Episode #177. What A Misdiagnosis Story Reveals About Trust In Healthcare, with Dr. Jodyn Platt, an associate professor at the University of Michigan Medical School

Summary

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Risk Never Sleeps Podcast

Episode #177: What A Misdiagnosis Story Reveals About Trust In Healthcare
Guest: Dr. Jodyn Platt (Associate Professor, University of Michigan Medical School)
Host: Ed Gaudet
Release Date: December 29, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores patient trust in healthcare systems, especially in the context of AI adoption and medical misdiagnosis. Host Ed Gaudet and co-host Soul engage in a lively, candid conversation with Dr. Jodyn Platt about her research on patient perspectives on AI in medicine, the nuances of trust and skepticism, and how personal experiences shape our relationship with healthcare technology. The discussion also weaves in lighter moments, touching on Dr. Platt's personal interests, risk-taking, and meaningful takeaways from the AI Med 2025 conference.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Jodyn Platt’s Work and Focus

• Background: Dr. Platt is a social scientist in the Department of Learning Health Sciences at the University of Michigan Medical School. Her expertise spans public health and sociology, focusing on system-level population health rather than individual profiling.

  • “I look at people in big number. I don't care. Individuals are—” (C, 01:08)
  • “You matter. We all matter.” (C, 01:15)

• Area of Study: She examines how patients and the public feel about AI in their care, data collection, and their role in decision-making about health technology.

  • “What patients and the public think about how AI is used in their care and how we collect data about them and use that data. And what's their role in making decisions about AI technology.” (C, 03:42)

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2. Patient Attitudes Toward AI in Healthcare

• Transparency is Key:

  • Patients overwhelmingly want to be informed if AI is being used in their care—driven both by skepticism and a desire to be involved in their own health decisions.
    • “We know patients really want to know that AI is being used in their care.” (C, 04:00)
    • “I think they don't trust it particularly. And I also think they like to be a part of their care.” (C, 04:10)

• Three Types of Patient Reactions:

  1. Indifferent: Find it “interesting” but move on.
  2. Engaged: Want ongoing updates and involvement.
  3. Concerned/Angry: Oppose their data being used in this way.
     • “There's another group of people that are like, ‘Oh, that's really interesting. I want to keep knowing more.’ …And then there's a third group of people that are just mad.” (C, 04:46)

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3. Trust, Skepticism, and the Impact of Misdiagnosis

• Personal Story: Host Ed Gaudet shares a powerful story about being misdiagnosed with Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease as a young adult, leading to deep skepticism about the medical system.

  • “I was misdiagnosed as a kid, and it's really affected me.” (A, 05:40)
  • “That's scary.” (C, 05:59)
  • The correct diagnosis: a sports medicine doctor traced his symptoms to crossing his legs and affecting a nerve, not a neurological disease.
    • “I was crossing my legs, cutting off a nerve. That's correct. That's what was causing the issue. I didn't have Charcot Marie Tooth. Am I in a wheelchair? No. True story.” (A, 06:24–6:40)

• Lasting Effects of Misdiagnosis:

  • “Once you hear that, like, you go, wait. Everything else. Skeptical. Right.” (A, 06:44)
  • “Makes you skeptical.” (B, 06:44)
  • “Yeah. It makes you really cynical.” (A, 06:47)

• Language Matters: The hosts and guest note the importance of distinguishing between skepticism and cynicism.

  • “Words matter.” (A, 07:03)

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4. AI Accountability and Governance in Healthcare

• Need for a Registry:

  • Dr. Platt advocates for a dynamic, census-like registry to track AI use, impact, and operational details across organizations—helping innovation while maintaining oversight.

    • “We need basically a registry kind of system for AI where we can understand what's being used in the real world, what its impact is…” (C, 15:10)

  • Comparing to the Census:

    • “The mental model I have for it is a little bit like the census, where you have a certain amount of data that you’re constantly trying to collect on a periodic basis, you can build on top of that…” (C, 16:09)

• Challenges of Dynamism in AI:

  • The registry must be more dynamic than static systems like the census to reflect rapid AI evolution.
    • “Everything in AI needs to be a dynamic kind of process.” (C, 16:08)
    • “By the time it’s filled out, it’s changed already.” (A, 17:37)

• Automation as a Solution:

  • “It needs to be automated. You have to figure out ways to automate the process.” (C, 17:28)

• Discussion of Immutability:

  • The group considers what attributes in AI (like ontology, disease domains) are stable enough to serve as key registry features.
    • “Is there anything about AI that's immutable?” (A, 18:33)
    • “There are certain, like, disease domains. Right. What is this being used?” (C, 18:41)

