The Brendan Sorsby Decision and Sports Gambling, With Jay Bilas

Summary

Ringer Tailgate – Episode Summary

Podcast: Ringer Tailgate
Date: June 10, 2026
Episode: The Brendan Sorsby Decision and Sports Gambling, With Jay Bilas
Hosts: Tate Frazier, Van Lathan, Joel Anderson
Guest: Jay Bilas

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Overview

This episode of Ringer Tailgate dives deep into the seismic story in college football: the court injunction allowing Texas Tech quarterback Brendan Sorsby to play in 2026 despite NCAA gambling violations. The crew debates the case’s implications for college sports integrity and culture, with a feature interview bringing in ESPN’s Jay Bilas for legal expertise and historical context. The episode also delivers signature banter on NBA Finals, hip-hop, and college football’s future—all with the show’s sharp wit and vibrant chemistry.

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Key Discussion Points

1. College Football Banter & Raising the Roof (01:09–05:57)

• The hosts open with lighthearted discussion about school mascots, college basketball memories, and the originator of the “raise the roof” dance move.
• Notable quote:
  “I did it in 94.” – Joel Anderson (04:01) on claiming he predated Bob Sura bringing "raise the roof" to the NBA.

2. Basketball Culture: NBA & Houston Sports (05:57–15:49)

• The crew reminisces on NBA what-ifs, particularly the T-Mac/Yao Ming Rockets era.
• They talk about Steve Francis’s career and contributions to Houston sports.
• Discussion veers into Sauce Walka, Drake, and Houston hip-hop drama.
• Van on Houston:
  “Houston was just a cool ass city when I was coming up...” (13:03)
• Joel on Sauce Walka/Drake beef:
  “It just made him seem sad...and that Drake was so interested in this woman that it caused a beef. It just made me a little sad, man.” (10:00)

3. NBA Finals & Sports Takes (16:10–19:18)

• Joel and Van share their impressions of the NBA Finals.
• Debate over Victor Wembanyama and the state of the Spurs.
• Discussion about the fervor of New York’s MSG during playoff time.

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Main Segment: The Brendan Sorsby Gambling Decision (19:18–44:02)

Context

• Brendan Sorsby, Texas Tech QB, received a court injunction after being suspended for betting on college sports—including his own team.
• Judicial review has delayed NCAA punishment, allowing Sorsby to play in 2026 pending further legal appeal.

Debate Highlights

Van Lathan — Hardline Integrity Stance

• “Gambling and betting on your own team is...something that should meet the swiftest, harshest penalties that one can go through.” (19:52)
• Expresses disgust over the decision, fearing undermining of sports integrity.
• Argues that consequences are essential for upholding cultural norms in sports.
• Raises issue of privilege and double standards in how Sorsby is treated compared to Black athletes.
• On precedent: “This opens a Pandora's box...” (33:38)
• On privilege:
  “Brendan Sorsby is being infantilized. Brendan Sorsby, who is a 23 year old man, right, he's being treated like a babe straight out of the womb...” (39:09)

Joel Anderson — Pragmatic & “Integrity is Already Broken” View

• Cites history of gambling/cheating scandals in college sports, arguing the outrage is selective and integrity mostly illusory.
• “There have been so many gambling scandals...and y'all ain't saying shit about what you think the integrity of the game was.” (23:23)
• “Get the fuck out of here. Grow up. The games are being manipulated right now.” (25:01)
• Urges collective bargaining/CBA as a systemic solution.
• Calls for less outrage, as the root problems are systemic and precedent not binding.
• On consistency:
  “Everyone will be fine if Brendan Sorsby plays this fall. How do I know that? ... You have watched games possibly ... that the players were conspiring... and y' all ain't saying shit about the integrity of the game.” (22:25, 25:01)
• On solutions:
  “Allow the players to form a collective bargaining agreement... and that is how you prevent this from happening.” (32:26)

Tate Frazier — Moderator and Contextualizer

• Describes shift in gambling attitudes—comparing Rick Neuheisel's 2003 NCAA pool firing to Sorsby’s $90k bets.
• “We went from like being in a gambling pool for the NCAA tournament... to now betting $90,000 on games is a two game suspension.” (41:44)

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Expert Segment: Jay Bilas on the Sorsby Ruling (44:03–78:53)

Legal and Cultural Analysis

• Bilas: “I was surprised, but not shocked. This kind of thing happens... as far as I know there haven't been a lot of gambling cases where a player... accused of operating in the gambling space, especially on his own sport... would sue the NCAA in a local court.” (44:57)
• Predicts the injunction will be overturned on appeal, emphasizes that local rulings like this do not set national precedent.
• Stresses need for a clear red line against gambling on one’s own team.
  • “Absolutely I do. And I think that's a pretty simple thing.” (49:19)
• Points to NCAA’s diminished legal authority and the lack of a CBA as the overarching issue.
• Warns against NCAA seeking an antitrust exemption from Congress, advises collective bargaining as the key reform.
  • “Congress giving the NCAA an antitrust exemption... is like a bank robber saying... give me a law that allows me to do this.” (54:12)
• On outcry and precedent:
  “It’s just one case and [if he plays]... it’s not like every college player is going to go, okay, now I can be Pete Rose.” (44:57)
• On the NCAA:
  “Everybody’s got their hair on fire... [but] relax, the games aren't till August...” (44:57)
• Discusses actual consequences—appeal process is ongoing and likely to happen before season begins.
• Critiques university presidents for hypocrisy, suggesting more focus should be on why Texas Tech took Sorsby rather than on legal proceedings.

Existential Threats & Systemic Reform

• Dismisses notion that this affair or NIL/transfer portal is an “existential threat” to college sports.
  • “There isn't one. I don't know what Nick [Saban] is talking about ... the business is fine when my money goes up, but boy, when the players start making money and make decisions, boy, now it's an existential threat.” (62:36)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Van (on Sorsby case): “Right now, this motherfucker bet on his team and he should not be allowed to play NCAA football.” (29:14)
• Bilas (on NCAA’s hypocrisy):
  “I get kind of tired...of presidents...talking about values and integrity and then they don’t show any. Like when are you going to show some?” (57:24)
• Bilas (on rules):
  “I want the rules to make sense. You know, ... you shouldn't get the death penalty for a rolling stop. In this case they do [make sense].” (77:47)
• Joel (on outrage):
  “Welcome to the American justice system, guys. Sometimes judges make judgments that are totally incoherent and crazy... Welcome to America, guys.” (35:01)
• Bilas (on selectivity):
  “I think I'm okay with it [gambling] being legal. I don't have any argument about legal gambling. I think it's fine. I would rather have it above board...” (49:19)
• Jay Billis wraps:
  “You should do what I would commend ... when I'm proven right ... I say look, I don’t like saying I told you so. I love.” (72:43)

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College Football Headlines & Broader Banter (83:40–113:38)

• Georgia & Nebraska’s athletic departments issued statements refusing to play Texas Tech after Sorsby’s eligibility. Hosts mock the empty gesture.
  • “Don't threaten them with a good time.” (84:24, Joel)
• College football “future power rankings” discussion—surprises about Notre Dame at #1, LSU at #8, and FSU at a shockingly low #50.
• Lincoln Riley’s USC tenure called “hot seat” status; hosts debate expectations, schedule, and fan patience.
• Dabo Swinney’s vow to return Clemson to the top; skepticism reigns on the likely bounce-back.
• NC State investigating LSU’s “tampering” to hire hoops coach Will Wade; banter about Will Wade’s history with “by the book” rules and the pettiness of legal squabbles.
• End-of-show personal note: Joel honors Bob Simmons, the first Black Oklahoma State football coach, who passed away.

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Final Thoughts, Flavor, and Format

• The hosts blend sharp, sometimes profane debate (“fuck Bob Sura, too”; 05:17) with wonky legal/normative discussion.
• Jay Bilas’s segment brings legal clarity, big-picture NCAA vision, and historical memory.
• Throughout, they invoke audience involvement (“Let’s put this to the audience” – Van, 89:13); tease upcoming segments; joke about “ass-kissing” among hosts and guests.
• Podcast closes with a preview of upcoming villain-themed content, listener mailbags, and light-hearted reflections on relationships and “ex” analogies.

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [01:09]–[05:57] — School mascots, “Raise the Roof” origin controversy
• [05:57]–[15:49] — NBA retrospectives, Houston sports legends
• [16:10]–[19:18] — NBA Finals reactions
• [19:18]–[44:02] — Brendan Sorsby case deep dive, hosts’ debate
• [44:03]–[78:53] — Jay Bilas interview and legal/cultural breakdown
• [83:40]–[101:01] — College football headlines, power rankings, hot seats
• [109:00]–[113:38] — Coaching moves, more headlines, lighter banter
• [114:46]–[116:37] — Joel pays tribute to Bob Simmons

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Core Takeaways

• Legal experts and hosts agree: Gambling on one’s own team is a historic red line in sports ethics, and the Sorsby injunction threatens that—but likely is temporary and not real precedent.
• The NCAA’s vulnerability: A new age where local courts can upend NCAA rules, exposing the need for player representation/collective bargaining.
• Outrage is both real and selective: While many denounce Sorsby’s treatment as too lenient, the reality is sports manipulation is not new, and reactions often depend on the profile of the person involved.
• Larger cultural moment: This case crystallizes the tension between old-school sports norms, rapidly changing gambling/capitalism in college sports, and the ongoing legal revolution in athlete rights.
• Signature Tailgate tone: Smart, irreverent, kind of wild—but always grounded in real knowledge and authentic fandom.

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End of Summary.

Transcript

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[Tate Frazier]

Welcome back to Ringer Tailgate, the Wednesday edition of the show. I'm your host Tate Frazier and we got a jam packed Ringer Tailgate today. We got a big decision in college football, the Brendan Sorsby decision. We're going to talk about all that. An injunction was granted and now we have a situation where SSBY is right now eligible to play in 2026. We'll get into all that. We got a special guest today. Jay Bis is going to join us to help us break down what that means, the ramifications and beyond. But first and foremost, let's say what's up to our guys. Van Lathan in studio. What's up, Van?

[Van Lathan]

What up, what up, what up, what up? I wager that this would be a good show. I'll bet.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, it's going to be a good one. And we also got to say what's up in the Texas Southern shirt. What's up?

[Joel Anderson]

What's up, man? Good to see you all. Ye. Yeah, I'm a TSU alum. I'm a TSU alum too, man. Went there for pre K and kindergarten.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, that's right. You told us that.

[Joel Anderson]

That's right. The Lab School Legends.

[Van Lathan]

What was there was their mascot again? We thought we talked about this. They weren't like the. The Cougar babies.

[Joel Anderson]

I don't even know if they had a mascot.

[Tate Frazier]

We said they were the Kittens, right?

[Joel Anderson]

I think it was. Maybe it was.

[Van Lathan]

That was. That's. The Kittens is Southern Lab.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Tate Frazier]

Oh, that's right. Then you guys had a. Yeah, it was a turf War over who was TSU's mascot again.

[Joel Anderson]

They're the Tigers.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, the Tigers. So they're like baby tigers? Yeah. Yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

What a big. What a baby tigers call. Let me Google that.

[Tate Frazier]

Kittens, right? Because they're cats.

[Van Lathan]

Is that a little kitten? Little kitten, yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

What are baby tigers called? Okay,

[Tate Frazier]

Cubs.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

See, Cubs. See, that's what uhai is. Uhai is the cubs. And, you know, LSU is the tiger. The tiger. You know what I'm saying?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah. Van told us this week. He's a taguar. He combined the Jaguars.

[Joel Anderson]

That's right.

[Tate Frazier]

So I think that's a good place to leave it before we get into the show and talk about this story, because we're gonna give our thoughts before we get to Jay Billis. I did want to bring up. I had a fan of tailgate reach out to me and point out something with the Raise the Roof. Now, we have been raising the roof throughout the show. Joel Anderson famously invented Raise the Roof. And he let us know that Bob Sura, if you remember Bobby Sur, back from his days in Florida State, great point guard, shooting guard, play Cavaliers, he said that actually Bob Sura was the one who made it popular back in the day by raising the roof. And he also said that Bob Sura gave credit to Sinbad, the comedian, for inventing Raise the Roof. So now we have a controversy on the show. So, Joel, I wanted to get your thoughts on this. Do you. Have you ever heard this, that Sinbad was somehow the originator of Raise the Roof and Bob, sir, was the one who made it popular.

[Joel Anderson]

Not at all.

[Tate Frazier]

Video, by the way of boxing back. I think this is 1996.

[Joel Anderson]

Let's see.

[Tate Frazier]

Look at this.

[Van Lathan]

Wait, what year? Let me see it. I can't see the video.

[Joel Anderson]

96. That. That's after it already caught on, is a national sensation.

[Tate Frazier]

Well, what are you talking about?

[Joel Anderson]

I did it in 94. I did it in 94. So there's.

[Tate Frazier]

I mean, he joined the Cavs in 95, is the 17th pick, but he was in the NBA. Obviously, the Houston comments as well involved in this conversation. But, Joel, your reaction to this? You think that he just was following up on your original.

[Joel Anderson]

Original. I mean, by that time, Raise the Roof was starting to take over around the nation. I think the Comets had started doing it by then. And you know that it would take it off because the following year is when Luke released the song Raise the Roof. Raise the Roof. So, yeah, it took some time put it off.

[Van Lathan]

Raise the Roof.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah. Possibly Representative Luther Campbell, who also would like to get on the press box, but we were talking about that.

[Tate Frazier]

So do you think you're a part of the family? Do you consider Sarah part of the family of Raise the Roof? Like, is this.

[Joel Anderson]

I mean.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

He didn't do anything wrong. Your friend, The. The. Your friend.

[Tate Frazier]

Tailgate fan. He's a fan.

[Joel Anderson]

Okay. Yeah, man. I. I respect that you're a fan of the show, but you. You got your information wrong. I think it's just.

[Van Lathan]

I can make the argument that this guy is kind of on some whole. A little bit.

[Tate Frazier]

Okay. Because he's coming after.

[Van Lathan]

It was. It was well established when Joel invented razor roof.

