Victorians Got Super Weird With Flirting, Part Two: Courtship and Calling Cards

Summary

Ridiculous History: Victorians Got Super Weird With Flirting, Part Two: Courtship and Calling Cards

Release Date: February 6, 2025

In the second installment of the "Victorians Got Super Weird With Flirting" series, hosts Ben Bolan and Noel Brown delve deeper into the intricate and often bizarre methods of courtship practiced during the Victorian era. This episode, produced by iHeartPodcasts, uncovers the elaborate social codes and secretive practices that governed romantic interactions in a time of strict societal norms and gender roles.

Introduction to Victorian Flirting Methods

Ben opens the discussion by reflecting on part one, where the hosts explored fan codes and postage stamp codes as means of flirtation. Noel builds on this by introducing the concept of escort cards, a sophisticated evolution of the traditional calling card used exclusively by the aristocracy.

“The flirtation acquaintance or escort card. They were a purposeful kind of sexy play on the calling card,” Noel Brown explains [04:19].

Escort Cards: The Victorian Love Letters

Escort cards served as discreet tools for expressing romantic interest. Unlike standard calling cards, which were more formal and business-like, escort cards contained subtle cues and messages tailored for romantic purposes. These cards often featured ornate designs and clever wordplay to convey intentions without overtly breaching societal decorum.

“Escort cards were often used to encourage that kind of secrecy that people really like in flirtation,” Ben Bolan notes [09:01].

The Role of Chaperones and Social Gatekeepers

In an era where young women were typically accompanied by chaperones, usually family members or servants, direct romantic advances were heavily restricted. Noel elaborates on how escort cards allowed men to express interest without the woman needing to directly respond in the presence of their chaperone.

“A young man could opt to slip his crush an escort card and in turn then she could respond via the signal detailed in the card or return a card of her own,” Noel Brown states [10:10].

Subtle Communication and Coded Language

The conversation shifts to the nuanced language and symbols used in escort cards. The hosts discuss how these cards incorporated double entendres and coded messages to communicate intentions discreetly.

“They would of borderline greeting card-esque messages, which maybe more co-opted from this type of language,” Noel Brown observes [11:24].

Connection to Modern Culture and Media

Ben brings a contemporary twist by referencing American Psycho and its protagonist, Patrick Bateman, to illustrate how coded language in courtship has permeated modern media, albeit with a dark twist.

“Sounds like a Patrick Bateman pickup line. Let’s get acquainted for fun and results,” Ben Bolan quips [11:27].

Escort Cards and Queer Communication

A significant portion of the episode addresses how escort cards may have served as a covert communication method within the queer community during the Victorian era. Noel highlights the parallels between escort cards and later LGBTQ+ communication methods, such as the handkerchief codes of the 1970s.

“These escort cards may have carried purposeful typos and shout-outs as a way of communicating with one another in a time where this kind of thing would have been completely verboten,” Noel Brown explains [20:17].

Modern Implications and Legacy

The hosts draw connections between Victorian flirting codes and modern systems of coded communication used by various cultures worldwide. Ben shares a personal anecdote about accidental miscommunication while courting in Guatemala, underscoring the enduring complexity of non-verbal and coded courtship methods.

“These systems of coded communication can still be quite unfamiliar to many Americans, but they are prevalent in cultures around the world,” Ben Bolan reflects [23:07].

Victorian Classifieds as Early Personal Ads

Noel introduces the concept of Victorian classified ads as the precursor to modern personal ads and "missed connections." These ads provided a platform for individuals to seek romantic partners discreetly, bypassing the need for direct interaction in the presence of chaperones.

“These personal ads were dead drops because the person replying to you, you wouldn't know who was reading it,” Ben Bolan discusses [33:03].

Impact on Gender Roles and Feminism

The episode touches on the demographic imbalance in Victorian Great Britain, where women outnumbered men by over half a million. This imbalance spurred a reevaluation of gender roles and contributed to the early feminist movement, advocating for women's rights in the workplace and beyond.

“This was seen as a genuine crisis and forced the Victorians to kind of re-evaluate their understanding of gender roles and led to something of a feminist movement,” Noel Brown states [35:57].

Queer Relationships and Social Acceptance

Ben and Noel explore instances of queer relationships during the Victorian era, highlighting how escort cards and other coded methods provided a semblance of privacy and safety for same-sex couples. They reference historical images depicting close platonic relationships that subtly hinted at romantic bonds, challenging the strictly heteronormative narratives of the time.

“These women lived together and raised him as his parents. It was not something that they were hiding per se, or ashamed of,” Noel Brown recounts [38:56].

Conclusion: The Irony of Repression and Desire

In wrapping up, the hosts reflect on the paradoxical nature of Victorian repression, which often led to more elaborate and, in their view, "weirder" methods of expressing desire. They argue that strict societal norms didn't quell romantic or sexual expression but instead pushed it into more creative and sometimes more intense forms.

