Episode #103, Transforming Healthcare Through Technology and Strategic Risk Management with Ed Ricks, Managing Director at Baker Tilly US

Summary

Risk Never Sleeps Podcast – Episode #103 Summary

Episode Title: Transforming Healthcare Through Technology and Strategic Risk Management
Guest: Ed Ricks, Managing Director at Baker Tilly US
Host: Ed Gaudet
Date: October 24, 2024

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Brief Overview

In this engaging episode, host Ed Gaudet sits down with Ed Ricks, Managing Director at Baker Tilly US and veteran healthcare IT leader, to discuss the intersection of technology, risk management, innovation, and patient safety in today’s healthcare landscape. They explore challenges and opportunities facing healthcare IT, delve into the importance of mission-driven work, share career advice, and close with a lively conversation about personal passions—travel, music, hobbies, and taking risks in life and work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Ed Ricks’ Journey into Healthcare IT

• Background:
  • Over 20 years as VP and CIO in health systems, mostly on the East Coast.
  • Transitioned from electrical engineering to computer science, ultimately landing in healthcare IT through a software company serving hospitals.
• Career Evolution:
  • Progressed from a 60-bed hospital CIO to roles with broader responsibilities, earning a master’s in health administration.
  • Shifted from the provider side to consulting and advisory with Baker Tilly, leveraging industry relationships and expertise.

"The light bulb moment was...trying to help support one of our customers and tell them, 'here's how the system works.' They said, 'here's how the hospital works.' ...We gotta, you know, think about this completely differently. Which was a great thing for me." – Ed Ricks [03:23]

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The Mission and Culture of Healthcare

• Mission-Driven Mindset:
  • All healthcare organizations, regardless of for-profit status, ultimately aim to deliver better care in their communities.
  • Clinicians and support staff are notably mission-driven—“they like taking care of people and there’s something really good about that.”
• Differences in Culture:
  • Consulting and advisory roles are rewarding but different from the direct mission-driven energy of provider organizations.

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Strategic Challenges in Healthcare IT

• Resource Limitations:
  • Funding is a persistent challenge: “There’s just not enough money to go around anymore, and that’s not going to change.” [06:14]
• Focus on Optimization:
  • Organizations want tangible ROI: reducing expenses, improving workflows, and enhancing revenue.
  • Optimization services are critical—“help you get more value out of the investment you’ve already made.”

Innovations and the Role of AI

• Pragmatic Adoption over Buzzwords:
  • AI, especially generative and computer vision tools, is making a real impact (e.g., virtual nursing, documentation, clinician note-taking).
  • Ed notes improvement in both efficiency and care amidst workforce shortages.

“If you let the AI and algorithms help, you also catch things in advance. And the computer vision part I think is awesome.” – Ed Ricks [09:29]

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AI Governance in Healthcare

• Organizational Risk vs. IT Risk:
  • Emphasizes the need for institution-wide AI governance (not just IT-led).
  • Risks differ based on AI application, especially those influencing clinical decisions.

“It’s not an IT problem again, it’s an organizational risk management problem. It really is.” – Ed Ricks [11:39]

• Current State:
  • Fewer than 50% of organizations have a formal AI governance model.
  • Baker Tilly helps organizations establish these frameworks.

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Building IT-Clinical Relationships

• Service Mentality:
  • IT’s role is to serve providers and, by extension, patients—not just operate as a “lights-on” technical function.
  • IT leaders should be proactive in understanding clinician needs and avoid being “no people.”
• Bridging the Gap:
  • Importance of IT reporting structure—reporting to the CFO frames IT as an expense; reporting to the CEO or CMO frames IT strategically.
  • Coaches IT leaders to build relationships, frequent clinical spaces, and seek direct feedback.

“You will never waste a minute if you’re spending it with people that are on the front line. And you’ll learn a ton. The more you will elevate the role in IT.” – Ed Ricks [16:44]

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Career Advice: Leadership and Personal Growth

• Work that Energizes:
  • “Find work that gives you energy. Don’t find work that takes energy away from you.” [24:36]
• Save Early, Change When Needed:
  • Encourages financial prudence and not being afraid to pivot when work becomes draining.
• Empathy & Risk Focus:
  • Empathize with users, focus on the healthcare mission, and remember that information security is a risk—not just a technical—problem.

“A lot of people think that information security is a technical problem. It’s not. It’s a risk management problem.” – Ed Ricks [41:21]

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The Reality of Risk in Healthcare IT

• CIO Anxiety:
  • Constant concern about information security incidents.
  • Expansion of “ancillary department” oversight – learning from managing diverse teams.
• Professional and Personal Risk-Taking:
  • Recalls taking on significant professional challenges, motorcycle trips, and unique experiences like a hot air balloon exit from his wedding.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Healthcare’s Mission:

  “If you read the mission statements…everyone’s there to deliver better health care for the communities that they serve.” – Ed Ricks [04:54]

• On AI Governance:

  “Talk about it. The more you understand what your risks are, I think the better that you can stand up to them and know what you’re worth.” – Ed Ricks [12:59]

• On Building Relationships:

  “Go start talking to the doctors and nurses around every day…Talk to patients…you will never waste a minute if you’re spending it with people that are on the front line.” – Ed Ricks [16:44]

• Work Advice:

  “Find work that gives you energy. Don’t find work that takes energy away from you…It’s time for a change.” – Ed Ricks [24:36]

• On Risk:

  “That 24/7 fear that something bad is happening from an information security perspective…that has so much risk.” – Ed Ricks [25:23]

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Personal Passions: Music, Travel, and Hobbies

Music

• Desert Island Albums:
  1. Wish You Were Here – Pink Floyd
  2. You Can Tune a Piano, But You Can’t Tuna Fish – REO Speedwagon
  3. Royal Albert Hall (Live) – Peter Frampton
  4. Fleetwood Mac (Peter Green era)
  5. Led Zeppelin IV
• Best Concerts:
  • Desert Trip (2016), Indio, CA: Dylan, Stones, Neil Young, McCartney, The Who, Roger Waters
  • Peter Frampton at Royal Albert Hall
  • Stones at Soldier Field (recently)

