Episode#224. Kill the Password, Not the Workflow: Rewriting Healthcare’s Biggest Lie, with Dr. Sean Kelly CMO and SVP of Customer Healthcare Strategy at Imprivata

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Risk Never Sleeps – Episode #224

Kill the Password, Not the Workflow: Rewriting Healthcare’s Biggest Lie

Host: Ed Gaudet
Guest: Dr. Sean Kelly, CMO and SVP of Customer Healthcare Strategy at Imprivata
Date: May 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the ongoing mission to replace outdated authentication methods, notably passwords, in healthcare, focusing on the double imperative of maintaining both robust security and seamless clinician workflows. Ed Gaudet and Dr. Sean Kelly, a seasoned clinician and healthcare tech leader, share stories, insights, and industry best practices around balancing security with clinical efficiency, the future of AI in healthcare, and the cultural shifts required to modernize identity and access management.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Security vs. Convenience Paradigm is Broken

• Both agree that the historic trade-off—strong security versus convenience—no longer holds up.
  • Dr. Kelly (00:37):
    “The whole concept that it’s a zero sum game where you either have security or you get convenience, we think that’s totally broken.”
  • Dr. Kelly:
    “You actually should demand more of both. Make the right thing to do the easy thing. ... We don’t dislike technology. We dislike bad technology.”

2. The Mission to Eliminate Passwords ("Kill the Password")

• Imprivata is obsessed with developing passwordless authentication—biometrics, facial recognition—to prevent phishing and enhance security without harming workflow.
  • Dr. Kelly (01:17):
    "We're obsessed with trying to bury that password and eventually even get rid of it... If it's not there, you can’t be phished."
  • Both agree: “Stop the frickin clicking!” (01:29) – a rallying cry for tech that reduces unnecessary clinician interaction steps.

3. Risks Associated with AI in Healthcare Workflows

• Major focus on how AI integrates into real-world healthcare systems, and the risks when AI “agents” take actions with clinical consequences.
  • Example: An AI agent scheduling a critical follow-up too late, leading to harm (03:41–04:18)
  • Dr. Kelly (04:15):
    “If you’ve got agents operating in your EMR... whose responsibility is it when something goes wrong? I probably get sued for that.”
• Concern that governance, security, privacy, compliance always lag behind rapid adoption of new technologies.

4. The Complexity of Identity for Non-Human Agents

• The challenge of managing digital identity is even more difficult for AI agents than for humans, requiring robust oversight.
  • Dr. Kelly (04:34):
    “It’s complicated with non-human ID. Arguably more complicated.”

5. Adaptive Security & Modern Biometric Solutions

• Imprivata’s roadmap includes:
  • Facial biometrics, passkeys, voice authentication.
  • Adaptive authentication with risk-based analytics and real-time ID threat detection and response (ITDR).
  • Continuous learning from user workflow patterns to spot anomalies and trigger step-up authentication (13:27–14:53).
  • Cloud-based approach for shared workstations, not just device-bound biometrics—critical for healthcare’s roaming users (15:09–15:55).
  • Dr. Kelly (13:27):
    “We see all the digital interactions and can use that data to learn the signals for what’s normal for you... and if you do something different... [require] step-up authentication...”

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Security vs. Usability (00:47):
  “Make the right thing to do the easy thing.” – Dr. Kelly

• On Password Elimination (01:23):
  “If it’s not there, you can’t be phished.” – Dr. Kelly

• On Workflow Friction (01:29):
  “Stop the frickin clicking.” – Dr. Kelly (from Spencer Herman, Hartford)

• On AI Risk (04:17):
  “[If the AI schedules wrong and harm happens], whose fault is that? I probably get sued for that.” – Dr. Kelly

• On Identity for Agents (04:37):
  “Just like it is for a human ID, it’s complicated with non human ID. Arguably more complicated.” – Dr. Kelly

• On Balancing Security and Ease (12:44):
  “You need more security but you also need more convenience and frictionless access. That is the key.” – Dr. Kelly

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Notable Stories & Tangents (with Timestamps)

• Tech History & Humor: "Page Boy" Video (05:27–08:13):
  Ed and Sean reminisce about their old satirical video mocking pagers—a relic of clinical workflows, filmed with a local humor troupe, culminating in a bizarre birth scene with a CPR dummy.