“Prohibition very rarely works out the way its imposers intend. This even affected Victorian furniture... but it's another example of how Prohibition very rarely works out the way its imposers intend,” Ben Bolan concludes [39:36].

Final Thoughts and Teasers for Future Episodes

Ben, Noel, and producer Max Williams share a light-hearted sign-off, thanking their contributors and hinting at future topics that will continue to explore the quirky and unconventional aspects of historical social practices.

“We're super mature. And we're so happy that you have tuned in and joined us for part two of the Ridiculous History of Victorian Flirting,” Ben Bolan remarks [43:53].

Key Takeaways

• Escort Cards were a sophisticated method for Victorian aristocrats to discreetly express romantic interest amidst strict social norms.

• Chaperones played a significant role in regulating courtship, making indirect communication methods like escort cards essential.

• Coded Language and Symbols in flirting fostered secrecy and subtlety, laying groundwork for future coded communication systems in various cultures.

• Queer Relationships utilized these codes for discreet communication in a repressive society, highlighting early forms of LGBTQ+ expression.

• Victorian Courtship Practices have left a lasting legacy on modern dating and communication methods, illustrating the enduring creativity in human social interactions.

This episode offers a fascinating glimpse into how societal constraints can shape and even magnify the ways humans connect and express affection, blending historical analysis with engaging anecdotes and modern parallels.

Transcript

[Ben Bolan]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you as always so much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the number one guy who sets our hearts aflutter. We are so Twitter painted for our super producer, Mr. Max Williams.

[Noel Brown]

He's our number one. Number two. Is that a thing? I kind of like it. You're more than number two. You're number one in our hearts.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. For some reason, number one number two makes me think of. I'm gonna say it. My favorite poop. You know, that's right.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. That's Max. No, no, no. Everyone's favorite poop.

[Ben Bolan]

Which, it's funny, this is unrelated to anything, but I saw Quite recently a 4 year old Absolutely burned down an adult with the most vicious insult the four year old could think of.

[Noel Brown]

Ooh, poopy head, poopy face.

[Ben Bolan]

She said it was someone who said, oh, you know, don't. I'm not going to give names because I'll get in trouble. But oh, don't you want to come over here and you know, give auntie a hug? And then she said, no, you're a poop. And she said it was like just an old poop. She said it was such vim and vinegar.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

Like you could tell she hadn't learned the word MF yet.

[Noel Brown]

You know, it's funny, dude, that, that is an insult. I guess it makes me think of like I Love Lucy where they go, oh, you old poo, you know?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Very light hearted insults.

[Ben Bolan]

And sometimes light hearted insults are a part of flirting.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, you master of freaking segues. You picture this, you're halfway through a DIY car fix, tools scattered everywhere, and boom. You realize you're missing a part.

[Ben Bolan]

It's okay because, you know, whatever it is, it's on ebay.

[Noel Brown]

They've got everything. Brakes, headlights, cold air intakes. Whatever you need.

[Ben Bolan]

And it's guaranteed to fit. Which means no more crossing your fingers and hoping you ordered the right thing.

[Noel Brown]

All the parts you need at prices you'll love.

[Ben Bolan]

Guaranteed to fit every time.

[Noel Brown]

Ebay Things people love.

[Max Williams]

Breaking news. T Mobile Network outperforms expectations in all sectors because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com KeepAndSwitch up to four lines of your virtual prepaid card allow 15 days qualifying unlocked device, credit service port in 90 plus days device and eligible carrier and timely redemption. Required card has no cash access and expires in six. Tired of restless nights? At Leesa, they know good sleep is essential for mental, physical and emotional health. From memory foam mattresses to hybrids that keep you cool all night long, Leesa's mattresses offer exceptional comfort and support with free delivery and 100 nights to try out your mattress in the comfort of your home. Go to leesa.com today and get 20% off all mattresses and two free pillows. That's L-E-E-S-A.com and use code iheart for an extra $50 off your no matter who you are, there's a Lisa just for you.

[Noel Brown]

Lowe's knows that free is just better. That's why Milo's Rewards is free.

[Max Williams]

To join as a member, you earn points towards Milo's money on eligible purchases, get exclusive free gifts and earn free.

[Noel Brown]

Shipping at silverkeys status, all on top of weekly member only deals.

[Max Williams]

Don't wait.

[Noel Brown]

Join Milo's Rewards for free today and start saving more Lowe's we help you save loyalty programs subject to terms and conditions. Details@lowe's.com Terms subject to change.

[Ben Bolan]

Well, that's Mr. Noel Brown. I am Ben Bolan. This is part two of the Ridiculous history of specifically Victorian flirting. Noel, what did we learn in part one?

[Noel Brown]

So much. We learned how to flirt via fan code and postage stamp code, sending little sexy missives through the mail and in person by fluttering our fan implement.