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5. Lighter Moments: Personal and Professional Side of Dr. Platt

• Personal Interests and Travel:

  • Enjoys running, hiking, travel (Iceland, Kenya, Botswana, South Africa, Spain—prefers Madrid to Barcelona).
    • “Well, so I enjoy running and being outdoors.” (C, 09:59)
    • “I like to travel a lot.” (C, 20:30)
    • “I was in Kenya... research trip. They're building... a data science network...” (C, 21:58)

• Music and Books:

  • Struggles to remember album names but enjoys various music and fiction/fantasy books.
    • “I hear music and I like it, but then I can’t put that, like, a name and an album.” (C, 07:47)
    • “I like fiction. A little fantasy here and there.” (C, 08:39)

• Risk-Taking (and Surfing):

  • Not a thrill-seeker—has surfed in Hawaii, with the memorable lesson: “Never go for the first wave. You always go for the second wave because everybody’s going to go after that first one… But there’s always a second wave right afterwards.” (C, 19:41)

• Conferencing & Inclusion:

  • Reflects on the inclusive spirit of AI Med 2025, emphasizing diverse perspectives.
    • “I think I'll take back the sort of inclusive nature of the conference. We need all of us.” (C, 25:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Patient Attitudes Toward AI:

  • “Patients really want to know that AI is being used in their care.” — Dr. Platt (04:00)

• On Healthcare Trust:

  • “I was misdiagnosed as a kid, and it's really affected me.” — Ed Gaudet (05:40)

• On AI Accountability:

  • “We need basically a registry kind of system for AI where we can understand what's being used in the real world, what its impact is and how it's operating...” — Dr. Platt (15:10)

• On Personal Growth:

  • “Go for it. I was shy. I am a shy, extroverted person.” — Dr. Platt, advice to her younger self (10:32)

• On Conference Takeaways:

  • “We need all of us.” — Dr. Platt, on inclusion in AI and healthcare innovation (25:26)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:39–03:42 – Dr. Platt introduces her research focus
• 04:00–04:39 – Patient attitudes toward AI and desire for transparency
• 05:40–06:44 – Ed Gaudet shares his misdiagnosis and resultant skepticism
• 15:01–17:37 – Dr. Platt’s proposal for an AI registry and discussion about governance
• 19:28–20:07 – Surfing lessons and risk-taking
• 20:30–24:02 – Dr. Platt’s favorite travel experiences
• 25:26–25:36 – Final takeaway: inclusivity as an imperative for healthcare innovation

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Tone and Style

The conversation is energetic, personable, and candid—marked by friendly teasing, humor, and reflective moments. The hosts oscillate between serious inquiries into AI, healthcare trust, and empathetic patient care, and lighter, more personal exchanges about music, travel, and life outside of academia.

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Takeaway Message

Dr. Platt’s central message: creating a culture of participation, inclusivity, and transparency is essential as AI permeates healthcare. Trust is built through awareness, accountability, and a willingness to invite all stakeholders into the conversation.

“We need all of us.” — Dr. Jodyn Platt (25:26)

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Connect with Dr. Jodyn Platt

• Email: [e-mail]
• LinkedIn: Jodyn Platt

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[This summary excludes advertisements, intros/outros, and non-content banter. For additional resources, visit www.censinet.com.]

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Welcome to Risk Never Sleeps, where we meet and get to know the people delivering patient care and protecting patient safety. I'm your host, Ed Gaudet.

[B]

We are here at aimed 25 and here on the Insight Series podcast, sponsored by Senseinet and Outcomes Rocket, I'm joined by my co host, Ed Gaudette.

[A]

Hey, Soul.

[B]

What's up, brother? We are here at the end of day two.

[A]

At the end.

[C]

I know.

[A]

Is she our last guest?

[B]

She's our last guest.

[A]

All right. Jodi, you rock. Nice.

[B]

Dr. Jodi Platt is an associate professor at the University of Michigan.

[A]

Go blue.

[B]

So excited to have you join us.

[C]

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

[B]

Let's dig into it. Tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you're up to.

[C]

Yeah. So I work at the University of Michigan in the Department of Learning Health Sciences. I have a background in social science, so. Public health, Health and sociology.

[A]

Oh, she's reading me. I can tell already. She's already trying.

[C]

That's right. I look at people in big number. I don't care. Individuals are.

[A]

Oh, I don't matter as an individual.

[C]

You matter. We all matter.

[A]

Listen, I don't. I'm not in any cohort you've ever studied. Unless you're a profiler.

[C]

No, not. Not that kind of sociologist.

[A]

I just made Saul uncomfortable again. Day two.

[B]

It happens on every podcast.