[Joel Anderson]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

And you come up and talk about some 1996. You just trying to stir the pot.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

You know what I'm saying? I fuck Bob sir, too. If Bob sir ever come on the podcast, I turn to his face

[Joel Anderson]

like this.

[Van Lathan]

Put this out, Bob Sir. You ain't on shit.

[Ad Voice]

Wow.

[Tate Frazier]

We should get Bobby Sarah on the show.

[Joel Anderson]

You know, I called. I covered Bobby Sewer when he played for the Rockets during the TMAC Yao era.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, that was the lead stage.

[Joel Anderson]

Those were some rough teams, man. Clarence Weatherspoon, the. Kimbi Mutombo, Charlie Ward.

[Van Lathan]

I mean.

[Joel Anderson]

That's right. Charlie Wooden. Bob sir played for the Rockets at the same time, too.

[Tate Frazier]

Just like they did two Florida State guys.

[Joel Anderson]

That's right. Yeah, man. It was. That was some rough basketball, brother, let me tell you. Because TMac was hurt a lot, and so was y'. All. So there was some nights that it just.

[Van Lathan]

TMAC was hurt, bro. Yeah, y' all was hurt. But when they played together, they were a pretty frisky team.

[Tate Frazier]

That was a great what if in NBA history, like, T, Mac and Yao were healthy. I mean, they were really good.

[Joel Anderson]

I covered that trade, man. And the thing is, I thought that the Rockets were giving up on Steve Francis and Coutino Mobley a little early because they had played the Lakers to five games in the first round of the playoffs. But they were. It was a really competitive series. And you could just see, hey, man, they tweak this roster a little bit. They do a few other things. We can roll with that core. But it's kind of like the similar thing right now, like when they. When we brought in Kevin Durant and kind of moved on with our young core. And I'm just like, they. They went. They thought they could, you know, immediately supersize the team and get things going and be a championship contender. Just didn't work out because they got older. Older guys that kind of on the downside. Of their careers.

[Tate Frazier]

I do think the Rockets had short prime.

[Jay Billis]

Yeah, he did.

[Tate Frazier]

I mean, he was a little bit older. He was a juco guy when he had one year at Maryland.

[Joel Anderson]

You know, he. He got injured not long after that. But I really do think he was so heartbroken about leaving Houston and so was Coutinho. Like, that mean. They talk about it, about how, like, how difficult the next couple years were for them because they were. They considered themselves a family and they were really close. They. I mean, you know, it was a. It was a real thing. And I. I can understand being Steve Francis in the early 2000s in Houston, being mad that he had to go somewhere else. Oh, man.

[Tate Frazier]

Bro.

[Joel Anderson]

Houston loves Steve Francis, man.

[Tate Frazier]

I love Steve Francis. I have a jersey. Those are the best jerseys, by the way. They just redid the Rockets jerseys. I'm like, why can't you bring back the blue pinstripes with the Rockets on it? I mean, they're so good.

[Joel Anderson]

It's crazy because people hated that when they came in because that was. Those were the uniforms they started using after they won the championships. And so they changed it all to do that little blue thing. And now people love it again. But, yeah, it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Steve Francis still had a great career, though.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Francis, Five time all NBA first team. Three time all defensive first team. Wow.

[Joel Anderson]

Defensive first team. I didn't know that.

[Tate Frazier]

Five time first team. I didn't know that.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I just made all of that up.

[Tate Frazier]

Oh, I was gonna say.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, man. I was like, what, the. Three time NBA all star.

[Van Lathan]

Five time first three time NBA all star, Rookie of the year, all rookie, first team. And a great points per game average for his career. Average around 18 points a game. Scored about 10,000 points. Play around eight or nine years. Steve Francis, great career.

[Joel Anderson]

He went to high school right up the road from me, man. Montgomery Blair. That's right. That's right. Right around here in Montgomery County. So, yeah, shout out Steve Francis is

[Van Lathan]

how I first found out about Sauce Walker.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, Sauce. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. Yeah, the Sauce Twins back in the day, man. Like Steve Francis, TMZ story.

[Joel Anderson]

So, yeah, it's. Man, Sauce. Sauce is really. It's making me kind of sad how he's going out right now, man. Just.

[Van Lathan]

Sauce Walker.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, man. He's got this beef with Drake. Why, man?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I saw that.

[Joel Anderson]

I think Sauce Walker's baby mama started messing with Drake. And of course, you know, because that's what Drake does. He likes to fuck with rappers, girls, and put it in their face. And so he did that. And so Like Sauce is like. I mean, been mad about it and been talking about it for like the last 15 years. Anyway, I saw them interview this young lady on Drake's a TSU guy.

[Tate Frazier]

He likes to find.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, he does like. He does like. I mean, this. But wait, what was I saying? What was that guy?

[Van Lathan]

You were saying that the. The baby mama, I think her name is Kylie. She went on no jumper.

[Joel Anderson]

That's right. She went on no jumper with Adam 22. And hearing her talk made me feel bad for both of them. I was like, this is embarrassing, man.

[Van Lathan]

Like, you guys, why was embarrassing?

[Joel Anderson]

I mean, she just sounded really shallow and stupid and I was just. Okay, yeah, so I'll give you a

[Tate Frazier]

thesaurus word for that. Vapid.

[Joel Anderson]

Vapid. That is a good word. Let's see.

[Van Lathan]

It's a good word. So why. Why that, why that made you feel bad for Sauce Walker, though?

[Joel Anderson]

Because, I mean, he's pining for this woman. He had a baby with her. And I don't know what kind of person Sauce Walker is, but he presents himself is a cool ass nigga from Houston. That's what I believed him to be. And he's got this girl that he's, you know, apparently feigning over. Over just Drake shit. And he's kind of trying to call out Drake and. And she. I mean, she made some allegations about him that he was broke and that he had her ask Drake for money and all this other stuff. And it just made him seem sad. And I was like, even if that's not true, even if these are sort of lies, the fact that you have to co parent with this woman is a sad reflection on how things went. And that Drake was so interested in this woman that it was. That it caused a beef. It just made me a little sad, man.

[Tate Frazier]

You know, But I mean, Drake's dissing everybody on Iceman. So maybe, you know, getting dissed on the album is a good thing.

[Joel Anderson]

You know, I mean, I mean, people

[Tate Frazier]

had not been talking about obviously, Kendrick Lamar.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Tate Frazier]

And the Kendrick thing, I guess came from Baby Keems, like, girl that Drake went after. So. So that was like.

[Joel Anderson]

I mean, Drake. Drake goes after them all. And I mean, I think the thing

[Tate Frazier]

is if I was. And I have a home, he's like Pokemon of rap. He's like, I gotta catch them all.

[Joel Anderson]

I have a homeboy who's like, if I was Drake, I would do it just like that. He'd go out, I'd go after my old legends like JLo, remember, he.

[Tate Frazier]

He went out to JLo went after Madonna.

[Joel Anderson]

Went after Madonna. And he's just knocking down, you know, his favorite porn stars. And then he might recent. He might mix in your girl. He might mix in your girl as part of that. So my homeboy was like, if I was rich, I would be just like that. That's exactly the way I would want to do it.

[Tate Frazier]

So back, by the way, he said Joel was the Drake of Twitter. What are you talking to everybody?

[Joel Anderson]

Okay, Billy, you do so welcome yourself

[Van Lathan]

to the show as a Houston native, though, you're saying right now that you're disappointed in Sauce Walker and that you feel like Drake is fucking over Sauce Walker. That's what you're saying?

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, I feel bad that this is playing itself out in public because it reveals his baby mama to be a vapid person and that the idea that he might be pining over her or engaged in a almost 15 years long beef with Drake over this woman is a really depressing state of affairs. I wish it was better for him.

[Van Lathan]

Damn tough.

[Tate Frazier]

Might be the longest beef of Drake's career. It might be for a long time.

[Van Lathan]

This been going on 15. This been going on since 2011. Softball versus Drake. I don't know it's been going on that long.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, man. Yeah, man, listen to the no jumper clip, man. Because I was. Yeah. And I was like, damn, this goes back that far. But I mean, which suggests to me that kid must be damn near. I mean, just imagine being in high school, you know, and this is the shit that's going on between your father and mom.

[Tate Frazier]

And Drake was making Houston music back then, you know?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

I mean, he got. Man, he moved. He moved to Houston. Not too long. He bought a house down in the area outside of Houston. People love Houston, man. People do. They like to go down there. So it's not the same city that I remember.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Joel Anderson]

I mean, Houston was just a cool ass city when I was coming up. Like, you know, like we just like to ride top down, raise the roof, the lean thing, you know? So I wouldn't end the lean, but it was just about, oh, we trying to cool out. Like, that's, that's our joint, you know what I'm saying? And now I feel like. And I was saying this to somebody and I was like, maybe I'll pitch this story to the ringer. But my wife was like, they probably won't write it. But I was like, I feel like now people go to Houston to embrace their inner. You know, I see all this like these clips coming out of clubs.

[Tate Frazier]

You think the Ring is gonna let that be the lead.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, I don't think that's probably going to happen. She was like, maybe you ought to work on that. That idea a little bit more before you pitch it. But I'm putting it out there just in case somebody's interested.

[Tate Frazier]

Well, if you can't write it, you can preach it on this show.

[Joel Anderson]

That's right. So this is the meetings.

[Van Lathan]

Like, he. He dropped a song called Whack to Whack back in the day.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, no.

[Tate Frazier]

Oh, that was in the middle of Drake's Meek Mill beef. So he was just trying to get involved. He's like, anytime Drake's making a song, he's like, I gotta get involved here. I gotta get tangled up.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, man, I.

[Van Lathan]

With Drake, man.

[Joel Anderson]

Man, Sauce Walker had a great song, was with Benny the Butcher, man. Is that the one that I'm thinking about during.

[Van Lathan]

What?

[Tate Frazier]

Joe.

[Joel Anderson]

Who's your Joe?

[Tate Frazier]

Who's your favorite artist in Houston outside of Beyonce?

[Joel Anderson]

My favorite art. Oh, Scarface. No question. Okay. I think Scarface, one of the best rappers all time, man. I mean, I'm Dre.

[Van Lathan]

I called you Drake. Now, do you count. Do you count UGK as being a Houston group?

[Joel Anderson]

See, I didn't until, like, the 2000s, because there's a real divide. I mean, nobody from Houston. Now I have homeboys that have family in Port Arthur, but, like, nobody there considers themselves part of Houston. And we definitely don't consider them part of Houston. But it wasn't until people started blowing up or whatever, and then it's like. And then, you know, Bun B. Lives in Houston now, too.

[Van Lathan]

So now he is living there for a long time.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, I mean, I saw. I saw him at a Mexican restaurant once, Doug. That place.

[Van Lathan]

So if you. If you could. If you. If you count Bun B. And ugk, then is ugk. But I don't. I don't know if you really. Do you count them as a Houston. That's Port Arthur.

[Joel Anderson]

Now I do. Now I do. So if I'm making a Houston mixtape or Houston playlist, like I sometimes do on Spotify, I'm throwing them on there because they remind me of Houston. And I remember when they would break, you know, when they became a big deal, like 91, 92. I know most of the country didn't hear them until Big Pimping, but tell me something good. Played on the radio. Top 77 every night for like a year when GGK first came out and she scratched me on my booty. Not everybody in the world know that your sister is a nasty little girl.

[Tate Frazier]

RIP Pimpsy.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, man. That was my hard Dark.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah. DJ Screw as well.

[Joel Anderson]

Sauce Walker did a song with Conway the Machine. Dangerous Derringer. That. That is fire. It came out, like, about a year ago.

[Tate Frazier]

This is kind of Sauce Walk his dream right now that we're, like, giving him his.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, I'm glad Van brought him up, man, because, yeah, he. You know, clearly this is some hard times that they fighting over Kylie Claussen. Doug.

[Tate Frazier]

No, before we get in. Yeah. Before we get into the story of the week, just quickly. NBA Finals are happening right now. We got a game that is happening later on tonight. Just any finals thoughts, any big takeaways, anything we've learned from the NBA Finals. Are you guys locked in? Are you watching, Joel? I mean, I'll go to you first.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I've been watching. This is the most basketball I've watched all year.

[Tate Frazier]

Your spurs hate was seething when we talked about it before last week.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, I mean, also, I think. I don't agree with Jacoby. Right?

[Van Lathan]

But I do another shot at Jacoby for no reason.

[Joel Anderson]

Listen, no, listen, listen. I don't. I don't hate Wemby because that is a really strong reaction. And I respect Wimby and the kind of, like, person, the kind of dignified Persona that he wants to project to people. Like being a decent person and an interesting and intellectual person. Promoting that as a Persona is not bad to me, especially in the time that we live in. But I gotta say, man, doing the. That he did against. Who was it that he hit with the elbows? No, no, no, no, no. In the thumbs.

[Van Lathan]

The elbow. The elbow. The Thunder series elbow was. That Might not even been the Thunder. That was before the Thunder.

[Joel Anderson]

Was it the before then? Yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

That was the series before.

[Tate Frazier]

He had some questionable.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, it's some ho shit, man. I don't like that. Oh, he don't need to do that. He doesn't need to do that. Somebody else on his team can be the dirty guy or whatever. But I just.

[Tate Frazier]

But I think a lot of people are trying to beat him up a little bit. So I think it's reacting from that. But.

[Joel Anderson]

Yes, that's dark.

[Tate Frazier]

So you kind of are on Jacoby side. You don't hate him, but you're. I don't hate his side of the line.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, well, he said he hates him. I'm not. That's. You know, I have a much.

[Van Lathan]

You're anti. You're anti. Wimby. You're anti.

[Joel Anderson]

I'm anti spurs, and accordingly, I'm anti Wimby certainly right now also. I'm just gonna put this out here right now, and then, Van, you tell us what you think about, by the way, NAS in the Timberwolves. In the Timberwolves. Okay. Oh, man.

[Tate Frazier]

LSU guy, by the way.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah.

[Tate Frazier]

Van, any Finals takes.