[Ben Bolan]

There's that one specific signal you can use. It was so silly. You put your fan on your right ear and it tells someone you have changed.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, that's right. You have indeed changed. It's sort of the Victorian version of looksmaxing. Or what do they call it? Mogging and. Or oh geez, what's the other word for it? When you kind of mock your cheeks in mogging, it's looksmaxing. Mogging is another word for it. It's gen alpha stuff where you kind of suck your cheeks in and sort of make that blue steel face like from Zoolander and sort of stroke your cheeks, you know, with two four. Four fingers and a thumb.

[Ben Bolan]

Okay. Like, am I doing this right?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. You got to stuff your cheeks in a little more though.

[Ben Bolan]

Make.

[Noel Brown]

Make, you know, really show us those cheekbones more straight up duck lips. Not duck lips. It's more like. Yeah, yeah, it is. A little more. A little on the duck lip side Yep, you got it there, Ben.

[Ben Bolan]

Okay. We're trying. And you'll have to trust us because we are. Are an audio podcast.

[Noel Brown]

We look ridicul.

[Ben Bolan]

There's a whole history to it. We're also excited to explore this with you folks. We have our own. Maximil and I have our own personal ridiculous histories with flirting. I had a story just behind the curtain on part one that upon reconsideration, I asked us to pull it from the air because. Oh, yeah, well, it was a little saucy.

[Noel Brown]

That's. That one's just for us. But we get to keep that particular flavor. It's a little sauce in the family.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, it's okay, as they say.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. You know, we can maybe do a little low key. It was basically just a description of you being flirted upon by a lady during a social interaction. And you maybe not until we discussed it after the fact, didn't realize quite how horny a flirtation it was.

[Ben Bolan]

And Beanie weenies were involved.

[Noel Brown]

That's true. It was, use your imagination, folks.

[Ben Bolan]

Pretty forward, actually. Yeah, yeah. Well, win some, lose some. The course of true love never did run smooth. If somehow you are the person who is the subject of that story. No love lost. And if you happen to be hearing this, you know, what's up, girl? So anyway, we'll leave it there. Our first part of part two here continues with Victorian flirtation methods because for many people in the era, for women in particular, society was so oppressive, you couldn't just come out and say, what's up, Donathan Esquire?

[Noel Brown]

No, you had.

[Ben Bolan]

There were.

[Noel Brown]

There was a certain very rigidly codified decorum that involved things like calling cards and, you know, obviously this would make its way into business culture. I think that's sort of the origin of that thing. If we'd have like, you know, your name and business and address and phone number and appropriate, you know, contact information. But in the Victorian era, these were referred to as escort cards. And Ben, it also reminds me of another type of card that happened later that we talk about in previous episodes, the dance card. The idea of my dance card being full and only having a certain number of slots for a fella to cut a rug with you at certain, you know, cotillion type events. But we're getting ahead of ourselves there. What in fact, was the Victorian escort card or flirtation card or acquaintance card?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah, this is. This is great. And I love that callback, Noel, to the dance card, because I think we both always wondered whether that was a real thing.

[Noel Brown]

Very real. Very real. It's like a library book, like lending card, you know, it's for dancing.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah. For the ballroom. That's a great comparison as well.

[Noel Brown]

Honestly, in Victorian time, dancing might have been considered scandalous.

[Ben Bolan]

And so if the business card or the calling card is the G rated thing, then the dance card would have been the PG13 thing. And this is trending toward R rated. The flirtation acquaintance or escort card. They were a purposeful kind of sexy play on the calling card. And you would, if you were. This was only for members of the aristocracy, of course, because who could afford to have this many different specific printed cards.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. The lettering alone and the card stock, it's bone, perhaps with a nice seraphy text.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, gosh. And the paperweight. So this is the issue here. Escort cards would be like a very. What we would see as a very unsexy Valentine's Day card almost. Because you would come by and you would say, you know, is Dame Alderwein home? And they would, you know, the butler or whomever would say, regretfully not. And often the aristocracy, the caller would realize they weren't home and they would say, well, until that scrumptious little toffee.

[Noel Brown]

Toffee trollop. No, no, that's too far.

[Ben Bolan]

Trollops. Too far.

[Noel Brown]

Very, very far.

[Ben Bolan]

What's that thing that. Oh, tell that scrumptious little strawberry trifle that Lord Butterball has stopped by for a visit. And then they would.

[Noel Brown]

This is of course, all in Lord Butterball's head, because those words would not have been uttered aloud to the chaperone who was basically the gatekeeper of said lady person.

[Ben Bolan]

Right. Instead, he would have made, you know, like a stiff upper lip sniff and thanked the butler and then dropped his calling card. But his calling card, the dame would find out later, was actually his acquaintance or escort card. And escort cards were often used to encourage that kind of secrecy that people really like in flirtation. Because, you know, if you're a young woman, you've almost always got your chaperone.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. Which could be the butler in this situation, which could be a family member, a brother, you know, someone that again, would kind of gatekeep this young woman to make sure that she was not up to anything untoward with a fella. So a young man could opt to slip his crush an escort card and in turn then she could respond via the signal detailed in the card or return a card of her own in response. And you're absolutely right with the Valentine's comparison, because they would of borderline greeting card esque messages, which maybe was more co opted from this type of language, you know, as a joke, but things like may I have the pleasure of seeing you home this evening? Or something a little more straight to the point like let's get acquainted for fun and results.