[A]

No, it's the end of the day and we gotta get to the truth here. Jo. Speak youk Truth. What did you love about this show?

[C]

So the conference is interesting because it brings together, I think, people from all over the AI health space, and that's a cool thing to see happen. So we've got developers here, we've got health system people, we've got clinicians, we've got random people like me. Like, it's fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, it's fun to see.

[A]

At the shared pinnacle of AI adoption.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the industry. It's amazing, isn't it?

[C]

It is amazing.

[A]

All these innovators together.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Sharing ideas, moving to adoption, implementation of AI. That, to me, is the theme. More implementation this year, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you go last year?

[C]

It did not come last year. No.

[B]

Neither did I. Yeah, neither did I. We're all first timers.

[A]

We're all first timers.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You coming back in 26.

[C]

Where is it?

[A]

Might. Might be in Puerto Rico.

[B]

Oh, is it really?

[A]

Well, remember St. Regis?

[B]

Oh, yeah. But he's talking about doing an AI thing in Puerto Rico. That's a different thing.

[A]

Not him. The guy that was Sitting.

[B]

No, I know. Yeah. So we still have to figure out where it's going to be next year anyway.

[C]

Yes, I would come back. I would come back because it's.

[A]

Don't try to keep us organized, Jody. We're not going to play in your little sociological box. Yeah, your box. Your little cage. Come on now.

[B]

I had a great opportunity to chat with Jody at dinner last night. We had a great dinner.

[A]

What did you have?

[C]

I had the swordfish.

[A]

You did? How was it?

[C]

It was good.

[A]

Was it thick or was it thin?

[C]

It was thick.

[A]

It was.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, it was a real good piece.

[A]

Yeah. I had the sea bass.

[C]

Yeah, it's popular.

[A]

Really good. Yeah.

[B]

Stink.

[A]

They sold me in the sea bass.

[B]

Did they?

[A]

Yeah. I didn't want steak. I'm like, I gotta have fish place. Sally's on the water.

[B]

I was feeling snake. It was good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Enjoyed it. And anyway, we had an incredible time. And, Jody, you started getting into some of the work that you're looking at. So let's just give folks an opportunity to better understand your focus area with AI, because I thought it was very interesting.

[A]

Yeah. Like his co host, I'd like to know what you're doing.

[C]

Right.

[A]

More importantly, I sat at another table, so I didn't get a chance to.

[C]

So a lot of what I do and have done for a long time is understand what patients and the public think about how AI is used in their care and how we collect data about them and use that data. And what's their role in making decisions about AI technology.

[A]

What's the early data showing?

[C]

Well, a few things. One is, we know patients really want to know that AI is being used in their care. Like, they really want to know.

[A]

Yeah. Why do you think they want to know?

[C]

I think they don't trust it particularly. And I also think they like to be a part of their care. Right. There's like, they're a big. They have a big role in their health. And if they're being studied and with new things, they want to be part of that. It's part of the. People also like to engage with shared decision making with their doctors. And this is just. It's another piece of what they're doing. So it addresses both their sort of skepticism, but also their desire to be part of their care.

[A]

Do you ask them what they'd do with the data if they knew that?

[C]

What they do with the information?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If they knew their data was being used, like, what would they do with that?

[C]

People have three different reactions when you're like, oh, we have all this data about you. We're going to do some stuff with it, research or build tools or create new innovations. And then there's one group of people that doesn't care. They're like, oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that. And then they go on with their lives. There's another group of people that are like, oh, that's really interesting. I want to keep knowing more. Keep me in the loop. Tell me how this is going. And then there's a third group of people that are just mad.

[A]

Mad?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Really?

[C]

And they're like, I'm not into that.

[B]

Where do you fall on that? In that. In those buckets?

[C]

I think I'm somewhere between the first and the second. I think it's important to have that sort of transparency, but I don't have a lot of time to keep track of it. I don't need to, but it's another thing for me to do and that I don't.

[B]

I fall on the second. What about you, Ed?

[A]

I'm mad as hell.

[B]

You're mad as hell.

[A]

I'm not going to take it.

[B]

Really.

[A]

I don't go to the doctors. I don't trust them. I can't imagine, like, even adding air to it. It's. I. Yeah. I was misdiagnosed as a kid, and it's really affected me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

That's.

[A]

You know what Charcot Marie tooth is?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Neurological disease. You bend up in a wheelchair by the time you're 30. I was diagnosed with that when I was 20.

[C]

That's scary.