[Van Lathan]

It's been a fantastic NBA Finals. Not particularly well played in terms of shooting percentages and all of that, but really well competed. Tough finals. Basketball, very dramatic. One of the best finals in a while. I'm looking forward to the game tonight.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, me, too. I hope the Knicks can, you know, get it together. I think they're a little bit. I mean, it's a big moment at msg, but it was cool to see MSG in that environment. We have not seen that for quite some time. Only once in my lifetime. So it's fun to see again.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, yeah, man. I think it's been. I thought it was great. It looked like a amazing atmosphere, except everywhere on the streets, man.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

You know, it just. You know what? It could have been around this. The arena was, you know, stunted because, you know, the president had to bring his ass there.

[Tate Frazier]

But they're doing the same protocols for games.

[Joel Anderson]

I know even without him there, it. It stinks, man. But, I mean, you know what? You know, on the other hand, I saw videos of them beating up in spurs jerseys. Jumping them. I hate. Yeah, I don't. I don't like that. So maybe, you know, maybe they earned it after that one.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, we'll see what happens. Gonna be a fun finals. Let's get to it. Story of the week. We're gonna do our one big reaction. Brendan Sorsby, in case you missed it, granted an injunction versus the NCAA. He is eligible to play in 2026. A Texas. Texas court scheduled a trial on February 8, 2027. And if you're doing the math there, that is about two weeks after the CFP National Championship game will be played in Las Vegas. So that is a very timely date for, you know, the, you know, court date to be played out. But again, Van, your first reaction when you saw the news.

[Van Lathan]

Terrible. Terrible. Terrible news. Terrible news. But terrible. Actually, you know what? Really deeply disappointing news. I feel like the outrage behind this is warranted. I'm starting to understand a little bit more where I sit in terms of my opinions on college football and college sports, you know, as they. As they stand overall. Brendan Sorsby broke to me one of the most sacred rules of Sports, period. And that sounds corny and it sounds stupid and it sounds like something that you, you know, that lives in antiquity. But gambling is one thing. People have gambling problems. Gambling and betting on your own team is to me, something that should meet the swiftest, harshest penalties that one can go through. And I just don't understand how we are supposed to maintain a respect for the competitive integrity of any sport if you can gamble on your own team. If you can gamble on your own team. And we talk about this all the time, like, I just saw the President Trump says something. The couch numbers go through the roof. And that's because, you know, he can look at the action on the Cauchy numbers and say the thing that is on the. It's just, It's. To me, all of this stuff is disgusting. But this particular part of it was an opportunity to set some sort of standard about what will be acceptable from these young men, young people, people, period, as it relates to gambling. And it just didn't happen. The judge took it upon himself. They missed. Now you have somebody who gambled a bunch of times, gambled on his own team, and basically will get a slap on the wrist. Me and Jay Billis was on later on. Will have. Have a difference about whether or not.

[Tate Frazier]

Spirited debate.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, a spirited debate about whether or not the NCAA still has another round in the chamber here. But I don't know, man. I saw this and honestly, it kind of made me sick.

[Tate Frazier]

And that was the reaction of pretty much everybody universally. I mean, you saw people that disagree on everything coming together to say that they were upset about this. We had athletic departments and ads responding. I mean, it's like the scarlet letters of college sports right now with Texas Tech, a lot of people saying we shouldn't play them. Joel, your reaction when you saw the news.

[Joel Anderson]

So, yeah, regular listeners of the tailgate might know that last week I came on this show and I sort of backtracked on my initial belief that the judge should be lenient on Sourcebee, you know, because I'm a bleeding heart wokester who doesn't believe anybody should ever face consequences for anything. You know, I'd open every cell in Attica. You know what I mean? But what I so. And I did say last week that there are a few bright lines of sports, and one of them is that you can't bet on your own team. Sports leagues have rules about this for a reason. And I had sympathy for Brendan because I'm like, yo, I hope he could beat his addiction to gambling. And I hope you Know, he can

[Tate Frazier]

get past this allegedly $90,000 that he has put down in gamble in bets over the years.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah. And, you know, last week, like I said, that's not the NCAA's problem. Like, they should be able to do it. But so. So then comes the ruling Monday for this visiting judge out of Fort Worth, because people keep saying this is this judge in Lubbock. No, it's a visiting judge who's.

[Tate Frazier]

It was entirely. I think people just didn't realize that

[Van Lathan]

the judge recused himself. Yeah, yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

Judge recruits himself, so. Right. And so people feel like the future of the game is being imperiled. No greater threat to the viability of the NCAA and college football than this one judge in one jurisdiction saying, you know, ncaa, you say that athlete welfare is part of your mission, and banning or suspending Brendan Sorsby would cause him probable imminent or irreparable injury. And he's like, nah. He's like, you guys could do that if you hold him out. But so I've got to order this temporary injunction. And so it all sort of led me back to my initial feelings about the case, which is that everyone will be fine if Brendan Swordsby plays this fall. And you know how I know that? There have been so many gambling scandals happening in college sports over the past few years that have actually implicated the outcomes of games. You have watched games possibly that. Where the players were conspiring to either lose or manipulate the game in some way. And y' all ain't saying shit about what you think the integrity of the game was. You said right down there in March, in April, and watch the NCAA tournament. And nobody was like, man, just in January, the Federal prosecutors charged 20 people, impacted about 29 games across 17 programs like Abilene Christian, Alabama State, all these schools. And that was. That was two months before the big dance that the federal prosecutors came out. And I didn't hear anybody say, well, man, how can I be sure that these games are on the level? I mean, literally two months before, when Alabama baseball's coach in 2003 was found to be betting against his team.

[Tate Frazier]

2023.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, 2023. Betting against his team. Nobody came back and was like, he's

[Tate Frazier]

in pharmaceutical sales now, I believe.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, that's right.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. What happened to him?

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, he got fired. No, but listen. But that doesn't mean. That doesn't. But the thing is, the impact of the game, the games were being manipulated already. I'm sorry. I hate to break it to you all. There are guys on the take right now. There are guys manipulating games right now in college basketball, professional sports, it happens all the time. And you still watch the games and believe in the integrity of the game. So I refuse to believe that because Brendan Sorsby got in trouble and got caught. But the judge said, you know what? I haven't decided on this case, but I'm a wait a few. I'm a wait a few months, but I'm going to allow you to play this season. And you got to think the Michigan sign gate, which actually speaks to the product on the field, right? Like, they were unethical about the way they carried themselves out on the field. It actually affects the guys out there playing. And nobody was like, the integrity of football is at stake here. How can I be sure that Michigan versus Purdue is on the level? So I'm just sorry that I refuse to believe that you all believe this, that college sports can't come back from this. This is the worst thing to have in college sports. Get the fuck out of here. Grow up. The games are being manipulated right now. I promise there's somebody out there right now they haven't caught.

[Van Lathan]

Like, I understand. I get Joel's perspective, but I've actually never understood it. I've never understood because, like, Joel talked about. He said he'd open up all the cells in Attica. And I know a lot of people who actually are abolitionists, right? And when you listen to them talk about abolition, they talk about all kinds of structures and frameworks under which abolition works, right? They talk about really, whether or not they actually believe that you should just open up all the prisons and jails and let people out. And even if you did, what that would look like, what it would look with some of the people who. Some of the child molesters that Joel would open up Attica for, would they go back into neighborhoods or would those people go into mental health facilities? Would they go to some place? Like, there's a lot to it. And a lot of times, the reason why I bring that up is because sometimes we talk about these issues and we talk about them in drastically and in binaries and like, in these really desperate terms. Everybody knows that people are cheating in sports. No one. No one. No one has any illusion that people aren't cheating in sports. Okay?

[Joel Anderson]

Really? I feel like people are surprised. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

No, no, no.

[Tate Frazier]

They would frame it as a competitive edge, you know?

[Van Lathan]

No, no, no one. No one. Who think I watched. I watched Greg Maddox talk about a couple of days ago, this is crazy pitch that Greg Mags threw where the ball breaks Crazier than his normal shit because his normal shit was breaking. Crazy. Anyway, where the ball just. And Greg, Max goes, that was a scuffed ball, right? So that he had. He got a scuffed ball and he took the scuffed ball and he wanted to keep using the ball that was scuff to make his two seamer break like that until the. The umpire saw the ball and took the ball away.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Great.

[Van Lathan]

Max, one of the best pieces of all time, saw an opportunity to influence the game. He took it. I think people understand that that's happening depending on what you think is cheating. I know that that's happening. We know that that's happening. The guy you're talking about from Alabama, what you're saying right now, I know he was affecting the game. If he was still coaching there, I think a lot of people would have a problem with that. I think if he was still coaching there, I think a lot of people will go, well, how could you have somebody coaching that is betting on games and influencing the games in that way? Right. I think if he was doing that for his own personal financial gain or like whatever was going on as far as the betting situation is concerned, I think that would be the issue. That would be the outrage. The presence of rules does not mean that they are not going to be broken.

[Joel Anderson]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

And the fact that rules are broken doesn't mean that rules aren't valuable. I'm not in a position or at a point in my life where I want to make somebody suffer for a mistake for their entire life. But there are things to be learned from mistakes, and there are greater ecosystems and cultural norms to be upheld from people learning from mistakes or having consequence. Not wanting to throw somebody in jail or give them the death penalty is different than living in a world that's completely free of consequence, because consequence is important for a social construct to be maintained. And we can have all kinds of different conversations about what is appropriate. We can have all kinds of different conversations about what is draconian. But what happened, what this guy did, what this kid did, what this young man did isn't right. And he should be forced. He should be forced to learn that lesson about what is appropriate and acceptable in the culture that he is choosing to be a part of. Nobody is making Brendan Swordsby play football. Nobody is making him go out there to do that. He should be responsible and be held to a standard if he wants to participate. We can. We can throw as many straw men out there and we can have as many conversations about who did what when, as and why. But right now, this motherfucker bet on his team and he should not be allowed to play NCAA football. That should be a part of the lesson that he learns, period.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, I mean, he. He may learn that lesson. I mean, this. This is still to be determined. And I. Look, Van, I agree. I agree with you. I'm not saying that I think Brendan Sorsby should play, but I also think that the outrage around this is. And I hate to be the outrage police because I think it's. You know, this just happens to be a very clear. The public sentiment clearly seems to be with. Brendan Sorsby needs to sit out for you. I think most people, even me, would say, I don't think that's an unfair penalty, but it didn't happen and it might not. But, you know, there's no such thing as living in a world free of consequence, because you know what? You can't. You can't be a player and guarantee that if you do it, that you're going to go and first of all, that anybody else is going to want you and that you're going to get in front of a judge who's also willing to make a similar ruling, understanding what the national outrage is around right now. So I'm just thinking. I just don't think this sets any sort of precedent. I think the people need to. I understand people being upset about it, but I really. I just can't believe that many people act, if they sit down and think about it, are actually concerned about the integrity of the game because you're watching games all the time and you just said it, Van. They know the games are being manipulated. So how seriously are you really concerned about the integrity of the game if you even watch it, knowing these fans know, hey, man, somebody out here might be on the take. But also, I had one other thing to say. I want to make them form a. Allow the players to form a collective bargaining agreement, form of the union and sign a CBA with them. And that is how you prevent this from happening and being an issue going forward.

[Tate Frazier]

And that's how the NCAA stays viable. I mean, it's so obvious.

[Jay Billis]

They just.

[Joel Anderson]

The issue is right there in your face. The answer is right there. You can do it. You've never tried to work on it, so I don't think you really care that much.

[Van Lathan]

Zero problem with it. Zero problem with it. All of these things are separate issues from what it is that we're talking about. If you think that it doesn't matter, cool, fine. If you think that this doesn't matter. Cool. Fine. I think personally, the people who are outraged over this decision, number one, are adhering to what they believe. Like, once again, like, the argument of everybody is doing it. I never liked that argument. Everybody is cheating on that. Everybody is gaming the IRS. Everybody is, is. Is ripping stocks. Everybody, like 2008 financial crisis. Everybody gotta, like, got a golden parachute to fly around. Everybody's doing so. No, it's fucked up. It's fucked up. And, and I'm. And I'm not precious or moral. And I do not try to moralize.

[Joel Anderson]

As I.

[Van Lathan]

Look at me, get one of these windows off this computer right now. Like, I'm like, I'm not. I don't moralize or do any of that stuff. That's not what I'm doing. But what I'm saying is right here, for sports, for what we're talking about, why we come to this, you should not involve in gambling on your team. You should not. You should not be able to do that. It opens up a Pandora's box. And by the way, you know that, that Pandora's box has been opened because we've seen it over time. We've seen it over time, particularly with gambling, with players being involved in gambling scandals. What happened when organized crime was able to get to players. What happened when gambling exploded and became a big deal. You saw scandal after scandal after scandal after scandal. And in a situation like this, the reason why people react this way is to try to put a cap. Even if it's culturally, Joe, Even if it's intellectually, even if it's rhetorically, even if it's just how we feel and what we accept on this type of behavior. And to say that it's meaningless, that you can do something and get away with it with absolutely no penalty, to me is just like. It's incredibly glib and weird.

[Joel Anderson]

Welcome to the American justice system, guys. Sometimes judges make judgments that are totally. That seem totally incoherent and crazy. Sometimes juries come back with verdicts that we disagree with. I'm a black man in America. I understand. Welcome to America, guys. Sometimes a judge does something you don't agree with.

[Van Lathan]

So then why are you advocating for it in this regard? You know what? But, but that. That doesn't even make any sense. If you know that that's. Why are you advocating for it in this regard?

[Joel Anderson]

I'm not advocating for it, but I'm

[Van Lathan]

just saying, like, then why, like, then

[Joel Anderson]

why are you guys.

[Van Lathan]

What's the point?

[Joel Anderson]

So surprised? Like, why is people acting like Brendan Sorsby has crossed the Rubicon or some shit like that. And I mean, I think. And it doesn't mean he did. You are a fool if you think that. Oh, Brendan Swordsby got away with shit. Let me put a little something on. And I'm gonna get away with it too. It's just like I got off for a DUI in Dallas. Doesn't mean that the person can get off with a DUI And Lubbock, like, it's like, we understand that like sometimes.

[Tate Frazier]

Not you personally. You're just saying as an example.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, right. And I should, I should need to shout out Jody Balsam at the Brooklyn Law School and my boy Fritz messenger and is a sports gambling attorney in New Orleans who helped me with some of this. But like, like they were the ones that said, look, this ruling is not binding. Any court is free to agree it. They don't have to agree with it and they probably won't. And even this case will probably be. They will probably overturn this or whatever. So again, I just think it's a much ado about nothing. So sorry.

