Why did people hate the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge?

Summary

Ridiculous History: Why Did People Hate the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge?

Release Date: February 1, 2025 | Hosted by Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown | Produced by iHeartPodcasts

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Ridiculous History, hosts Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown delve into the tumultuous history of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. Established in 1908 under the visionary leadership of President Theodore Roosevelt, the refuge was initially created to protect migratory waterfowl. However, what began as a conservation effort soon ignited fierce controversy, highlighting the ongoing conflict between environmental preservation and agricultural interests.

---

Establishment of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge

Ben and Noel set the stage by exploring the origins of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. In 1908, President Theodore Roosevelt designated the Lake Malheur Reservation, marking the 19th of 51 wildlife refuges he established during his presidency. This initiative was part of a broader movement to conserve natural habitats and protect bird species threatened by the burgeoning plume trade, where feathers were harvested for fashionable Victorian hats.

Noel [00:17]: "I think it's an important concept and as we know something that probably we wouldn't even have if it weren't for certain forward-thinking founding fathers."

Environmental and Economic Challenges

By 1920, the refuge faced significant challenges. Agricultural activities surrounding the area led to the depletion of water resources, causing Lake Malheur to dry up and become highly alkaline. This environmental degradation not only threatened the remaining bird populations but also adversely affected local farmers who depended on the land for their livelihoods.

Ben [19:03]: "The lake begins drying up. And what happens as a result of that? It becomes a terrible place for these birds. It becomes alkaline."

Local Opposition and Marketing Campaigns

The drying lake and declining bird populations sparked outrage among local farmers. They viewed the refuge as a hindrance to agricultural productivity, arguing that federal control over the land impeded their ability to graze cattle and manage natural resources effectively. To bolster their campaign against the refuge, opponents launched a strategic marketing effort, juxtaposing the protection of birds against the needs of children.

Noel [21:03]: "Which is what looks like the floppy gray cloth backdrop. And the birds in profile looking a bit threatening toward the child."

This provocative imagery and messaging aimed to sway public opinion by portraying the refuge as a threat to community well-being and education.

Legal Battles and Supreme Court Decision

The conflict escalated to a legal showdown, challenging the federal government's authority to maintain the refuge. The Supreme Court ultimately ruled in favor of the federal government in 1935, affirming the legitimacy of the wildlife reserve and the government's right to prioritize environmental conservation over individual economic interests.

Ben [25:16]: "The Supreme Court ... they ruled in favor of the federal government, and they said that this land does in fact belong to the feds."

Legacy and Modern-Day Relevance

The historical tensions surrounding the Malheur Wildlife Refuge echo in contemporary disputes over federal land management. The episode draws parallels to the 2014 Bundy Standoff and the 2016 occupation of the same refuge by armed militias led by Ammon Bundy. These modern confrontations underscore the enduring debate over land use, sovereignty, and the balance between environmental stewardship and economic necessity.

Noel [31:27]: "This argument from 1920 still thematically applied in 2014."

Conclusion: Balancing Conservation and Livelihoods

Ben and Noel conclude the episode by reflecting on the complex interplay between preserving natural ecosystems and supporting human livelihoods. They pose critical questions about finding a middle ground that respects both environmental integrity and the needs of local communities.

Noel [39:06]: "You got any ideas?"

Ben [39:07]: "If so, we would like to hear them."

The discussion invites listeners to consider sustainable solutions that honor both biodiversity and agricultural practices, highlighting the episode's relevance to ongoing environmental and political debates.

---

Notable Quotes

• Noel [07:05]: "Let's jump right in."
• Ben [10:37]: "Milliners ... were always searching for feathers ... nearly wiped out several species of birds."
• Noel [19:31]: "Right. It becomes a terrible place for these birds."
• Ben [25:23]: "Uncle Sam stole this land they didn't have."
• Noel [33:27]: "They wanted to persuade the public to side with them."
• Ben [38:05]: "There's always been some degree of tension between the federal level of governance and the state level of governance."
• Noel [39:06]: "You got any ideas?"

---

Join the Conversation

Ben and Noel encourage listeners to engage with the podcast community by sharing their thoughts and ideas on balancing conservation with human needs. Connect with Ridiculous History on Instagram and Twitter, and visit their website ridiculousHistoryshow.com for more insights and discussions on America's most bizarre historical events.

---

For more intriguing historical tales, subscribe to Ridiculous History on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Ben]

We've returned with another classic episode for you. You guys like wildlife refuges?

[Noel]

It's fine. I do. I do, actually, very much. I think it's an important concept and as we know something that probably we wouldn't even have if it weren't for certain forward thinking founding fathers.