[A]

Yeah. First diagnosis, I didn't really. I didn't believe it. I didn't accept it. I'm like, there's no way. I was in top shape. I was running 10 miles a day. I had a foot drop and I went like, what's happening? Charcoal, Maria. So I take. I go to a second same thing, and they hook me up with the electrodes and they're giving me the test. You're going to be in a wheelchair when you're 30? I'm like, there's no way. It's not going to happen. I go to a sports medicine doctor. Do you know what he asked me?

[B]

What?

[A]

So I tell him what's happening? He goes, do you cross your legs? I go, yeah. He goes, stop doing that. And you know, that was it. I was crossing my legs, cutting off of a nerve. That's correct. That's what was causing the issue. I didn't have a Charcot Marie tooth. Am I in a wheelchair? No. True story.

[C]

It's bonkers.

[A]

Once you hear that, like, you go, wait. Everything else. Skeptical. Right. You.

[B]

Makes you skeptical.

[A]

Yeah. It makes you really cynical.

[B]

Cynical.

[A]

Yeah. Which we know the difference now.

[B]

Yes. We had a good conversation earlier about that.

[C]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

We were schooled. Yeah. By a very smart individual. Yeah. I like being schooled. He was right, though.

[B]

And it's.

[A]

Words matter.

[B]

They do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They do. Jody. So if you were stranded on a desert island, which is weird.

[C]

Is there water.

[A]

Yeah. Around you. But it's a desert island, what five.

[B]

Records would you be listening to?

[A]

Yeah. What albums?

[C]

Oh, dear.

[A]

Yeah. I'm Carole King.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

You like Carol King. I do too. Yeah.

[B]

How'd you know?

[A]

Far Away. Doesn't anybody.

[C]

Not singing.

[A]

You're not gonna sing? Not okay. You know. Wow. We hit a nerve. Bringing the nerve back into the conversation. Yeah. Five albums. Come on.

[C]

Five. That's tough. It's really so.

[A]

Well, you can name artists. We don't really.

[C]

You're not gonna actually.

[A]

Yeah. We're not gonna get too crazy.

[C]

The other thing is, like, I'm not. Like, I have a. A thing where I can't. Like, I. I hear music and I like it, but then I can't put that, like, a name and an album.

[B]

It's like me in movies. Starts. I can't. Yeah. With movies. Really?

[C]

I like music.

[A]

You do? What kind of music do you like?

[C]

I don't know. It's just, like, it's.

[A]

Oh, you don't know.

[B]

Fine. Maybe movies.

[A]

I don't think I want to be on her Island. Yeah.

[B]

5.

[A]

I'm not sure what I'd get.

[B]

5.

[C]

You could bring your own music.

[B]

Hey. See, she's cool with your music.

[A]

That was nice. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, I'm over here. I got music. Real.

[B]

What about movies instead, Jody? Night movies.

[A]

I think Judy has a. Judy. Jody has. I'm thinking Judy Faulkner.

[C]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

Do you know her?

[C]

No.

[A]

You ever met her? No. She's very interesting. Do you read books?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. What kind of books you read?

[C]

I don't know. I like fiction. A little fantasy here and there.

[A]

What kind of fantasy? Oh, Highlander fantasy. Yeah, there it is. I do. We're trying to get to know you, Joe.

[C]

Okay, let's see. So books. Do you watch movies? I have a thing. I have a weakness for, like, police procedurals.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[C]

They can't be true crime. Like, I don't want it to be true, really.

[A]

But a lot of that's written based on truth.

[C]

I don't need to know that. I Don't need to.

[B]

It's gotta be nonfiction.

[C]

It's nonfiction.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Nonfiction, like police. They have a problem, they solve it within an hour or 90 minutes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Justice is usually served in some way or another.

[A]

Oh, okay. You like that? You like that? You guys have a resolution.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. Nice. What else? She's a nice person. We can't be too mean to her today.

[B]

No.

[A]

Even though it is the last episode of the day, we're not mean to people. We're just kidding. Well, you seem a little nervous. Are you nervous about this?

[C]

I feel like I'm being recorded.

[A]

You are recording. That's the whole point of this. Did someone not tell her we're recording this?

[B]

Oh, yeah. This is a podcast, Jody. I forgot to tell you, that's what we're doing.

[A]

She's funny. She's funny, actually.

[B]

All right.

[A]

If you weren't doing your job, what would you be doing?

[C]

I'd be doing something not in front of a computer, but.

[A]

Yes, but what? Many hobbies.

[C]

Well, so I enjoy running and being outdoors. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Hiking.

[C]

Hiking is. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

It's good.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

A little fresh air.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Get away from that computer.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's deadly.

[A]

It is deadly. I know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Too much computer is not good.

[A]

It's not good. It's not good.

[C]

That's why I come to aimed really.