Hobbies & Quirks

• RV travel with wife (and sometimes dog and bird)
• Golf aficionado
• Avid motorcycle traveler
• Has traveled abroad and enjoys food, wine, and music-focused trips
• Bird owner (African Grey), longtime Lab lover

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Notable Segments & Timestamps

| Time | Segment | |------------|---------------------------------------------------| | 03:23 | Ed Ricks talks about entering healthcare IT | | 04:54 | The true mission of healthcare organizations | | 06:14 | Strategic financial and tech challenges | | 09:29 | AI in practice: camera/mic innovations | | 11:39 | The push for AI governance | | 13:42 | Advice for building IT-clinical relationships | | 16:44 | How IT leaders can gain respect in provider orgs | | 24:36 | Career advice: energy, change, and risk | | 25:23 | The 24/7 risk focus as a CIO | | 28:51 | Desert island albums, music discussion | | 35:46 | Best and most memorable concert experiences | | 40:43 | Advice for newcomers to healthcare IT/cyber | | 41:21 | Security: A risk management, not technical issue |

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Episode Tone & Style

Conversational, candid, and reflective, with a mix of light-hearted personal anecdotes and practical, mission-focused leadership wisdom. Frequent asides on music and travel keep the discussion energetic and relatable, while hard-won lessons about risk, governance, and career satisfaction ground the insights in real-world experience.

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Final Advice for Listeners

• Center your work on the mission and people you serve.
• Build deep, reciprocal relationships across silos—especially between IT and clinicians.
• Address new risks proactively, particularly as AI transforms care.
• Don’t just chase technical solutions—manage risk strategically.
• Love what you do, and don’t be afraid to adapt when you don’t.

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Notable closing words:

"Remember to keep that empathy front and center. Because we serve right and serve alongside. Don’t serve in spite of. Always remember what you do and why you’re doing it and the mission of healthcare, which is where we started and where we’ll end." – Ed Gaudet [41:32]

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For more on risk management and patient safety in healthcare, visit Censinet.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign welcome to Risk Never Sleeps where we meet and get to know the people delivering patient care and protecting patient safety. I'm your host, Ed Gaudet. Welcome to the Risk Never Sleeps podcast in which we learn about the people that are on the front lines delivering and protecting patient care. I'm Ed Gaudette, the host of our program and man, I am pleased today to be joined by a good friend, a long time friend, Ed Ricks at pinkertilly. Ed, how are you today, sir?

[B]

Hey, good man. Thank you for having me. You're right, we've been friends for a long time, so.

[A]

We have been.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I can't believe I haven't had you on the show sooner. Which means that maybe we'll get you a shirt too.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Shirts. Have you seen these shirts that.

[B]

I'm sure they're awesome.

[A]

They're tour shirts. They're like music. Rock and roll band Torture.

[B]

It's awesome. Awesome.

[A]

Not that this is a rock and roll program, but we are going to talk music. But let's start off with, you know, tell our listeners about your organization and your role.

[B]

Sure. Thank you so. And Rick, managing director at the Curtilion or health care IT consulting practice. And you know, you know my background, but I spent over 20 years as a VP and CIO and provider lands on health systems primarily on the east coast and about three and a half years as a CEO at the last system I was at. So coming over to this side is different for me. I thought about it for years working on the vendor side, on the provider side, and I've been really happy. It's kind of a neat spot for me. So I'm not really a seller, but I can put on my entrepreneur hat in this role, which is good. I am I guess considered a subject matter expert to help support all of our sales team. And I guess as you know, part of it coming over from the provider side is take advantage of all your friendships you've made over the years and start talking to all those folks about some ways that we can help improve the way they deliver care. So it's great, you know, we healthcare it, but Baker Tilly itself is a very large CPA advisory firm and just about 2 billion in revenue a year. So a large organization and growing and you know, we do everything from accounting to audit to risk assurance, all those things across all industries. And then in healthcare specifically all those things. And healthcare IT consulting.

[A]

Yeah. And you have a long, like you said, a long set of experiences.

[B]

Kind way is calling old, but you got it, right, man?

[A]

Yeah, that span, I don't want to call you old. That span many decades in healthcare. And we met when you were a CIO at a. A provider in South Carolina. Was it Beaumont? Is that who. Or was it Buford in Beaumont or.

[B]

No, no, not in Beaumont, that's Detroit.

[A]

Buford. In Buford, Yeah. I get confused, man. It's been a long day. It's been a long week. Are we Thursday already? It's. It's like I felt like I was at Tuesday for like four days and now it's Thursday. Yeah, no, no, at Buford, which is a beautiful part of the world.

[B]

I still live here. I mean, this is. I, you know, live anywhere in a lot of these roles. And we just like in this area so much. We stayed.

[A]

Last time I saw you was, I think in Buford, or maybe it was at a conference. But I did see you at Buford. I know that. I remember that. Yeah. I think I was still smoking cigars and drinking back then. Too.

[B]

Late lunch or something. Yeah, it was great.

[A]

Yeah, it was a good time. It was a good time. And of course we're going to get into music because we do share a passion there. But how did you first get into healthcare?

[B]

It, you know, I don't know, it's one of those weird progressions that I would have never expected. Right. So I thought in high school I was going to be an electrical engineer and went to a small college focused on electrical engineering and somehow through that time period shifted into computer science. And so I did graduate computer science and physics degrees, you know, which didn't do me a ton of good other than I worked for a small software company that wrote software, which just happened to be healthcare software. And so probably seven years into that, I was sort of leading our R and D for that organization. One of our hospital customers hired me to be their CIO at the time. And that was it. That was a small, that was like a 60 bed hospital. But it was a great learning experience, you know, and the light bulb moment was long before they hired me. And when I was working for that organization, trying to help support one of our customers and tell them, well, here's how the system works. They said, well, here's how the hospital works, you know, I said, no, you, we're delivering the service to you. We gotta, you know, think about this completely differently. Which was a great thing for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's how I got into healthcare. And then over the years, progressively, you know, different roles in health systems and larger responsibility ended up with masters in health administration. So at that point, like, I'd given up. I knew I wasn't leaving healthcare, was going to stay in there. And I'm happy. I love the mission of healthcare and let's talk about it so much, you.

