that gets blown to the shore. Then the dragon shows up and the dragon. Look, the interpretation of reptilian creatures is way different in Chinese mythology. So the snake's not necessarily bad. Neither is the dragon.

[Noel Brown]

Well, the dragon just doesn't give a.

[Ben Bolan]

Right. Exactly.

[Noel Brown]

Like, he's got. He's. He's out there dragoning, you know, like, controlling the laws of nature and whatnot. It's because of him that the rabbit, its log, got blown ashore in the first place. So one could argue the dragon is kind of the deus ex machina of the whole affair.

[Ben Bolan]

100%.

[Jonathan Strickland]

And also practicing its thums.

[Ben Bolan]

Right? Yes, yes. Fustora. The dragon here is a good guy, is doing a little bit of a rescue mission. This dragon has stopped to bring rain to a village. The snake takes sixth place. The horse shows up in seventh place. Tenth place. The rooster, sometimes identified as the fowl, as we mentioned earlier, finds a raft and rides the raft with the monkey and the goat across the river. Yeah, yeah. And so the goat is the eighth month, the monkey the ninth, the rooster the tenth. Yep.

[Noel Brown]

What about the dog? The dog got distracted, didn't he? Yeah, he was just splashing around, picking up sticks and rocks, just chasing his tail, not a care in the world.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. It's like watching golden retrievers try to race. You know what I mean? They're just having too much fun.

[Noel Brown]

They are? Yeah. Why not? He did, however, beat the pig, who was apparently wallowing in his own, and.

[Ben Bolan]

Stopped for a meal and then had a nap.

[Noel Brown]

Had a wallow, a meal and a nap. In that order.

[Ben Bolan]

Classic Saturday. But even the pig did better than the cat. Here's where it takes a dark turn. When the rat pushed the Cat into the river. The cat drowned. Save for the cat. It's a pretty interesting story.

[Noel Brown]

I don't buy it. Cats are too. I don't think that would happen.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Noel Brown]

I guess cats are freaked out by water though.

[Ben Bolan]

We need to know a lot more.

[Jonathan Strickland]

Yeah, but it's a myth that cats can't swim. Cats are actually pretty competent swimmers. They hate it every second that they're in water.

[Ben Bolan]

Not all.

[Jonathan Strickland]

That's why they're actually kind of good at swimming, because they get out. I mean, all cats.

[Noel Brown]

Check out the amazing animated film Flow for evidence.

[Ben Bolan]

Love it. Oh, Flo was so good. Or if you want to disassociate, just watch some YouTube clips of tigers swimming. I love that. Man, they're amazing. Tigers might be my favorite cats. Sorry, I'm apologizing to my own cats now.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, no, they know. They know you love them.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh yeah, we'll see. So we know then that the Chinese calendar has this deep lore. And as does the Chinese zodiac, they play a heavy role in modern Chinese life. This calendar also marks the country's biggest holiday. If you talk to any average Chinese national, they're gonna know their zodiac, the sign under which they were born. What they might not know is that each sign also matches a month of the year and a season of the year, like the Western astrological signs. So it's interesting. But we're already, as we're continuing, we're seeing a pattern. A lot of these alternative calendars are lunar based. So with that, since we've mentioned the Hebrew and the Chinese and the Hindu calendars, we've got to mention the amazing accomplishments of the Islamic calendar. Because they don't use leap months, they don't use leap days. They don't play that game.

[Noel Brown]

Much like the dragon in the Chinese calendar, the Islamic calendar don't give a. They don't care about the drift. They're fine with it.

[Ben Bolan]

They embrace the drift.

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[Ben Bolan]

It's all there.

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[Ben Bolan]

Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to US customers through PayWord Interactive Inc. Terms and conditions apply. The named months slowly retrogress throughout the solar year, taking 32 and a half years to reoccur at the same seasonal time. So there's a 32 and a half year. I guess we could call it a drift cycle, but it repeats on that period.

[Noel Brown]

And I fully support you doing so, Ben. It does still, however, have an important religious benchmark that it isn't necessarily trying to achieve or trying to get to work backwards to get to. It just uses that as the start date of the whole damn thing.

