Victorians Got Super Weird With Flirting, Part One: "Fan Fiction"

Summary

Ridiculous History Podcast Summary

Title: Victorians Got Super Weird With Flirting, Part One: "Fan Fiction"
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
Release Date: February 4, 2025

Ridiculous History delves into the peculiar and often overlooked facets of human civilization. In the episode titled "Victorians Got Super Weird With Flirting, Part One: 'Fan Fiction'," hosts Ben Bullen and Noel Brett Brown explore the intricate and clandestine methods Victorians employed to express romantic interest amidst stringent societal norms.

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Understanding Victorian Society and Its Constraints

The Victorian era, marked by rapid industrialization and scientific progress, presented a society deeply entrenched in rigid hierarchies and traditional values. Queen Victoria herself sought to reinforce these societal norms by promoting purity, piety, and duty—concepts that emphasized chastity before marriage, religious devotion, and adherence to one's societal role.

Ben Bullen aptly summarizes the societal pressures:

"Victoria really was trying to impose some very rigid, traditional kind of family values... This was not a great time for women's rights in which is ironically brought on by a woman, the Queen." ([16:17])

The era’s strict moral codes made open expressions of affection taboo, especially among the upper echelons of society. Men faced repercussions for misconduct, but it was the women who bore the brunt of societal punishment, making interactions between unmarried men and women highly scrutinized and fraught with risk.

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The Art of Subtle Flirting: Fan Language

In an environment where direct expressions of affection were perilous, Victorians developed sophisticated non-verbal communication methods to convey romantic interest discreetly. One such method was fan language, where the positioning and movement of a hand-held fan served as a covert medium for flirtation.

Noel Brett Brown introduces the concept:

"The Victorian era is so romanticized because secret love is so much more sultry... there are a lot of pretty, you know, sultry novelizations of this era and the types of little trysts that some of these very mannered folks would have." ([24:23])

These subtle gestures allowed individuals to communicate their intentions without overt actions that could be misinterpreted or lead to scandal. For instance:

• Carrying the fan in the right hand in front of the face signified a request to be followed.
• Letting the fan rest on the left cheek meant a polite decline, while on the right cheek, it indicated interest.
• Drawing the fan across the eye expressed an apology, and closing the fan suggested a desire to speak privately.

Ben Bullen humorously critiques these gestures:

"You have to be very careful, especially if you are a pressed member of the society at the time... it is so weird." ([29:44])

The complexity and specificity of fan language highlight the lengths to which Victorians went to navigate the intricacies of courtship within societal constraints.

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Flower Language: Botany as a Romantic Lexicon

Parallel to fan language, Victorians also employed the language of flowers as another layer of secret communication. Flowers carried specific meanings, allowing individuals to express sentiments that were otherwise socially restricted.

Noel Brett Brown explains:

"Flowers, whether seen singly or in complicated arrangements, communicated the incommunicable... Foreign to the direct expression of feelings, flowers became a medium for covert communication." ([43:55])

Examples of flower meanings include:

• Red Roses: Symbolized profound love and commitment.
• Purple Violets: Indicated that the giver's thoughts were occupied with love for the recipient.
• Apple Blossoms: Communicated that the recipient was the primary object of affection.
• Yellow Carnations: Signified rejection, conveying that the sender did not reciprocate the feelings.
• Ivy Leaves: Represented friendship and indicated a friend zone scenario.

These floral codes enabled Victorians to navigate romantic interactions with a degree of safety and discretion. Ben Bullen reflects on the practicality and risks associated with this method:

"If you get a yellow carnation back, it was... being rejected. That would be... devastating." ([47:29])

The cost and accessibility of specific flowers were also indicative of one’s social standing, as not everyone could afford the elaborate arrangements required to send meaningful messages.

---

Postage Stamp Flirtations: Letters as Secret Messages

In addition to fan and flower languages, Victorians utilized the placement and orientation of postage stamps on letters to convey hidden messages. This method allowed couriers to express intentions without alerting third parties who might intercept and read the correspondence.

Ben Bullen illustrates the subtlety of this practice:

"The placement of the stamp was a way to bypass the fact that you are hitting on someone who may already be part of a larger family." ([39:30])

Examples of stamp-based codes include:

• Upside-Down Stamp on the Top Left Corner: "I love you."
• Upside-Down Stamp on the Right Corner: "Get out of my DMs. I don't want to talk to you anymore."
• Stamp in the Middle at the Right Hand Edge: "Write immediately. I'm burning with desire."
• Friend Zone Indicators: Placement on different corners implied different levels of friendship or disinterest.

These codes required both parties to be knowledgeable about their meanings, adding another layer of secrecy and exclusivity to their communications.