[A]

Know, yeah, let's talk about the mission of healthcare because I think for folks that are listening that really think they know healthcare until they're really in it and spend time in it, they really don't understand the power of the mission. What does that mean to you?

[B]

You know, healthcare is very unique. You know, the business of healthcare is the craziest financial model in the world. But to me, the mission in healthcare not for profit. And for profit doesn't matter. If you read the mission statements, they may say some of the for profits about, you know, protecting the shareholders or what, but everyone's there to deliver better health care for the communities that they serve. That's just really what you're trying to do and make a difference. So all the clinicians that you work with, the support teams that you work with, I mean, they are really mission driven. They're not. To them, it's not the financial model. It's a job for sure. Right. But they're in there because they like taking care of people and there's something really good about that. You definitely miss that when you leave the provider side. I left about seven years ago now, and so I did work for another organization for about four and I love that role, large IT integrator and, you know, get to work with a lot of hospitals on solving some of their unique problems. But it's different. Everyone's got a culture and even the culture I'm in now is great, but to me, it's just different. I miss. There are a few things I miss about being a Seattle. There are a few things I do not miss. We'll probably talk about some of them because they involve risk, for sure. I love the mission of healthcare. I really do.

[A]

Yeah, that's well said. You know, as you look out over the next 12, 24 months, what are some of the things you were, you know, thinking about strategically and what are some of the challenges you're faced with?

[B]

You know, the biggest challenge for any vendor in healthcare IT space is the same on your smile because, you know, there's just not enough money to go around anymore. And that's not going to change everyone's tasks to be more efficient. Reimbursement's not going to get better. You can get smarter with it with some of your managed care Contracting and some of the relationships that you have with providers in your area. But there's probably not more cash without more volume or figuring out how to get larger and scale and be more efficient, which I don't see very often. So it is competing for the funds that are there. And as a firm who would traditionally be selling EPIC staff augmentation or ERP work or integration, interoperability, we do a lot of that. You know, that still has to happen. It's an important piece. I think a lot of these organizations, and it's the bulk of what we do, we've sort of shifted the way we try to deliver that service and talk about it anymore. Anything else, and it's all around optimization. It's like, how can we help you solve a problem that also has an ROI like built in to the service? We're going to use the same kinds of people that we've been using, you know, that know, the EHRs inside out or the ERP systems. Well, we're going to help you get more value out of the investment you've already made and either reduce expense, improve workflows, which, you know, that's a little bit more qualitative and quantitative, or improve revenue, you know, improve reimbursable revenue. And we've done a lot of projects around those three areas that most of them also lead to clinician or patient satisfaction. So those are all good things. And that's sort of the focus. We are still growing. We love that, you know, getting bigger every month. I think it's kind of fun. And getting to meet new people every. Every week, which I really like that.

[A]

You'Re still traveling a lot.

[B]

I do travel a fair amount, yes. For work and personally a little bit too.

[A]

Yeah. Did you go to the EPIC user group?

[B]

I didn't because my wife and I were on vacation in Portugal. So, you know, I got. But normally I was GM for sure.

[A]

How was Portugal?

[B]

First time there? It's beautiful. I love that area.

[A]

Yeah. I have a friend, a couple friends that have actually walked the Camino de Santiago, the one from France to. Yeah, Spain. And I think it goes. I think it actually extends through Portugal as well. I don't really know.

[B]

Right on the border there for sure.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. What was your takeaway from the trip? What was the thing you loved the most?

[B]

You know, I like the wines, I like port. Never really had much poor before, so I got a lot of experience around that. Yeah, it was just as beautiful. Like their wine country is all mountainous and we actually did for one of the Weeks. We did a riverboat cruise and we were going upriver, which I knew that, but literally you're going up. So we went through a series of locks over the course. Three days to raise your elevation. And it's just gorgeous. Some of those people, like the workers, I don't know how they do it, the slopes are so steep. They tie off to go like pick the grapes or work on the mines and everything.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

But the scenery is beautiful from it.

[A]

Did you go Viking use the Viking River?

[B]

It wasn't, but it was very similar. Yeah, I'm a lot of racing.

[A]

I want to do one of those. So it was.

[B]

Was nice.

[A]

Yeah. So as you're looking out, you know, obviously you see a lot from the breadth of customers that you have in healthcare. What are some of the innovations that you just blown away with recently that you've seen like, that people aren't just talking about, but actually implementing?

[B]

You know, I hate buzzwords. I just, I've never been a fan, but even back when I was the purchaser of all these services, like, just like, let's be pragmatic, what problem are you going to solve and how you doing? So I don't always like to talk about AI and generative and blah, blah, blah. But that stuff is real. I mean, and you know that today that is very real. It does introduce other risks. Right. And I think that governance around that is where people are coming in. And I love some of the solutions. Some of them they improve the workflow. But you just like the virtual nursing, virtual sitting. The real win of that is a camera and a microphone in every room. But if you let the AI and algorithms help, you also catch things in advance. And the computer vision part I think is awesome. I really, I'm a big fan of that because I think it's efficiency and it helps with the nursing shortage and some of the other things.

[A]

Well, in documentation and notes and summary notes, for sure, you know, all of that. What about on the epic side? They're doing a lot with AI, obviously at the product level, if you see anything that's like, you've got to see this, you definitely have to get your arms around this.