[Ben Bolan]

That is such, AKA what a child.

[Noel Brown]

What are these said results, Ben?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, they have to. They have to be a child. That's what they're talking about. But also to your subtle American Psycho reference earlier, it sounds like a Patrick Bateman pickup line. Let's get acquainted for fun and results.

[Noel Brown]

In Bateman's case, results might be your bloody corpse.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, untimely demise. Right, So a quick tangent here just for film buffs. I'm sure you've run into this too, Noel and Max, have you? So I've read the book. Right. By Brett Easton Ellis, I want to say, and I.

[Noel Brown]

Absolutely pornographic, by the way. Not for the faint of heart. The movie is PG13 in comparison.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, yes, very good point. And the thing that is not clear in either the novel nor in the film, particularly in the film, I think, is whether Bateman is actually doing any of those horrific acts of violence and.

[Noel Brown]

Whether or not he gets caught. A lot of, you know, the book is in the film. Definitely a satire. Tire of the excesses of 1980s Wall street culture and just the absolute kind of vacuousness of people in that strata. And the idea being that he is or is not actually doing these things, if he is, that people are so aloof and up their own keisters that they're just not even noticing because no one's paying attention to anybody else.

[Ben Bolan]

Ah, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Max Williams]

I'm.

[Ben Bolan]

I'm wondering though, and it looks. Where do you fall, Ben, whether or not he actually did these things? Yeah, I'm still, I'm still wrestling with it because there are a few. There are a few moments, especially in the film, where it seems that he's really doing something. Like when he has to wash his sheets in the. At the laundromat. Right. And they say there are some stains. That's an outside person.

[Noel Brown]

Unsightly. Yes.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, but that's. That, that's so weird, the last note on this, because I know we have to get to it. You know, Patrick Bateman in American Psycho looks a little bit like Josh Clark.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, I can see that just a tad. Great bone structure, by the way. Great cheekbones.

[Ben Bolan]

Very.

[Noel Brown]

Looks maxing.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes. Very similar mouth. I think about people's mouths a lot, which is what I would put on my acquaintance card.

[Noel Brown]

You got a pretty mouth, which you definitely do. Ben. Another thing on this particular oh yeah, of course you get great bone structure too.

[Max Williams]

At Ameca Insurance, we know it's more than just a car. It's the two door coupe that was there for your first drive, the hatchback that took you cross country and back, and the minivan that tackles the weekly carpool for the cars you couldn't live without. Trust Amica Auto Insurance Amica Empathy is our best policy. Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and they're all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up [e-mail] that's o d o.

[Unknown]

O.Com now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skin care simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types and it's designed to work as a complete skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum has the power of Melonleaf stem cell technology. It's melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just 49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All of that available@meaningful beauty.com this ain't.

[Max Williams]

The little itty bitty teeny tiny bowl. This is Super Bowl 59. Get in on the action at DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of Super Bowl 59. Scoring touchdowns is key to hoisting the trophy and you have a shot to to score big by betting on them at DraftKings Sportsbook, the number one place to bet touchdowns, new DraftKings customers can bet $5 to get $200 in bonus bets instantly. Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app and use Code Bobby Sports. That's Code Bobby Sports for new customers to get $200 in bonus bets instantly. When you bet just five bucks only on DraftKings sportsbook, the crown is yours. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER in New York, call 877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny4six in Connecticut. Help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Please play responsibly on behalf of Boot Hill casino in Resort, Kansas. 21. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction.

[Noel Brown]

Void.

[Max Williams]

In Ontario, new customers only. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see DKNG Co Audio.

[Noel Brown]

On this acquaintance card that our wonderful Ren Fair Ren Fest Jones supplied us with. It's got the let's get acquainted for fun and results and then makes the, you know, weird flex of I am a Millionaire's only Son Chad.

[Ben Bolan]

This has to be a joke.

[Noel Brown]

Not married, still looking for someone to love. And then there's a big old open space that is wrapped around this kind of ribbon that spans the length of the card or the width of the card. And on each side, on the left side, there's a gentleman with a cane and a top hat and his fine, you know, coat, sharp, sharply dressed sitting. And on the other side is a lady with her parasol and, you know, petticoats and a ruffly hat that probably.

[Ben Bolan]

Has a huge pin in it just in case the fight.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, check out our episode on Hat Pin Warriors. You know, what was it, the Wolf Whistlers or the Catcallers? That was it. They had to defend themselves against these rascals. I love the mashers. I love the separation that this line that's available for writing a particular message is giving between these two. There is this like, will they, won't they kind of sexual tension just communicated on the card alone.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes. Yeah. And to be clear, the female character on the right looks to be interested and perhaps admiring the male figure. The male figure, however, is a bit more salacious because he's turned across his left shoulder and he is clearly staring at her posterior.