[A]

Just to get away from your computer. But you're surrounded by computers. Yeah. Go back in time. What would you tell your 20 year old self?

[C]

Maybe it's the rank. Just go for it.

[B]

Go for it.

[C]

I was shy. I am a shy, extroverted person. And so I was like scared of people for all time.

[A]

You seem scared of us a little bit. We're a little scary. You should be very afraid. But she's.

[B]

Oh, yeah, he looks like.

[A]

Yeah, he looks harmless, but he's not. He's not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You don't want to be with Saul after 6 o' clock in the evening. You don't?

[B]

No.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, I know it's after six. It's after six. Watch out.

[A]

Moving here for listeners. Jody looked at her watch and said, professed. We have to keep moving here. I could write a book.

[B]

You can't.

[A]

On these conversations. You can do it alone. Yeah. What's the. If you could go back in time and change one decision, what would it be?

[C]

Oh, boy, That's a tough one.

[A]

This is supposed to be about you. These are easy questions.

[C]

I need to think about this one. Something like something. I totally could be anything.

[B]

Anything.

[A]

We had some guy say he Put milk in a microwave and drank it. And he would have never done that again. I was like, okay, that's a good decision. Not to do ever again.

[C]

That's a pro tip. I didn't know it was so bad.

[A]

Well, it was hot, I guess. I think it was hot.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And he didn't really get into it. He wouldn't even actually tell us, so it sounded like it didn't go traumatic. Yeah. Yeah. He mentioned a girl too. Did you notice that?

[B]

He said something about I wasn't there for.

[A]

You mentioned, like dating a girl or something. Then he didn't go on the date or something. I don't know. It was very.

[C]

Because they put milk in the microwave.

[A]

I was thinking about who.

[B]

I don't know if they're related.

[A]

I don't know. I'm wondering what's happening. I don't know. Now we saw long enough for you to come up with an idea. Yeah, no, I'm just.

[C]

Anyway. Right.

[A]

Could be anything.

[C]

It's true.

[A]

But the more interesting it is, the better the answer. No pressure. No pressure. None. I wouldn't have gone to Woodstock when I was a kid. Not that you were old enough to go.

[C]

I'm not that old.

[A]

Well, Woodstock 99.

[C]

Oh. Oh, that doesn't count. I wouldn't have. That's a decision I don't. I'm okay with.

[A]

Okay. Do you ever go to concerts?

[C]

9. I do go to concerts.

[A]

Which ones?

[C]

Yeah, so I.

[A]

As a person who doesn't know music but goes to concerts, I can't wait to hear what concerts you go to.

[C]

I'm lucky because my partner likes concerts, so he'll take me to concerts.

[A]

Which ones?

[C]

So here's a funny story about a concert we almost went to.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

We got tickets to see Ray Lavontaine.

[A]

Oh, I love Reylo Montaigne. Fan in the house. Do you like Noah Khan?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, cool. I'm feeling revived now. Okay. We got this.

[C]

Yeah. So anyway, he's still not singing.

[B]

I know.

[A]

He's got an unbelievable. He's a troubadour. He's got a great voice. Yeah.

[B]

So you were saying?

[C]

So we go, we got tickets, we have a nice. We had a nice dinner. We show up to the concert and there's not much of a line. We're like, this is weird.

[A]

Probably not a concert. Well, you had the wrong day.

[C]

We were a year off.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

A year off.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Man. They were selling the. They were pre. Selling.

[A]

Terrific. Boy, that's embarrassing. Who booked the tickets, you or your partner? Oh, Good. Oh, good.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I hope he's listening.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

That happened to us the other day. We booked a movie, actually.

[A]

That's a decision you go back and change.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Shouldn't have picked that partner.

[B]

And we went to the wrong theater. The.

[C]

His partner's okay.

[B]

It happens.

[C]

You'll keep him.

[A]

What does he do?

[C]

He analyzes policy for the auto industry.

[A]

You two at parties.

[C]

I know. We're just like.

[A]

How did you have. University of Michigan? No, it was.

[C]

I met him online.

[A]

Oh, cool. Yeah.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As far as AI Med goes.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Any things that you're taking back home, are you looking at things differently? Have you met anyone that has changed your mind on anything other than me?

[A]

Sorry, I couldn't resist. She's never doing a podcast again.

[B]

Start her, man.

[A]

Or maybe she likes it and she's like, I'm going back. Yeah, we're just having a conversation. That's it.

[C]

Yeah. Just having. Yeah, I can do that most days.

[A]

Oh, we got harder questions coming up.

[C]

Oh, really?

[A]

Oh, yeah. It's some build zingers.

[B]

So anything that's changed for you after this?