---

The Social Implications of Secret Flirtations

Engaging in covert romantic exchanges was fraught with social risks. Discovering flirtatious intentions could lead to significant social ostracization, especially for women who were disproportionately punished for transgressions. Thus, the methods developed were not just about romantic expression but also about survival within a rigid societal framework.

Noel Brett Brown emphasizes the dangers:

"Usually, by the way, this is a pretty misogynistic hierarchy at the time. So a dude would do something bad, and then it was the woman, the female partner, who was punished, of course." ([23:30])

These clandestine interactions often required participants to be inventive and cautious, fostering a culture of secrecy and indirect communication.

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Conclusion and Continuing the Conversation

The Victorian era's unique blend of strict societal norms and innovative communication methods created a complex landscape for romantic interactions. Through fan language, flower symbolism, and postage stamp codes, Victorians navigated the delicate balance between expressing affection and adhering to societal expectations.

The episode concludes with a teaser for the next part of the series, promising to delve deeper into the history of flirting and the elaborate tactics employed by Victorians to maintain their romantic endeavors within the confines of their time.

Ben Bullen humorously wraps up the discussion:

"I can't wait for you to join us, folks, in our ongoing exploration of flirting and flirting in the Victorian era." ([50:09])

Ridiculous History effectively highlights how even within the most restrictive societies, humans find creative ways to connect and express their deepest emotions.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ben Bullen ([16:17]):
  "Victoria really was trying to impose some very rigid, traditional kind of family values... This was not a great time for women's rights in which is ironically brought on by a woman, the Queen."

• Noel Brett Brown ([24:23]):
  "The Victorian era is so romanticized because secret love is so much more sultry... there are a lot of pretty, you know, sultry novelizations of this era and the types of little trysts that some of these very mannered folks would have."

• Ben Bullen ([29:44]):
  "You have to be very careful, especially if you are a pressed member of the society at the time... it is so weird."

• Noel Brett Brown ([43:55]):
  "Flowers, whether seen singly or in complicated arrangements, communicated the incommunicable."

• Ben Bullen ([39:30]):
  "The placement of the stamp was a way to bypass the fact that you are hitting on someone who may already be part of a larger family."

---

Note: Advertisements and non-content segments have been excluded from this summary to focus solely on the episode's main discussions and insights.

Transcript

[Ben Bullen]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning in. Now I'm going to slide into the DMs here of our show and hit up Our super producer, Mr. Max Williams, with a slow blink. Max Tapillion.

[Noel Brett Brown]

This is my new nickname for you.

[Ben Bullen]

Max, tap the fan. Just so pull that glove off slowly.

[Noel Brett Brown]

One finger at a time, seductively.

[Ben Bullen]

I want you to really feel that one right. My name is Ben Bullen. Who are those dulcet tones? Why, that's Mr. Noel Brett Brown, who's been sliding into my DMs for a number of years now.

[Noel Brett Brown]

It's so, so erotic when you say it like that.

[Ben Bullen]

We mostly guys. We mostly text each other. Gosh, it's weird how often we talk even when we're not working. Fellow Ridiculous historians, Noel and I have been flirting with each other in a very supportive way for lo. These many years.

[Noel Brett Brown]

I was gonna say lo these. Wow. Oh, my gosh. They were off to such a ban.

[Ben Bullen]

Mind reader. We should hang out.

[Max Williams]

We do jump in to jump in here with a. A little funny count. I just did. We have sent 27 direct messages to each other via our communication software this morning alone. It is not noon yet when we're.

[Ben Bullen]

Recording this in case people are wondering.

[Max Williams]

How we DM each other.

[Noel Brett Brown]

I'm cool with that.

[Ben Bullen]

I love everyone.

[Noel Brett Brown]

These are consensual, by the way. No one's, like, blowing anybody up.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're. We're actually. Usually when Max and Noel and I text each other you guys. Or talk to each other when we're not on the air, it's weirdly supportive stuff or a very niche thing that we want each other to see.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Like, it's quite a bromance.

[Noel Brett Brown]

For example, just the other day or this morning, in fact, I texted you both. Birds do it. Bees do it. Even educated fleas do it. Guys, let's do it. Let's fall in love.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Yeah. And I. I super liked that. I believe on that social platform.

[Noel Brett Brown]

How do you even do that? Oh, via text. I didn't know you could super, like via text.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Yeah. Remember when I figured out that was a bad yes.

[Noel Brett Brown]

And that was a bad yes.

[Ben Bullen]

And remember when I figured out it was on text with you? No. I figured out that the newest iPhone update lets you make the words bigger.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Yeah. Or like, makes them vibrate with ecstasy.

[Ben Bullen]

That's.

[Noel Brett Brown]

I'm sorry, guys. It's a horny episode today. This poor guy.

