Empowering Independent Voters: The Keys to Ending Political Polarization with Lura Forcum

Summary

Summary of "Empowering Independent Voters: The Keys to Ending Political Polarization"

Podcast: Right About Now with Ryan Alford
Host: Ryan Alford
Guest: Dr. Lori Forkham, President of the Independent Center
Release Date: February 4, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Right About Now with Ryan Alford, host Ryan Alford engages in a compelling conversation with Dr. Lori Forkham, the President of the Independent Center. The discussion centers on empowering independent voters as a strategy to mitigate political polarization in the United States. Through insightful dialogue, Dr. Forkham shares her expertise on human behavior, marketing, and public policy, offering a roadmap for fostering a more unified and effective political landscape.

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The American Dream: Then and Now

Ryan Alford opens the dialogue by questioning whether younger generations still value the American Dream. Dr. Lori Forkham affirms this, noting a shift in its manifestation:

“[00:04] Lori Forkham: Younger generations absolutely have an American dream. It just doesn't look like what older generations had.”

She explains that while the essence of striving for a better life remains, the specifics have evolved. Modern aspirations lean more towards experiences and personal fulfillment rather than material possessions, reflecting a broader, more inclusive interpretation of success.

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Human Behavior and Relationships in Politics

Dr. Forkham delves into her background in marketing and psychology, emphasizing the fundamental human need for relationships and connection:

“[02:08] Lori Forkham: The key motivation for everybody is their relationships and feeling connected to other people.”

She highlights that political engagement should foster these connections rather than exacerbate divisions. By understanding human motivations, policymakers can craft initiatives that resonate on a personal level, promoting unity and cooperation.

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Political Polarization and Tribalism

The conversation shifts to the pervasive issue of political polarization. Ryan Alford observes the increasing tribalism in American politics, where differing opinions are often seen as existential threats rather than opportunities for dialogue:

“[19:40] Lori Forkham: We can have a politics that is about differing opinions, but at the end of the day, we're still citizens of the same country.”

Dr. Forkham argues that this "in-group vs. out-group" mentality undermines the fabric of American society, making collaborative governance nearly impossible. She advocates for a shift in perspective, where political discourse is viewed as a means to address shared challenges rather than as battles between opposing factions.

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The Independent Center's Mission and Insights

Dr. Forkham outlines the mission of the Independent Center, which seeks to bridge the partisan divide by focusing on policies rather than political affiliations. Through rigorous research, including surveys and focus groups, the Center aims to amplify the voices of independents who prioritize effective governance over party loyalty.

“[27:35] Lori Forkham: Our metric of success is like, can we get more people engaged in politics, public policy conversations?”

The Center emphasizes the importance of nuanced views and the recognition that policy issues often transcend traditional party lines.

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Bipartisanship and Effective Governance

A central theme of the discussion is the electorate’s yearning for bipartisanship. Ryan Alford shares observations from his platform, noting that voters expect elected officials to collaborate across party lines to address complex issues.

“[33:14] Lori Forkham: Republicans, independents, everybody is looking for bipartisanship.”

Dr. Forkham reveals that despite the two-party system's current trajectory, there is a significant public appetite for collaborative governance. This preference stems from an understanding that effective policy-making often requires compromise and coalition-building.

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Encouraging Independent Voters

The episode underscores the critical role independent voters play in shaping a balanced political environment. Dr. Forkham encourages independents to participate actively in elections, even if they do not align strictly with either major party:

“[22:35] Lori Forkham: If neither of those parties are for you, that's fine. But like come in and express your opinion at the ballot box.”

She highlights the influence of independents in delivering swing votes and promoting policies that reflect a broader spectrum of societal needs.

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Entrepreneurship and Policy

Addressing the interests of the podcast’s audience, Dr. Forkham discusses the intersection of entrepreneurship and public policy. She emphasizes that supportive policies can empower entrepreneurs to innovate and contribute to economic growth:

“[12:49] Lori Forkham: If you're trying to build a business, I think that has aspects of your relationship and your identity.”

Policies that reduce regulatory barriers and foster a conducive environment for business development are crucial for sustaining the American Dream and driving innovation.

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Social Media's Impact

The discussion also touches on the detrimental effects of social media on political discourse. Ryan Alford and Dr. Forkham agree that algorithms often reinforce echo chambers, exacerbating polarization by limiting exposure to diverse perspectives.

“[07:53] Lori Forkham: Algorithms and social media are just showing you the stuff that they can tell that you like.”

This isolation hinders meaningful dialogue and prevents individuals from understanding and appreciating differing viewpoints, thus deepening societal divides.