[Van Lathan]

Well, this is what I'll say about that. I understand what your friends are talking about. And as far as the legal situation, I'm sure that they're right. I will say this, though, that while this particular type of case is not binding, what has become very prevalent and what has become a trend is judges coming in and overriding the NC Local judges coming in and overriding the NCAA based upon what the NCAA thinks are the rules that they have for their athletes. So while your guys are talking about something that they can individualize and say, this might not happen again with gambling. This might not happen again with whatever it is happening over and over again. And there is a trend line there. And that trend line has now led to, at first it was you can't play for 19 years. At first it was you can't be 47. At first it was this. Now it is you can gamble on your own team. So go back to your home.

[Joel Anderson]

People are already doing it.

[Van Lathan]

So go back to your homies and tell them that. Sure, while we might not get. But this trend of local judges coming in saying this organization, however fucked up and terrible it is, cannot maintain what they think is a competitive ecosystem in their sport and that somebody can get brought from somewhere else, sit on a bench and say, no, you can gamble on your squad and then go play.

[Joel Anderson]

That is too bad.

[Van Lathan]

And it's too bad over and over and over again, too bad. Stop watching sports.

[Joel Anderson]

Stop watching Sports. If you don't believe in it, I'm sorry.

[Van Lathan]

Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna live. But the, the whole. There's a. There's a weirdness to this that I don't understand. Yeah. This is a deal. This is a deal. Is it the biggest deal? Is it the end of me watching college football? No, but why in the fuck would we act like this is okay and this is not a thing?

[Joel Anderson]

Nobody's okay. Nobody.

[Van Lathan]

Like. No, but I'm okay then. Cool. So. But what I'm saying is this is fucked up. What happened is fucked up. Now swords.

[Joel Anderson]

B.

[Van Lathan]

Look, and I will, I will. I will say this. When you read this and you look at the way Sorsby is being treated, there's also something else here. If you want to really get into it, Joe. There's a tremendous amount of privilege, a tremendous amount of privilege that Brendan Sorsby is operating with in this particular situation. Brendan Sorsby, like, if you. If, since we're here, Brendan Sorsby is being infant. Infantile. I can never say that word. What is it?

[Tate Frazier]

Infantilized.

[Joel Anderson]

Infantile.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, y' all said it different. Brendan Swordsby is being infantilized. Brendan Sorsby, who is a 23 year old man, right, he's 22 or 23, right. He's being treated like a babe straight out of the womb that had no idea what the fuck was going on, that needs all of this help and support and all of this to get over the fact that he fucked up. Now, if this was Jaden Wilson McSorsby or if this was Darius, you would see a different way that people even come to this story. And I know that everybody's gonna get pissed off when I'm saying that. But even this, with the billionaire money that's behind him, with the huge Texas Tech investment that's behind him, with the way that guys like Brendan Sorsby are treated when they fucking do crime, when they do the thing that is the thing that you're not supposed to do when they do it, the way they're treated after that is another thing that if you want to get all political with, is indicative of a clear bias in American sports culture. And that is also true. So what I'm saying is for all of this stuff, I don't fucking get it. I don't think it's right from the competition standpoint. I don't think it's right from the standpoint of who Sorsby is and what Texas Tech is doing. I think the. I think the Rules should be the same for everyone.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah. I mean, again, it comes back to just when I was growing up and my mama would say, son, you can't do what they do. Or when I say to the coaches, you know, they're going to fire your black ass. I understand the reality of the situation

[Van Lathan]

that Brendan advocating for it is able.

[Joel Anderson]

No, I'm not. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. Listen, listen, you know, if you don't ever want to see this happen again, and I don't either, man, tell them to stop fucking around with the Protect, Protect College Sports act and let the kids unionize. You'll never have to deal with it again. You can make your own rules. And then the kids can be like, they'll sign up and if they do this shit, they'll be out. You'll never have to worry about it again. You'll never have to be concerned about the integrity of the game because they'll

[Tate Frazier]

have the power to the cba.

[Joel Anderson]

Yes. So advocate for that if you really care about it.

[Tate Frazier]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

Completely, completely on your side. But when I'm saying with, with that, it's nothing to do with the fuck what we're talking about right now has to do with this particular case. So I, I get, I get what you're saying.

[Tate Frazier]

I, I wanted to just give an example from the past to kind of talk about just how like, normalized we've kind of gotten with that space in general. 2003. Let's take us back. Rick Neuheisel, head coach of the Washington football team at the time, was in a gambling pool for the NCAA tournament. Totally different sport.

[Joel Anderson]

I remember that.

[Tate Frazier]

And it came out that he was in this pool. It was like a neighborhood pool. Right. And he was asked about it from the administration. He said, he's not in the pool. Come to find out, he was in the pool. He was given the ultimatum, right, to resign, and if he stayed, he would get a two year show call. So we went from like being in a gambling pool for the NCAA tournament, which most people wouldn't even think of as a gambling pool, putting 20 bucks in on the NCAA tournament, to a two year show. Cause to now betting $90,000 on games is a two game suspension. Right. So, like, that's how normalized. Just to give an example in 20 years how far we've gone.

[Joel Anderson]

Do y' all really think Stories is

[Van Lathan]

gonna play this year? Yeah, he's gonna play. But, but I think, I think he's gonna play this year because we're losing. We're look, if the point. If the. If the. If the thing is, it was never that big of a deal anyway, fine. What is a big deal? I'm sick. I'm so sick of having conversations about what is a big deal. Like, I just. I just. Like, it's. We are. We live in such a varied and multifaceted society that what is a big deal to me is probably not going to be a big deal to you. What is the big deal to you is probably not going to be a big deal to me. I don't. What I do, though, what I do have an issue with is us getting together and understanding that compliance with commonly held rules. That is the way I deal with societal fairness. I don't want anything more than anyone else, but if it goes for me, then it goes for you, and if it goes for you, then it goes for me. And so forget that. That's a stupid thing to actually.

[Joel Anderson]

It's not a stupid thing.

[Van Lathan]

It's not a stupid thing. But what I will say is that's the best I can fucking do. And this is fucked up, okay?

[Joel Anderson]

If you're concerned about it happening, there's something you can do about it. There's a really easy. It may be logistically challenging in a lot of different ways, but there's a way to. To get at that and to.

[Tate Frazier]

There is an actionable item.

[Joel Anderson]

There is an action item that you can do and you can advocate for this so that. So the world you want to see exist can exist. Until then, if. If you. If you really are precious about the results of the games, you can free. Feel free not to watch them or whatever, just to accept the reality. That's all I'm saying.

[Jay Billis]

Yeah.

[Tate Frazier]

Well, let's see what Jay Billis is saying. We got Jay Billis. He's going to join us right now. We're going to talk more about this Sourceby situation. He's going to give us. Obviously, he's a lawyer, he's got some legal insights, and he's been one of the people that has talked about some of these issues with the NCAA for quite some time. So right after this, we're going to have Jay Billish join us, and we're gonna have another spirited conversation about Brendan Sourceby. All right, as promised, at the top of the show, to give us some expert analysis, we are bringing in ESPN's very own Jay Billis to join us to talk about this Soresby decision and the ramifications of said decision. Jay, thanks so much for joining the show, man.

[Jay Billis]

My pleasure.

[Tate Frazier]

Thanks for having Me, of course, we got a lot of questions to kind of work through here, but first and foremost, just your initial reaction when you saw the news come out. I know there was kind of a shock and all, and we don't get really unified responses in college sports, but it did seem like a very unified response from, you know, all different parties. Everyone kind of came together to show their frustration here. What was your thought when you saw this?

[Jay Billis]

I was surprised, but not shocked. This kind of thing happens, not necessarily in this sort of case. This is a case of first impression. As far as I know. There haven't been a lot of gambling cases where a player sort of accused of operating in the gambling space, especially on his own sport, and so to my understanding, on his own team, would sue the NCAA in a local court, local state court. But you know, the NCAA loses these cases from time to time on a lower court level and they usually, when it deals with some of their rules, they win on appeal. And give you an example, Charles Bentiako earlier this year at Alabama, the player who had played at Alabama, went into the NBA draft, didn't get drafted, play in the G League, and then came back. Well, he won an injunction to be able to play and played like three games. And then it got overturned on, on an appeal by the ncaa. And similar to the Sorsby case, you know, they're, they're. Look, I'm not trying to cast aspersions on anyone when I say this but, but you know, everybody's got their hair on fire over this and you're like, relax, the games aren't till August and he's not going to play in the first two if this injunction holds anyway. So there's plenty of time for the appeal of this ruling. And my sense is once it gets to a three judge panel, my understanding it says in Amarillo, Texas, a three judge panel, it'll hear an expedited appeal. My sense is it gets overturned. But it's just one case and you know, with regard to this one player, I mean, if say, just for argument's sake, the temporary injunction is not overturned, it's upheld on appeal and the kid gets to play, he's still got to win at trial. And you know, it may obviate the need for a trial. Maybe he dismisses the case. If he plays the season, it doesn't go to trial. The trial schedule for February is my understanding. But it's not like every college player is going to go, okay, now I can beat Pete Rose. It's not that big of a Deal. And, and you know, the Big Ten saying, we're not going to play Texas Tech in any sport. Like, come on, man, like, so you're gonna, what? You're gonna. Your cross country runners can't run against Texas Tech. What they do wrong. I mean, everybody needs to take a step back a little bit, let the process play out. It's not that big of a deal.

[Van Lathan]

Am I to understand that you think that there's been an overreaction to this and you don't see this as being a, like a huge thing at all? Just before I ask my next question.

[Jay Billis]

Yeah, so. So this particular ruling doesn't have value as precedent. It's not that other courts and other states have to go by this ruling and say, hey, wait a minute, the judge in, in Lubbock, Texas, now, the original judge had to recuse himself or chose to recuse himself because I think he went to Texas Tech. And so they had a retired judge that they have procedures there when someone recuses. A judge recuses himself. So it's not like other courts. It's not like a Supreme Court ruling, United States Supreme Court, where everybody, every court now has to fight, follow that precedent under stare decisis. They don't have to do that. So it's really not that big of a deal. And look, I'm not saying it's small and it's not jarring, and I don't agree with it, but what it shows is, you know, the NCAA is vulnerable now. They used to get deference from the courts, but because their rules have been so screwed up for so long and they've had so many missteps and lacks of, you know, lack of leadership for so long, they're not getting the same treatment in the courts. They're just like every, every other business right now. And they gotta. They gotta prove they're right. And there's no collective bargaining agreement for them to rely upon here. So, you know, they got beat here and they were going up against Jeffrey Kessler, who never loses and never loses to them. They should know that by now. But, but that. All that said, and look, I don't know how to predict basketball games, let alone predict what a court's gonna do. But my sense is this has a very good chance of being overturned on appeal.

[Van Lathan]

Do you think that it's important that players in any sport, be it the ncaa, excuse me, NCAA football, basketball, baseball, the professional leagues. Do you think it's important to set a red line for an athlete, gambling on their own team?

[Jay Billis]

Absolutely, I do. And I think that's a pretty simple thing. And I make the comparison, if you will. Just saying, like, look, alcohol, drinking alcohol is legal if you're 21 in the United States, but it's not legal to drive while you're intoxicated. That's a pretty bright line, and it's really not that hard. And look, if Sorsby were gambling on U.S. open golf and tennis, I don't think people get that worked up over it. I think it's probably a pretty good idea that athletes avoid gambling on sports, period. I don't think they should do it. I don't think coaches should do it. I don't think administrators who work in athletics should do it. And I don't think officials should do it. But the officials have a, you know, usually have agreements that, that state that, and the players have the rules. Like, to me, this is not that. Not that complicated. And, and I, you know, in this instance, I support the ncaa. I think they're right in their judgment to say, look, you cross this line. And I'm sensitive to the, you know, gambling addiction argument and the mental health argument. I'm sensitive to that and empathetic. But that doesn't mean that. That there shouldn't be a sanction for it. I think every player knows what they can and can't do. And I don't care how young these players are, whether they're 18 or 22 or 27, they know they're not supposed to do it. And once you cross that line, I think it's okay for this particular sanction. I actually support it. But. But that. And that being said, there is a contradiction involved in college and professional sports because all of these entities are in bed with gambling companies, right? Whether it's draftking, you name it. And I'm not casting aspersions on gambling companies, but holy cow, like, you know, it's embedded in our society, and I think I'm okay with it being legal. I don't have any argument about legal gambling. I think it's fine. I would rather have it above board than, you know, kind of in the dark where it used to be. Because now if somebody, you know, if you, if there's any sort of point shaving activity, and I don't think there's much of that stuff, but it does happen. Those, they find out about it right away. They work in tandem with law enforcement agencies. They're the ones that sniff it out. It's not like the FBI is tapping phones and finding all this out. The gambling companies alert them to it. So there are some positives to it as well.

[Joel Anderson]

You know, Jay, just for clarity's sake, you've been saying that you think there'll be an expedited hearing. Do you think that's going to happen before week one of the regular season, or is that just going to be an expedited hearing that will happen before the scheduled trial?

[Jay Billis]

No, I think it'll happen. I think it'll happen before the. The season, yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, wow.

[Jay Billis]

It's gonna. It's gonna go relatively quickly. It's not. You know, I think the court will look favorably upon the time issue here and try to decide the appeal of this. This temporary injunction or preliminary injunction, however. However you want to term it. Because, you know, in order to get a preliminary injunction or temporary injunction, you have to show a likelihood of success on the merits of trial. I. I'm hard pressed to figure out how. How Sorsby is going to win a trial. I don't think he would. And you got to show irreparable harm. I think that's fairly easy to show that, you know, if. If this goes to trial and he can't play, it turns out he wins, you know, then what difference does it make? His career's over, you know, that he misses a season, that kind of thing. But also, there's. There's a component of these injunctions that say, you know, you can't. Can't do anything that's going to be against public policy. And I can't imagine it's good public policy to, you know, say it's okay to gamble on your sport when your sport expressly prohibits it. To me, that. That violates public policy. But, you know, reasonable minds may be able to differ on that. I don't know.