[Ben Bullen]

This my Buddy Noel. This poor gu had to witness me in real time on text figuring out Chrome how you can make the words embiggen and vibrate. Ooh, tumescent.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Well, I have a little condition called fat finger syndrome, so I'm constantly making words vibrate and dance around and explode into confetti and all of that. But, Ben, back to that titillating text that I sent you guys. I really did do that. I didn't, actually. Our incredible research associate, Ren Fair, put that Ren faire Renfest, you know, potato potaho put those lyrics at the top of this incredible research brief that she wrote for us, which are from the Broadway composer and songwriter Cole porter in his 1928 musical Paris. I honestly didn't know that I knew the line. I've heard it repeated in cartoons and probably heard various covers of it, but I didn't know. I've never even heard of Paris.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, check out the Ella Fitzgerald cover.

[Noel Brett Brown]

That's the one. I know the best.

[Ben Bullen]

Beautiful. And as Renfest points out, falling in love is always nice. It takes a little work up front to get the sparks flying. I'm quoting you there, Ren.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Do you remember a Latter day Aerosmith song? It was called Falling in love is so hard on the knees.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes. Yes.

[Noel Brett Brown]

What does that even mean? I guess it means you're always begging. Or is it some sort of innuendo? Is he saying falling in love is hard is difficult?

[Ben Bullen]

I'm going to be honest with you. I think it means Steven Tyler is bad at lyrics.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Okay, that's fair. Yeah, maybe he. He. He. He has slumped a little bit.

[Ben Bullen]

He had a country music album that came out. He had a single called Her Name is Love.

[Noel Brett Brown]

But come on, dude, is. Dude looks like a lady that didn't age well. Honestly, not. Not well at all. In an elevator.

[Ben Bullen]

All right, all right.

[Noel Brett Brown]

They're doing it in an elevator. They're falling in love in an elevator.

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[Ben Bullen]

So with this in mind, we know that the course of true love never did run smooth, right? To quote our buddy Willie Shakes. So we are a no judgment show. We usually back each other up and we usually back up everybody who tunes in with us.

[Noel Brett Brown]

That's the thing though, Ben. I think it's a great entry point into today's story because a lot of it is about the decorum of flirting and the way people would often flout said decorum. You know, sneakily doing their best.

[Ben Bullen]

And with help from our research associate, Renfest, we are exploring the idea of flirtation. Noel, Max, did either of you guys ever have a moment where you got flirted upon and realized it after the fact?

[Max Williams]

Oh God, too many. In my life I am sometimes painfully unaware I have it with my advanced age now, I'm kind of happy about that. I find I'm a little happier when I'm blissfully unaware about stuff but in love it. You realize after the fact like three months later, like, oh, that person who I, who I find attractive used to hit on me Pretty aggressively. And now they don't because I didn't pick up on the fact that they were hitting on me.

[Ben Bullen]

You'll get that Greek dermatologist one day.

[Max Williams]

Yeah, the Greek dermatologist.

[Noel Brett Brown]

I think I'm so blissfully unaware of it that I could probably even to this day, day argue that, no, that has never happened to me.

[Ben Bullen]

All right, for any fans of Quantum Leap, please realize that my pal Noel and I often hang out in a situation where I'm kind of like your. Your sidekick in your Scott Bakula spot, you know, And I'm. Yeah, I'm kind of.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Ziggy. You're helping me out. You're. What's the word? Cyanoing me? Kind of. Yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes. Oh, well. So today we are talking about flirting in the Victorian era. Specifically.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Ben, I did think you were gonna, you know, throw me a bone there and say, and as your wingman, I can with 100% accuracy and certainty say that you have definitely been low key, flirted with. But you didn't go there. And I respect that.

[Ben Bullen]

I've gotta check with Ziggy, man. I've gotta check with Ziggy.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Ziggy doesn't know. But what Ziggy could check with is Psychology Today for a pretty solid definition of the concept of flirting. They describe it as nature's solution to the problem every creature faces in a world of potential mates, how to choose the right one. We all need a partner who is not merely fertile, but genetically different, as well as healthy enough to promise viable offspring, provide some kind of help in the heart job of parenting, and offer some social compatibility.

[Ben Bullen]

This sounds like a Ferengi, honestly.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Yeah. The wonks of Psychology Today know how to turn a phrase.

[Ben Bullen]

So. So, yes, the wonks. So psychology wonks, psychology walks sidewalks. So some people and other animals are better at getting a date than others. As the quote continues in Psychology Today, however, we see the prevalence across species of flirting. And it shows us that this idea, this concept, I would argue of courtship is hardwired into our genes alongside basic survival instincts. Fight or flight. Now, Noel, I know you're not the biggest avian fan.

[Noel Brett Brown]

I've been warming up to them. You've got a local hawk and a local owl. I don't run inside with my tail between my legs quite as quickly anymore.