[B]

You know, again, for me today it's the pragmatic stuff. Just what you said. So helping you do the notes, you know, upfront and capture that. They also have built in the capabilities to do the computer vision or at least the cameras and yeah. The mics and rooms and improve some workflows around that. But yeah, that front end let that clinician take care of the patient. Talked about that for years. Like I knew from the past one of the best things I ever did was purchase from your company. And when you have a doctor say finally you're doing something for me instead of to me, which I know that phrase has been used a few times, but it's powerful when you hear that, you know, and say we're here for you because you're here for the patients. So we've got to figure out how to get the technology out of the way.

[A]

Yeah. And you're referring to the Improvada tap and go, I think right there. Yeah. No, it's amazing. I still go into hospitals or clinics and I see it and I always, I always reference it. Hey, I worked on that product and yeah, very cool. So, you know, as you think about AI governance, you brought that up. What are you seeing from a macro trend and really specifically what can you share with listeners that may be just thinking about building out AI governance in their organization?

[B]

Well, first think about it and do it, because it's still probably fewer than 50% of people have built like an institution wide governance model around AI. It's not an IT problem again, it's an organizational risk management problem. It really is. And if you're working on these applications that help aid clinical decision making or literally make it, you know, for you, that means a lot to a lot of different people. Right. If it's like you're using some of the AI tools to improve your processes of registering a patient or billing and claims processing, it's a little bit different. Potential impact. I think it's awesome. I mean, I love creating the efficiencies, but when you're in the clinical space, particularly notable around clinical decision making, that's where it gets different. And so we were seeing places where pockets of departments were getting things in that the doctors wanted or something. We weren't thinking about it organizationally. And so it's not that it's a brand new concept and governance probably been 14 or 18 months that people have talked about having something where AI has been real enough that it made sense organizationally. But I would say 50% of the people I talked with still haven't built out a governance model around them. So talk about it. The more you understand what your risks are, I think the better that you can stand up to them and know what you're worth.

[A]

And is that a service Baker Tilly offers to folks where you sit down with organizations?

[B]

We do. I mean, I'm not even here talking about stuff that we sell necessarily but we do. We do a lot of government and we've got the capabilities around that and help people.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

I just think it's important from an organizational perspective to have something in place so that you know that you can say no for the right reasons or you've got a pathway to do the right thing.

[A]

Yeah. I want to ask this question. It's been on my list. I haven't really asked it to anyone yet, but I know, I know your background, so I know your background. I know you're really good at this. What advice do you have for IT and security leaders that are trying to build relationships with clinical leaders?

[B]

I mean, I used to have to say this all the time, right? Like, we weren't running an IT organization, we were running a healthcare organization. So no matter how big you are, how big your IT is and how awesome and some of them are, you are 100% there to serve the providers in the organization because you're serving the patients through that. And now so many of the IT applications, of course, touching patients directly, but that it's a service. I mean, that's what you're there for. And so it's, you know, I hate no people. Never like that. I don't like them in CFOs, I don't like them in IT leaders. I don't like them anymore. Like, there's a way to do the right thing. Always.

[A]

You just got always. Yeah, yeah. You have to talk through it. You've got to work through it. Of course, you've got to come with facts, not feelings. You got to have a business case. Right. Yeah. So, no, that's really, really great advice. I love that. See, I knew you'd be able to. I don't know. Ah, it's. It's. It's a good answer. Yeah. No, I always find that organizations. I'll go into IT is still treated like a stepchild to some extent. Right. You know. No, yeah. No. No offense to anyone that has stepchildren. Right. But, like, you know, they're not treated at the table with the clinical staff in, nor do they do themselves any favor. And so I'm wondering, you know, have you seen that where an organization's IT leader did these things and it broke through and it helped create the relationship. Is there anything that can help trigger that in a positive way?

[B]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I've tried to help, I guess, mentor, coach or some. A few different IT leaders where. That's exactly right. Like always the first indicator. And not that this should have to be a Bad thing. But if it reports up to the CFO and not through the CEO or the CEO or even the medical officer or something, you already see some of those relationships now. Then you looked at it as a cost center as opposed to a strategic part of running the organization. I was super lucky. I would say three out of the four places that I was a CIO at thought just the opposite, Right. Like, it is going to be a differentiator for us. Not that we're running an IT organization. We just want to utilize capabilities to deliver better healthcare. And so at Buford, you know, great leadership there. Great team. The entire leadership team was awesome to work with, and everybody bought into that. So if I could give advice, anybody, you know, this sort of stuck in that rut of, you know, where the keep the lights on kind of people and technical walks or whatever, for lack of a better way to explain it, is like you can change it, right? Go start talking to the doctors and nurses around every day. Talk to patients. Like, yes, you would go into patient rooms, talk to patients about what was going on. And you learn so much from doing that. It's not always comfortable, but you can learn a lot. Talk to the nurses. You know, I got to be friends with. I always start this when I go to a new job. First become friends with all the people on the food line. You're in the cafeteria, right. And then you figure out where the bathrooms are and all that kind of stuff. But after that, it's like the clinical people who are touching patients. I think that, you know, you will never waste a minute if you're spending it with people that are on the phone. And you'll learn a ton. And the more important because of that, the more you'll elevate the role in an. Elevate what? I keep it.

[A]

That's great advice. And I think, you know, in some ways, even though politics can be a dirty word to some people, you have to be a politician in a good way. For all the goodness that comes out of a politician, you have to be a diplomat, you have to be a politician. You have to be an advocate in a way that connects with the business. And if you're not, that's, I think, where things go wrong.

[B]

Right. I think in any industry, it is that to be connected to the business. Healthcare, I think, is a little different because the business is delivering healthcare to patients. Right. But I agree. Yeah, like the politician part, some people would have probably called me a politician, but I think it's different. I think it's more just understanding how people tick.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're all. We all have our own personalities. Doesn't mean one is better than the other. They're just different. Right. And understand how yours interacts with people who have other personalities can go a long way and I think just improve the relationships.

[A]

Yes, absolutely. All right, good. Now we're going to get to the fun stuff. A little bit about you, the man behind the curtain here. So. All right, so outside of your day job, outside of everything you've been doing over the last 20 some odd years, if you weren't doing this, what would you be doing? What are you most passionate that you.