[Ben Bolan]

Right? Yes. Yeah. The Prophet Muhammad's Praise be unto journey from Mecca to Medina, the Hegirah, that's the start date of the calendar. And so in all modern Muslim countries, as we know, you will see the Islamic calendar often used for religious or ceremonial or personal spiritual purposes. And the Gregorian calendar is used for civil purposes. We can say this. When we were in Qatar not too long ago, just like everybody else in the region, people are using the Gregorian calendar. But then when you go to the mosque or when you enter certain holy sites, the Islamic calendar is your main guide.

[Noel Brown]

For sure. Makes sense.

[Ben Bolan]

It makes sense, and it's common.

[Noel Brown]

I mean, it doesn't make sense, but it makes sense that they would choose to do it.

[Ben Bolan]

Okay. I mean, that hybrid approach makes sense in that so many other places do something similar. Right, Right. And the Islamic calendar is based on 12 months, but they're lunar months, and they begin when the thin crescent moon is actually sighted in the western sky after sunset, a day or so after the new moon. And this is important for the purposes of the Islamic calendar. This sighting must be made with the unaided eye.

[Noel Brown]

Copy that.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. It's something that differentiates it from a lot of other lunar calendars. Now, we know that the 12 lunar months add up to 354 or 355 days. So the Islamic calendar will drift about 10 days a year. And that means that Ramadan, the month of fasting, can happen either in summer or winter, depending on its cycle in the calendar.

[Noel Brown]

You know, I dig the flexibility of this setup. Not gonna lie. The Islamic calendar is also generally only used for religious holidays, like you said, not civil events. In most Islamic countries, Gregorian calendars are used to track these public events. Iranian and Afghan countries, however, use something called the Solar Hijri calendar, which is an exception to the whole civil event rule. And this comes from calendar.com which, of course, it's a thing that exists.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, yes. Which we've referenced in the past. Let's go back to this idea of observing the rise of the new moon. This is a bit of a bag of badgers. There's a bit of a pickle, because you are required to sight that passage of the moon with the unaided eye. Each country makes its own observation. And it gets tricky when you realize that the sun sets later as you head farther west, and the conditions might make the moon easier or harder to see in one particular place instead of another. So the result can be that two Muslim countries who are on the same page about literally everything else may be in different months of the calendar at the same time.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, now you lost me.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, we.

[Noel Brown]

You know, I said I like the setup, the flexibility, but now it's starting to get.

[Ben Bolan]

You might win some, but you just.

[Noel Brown]

Have to rewind me again. Yeah, yeah, fair enough.

[Ben Bolan]

We know that this is something that countries are actively putting their heads around in the modern day because these kinds of calendars or this kind of practice made a lot of sense when the world was less connected. Right. When you.

[Noel Brown]

When you.

[Ben Bolan]

That's true.

[Noel Brown]

When you had your own kind of bubble, that's all that really mattered.

[Ben Bolan]

You're living in Connecticut. You don't need to make sure you're on the same page with Malaysia in the 1700s, because you're never going to go to Malaysia.

[Noel Brown]

Probably not. Chances are low. Chances are low.

[Ben Bolan]

Chances are low. Unless you're like a whaler, a mariner, or a teleporter. Or a teleporter. Quite common in Connecticut in the 1700s.

[Noel Brown]

Well, Connecticut Yankee. He kind of was a teleporter. Think about time traveler.

[Ben Bolan]

Anyway, think about it. We're just saying think about it.

[Noel Brown]

That's what we're saying.

[Ben Bolan]

There are some signals that different countries practicing the Islamic calendar may start using calculations instead of observations with the unaided eye. But not everyone's agreed on the best way to do that, and not everyone's agreed that they actually want to do that.

[Noel Brown]

Ben, you'll also probably remember when we were in Qatar, we visited the Museum of Islamic Culture and some of the most incredible illuminated texts I've ever seen. I just think that the script that is used, of course, is gorgeous and the calligraphy and all of that. But there were also a lot of exhibits regarding astronomy.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, 100%. And we owe the scientists and the scholars of that period, especially in the days of the Ottomans, we owe them a great debt for sure.