[Ben]

Yes. Yeah. The national park system or wildlife conservation areas of the United States are pretty fascinating. This classic episode looks at a wildlife refuge that was created in 1908 to protect one of your favorite things, migratory waterfowl.

[Noel]

You know me so well, Ben.

[Ben]

Yeah, sure. And this is, as we'll see, this is a spark that leads to a fire of ridiculous controversy.

[Noel]

Let's jump right in. Picture this. You're halfway through a DIY car fix, tools scattered everywhere, and boom. You realize you're missing a part.

[Ben]

It's okay because, you know, whatever it is, it's on ebay.

[Noel]

They've got everything. Brakes, headlights, cold air intakes. Whatever you need.

[Ben]

And it's guaranteed to fit. Which means no more crossing your fingers and hoping you ordered the right thing.

[Noel]

All the parts you need at prices you'll love.

[Ben]

Guaranteed to fit every time.

[Noel]

Ebay.

[Ben]

Things people love Ridiculous history is brought.

[Noel]

To you by Grainger as a maintenance specialist for a historic high rise. You know that vintage charm historically needs constant attention.

[Ben]

Which is why when it's time to upgrade turn of the century mechanicals, they turn to Grainger.

[Noel]

With easy access to a million plus products and the scale to deliver when and where you need them, the right tools and supplies are never far away.

[Ben]

So you can keep that vintage building running like new.

[Noel]

Call global, click granger.com or just stop.

[Ben]

By Granger for the ones who get it done.

[Arturo Castro]

If you love your phone but not your carrier, just switch to T Mobile. You can keep your phone, keep your number and we'll help pay it off up to $800 per line. You can also use our savings calculator to compare our plans and streaming benefits against Verizon and AT&T. So switch and keep your phone, keep your number and keep more of your moolah. @t mobile.com up to 4 lines via virtual prepaid card.

[Noel]

Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device credit.

[Ben]

Service port in 90 plus days with device intelligible carrier and only redemption required. Card has no cash access and expires in six months.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarki.

[Holly Frey]

And I'm Holly Frey. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season we explore a new theme from poisoners to Art thieves.

[Holly Frey]

We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.

[Maria Tremarki]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Holly Frey]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartrad. Nowadays, here in the States, national parks are national perks. Or at least they're considered that way. Do you like how that rhyme, Noel?

[Noel]

Yeah, like perks. Like. Like they're good.

[Ben]

Yes. P, E, R, K, S. That's the wordplay. Yes.

[Noel]

Is there a different perks? I'm sorry, I need some coffee to get perked up because I'm kind of fading right now. Oh, and you're Ben, by the way.

[Ben]

Yes. The rumors are true. Fellow Ridiculous historians, we hope you have found the podcast you were looking for. With our super producer, Casey Pegram, and most importantly, with you, specifically you. We have formed Ridiculous History. Today's episode is about something that I think the three of us are all pretty big fans of. National parks.

[Noel]

Yeah, they're cool. They're so cool. Natural splendor in the grass.

[Ben]

Or the mountain, the stream, Purple Mountain's.

[Noel]

Majesty, all that stuff. Super majestical. Have you seen Hunt for the Wilder People?

[Ben]

I still have not watched it.

[Noel]

He says majestical a lot. The kid that was in Deadpool 2, is he a Kiwi? He's a kiwi and he is a delight. Watch that movie if you haven't seen it. Unrelated, total non sequitur.

[Ben]

Oh. But worth it. Worth it. Because that also has a lot of natural beauty in the story, right?

[Noel]

Big time.

[Ben]

Big time.

[Noel]

Yeah. It's about a family that lives out in the bush of New Zealand. And yeah, I imagine they have some sort of system over there to designate land to keep people from, you know, messing it up, mucking it about, right? Oh, sure.

[Ben]

Even if only because of the Lord of the Rings. And what I always loved about growing up here in the States was this preponderance of land wherein you can just go camp, you can just go adventuring. I know it's one of our mutual dreams to ride a burrow into the Grand Canyon.

[Noel]

We have discussed that multiple times, now that you mention it. The thing is, though, I'm assuming that you are saying you stand squarely in the four national parks. Camp.

[Ben]

Yes, absolutely. And are you a little more divided on this one?

[Noel]

Well, after what I've read in today's story, I maybe have to have one foot In One Foot out. Because it turns out that national parks could be a real thorn in the side of working Americans throughout history and, well, today.