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Parenting and Trust in Individual Choices

Using a parenting analogy, Dr. Forkham illustrates the importance of trusting individuals to make informed decisions. Just as parents guide their children rather than dictate their every move, policymakers should create environments that empower citizens to pursue their aspirations:

“[24:16] Lori Forkham: We have to trust people to pursue the things that are deeply who they are, deeply meaningful to them.”

This approach fosters personal responsibility and community engagement, essential components for a thriving democracy.

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Future of American Politics

Looking ahead, Dr. Forkham predicts a significant shift in political dynamics as younger generations, predominantly identifying as independents, begin to exert greater influence. This trend suggests a move away from binary political affiliations towards a more fluid and issue-based engagement:

“[35:51] Lori Forkham: Younger generations, Gen Z millennials are actually like 52% independent.”

This growing independence could catalyze reforms that prioritize pragmatic solutions over partisan victory, potentially reducing polarization and enhancing governance quality.

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Conclusion and How to Get Involved

As the episode concludes, Dr. Forkham invites listeners to engage with the Independent Center through various channels, emphasizing the importance of informed and active participation in shaping public policy:

“[37:14] Lori Forkham: Reach out to us. We'[e-mail] we have a weekly newsletter.”

Ryan Alford reinforces the call to action, encouraging the audience to subscribe to the Center’s newsletter and participate in the movement towards less polarized and more effective governance.

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Key Takeaways

• Evolving American Dream: Younger generations value personal fulfillment and experiences over traditional materialistic goals.
• Importance of Relationships: Effective political engagement stems from fostering connections and understanding human motivations.
• Combatting Polarization: Moving beyond "us vs. them" mentality is essential for unified governance.
• Role of Independents: Independent voters are pivotal in bridging partisan divides and promoting bipartisan policies.
• Supportive Policies for Entrepreneurs: Creating an enabling environment for entrepreneurship is crucial for economic growth and the American Dream.
• Negative Impact of Social Media: Algorithms that reinforce echo chambers contribute significantly to political polarization.
• Trust and Empowerment: Empowering individuals to make informed decisions leads to a more engaged and resilient democracy.
• Future Trends: A rising tide of independent thinkers among younger generations promises a shift towards more nuanced and effective political discourse.

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For more information and to get involved with the Independent Center, visit independencecenter.org or subscribe to their weekly newsletter. Stay updated with Ryan Alford's insights by visiting ryanisright.com and following @rightaboutnowshow and @ryanalford on Instagram.

Transcript

[Ryan Alford]

Do young people value the idea of the American dream in your mind?

[Lori Forkham]

Oh, absolutely. I think that's a really interesting question too, and it's something we've seen in our research. Younger generations absolutely have an American dream. It just doesn't look like what older generations had.

[Ryan Alford]

This is Right about now with Ryan Alford, a Radcast Network production. We are the number one business show on the planet with over 1 million downloads a month, taking the BS out of business for over six years in over 4, 400 episodes. You ready to start snapping necks and cashing checks? Well, it starts right about now.

What's up, guys? Welcome to Right about now. We're always talking about what's now. We could talk about the future, we could talk about the past, but we're talking about today. What you need to know, how you get ahead. And look, I think you. You're going to recognize a name today because I've been talking about him for a few months. It really matters today. A lot of the stuff that's going on is very partisan and very political, and I like to cut through the bullshit and ultimately talk about policies that matter. That's why I love the independent center and that's why we brought the President. We're going straight to the top, baby. Straight to the top. We got the doctor of independence, Lori Forkham. What's up, Lori?

[Lori Forkham]

Hey, Ryan. Good to be here. Good. Thank you for having me.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah, it's good, it's good. Hey, in person, too. Ye know, I was like, hey, can't pass that up.

[Lori Forkham]

I know. I'm your neighbor.

[Ryan Alford]

I know. And you're down the road.

[Lori Forkham]

I'm down the road in Pendleton and.

[Ryan Alford]

You'Re in marketing and you're a professor at Clemson, where I went. How did we not, like, know each other?

[Lori Forkham]

Well, I. We're the same age, so I was not a professor. You weren't a professor there.

[Ryan Alford]

This is true. Yes.

[Lori Forkham]

No, I was a professor after. After you finished there. But I. Yeah, I spent several years teaching marketing there. Studying human behavior. Psychology.

[Ryan Alford]

Yep. What motivates people.

[Lori Forkham]

Oh, that's a long. That's a whole separate podcast.

[Ryan Alford]

I know you did that, though. Like, did not boil down to, like, one or two things, though.

[Lori Forkham]

Yes. So I would say, like, the key motivation for everybody is their relationships and feeling connected to other people, the people around them. It's their family, it's their friends, it's neighbors and communities. Like, we are inherently social animals. And you can explain so much of human behavior by trying to, like, protect those relationships. People flourish when they're connected to other people and they, like we know now that people who are socially isolated, just life is really hard for them. They have poor health outcomes, all kinds of things. So we are social creatures.