[Noel Brown]

No question about it. We could go on about the Islamic calendar, and we have. But for purposes of time, we're gonna move on one to the international fixed calendar. This one is one that I honestly was not aware of, at least in these terms.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, it's kind of like how Esperanto is the universal language that no one Speaks. There you go. So we have tried to fix the calendar. The fixed calendar is an alternative system for keeping time. And here's our pitch. Every month has exactly 28 days. Okay? No extra long or extra short months. 28 days. That's all you get. The idea here is consistency. Every month also has four weeks that always begin on a Sunday, the 1st, and end on Saturday the 28th. Every month's days are the same number. Every single 17th is a Tuesday. The first Friday of the month is always the 6th.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, I don't mind this so far. Is there any reason it didn't take off? Because it seems that it would make scheduling and planning kind of a breeze from month to month.

[Ben Bolan]

I do have a twist for you in a second.

[Noel Brown]

Okay. Of course.

[Ben Bolan]

Max Shoes.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I will say, like, I'm pretty sure this is the same one. I wrote about this one in the leap year episode where it's like, this guy, and he's, like, very angry about this thing. And everything I read about him was him just angry about the Gregorian calendar. So I was like, I'm going to stick with Gregorian calendar out of spite to this guy.

[Ben Bolan]

So, yeah, let's keep going. Here's the twist. Here's the twist. So far, so good. It says our compatriot Noel, the issue is 28 days in each month. Even though that's more fair to the individual months, it only adds up to 336 days total in a year.

[Noel Brown]

Damn.

[Ben Bolan]

So to fix the fixed calendar, you have to add a new 13th month between June and July.

[Noel Brown]

So it's not fixed at all. I mean, I think in the context of the title, wouldn't fixed refer to, like, being immovable rather than, like, repaired?

[Ben Bolan]

Right, right, right. Well, I think maybe in both senses is the ambition. But they added that month between June and July, which throws our whole summer baby thing way off.

[Noel Brown]

You have soul, sweet summer child.

[Ben Bolan]

Right? To represent the summer soul, like the old word for the sun. So now that we have this extra month, the total goes to 364. We only have one day. Still one short leftover. It's always the one day, right? And so here's what the fixed calendar says. They say, look, forget it, guys. School's out once a year. We're just whatever we'll call it a celebration day. It's after Saturday.

[Noel Brown]

That's fun.

[Ben Bolan]

It's after Saturday, December 28th. Because remember, all months are 28 now.

[Noel Brown]

But swimming, we'll wear party hats. Drink pink lemonade. Pizza. Clown tights.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, the rise of clown pits. We'll have, you know, we'll have bingo.

[Noel Brown]

We'll have a field day, you know?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, we'll have a field day. It is literally a celebration that occurs after the last official day of the year, but before the beginning official day of the next year, Sunday, January 1st, and they call it Year Day.

[Noel Brown]

I think I'm into this still. I think I'm on board with the international fixed calendar.

[Ben Bolan]

Because of year Day. Because there's a party. Yes.

[Noel Brown]

It sounds like a hoot. It sounds like a hoot. I'm just being contrarian.

[Jonathan Strickland]

I like my calendar being confusing. I like my calendar being extra. I want to be challenged some.

[Noel Brown]

I'm being positively contrarian.

[Ben Bolan]

I like it reminds me of the kind of logic in some of my favorite young adult books. Sideways stories from what? It was sideways stories from Wayside High, for sure. Yeah, I remember those.

[Noel Brown]

Stuff was all wacky at Wayside High.

[Ben Bolan]

Right. Sometimes took a dark turn. That's kind of what's happening with Year Day, because the day falls on December 29, logically. But the calendar's official line is it falls on no day of the week. It's just a day.

[Noel Brown]

School. Not even high. It was just Wayside School by Lewis Sacher. I remember this book from the book fair. There's a. A creepy, witchy looking teacher with, like, elf ears on the front. Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

There's a. There's a story in the school that doesn't exist. This was cool because this was a sleeper hit right up. There was scary stories to tell in the dark, bro.

[Noel Brown]

Book Fair books when we were a kid were amazing. Like, irresponsibly dark.

[Ben Bolan]

I loved it.

[Noel Brown]

I think it wrecked us in some ways. Scary stories to tell in the dark. The illustrations alone. Oh, yeah. Which were pretty beautifully captured in that Guillermo del Toro produced.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Of Adaptation, which wasn't, like, great, but, like, I thought they did a cool job of translating those freaky drawings into, you know, character design. But yeah, that book messed me up, man.

[Ben Bolan]

I loved it. Probably did affect the way that I write.

[Noel Brown]

Then her head fell off.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. The worms crawled in. The worms crawled out. The worms. Oh, I love it.