[Ben]

Right. Because the National Park System was created way back in 1916, August 25th, in this country. And we're going to explore how these became a surprisingly controversial concept to a lot of people. So our story begins today in 1908, when President Theodore Roosevelt established something called the Lake Malheur Reservation in Oregon. And I believe that our friend Casey Pegram has a little more insight for us on Lake Malheur. Yeah, so the word malheur in French could be considered like an antonym for bonheur, which is happiness, Bonheur. So malheur kind of means a lot of things, depending on the context, but they're all bad. You could say it's a misfortune, a calamity, an ordeal, an accident. So, yeah, there you go. Malheur Lake, bad.

[Noel]

Yeah. Well, that's foreshadowing.

[Ben]

Oh, also, Casey on the case.

[Noel]

Indeed. Let's just get a few. Let's deal with some semantics up front. Front right here. Okay. We talked about national parks, like, that's what we're talking about. And while the system that created national parks is very much the same system that created wilderness refuges and designates, wildlife reserves and things like that, they're not exactly the same.

[Ben]

Right? Yeah. There's an important distinction to make because when President Roosevelt established this reservation, it was the 19th of 51 wildlife refuges that were ultimately created by Roosevelt during his tenure. He was just making refuges left and right.

[Noel]

You know, he was a bit of an outdoorsman.

[Ben]

He was indeed, Noel. He was indeed.

[Noel]

My question, though is can we spell it out for the listeners and for my dumb ass, exactly what the difference is between a wildlife refuge, a national park, and a wildlife reserve?

[Ben]

Yes, we can. With a little help from Ali Berman, writing for Mother Nature Network with the article Parks vs Refuge. What's the Difference? So in this article, which is fantastic, pretty comprehensive by the way, we learned that there are several different manners in which government land can be set aside for specific purposes. So first there's the national park. Everybody knows that idea. Think of Yellowstone. Right? And Yellowstone was established way back in 1872. So it's the predecessor to the early 1900s plans laid by Woodrow Wilson with the National Park Service. Then there are also state parks, which are like national parks, but they're under, you know, the management of an individual state. Then there are national forests, which are also different. And the difference here comes in terms of the level of conservation. So national parks have preservation at the forefront of their priorities. National forests have a larger array of activities, like cutting down trees for timber, cattle grazing, which will come into play later, and mining. National preserves are open to the public, and the difference is that preserves typically allow activities like hunting, trapping, or mining. And then, of course, there are national monuments, Things like Statue of Liberty, Mount St. Helens, national recreation areas. State preserves. State nature preserves make environmental preservation a top priority. For instance, Indiana calls its state preserves living museums. So these are protected for scientific research and educational resources. That means that human activities are much more regulated.

[Noel]

But the reason that Teddy Roosevelt swooped in to designate the Malleur wildlife reserve was because of ladies fancy hats.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Noel]

Did you know that?

[Ben]

Yes, it's absolutely true.

[Noel]

It could be men's fancy. I'm sorry, any fancy hats in general, because at the time, which was the 19, early 1900s, they were quite in fashion, these hats, these fancy hats of all shapes and sizes. But an important feature was the plume, right?

[Ben]

Yes. You see, milliners, which is our word for today, people who make fancy hats specifically for women were always searching for feathers to put in this headgear. And the search for birds to supply these feathers was quite a profitable industry. Right. So in the increasingly desperate efforts to satisfy this wild demand for fancy hats, people had nearly wiped out several species of birds that supplied these fetching colorful plumes, including birds like snowy egrets and roseate spoonbills.

[Noel]

Ah, the spoonbill also. The great egret, I believe, was also very much in danger. And it was this guy named William L. Finley, who was a conservationist of the time, who had particularly hung out around that area and taken a survey. And he discovered only two egrets in a month's time. And here's the thing. There's another article I saw. Do you know who Audubon is of the Audubon Society? And he's a painter, right?

[Ben]

John James Audubon.

[Noel]

That's right, Ben. The great American painter of birds who lived from the late 1700s to the late 1800s. And he was quoting in his day, as you know, he would go out and paint these birds from real life, and he would say that he had no doubt in his mind that any amount of progress that America could possibly make, including building cities, increasing population, hunting, what have you, that there were just so many of these damn birds that there was never going to be any threat. Obviously, he wasn't a scientist and he was completely wrong.