[Ryan Alford]

Yes, we are. And you know, I'm not Mr. Academia. We had that discussion. Another story for another day. I've talked about it on the show, but I do like some marketing books. Some of my favorite are like the Art of Persuasion and like, those kind of things. And because I always say people think with their head and they buy with their heart.

[Lori Forkham]

Absolutely. I mean, so one of the relationships we have is with ourself.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

Like, you could think of that as almost a social relationship. And people buy things and ideas. Right. And like relationships in some senses, when it helps them feel more connected to themselves, like that's their identity. Right. Like that is our relationship with ourself. So whatever marketers can do to make it seem like their product helps you be more connected to yourself or to the other people in your life. Like, that's such a motivating factor.

[Ryan Alford]

I think so. I think it actually ties into the American dream too.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Ryan Alford]

When you think about those motivations and those, the history of that and that's what's so fascinating. We've been talking about that on the show and I love what the independent center is doing around this. You know, bring the studies, the data, the stuff we've done, the man on the street stuff, which you've probably seen in some of my content. But I mean, when you hear like, yeah, Laura Forkham, like, what. What's the American dream to you?

[Lori Forkham]

I have a very geeky American dream. And this is kind of what I have realized as my career has developed. But like, to me, what's really excited, exciting is when people are participating in public policy conversations, which I know is not for everybody.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

But I know it's important to you too. And I think steer. I think the thing that's really important is people making their voices known about what they need to live their lives the way they want, what they don't need. And that's how we make everybody better off. And I know that politics right now happens in a way that's very off putting to people. A lot of people are checked out because they don't want to participate in the vitriol and divisiveness that you talked about. And so what I realized was I wanted to take my research expertise and like, that background and translate it into like, can we make this better? Can we make it so that people want to participate in politics. It doesn't feel polarizing. It feels like something for everybody. So I look at policy as, like, this is how we, as different complex individuals, sort out our values and what we need and, like, figure out how to make our lives better. And so that's. That's my American dream.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah.

[Lori Forkham]

We love the man on the street interviews that you guys did, because I think what they show is that, like, instead of everybody having the same American dream. Right. Like, people have very unique American dreams, But the thing that matters is you're pursuing what's important to you and that you can get those things through your own.

[Ryan Alford]

I was. I was surprised. You know, we've talked. I mean, it was. They almost felt scripted because of how thoughtful they were and how they aligned with what we assume to be kind of like the silent majority of people that, you know, feel this way about the American dream and have diverse feelings. But, you know, there's also this era of feeling scared to sort of talk about it.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ryan Alford]

And because no one wants to be polarizing, and they're kind of tired of it, so they don't want to feed that.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah.

[Ryan Alford]

And it's like, it's almost hard to have an opinion and feel like you can have a dialogue.

[Lori Forkham]

I think this is a terrible place to be in when it's like, I need to make sure you agree with me before we talk about politics.

[Ryan Alford]

Exactly.

[Lori Forkham]

You know, how can we have conversations about how we want elected officials to behave or what kind of laws are right or what kind of programs are right if we need to know that, we agree before we can even talk about it.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lori Forkham]

Of course. We're different people. This is a really, like, diverse country. It's okay to disagree.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

Like, I think we're actually better by the fact that we like and value different things. That makes us stronger.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah. I mean, creativity comes from the very fabric of different ideas and thoughts blended together.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah, absolutely. Like, if you were only exposed to ideas and people you agreed with, like, your life would be impoverished.

[Ryan Alford]

Right. I mean, and I think about myself growing up. I. The diversity within my own family dynamic is what makes you who you are. Like, and we get in these, I don't know, echo chambers, and I don't know when that. You know, I'm in my 40s, like, but I don't. It wasn't always that way. Even in my growing up, I didn't feel like. I feel like. Because I can remember. I feel like in my 20s where I'd have disagreements with people about certain things. And it was okay, you know, like, we still have beers at night or go out or play a sport. I don't know when did that flip?

[Lori Forkham]

I don't know. But I think what's accelerating it? One of the things accelerating it is algorithms and social media are just showing you the stuff that they can tell that you like. And so you just get more and more insulated from other points of view. And sometimes you hear somebody else's point of view and you change your mind. Sometimes you hear somebody else's point of view and you're just like, well, that's interesting, but no, thanks. Yeah, but I, you know, I don't think that you are made worse off by hearing what other people think, because sometimes they agree with you for a different reason.

[Ryan Alford]

That's right.