  • “We had an actress in stirrups and then Page Boy just popped right up. … I was cheering it on. And that’s when you looked up and said, ‘We can’t do this.’” – Sean (07:35)

• Clinical Highs and Close Calls

  • Night shift pranks with CPR babies (08:13–09:14)
  • Sweating through a July board meeting with John Halamka, who remained calm and dry (09:31–11:55)
  • Legendary company offsites and parties (Fuddruckers, casino hijinks) (20:11–23:46):
    “So I ordered 50 cheeseburgers and fries and two salads. … We open the door and look in, and it looks like a war zone… Not a cheeseburger in sight. And in the middle of the bed, two uneaten salads. Someone looks up… ‘Who the f*** got salads?!’” (23:39)

• Riskiest Behavior (23:59):
  Dr. Kelly recalls cliff-jumping during residency, noting physician overconfidence: “The death rate for physicians that are their own pilots is way right. … We grow up pushing our limits.”

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Forward-Looking Strategy (12:27–15:55)

• Accelerating the shift to passwordless authentication.
• Bringing risk-based adaptive security and real-time monitoring, using deep workflow analytics.
• Focusing on cloud-based identity solutions that match healthcare’s unique shared device and workflow environment.

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Personal Notes and Fun Facts

• Favorite Albums (32:56–34:41):
  • Joy Division – Closer
  • Wilco (deep cuts)
  • R.E.M. – Reckoning
  • U2 – Zooropa
  • Camp, Goose, Grateful Dead (Dead & Company)
• Interesting fact: He was college roommates with Matt Damon (34:58).
• Played (bad) violin as a kid—“air violin” to avoid screeching (35:04).
• Great at talking his way out of situations: “I would do well in prison, I think. ... Let’s not do this here in the shower. Let me figure out a way to get you more cigarettes.” – Ed (35:38)
• TV binge recommendations: The Penguin, Sopranos, Heartland (35:53–36:44)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |-------------|------------------------------------------------| | 00:37 | Security vs. convenience paradigm | | 01:17 | Passwordless tech & biometrics | | 03:41–04:18 | AI and patient safety, liability implications | | 04:34–05:04 | Identity challenges for AI agents | | 13:27–15:55 | Adaptive security & continuous authentication | | 20:11–23:46 | Imprivata party & Fuddruckers story | | 23:59 | Riskiest thing – cliff jumping | | 32:56–34:41 | Desert island albums | | 34:58 | Fun facts: Matt Damon, violin, fast talk |

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Final Thoughts

This episode blends deep technical insight with vivid anecdotes from the world of healthcare and startup life. Dr. Kelly’s vision is clear: security and convenience are not mutually exclusive in clinical tech, and identity (for humans and agents) will be at the heart of future innovation. The episode is rich with stories and lessons for anyone navigating the intersection of patient safety, security, and digital health transformation.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Welcome to Risk Never Sleeps, where we meet and get to know the people delivering patient care and protecting patient safety. I'm your host, Ed Gaudet. Welcome to the Risk Never Sleeps podcast. I feel like I should do like a reggae version of that. Welcome to the Risk Never Receipts podcast where we learn about the people that are on the front lines, like Dr. Sean Kelly, delivering patient care, but also protecting patient safety. You got like, Dr. Kelly, right? You do both?

[B]

We do both. I mean, the whole concept that it's a zero sum game where you either have security or you get convenience, we think that's totally broken.

[A]

You can have both.

[B]

The whole paradigm shift is you actually should demand more of both. Make the right thing to do the easy thing. And then doctors and nurses actually want to do that. You just got to give them good technology. We don't dislike technology. We dislike bad technology.

[A]

Yeah. And there's a lot of bad technology out there. But there's some good technology out there. Like improvada, for sure. Yeah.

[B]

You know, the things we're focusing on now that we get excited about are really modernizing that ability to get in and out of the system with things like facial biometrics and really moving to more passwordless.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

We're obsessed with trying to bury that password and eventually even get rid of it because it's not there.

[A]

You can't be phished. Yes. And you can't click either. No.

[B]

Click through.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Stop the frickin clicking.

[A]

Stop the freaking click.

[B]

That was.

[A]

Stop the freaking clicking.

[B]

Stop the frickin click.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

From Spencer Herman, who was at the time the cmio. Oh, in Connecticut.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I got to give him do props, but I think that was. That was his saying for all of his clinicians. Stop the frickin clicking.

[A]

From what organization? Oh, is it Harford? Yeah. Okay.