[Ben]

Right. Because we know that. That US Civilization was also incorrect about the passenger pigeon, which used to blacken the skies as they flew overhead. And they don't do it anymore because they are extinct. So back to Finley. Here you can see how this is a splash of cold water. So Audubon dies in 1851, and beforehand he makes this comment about the plenitude of these beautiful birds. Finley. In that search you mentioned, Noel Finley is searching in 1908 and only sees those two egrets during a full month. But he also does something else. He does a little bit of investigative journalism. He interviews a plume hunter, one of the people who supplies these feathers to milliners, and he learns that a good plume hunter, on a good day can make $500 cash in 1908. Now, could you do us a favor and whip out the inflation calc?

[Noel]

I can. In fact, I don't even have to, because Pacific Standard.com did it for us in their article, the Odd History of Opposition to America's National Parks. And According to them, $500 per day in those days translates to more than $12,000 in today's cash, which would be 2015. That's insane. Yeah, 2015. Let's just be real obvious here. He's not just going around plucking feathers. He's killing the birds. And they're skinning them and taking their carcasses home. Right. And wiping out entire. And he boasted, this guy, that he was gonna take that all the way to Mexico and just hunt them like a murderous criminal across the West. So, yeah, it was this report, when delivered to Roosevelt, that shocked Roosevelt into action. And he wanted to help out these birds, these three birds that were left. There were other species, I'm sure, but.

[Ben]

Sure. And of course, there were probably other birds that he had not been able to find during that month of searching, but still, the problem is apparent.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Frey]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together, we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season, we explore a new theme. Everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them.

[Holly Frey]

We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Yep, that's a fact.

[Maria Tremarki]

We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching, to see what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective.

[Holly Frey]

And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom made made cocktails and mocktails inspired by the stories. There's one for every story we tell.

[Maria Tremarki]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Arturo Castro]

Hi, I'm Arturo Castro, and I've been lucky enough to do stuff like Broad City and Narcos and Roadhouse and so many commercials about back pain. And now I'm starting a podcast because honestly, guys, I don't feel the space is crowded enough. Get ready for Greatest Escapes, a new comedy podcast about the wildest true escape stories in history. Each week, I'll be sitting down with some of the most hilarious actors and writers and comedians to tell them a buck wild tale from across history and time. People like Ed Helms, Diane Guerrero, Joseph Gordon Levitt and Zoe Chao.

[Noel]

Titanic, Charles Manson, Alcatraz, Assata Shakur, the.

[Ben]

Sketchy guy named Steve.

[Arturo Castro]

It's giving funny true crime.

[Noel]

I love storytelling and I love you.

[Ben]

So I can't wait.

[Arturo Castro]

Listen and subscribe to Greatest escapes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Paola Pedrosa]

I started to live a double life when I was a teenager. Responsible and driven and wild and out of control. My head is pounding. I'm confused. I don't know why I'm in jail. It's hard to understand what hope is when you're trapped in a cycle of addiction. Addiction took me to the darkest places. I had an AK47 pointed at my head. But one night, a new door opened and I made it into the rooms of recovery. The path would have roadblocks and detours, stalls and relapses. But when I was feeling the most lost, I found hope with complete community, and I made my way back this season. Join me on my journey through addiction and recovery. A story told in 12 steps. Listen to Crumbs as part of the Mike Lura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome. My name is Paola Pedrosa, a medium and the host of the Ghost Therapy podcast, where it's not just about connecting with deceased loved ones. It's about learning through them and their new perspective. Join me on the Ghost Therapy podcast.

[Arturo Castro]

Whoa. My lights in my living room just flickered.

[Ben]

I'm a little nervous.

[Paola Pedrosa]

I'm excited. I'm excited nervous. You know, I'm a very spiritual person, so I'm like, I'm ready and open. That was amazing. I feel so grateful right now. I Got to speak to my great grandmother Abuela, and she gave me a lot of really good advice that I'm going to have to really think about.

[Ben]

Wow. Okay.

[Paola Pedrosa]

That's crazy. Yes, that is accurate. Listen to the Ghost Therapy podcast as part of the My Cultura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

So Roosevelt sets the land aside that same year, 1908. He works fast, right? And for a while, this seemed to be a workable solution. The population was beginning to recover, the population of birds, that is. But by 1920, things started to go wrong because there was still agriculture happening around the area. Right. They're taking resources that are in this area and they're sucking them out the same way. Daniel Day Lewis in There Will Be Blood says, I drink your milkshake. Farmers in nearby areas are draining water from the rivers that feed into Lake Malheur, the Sylvies and Blitzen rivers specifically. And this means that the lake begins drying up. And what happens as a result of that?

[Noel]

The lake goes. Well, yeah, it turns into a dust bowl, right?

[Ben]

Yeah. It becomes a terrible place for these birds. It becomes alkaline.