[Tate Frazier]

And, Jay, it is fascinating because you mentioned the ncaa. You're on their side in this case, and you've been one of the people that has, you know, kind of pointed out the hypocrisy with the ncaa, with the rules. And you have been a big proponent of the cba. And if they did have a CBA in place, at least my understanding is if they went to court, right, they would have like what Goodell had with Deflate Gate when they went after him and they were like, based on the cba, he actually has the right to make this call because of the state, the cba. So if the NCAA did have that with the players, they would actually have more power and more autonomy in this situation. So is this. This like a. A rant, like a world where this Leads to a conversation where we actually do have a CBA so we can avoid this in the future. Like, is that something that could actually lead to some positive change?

[Jay Billis]

It could. But, but in rather than look at it that way, my, my belief is the NCAA is looking at this by saying, hey, Congress, look at, look at this. This is why we need this most recent Senate proposed bill into law so we can have an antitrust exception and we can do whatever we want. And to me, that's the exact wrong way to go about this. To me, Congress giving the NCAA an antitrust exemption, it's like a bank robber saying, hey, every time I break into the bank, I get arrested and charged. Holy cow. I'm tired of facing all going into court every time I break into a bank. So going to Congress and saying, hey, give me, you know, give me a law that allows me to do this. And Congress says, you know, good idea. We want to eliminate all this legal action against you. So bank robber, here are the keys to the bank. You don't have to break in anymore. Like that. That's, that's what they, they'd be doing by giving the NCAA an antitrust exemption. And so your point on the CBA or acba? If I'm the ncaa, what I ask Congress for is something reasonable. I say give us a, to collective bargaining. Because right now there are some hurdles to collective bargaining. There are public and private institutions. You got all these different conferences. The players don't really have any one entity that could represent them right now. I mean, there's the National Collegiate Players Association. There are things that could do it, but it's not, it's not without hurdles. And Congress could give them that. The other thing Congress could do is Congress could exempt all college athletes and future college athletes from the National Labor Relations act and from the Fair Labor Standards Act. And then athletes could sign multi year contracts with schools and schools could pay them directly and they wouldn't be employees where they could sign as independent contractors. Because the NCAA for some reason is deathly afraid of the players being employees. Well, I, I don't understand the problem. I mean, I went to duke. Duke's got 30,000 employees. You don't think they could absorb another 500 and figure it out?

[Joel Anderson]

They could.

[Jay Billis]

And not all the, not all the athletes would they want to sign to multi year contracts. But that's what Congress should be looking at. Not at handing a serial antitrust violator an antitrust exemption.

[Van Lathan]

I'm confused on something. So you agree that players betting on their own teams is a red line yet you think there's been an overreaction to how people are. I guess college football culture is responding to this judge essentially disintegrating that red line. So I guess what would have been an appropriate reaction to a judge essentially saying that you can bet on your own team and serve a two game suspension against two teams that aren't going to be competitive with your squad and come back and play the whole rest of the season.

[Jay Billis]

That's a great question. So with regard to Sourceby himself, I don't know Sorsby. I know the circumstances, I know what I've read and all that. But to me, rather than cast aspersions on a judge who actually listened to argument and made a ruling, I'm not disagree with the ruling, but I'm not calling the judge some crazy person. There's an appeal process that it's standard. It's not that big of a deal. This happens in court proceedings. So rather than lose my mind over that. And again, this has no precedential value that's going to bind other courts. If there were another player in another state that took the same action legally that Sorsby did. But here's what, where I think the NCAA should be losing its mind. But you don't hear any of this. Like I haven't heard Charlie Baker say a word about this. I haven't heard other administrators like why aren't they calling out the president of Texas Tech saying wait a minute, why are you taking this particular player on your team? Like why are you doing that? Like this guy crossed a line, he violated a rule and you're now it's Sorsby who's brought the action. It's not the school. But clearly they want him to play. They've got him on the roster. They, they want him to play. And you know, it's not like they're, they're, they, they, they're the ones that are suspending him and he's suing the school and, and the NCAA in this. I, I think, I think that's where some of the energy should go. You know, I get kind of tired honestly. It's not that they're not really good people, but I get kind of tired at presidents, you know, standing behind podiums, waving their finger at the public, talking about values and integrity and then they don't show any, like when are you going to show some, you know, they may talk, they may be talking behind this, this president's back or talking to him privately, but nobody's saying anything publicly that I've seen. And maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen it. And, and when, you know, when I mentioned the overreaction, you know, I felt like. I think it was the Big Ten that said we're not going to play. You know, we're. We're talking about not playing Texas Tech in any sport. No Big Ten team is going to play Texas Tech. That, that's an. I find that to be an overreaction. Wait for the appeal. Let's see where this goes. I mean, this is not, it's not like football season started last week, you know, and he's going to be playing against Texas on Saturday in the cotton ball. It's not, It's. We got time here. Let's. Let's be a little less frenzied and just sort of take a step back on it.

[Van Lathan]

Any appeal is likely to take place either deep into the season or after the season. This is it. Like.

[Jay Billis]

No, it's going to happen relatively soon.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I mean, there could be an appeal from the nc, from the ncaa. From what I understand, for all intents and purposes, this issue is settled. No, for all intent. Okay.

[Jay Billis]

The NCAA has already noticed an appeal, so they filed an appeal. And I believe. I don't know what the court docket in Amarillo looks like. So I'm not saying, I'm not saying it's going to be tomorrow or next week or next month, but I'm pretty confident that an issue like this is going to be heard, heard before Sorsby plays. I'm confident of that. That doesn't mean anything, but, but this is not settled. This is not final and similar to when Charles Bediaco was playing. And I think there was a similar overreaction to that. You know, it made it seem like, okay, now every school is going to be trolling the G League looking for players and you know, somebody signs a player who's. Somebody has a player on their team who's 26, 27 years old, they make it seem, seem like, you know, LeBron James is going to come back and go to Ohio State.

[Tate Frazier]

Like, same with James Najee earlier in the year.

[Jay Billis]

Yeah, exactly. Like James Naji averaged like two points a game. What are we worried about? And he had never been enrolled in college. And plus the NCAA made him eligible. He didn't go to court. The NCAA said he could play. And that's sort of the thing like, like, you know, and look, I'm fine, like criticize the rules and all that stuff, but I thought too much Came down on the player there. And same with Betty Ako. Like, what are these guys really doing? And Sorsby, same thing. Like, I don't mind him, you know, sort of going to court, and if he feels like he's been wronged or whatever, like, fight it out in court, that's fine. But, you know, we kind of made Najee and Betty Ako out to be some kind of criminals, and they're not. They're just young people that want to play college basketball. It's not that big of a deal.

[Joel Anderson]

Jay, just to, to take it further, to shift the conversation forward just to Tad, you know, your, your ESPN colleague Nick Saban has said that this is a system that badly needs fixing, Right? And he's talking about nil, the transfer portal. And in combination with this, they talked about the existential threat to college sports. What do you actually think is the biggest existential threat to college sports? If there is one that exists.

[Jay Billis]

There isn't one. There isn't one. Like the. I don't know what Nick is talking about. Honestly, I respect him greatly. Reasonable minds could differ on these issues. You don't have to, you know, nobody has to like everything that's going on. But I, I, maybe I missed it, but I never heard coaches of his, you know, his generation complaining as the money shot up and they were making tens of millions of dollars every year. You know, I didn't hear anybody saying that. Boy, this is totally out of control. We can't. Existential problem. What about the wrestling team? Nobody said that. And when coaches are breaking contracts to go to other schools and not playing in their bowl games and all that, you know, I didn't hear other coaches excoriating, you know, these, these fellow coaches, you know, everything, the business is fine when my money goes up, but, boy, when the players start making money and make decisions, boy, now it's an existential threat. Because I went and look, this has been happening since 1984. Last time the NCAA was before the Supreme Court and they could. After that, it's called the Board of Regents case. And all the schools could sell their meteorites and conferences pulled them together, and the money started exploding. The coaches said, man, we need to back this off. We're making too much money. Just wrong. And what about other sports? What about women's sports? None of them said that. And. But now the players are making money. And I heard recently, and I don't think he was complaining. I think it was Danny Hurley. I hope I got this right, but I think it was Danny Hurley. That said, you know, his, his roster was going to cost him $10 million next year. And, and again I, I don't think it was a complaint, it was just kind of stating a fact or the state of the game. And you know, my first reaction was the coaching staff makes more than that. Like the coaching staff makes more than that. In what multi billion dollar sport does, do the players make less than the coaches? And, and look, these players right now are undervalued, they're not overvalued. And, and if you want a salary cap collectively bargain. Right, because your point earlier about a CBA and, and rules, you know, like rules in the Sourcebees situation, the players would be agreeing to those rules too. And you know, the NCAA president be able to be the ultimate arbiter of this and maybe arbitration or something. All that would be agreed upon by the players. And that's what this system is in need of. If you want to restrict someone and restrict their earning power and especially in an environment where look what these schools are paying and how much it's going up, they want, they're going to compete for the best players. They're proving that the market is proving that if you want to restrict it, you've got to get the players to agree to the restriction. So if you want a maximum salary or a salary cap, then you gotta, you gotta start guaranteeing a minimums and work conditions and all these other things. They have to agree to it for, for it to be fair and worthwhile. Because even this latest bill, I think it was Senator Cruz and Senator Coons and one other Cantwell I think can't. Well, yeah, you know, isn't it interesting? There's not one control on coaches salaries in that thing. Not one, not one control on facility spending. Not one. The only control they have is, is we're going to control the players. And that to me is wrong to the point of being immoral.

[Van Lathan]

Back to the source. We think real quick granted that the NCAA has a chance to appeal. They're very likely will lose the appeal. Right? They, they were very likely lose the appeal.

[Jay Billis]

I think though what happened, I think they'll win. You may be right.

[Van Lathan]

I think that they're very likely going to lose the appeal. Let's say that they do lose and let's say that a player that bet on his team while he was a member of the team plays college football next year. Okay. To me that does seem like not necessarily an existential threat, but a very deep cultural threat, not just to the NCAA but to any sport. Because in any sport, with any group of people, any group of players or participants, once something is deemed sort of acceptable, it creeps into people's minds as being okay to do this is so beyond the pale to me of anything that should be halfway accepted in any sport, like the competitive integrity of that sport or whatever it is. We could go to quiz show, to games that were on television. The moment it seems like the competitive integrity of that is shot at or there are holes in it, you start to lose faith from the audience and from other people and really the ins and outs of the sport. I can't think of a worse turn of events than somebody gambling on their team and not suffering any consequences for it.

[Joel Anderson]

I'm.

[Van Lathan]

Joel is with you on this. I can't explain to me why I'm overreacting, because with all the things that

[Jay Billis]

we're talking about, you're not overreacting. You're calmly stating a very compelling argument. We're on different sides that we think what we think of how the appeal is going to go, but none of us know, like, nobody knows how the appeal is going to go. But let's say you're right and Sorsby wins and the NCAA loses. This, this appeal that they filed, that's one player, one court. It has no value beyond that. So it's not like it's a free pass for players in other states or other areas to go do this and think that they're going to, they're going to walk.

[Tate Frazier]

They can't point to that precedent.

[Joel Anderson]

Right?

[Jay Billis]

No, no, it is not going to work. And, and so I'm not, I'm not overly concerned about that. And I'll give you an example, and I hope this is a good one. A couple years ago, Terence Shannon at Illinois was accused of committing a crime that he grabbed some girl in a bar in Lawrence, Kansas, and Illinois suspended him while the charges were pending. Shannon sued the University of Illinois for an injunction so that he could play because he was claiming that Illinois violated their own policies, that he didn't get a, a hearing before he was suspended and all that, and he was reinstated and played in the NCAA tournament and all that. Now, the charges turned out to be bogus on Shannon. They were completely bogus. But, but Illinois, I mean, and I kind of agreed with Illinois. Like, you gotta. You got a player who's been accused of a crime while that's pending, you know, it seems reasonable that they could, they could hold him out of competition, you know, and not wear, you know, the Illinois brand while that those charges are pending. But, you know, Shannon was right in that they violated their own rules and how they handled the adjudication of his matter on campus. Now, I. That was one school. I don't think other people were out there going, well, I can go commit a crime now and still play. You know, I don't think that opened the door for that. And similarly, I feel the same way here. I don't think other people are going, well, now I can go do that. I think most reasonable folks are going, I wouldn't want to do that anyway. You know, they know it's. They know it's wrong. And, you know, Sorsby, to my understanding, didn't commit a crime. He just. He just violated an NCAA rule and violated kind of a code of ethics that most people. Most people internalize, naturally. Like, I think most people, if you ask them, without even knowing what the NCAA rule is, they would say, do you think it's okay to gamble on your own team? I think most. Most people, including people of that age, would say, no, I don't think that's okay. I think I could do that and get away with it.

[Tate Frazier]

Goes back to the black socks in 1919. It feels like we all know that story, right?

[Jay Billis]

Yeah. Yeah. But. But the black socks think they were shaving points, right?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

On the field. Right.

[Jay Billis]

Yeah. And this, to my understanding, sbe did not violate any law here. And maybe I'm wrong in that, but I. I don't. I don't under. I don't know that he did violate any. Any law, because if he did, then, you know, he'd have criminal issues to deal with. And I think if he did that, you would see. You would see law enforcement agencies going after him. And if that were. If he were in any legal jeopardy that way, I doubt you'd see him bringing an action against the NCAA to, you know, kind of bring that. You know, bring that kind of thing forward where he'd have to testify under

[Joel Anderson]

oath about, you know, I fanboyed out before we went on the air here. But, you know, there's this thing that happens on our show where the week before, like, the week after, we have an argument on the show, right? And I'll have the. You know, I'll be making a case, and everybody's hating on me or whatever. And then the following week, the guest or the expert will agree with my argument from the week before. And that's from the surprise of Jermaine Dupri dating Janet Jackson to tussling in the locker room, which I'm sure you know about from your days at Duke or the players being more important or valuable than the coaches. So I just want to thank you for helping me keep up my win streak. This belt to ass that I'll be giving them. And because, you know, like, they just, I guess they have to hear it out of somebody else's mouth, not mine.