[C]

I have a lot of ideas about governance and how we can do a better job of making AI accountable for what it's doing.

[A]

Oh, and do tell.

[C]

Yeah. So I think we need basically a registry kind of system for AI where we can understand what's being used in the real world, what its impact is and how it's operating, like across the marketplace, not just in a single organization. Because I think with that kind of view, vantage point, we can be better at innovating because we know what we need to build.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good idea. Do you know Chai, the organization?

[C]

I do know Chai, yeah.

[A]

They're building a registry.

[C]

I believe they are building a registry. Yeah. There's a lot of places that are thinking about it. I think it's important and I think coming out in here, I'm going to keep working on it. I'm not.

[B]

It was validating.

[C]

It's validated.

[A]

Nice. With it changing so much though, what would we miss in a registry?

[C]

What do you mean?

[A]

Well, would the registry give us, what, some indication of what about the model.

[C]

It gives us an opportunity to layer on top of it of top of models. And it should be like everything in AI needs to be a dynamic kind of process.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So the mental model I have for it is a little bit like the census, where you have a certain amount of data that you're constantly trying to collect on a periodic Basis, you can build on top of that to get more in depth and information and more. Greater data about different things. And you're committed to going back and iterating on it. We have a set of basic demographic information about the people that live in the United states, but every 10 years, and we probably have to do it more often than that with AI, but we think about, like, how are we counting people? Who are we counting? What categories are we using to catego to them? And so I think if we can build that kind of set of processes. It's really a set of processes. This is a human sort of thing and not a. It's a. It's the sociologist in me.

[A]

So lineage is important.

[C]

Lineage is very important.

[A]

Data model. Lineage, event, lineage. Right. Yep. All those things have to be considered within a registry. That's what. I don't know if the registry model will handle this. I'm skeptical.

[B]

Is it too static?

[A]

It's static, yeah. First of all, I don't ever fill out the census.

[C]

No. Well, it has to be right there.

[B]

No doctors, no census.

[C]

Yeah, well, maybe you don't count.

[B]

Oh, no, I hear the radar.

[A]

There's a lot of people like me.

[C]

There are a lot of people like you.

[A]

So I'm a minute.

[C]

It needs to be automated. You have to figure out ways to automate the process. Right. So it is a huge. Like, there are a lot of people, but there needs to be, because. No, you're right. Nobody's going to fill out a model card.

[A]

No one's. And by the time it's filled out, it's changed already.

[C]

Well, it's metadata. Right. So it's like some of that metadata doesn't change. It's like, yes, no. There's a fair amount of yes, no stuff. But yeah, it does is. It does change over time. So you need.

[A]

Yeah. And some of the data is not relevant to really anything about what risks could happen at the model or event or data level. That's the problem I have. Right. Anyway. But it's interesting.

[C]

But it could tell you, like. So it could tell you how, like, how many events happened in the last year.

[A]

Yeah, okay.

[C]

And it could tell you where did those events happen in the last year? Okay.

[A]

And how they happened and how they happened and who by who. Yeah, if that was. If that was consistent and the veracity of that was good, then yeah, maybe. Okay.

[C]

All right.

[B]

A historical record.

[A]

I'm just trying to. What immutable attributes would we want to keep in the registry that tell us something over time? So then. Yeah, they're not change. They don't change. So they're. Is there anything about AI that's immutable?

[C]

Well, there are certain, like, disease domains. Right. What is this being used?

[A]

Ontologies.

[C]

Ontology.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So you don't want the ontology to change from underneath you. No. So, yeah. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, that's fair.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

That's good.

[C]

I don't have all the answers.

[A]

No.

[C]

But I definitely think it's worth.

[A]

You need an ontological lens. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Nice. Yeah.

[B]

Super interesting.

[A]

Yeah. What's the riskiest thing you've ever done? You don't seem like a risk taker.

[C]

Riskiest.

[A]

Yeah. Do you ever bungee jump?

[C]

If not bungee jump?

[A]

Jumped out of a plane?

[C]

No.

[A]

Swim with a shark?

[C]

No, I've gone snorkeling. We talked about surfing yesterday.

[A]

Oh, surfing. Oh, yeah.

[B]

She's a surfer, right.

[C]

I have surfed in Hawaii.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

That's pretty risky.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What's the biggest wave you've caught?

[C]

It wasn't very big, but the surf instructor I had on one of the things was. His name was Bully. His name was Bully.

[A]

Bully.

[C]

His name was Bully.

[A]

You were bullied.

[C]

He said surfers. Surfers are mellow dudes. But his name was Bully. But he told me was you never go for the first wave. You always go for the second wave because everybody's going to go after that first one and it's going to be crowded and you're not ready and nobody's ready. But there's always a second wave right afterwards and.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Wait for the second wave.