[Ben Bullen]

I just want to point out that avians birds are amazing at courtship.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Oh, dude, I mean, I think I told you. One of the reasons I've been warming up to birds is I'm a big fan of the board game Wingspan and In that there's all these incredibly beautifully illustrated cards of, like, every bird you can imagine. They're always adding new birds to the deck. And they give you a little helpful tidbit about each of these birds when you play the card in a very pleasant voice. If you're playing it on the switch or mobile. We're not sponsored by Wingspan, but it's a great game.

[Ben Bullen]

Or if you're played on Mobile, Alabama.

[Noel Brett Brown]

100%. Yeah. Mobile, I think, is how they say it yonder. I have definitely learned about the courtship, the mating rituals of birds by playing this game. And the thing I think that maybe sets them apart and makes them better at it is they just do it with such precision. There's no, like, styling on it. I mean, there is sometimes there's certain dances.

[Ben Bullen]

Well, okay, that's right. Choreography.

[Noel Brett Brown]

But I guess what I'm getting at, maybe this is wrongheaded, but it just seems that it's a little bit more laser focused. And it's like, it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen for you. If you just spin around in circles and hop up and down enough and tweet at the right rhythm, you're gonna find a mate. Because it is conduc. The betterment of birdkind. But with humans, we get so in our heads about it, to your point, that it just doesn't work out that way every time. And maybe it's hard for the birds, too, but it just seems like they kind of got it figured out is all I'm saying.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, they're scoped in. They're locked in on, like, a very specific bird. To your point, you'll never see an owl flirting with a corvid. You'll never see a hawk flirting with a sparrow. They know what they're about. They've got their demographics decided, and they are existing. I love this, Noel. Because they are existing in a rigid hierarchy. Right.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Which we exist in, too. But because of things like social media and entertainment and different things that we compare ourselves to and always kind of thinking about thinking it is a little less straightforward.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. Because of the metacognition getting in one's head. It turns out, folks, this is a true story. Back in the reign of Queen Victoria, a lot of human beings. Yeah, a lot of human beings had the same rigid hierarchy of flirting that birds possess today.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Yeah. The Victorian area with their mannered ways. I guess I'm thinking about it from BBC dramas and TV upstairs, downstairs, everybody's in trouble. Yeah, 100%. And it was a response to the Rapid industrialization of British society and kind of another enlightenment with knowledge and information and technology improving and spreading at exponential rates.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, Think about it. We have all of a sudden, as a civilization, arrived at the rest of the world. There are printing presses, there are railroads. You can send a letter to someone that you would ordinarily never be able to meet in person, and then you can hop a train and go see them. You can also learn more about other cultures. At this point, literacy is still not for everyone. But if you are a person who can read, if you are literate, then you also read a ton of books and you want to talk about those books with other people. This is the age of scientific progress.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Right, Right. The age of Darwin and his Origin of the Species are on the origin of the Species.

[Ben Bullen]

He ate everyone, folks. Jack was right.

[Noel Brett Brown]

He ate the tortoises, he ate the hares, he ate whatever he made a note about, apparently. Yeah, no, shout out to Jack, for sure. And that's very important. Work dropped in 1859, which also gave rise to some more novel interpretations of Bible stories, non Anglican branches of the Church and a brand new thing on the scene which is still pretty popular today. Atheism.

[Ben Bullen]

Go, team. Anyway, with a society in flux, Queen Victoria sought to sort of diminish or suppress this evolving tide of scientific, secular inquiry. I know, but, yeah, she was wet.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Blanket boo.

[Ben Bullen]

Science, says the Queen. She said, we need to shore up our cultural definitions. We need traditional Christian values. Purity, piety, duty. To put that in modern terms, that means stay virgin till you're married.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Chaste.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And piety. Do you want to talk a little bit about that, Noel?

[Noel Brett Brown]

Yeah. Victoria really was trying to impose some very rigid, traditional kind of family values, I guess, let's say casting a woman as having the duty of being chaste, a woman of God, to marry a man comparable, compatible with Victorian morals, and of course, to produce as many, many heirs as humanly possible. Pop. Just pop, pop. Popping them out. That's a lot of pops. Unless, of course, she died during childbirth or her husband committed her to some sort of backwards psychiatric institution for hysteria. I'm doing really hard quotation fingers right now. This was not a great time for women's rights in which is ironically brought on by a woman, the Queen.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. And, Ren, if you're hearing this, I know we're both fans of the excellent short story the Yellow Wallpaper. Piety, to respond to this, piety is the idea of religious devotion. They wanted people to be fundamentalist and duty, of course, like you Said Noel is just the idea that one is born to a specific role in society. Oh, are you female? And you happen to be an amazing scientist. Too bad. Yeah, right.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Get in the kitchen. Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Very, very mean, short sighted stuff. However, as our pal Jeff once famously said, life finds a way.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Oh, Jeff Goldblum. Not our research associate, Jeff with a.