[Noel Brown]

They play P. What even is pinochle?

[Ben Bolan]

It's a card game.

[Noel Brown]

Also like tiddlywinks.

[Ben Bolan]

It's just. It's a card game that I really don't want us to have to try to get into explaining.

[Noel Brown]

Is it like Pog? It's like Pog.

[Ben Bolan]

Okay, I'm pulling up the definition from Britannica. It's like a trick taking ace, 10 card game with a 48 card deck. It's derived from the card game Bezique.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, yes, of course. Bezique with Middle Eastern roots, perhaps.

[Ben Bolan]

Wait, I thought you were being sarcastic. What is Bezique? Oh, you know, Bezier. No.

[Noel Brown]

Is it not? I think it seems like it would. It's. I don't know. It seems like it would be an ancient card game.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, gosh. I'm derailing us. We're derailing. We gotta get.

[Noel Brown]

We're derailing all the way to a close.

[Ben Bolan]

We gotta.

[Noel Brown]

Episode. I think. I think it's time.

[Ben Bolan]

We gotta get back on the rails here. This newly proposed fixed calendar is meant to overcome a lot of the challenges we talked about earlier. The advantages are obvious, but it has not been adopted because of kind of a time measurement version of path dependence. People are just really committed to the existing calendars they practice, regardless of how imperfect those may be.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Brand loyalty.

[Jonathan Strickland]

You know, I mean, if I can jump in here, this is. This is my honest take, actually, is a Gregorian calendar is not very far off. I think it's the year like 49 is when we'll actually have to make an adjustment for the first time. But the other one is it feels like it might be one of these things where it's going to cost more pain to institute it in than just keep with what we got.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, we've seen it in so many other industries and fields. Honestly, it's the reason Japan still uses fax machines all the time. Because we already have the fax machines. Right. So how much will it cost to replace them? You know? Or maybe big calendar is entering the fray. Maybe they just don't want things to change. Or Noel, I'm gonna say it. Maybe Max is anti year Day.

[Noel Brown]

Hey, Max is anti fun.

[Ben Bolan]

Max's anti birthday is like one of the best holidays. We could get Hawaiian shirts that say no day of the week. You know, I don't know why your day seems Hawaii themed to me at this point. I'm spitballing. We'll figure out your day. Tell us how you want to celebrate it. We are going to wrap up by telling you that there have, of course, been multiple other less successful attempts at calendars. One of my favorite, of course, is the juche calendar of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Dprk. Street name North Korea. I'm going to their own calendar.

[Noel Brown]

Hell yeah. Go weird. Different calendar. And weird is the wrong word. These are all very much tied to culture and tradition and myth making and all of that. It's a complex cosmic gumbo that, that yields all these fascinating different calendars.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, we used to say that on set. It's kind of a cosmic gumbo.

[Noel Brown]

We did.

[Ben Bolan]

We know that there are some calendars that were very much motivated by political changes. The French Republican calendar, the Soviet calendar, both purposely created to move society away from the influence of monarchs and religion. And in the Soviet calendar to expressly make sure output levels were high. That's, that's how, like, that's how they.

[Noel Brown]

Got to get a good yield.

[Ben Bolan]

You got to get a good yield. There are so many other things we could talk about. I'd love maybe to do a history in the future about the various self created calendars of cult leaders.

[Noel Brown]

Why not?

[Ben Bolan]

They don't take off.

[Noel Brown]

That's great.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

But did Applewhite have a calendar?

[Ben Bolan]

He had a calendar with an end date.

[Noel Brown]

The Heaven's Gate guy?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Big bald guy in the sky? Yeah. No, this is interesting, Ben. It's not occurred to me. I would love to go and do this sometime. Maybe on stage. They don't want you to know.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, well, we'll see. We'll check what day it is. And as we're gearing up to celebrate our first year day together, I just love the name.

[Noel Brown]

Yep, I'm all for it. Sign me up for the international fixed calendar.

[Ben Bolan]

And please sign us up as some of your biggest fans. Ridiculous historians, thank you so much for tuning in and supporting the show. Big shout out to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Big shout out to James Jeff Factor G. Bartlett, our research associate and of course our guy who created his own calendar, Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quister.

[Noel Brown]

Every day is J day long may he reign. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Noel Brown]

This is an I Heart podcast.