[Noel Brown]

Her ruffle. Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

Her bustle.

[Noel Brown]

Her bustle indeed. And then at the bottom we've got final little kicker line License to knock and butt in office hours 7pm to 1am in some young ladies parlor. This is absolutely salacious.

[Ben Bolan]

It does feel like a joke.

[Noel Brown]

Is it a joker? Isn't it, though, you know what I mean? Maybe it's hiding behind the coyness of a. A little joke. But we know what this fellow's up to. We know what this fellow wants.

[Ben Bolan]

I'm joking if you're joking, right? That kind of thing. But also maybe this is a card you hand to someone that you are already acquainted with. You know what I mean?

[Noel Brown]

That's right. There's some cheekiness to all of these. We have another great example that says, I am cj. I can't read it. It's in like a real cursive, handwritten kind of script. Who the. And then a sexy pot bellied little devil are you? So it's a picture.

[Ben Bolan]

So you write your name in here. So this is very stylized font. It says I am. And then you write in your name Cy Young.

[Noel Brown]

He says young. Okay, good. Good eye.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. Who the devil are you? It looks like. Yeah, Young. Or you may get. Wow, man. I know. I have to write your name.

[Noel Brown]

No, no, no. I think you nailed it.

[Ben Bolan]

Who you are.

[Noel Brown]

I think you nailed it with young been. But who the devil indeed are you? Some researchers think that the escort cards may have actually been also used by queer people as a way of subtly communicating with one another in a time where this kind of thing would have been completely verboten, you know, would have been perhaps even subject to prosecution in some cases. So this is a very forward thinking way of folks to communicate with each other and find love outside of the prying eye of the very puritanical public and powers that be.

[Ben Bolan]

Ooh. And there's a conspiratorial aspect to this. This is all a bit conspiratorial, honestly. Definitely. The escort cards in the queer community at the time may have carried purposeful typos and shout out to our research associate, Ren, for finding this. Because these typos may have done one of two things. First, they may have made it appear as though someone was hitting on someone, the same sexual orientation, or I should say sexual identification. But then other times, it may have been like a case where you purposely went to that printer because they've made those cards for that community. And it's in a way that allows you plausible deniability. So you can say, you know that, you know, that foppish dandy, that macaroni, Young Earl Entwistle has said some saucy and unacceptable things about you, milord. And then you would say, well, that's ever so dreadful. He must have misunderstood.

[Noel Brown]

I'll tell you what, this really reminds me of Ben in more modern times is the LGBTQ community's handkerchief codes that were originally originated in the 1970s in New York City as well as I think even there's origins of it that date back to the San Francisco Gold rush era. But it was a way of subtly communicating sexual preference. And I mean, you know, within the queer culture of types of activities, types.

[Ben Bolan]

Of things with a high, high degree.

[Noel Brown]

Of specificity, very high degree of specificity. And it has a lot in common with the fan codes, because it would be like a pink hanky worn on the left or worn on the right meant something very different, depending on the color. And if you can actually go to a website called the Closet professor, where you can see a pretty incredible and in depth spreadsheet of this kind of stuff. So, you know, this Victorian flirting code language really kind of continued to have an impact further into history.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. And you can still see these kind of systems of coded communication in countries throughout the world and cultures throughout the world. In the modern day, it can seem, honestly, quite unfamiliar to many of us Americans or many of us from the United States. But when you travel abroad, you will run into things like this, and sometimes you will accidentally find yourself in situations.

[Noel Brown]

Well, Ben, aren't there still countries in the world where being gay or being queer is illegal?

[Ben Bolan]

Absolutely. That is absolutely true. And then there are also places where it's technically not a crime, but it's still very culturally verboten. One thing I will always remember, and I can tell this story because enough time has passed. I'll keep it very brief. I went into the wrong store when I was living in a small town in Guatemala and I was attempting to. I was attempting to buy a thing for a girl I was courting, and it was a bridal store that also sold flowers. And I don't know if this is a thing for the whole country or if it's just a thing that happened at that store, but I did flower code stuff. I think I asked for the wrong type of flowers. Spanish at the time was not super great. And so the person who was running the place took me to a. I kid you not, a secret back room where they sold things that I was not ready to buy.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, wow, that's. Can you be more specific?

[Ben Bolan]

Off air, not on a family show. But it's very. You know me, man. I'm chill, I'm diplomatic, I'm not trying to step on toes.

[Noel Brown]

You know how to read the room? Absolutely.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, I didn't want to read that room, though.

[Noel Brown]

Is the thing no, no, no, no. But you were forced to, at least to some small degree. Ben, we talked a little bit in part one of this series about how a lot of these codes were relegated to the upper class because a silk fan was accessory. You know, having these types of cards printed was not cheap either. All of the different flowers required to communicate through that kind of code, also not cheap. This was, however, some of the early days of personal ads in newspapers which were a little more affordable to folks who could not participate in some of these more highfalutin methods of low key flirtation.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, classified advertisements. That is something that several of us in the audience today may remember. I wonder, Noel, whether anybody listening, any of our fellow ridiculous historians have ever had the hypothetical pleasure of publishing a classified advertisement. Because when we came along, I think personals and print were still a thing, but a lot more people were already online, like Craigslist or something.