[Lori Forkham]

And I think, like, we benefit from being connected like this, even if we're not in total agreement.

[Ryan Alford]

Do young people value the idea of the American Dream in your mind?

[Lori Forkham]

Oh, absolutely. I think that's. That's a really interesting question, too. And it's something we've seen in our research where, like, younger generations absolutely have an American dream. It just doesn't look like what older generations had as their American shiny house.

[Ryan Alford]

With the white picket feet.

[Lori Forkham]

It's not a house on the Little House on the Prairie and like 2.5 kids or something. Right. Whatever that number is.

[Ryan Alford]

And a dog and a cat and maybe some fish.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah. I think sometimes, like, older generations think, like, oh, I can't relate to the kids today. They don't even want the things we used to want. And, like, they do. It just looks a little bit different. Right. Like, they're more interested in. Younger generations are more interested in experience. Experiences rather than material things. And I think that's. There's actually a lot of research showing that people consuming experiences, like, really meaningful. And so I think it's really cool the research you did too, the interviews, because it shows, like, this is how different it can look, but it's all still the same overarching thing, which is we know who we are and we're pursuing the things that make our lives rich and meaningful. And then the question for the ic, for the independent center is like, okay, well, what kind of policy environments and governing makes that easier for people to accomplish?

[Ryan Alford]

You know, I've thought a lot about this, and it comes back to, like, some really simple themes to me. Security, safety, and the right to do whatever the hell I want, when I want. You know, like, within reason, within the.

[Lori Forkham]

Law, as long as it doesn't hurt.

[Ryan Alford]

Other People, but it's security, safety, freedom.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah.

[Ryan Alford]

Aren't those. That's the American dream.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah.

[Ryan Alford]

This might. It might be a shiny house, it might be a rented apartment, but you have security and safety and an assurance that you can make it on your own. Right. Or with your family dynamic, whatever that is.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah, absolutely. Actually. So some previous research I conducted, what we looked at was, instead of asking people, what's your political party? We asked them those same things that you just named. We asked them questions about, do you have the resources you need? How socially connected are you? Do you feel like you're part of a community? And we ask them about harm, which is related to your idea of security. We ask them what is harmful, what hurts other people? What should we do about harm? So we took those and we formed them into these segments. And the interesting thing about that is they're not political segments. Right. So, like, politics is not any one of those needs that you just named. And somehow we put it on top of our lives and made this really destructive, kind of argumentative, polarizing conversation, like, so important when really it's not any of those things that you just talked about.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah, yeah. It's the. It's definitely grown in perceived importance that doesn't really align with the actual value or interest.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah, that's one of the things I've found about living in South Carolina. So I'm not originally from here. I'm a transplant. But one of the things I notice is that, you know, the. The people around me may have voted really differently than I did, but we can still all get together and run our town in a way that is healthy and makes it a strong community. Like, we don't have to agree with each other in order to be good neighbors with each other.

[Ryan Alford]

Still Americans.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah, we're all Americans at the end of the day. And I think this, like, political rhetoric that the other side is the enemy and has to be obstructed like this just pushes people out of politics. And I want to bring them into. I want to bring them in. That's what the IC is here to do, is bring people into political participation.

[Ryan Alford]

What do you think, you know, are some of the bigger, I don't know, meaningful topics that are at the heart of people today that. That need to be elevated?

[Lori Forkham]

I think one of the really big things that we hear from our audience is about entrepreneurship.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

And I think that's something your audience is interested in as well. And so, you know, if you're trying to build a business, I think that has aspects of like, your relationship and your identity, because it's about, like, what are you really good at and what really excites you at the end of the day? And you can do in a way that nobody else can do. Right? And so we know our audience is interested in entrepreneurship. And then the question is, like, what are the policies that make it easier for you to succeed in growing a company or growing a business? And what kind of policies are going to make that hard? So it touches all kinds of things, right? And, like, really complex areas that you and I are not experts in, in finance and, like, all kinds of complicated stuff, right? Immigration policy. But the overarching question is sort of like, well, what are the things that. That we could do and what is the legislation that could be enacted so that people can build their businesses and they prosper and then they're making life better for all of us? Because I buy your products, right. I can use the services and. And things that are being created.

[Ryan Alford]

I mean, is America. What makes America great is our ingenuity and creativity and small businesses, entrepreneurs starting and then growing them, maybe into the next Tesla or maybe the next, you know, local coffee shop.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Ryan Alford]

But that's sort of the fabric of America. So if we're not stimulating that, we're in trouble.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Lori Forkham]

And, you know, if you have policies that make it hard for somebody to open a business, whether it's a coffee shop, a salon, right? Like, if it's just impossible to build things and to offer your services, then that makes everybody worse off. It makes it hard for people to, like, get their American dream. And so we need to. I think it's. It's cool to see the extent to which people. I think this is part of, like, the side hustle, right? Like, that way of looking at work is sort of saying, well, what am I good at? And what does the market need? And then, you know, the independent center's angle is sort of like, okay, what else would make it so that you can pursue those things?