[Jay Billis]

Well, you should do what I would commend doing. What I like to do is when I'm proven right, which isn't all the time. But I say, look, I don't like Tang. I don't like saying I told you so. I love.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, well, this is what I'll say to that, Jay. Number one, what Joel is doing right now is called dick riding. And that like

[Joel Anderson]

it don't have to be like that. It don't have to be.

[Van Lathan]

He started it started before he even got on the thing and now it continues. I disagree with. I still think that in college football that the stability of a coach is probably more valuable than the players that come in, which is why players, coaches are so valuable specifically in that sport. And I'll also say that even in the example that you just brought up. Sure. I'm sure players knew before and they knew after that they couldn't commit crimes and go out and that would be okay. I guess the question that I would wonder is whether or not universities took a hint from that case and said, we can't suspend players while they're under investigation. What I would wonder is how the fact that Illinois in that situation was that was rebuke or that was rebuked or that was overturned, whether or not other schools said that, hey, we're not going to be able to do that. And if you saw other guys playing maybe while they were under investigation or stuff like that, which is always sort of controversial when they do that, whether or not that did change something in the ecosystem of college football, which is the question I would ask. But more to the point, all of this, and you know, we can volleyball, the Brendan Sworesby thing back and forth is this is such a fundamental rule, such a fundamental ethical understanding that to me there's almost no way to look at it and not look at it as sort of a redefining of what we consider to be okay culturally in the sport, Right. Because if you do something and there is no consequence, and I am not a law and order guy or anything like that, if you do something and there is no consequence, if you skirt consequence, if you avoid or evade consequence for something, then there is a Bat signal that goes out that says he got away with this.

[Jay Billis]

No, I agree with you.

[Van Lathan]

It will be treated differently. Before, this was the red line of. Not NCAA football or baseball or basketball. This was the red line of competition sports. It is simply not that anymore. And there's no real. It's not. He got. He.

[Joel Anderson]

It. It's.

[Van Lathan]

He got away with it.

[Jay Billis]

But you're talking about one player. You're still talking about one player, and

[Joel Anderson]

he hasn't gotten away with it yet.

[Jay Billis]

Going. Yeah, exactly.

[Van Lathan]

He hasn't been punished for it yet. He's actually. He has gotten away with it. We're. We're waiting to see if there's a decision that will revoke the fact that he's gotten away with it. As it stands now, he's gotten away with it.

[Joel Anderson]

If you were Brendan Sorsby, would you think you got away with it? Right now they're going through all this. You really.

[Van Lathan]

Okay? Yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah. Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Without a doubt. I would think that I. If I was Brendan Sorsby right now, and this is not me wanting to kick Brendan Sorsby in his ass or anything like that, but if I was Brendan Swords right now, I would think that I had gotten away with it. I would think that I had.

[Jay Billis]

I think if he's looking at it the right way. Here's what I think. If he's looking at it the right way, I think what sbe should be thinking is I got over the first hurdle to be able to play, but there's still other hurdles, and the appeal being the next one. And so this is not over. And similar to the Betty Ako case, this is the same kind of thing we heard when Betty Ako won his injunction and then it was overturned for. For two weeks or whatever it was. They were like, oh, my God, we got G league. G league now. And, you know, LeBron's coming back, and Kareem Abdul is going to go back to UCLA and play his freshman year over again. You know, stuff like that. But to your point, also about, you know, the Shannon situation, what did happen after that was every school went back and looked at their policies to make sure that they could do what they wanted to do and know exactly what their procedures were and make sure that they followed their own procedures. And if they were difficult to follow, they changed them. So to me, that was all a positive.

[Tate Frazier]

And.

[Jay Billis]

And especially looking back on it, you know, Shannon didn't do anything wrong. And. And it turned out the charges were bogus. So for. For him, I. I think the legal process actually worked the way you would hope that it would.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, he was misidentified, right?

[Jay Billis]

Yeah, Right.

[Van Lathan]

Which is good. But there was a lasting change from it happening, right?

[Joel Anderson]

There was something.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Jay Billis]

There's an argument to be made that if, that if, if Illinois had followed their own procedures and still suspended him, that things would have worked the way they were supposed to. And I'm cool with that. But, you know, there's one thing about these rules. Like, I think you mentioned that you're not a law and order guy. I think you are, actually. And I think all of us are. Like, I'm a law and order guy. But no, I want the rules to make sense. You know, you are, you know, so I don't think you should get the death penalty for a rolling stop. You know, the rules should make sense. And Too often the NCAA's rules don't make sense. In this case they do in my view. In my view.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah. And that's how they keep ended up in court. But, Jay, we appreciate you coming to the show and breaking this down.

[Van Lathan]

Thank you, Jay.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, man. Appreciate you, man.

[Tate Frazier]

We appreciate you, you know, trying to walk us through this whole situation and hopefully we can have you back on the show. We could talk about some more fun things. We can talk about. Jeezy, at some point, we can talk about, you know, NBA draft potentially. So a lot of better things in our future. And thanks again for coming on the show, man.

[Jay Billis]

You tell me when. And Joel, don't, don't, don't stop the ass kissing. Don't let them talk

[Joel Anderson]

ass kicking too.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, don't stop the ass kissing. Joe, he likes, right?

[Joel Anderson]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

No, no, no.

[Tate Frazier]

Thanks. J.

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[Tate Frazier]

All right, there you have it. Jay Billis. Great to have him on the show. Great to have a voice, very powerful voice in college sports and has been talking about these issues for quite some time. And he gets a lot of pushback for talking about these issues. But obviously they are issues and it's good to hear his voice over on the matter.

[Joel Anderson]

Is he your favorite Duke guy? Say who's your who? Who's your favorite Duke guy?

[Tate Frazier]

I mean, Jay's definitely up there. We did the Maui Invitational together. Jay's, you know, as far as, like, personally, probably my favorite Duke guy as far as dealing face to face. Who else would be in my Ryan Kelly, great dude guy. After the 2022 Final Four ran Into Ryan Kelly gave me a nice respectful.

[Van Lathan]

Freeze. Freeze. Real quick. Real quick, Joel.

[Joel Anderson]

Yo.

[Van Lathan]

Real quick. Do like this. Do like this. Oh, okay. Cool.

[Joel Anderson]

What was it? It's my. It's the white.

[Van Lathan]

No, the. Jay left something, so.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, get. Okay. That's some ho. That's some ho.

[Tate Frazier]

You know, Got him.

[Joel Anderson]

That's some ho. I mean. I mean, I watch high learning all the time. I watch your high learning, and you be kissing ass all the time talking about this person here, people you love. Now all of a sudden, I can't be a fan of Jay Billis.

[Van Lathan]

I will say one person. I could say that that's true of. I like, I got a love for Ray J that people don't understand. Ray J. Truth. I got all the love for Ray. I can say. I can say. Okay, so. So I give you that.

[Tate Frazier]

I remember you went on CNN one time and you said Ray J was like one of the. I can't remember what the topic was.

[Joel Anderson]

You're like, are you out on Ray J now? Are you finally. Because, I mean, he did the Spencer Pratt thing. Are you done with him now?

[Van Lathan]

I got to be, bro. Ray J.

[Tate Frazier]

Everything Ray J does is somehow hilarious.

[Van Lathan]

He's. Yeah, I can't. I can't. I can't buy. But that is true. Was great, though.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah. He was great to have Jay on the show. Appreciate him joining and hanging out with us for a little bit. Let's do our top five headlines of the week, and then we'll get out of here. Responding and coming off of what we were talking about with Source B. Georgia and Nebraska's athletic departments have instructed sports coaches of all their teams not to schedule Texas Tech following the Sourcebees following Sourceby's eligibility ruling. Joel, do you buy that Georgia, Nebraska, maybe some other schools are going to try to ban playing Texas Tech?

[Joel Anderson]

I mean, I don't know how far they were on their schedules, but I. I've been following Texas Tech a long time. The only time they played Nebraska was when they were in the same conference, as far as I understand.

[Van Lathan]

I don't.

[Joel Anderson]

I cannot remember a time in my life where they've ever played Georgia in football. So.

[Tate Frazier]

Feels like a moral high ground. That's actually not.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, don't threaten them with a good time. You know, and look, and for the Big 12, too, if you don't want to play them, do it back out. You should follow your conscience and pay the money back to Fox Sports that you'll lose in your TV deal for not playing Texas Tech. I would love for you guys to live up your belief. So if you don't play them, if you're so mad at Texas Tech, you can. There's a. You can make a stand and be willing to say there's no amount of money that would make us sacrifice our integrity by playing against Brendan Sorsby. They should absolutely do it. I hope. I can't wait for the Big 12 to line up and do that. Amazing the public statements they can make about nonsense. Anyway, they playing.

[Van Lathan]

They playing. Everybody's gonna play.

[Tate Frazier]

It'd be great if they played each other in the cfe. Like, if it was Georgia, everybody's gonna play Texas Tech in the first round of the cfp. That'd be great.

[Van Lathan]

But I will say this. Is Billy there, because we just getting more and more evidence that Billy's flex situation raised the rules for Billy's flex situation. So we have, in one month, a couple of different examples of where Billy's flex situation shit could work. It could have worked with Texas playing Texas Tech. Remember when Texas Tech fights? And it could work now if people didn't want to play, they could flex the game out and everybody. They might have not even played Sorsby if they realized that the flex was an option. Because they'd have been like, hey, maybe these don't play us if we put Sourceby on the field.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Which they haven't yet. But I'm Billy.

[Tate Frazier]

I mean, it's hard being a visionary, but it's fine. Have you come around on the idea at least?

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Tate Frazier]

No, except that it's a decent idea.

[Joel Anderson]

I think I was wrong about it. It. I think that it is a good idea in retrospect. Now, I think that the likelihood of it happening is very low. But I can see the argument for it now.

[Tate Frazier]

I mean, the players can gamble on their teams and play now. Like, what do you think?

[Joel Anderson]

This is crazy. I mean, again, Jamar. Jamarcus Styles at Illinois State. Please don't believe that you could gamble on your team and get away with it, because it might not work out the same way for you. I promise. I promise you. Like, it's not. Everybody is not going to get the Brendan Sourcebee treatment. Everybody ain't gonna be able to afford Jeffrey Kessler for one. Like, that's just not. That is an attorney that only a few people can send in there.

[Tate Frazier]

Did you feel bad or good when our guest Jay Billis, signed off by telling you to keep kissing ass? You did flip it, Joel. You said you're kicking ass. I thought that was.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, I did Say I was kicking ass. That's true. That's true. I thought that's what he meant too,

[Tate Frazier]

but you know, that's not what he said.

[Van Lathan]

But they don't. They don't ever respect that. That's the problem with kissing ass is like. It's like you kiss ass and then the person's ass that you kissing, they don't ever respect it.

[Joel Anderson]

I don't know if that's true or not.

[Tate Frazier]

No, it is true. I learned that with Jimmy Kimmel.

[Van Lathan]

Definitely true.

[Tate Frazier]

How much I love to show you

[Joel Anderson]

don't think sometimes ass kissing doesn't work out for people. I mean, that. That to me seems. I think story.

[Van Lathan]

I think it works out. Hey, man, Joe, every day, every week, you want to really go deep on that issue. That's a different one.

[Tate Frazier]

Joe needs to go on higher learning for something.

[Van Lathan]

But what I'm saying is I like. I. Jomi, what's up? Yeah, what's happening on the lights on. Jomy's here. Y' all want to say what's up to join? I actually think Jeremy come say what's up to the tailgate people. I don't know what the.

[Joel Anderson]

The. Yo, what the. Is happening, right?

[Van Lathan]

The lights off. I thought y' all was recording.

[Joel Anderson]

What's up, man?

[Tate Frazier]

Yo, what's up, Joey?

[Joel Anderson]

Good to see you, bro. What's up, man?

[Van Lathan]

How do you guys feel about gambling in college sports? Get the out.

[Joel Anderson]

This is the second time.

[Van Lathan]

Isn't that the show.

[Joel Anderson]

This is the second time because he. He showed up at your house one time on the live stream. Jomi, you like, kind of.

[Van Lathan]

That's right.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah. You kind of like a floating recurring character.

[Van Lathan]

I don't see all the college football fans out here.

[Tate Frazier]

Here.

[Van Lathan]

I know Lincoln Riley. I know you're watching. Your time is up, big dog. Get the fuck out of here. But no, but, no. I don't think that ass kissers actually. Let's put this to the audience. I don't think that ass kissers really respect the people that's kissing they ass. I don't think they do, Joel. You think that they do?

[Joel Anderson]

I mean, I guess it depends on what you mean. Like, I mean, so there's a difference between whether or not they respect you and whether you will prosper. But because you kiss ass, you know, and sometimes that's the question.

[Tate Frazier]

They never respect you.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I don't think ask kisses respect people that kiss.

[Joel Anderson]

I mean, I gotta be honest. I. I like Jay. I'm a big Jay B fan. But what do you get out of it, though, because.

[Tate Frazier]

Listen, let me finish. Get out of telling J Bill he's your favorite esp.

[Joel Anderson]

If he doesn't. If he doesn't respect me. If he doesn't respect me, I mean, I can't. I can't do nothing about it, man. I just have to live with it.

[Tate Frazier]

But he may have respected you without the ass kiss.

[Joel Anderson]

I mean, I just. I'm so. I'm so sorry that Jay Billis doesn't respect me. If that's the case, it's also way out. I mean, I've got, you know, I promise you, it wouldn't crack my, like, top 300 concerns. So I'd have to.

[Van Lathan]

I get that. J. For no reason.

[Joel Anderson]

Stand by the fact that J. Billis is the best analyst at espn and I think he's great and he should be in more things. And I had to tell him that to his face because I. I skated it on Blue sky once.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my God.

[Jay Billis]

Come on.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, I think there's, by the way, breaking news.

[Van Lathan]

Breaking news. Hold on.

[Joel Anderson]

I didn't hear that tape. Say it again.

[Van Lathan]

Breaking news.

[Tate Frazier]

You heard it.

[Van Lathan]

Chiefs are adding two years to Patrick Mahomes contract through 20, 33. $500 million, huh?