[B]

Can make money from?

[A]

No, no. I mean, I love poetry. I would be writing poetry and screenplays if I could do it, you know.

[B]

You do write poetry.

[A]

I do. I still, yeah.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

Well, I don't sleep either, so. I mean, never sleeps, Ed. Never sleeps. I. It's like.

[B]

Well, as I get older, I don't sleep enough either. Yeah, I did like one haiku once and you commented that it was good.

[A]

I did, yes, that's right.

[B]

But they didn't start or once was a man from Nantucky.

[A]

That's a limerick, not a haiku.

[B]

No, no. Yeah, that's right. You know, I don't know. I love traveling. I like food. Good or bad for that? You know, I like music. Love music. And then when we can combine like those things together, just from a personal perspective, it's my wife and I, that's one of our favorite things to do is travel for music and, you know, hopefully enjoy food. So you know that to be true because I've seen you at events before that were nowhere near homes.

[A]

That's right. We're going to get to that event, too. That was majestic on so many levels. Like. So no hobbies? No. Like woodworking? Nothing like that or not a woodworker.

[B]

You know, I don't like to fish all that much. I do like to golf, so we live in a golf. Met in this area. We have an rv, so we travel in the rv.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Which is kind of cool.

[A]

Let's talk about RV travel. I. I didn't know that. Maybe you told me. I don't remember. But, you know, how long ago did you purchase the rv?

[B]

We started about three years ago.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I remember we were complete novices. Right. Had never done and talked about doing it. You know, our kids are all growing out of the house and we'll see grandkids, but we're like four hours plus away from the closest ones, you know, so it's adventure to make that happen. And so we bought a motorhome, you know, for the first thing, and purposely bought one. It was a few years ago, so, you know, I didn't know if we'd even like it. And we liked that we were gone. The longest stint we were gone was six weeks. One time in a consecutively.

[A]

Whoa. Where did you go?

[B]

We were in northern Michigan, Northern part of the lower peninsula. We're both from Michigan originally.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Like Mackinac. Is that north?

[B]

Yeah, sort of. That area, the coastal Lake Michigan. Nice. We live on the ocean right now. I think it's prettier there, you know, along coastal Lake Michigan than the ocean here is gorgeous. So. And we have family in the general area.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we've done that. We actually just traded a couple months ago to a different kind of RV just to get a little bit more space in it. So when we're trailing and I'm working, I got like, some real private space now.

[A]

It's got nice full shower, full primary bedroom, bathroom.

[B]

Two bedrooms. You know, the outdoor.

[A]

Like a house on wheels.

[B]

Yeah. It's too bad. If you want to laugh sometime, watch me back that thing out, man.

[A]

I drove a U haul truck one day, and I almost literally took out a gas station. Like, I literally. Around the corner and not like, you know how they have those steel. Those steel reinforcement things. They do that for a reason. Because I just, like, literally crunched one one day.

[B]

It is.

[A]

It's tough. I don't know how you. How did you manage to do that?

[B]

Driving in motorhome wasn't too bad once you figured out the first time we changed to a fifth wheeler. If you know that setup, which I know it's not supposed to be as cool as a motorhomes, but I'll tell you what, living space, it's way more. So I had to buy a big old, you know, diesel pickup truck and. Oh, total fifth wheeler. So it's trying to hook in the bed, and that's a new learning curve. Backing that thing up is.

[A]

It's like back in a boat. Up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Counterintuitive.

[B]

43Ft long, and you have no visibility behind you. You know, that's. You're exactly right.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, can you get cameras behind it, though?

[B]

Yeah, it's got a camera, but it's just hard to make it, you know, just it. The perspectives.

[A]

That's awesome. The other thing I've thought about doing is traveling just like out of the house for a year and living in Europe and across Europe and have you thought about that, too?

[B]

Yeah, it's less ideal when you're trying to work, like, U.S. hours.

[A]

Yeah. You can't do it. You can't do it when you're working.

[B]

It's hard to do, but yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I could move to Europe, I think, you know, also for family. I could see why so many people retire in some of those places. I mean, we love France.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And a few other places that are beautiful.

[A]

Are you gonna retire anytime soon?

[B]

No, sorry. Yeah, I am old, but I don't. I don't feel that old yet. So I don't think so.

[A]

I tried it once and it was just. I just need. I need. I think I have ADHD severe, and so I need multiple, like, stimuli to.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You know, so we do have the hobbies that we do that stuff. This will really crack you up. You know, traveling in the. In the rv. And we always take our dog and we usually take. We have a bird, and so we usually take the bird, you know, and, you know, with the virtual backgrounds, it's so funny. Like, I was in a teams meeting once and this bird was on my shoulder, but no one could see it because that stuff is really good. Like, it just blocks it out. And so, yeah, at one point, I like, de cloak the Klingon ship or whatever, and there's a bird on my shoulder. And people get cracked up about that.

[A]

And they probably think it's not real. It's part of the whole zoom thing. Right. Yeah, that's right. What kind of bird is it?

[B]

That one's an African gray. We've got another bird that's too big to take, so we don't take him.

[A]

Wow, look at you, Birdman. I didn't know that about you.

[B]

That's a. Yeah. Don't ever get one. I'll take that.

[A]

What kind of dog do you have?

[B]

He's a lab mix. You know, we've had labs for 30 years.

[A]

Labs are awesome.

[B]

Yeah, I agree.

[A]

All right, so what would you tell yourself if you could go back when you were 20 years old? What would you tell your 20 year old self?

[B]

Don't get married. No, wait, have that part edited out.

[A]

I'm leaving it in. Sorry, this too far in. Have that. I'll edit it if you want me to.

[B]

You know, that's kidding.

[A]

So literally, I think gay would laugh.

[B]

She. She would slap me in and then laugh. But we just celebrated being together. Get ready for this. 40 years.

[A]

Whoa, dude, that's. Congrats.