[Ben Bullen]

G. Oh, different Jeff. Yes.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Yeah, I remember that part From Jurassic Park 3 the road home.

[Ben Bullen]

I love that look. The rigid public confines of Victorian society, the rules of the road for public behavior, they could not stop people from hanging out, trying to circumvent these very narrow scopes of society.

[Noel Brett Brown]

That's right. In which they were placed as teased at the top. This is an episode about the moral strictures and all of these hardline rules and the ways people figured out to flout them and flout each other.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes. Yes.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Victory in secret.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh my gosh. This is so fun. Because it's conspiratorial, right? People are hitting on each other in code. It's so.

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[Ben Bullen]

Victorians would still find a way to flirt with one another and even do a little outside school stuff if flouting each other.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Have a little tryst, run off for a little secret dalliance right in the countryside.

[Ben Bullen]

If two young lovers were caught flirting with each other, they could become outcast from the society of the day.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Usually.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, usually. By the way, this is a pretty misogynistic hierarchy at the time. So a dude would do something bad, and then it was the woman, the female partner, who was punished, of course. So it was very high stakes when people were flirting, and you had to be very careful, especially if you are a pressed member of the society at the time. A woman, a female identifying person. You would have to. To speak in code or convey your messages secretly. And this is where we get to one of my favorite parts of one of my favorite puns from your research, Ren. Talk to the fan. The lost art of Victorian fan language.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Because the face ain't listening. Or it definitely is listening and looking out for signs that you read my code and that you want to get busy. You know, Ben, I think part of the reason that Victor. I mean, this is maybe stating the obvious, but the Victorian era is so romanticized is because secret love is so much more sultry, you know, than like, out in the open love, like forbidden love, you know, I only kiss you when it's dangerous. Well, there's so many. I mean, this isn't really my wheelhouse, but if I'm not mistaken, there are definitely a lot of pretty, you know, sultry novelizations of this era and the types of little trysts that some of these very mannered folks would have.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, there. There are entire novels about this that are in the western canon, like Silas Marner, for instance. And what I love about it is the. The idea that something as simple as one person touching the top of another person's hand, that's like skin.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Oh, yeah, Super.

[Ben Bullen]

That's. That's super racy. And it's because of the oppression of women. If we're being honest, in the VICT era, people living under this rain, women couldn't. Like you couldn't blow out a candle around a dude because you might, you know, you might be making the wrong face.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Purse your lips a little too much. Yeah, man. I didn't. I didn't know this, but Ren pointed out that Victorians are who kind of invented the idea of light and dark meat, lest they have to refer to a leg Or a breast and, you know, get titillated or be titillated.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You also can't say that you're going to bed at the end of the night, because if a dude hears you, they might imagine certain things.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Your negligee, perhaps.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, my gosh, I can picture the ankle.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Your dressing gown.

[Ben Bullen]

This is so gross. This is crazy. I wish Key and Peele did a sketch about this.

[Noel Brett Brown]

They've definitely done some kind of mannered, kind of, you know, satires, but I'm having a hard time thinking of one in particular. And maybe I'm making it up. Maybe I'm Mandela affecting it. But, you know, think Romeo and Juliet. You know, the idea of forbidden love that society will not allow because you're from different classes or different sides of town or different, you know, social groups.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, do you hear the stakes escalating? You know, one of the closest bonds people can have is the sharing of a secret. That is true. And so now we have very high stakes conspiratorial communication because we don't want to be repressed by Victorian society. This is where we enter tactics like fan language. All right, let's lay it out.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Okay, so we talked about the kind of very strict hierarchy which involves different classes, different income levels, and people in the lower classes typically dressed a little bit more comfortably. Whereas women in high society had to take great pains, suffer for fashion to the most extreme degrees to maintain this kind of, like, you know, image of an hourglass waist and you know, covering their faces with veils sometimes and elaborate hats and umbrellas and fans.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Have you ever been hot? Have you ever found yourself in, like, humid weather? Allow us to introduce you to the concept of fan. It's a. It's a cool thing. You can wave with your hand on your face or your body parts to generate wind, make your own wind. What, an invention that will mitigate temperature? Yes. If you haven't heard of fans before, oh, my gosh, they're pretty cool. We're big fans.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Stop it. I can't allow it.

[Ben Bullen]

All right, all right, all right, all right, all right. So this is a physical device, and the reason we're giving it such a spotlight here is because it points the observer toward the face and it needs the hand to work. So there is this entire nonverbal nomenclature or. Or coded language that comes about with the use of a fan. Especially if you are a single, well to do woman, an aristocratic person. If you want to attract a husband of, as Emily Bronte would say, quality, then you are Kind of bound again, by your social strictures of the day. I'm going to say it. People were wearing a lot of clothes.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Oh, for sure. And it was pretty unpleasant for women in particular. I mean, dudes definitely wore, like, you know, multiple layers of, like, a suit and vest and all of that.