[Noel]

Right. And what does that mean exactly? Does that have to do with like, the balance of the nutrients in the water or. I mean, if it's dried up entirely, that's one thing. But as an alkaline kind of, that's what happens before it dries up entirely, I believe.

[Ben]

Yeah, it's. The phone scale goes off. So an alkaline lake, also known as a soda lake, has a PH value of between 9 and 12. One extreme example of this, there's an excellent Smithsonian article I found about an alkaline lake in Africa. And this article was written in 2013 by a guy named Joseph Stromberg. It's got some scary pictures. He's looking at Tanzania's Lake Natron and the title is this Alkaline African Lake Turns Animals into Stone.

[Noel]

Ben, that's the article I've been looking for this whole time. I actually thought that this Lake Malheur was that one. But no. You gotta see these pictures, folks. They are outrageous stuff of nightmares, horrifying.

[Ben]

We'll post them on Ridiculous Historians.

[Noel]

So bad things, Bad Things. And that's per our previous Casey on the case. Foreshadowing. The lake is basically called Bad Lake and bad things happen.

[Ben]

This group of people in Oregon starts thinking, why don't we just get rid of this whole thing entirely?

[Noel]

Who needs a lake?

[Ben]

Just call it off.

[Noel]

It's a. It's just it's become a dirt hole. Let's make use of it.

[Ben]

Let's sell it to farmers. They're good at dirt.

[Noel]

Yeah, they need it. It's literally a prerequisite for being a farmer. You gotta have some dirt.

[Ben]

But they knew people might already be against this, you know, early environmentalists and conservationists. So they did a little bit of marketing. Right, to try to really sell the idea.

[Noel]

Yeah, they really did. They agreed that the proceeds would go to benefit. Oh, public works and schools, I want to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in this article from PS Mag, there's a fantastic ad from of the day that's posted in a tweet from Danielle Brigitte, who works for the United States Fish and Wildlife Service. And it's a picture of, I'm assuming, one of these spoon bills because it has a very spoon like bill and a baby, arms outstretched as though they were both posed in front of like, what looks like a floppy gray cloth backdrop.

[Ben]

And the birds in profile looking a bit threatening toward the child.

[Noel]

Looks like it's gonna eat the child. And it is every bit as big as the child. And the headline is, which is best for Oregon?

[Ben]

This baby or this bird?

[Noel]

Ooh, that's tough. And then the bottom says, vote for the baby 317 times. No. So, yeah, this bill was basically fighting against the people that were trying to keep this thing going despite the bad conditions.

[Ben]

And we should read a little bit of the copy here just so you can see how ardently they were endeavoring to phrase this as birds versus Babies. Right under the headlines that we read to you, there's another headline that says the Mallard Bird Reserve. Oh, I'll do. Transatlantic Voice would take from Oregon 47,000 acres of its most valuable school lands. So wait, 47,000 acres of school lands?

[Noel]

Yeah, that's the hook. It's giving them a cause, right?

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Noel]

Cause who do you think would win in a fight between a bird and a baby?

[Ben]

A bird.

[Noel]

Yeah, I think so, too.

[Ben]

It depends on the size of the bird. But looking at this bird and this baby, clearly the bird has got no.

[Noel]

Question about it, especially that giant spoon bill, which is the size of the baby's entire head.

[Ben]

Yeah, it would spoon the spoon the kid's head right off. But the thing about this was that they also added concerns about another naturally occurring life form in wetlands. Mosquitoes. And in this complaint, they talk about the dangers mosquitoes might pose to Oregonians.

[Noel]

And not to mention the fact that these, these birds were apparently actually stealing grain from the farmers who could potentially benefit from the land. Right. And that's a big sticking point in all of this kind of national park, wildlife refuge argument, at least when it comes to certain parts of the country.

[Ben]

Right.

[Noel]

Where folks could really benefit from those lands. Right here in the city, we think about a national park, we're like, cool, that's awesome. Save the egrets or whatever. But if you're a farmer and you need somewhere to graze your cattle and Uncle Sam has swooped in and taken a huge swath of land, might have a different tune to play.

[Ben]

Yeah. And I want to spend some more time on this mosquito threat as well, because we, again, have the benefit of being in the modern age. So it may seem like an exploitative or manipulative point, but the truth is that the complaints about mosquitoes are less about them being annoying and more about incredibly dangerous diseases from the time like malaria. So I think that is also a valid point and that that's another aspect of this incredibly valid or at least understandable argument, wherein somebody in a rural population, by a national park or by a reserve or by some sort of refuge may be saying, I feel as though you are putting the lives of animals over the lives of myself, my community, and my family.