[A]

Unless it's a tsunami. Then you better run at that point.

[C]

Yeah. Then you're. It doesn't really matter.

[B]

Maybe under the second.

[A]

But what a hell of a wave to ride, huh? If you could do it, that'd be incredible. Yeah. What's the most interesting place you visited? It's a new question, by the way, for the show. I just made it up.

[B]

You're an innovator.

[A]

I am. I just.

[B]

Innovator.

[A]

Yeah. I'm trying to tap into the. To Jody and I'm not getting far. I'm trying to understand her. She seems very.

[C]

I like to travel a lot.

[A]

Oh, good.

[C]

I've been to some cool places. No.

[A]

Oh, okay. You've been in Hawaii. No, no, but it's cool.

[C]

It does sound like.

[A]

Yeah, it's really cool. Buddhist and cool.

[C]

I was in Iceland in the summer. I've been.

[B]

Did you see that? Northern lights?

[C]

Kenya. I did not say. No. That's on my list.

[B]

Same. I want to do that.

[A]

Really? It's just purple and green across the sky. Not a big deal.

[B]

I want.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, not a big deal.

[B]

You weren't.

[A]

I wasn't blown away. No. No. Going to Jupiter. That would blow me away. If I could get to Jupiter.

[C]

You want to go to Jupiter?

[A]

Yeah, I like Jupiter. I don't know why I like that song. Drop.

[C]

Which spaceship are you going to go in? Are you going to go to NASA spaceship or one of the new.

[A]

I'd go Elon Musk all. I would never trust NASA.

[B]

SpaceX.

[C]

SpaceX.

[A]

SpaceX is definitely.

[C]

What about the Amazon one?

[A]

No. Bezos. No.

[B]

Blue Origin.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Nah, definitely SpaceX.

[C]

NASA Space. These aren't on anymore.

[B]

More efficient.

[A]

They aren't. Oh, did I knock them off? I think she's just.

[C]

There we go.

[A]

She's kidding us to get off the podcast. She's like, I've had. So I'm done. I gotta go eat.

[B]

That guy. Stop working. Sorry.

[A]

Okay. Where have you been? That's interesting. You travel all over the place. Tell us where.

[C]

So, yes, I was in Kenya.

[A]

Oh, can you do a safari?

[C]

I have done a safari, but not on that trip. Not in Kenya.

[A]

What were you doing in Kenya?

[C]

It was actually a work trip. Research trip. Yeah. So they're building sort of a data science network thing and in Kenya and across sort of different countries in Africa. That's cool.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[C]

That's interesting because they're building things from the start in ways that we can't.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Which is nice.

[A]

What was that like? How long were we there?

[C]

It was a very short. Maybe a five days.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Not enough time.

[A]

It takes two to get there.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But it's a fun place, huh?

[A]

Takes you two. Two days of travel, right?

[C]

It's two days to travel.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Through Paris and all the things.

[A]

Been to Europe. Favorite place.

[C]

Spain.

[A]

Yeah. Barcelona.

[C]

I actually like Madrid a little better.

[B]

Really?

[C]

No, that's controversial.

[A]

Madrid's nice. I like Madrid.

[B]

Never been.

[A]

What did you like about Madrid? Late nights. Right.

[B]

Yeah. Like that. You start.

[A]

Madrid is crazy.

[B]

Dinner is like 10pm Right?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

That's everywhere.

[A]

But Madrid is something weird about Madrid. Than.

[C]

It has a sort of cosmopolitan nature that's just.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Cool.

[A]

It's. Yeah. It's like. What is it like?

[B]

I've never been.

[A]

Oh, you've never been?

[B]

No, I've been to Barcelona. Yeah, but I've not been to Madrid.

[A]

Barcelona is different. I agree. Madrid is something about Madrid, it's almost mysterious. It's got some like. Feels like there's a misty feel about it. I don't know.

[B]

Ominous.

[A]

Yeah. Ominous. It's ominous, right. Madrid, Little ominous.

[C]

I wouldn't have used that word myself, but it's got. It's the mystique. It definitely has a mystique.

[A]

It has a mystique. Tangier.

[B]

That's a better word.

[A]

It's like the Tangier of Europe.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You've been to Tangiers? Oh, Morocco.

[C]

No.

[A]

Oh, Egypt.

[C]

No. So in Africa. I've been to Kenya and Botswana in South Africa.

[A]

Oh, Botswana in South Africa.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Is that what you did with safari in South Africa?

[C]

Well, in Botswana, that was the safari. And we went spend about a week at Cape Town.