[B]

I remember where Joel is. Yeah.

[A]

Did you see him?

[B]

Our favorites.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Hung out with them. He spoke at our company meeting recently. Nice.

[A]

Just a great guy.

[B]

Leader and innovator in the industry. One of our favorites.

[A]

Yeah. Aaron. Mary.

[B]

You saw. Of course.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Good guy. Who else is still kicking around?

[B]

Oh, my gosh. So many of them.

[A]

Who else did you see here this week?

[B]

I'm on the chime board, so. Yeah. I mean, Terry Franks. Knightham. Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Frank was here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Keeps getting taller. He does.

[A]

Why is that?

[B]

Or I'm sure it's a relativistic thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Theory of relativity.

[A]

It looks like Abe Lincoln a little.

[B]

Trying to get that beard going more. You know, maybe we'll get him a top hat and see what happens.

[A]

Yeah, Fresh in a top hat would look pretty cool actually. What's your big takeaway from the four days?

[B]

Oh, God. It's an AI, of course. Right. And there's a lot. There's so much uncertainty in the world right now and I think AI is going to be absolutely game changer.

[A]

Not going away.

[B]

Not going away. Of course not. But I think where it gets interesting is AI exists in the real world. Until Skynet completely takes us over. I think that the edges of AI where AI hits human workflow is a really interesting and important space. And so I think that the governance and the security, privacy and compliance of AI that'll lag behind the innovative, productive nature of it. Right. I mean this always happens with technology. Something new comes out and people start to use it because it's useful. And then there's the oshit moment when they realize, wow, we let that thing out of the bag and it's off doing some very or it's not powerful things. Not doing, you know, hallucinating and you know, in clinical medicine, just to put the ER doctor hat on, if you think about agents out there doing things, even things that sound somewhat administrative, scheduling patients, for example, have really important clinical ramifications. So if you've got agents that are operating in your electronic medical record or your hospital and maybe even under my authority, and my name is it, is it not? I'm not sure. And maybe even third party apps and you've got this complex ecosystem. But regardless, the agents are out there, they may respond to a patient and schedule them. Let's say they're looking to get an ultrasound to rule out a blood clot in their leg and the thing schedules it for four weeks and lo and behold, a week later they come in with a massive pulmonary embolism clot in the lung.

[A]

That's not good.

[B]

And you miss that.

[A]

Whose fault is that?

[B]

Yeah, the agent did it in the EHR and then scheduled it under the auspices of the hospital. But was that in my name? Was that in the nurse's name? Like who's responsible? Who gets sued for that? I probably get sued for that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So understanding what agents are doing, what the identity does.

[A]

Identity is a big piece now of agentic.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, just like it is for a human id. It's complicated with non human id. Arguably more complicated. Yeah. Right. I mean they're doing it probably more things at larger scale.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's more difficult to patrol that. And you have to patrol them constantly to make sure Especially if it's probabilistic. Yeah. That they're not going off course and doing something else.

[A]

Yeah. Who's watching the agents? Yeah, yeah, we need an agent watcher. If you.

[B]

Well, I mean, Ed. Risk never sleeps. That's true.

[A]

Risk never.

[B]

I've heard that somewhere.

[A]

Thank.

[B]

Thank you. I can't unhear it.

[A]

Welcome to my world.

[B]

Well, I mean, it's no Page Boy, which you can unseen.

[A]

You know, it's so funny you brought up Page Boy because the thing about Facebook, think about technology in general, is once it's posted, it doesn't go away. And so this stuff keeps coming back every.

[B]

So you see these Page Boy monitors.

[A]

I get the videos.

[B]

So you gotta understand. Let's take us back to the Page Boy days, which people out there probably don't know about. But Ed came up with a great.

[A]

Don't blame me.

[B]

Oh, I don't know. I think you were the brainchild. I was egging you on for sure. And the whole concept was that pages are outdated and it's, you know, it's like medieval. Like a, you know, a page boy. Like a page boy.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Like, go get me this so that I'll do this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now there's much more modern things. So we kind of came up with a bunch of clinical scenarios. And then we casted with a local humor, like a humor troupe.

[A]

We went to a hospital.