[Noel]

That's right. Because malaria was still kind of a problem. Oh, yeah. In that area. Apparently it had wiped out a lot of the indigenous people early on in the 1830s, but, yeah, it still had stuck around. And if you've got a breeding ground for mosquitoes, malarial mosquitoes, no less, that's a real problem and a pretty good selling point for this. This campaign.

[Ben]

So what happened next? They did one of the most American things you can do. They took it to court, baby.

[Noel]

You defeated it. I mean, it went away, right?

[Ben]

Well, the state said that the feds had stolen it. They said, more or less, Uncle Sam stole this land they didn't have. President Roosevelt, as commander in chief and as the leader of the executive branch, never really had the right to call the shots for this land in the first place. And it went all the way to the supreme court.

[Noel]

It kind of reminds me of that story we talked about with your pops about Franklin.

[Ben]

Oh, yeah.

[Noel]

There was just like a bunch of land that they just kind of took it upon themselves to do something with. There was once a time where that was a thing.

[Ben]

Yes. Yeah. This happens. Not so far after it. So by 1935, the Supreme Court, having considered the issue. Air quotes, Considered the issue. Right. They adjudicated. There we go. Yes. They ruled in favor of the federal government, and they said that this land does in fact belong to the feds. This refuge, this reserve, is legitimate, and Uncle Sam had the authority to protect the wetlands from people, even if, you know, it endangered the livelihood of those same people.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia podcast. I'm Maria Trimarchi.

[Holly Frey]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season we explore a new theme, everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them.

[Holly Frey]

We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Vehicle. Yep, that's a fact.

[Maria Tremarki]

We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching, to see what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective.

[Holly Frey]

And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom made cocktails and mocktails inspired by the stories. There's one for every story we tell.

[Maria Tremarki]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Arturo Castro]

Hi, I'm Arturo Castro, and I've been lucky enough to do stuff like Broad City and narcos and Roadhouse and so many commercials about back pain. And now I'm starting a podcast because honestly, guys, I don't feel the space is crowded enough. Get ready for Greatest Escapes, a new comedy podcast about the wildest true escape stories in history. Each week, I'll be sitting down with some of the most hilarious actors and writers and comedians to tell them a buckwild tale from across history and time. People like Ed Helms, Diane Guerrero, Joseph Gordon Levitt and Zoe Chao. Titanic, Charles Manson, Alcatraz.

[Noel]

Assata Shakur, the sketchy guy named Steve.

[Arturo Castro]

It's giving funny true crime.

[Noel]

I love storytelling and I love you.

[Ben]

So I can't wait.

[Arturo Castro]

Listen and subscribe to Greatest escapes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Paola Pedrosa]

I started to live a double life when I was a teenager. Responsible and driven and wild and out of control. My head is pounding. I'm confused. I don't know why I'm in jail. It's hard to understand what hope is when you're trapped in a cycle of addiction. Addiction took me to the darkest places. I had an AK47 pointed at my head. But one night, a new door opened and I made it into the rooms of recovery, the path would have roadblocks and detours, stalls and relapses. But when I was feeling the most lost, I found hope with community, and I made my way back. This season. Join me on my journey through addiction and recovery. A story told in 12 steps. Listen to crumbs as part of the Michael Lura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome. My name is Paola Pedrosa, a medium and the host of the Ghost Therapy podcast, where it's not just about connecting with deceased loved ones. It's about learning through them and their new perspective. Join me on the Ghost Therapy podcast.

[Arturo Castro]

Whoa. My lights in my living room just flickered.

[Ben]

I'm a little nervous.

[Paola Pedrosa]

I'm excited. I'm excited, nervous. You know, I'm a very spiritual person, so I'm like, I'm ready and open. That was amazing. I feel so grateful right now. I got to speak to my great grandmother Abuela, and she gave me a lot of really good advice that I'm going to have to really think about.

[Ben]

Wow. Okay.

[Paola Pedrosa]

That's crazy. Yes, that is accurate. Listen to the Ghost Therapy podcast as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ben]

So you may be wondering, friends and neighbors, where this story goes. How does it end? It feels like you might be thinking that Noel and I did a little bit of an abrupt cut, but we're not ending the story. We're moving ahead. Because this argument that occurred way back in 1920 resonates today and remains important. Today. We see many similar arguments, as a matter of fact, happening as recently as what, Noel, 2016?

[Noel]

Yeah, that's right. What are we talking about? The militant takeover of the mall or National Wildlife refuge? Is this what we're talking about?