[Noel Brown]

Craigslist. Missed connections. Remember those?

[Ben Bolan]

I loved reading Missed Connections.

[Noel Brown]

Can you tell the folks at home what that is in case they're young?

[Ben Bolan]

Let's double dragon it, Max. You might be a little young for missed connections too. So missed connections in a lot of local papers, but then especially on Craigslist, was your shot in the dark, your needle in the haystack attempt to say that you found someone interesting, you saw them, you may not have even spoken with them, and you were so entranced that you wanted to know more about them, so you tried to describe them. And typically the way people would describe them was all ensconced within that moment that amazed them.

[Noel Brown]

Them. Right, but, but, but absolutely. In a flirtatious fashion. Right?

[Ben Bolan]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It would. It would never be like, I'm angry at you because you cut in line at Blockbuster. It was always like to the woman who cut in line at Blockbuster with the chestnut brown hair and those entrancing green eyes. When I asked if you also liked sugar babies or whatever, what's a candy? A Blockbuster. And there, there are some Milk Duds. Milk Dud. When I asked if you liked Milk Duds, I think you understood what I was really asking.

[Noel Brown]

Can I just say, I found an article from Vox from 2016. I analyzed 10,000 Craigslist missed connections. Here's what I learned by Ilya Blenderman. And just to give you a few examples.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes.

[Noel Brown]

Girl in blue slash white floral dress on N train headed uptown at 9pm Monday. M4W. What is M4W?

[Ben Bolan]

Men for Women or man for women. Thank you.

[Noel Brown]

I'm such a child. Cute brunette girl reading who Shared my table at the bean on Monday. M4W misconnection. So they can really be quite pithy. Like an early example of tweets.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, real quick. I can't believe we found this. Noel, thank you for bringing this. Bringing up this lost Internet artifact, this blast from the past. My favorite is you farted near the produce. You were the hot brunette with curves that farted near the produce this weekend. I was the tall guy next to you that looked over and asked, was that you? You quickly replied, no, wasn't me. You almost seem insulted. I would ask. As the stink grew, you continued to deny your flatulence, but it was evident I tried to get rid of the stench by waving a couple of loaves of bread from La Panier. You proceeded to storm off in an angry manner. You are beautiful. And even though you are a liar and fart like a Clydesdale, I would love to meet up for a drink sometimes.

[Noel Brown]

Ben, what was it? Who was the Ulysses writer that was really into farty ladies?

[Max Williams]

James Joy.

[Noel Brown]

That is so James Joyce. He's looking for a farty princess.

[Ben Bolan]

And Max popped onto the chat for a second. Oh my God. I just had to read that. Thank you, Noel. I forgot about missed connections. I was obsessed with those.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, no, they're very obsession worthy. And you can definitely check out some examples of that if there's a quick cursor to Google. And that Vox article I referenced is incredibly detailed and in depth and sort of like a quintessential analysis of this cultural moment.

[Max Williams]

Every day, our world gets a little more connected, but a little further apart. But then there are moments that remind us to be more human.

[Noel Brown]

Thank you for calling Amica Insurance.

[Ben Bolan]

Hey, I was just in an accident.

[Noel Brown]

Don't worry, we'll get you taken care of.

[Max Williams]

At Amica, we understand that looking out for each other isn't new or groundbreaking.

[Noel Brown]

It's human.

[Max Williams]

Amica Empathy is our best policy. Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected. And each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need, and they're all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up [e-mail]. that's O D O O dot com.

[Unknown]

Now, I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skincare simple and it's loved by by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types. And it's designed to work as a complete skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the amazing youth activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum has the power of melon leaf stem cell technology. It's melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released on of the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful beauty system for just $49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All that available@meaningful beauty.com Picture this.

[Ben Bolan]

You're in the garage, hands covered in grease, just finished tuning up your engine with a part you found on ebay. And you realize, you know what? I could also use new brakes.

[Noel Brown]

So where do you go next? Back to ebay.

[Ben Bolan]

You can find anything there. It's unreal.

[Noel Brown]

Wipers, headlights, even cold air intakes. It's all there.

[Ben Bolan]

And you've got ebay guaranteed fit.

[Noel Brown]

You order a part and if it doesn't fit, send it back. Simple as that.

[Ben Bolan]

Look, DIY fixes can be major. Doesn't matter if it's just maintenance or a major model, you got it.

[Noel Brown]

Especially when things are guaranteed to fit.

[Ben Bolan]

So when you dive into your next car project, start with ebay.

[Noel Brown]

All the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time.

[Ben Bolan]

Ebay, things people love.