[B]

Yeah, well, we. We did. But one of my hospitals we went to. And much to my chagrin, we found a place we'll never live down. And we filmed. We filmed. And the cast that we. Someone giving birth. This is. We'll get to that. So. So initially it didn't start off quite so severe, but we had this humor troupe and they came in and the guy that was going to play the lead at him had a big shaggy beard and I don't know, his hair didn't seem. It didn't have this weird cut to it. So anyhow, he was kind of a shaggy dude.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he was going to be Page Boy. And then the day when they showed up for filming, he was very clean shaven. And then the page boy cut we gave him was like a perfect woman's haircut. But he was obviously a big guy. And so there was just this very weird vibe to the whole thing. And then he was dressed up, of course, in a Page boy.

[A]

Yeah, it was very bizarre. It was very even for me.

[B]

Yeah. It was on the line.

[A]

That line of. In my crossing this line.

[B]

Yes. We were. We were so Far past the line. You couldn't see it back there.

[A]

But in my head, I wasn't. I was like, on it.

[B]

I didn't really think the line. I didn't think lap of the line. So you were right at the line, but it was. Turns out you were 440 yards back.

[A]

I'm like, is this is what it's like to feel uncomfortable?

[B]

You never felt uncomfortable?

[A]

Never felt uncomfortable before?

[B]

Yeah. It was a weird feeling. So we were filming different scenes and I do admit, at a certain point I was just all in, like, well, if we're going to do it, let's do it all the way. And so there were various, like, times when it up inconvenient to get a page. And we decided that one of the most inconvenient times would be, like, during delivering a baby. So we had an actress in the stirrups. And then Paige boy just popped right up right out of there. I was cheering it on. And that's when you looked up. You said, we can't do this. And I'm like, did I say that?

[A]

You did.

[B]

You did. Wow. And I said, holy cow, who are you? Don't be such a wimp.

[A]

Did I? I literally.

[B]

I'm so glad you remember that.

[A]

I don't remember these things.

[B]

I was living in the present, probably blocking this.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I just remember Chris with the baby

[B]

because, like a football.

[A]

Because we shot the baby out like this baby.

[B]

So those of you who don't know, like, in the simulation labs, we have like, CPR babies, little babies. And I actually remember that brings up another story. When we would work night shifts, we'd get really punchy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so we found this. One of the CPR babies is so realistic. It looks like. Oh, no, it looks like a baby.

[A]

You put some gel on that thing. It's like it just came out.

[B]

Yeah. So. Which is again, very inappropriate, but funny. So this is completely related to the page boy. But back in the day when I was working full time as an ER attending, we got one of those babies and we set up. One of the nurses was coming around the corner, night shift. And we're all very. Just tired. Yeah. We came flying around the corner. The baby just shot out of my hands intentionally.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

Flying across towards this poor nurse who didn't.

[A]

Did she catch it?

[B]

Yeah, but she fumbled it a couple times, then caught it and she was horrified. What is wrong with you? Everyone was in on except for the one charging her. She's. She had a great sense of humor. Not for about half an hour. Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Upset came a good story.

[A]

She still probably hears your name and shakes a little.

[B]

Yes. Like you do. I'm sure I do.

[A]

I. Yeah, no, I know. It's all coming back. I still remember the time we were meeting with. With Halamka, and we're sitting.

[B]

I can tell that story.

[A]

That's so cursory.

[B]

For those of you that know John Halonka, he's an unflappable paragon of the industry. Right. He's a legendary, brilliant guy and he's a vegan. So we decide to eat, I think, at the Charles Hotel. Yeah. There's a great restaurant at the base

[A]

of the hotel and the hottest day of the year.

[B]

So it's Cambridge and July. Yeah. You know, people that's not. Aren't from Boston don't realize sometimes in the summer it just gets incredibly hot and humid. And so we happened to pick one of those days and we meet John at his chosen restaurant. We showed up, Ed and I went over and parked in the parking garage. Down below was about 117 degrees and humid. We're both wearing suits. And so, like, you know, even I was sweating a little bit.

[A]

You were sweating?

[B]

Sweats at rest with. In a short sleeve coming out of a cold plunge. Yes. So to say, Ed was sweaty. Like he was flat out diaphoretic.

[A]

Yeah. Like, you know, it was crazy.

[B]

Water shooting out everywhere. That was like a Monty Python. It really was incredible. That was just like getting out of the car. So. And then, of course, there's no elevator, so we're walking up the steps. We get to the outside patio, which is blazing sunshine, which is where he

[A]

wants to meet us.