[Ben Bullen]

A cumberbug for some reason.

[Noel Brett Brown]

But it was nothing compared to what women of the age had to wear. That included that tightly cinched corset to give that appearance of a perfect kind of hourglass figure. Not to mention layers on top of that, petticoats and all of that. And then these hoop skirts, crinoline, which is like essentially these wire frames that these skirts were draped around.

[Ben Bullen]

Bbl.

[Noel Brett Brown]

I don't think I know what that means.

[Ben Bullen]

Brazilian butt lift.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Oh, for sure. That's right. It did give them a little bit of a hump back there, for sure. And they also had to wear, like, lacy gloves. And they would also carry these fans when it was hotter months. And there is something kind of coy about peering over and gently kind of batting your fan as you make cutie eyes at a eligible bachelor.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. And these people who are of this echelon in society, they have to wear, essentially, uniforms, and they're heavy. There are so many layers. It's not cold all the time, and it's restricting their mobility. For anybody who wants to learn more about the history of fashion, please, please check out our good friend Holly Fry's work just on podcast. And in general, Holly.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Yeah, there's a history of fashion podcast that she peed for a long time called Dressed. I'm not sure if it's publishing new episodes anymore, but they're all out there with two fashion historians whose names escape me. But it's really, really, really good. And they would certainly talk about this stuff in depth.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes. So let's exercise empathy. You are a lady of means, right? You are single. You are in the upper echelon of Victorian society. You have to wear all this brouhaha, and it's a pain in the keister to sit down, to sit up. It's hot. There's no air conditioning. You have to go outside for a breath of fresh air. How do you mitigate the temperature around you? Again, we introduce you to fan, and fan was a practical, and still is, a practical way to beat the heat. But it also became a conspiratorial means of communicating whether or not you thought someone was dapper for sure.

[Noel Brett Brown]

And we'll just run through a handful of them because they're so, so Sneaky. It kind of runs the gamut. They're literal gestures that mean very specific things. And I gotta wonder, kind of, this kind of stuff had to evolve organically, you know, where people just sort of observed and picked up on these actions. But we've got a list here from an 1866 write up in Castles magazine that decodes some of these mysterious actions. Carrying the fan in your right hand in front of your face, for example, meant follow me.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Letting a fan folded rest on your left cheek meant no to something. However, if you let it rest on your right cheek, it meant yes.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Oh, it's like Ouija board rules. Drawing the fan across your eye, kind of like that gesture I mentioned earlier. Sort of peeking over the top of it meant you were sorry. And closing the fan meant. Which meant that you would like a word in private.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, we've all seen Downton Abbey. It's also one of the weird ones is drawing the folded fan, or I guess unfolded across the cheek means I love you.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Ben Bullen]

But also we could do. We could do an entire sketch about this, about fan language in the modern day, because some of it gets so ridiculous. You put the handle of the fan to your lips, like, kiss me.

[Noel Brett Brown]

One of my favorites is signifying that you're engaged by a quick fan blast across the face. Yeah. If you drop the fan, you are friend zoning that person instantly.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, we're done. Mic drop, we're done. Well, I'll see you on Facebook. And if you shut the fan, you have changed. You know, this is so weird. You have changed.

[Noel Brett Brown]

What the hell does that even mean? I think it's.

[Ben Bullen]

I think it's being diplomatic. I think.

[Noel Brett Brown]

I think maybe so.

[Ben Bullen]

Shutting a fan was probably more often used to signify the end of a conversation is probably what was actually happening.

[Noel Brett Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes you'll show it to me. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers also seem to like keeping our money.

[Noel Brett Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brett Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

That's mintmobile.com ridiculous.

[Noel Brett Brown]

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[Noel Brett Brown]

So where do you go next? Back to ebay.

[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brett Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brett Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brett Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brett Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

But let's say, Noel, someone doesn't possess a fan.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Or they do and they want to just double down and to have another avenue for their cheeky communiques. They could do that with postage stamp flirtations. Yeah, they would. Like I. This was. They would place this on a letter when they sent it. So, like, the position of the stamp would indicate. Why didn't they just write it in the letter? I don't know.