[Unknown]

Right?

[Lori Forkham]

And what are the barriers? Do we really need gatekeepers who are saying, like, no, you can't open that business, or, no, you can't build that?

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah. Laura likes to lead me right into the water that I'm wanting to wade into. I love it. Talking to Laura Forkham. She is the president of the independent center. So, Laura, I think when you think about politics, the right and the left, I'm going to oversimplify, but I want to know, like, where we. Where we feel like the independent. I know the independent center of Switzerland, but But it's more the policies than not the politics. I'm going to lead it through the politics. I think the right, less government, less involvement, get out of my ship. The left doesn't necessarily say get in my ship. But we need governance, we need hardcore. I mean I'm simplifying, but I think that's a big difference of the right. The independent center being Switzerland and listening to people that policies listening. Do people lean more right or left in that or not even right or left. Get politics over here. Do they lean more regulation or less regulation? From what you guys hear, our, our.

[Lori Forkham]

Audience when we're surveying them, we are absolutely hearing them say like less gatekeepers. Right. Like less regulation is probably the right way to go. They want government that is effective. And the problem with the polarization right now is that these are two parties that are just entrenched and doing their own thing instead of what's best for the American people. So what we hear from our audience is like we expect government to be effective, end of story. And you know, when parties are instead just kind of obstructing and not working with the other side, that is not serving anybody but them. Right. So it's really interesting. You know, obviously, like we do a lot of research on our audience. We do surveying and polling, we do some AI insights work and we do focus groups and one on one interviews. And one of the things that strikes me a lot is that independents are, excuse me, Independents are like incredibly thoughtful people who understand that policy is really complex and there are trade offs in policy. Right. Like you think you're getting one thing, you end up with something else. And so they're just aware that like this is a complicated process and having these two super polarized parties is not going to get you the kind of good high quality policy that would make people's lives better.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah. I think we've lost compromise.

[Lori Forkham]

And I know it sounds weak and.

[Ryan Alford]

I hate the, as a strong opinion guy. It is like, you know, like I don't know that I always like to, but I, but I like effectiveness.

[Lori Forkham]

You do and yeah.

[Ryan Alford]

And it's ineffective not to compromise sometimes.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah. Somehow compromise means like, oh, you gave.

[Ryan Alford]

In and you're weak.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah.

[Ryan Alford]

No, it means that there's usually middle ground.

[Lori Forkham]

Yes. You found common ground. Like that's, that's actually some strength because it's like you knew what was important to you, you understood what was important to the other side and you found an area where you could overlap.

[Ryan Alford]

Exactly.

[Lori Forkham]

Strength.

[Ryan Alford]

And that's what's missing.

[Lori Forkham]

I mean that's totally.

[Ryan Alford]

It's just I'm going to have my way. And we've gotten to where like used to be that, but then it's just now brute force of my way or the highway. Yeah, seemingly.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah. I mean, some people describe this as politics, where you're saying like the problem in politics is that my side doesn't have more power. And I think independents are saying, regardless of who has power, we expect you to govern. We expect the government to work. We expect some fiscal accountability. Like, let's be sensible here with our spending and let's be sensible on the social side too. Like, we can tolerate other people's behavior that doesn't impact us. And we see a lot of that. We see it in. Younger generations especially are more likely to say that they're independent because they really don't see either side as totally representing who they are.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a melting pot of, you know, I like this, I like that. And it's supposed to be that way, right?

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah.

[Ryan Alford]

We're forced seemingly by our social groups into one camp or the other.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah, like it's, it's really more like a tribe than it is.

[Ryan Alford]

It is very tribal.

[Lori Forkham]

It's very tribal.

[Ryan Alford]

And social media is the, you know, you know, the, the stomping ground of it all.

[Lori Forkham]

Yes, absolutely. And the other thing that is, you know, comes from my research and, and some of the social psychology looking at, at human dynamics. So there's this work about in groups and out groups. And out groups over human history were like people you ward with. They were the other guys, the bad guys. Right. And the problem, I think in American politics is that we've gotten to this in group, out group dynamic where the other side is the out group. It's okay to take from them, it's okay to harm them. They don't count. They're not us. That's not how I think anybody wants us to be treating fellow Americans.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

Like, we can have a politics that is about differing opinions, but at the end of the day, we're still citizens of the same country. Like, these are not our enemies. We are not out groups to one another.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah, exactly. It's all one America. Back to the thing. And I think, I think that's what most people want. And again, we forced into these camps and it's even a struggle for me because you think about independent, you're still trying to be wooed to one side of the other, typically, especially like when it comes to voting time. And it's like yeah, we have a two party system for the most part. I mean, independents never won the president.