[Joel Anderson]

All right.

[Van Lathan]

60, 64 million dollars a year for. For Patrick Mahomes, man.

[Joel Anderson]

He's gonna be making just a little bit more than Pat McAfee, man. Patrick Mahomes gonna be making about the same amount of money.

[Tate Frazier]

It's good to be a Pat, bro.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, seriously, though, if I was McAfee, I stunt on him. If I was getting paid. If I was an analyst, getting paid like a ball player. Like a ball player. Because normally they don't. Right? Normally you. You throw somebody 20, 25 million, you the top of the heap, right?

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

But now if you. McAfee, you gotta look at you like, hey, Josh. Allen Little. Yeah,

[Tate Frazier]

Bro.

[Van Lathan]

You gotta look at, like, it's like, like, like what? You gotta look at Lamar Jackson like, yo, I'm kind of on you a little bit. Like, it's kind of. Yeah, yeah. You normally.

[Tate Frazier]

You don't.

[Van Lathan]

Doing the sport.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's not.

[Van Lathan]

He's.

[Joel Anderson]

He's got to be in the hot. In the 1% of people who get paid in the sports world. Right? Like, they can't be that many million a year. Yeah. Like, does Ronaldo make more money than Pat?

[Van Lathan]

I guess, yeah, he probably getting crazy, but he's almost 40. I mean, I think. No, he's over 40. I think Ronaldo right now might be the highest Paid athlete ever like per year, I think he might be the man. As far as that's concerned, he makes $300 million.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, okay. My bad. Okay, I guess that's different. Okay,

[Van Lathan]

according. According to this, which take this with a grain of salt, right? I didn't. I didn't go to my homeboy my claw with this. I went to Google AI over view. I went to home girl Gemini. According to this, He Ronaldo makes $300 million a year. He makes 235 million with his contract with the Saudi pro league. They paid him a crazy amount of money.

[Tate Frazier]

Forgot about that.

[Van Lathan]

And then off the field he makes another 65. So he going crazy.

[Tate Frazier]

So off the field he still makes around McAfee money.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Off the field he makes more than McAfee and just more then Patrick Mahomes is making now. So.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, $2 billion for his whole career.

[Joel Anderson]

Hey, man, my mom is locked outside the house. Let me. I gotta let her in. All right, just hold on one second.

[Tate Frazier]

Oh, God.

[Jay Billis]

Oh, my God, bro, that's so good.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, while Joe's. While Joe's talk. While Joe's here, we can do just random topics till he gets back because you only gone. What do you take? You look like you're a Cat's Eye fan. Do you like them?

[Tate Frazier]

Cat's Eye, that's like. I mean, I know who they are.

[Van Lathan]

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, all right.

[Van Lathan]

I just heard Yo's mom got at him a little bit. What is she.

[Tate Frazier]

She wasn't happy.

[Joel Anderson]

No. Well, I mean, she got in the house. She said that I can't. I can't get in the house. And none of the keys on the ring fit the kitchen or front door. And I said, they do use it. And then I was just like. And then she came in and she was in the house and I was like, she. I mean, she got in. Yeah, it did work. She didn't try all the keys, man.

[Tate Frazier]

Anyway, yeah, it happens. Well, good to have you back. Next headline, college football future power ranking through 2027. ESPN put these out. I'm going to read you the top five.

[Joel Anderson]

Okay.

[Tate Frazier]

Number one, Notre Dame as far as the future power rankings. Number two, Ohio State. Number three, Texas. Number four, Oregon. Number five, Georgia. Usual, usual suspects there for the most part. But Van, I want to get your thoughts on this. Lsu. I'm going down the list. They're number eight on the. On the list. Do you agree with that?

[Van Lathan]

That's about right.

[Joel Anderson]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, honestly, honestly, in. In the heyday, of the LSU run, you could look at the team being ranked like what Even fan expectation being ranked from somewhere between, I don't know, like in the top 10. And then every couple of years, five and 10, and then every couple of years making like a crazy run. That's normally what it was. Sometimes there were those crazy years where we were number two or number three and couldn't get over the hump. But mostly you're looking at a top 10 program, top 5ish program that every couple of years gets that team that can't be with. I don't have a problem with that. 8. I think it's more interesting that Notre Dame is number one. That I think that's really fucking interesting, man.

[Joel Anderson]

Is that, is that about where they've got stability at, Coach? They probably, I mean, I guess they'll probably get CJ Carr for another year. I mean, because I, I, I could.

[Tate Frazier]

This is like, this is forecasting the next decade based on my understanding.

[Joel Anderson]

Okay. I thought it was like going out 20, 27, but also sort of the stability of the program. But either way, so you get, you met. You're probably going to have CJ Carr for another couple of years. You got Marcus Freeman, who turned down the NFL, a couple of NFL jobs and he's recruiting very well. Yeah, I would feel really good about it if I was Notre Dame. I am interested in Texas at 3 because I understand the Texas package. Like they're going to get the athletes. They may have Arch Manning back, you know, for another year and all that stuff. But I just, I'd be interested to know if Steve Sarkeesian will be there in three years, you know, if he

[Van Lathan]

especially be in Texas.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Where would Sark go? I mean, he, to the pros.

[Joel Anderson]

Get, maybe get run up out of there.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, fire his black ass.

[Joel Anderson]

Fire his black ass. And his wife. His black, his black wife. Yeah, man. Cause he. Joe, there's a lot of, there's a lot of pressure on him this year. What? There's a lot of pressure on him this year.

[Tate Frazier]

There were Texas fans that were upset they weren't at number one.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, man. If you can't, if you can't win this year, and I've done this before,

[Tate Frazier]

so I think Ohio State should be at number one. Just my personal too.

[Joel Anderson]

But I wonder if the theory is there is that Ryan Day will probably just want to go on and do something else at some point and maybe there'll be a job offer that NFL in the NFL. A job offer in the NFL that may look Good to him. Because, look, man, we are two years. We're really literally two years away from them people wanting him fired. You know what I mean? Like, going into the playoffs in 2020 and 2024, in another year without playoffs,

[Tate Frazier]

Joe, I think you can win it.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, I think they would.

[Van Lathan]

I think Ryan Day is. Ryan day is 47, man. Ryan day. Yeah, man. Ryan Day supposed to stay there to. It's the Ryan Dayfield.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

Coaches don't do that no more.

[Van Lathan]

You're right. But, like, for him, if you're Ryan Day, you almost have to get fired, because there's not anywhere. There's not a program for you to go to in college football. If you go to the pros, that's one thing. Honestly, though, I'll be real with you. I think that these college coaches are less inclined to go to the NFL than they used to be. You see this all the time. You see guys, Dence Erickson, Jimmy Johnson, even Nick Saban to a degree. These guys all wanting to cut their teeth of what's going on in the NFL. I. I think that, you know, that there are a lot of these guys that like the. I guess, sort of stability and the continuity of the college game more. I don't know if some of these

[Tate Frazier]

have to deal with owners.

[Van Lathan]

Well, yeah, I don't know if they see themselves as NFL coaches, but you gotta.

[Joel Anderson]

You gotta deal with raising money from your boosters every year now. Like, you know, it's like.

[Tate Frazier]

Because I think that's gonna get stabilized at some point.

[Joel Anderson]

It might. It might. But that's. It's actually run off a lot of coaches, right, where they're just like. I don't like the instability of it. You know, the players have a lot more freedom, and some of them don't like that. But. Yeah. Man, I cannot believe I'm older than Ryan Day, dog. That's crazy.

[Tate Frazier]

TCU coming in at number 31, Joel.

[Joel Anderson]

That sounds about right. That sounds about right.

[Tate Frazier]

Actually.

[Van Lathan]

That's not. Actually, I'm not. No hatred at all. That's actually. That's actually not bad. And that. I mean, they can. They can improve on that.

[Joel Anderson]

I was interested that we were five spots behind Houston, because I just. You know, there's. Houston is a new Big 12 program. They just came up. TCU has had a pretty good head start on them as a national, you know, a team that matters nationally, and already we're behind Houston. And so, again, I don't know if that's a Sunny Dykes thing. I don't know if that's we don't, we ain't got it thing.

[Tate Frazier]

So again, very subjective list, but I find this very fascinating and it really threw me for a loop because I was looking for this program as I was going down the list. Florida State, number 50, bro, that was crazy.

[Joel Anderson]

That is insane. Florida State at 50, man. Behind UCLA, behind Wake Forest.

[Tate Frazier]

Behind Wake Forest.

[Joel Anderson]

Behind Wake Forest. Yeah. And what are we talking about? Duke, Vanderbilt. They're behind them.

[Tate Frazier]

Northwestern.

[Van Lathan]

If I legitimately, If I was in the Florida State faithful, if I was part of their culture, that's the type of shit that will make me want him fired. Yeah, seriously. Like it it to me. I'm not saying that they should or they shouldn't. It's a prove a year for him next year. They kind of stuck with the contract a little bit, honestly. But for them to be. For them to be paying a head coach that much money. Remember, he leveraged. He leveraged the Nick Saban retirement to, To. To get a real bad. For him to be playing them. For them to be paying him that much money, for them to be 50. You're paying for it. Top 50 pro. I mean, if we're taking this list on his face, this means nothing. But if that was.

[Joel Anderson]

Damn. Damn. My boy Adam Rittenberg, man, he put a lot of thought in this shout

[Van Lathan]

out to Adam Rittenberg. But I'm saying the list itself. Yeah, like, like, not like the actual ranking.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, it's a.

[Joel Anderson]

It's right, right, right, right, right.

[Tate Frazier]

But it's still wild to see that. And also, you know what?

[Joel Anderson]

Florida. Florida State is broke. I mean, they don't. They didn't have the money to get rid of Norva. They probably would have fired Mike Norvell if they could have done it. And the, the bigger problem. I don't know if it's the bigger problem or not, given how college football is changing. But recruiting is falling off. Like, they just don't. They're not making the waves in, in Florida like they used to. And so it's like, what do you really have to look forward to? Like, they did not. They don't have a lot of homegrown talent on the team.

[Tate Frazier]

You know, they also don't have the alumni base that's giving back money.

[Joel Anderson]

They've got Auburn's throwaway is their starting Ashton Daniels this year. And like, I don't think Ashton Daniels is a bad quarterback, but I would have thought Florida State could have done better than that. So, yeah, it's. They're. They're in trouble, man.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, it's. It's pretty interesting though. Just think about the history of what, you know, Coach Bowden did there and obviously all the great players they've had at Florida State. So I, I find them fascinating. At 50, North Carolina at 51. One spot behind Florida, Billicheck and Bobby Petrino.

[Joel Anderson]

Man, they got one last ride.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, we're ready to rock now.

[Joel Anderson]

One spot behind Florida State. That's crazy.

[Tate Frazier]

Speaking of hot seats, hot seat rankings. We're gonna do our own hot seat once we get closer to the season. But rankings came out and Lincoln Riley. Shout out to Jomi, who just came in here, but Lincoln Riley is on the hot seat rank. Linking's van. Do you agree with that? That Lincoln Riley should be worried?

[Van Lathan]

I mean, we just had an SC fan in here.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, I gotta see, like, he. They're not happy.

[Van Lathan]

So I guess you can't deny the fact that he is. The question is, is it fair? You know what I mean?

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Tate Frazier]

They were number four fans on this list, FYI.

[Van Lathan]

I guess that's the question you asked me too. But I don't know. Like, it seems if they are judging Leakin Riley by the standard of the expectations that they had coming in, there's no way to argue that he's lived up to those standards. However, SEC has a pretty healthy program, all things being considered. Right. Like, next year should be a year where good recruiting clubs, they're able to kind of. Yeah, all of that stuff. It would seem as if, if you're being rational, which college football fans should never be, to give Lincoln Riley a couple of more seasons to kind of get you to that top five rankings.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, I mean, I, I get it. Like you said, I, you know, I'm a person that's very conservative in that regard, where I'm like, I don't know if you want to find a coach like Lincoln Riley.

[Tate Frazier]

This is Joel back on. Fine Bomb just ended. Very conservative.

[Joel Anderson]

No, no, I mean, y', all, y', all, y' all really amping this, this Fine Bomb thing. I don't even think about Paul Fon, but I, I do want him to come on the press box at some point this year. I don't even think about Paul. But anyway, listen, so year by year

[Van Lathan]

record 11 and 3.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Nah, man, he got to do better.

[Joel Anderson]

They got what I'm saying, man.

[Van Lathan]

They're paying him a lot. So. So yeah, now they got to do better. They got to do better. When you look at it like this, the. The record is 11 and 3, 8 and 5, 7 and 6 and 9 and 4. They need. They need better returns from.

[Joel Anderson]

That's. That's not good enough for what they're doing. And I mean, look, they. This is their schedule this year, so I think you're probably going to see about three losses, maybe more. They got September. This is. But it's still a favorable schedule because they get Oregon, they get Washington and Ohio State at home.

[Tate Frazier]

Right.

[Joel Anderson]

Their toughest road game. Yeah, their toughest road games are at Penn State and at Indiana. Okay, so, like. And they. I don't. I mean, if I'm a USC fan, I know that this is the last couple years, but do I really think that Indiana should be a better program than me? Like, would I still accept USC going out there and losing to Indiana? And so if he were to lose four games this year or three in. In a. In a. In ugly fashion and not contend for the playoffs, yeah, man. I. I could kind of understand why they might think they need to move on.

[Tate Frazier]

One other. If they.

[Van Lathan]

If. If he loses four. If he loses four, he'll be fired.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, I think so. One other note. I saw Jeremiah Love was on with Amman, Aman Ross, St. Brown, and on their podcast, and he was talking about playing usc, because obviously Iman went there and he was just, you know, asked him about the game against Notre Dame, and Jeremiah Love kind of, you know, was just saying, like, they didn't. He was like, those guys didn't give a. You know, like, you know, and I think when you get that sort of inside baseball talk about a game from a player that's going up against them, I just think some of that stuff rubs you the wrong way, too, when you're a fan.

[Van Lathan]

Joe, one more time. What did you say USC's toughest road games were again?

[Joel Anderson]

At Penn State, at Indiana. Is that right? Yeah, that's what I had. Is that. Am I missing something?