[B]

Incredible to me.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

I was like nine when we met, like, you know, other day. But, you know, here's.

[A]

And she was three.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. The. The thing that everyone's dad tells them or you read about, you know, like, save some money early when you can. I didn't, you know, because it was just the circumstances. Gay had a couple of young daughters that are my daughters now.

[A]

And. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, it's just different. I was. Yeah, we were both young. And if you can. And, you know, I've sort of convinced my kids to try to figure that out. That's one thing. So that's a very personal thing. But you. You're going to probably have to work. Right. Nothing wrong with that. Find work that gives you energy. Don't find work that takes energy away from you.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You ever end up where it's drawn energy away from you, it's time for a change.

[A]

That's right. I think Charles Bukowski, a poet, said, find what you love and let it kill you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Or do what you love and let it kill you or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, I agree. Absolutely. Life's too short. And if you can't get up every morning and love what you do, why are you doing it? Just go find what you love to do.

[B]

And not everything's a picnic. Right.

[A]

It's still work, but nothing is a picnic.

[B]

Gotta enjoy it. And you got to get energy from it. And people can tell those people who get energized by what they're doing, it's, you know.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Sort of rubs off on everybody versus those.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Riskiest thing. I have to ask this question. Risk never Sleeps podcast Edrics. What's the riskiest thing you've ever done? And it can't be back a trailer up either. I'm not going to take that.

[B]

You should see me do it. But you're like, professionally. I'm going to land right in your sweet spot. Right. Here's the one thing I do not miss about being a CIO. That 247 fear that something bad is happening. From an information security perspective.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That has so much risk. I don't miss that. I feel for my colleagues. We're in the role, you know, we try to help. We also have some services around it, Security. But it's more around assurance and assessment. Like that. We're not a technology company necessarily, but that's risky. I think, you know, taking our new leadership role set expanded what I did. I think when I left, I get smaller scale than, you know, a lot of the giant health systems, but still a big operation. I think when I left Buford and I had 44 departments that rolled up to me, so it was like all the ancillary departments that were clinical in business, all the service departments. So, yeah, everything from security and food and nutrition to laboratory and imaging services and even some nursing areas, which is kind of weird, but what a great opportunity to learn. You know, it was so good for me to learn. I didn't really do anything. I think you knew that part. But. So we had good leaders in all those areas. But to learn, you know, I don't.

[A]

Believe that I've seen you at work, my friend. I don't believe that. And by the way, to listeners, like, don't think you're going to get 44 times the pay either when you take on.

[B]

It doesn't scale like that.

[A]

It doesn't. No, no, that's good. How about personally skydiving, Hang lighting, You know, shark hunting.

[B]

I have not done. I've done the hot air balloon. I've done fighters. We actually know Dana picked up from our wedding reception in a hot air balloon and taken away. Whoa.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is kind of cool.

[A]

That's very cool.

[B]

Yeah, that was interesting. That's not super risky.

[A]

Unless hot air balloons are very risky.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe don't smoke. You know, there's a few rules. Right. But, you know, it's funny. Like, I love roller coasters and that kind of stuff, but that. This weird fear of heights. I think a lot of people probably do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Weird fear of falling or hitting the ground, you know, that's probably it. But I'll do anything. She's even in Portugal. We were in Lisbon. Where were we in Portal. And this really, really high bridge that was both a bus or a train track. And, you know, walking. I was like, wow, this is pretty cool. But the ledge is only about this high, you know, and so you're walking over there. Here's probably the riskiest. I don't know if it is or not. Probably 10 years or so ago. One of my other hobbies that I didn't mention is I like to ride motorcycles. And I had a group of friends we always go on trips with. But I had to go. I got to go to Vegas to. I think I was speaking at an HSMA conference, believe it or not. So it was an IT work. And. But I went a few days early and ran a device there and rode to the Grand Canyon. I just always, for some reason, I wanted to do that, like this solo mission and did that. And it was all great until you get to the bridge going over the Hoover Dam. And I don't know what it is. Feels like it's 30,000ft high. It's probably a little less than that, but. Holy, you're up there right away. All right. Don't fall down here. But it was awesome. It was a great trip.

[A]

Yeah. That's cool. And that's. Those are risky, by the way. Those are risky.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I think you might be the riskiest guest. No, I'm just kidding. But let's go into music. Let's start off with. You're on a desert island. You can bring five records with you. What would they be?

[B]

All right, this will tell you my age a little bit.

[A]

I'm glad you didn't ask me what a record was either.

[B]

Yeah, I know. I don't. I don't know what a download is, but I know what a record is. You know, just of the things that I really like, like you're on an.

[A]

Island, so remember five of them. That's it. No greatest hits either. Don't you.

[B]

I'm assuming you've asked some sort of a vinyl player, right?

[A]

You don't you. Oh, yeah. All vinyl.

[B]

All right. One of my favorites. All time. Wish you were here. Thanks, Lloyd. Just.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah, I'm a really bad hobby guitar player, but I'm a David Gilmore fan and love the music. Love his style, you know. I think so many people also Led Zeppelin with that music. This one might crack you up a little bit, but this is my sweet spot for age cardio speedwagon. I'm a big fan. We just grew up tuna fish. You can tune a piano, but you can't tune.

[A]

Great album. Great. And a lot of amazing breakup songs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've had from personal experience one of my. And not me breaking up either, by the way.

[B]

Definitely one of my favorite all time albums for sure.

[A]

Time for Me to fly. Great song that's on that album.

[B]

All of the changes.

[A]

Changes. Oh, my God.

[B]

So also a great guitarist who's passed away, but, you know, I mean, the guy playing with him now is great. But Gary Richrath was the original. I love that. Here's a more recent one. I don't even think I've told you this. I mentioned, you know, we like to travel for music too. Two years ago, I think, and I traveled to London and saw Peter Frampton in Royal Albert Hall. Wow.

[A]

That's a. I heard that was an amazing show.