[Noel Brown]

But let's talk about the Victorian predecessor to missed connections and the personals ads. I always wondered, but never bothered to look why they're called classified ads. It's pretty obvious in my mind. Classified means secret, you know, government secret stuff. But it just means they're classified into different categories like things for sale, personals, want ads, jobs, and things like that. But yeah, what was the deal with Victorian flirtatious ads?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah, you had. As a man, you had better luck with this option because it was essentially what we would call a dead drop in some other industries. You know how in spy movies you have a dead drop to convey information? You put the message in the trunk of a tree, a certain tree in.

[Noel Brown]

A park A trash bin or something like that as well.

[Ben Bolan]

And so these personal ads, I love the double entendre there of classified or the double meaning. These personal ads were dead drops because the person replying to you, you wouldn't know who was reading it, was anybody who was literate and could get a newspaper. And when they reply to you, it's a one way street for them unless they provide a return address. So there's a level of security there that doesn't really exist when you have the intercession of the chaperone or the intercession of the household staff. It was always kind of improper in the Victorian era for a woman to directly say what she was looking for in a partner. Right. So the missed connections thing didn't really exist at the same level of hilarity maybe arguably, as you would find on Craigslist, but you could place an ad in the paper as a last ditch effort to avoid dying alone. Thanks to our pal Ren for that turn of phrase. And Noel, when we're looking into some of the sources, we found some pretty illuminating examples.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, there's an article that Wren linked us to date, like A Victorian Courtship and Romance in the Victorian Era by Ada Lohan Clark on a website called friendsofdahlnivert Ca, which I believe is a museum. And she actually very cleverly kind of put this in the Tinder format. And it's got a very old Victorian image of a young Lady apparently named Polly, 23, seeking a sensible, good natured husband who is fond of laughing and fun.

[Ben Bolan]

And it makes sense too. I believe in a lot of these advertisements it would be somewhat uncommon to have a photograph published as well, because that would give away your identity. Right. So now if you are young, poly and maybe your household staff and your parents and your relatives are just cracking down and they're mean to you because you're getting the wrong kind of escort or acquaintance cards or the wrong kind of flowers, then you could perhaps sneak away on your own and get this message out to the world. And then maybe the people replying to you would be smart enough to send a letter that did not look overly flirtatious.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. And this would have been less common for women. And there was another phenomenon known as as the redundancy, where women outnumbered men in Great Britain by over half a million. And this was seen as a genuine crisis and forced the Victorians to kind of re evaluate their understanding of gender roles and led to something of a feminist movement that would lead to more focus on women's Rights in the workplace as well as middle class women.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, goatee. And this is where we also see the beginning, or I guess the turn of the conversational corner toward a future episode perhaps on queer identity in the Victorian era, which was very much a thing and very much repressed. Right. And you can see clear evidence of this throughout the historical record. Ren said, in closing, I'm going to leave you with this picture of, quote, two very platonic girlfriends who somehow learned to make do without husbands.

[Noel Brown]

That was another last ditch effort to keep from dying alone was just to move in with a girlfriend. And this picture that you're describing, Ben, one of them is very clearly, almost satirically, it would seem, dressed in men's clothing, like wearing a suit and a corsage. And then the other women seated on kind of a fainting couch is wearing more pirate appropriate women's clothes, and they are kind of in an embrace. I mean, this very much is a, you know, even by today's standards, a very queer forward image.

[Ben Bolan]

They were regarding each other, we could say.

[Noel Brown]

And they were all fondly.

[Ben Bolan]

Right, right. And this reminds me of, you know, that old trope, the old situation where they say, oh, yeah, you know, Aunt Becky never got married, but she lived with her roommate for many, many, many years. Dude.

[Noel Brown]

Even in the 90s, I grew up. And my best friend growing up from elementary school, he had queer parents, two women who lived together and raised him as his parents, of course. And it was not something that they were hiding per se, or ashamed of. I slept over there many, many times. But it just wasn't exactly something that would be considered socially acceptable at the time, publicly. I actually distinctly remember calling in to a local kind of conservative talk radio show as a kid and talking about this, because I heard them kind of being negative about this kind of thing. And I just felt the need to call in and say that my friend had two moms and they were absolutely loving, wonderful parents.

[Ben Bolan]

Nice man. Good on you as young Noel. And let's end with just a few little notes of context to set us off here.

[Noel Brown]

One we teased in part one about chicken.

[Ben Bolan]

Right, right. We mentioned that the idea of white and dark meat does not come from your local chicken joint. It comes from the Victorian era because they were afraid of saying breast and legs at the dinner table. This is how sexually repressed society had to pretend to be lest a fella.

[Noel Brown]

Be tempted with titillating thoughts of a lady.

[Ben Bolan]

Impious, profane.