[Van Lathan]

I mean, they play at UCLA on November 28th. You didn't. Oh, wait. It seems to me that you don't give a. About Nico. Like, you don't care about. You don't think that Nico's.

[Joel Anderson]

No. They going. Is that. Is that in the Rose Bowl? Is that. Is that in the Rose Bowl?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, well, Rose bowl, which we know now. We should go to the game.

[Joel Anderson]

That's Thanksgiving week. Thanksgiving.

[Van Lathan]

Throw the ball.

[Joel Anderson]

We should throw the ball.

[Jay Billis]

I don't.

[Joel Anderson]

I don't want to go that week. That's Thanksgiving week. I'll be here with my family. So you all enjoy yourselves.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, wait.

[Joel Anderson]

Y' all said y' all were gonna Go on the boat ride. Did y' all do the boat ride?

[Tate Frazier]

No, we didn't. Because.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, of course you didn't. No, we said we didn't do that boat ride, y'.

[Van Lathan]

All. We told you, Joel, we told you we doing the boat ride. Joe, every time you do this, we doing the boat ride this weekend, okay? Like, keep, keep doing. We doing the boat ride this weekend. Take Khaled and him out on the boat. Do some coke on the boat. I'm just joking.

[Tate Frazier]

Miami boat life. Next up, another headline. Dabo Sweeney. He says that Clemson is, quote, ready to get back to the top and he has no plans to retire to the beach anytime soon. Van, do you believe Dabo?

[Van Lathan]

I mean, yeah, he. Yeah, they're ready to get back on top. They're ready. You know, just like other people that tell you that they ready to get on top. That don't mean they're going to do it. You know what I'm saying? They might.

[Joel Anderson]

They.

[Van Lathan]

Then they come home, work, they tired, they're like, you know, let's put on Memory of a Killer. And you go, I thought you said, you know. Anyway, it's like, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's ready, he's ready. Yeah, they're ready, they're ready. But I don't. We. I'll tell you what we gotta see. Clemson's fall off, has to be steady. We have to see what happens with Clemson this year and they got a chance. We're playing Clemson again this year. LSU's playing Clemson again this year. Like, we have to really see what Clemson is made of this season. They actually, if you look at it, Dabo was actually able to stop the team from becoming a complete dumpster fire last year. It could have ended up in the situation where we're talking about like a three win team or something like that. But Clemson, at different points last year, did show some signs of life, which kind of tells me that the, at least the players still believe in what he's talking about.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, they were the sexy pick to win the national championship.

[Joel Anderson]

I was going to say, man, they were the sexy pick. They were. A lot of people picked them to definitely make the playoffs and be the ACC favorite, but even play in the national championship. And then they went seven and six and I'm looking, and I'm looking at the schedule. So what do you think at lsu? I think that's a loss they got.

[Van Lathan]

I think they'll probably lose.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, yeah. October 3rd against Miami. You think they'll beat Miami.

[Van Lathan]

No, they probably lose.

[Joel Anderson]

Okay, that. Those are pretty much the only two. I mean, you know, they play North Carolina, they're at Cal, the Ed, you know, game. And it's on a Friday too. But I mean, if, if Dabo doesn't go nine and three, man, I'd be like, what's, what's going on? Look, and here's the thing that I was thinking about. How many coaches actually managed to turn it around? Like, once the coach has sort of gone down that spiral, you hardly question, like Joe Paterno was one of the few because he had a couple of years where he went like 3 and 9 and 4 and 7 and he was in his 70s in. And they're like, well, maybe we should move on from Joe Paterno. But he, you know, we don't want to fire him. And then he managed to kind of turn it around and they had, you know, about like 3, 11 win seasons before, you know, he had to step out of his role. So maybe, so maybe. So maybe, maybe that. Maybe Dabo will do that. Maybe he will have a second act to improve on this and he will do that.

[Tate Frazier]

Like a power rankings of second act

[Joel Anderson]

coaching 10 years, you know, bro, Scott Frost at UCF.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, it's kind of ruminating in my mind, you know what I mean? Like, who's been able to actually bounce back? Because it is true, like once the fans turn on you, it's hard to win them back without some sort of drastic season. And even then, there's still skepticism that's behind it. So, Dabo, we will see what happens. Last story here. NC State is investigating whether LSU improperly persuaded Will Wade, head coach of the basketball team, to break his contract with the Wolfpack. I was told behind the scenes, even before this became a thing, that that was what was happening. There were some tampering.

[Van Lathan]

They definitely did.

[Tate Frazier]

So I think they're going to find that in the investigation. But Van, lsu, the coaches, my goodness, they got a lot going on over there.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So I will say this with Will Wade. The thing about Will Wade is that he's always been a coach that prioritized straight dealing integrity. He's always done things, actually in Baton Rouge, we call him Will by the book Wade.

[Joel Anderson]

Ok,

[Van Lathan]

Will by the book Wade.

[Tate Frazier]

But you know how you spell by B, U, Y, bi.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, exactly. Without a doubt. The thing that I love the most about Will Wade returning to lsu, it was just a complete embrace of the total bullshit. It's like a total embrace of the bullshit for lsu to even ask, honestly, for LSU to even ask, like, didn't care about the way it looked. Like, hey, man, we went and got Kiffin. He be texting Nico is like, what else can we do? Like, it's like, they didn't care how it looked. They didn't care how it felt. But if you're asking me what this investigation will probably uncover, it'll probably uncover shenanigans, and then whatever happens, happens.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

It's. It's just funny to me because on both sides, because I'm like, this is over Will Wade, man. Like, I'm just like, the best year. They lost. They.

[Van Lathan]

They.

[Joel Anderson]

They went the advance to the Sweet 16. But in four of his five years there, he lost 15 games. 10 games. 10 games. 11 games. I'm like, this is all over Will Wade, dog. North Carolina State, 20 and 14 last year. We got to keep Will Wade. I just. It seems undignified that everybody is busting it open for Will Wade. And I have a. I have a homie who goes to NC State, shout Out Deck, who is like, maybe this is maybe just to placate the fan base, but I'm like, even if you win this case, like, did you really win? I mean, just. I feel like y' all should just move on. Like, just. Yeah, I know you hurt NC also.

[Tate Frazier]

They were kind of turning on them anyway at the end of the year, they're like, he did a horrible job with this team. I mean.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, just kind of. Yeah. I mean, it's just undignified. Like, you got a new coach now. Throw your support in behind him. The money that you're going to spend on.

[Tate Frazier]

And you got played there at NC State, too, gainy. So, I mean.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, man. Just.

[Van Lathan]

Have you ever. Have you guys ever known anybody that didn't even want their ex, but was just mad that they was with somebody else?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, it's called ego.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Like, you don't. You're like, bro, like, you. All you did was complain you ain't want him more. I intelligue with that nigga, though.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, it's true.

[Tate Frazier]

You have a ghost.

[Joel Anderson]

You ain't been with that person before you. Have you ever been there?

[Van Lathan]

Not really, man.

[Tate Frazier]

Really?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, not really. Not really. Like, I. Like once. You know what I mean?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, exactly.

[Van Lathan]

What the best one.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah. Just move on. Have a nice life.

[Van Lathan]

Just. Yeah, go for it. I'm never tripping. I'm like, I'm. I'm normally non concerned.

[Tate Frazier]

I'm not a hater. You know what I mean?

[Joel Anderson]

You know Chuck Closerman once wrote something. It was something like, you know, you want the woman you've been with, you've cared about. At some point, you want her to like you best and then, like. But still find happiness with the second guy, the guy that she loved the second most in her life. It was something along those lines. So tough. He said it more elegant than that. But it's just like, you don't want some girl to be. Just moved on and be like, yeah, man, life really got a lot better. I wanted to have a good life, but I don't want to be like, that was whack. And things really turned around when he got out of my life.

[Tate Frazier]

Well, I mean, you definitely don't want.

[Van Lathan]

It depends on why her life is better. Like, if her life gets better because she's settled, then, yeah, that's cool. But if she find somebody that you couldn't have possibly been, then you just have to remind yourself that that guy is out there, which, by the way, he is. Man. I could tell a story right now. I'm not gonna tell it, but it's not about me. It's about one of my homeboys who thinks a lot of himself. And I remember we had a lot of fun with this because his girl met some dude. And this dude was not a guy that my boy would have thought could compete with him.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And then we. And we were all like, no, she likes him. She likes him right there. In love. Ain't me, though. He's like. I'll be like. It's hard to tell. It's hard to tell that he's not. You look at it.

[Tate Frazier]

A lot of love there.

[Van Lathan]

Where's he looking? She's looking at. The OxyContin is going straight to her brain. Like, she liked that. Whatever going on. You say if she was dirty. Well, she like dirty shoes. She thought she liked clean shoes. Turns out she likes dirty shoes. So.

[Jay Billis]

Yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, man. I mean, things change.

[Tate Frazier]

That's life.

[Joel Anderson]

Just be. I want everybody to be happy, to find love. Big end. Like, I just, like, of course, man. I still. I miss Joel. I want them to think that deep

[Tate Frazier]

in the recesses of their mind. Yeah, I think that's. That's.

[Joel Anderson]

That's.

[Tate Frazier]

That's funny, Joel, that you think that way. It cracks me up.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah. I mean, I would like that. I don't know if that's true. I got. I suspect for a couple, though, that probably is the case.

[Tate Frazier]

But anyway, we'll break that down at a later date. All right. There you have it. Fun show thanks again to Jay Billis for coming on the show. Any parting shots? Anything we missed, Joel? Anything that you want to hit?

[Joel Anderson]

Yo, man, I want to send a shout out. Well, not a shout out, RIP. To former Oklahoma State coach Bob Simmons. He died Tuesday at the age of 77. He was the first black coach there, and he was there from 95 to 2000. He was 97. Big 12 coach of the year, and just sort of in keeping with the general rule that black coaches very rarely get good jobs. He ended up at Oklahoma State after they had been. They had lost six straight seasons. They were still dealing with, like, real probation that, like, them up, like, they couldn't play in a bowl game for three years. They were banned from TV for two. They lost scholarships. And so he was there, and it was tough. And this is again before T. Boom picking started showering money all over that program. He took a really difficult job and did really well. Like, I mean, they, you know, went 30, 38. That's not great now, but for what Oklahoma State used to be, it wasn't bad. He beat OU three seasons, something that they don't do regularly. And he brought a bunch of great players up in Stillwater, man, like, y' all remember R.W. mcarters, R.W. mcwhorters, Tatum Bell.

[Van Lathan]

Remember R.W. mcquarters?

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, yeah, he got R.W. r.W.

[Van Lathan]

Quarters. A cornerback, right?

[Joel Anderson]

The cornerback. That's right. Uhhuh. Yeah, he got. He got Tatum Bell up there. He got.

[Van Lathan]

Maybe Tatum Bell was the man.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, Tatum Bell. Rashawn woods was the dude before DEZ Bryant up there. They had. He brought him in.

[Tate Frazier]

A lot of great players at Oklahoma State.

[Joel Anderson]

Kevin Williams, Jamal Williams. He's the guy that brought them in. And you.

[Jay Billis]

You.

[Joel Anderson]

He set the stage for a young offensive coordinator to take over. Do you remember who the offensive coordinator is?

[Van Lathan]

Les Miles.

[Joel Anderson]

There you go.

[Tate Frazier]

There you go.

[Joel Anderson]

There you go. Yeah, so he was a real. He was the guy that really set that program on the right path to be what it is, or what it used to be before last year. So, yeah, RP Coach Simmons, man. A legend in the game.

[Jay Billis]

Yeah.

[Tate Frazier]

Rest in peace. I like that. Shout out. Van, Any other parting shots for the people?

[Van Lathan]

Man, I say shout out Jay Billis, man. Shout out Cody Campbell.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, man. Cody Campbell. We gonna talk about it.

[Van Lathan]

We're gonna talk about Shout out Kobe Campbell. We don't. We still wait for you to hop in the interview room. I see you all here doing other interviews. Cody Campbell. Watch yourself.

[Joel Anderson]

That's dog. That's some that's, that's walked over us.

[Van Lathan]

Cody Campbell.

[Joel Anderson]

I was excited. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Are we, are we rooting for Texas Tech this year or not? I used to always like them. Now we got Brenda Swords. We got Cody Campbell. We got people that's really not with us. Like talking about we don't know. I don't know. I don't know yet.

[Tate Frazier]

I think it's open ended right now. We don't have to decide today, but.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, usually I would be. Yeah, yeah, we got to decide, you know.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, we'll think about it.

[Van Lathan]

We might be over them. We're gonna do that on the. We're gonna do our top 10 villain teams of college football. Ooh. Before the season starts. Top 10 villain teams. We're not gonna do top 10 teams we like because I don't like no teams, but top 10 villain teams of college football.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, I like that.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tate Frazier]

We got some previews coming up. College people.

[Joel Anderson]

People ask me, if we're going to do a mailbag too, we should do a. People got questions for us, man. We should look. We should do a mailbag.

[Tate Frazier]

DM me on Instagram. That's where the Bob sir thing came from. So is that right, people?

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Tate Frazier]

Want to reach out.

[Joel Anderson]

I mean that was. I mean, we'll. Again, I appreciate you watching the show, but I mean, dog, you said that. You said 1996. The first thing I said, one person I said, this is picture.

[Tate Frazier]

It's for the years. I just thought it was very funny that he's like, wait a second. Bobby Sura is the guy.

[Joel Anderson]

Get out of here.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, cracked me up. Shout out to everybody for listening to ring a tailgate. We appreciate you. We're gonna close the gate right now. We're gonna be back next Wednesday. We will see you all then. Hope everybody has a great week.

[Van Lathan]

Week.

[Tate Frazier]

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[Jay Billis]

Ryan Reynolds here from IT Mobile. I don't know if you knew this,

[Van Lathan]

but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today.

[Tate Frazier]

I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Joel Anderson]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3

[Van Lathan]

month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes

[Jay Billis]

and fees, extra fee, full [e-mail] Some follow the noise.

[Joel Anderson]

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[Tate Frazier]

Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money side to every story.

[Joel Anderson]

Get the money side of the story.

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