[Ben]

Yes. Yes. All in one. So could you tell us just a little bit about this and how it transpired?

[Noel]

Yeah. Well, I mean, there was a group of armed militiamen, the Bundy family and their followers, headed up by a guy named Amon Bundy.

[Ben]

Yes. Eamon Bundy. Not to be confused with Solomon Grundy, though. They just rhyme.

[Noel]

Or Ted Bundy.

[Ben]

Or Ted. Definitely not to be confused with Ted.

[Noel]

Bundy or Al Bundy.

[Ben]

You know what? I'll allow it.

[Noel]

Okay.

[Ben]

All right. So Eamon Bundy participated in something in 2014 called the Bundy Standoff at his father's ranch in Nevada. This. This was a very controversial and sensitive topic because other members of his group the one that you had mentioned, Noel, this. This Bundy group were loosely affiliated with militias and something called the Sovereign Citizen Movement. So without getting too far into the Bundy standoff, we wanted to give you just some background on this guy. He is an American car fleet manager, and his father was a rancher named Cliven Bundy. And his father was a leader of this 2014 Bundy standoff in which Ammon took part. And their problem was that they were refusing to pay grazing fees for taking their livestock on federally owned public land. And they said, well, it's public land. We're just trying to make a living. Right. Why are you putting this land over the livelihood of human beings?

[Noel]

And it's that same argument. Uncle Sam stole it.

[Ben]

Right. This argument from 1920 still thematically applied in 2014. But before we get to 2016, there are some things that led up to the 2014 Bundy standoff there in Nevada, right?

[Noel]

Well, yeah, it was sort of a bit of a domino effect situation. So a guy named Dwight Hammond Jr. And his son Stephen Hammond, were actually sentenced to pretty significant jail time. I believe they both were sentenced to five years. And that is because they set wildfires on this protected land. Well, you don't set wildfires, I guess, but they set fires on this protected land to prevent wildfires from damaging their. You know, you burn things to keep things from burning, which seems weird, but it happens, Right.

[Ben]

It seems to make a break where there's no combustible material. Yeah. Or relatively little. Yeah. They set one fire in 2001 and one in 2006. And then in 2012, they were both charged in relation to these fires.

[Noel]

And I believe, you know, the way they said it was that one of them got out of hand. But according to an article on cnn, Bundy, who did the standoff, who was, you know, one of the guys who was the leader of the. Of the militia group that, you know, overtook the refuge headquarters, which apparently, by all accounts, was completely uninhabited and the doors were open. And this standoff was, like, not really much of a standoff at all. And he never really led on to exactly how many people he had there. And it was kind of a whole lot of sound and fury, signifying not a whole lot. But their arguments were that the government should give up control of this refuge so that hardworking, you know, ranchers and farmers can do what they need to do, whether it be graze their cattle or, you know, mitigate these wildfires in order to make a living. So it's that same argument of, like, this is more of a problem than it is a benefit.

[Ben]

So concurrently, while they're going through the legal issues with this, the Hammonds, the Bundys are having their 2014 standoff. In 2015, US courts vacate the charges against Stephen and Dwight Hammond. And this has already attracted the Bundy family to their cause. And the idea is that when the court vacated these sentences, they didn't just let them out. They re sentenced them pretty much immediately to a mandatory minimum of five years in prison. And the Bundys said, you know what? We're gonna protest this. And the Hammonds said, apparently, guys, we don't really need your help.

[Noel]

Yeah, a lot of people apparently said that. I mean, it kind of had the look of. That the Bundys were overreaching a little bit and kind of doing something that maybe no one quite asked them to do because there's this great Vice documentary where they go to a town hall, and a lot of the folks, the ranchers, the community is like, these guys are jerks. They're making us look bad, and they're making us look like a bunch of militant whack jobs. And that's not cool. It's not a good look. So it did seem like their gesture was not appreciated by all. Let's say that.

[Ben]

Absolutely.

[Noel]

So we know that the Bundys were big fans of armed standoffs.

[Ben]

Right? Right. And they were. They saw themselves on the right side of history.

[Noel]

Is it a standoff, though, if you do it at your own ranch? Like who. Who was after them at their own ranch? I'm confused about that one.

[Ben]

Yeah, as well. Right. But in 2016, this group of armed militants seeking to, I guess, bring more attention to the Hammond case, they seize the headquarters of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge there in Harney County, Oregon, and they occupy it until law enforcement finally arrests everybody on February 11, 2016. Their leader, Eamonn Bundy, not to be confused with anyone but Al. And their motivation for this was again, to bring more attention to that same old argument from the 1920s. They wanted to persuade the public to side with them in the idea that the United States Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management and other similar organizations are constitutionally required to turn over federal public land to individual states. So no federal parks, no federal Reserves. Only state level stuff.