[Noel Brown]

But isn't that the funny thing about all of this, Ben, is that these societal structures did nothing but drive this kind of behavior underground, as always tends to be the case with this oppressed stuff. Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

And I would argue it just made some things weirder and made people hornier. And made people hornier because now everything is naughty. So it's another example of how Prohibition very rarely works out the way its imposers intend. This even affected Victorian furniture. If you look at Victorian furniture, if you, like us, are fans of things like Antique Roadshow, then you'll see a lot of high detail on this furniture. Ornate legs, the clawed feet. You know, like everything had clawed feet. For some reason, they were very into feet and claws. However, a lot of people would drape fabric over these amazing works of material art because they thought they were so repressed that they thought it might be sexually provocative. Like someone would, what, be driven to drink because they saw a clawfoot bathtub and they just couldn't control themselves?

[Noel Brown]

So funny. And speaking of saucy little devils, Ben, the Victorians and food. The Victorians were also the first to use imageries of Lucifer himself, the Christian devil, to denote things like spiciness in condiments, for example.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah. And we also know that, by the way, repression doesn't mean that these people were. Were any more or less than the kind of people you run in today. And it might be surprising to realize there were some things that our current societies would consider, honestly pretty gross that Victorian society was totally fine with, like, marrying your cousin 100%.

[Noel Brown]

And we mentioned, I believe in part one, Prince Albert and his secret piercing. And that's a great example of something that is just hidden beneath the surface, you know, because that piercing day, in many circles would be considered the height of kink.

[Ben Bolan]

It just seems impractical. I mean, if you have one, do as thou wilt, you know, as long as everything's consensual. I believe it was proven to be a myth. Well, no, no, they. They don't know.

[Noel Brown]

They don't know.

[Ben Bolan]

They. It was named after him. Yes.

[Max Williams]

They don't know if he had one.

[Ben Bolan]

I'm just going to say this right now.

[Max Williams]

It's just also like, you know, medical.

[Ben Bolan]

Science and stuff like that really lagged.

[Max Williams]

Behind a lot of other things.

[Ben Bolan]

So it's just like in this time.

[Noel Brown]

Period, having that piercing just would seem really, like, dangerous.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, it's really infected and you die. It's an escort card for infection at that point. But I. What? I. I love that callback. And I'm even speaking more to the point that Queen Victoria married her first cousin and was deeply in love with him. That's the Prince Albert we're talking about. Nine children.

[Noel Brown]

Quite a few kids. Yeah. So they, they very much were going at it. For Albert's 24th birthday, in fact, the young Victoria sent him quite the seductive portrait of herself. Sort of what you might consider a boudoir photo. Or is that right? Like some of those kind of. Yeah, a pinup type style thing, you know, sexy, but classic indeed, negligee of herself in which she wears her hair, oh, goodness gracious, partially down around her exposed shoulders while leaning against a sexy red velvet cushion.

[Ben Bolan]

And everything about this portrait is purposeful. It is, as you said, boudoir. The red velvet cushion is supposed to be part of the whole, you know, the whole gestalt effect, exposed shoulders, the devil, you say, why, she's the queen.

[Noel Brown]

And that velvet cushion, in and of itself, I think you were getting at, Ben. There's a certain implication, a texture that is in line with a certain female body part. Let's just say.

[Ben Bolan]

Let's just say I love how we are three grown men and we're super mature. And we're so happy that you have tuned in and joined us for, for part two of the Ridiculous History of Victorian Flirting. There's more about flirtation on the way. We'd love to hear your ideas, folks. Drop by our Facebook page, ridiculous Historians. In the meantime, big, big thanks to our super producer, the literal man of the hour, Mr. Max Williams. Also his biological brother, Alex Tijuana Williams, who composed this slap and bomb.

[Noel Brown]

Indeed, Christopher Haciotes and Eve Jeffcoats here in spirit, Jonathan Strickland the Quizzter, AJ Bahamas Jacobs the puzzler.

[Ben Bolan]

And of course, big thanks to Rachel. Big Spinach Lance Big Spinach. Thanks to you, Dr. Lance. Big thanks to rude dudes over at Ridiculous Crime. And big thanks to Big. Honestly, big thanks to Max for editing this. I know I to add a lot of went to a lot of weird places, man.

[Noel Brown]

Indeed. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Max Williams]

The Unshakables podcast is kicking off season two with an episode you won't want to miss. Join host Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business, as he welcomes a very special guest guest, chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. Hear about the challenges facing small businesses and some of the oh moments Jamie has overcome. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply JP Morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JP Morgan Chase & Co. Do you own a business that's ready to thrive? It's time to let Intuit QuickBooks take things like unpaid invoice and tracking expenses off your plate so you can take things to the next level. Intuit QuickBooks is an all in one business platform that can help with those day to day tasks like invoicing and expenses. Manage and grow your business all in one place. Intuit QuickBooks your way to Money Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments, Inc. Licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services. Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected, and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and they're all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up [e-mail] that's o d o o.com hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through February 25th. Stock up on your favorite self care items and save up to $3. Shop in store or online for items like Old Spice Deodorant Always Ultra Thin Pads, Gillette Fusion Razors and Refills, Old Spice Total Body Spray, Tampax Pearl and Gillette Mach 3 razors and refills and save up to $3. You won't want to miss out on these deals. Offer ends February 25th. Offers may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.