[Lori Forkham]

Right.

[Ryan Alford]

And so I don't know where this, you know, how do we break the pattern that we're in?

[Lori Forkham]

So I mean, this is absolutely what we are saying to people is that you don't need to vote for a third party to be an independent. You can be an independent and exercise your vote and, and vote for the candidates and the policies that you think are more successful. I think what's really unhealthy is when people are dropping out of political participation because they don't feel attached to either party. So they're sort of saying, well, I'm apolitical. And what we want to say to independents is if neither of those parties are for you, that's fine. But like come in and express your opinion at the ballot box. They swing vote. Right. They split ticket. We saw tons of split ticket voting this last election. So somebody at the top is voting for Donald Trump. Lower down the ticket, they're voting for Democrats, for governors and senators and representatives. So like that's what an independent does. And that's awesome. We need that kind of political participation because they're saying what matters most is not my tribe, it's a government that actually works.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah. And I've been vocal about where I voted in the last election, but I voted on both sides of the aisle in multiple elections. In past elections. I, you know, amateur independent. But you know, I think, but then I, I felt even my own personal experience of getting thrown into one camp or the other because I like a certain policy, you know, being an entrepreneur to side of things and not because I'm in love with the person, but I like the policies. And so even I've felt the, the, you know, the wave of one side being happy and the wave of another side just, you know, lumping me in.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ryan Alford]

With something else.

[Lori Forkham]

Assume they know everything about you because they know about one policy and one.

[Ryan Alford]

Candidate, you know, this time around.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah. No, these like blanket kind of assumptions about people. You know, people support the things they support and they value the things they value for all kinds of complicated reasons. But like when we assume that the other side votes the way they do because they are bigoted or snowflakes or whatever, we're just not understanding each other. We can't govern like that.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah. What drives you every day? Like, you know, like what, what, what sets your frame of reference for, you know, why you do what you do?

[Lori Forkham]

Oh, that's a great question. So I mean, like I have Three kids. My kids are, I think, like, parenting them. Maybe this has been your experience, too, but parenting them has made me realize, like, it doesn't work the way I thought it would work.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

Like, they don't follow orders. Okay, doctor, Maybe you're parenting better than I am.

[Ryan Alford]

No, I don't know about that. But I'm probably a little less structured. My wife is not, though. She's a principal at a middle school. So they get both sides of the aisle because I can sit by, watch. I know exactly what she's doing right now.

[Lori Forkham]

Okay. I parent the way you do. But it's like, they have their unique gifts, and I want them to be able to, like, flourish as human beings. And I want a world where they can flourish. And I feel like they. I have to trust them to do the things that are important to them and that are who they are. And so I think that applies to, like, how we think about politics too, actually, is, like, we have to trust people to pursue the things that are, like, deeply who they are, deeply meaningful to them. That makes their lives more meaningful. It makes the world a better place. But, like, it means you let go of a lot of control.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

Because I'm not going to dictate what is best for them. I'm going to have to, like, let them choose that, find their way. Right. And I try, like, for my kids, my. A big part of my energy is like, how do I. How do I help you find that and put the things in front of you that. That will let you express yourself.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah.

[Lori Forkham]

The version of you you'd like to be. And so I think, like, that's how we should be looking at public policy, too. It's like, how do we help people flourish and be abundant and trust them to. To make choices for themselves instead of saying, well, we're going to tell you what the answers are and how to live and how to run your life and what's okay and what's not okay.

[Ryan Alford]

It's hard as hell, the. To take. Let control go.

[Lori Forkham]

Oh, it's really hard.

[Ryan Alford]

Not because you're. I'm not a con. I'm not a controlling person at all myself. Yes. Very particular. But like others or even. But with your children, though, you know, because you know what they don't know and you want the best for them and it's, you know, there's the fine line of living vicariously through your children, which some people do. I'm talking. Let's put that over to the side and more like wanting the best for them. And knowing what are hard paths and what are easier paths and like, and letting them figure that out while also coaching them.

[Lori Forkham]

That's funny because I, I just had the thought, like, maybe you were a kid, like, I was, I was a kid that, like, you could not tell me anything.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah, I was close.

[Lori Forkham]

Were you kind of like that?