[B]

Was amazing. And there is an album of that. In fact, PBS filmed it and so it's supposed to actually be his last live show ever. He's got this degenerative condition and he can still play and sing, but he has a little trouble walking. He had to have somebody support him.

[A]

I can.

[B]

And he sat the whole time. It's awesome. So we got, like, right up front tickets because I wanted to see it right. And experience it. Right. He's one of my heroes, and it was awesome. So there is an album of that.

[A]

And do you remember what band he was in before he became humble? Yes. Yeah. Not many people know that. Exactly.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I'm a fan.

[A]

Oh, he's awesome. Frampton Comes Alive. Like, first of all, I would hide things in that album, but I don't go there. But I would play that incessantly. That album was like. That was part of my childhood.

[B]

I hope I'm not telling a lie. Last I knew this was still true. The last I knew that was the highest selling live album of all time.

[A]

I think that was true for a lot. I don't know if that's still the case. May not be true for the longest time. Yeah, yeah. Do you feel like we do with the voice box? Come on. That's like.

[B]

Yeah, he still does those. And it's awesome. He's got his old Les Paul back that he lost in the plane crash, the fire. And somebody found that. Like, some person recognized it for what it was, and Gibson refurbished it, but it looks like he let the body stay kind of dinged up because it's a cool retro look. And then redid the electronics. And he still plays that guitar. He loves it.

[A]

I hear that song, I travel back to, I don't know, 70 something. And I smell the incense and I see my black light posters on my wall. It's just.

[B]

That's our time, man.

[A]

No, it's a great, great album. Okay, so that's three. Three good ones, by the way. Three good ones right out of the. Yeah, two more. Two more.

[B]

Wow. I get five, huh? I mean, I thought you were gonna.

[A]

Say, like, catfish in the bottleman or something crazy like that.

[B]

No, but, you know, like, I love, like, the old fluid Mac, like the Peter Green years or whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That stuff is awesome to me. Not. Not that. The. Yeah, more current. Like 1977.

[A]

I get it. Like. Like Chicago Transit Authority. Yeah, the original Chicago. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, man, you got there. Right? You know, I'm a Zeppelin fan. A Zeppelin 4 album. I still.

[A]

That's 4. Okay. That's good.

[B]

One of my favorites.

[A]

I love Presence. That's like. I Don't know why. Something about it. It's still contemporary, but I love. I'm. I'm a huge Zeppelin fan as well. That was. Yeah. Door Zeppelin. Dead. Sort of my three.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny, I was never a Dead fan. Like. Like, I like the music and I appreciated it and just what I'm not. I've never seen even one of the Den company showed, so.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

I know. How many you've been to?

[A]

Well, I just. Well, probably over 100 shows. But I just did. I went to the Sphere in Vegas. Let me tell you. I did three back to back shows with my. I turned my girls on to the Dead, so they go now with me, which is great. And my middle daughter's having a baby, so I'm going to be a grandfather. And I just ordered today all this little Dead stuff for the like bibs. Dead bibs and little onesies and things. The Sphere. Ed, you have to go.

[B]

Seriously. All right.

[A]

If you've never been to a Dead show, by the way. Oh, you have.

[B]

I saw you two there and get this. And like, I mean, almost exactly a month, it's later October, the day before the Health conference starts. I bought tickets for the Eagles there.

[A]

Oh, you're going?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I'll be there.

[A]

You're going alone or.

[B]

No, Jay's going to come down.

[A]

Oh, good.

[B]

I always, never been to Vegas. I probably been there 20 times and she's never been.

[A]

She's never been to Vegas.

[B]

It'll be her first time to see Vegas thing. But we're going to see the Eagles this year.

[A]

Yeah, well, I might go because I'm going to go to Health now. I'm trying to figure out my date, so if I go, I'll let you know.

[B]

Yeah, definitely do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Eagles.

[A]

You staying at the Venetian or.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, cool. That's my favorite hotel.

[B]

We. But you know, I'd rather get Marriott points. But they had these like VIP packages. Yeah, you get the tickets and you stay right there. So easy.

[A]

Are you in like the 200 seats? Yeah, yeah, that's the best place because if you get too close, you won't be. I mean, you, you know, you've already been, so.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. I'm almost in the same spot I was when I saw you two and it just worked out beautifully. It wasn't their first show, but it was like the second weekend that the Sphere was open. So it's still like that new car snow in there, you know.

[A]

Oh, we did three back to back. I was blown Away not only by the visuals, obviously. They're just. Can't even explain for listeners. If you can get to the sphere. Get to the sphere. Especially if you love music. And it's like no other concert experience but the audio. Ed, did you notice the audio? The clarity, the fidelity of the audio was like. It was nothing. Nothing I've ever heard. So, yeah, incredible.

[B]

No, that was a great experience.

[A]

All right. Best concert.

[B]

You set me up for the slam.

[A]

No, I don't know. I. I mean, I'm just asking because I've got. Well, before we go there. Before we go there, we've been. Did you see the killers at the VMware show?

[B]

I did not, no.

[A]

Okay. Did you see Bon Jovi?

[B]

Yeah, I saw at VM World once. It was. They had the San Francisco. The baseball stadium, and it was Train.

[A]

I think I was there with you.

[B]

Imagine when I were together.

[A]

Yeah, I saw you there.

[B]

Yeah. That was actually really good.

[A]

That was a great show. That was. I love Train. I. I've seen them probably a dozen times. They're always good. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Have you seen the Killers before?

[B]

I have not.

[A]

Oh, that's great. That's a great show. Okay. Favorite show.

[B]

All right. Probably the best experience. I'm going to tell you this, like, the full experience, whatever. And you know my answer to this? What's it been? Has it been eight years now? Maybe eight years.

[A]

It's been eight years, yeah.

[B]

That desert trip series.

[A]

Desert trip.

[B]

Palm Springs area or Indio, I guess Indio. It was Coachella.