[Noel]

Got it. So does that. Did it really accomplish anything? Was that a positive step? Because, I mean, the guys that set the fires originally were pardoned by President T. Rump recently too. So does that mean that the current administration is more sympathetic to the needs of these farmers and more likely to maybe get rid of some of these refuges? It kind of seemed that way.

[Ben]

That's an interesting. That's an interesting question too, Noel. I mean, there's always been some degree of tension between the federal level of governance and the state level of governance. You know what I mean? For instance? Well, we've already done several episodes wherein we learned that a handful of states were completely okay being their own countries for a while.

[Noel]

Yep.

[Ben]

Right. So as of today, this argument continues, and we have to ask ourselves, what is the solution, if indeed a solution exists? You know, are we to put ourselves in a situation where the quality of life for human beings is sacrificed for the sake of biodiversity? Are we to put ourselves in a situation where we sacrifice biodiversity and wildlife or natural ecosystems for people's livelihoods?

[Noel]

Well, then obviously, it's got to be somewhere perfectly in the middle.

[Ben]

Right? Right. Right.

[Noel]

You got any ideas?

[Ben]

If so, we would like to hear them. So write to us directly. We are ridiculousowstuffworks.com and we know this.

[Noel]

Was kind of a circuitous, weird one, but I thought it was fun. Do a little backstory, bring it full circle to the now.

[Ben]

And I think you did a really good job, man, by the way, especially considering your bird thing.

[Noel]

Oh, God, I didn't even think about that.

[Ben]

I had to hold it till the very end. But if you would like to learn more about this, if you would like to see some of those insane pictures of animals from that alkaline lake.

[Noel]

I almost looked at those, dude. It's like I shed my bird fear just for this episode. And then you reminded me, and it all came flooding back and.

[Ben]

Like a murder of crows flapping back, flying back.

[Noel]

I'm gonna need you to finish this one.

[Ben]

So, yeah, you can see those pictures on our community page. Ridiculous historians. You can find us on Instagram, you can find us on Twitter, and you can check out our website for every single show we have ever done.

[Noel]

We don't tweet, do we?

[Ben]

You and I spend more time on the Instagram and the Facebook page. That's true.

[Noel]

We need. We need to get a little more personal with that Instagram, though. I looked at the other day, and it was kind of a sad sight.

[Ben]

Let us know what you would like to see on the Instagram and we will. We will pop in there ourselves and get a little bit ridiculous with it. But in the meantime, our website is ridiculous History show.

[Noel]

That's right.

[Ben]

And we'd also like to. You know what? Let's start on a positive note, Noel. What's your favorite national park if you're not in the states? What's. Does your country have an equivalent?

[Noel]

Yeah, let us know. And we'd also, of course, like to thank super producer Casey Pegram Alex Williams, who composed our theme. I'd like to thank you, Ben, and.

[Ben]

Thank you, Noel, for waiting till the.

[Noel]

End to mention the fact this episode was about birds.

[Ben]

Caca, bro. Caca.

[Noel]

And yeah, most of importantly, thank you guys for listening and tuning in. And join us next time when we talk about something else.

[Ben]

That's right, Noel. Tune in for our next episode when we explore the surprising origins of Oregon.

[Noel]

See you then, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Frey]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together, we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season we explore a new theme. From poisoners to art thieves.

[Holly Frey]

We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.

[Maria Tremarki]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Holly Frey]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Arturo Castro]

Hi, I'm Arturo Castro, and I've been lucky enough to do stuff like Broad City and Narcos and Roadhouse. And now I'm starting a podcast because honestly, guys, I don't feel the space is crowded enough. Get ready for Greatest Escapes, a new comedy podcast about the wildest true escape stories in history. Each week, I'll be sitting down with some of the most hilarious actors and writers and comedians. People like Ed Helms, Diane Guerrero, and Joseph Gordon Levitt.

[Noel]

I love storytelling and I love you.

[Ben]

So I can't wait.

[Arturo Castro]

Listen and subscribe to Greatest escapes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show, and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily show era Year's Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondence and contributors. And with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Paola Pedrosa]

Welcome. My name is Paola Pedrosa, a medium and the host of the Ghost Therapy podcast, where it's not just about connecting with deceased loved ones, it's about learning through them and their new perspective. I think God sent me this gift so I can show it to the world. And most of all, I help people every day, single day. Listen to the Ghost Therapy podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.