[A]

Do you see anything that scared you? The rhinos are pretty aggressive, I hear.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They just stand around and eat grass. So I didn't see it. And it's.

[B]

They did their thing, right.

[A]

Elephant.

[C]

The elephants got excited one day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Ooh.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like scary. Like to the point of. You were a little scared?

[C]

No, they're far away. And we're in a car with people that can drive. I don't know how they get away, but I assume they could drive fast.

[B]

Like, I think they can. I hope they can.

[A]

If.

[B]

Lions, tigers.

[C]

So lions, tigers, tigers. No, but lions. So lions and.

[A]

Yeah, lions are cool. I like lions. That's my spirit animal.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I'm a Leo, so.

[C]

Okay. Yeah. He's destined to Jody.

[B]

Are you gonna come back next year?

[C]

I think so.

[A]

Here with us? Yeah. I bet he's asking about us, not the show.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I was asking about.

[A]

Will you come? You come? Oh, she will. Okay.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

Okay. What do you want to leave our listeners with? Just something to think about.

[C]

Just. Well, what. Tell me, what do your listeners care.

[A]

About one of them. And that's really the only listener we have cares about interesting content, I think. Right. He's sitting right here, actually. This is not the case. This is our only listener. No, it's not true.

[C]

This is live and recorded.

[A]

It's live and recorded. That's right. Exactly. So he wants to go back and listen to it. He enjoyed it so much. Look at him. Yeah. No. What? Oh, that was funny. You like that, huh? Okay. Okay. That's funny. Yep. Yep. No, but boys with their toys.

[B]

As a result of this meeting, what would you share with folks? A takeaway? What do you want to leave them with?

[A]

What are you going to take back and apply?

[C]

I think I'll take back the sort of inclusive nature of the conference. We need all of us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's powerful. I like that.

[C]

I'll stop talking.

[A]

No, a lot of contributes. Mic drop. That's a mic drop moment. Yeah. Jody. Mic drop, bam.

[B]

And there it is.

[A]

There it is. Yeah. We waited for that, but it's worth it. Definitely worth it. No, you've been great. You've been terrific.

[C]

I really appreciate.

[A]

I wish I sat at your table because you seem.

[B]

Oh, I had a blast.

[A]

Yeah, well, I had. I had fun, too, with my folks, but. Yeah, she seems like a lot of fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But then you left. Did she leave early or not?

[C]

Everybody left after everybody left. It was inappropriate. Yeah.

[A]

All right, so I think she left early. I don't think she was. Were you there when we all came to the same table and got together? No, I don't think you were there.

[C]

No, I don't think.

[A]

Yeah, because I would have met you then. Because you would have been at my table.

[C]

I would have been at the table.

[A]

That's right. So she left early.

[C]

Two tables.

[B]

Jody, you didn't. You stayed a good amount of time.

[A]

Invited Jody, by the way. Did you.

[B]

Jody's. Jody's.

[C]

I just wanted.

[A]

How did she get an invite to the tip? How did she get an invite?

[B]

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for tuning in to another podcast. Yeah. Aimed 2022, the insight series.

[A]

It, too. Last one, right?

[B]

Yeah, last one.

[A]

Wow, look at that.

[B]

Dr. Jody Platt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Associate professor, University of Michigan. Go blue.

[A]

Go blue.

[B]

Where can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more?

[C]

I'm on the University of Michigan. I have an email. Should I say that?

[B]

Sure.

[C]

It's J E Plat P L A T T at. We say Umich Edu, but if you don't know what that means. It's Ich Edu.

[A]

You're on the LinkedIn social media platform, too?

[C]

Oh, yeah. On LinkedIn.

[B]

Okay. Cool. Get around.

[C]

Is that what people say?

[B]

Yeah, as well.

[A]

Yeah. I wouldn't give out my email, but.

[B]

I would give people emails. Sometimes people do things.

[A]

Oh, that's right. You want people to email you.

[C]

Part of my.

[A]

Okay, don't cut me off when I. Emailing you.

[B]

The mistake was giving him your email.

[A]

That's right. That's what I meant. Not anybody else. Me. That's right. Jody.

[B]

It's been a.

[A]

Now I got her email. I can find out so much about her.

[C]

Do you remember it?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You don't need to repeat it.

[B]

Okay. Thank you for being with us.

[C]

Thank you so much for having me.

[A]

Thank you. Thanks for listening to Risk. Never sleeps. For the show, notes, resources and more information and how to transform the protection of patient safety. Visit [e-mail] that's C-E N S I N-E-T.com I'm your host, Ed Gaudet. And until next time, stay vigilant because risk never sleeps.