[Ben Bullen]

Well, it's how you slide into the DMs.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Yeah. I still don't quite understand though. Like, these are on letters for sure. I don't understand.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, it's a. The placement of the postage stamp was a way to bypass the fact that you are hitting on someone who may already be part of a larger family. Right.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Okay. And their letter might be intercepted. This is sort of a between the lines kind of thing in case somebody's suspicious or jealous wife got a hold of this letter.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. So you leave a letter to your potential paramour and you know that the entire family, Darcy, the entire estate may open the letter and read it and have a good laugh. So you want to get past that by positioning the stamp to reveal a secret message. So the letter itself might sound innocuous. Right. But the placement of the stamp is a conspiratorial code. It's kind of like hobo.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Sure, I was thinking the same thing. And a lot of these. Hobo code. By the way, there's an episode we've done on stuff that I want you to know about it. I actually have a hobo code tattoo on my right wrist. But they were these symbols that were left by traveler. Traveling folk, you know, riding the rails and all of that, and into modern times, actually at various locations to indicate either a hospitable environment or, you know, something negative. Maybe a sheriff that has it in for traveling, a place that will feed you perhaps, et cetera. All these little symbols. And that lexicon developed over time as people kind of picked up on those meanings, as did these fan gestures and this kind of postage stamp flirtation. So let's run through a few of these as well. Upside down stamp on the top left corner.

[Ben Bullen]

I love you.

[Noel Brett Brown]

I love you. Yeah, I love you. Same corner, but crosswise means my heart is another's.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, my gosh. Drop the face, man. Right on that one. If you put the stamp upside down on the right corner, it's a bad sign. It says, get out of my DMs. I don't want to talk to you. Don't write to me anymore.

[Noel Brett Brown]

You're dead to me. On the flip side, in the middle at the right hand, edge means write immediately. I'm burning with desire.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, people are so weird. People have been doing DM direct messaging way before social media. There's the friend zone thing on the top corner at the right. That placement of the postage stamp, allegedly, according to Cassell's magazine, meant I wish your friendship.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Yep, yep. Another. Another friend zoning. And the same, but upside down, indicated that you were already engaged. You'll remember the quick, brisk fanning. So these were, you know, important details to be able to communicate. I gu. Maybe kind of head off. Trouble at the pass.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, we're really vibing. I have a girlfriend, though.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Sorry, but that doesn't mean the flirtation for its own sake isn't also fun. I think it's important to remember that, like, these are not always people that are searching for their life mate. They are just trying to get a little extra on the side. And sometimes the flirtation itself might be giving them something that they weren't getting at home. Home. You know, it doesn't have to result in, you know, sexual activity.

[Ben Bullen]

Right. It doesn't have to be consummation. It's a dance, you know, it's a. It's a validation. It's acknowledgement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And don't forget to stop and smell the roses. It turns out that Victorian society was so repressive that people found multiple means of sort of. Of passing notes in class and whispering to each other. Victorians of a certain socioeconomic status had a keen interest in botany. And I love that we're pointing out one of my favorite sources on the Internet, the public domain review.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Yeah, that's a good one. They write at a time when many feelings were discouraged and repressed. Flowers, whether sense, singly, or in complicated arrangements, communicated the incommunicable. I always think of, you know, when you have these sort of maybe tales of intrigue around this era. Leaving a single red rose, you know, on a bench or something, as like a sign of your love or even just like the Scarlet Pimpernel or something. It could be a way to communicate with actual, like, co conspirators who are trying to bring down the government.

[Ben Bullen]

This is so nuts, man, because I actually have the book. Public domain review is referencing the language of flowers. I love obscure reference works.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Totally.

[Ben Bullen]

And the language of flowers follows the Western symbolism of various types of flowers. When to give a flower for what occasion, what does it mean? Is just like, fan language. I only have this in full disclosure because I needed it for a fantasy novel I was writing. I had to figure out which flowers a character gives at a pivotal moment. Anyway, I love obscure reference works. And this comes from a real thing. I can't believe it, dude. For example, people would send bluebells to mean kindness. And obviously roses represented love. Have you ever given one of your lovers a dozen roses?

[Noel Brett Brown]

Wow, Ben, that's very forward of you to ask. Yeah. I'm blushing. What's wrong with me? I'm 41 years old. I don't know, man. I've never really been one for the. It's just a little cheesy, kind of. To me, it feels. It's a little, you know, it's just kind of dated for a reason. Some people really like roses. Some people, I think, find them a little cloy. And I think I might be one of those. Maybe I'm just not a romantic.

[Ben Bullen]

Where are we? You're a very romantic guy. Where are we at with apple blossoms? This was a new one to me.

[Noel Brett Brown]

The apple blossom jeans and the boots with the fur.

[Ben Bullen]

Nailed it.

[Noel Brett Brown]

No, I didn't. Apple blossoms were meant to signify the object of one's affection. And I like this one. Dahlias. I always think of the Black Dahlia murders symbolizing just instability, which tracks for that story.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Yeah. And if you are a young guy, again, this is very scoped in. This is something the upper crust is doing at this time in the Victorian age. If you're a young guy of means and you're looking to get married, start your family, etc. Continue your lineage, you will send an apple blossom, which says, I like you more than the other people I'm hitting on.