[Ryan Alford]

I had, you know, I got along with everyone, but silently, you couldn't really tell me much of anything.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah, I did not take any feedback or advice. I took very little kid. Right. My oldest kid is like that. It is infuriating. Now I know. It's my payback.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah, it is your payback.

[Lori Forkham]

Yes. But, yeah, he's just gonna have to figure it out. Right. And I need to stop him from doing things that have permanent consequences. But the rest of it is like, well, you're going to, you're going to figure this out. Eventually you'll realize, like, your mom knows one or two things. Yeah, that might be it.

[Ryan Alford]

But. Oh, PhD, you know, if you are in one or two things, what, what success look like for the independent center?

[Lori Forkham]

Oh, that is a great question. You know, we, we're really focused on being like, bottom up. We're not trying to tell this audience of people what to do. We're. We're concentrating on listen them through our research and focus groups and polling, all this stuff. And we're trying to help them voice what is important to them and what they need through the political process. Right. Like, we want them to participate politically and in policy conversations. So we're in a lot of senses, like, listening to them. So I would say our metric of success is like, can we get more people engaged in politics, public policy conversations? Can we get more people checked back into politics? Because, you know, where we are so polarized. Right. Like, we can't get really extreme positions out of politics, but we can add in more people who have more nuanced views. And I think that's where there's a huge opportunity for us.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah, I think I think about like, social media and the pot, you know, man, marketing, you're marketers, like, oh, you know, like. And it's such a great vehicle for exchanging ideas and doing things. But what I, when I hear you answering that questions and I even think about my own life, I feel like it gets in the way sometimes, though, of progress of this type of thinking and thought and independence and not feeling like you're being judged and you know, to get to that point. And I think I really hope we can get to this place where the policies are just Elevated to a point where you can't ignore them anymore. And you. And you almost go. The politics, the. You just push it to the side. Almost like, you know, two teams fighting, you know, it matters, but this is what matters. You know, like.

[Lori Forkham]

Well, you know, one of the ways I look at this is that I think right now, what people consider being politically engaged is not really, in a way that's helpful to our policy debates.

[Ryan Alford]

No.

[Lori Forkham]

Because when they're. When they think they're doing politics, they're, like, seeing somebody else's behavior and they're being outraged by it.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

So, like, they look at the other side's candidates and they're like, oh, can you believe she said that? Or can you believe they did that?

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

And, like, that's just outrage. It actually has more in common with, like, gossiping.

[Ryan Alford]

Yes.

[Lori Forkham]

Than anything else. Right. So as long as we're doing that stuff we think we're doing, we think we're politically engaged, but we're not actually contributing to conversations about policy and solving our challenges. So, like, if we want to solve issues around regulation or immigration or, you know, entitlements.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

Like, that's going to require us coming together and having conversations about what's important and what matters.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

And sorting out those areas of disagreement. And it's not going to be, we can't do it as long as we think of politics as being outraged by the other side.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah. And it's scorekeeping at all times. It's like, you know, every thing that happens is slanted this way or that way. And how can we, you know, one up the score?

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah.

[Ryan Alford]

And that's not doing anything to advance us. No. Even if, like, it. It's almost like it might accidentally do, but it's not getting to the core of the issues that we're dealing with.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah.

[Ryan Alford]

Of how I can paint with a red bus or a blue brush, you know, like how I can, you know, make one candidate look good and one look bad with the exact same story.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah.

[Ryan Alford]

Like.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, obviously it's entertaining to people.

[Ryan Alford]

It is. I think that's what it is.

[Lori Forkham]

It's entertainment.

[Ryan Alford]

It's, you know, freaking the real world. But in politics, you know, I mean.

[Lori Forkham]

It probably should be kind of boring. Right. Because a lot of the stuff is incredibly detailed and there are, you know, implications. Like if you look at insurance markets and how you respond to natural disasters. Right. Like, that's incredibly complex. I want experts, and we do have incredible experts that can. That are really well versed in this.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

And like, they can tell you what makes good policy, what makes bad policy. They're in government, they're in private sector, they're academics.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

Like, I, that's who I want talking about public policy and sorting it out. Right. With people's input. But as long as we're just focused on like what's being said on Twitter as though that's politics, like, we're not, we're not going to solve these issues.

[Ryan Alford]

Speaking of issues, as you know, you've gotten into this job and everything you guys are doing with independent center and looked at data and studies from people smarter than me, a lot smarter. And. But like, is there anything that surprised you? Is there like a source of data or a fact or, you know, thing that. Because again, you're like, you're strong willed, independent person.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah, there you go.

[Ryan Alford]

You, you admitted it, You've already owned it. You said you couldn't tell me anything. So was there. But is there stuff that even surprised you from the data? You know, and I, this is wide open. It could be on anything. But that's, that was different than maybe you thought.