[A]

Old cello. Why haven't they done that again? I don't understand why. That was, by the way, a fluke that I. I even saw it and was invited to. That was an amazing. I agree with you, by the way. And I've been to Live Aid in Philly.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Which, by the way, was probably, you know, either the first or second best experience. But I was a kid, that desert trip show, that three days. I mean, people don't. When I tell people about it, no one's even heard of it. Like.

[B]

Yeah, it's crazy. Like, if. Crowd was huge, obviously, the bands were all legends. Right? So three nights concerts, every two full concerts a day.

[A]

Yeah. And we had, let's see, Dylan, Stones the first day. Right. We had Neil Young and Paul McCartney the second day, which was. That was fantastic.

[B]

Neil Young impressed me.

[A]

The third day, the who and Roger Waters was Roger Waters. Like. I mean, he got a little preachy there, but he was. Was he?

[B]

Yeah, that was.

[A]

That was incredible.

[B]

It was almost like listening to the album, it was so good. The quality of that music and everything. And I love the Stones, and I.

[A]

Love that Animals album. Was one of my favorite Pink Floyd albums. I mean, wish you were here is amazing, too, but. And they played a lot of cuts off of the Animals album, which I thought, great. Yeah. No, that was amazing. And talk about motorcycles. We rented Indian Chiefs, and I think I told you that, right?

[B]

We went out there, the pictures.

[A]

Yeah. Almost died because the winds were so crazy. We had to turn around. We were trying to go to Joshua Tree Motel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where Grand Parsons died, to pay homage. But we clearly didn't make it. So I'm glad because we probably wouldn't have made it back for the show.

[B]

In retrospect, that weekend was really good. The weather was awesome. It's a great place for a crowd like that, so. And, you know, I'm too old to be in the lawn back there. There were a ton of people. I mean, it went back. I know at least of people. But, you know, having seats up where you could see what was going on was pretty nice, too. And that was a great experience.

[A]

It wasn't it? Amazing. And it's like, you tell people, and they're like, yeah, never heard of that. Then you tell them the bands, and they're like, what?

[B]

The one that I just was the least interested in, out of it, not that I wasn't interested in about, was Neil Young. He impressed me the most.

[A]

Oh, he was.

[B]

The show was phenomenal.

[A]

He's one of my favorites.

[B]

Yeah, it was.

[A]

I mean, all those bands were, like, my favorites. So it was. I thought the Stone. And I actually ran. I was with my buddy. Remember Vinnie, that you met?

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

We ranked them and. Because I've seen the stones probably 25, 30 times, I thought they mailed it in. I was not impressed. I thought, actually, Roger Waters, the who, Neil Young, like, those were amazing shows.

[B]

I don't know. G said something about, you know, Paul McCartney was singing and said, it sounds like he's losing his voice a lot. I said, listen, you still want in Beetle. And he's right there. I mean, he was right in front of us.

[A]

He's right there and he's playing amazingly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And then he had Rihanna on stage, and I actually was asked to leave the pool that she was swimming in because her entourage came and they were staying at the same hotel we were.

[B]

Staying at, the awesome.

[A]

Yeah. So we had to move out of the pool and go into the. Yeah, they were. But she was great. I thought she was fine.

[B]

We Did. I've seen the Stones a handful of times. Not 25, but we just saw them. You've probably seen him on this tour, too. But it was a me two or three months ago up in Chicago, Soldier Field.

[A]

You went to that?

[B]

Yeah, that was a great one.

[A]

No, I haven't seen him. The last show was probably two, three years, I think. I don't think I've seen him without Charlie.

[B]

They pay homage to him for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Through the show a little bit. And at the end, they were all wearing T shirts that had his picture on and stuff. That's kind of cool. That's so cool. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it's amazing. I mean, I. I watched the live show. The G. Live show from the. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that was a few years ago, obviously, but still, just to watch Mick Jagger, like, do what he does.

[B]

At his age, he still dances. I mean, he does a really good. All of those guys, 80 years old and they're standing there for three hours. I mean, that's pretty impressive in and of itself.

[A]

So, yeah, there's this meme. I don't know if you've seen it. I love it. But it always comes up, you know, on Facebook, Whatever. At some point we have to ask ourselves what kind of world we're going to leave. Keith Richards.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

It's because he's not gonna outlive us. All right.

[B]

Yeah. I think they were better this year than that year for sure. Just the quality and their performance, I thought was. I was. I was very impressed.

[A]

We've gone long, Ed. I just want you to know this is probably the longest recording.

[B]

Oh, sorry. I know.

[A]

It's all good. I could talk to you for hours, but I mean, I want to be respectful of your time. Any last comments or guidance or advice to individuals coming out of school looking to break into healthcare or cyber or it?

[B]

You know, I still think they're all great, obviously great careers. I'm a healthcare fan. I just can't imagine having worked in any industry and I'm a clinician, as you know. But it's interesting that so many like CIOs now are clinicians. That makes it tougher for just dumb old people like me to. If you want that job again. But I love that. I think the it. The world is an it world now, right? You learn how to take care of people, your technical skills will get better all the time. Right. If you're taking care of people, you're going to go far in your world is the risk and managing risk and knowing risk and understanding it. You know, a lot of people think that information security is a technical problem. It's not. It's a risk management problem. And, you know, if you put the focus on that, you're going to be far from their head than just buying another widget, you know.

[A]

Excellent. Yeah, no, excellent advice. And remember that empathy. Remember to keep that empathy front and center. Because we serve right and serve alongside. Don't serve in spite of right. Always remember what you do and why you're doing it and the mission of healthcare, which is where we started and where we'll end. Thank you, Ed, for your time today. It's been great to host you on the program. This is Ed Gaudet from the Risk Never Sleeps podcast. And if you're on the front lines protecting patient safety and delivering patient care, remember to stay vigilant because risk never sleeps. Thanks for listening to Risk Never Sleeps. For the show, notes, resources and more information and how to transform the protection of patient safety, Visit [e-mail] that's C E N S I N E T.com I'm your host, Ed Gaudet. And until next time, stay vigilant because risk never sleeps.