[Noel Brett Brown]

So more than just an object of your affection, you are sort of making a soft commitment, soft diplomacy. But there's a tier up from that where you really lock in.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah.

[Noel Brett Brown]

And that is, of course, the red rose yes.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes. You nailed it. If you are super liking the object of your affection, as you said, Noel, you send a rose or you send, get this, a purple violet to communicate. This is from Smithsonian Gardens. The giver's thoughts are occupied with love about the recipient. So a step down from a rose, you send a purple violence violet and you're just going, mm, I like you.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Exactly. Shrinking violet. That's a thing, right? Isn't that someone that's sort of timid?

[Ben Bullen]

I've heard the phrase. Yeah. The big thing is flower language for flirting was just like the postage stamp language. It could be used to convey unfortunate messages as well.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Right, Right. For example, if you got a yellow carnation and you were a young man after sending an apple blossom or one of these other, you know, roses, signifying your commitment to your would be beloved, if you got a yellow carnation back, it was. You were being rejected. That would be. Yeah, that would be devastating. And if a dude in return received an ivy leaf. So there's a little difference. He was considered friend zone. So maybe. So you're saying there's a chance.

[Ben Bullen]

You're saying there's a chance. Chance. However, if you get straw in return in this flower code or this. I guess we should just call it this botany code, then it means the person you are seeking to marry is interested in going a step further.

[Noel Brett Brown]

It's so procedural. It's also businesslike. Isn't it weird? It is a little weird. And that step further would be like marriage.

[Ben Bullen]

Uh huh. Yeah.

[Noel Brett Brown]

I guess that means there probably could be opposite situations where a dude got the straw bag was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm not ready for all that. I was hoping for a purple violet or whatever.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, I just said middle of the.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Road response might be.

[Ben Bullen]

This is all moving too fast. Let me check where I should put and place this post.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Yes, my documents. These are just a few. I mean, it gets pretty elaborate. And Wren points out, like, where were they getting all of these different varieties of flowers? It's so elaborate. But this was a time of great wealth. And it also seems like these type of flowers would often be, you know, maybe expensive to cultivate and to have just for these, these messages. So, you know, you couldn't really communicate in flower code if you were in the lower class.

[Ben Bullen]

You know what I bet was?

[Noel Brett Brown]

Weeds or something.

[Ben Bullen]

You know what I bet was A crazy flex sending someone a pineapple apple. Because this is back in the day when people would just rent pineapples.

[Noel Brett Brown]

Oh, of course. I guess this was roughly in that during that time. Yeah. I don't know if you've been watching Severance, but there's a really funny moment in one of the most recent episodes involving pineapples. So let's leave it at that. But, Ben, I mean, you've got so much more to cover. We're going to get into calling cards, you know, and that's the history of that. But what do you say that we take a pause here and jump to a second part of this series for some more awesome history of flirting?

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, my gosh. Are you asking me for a second date, Noah?

[Noel Brett Brown]

I am.

[Ben Bullen]

I am.

[Noel Brett Brown]

I forget what kind of flower I'm supposed to send you, but it's the 21st century. We can just talk about it. It's cool. We're on a podcast. No secrets here, my friend.

[Ben Bullen]

We can't wait for you to join us, folks, in our ongoing exploration of flirting and flirting in the Victorian era. Big, big thanks to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. We slide in his DMs all the time.

[Noel Brett Brown]

They have us.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, Big, big thanks to our research associate, Redden Fest. Redden Fair. Big thanks, of course, to AJ Bahamas Jacobs the Puzzler. And I stumbled while we were recording because I remembered a guy who. Who's very close to my heart. What kind of flowers do you think Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quister, would send us, Noel?

[Noel Brett Brown]

A black rose? Something very sinister.

[Ben Bullen]

Why is he like that?

[Noel Brett Brown]

Why is he this way? It's just who he is. Huge thanks to Christopher Osiotes and Eve's Jeffcoats here at Spirit. Alex Williams, who composed our theme, Max Williams, the best. Max A Billion Williams. And of course you, Ben. My, my, my number one Crush podcast.

[Ben Bullen]

Crush. Oh, shucks. You say that to everyone. Thanks to you, man. Check your mail. There are some flowers for you. But look at the stamp first.

[Noel Brett Brown]

I hope it's an edible arrangement. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite show.

[Carissa Thompson]

The Unshakables Podcast is kicking off season two with an episode you won't want to miss. Join host Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business, as he welcomes a very special guest, chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. Hear about the challenges facing small businesses and some of the, oh, moments Jamie has overcome. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Chase Mobile app is available. Available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. J.P. morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 J.P. morgan Chase & Co.

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