[Lori Forkham]

Well, so one thing that's just come out recently, we just did some polling here at the start of the Trump administration where we asked independents, Republicans and Democrats, we pulled them all and said, what are you expecting to see?

[Unknown]

Right?

[Lori Forkham]

Like, that's part of keeping any elected official accountable is like, what do voters expect? Right? And then later on we'll poll again and say, like, did you get what you were expecting?

[Ryan Alford]

It happened.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah. And one of the things, Go figure.

[Ryan Alford]

Sounds like exactly what it should be.

[Lori Forkham]

Right. But one of the things that, that surprised me was that Republicans, independents, everybody is looking for bipartisanship. And that's not what either of the parties are selling. Neither one of them are saying, hey, you know what we're planning to do, we're planning to work with the other side. So voters are expecting bipartisanship, I think, because they know that with small margins, you're going to have to work across the aisles to deal with our problems. And I don't think anybody wants one mono party. That's like going out there deciding everything, right? Like, that's not going to get us good policy. So what we learned in the survey is that voters are looking for bipartisan behavior. And you know, we're going to go check back in a little the end of the year and figure out is that what we see? Is that, is that what voters saw? Are they pleased with what they're getting? And you know, like, that's the other thing I want to say about the Independent Center's work, like, our feeling is you should let people choose what is right for them and what's best for them. To the extent we can, we want to offer people choice at the ballot box. Right. And we think that when you have more choices, you can get closer to the things that matter to you.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

And like, that's very marketing centric thinking.

[Ryan Alford]

It is.

[Lori Forkham]

Right. Is like when consumers have more choices, they are better off because they get the product that matches what they want. And so, like, why wouldn't we have that in politics too?

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah. As a close out here, Laura, you know, I bring it back to the American dream. And I feel like everything I've been hearing you say is leading towards educating people on things and policies that can help them fulfill their American dream. And, you know, I, I almost feel like, you know, we were talking about our kids and talking about who's coming up, like, if I think those in power or even maybe the next generation, because we can admit we're kind of, you know, the elected officials we have have already been here. We know what we got. And I'm almost thinking like 8 to 12 years, 16 years from now, I don't think the kids and the young people are going to do it the way it's being done right now. And I think so. I think the boat's going to have to change or they're going to be, I don't know, a revolution anyway.

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah, I mean, you know, younger generations, Gen Z millennials are actually like 52% independent.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah, that's got to be high compared to 30 years ago, 20 years ago.

[Lori Forkham]

It's way higher. Yeah, it's way higher. And across the board, like, you know, people are identifying themselves as independents at higher levels than ever. And so I think a shift is coming maybe where people don't want to think in just these dualistic terms of like, I'm this side or that side. They're saying like, no, it's some of both. And so, you know, I think that having people with complex ways of thinking about policy and politics and kind of like you said, looking at this and being like, this is bullshit.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

Like, that's who I want involved in politics. I think when you, when you look at one party and like everything you do is great, that's. That's not reasonable.

[Ryan Alford]

No.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

Like, some of it is. Some of it is better than others of it.

[Ryan Alford]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lori Forkham]

But like, we can do better.

[Ryan Alford]

Yeah, we can do better. That's what America dream is helping us do. They're a proud sponsor. And look, whether they're a sponsor or not, I'd be supporting them because I believe in the American dream and what we're pushing for. Laura, how can everybody keep up with what you're doing, whether the Independent center is doing and get involved? All that good stuff?

[Lori Forkham]

Yeah. Reach out to us. We're@independence center.org we have a weekly newsletter. We publish our surveys. If you have questions about, like, what do people think about different policy issues, we have lots of survey work. We publish blog articles about what's going on in politics from an independent angle. So if you don't want to just hear like, what is the red side or the blue side on this stuff, if you want to hear like, here's, here's what matters for independence, sign up for our newsletter, come check us out online and reach out to us. Like, we're always happy to talk and chat with people, get connected.

[Ryan Alford]

You're very approachable and I appreciate you coming on.

[Lori Forkham]

Thank you. Thank you for having me. This is great.

[Ryan Alford]

Of course. And I think that's what we need in America. You'll find that link to Independent center in our show, notes on my bio on Instagram. And look, go sign up for the newsletter. Get the politics out of the way. Get the policies at the front of the line. That's what we need. That is what is now. Go find me ryanisright.com you'll find links to all of the highlight clips from today's show. All the good stuff, none of the bad stuff, all what's Now. We'll see you next time on Right About Now.

This has been Right about now with Ryan Alford, a Radcast network production. Visit ryanisright.com for full audio and video versions of the show or to inquire about spot sponsorship opportunities. Thanks for listening.