[B]

So I'm getting there. Oh, okay. So we get there and Ed. So excited. Ed starts. He's panting and. And, like, you know, waving his arm to try to dry off some of the sweat. We're taking a breather for a minute.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we survey the restaurant and the entire restaurants inside in the air conditioning. There are outside tables that are black. Yes, Outside on the patio in the, you know, 97 degree, like sunshine with humidity and John Hopkins walking out dressed all in black because he's almost always dressed in black. And he's got his black sport coat and black everything. Black, black, black pants. Calmly walks out, not a drop of sweat on him.

[A]

No.

[B]

And he's like, sit outside. He did.

[A]

He went.

[B]

So he went and got chairs. And the waiter kind of from inside, I see the waiter look up with a very sad, you know, look, because he's got the whole station Inside. And now these three yahoos are going to sit outside. And of course we're there to meet John when you know what he wants. Of course. Let's sit outside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Ed looks at me in terror.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's, you know, mopping his brow.

[A]

And so we got lost £20.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, you know, if you were a wrestler and trying to make weight, you would have made it. Yeah. So we sat there the whole time and you know John calm, cool and

[A]

collected, literally never sweat.

[B]

Didn't not, not one drop of sweat came down. I don't even think a poor even opened such mental fortitude that he was controlling.

[A]

And you were sweating too.

[B]

I was looking at you. I'm like sweating.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I had to literally part the sweat to see like.

[B]

Yeah, some of it was probably your sweat falling over me too. But it was. Yeah.

[A]

So. Oh my God. And those are only the stories we can tell right now.

[B]

Right?

[A]

True. Yeah, true. Ye. What are you focused on over the next two years? What are your key strategic initiatives?

[B]

We talked about a few of them. So passwordless to us. We're not trying to replace any of the current ways to get in and out of systems, but we think augmenting them with things like facial power metrics, pass keys, potentially voice in the near future and being able to mix and match that with workflow orchestration.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

And then putting adaptive auth in the background and this is a key part of it to use ITDR identity threat detection and response with risk based analytics in the background where you can get signaling for things like impossible Traveler known bad IP addresses. And so there's 30 plus more data signal streams coming in where every authentication event, you can query all that make sure that if someone's coming in from, you know, was involved in a breach before. Yeah. You can do a step up authentication and require 2, 3, 4 factors identity verification in real time. In real time. Sub second. Yeah. 200 milliseconds. Nice thing. This all happens. And the other interesting thing is in Bravada, we're on just about every endpoint, just about everywhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In healthcare so we see all the different digital interactions and we can use that data to learn the signals for what's normal and what's normal for you. Ed might not be as normal as what's normal for me or others, surprisingly. And your workflow, seriously, if you're a hospitalist and someone else is a pediatrician, someone else is a charge nurse, those all can look very different. Yeah. We can learn that pattern Load that in or watch it for a while and then we know what's normal for someone if they do something different. Like if I logged in right now to my EPIC account and happened to be in LA instead of Boston. Yeah. From it would know that's different. Require a step up authentication which can be completely legitimate. And if I am legitimate and I do facial biometrics with liveness detection, then I'm right in. Right. And so that's a, that's an example of again we open the connoisseur with look, you need more security but you also need more convenience and frictionless access. And so that is the key. Make it easier for those of us doctors and nurses trying to get in and staff to just do our jobs. Like we don't want to fight technology, we just want to see patients we signed up for that we didn't sign up to struggle with technology. But then keep the bad actors out by really keeping it. You know, you talk about zero trust authentication. Like this is the idea, like you're always checking every authentication event for a risk score in the background and you know, the facial biometrics is something that would be good to talk a little bit more about too. A lot of technology companies have taken the strategy to do device bound biometrics like face, like Windows hello or use your phone, it's on that device which if you're a user with one device in a consumer world that makes sense. In healthcare we operate very differently and

[A]

they're not our devices either. What's that? They're not our devices. We traverse many devices that aren't ours, they're part of the organization.

[B]

But yeah, absolutely. Like you know, in healthcare we're constantly hopping on and off different devices, shared workstation models and you know, like I might be on a workstation on Wheel and then I might do my own desktop and then I might go to a laptop, might have my phone or my tablet, so on and so forth. So what we've chosen to do is create a cloud based shared model where essentially that lives in the cloud, in the enterprise's private cloud so that they have control over that. Encrypted at rest, encrypted, cryptic in flight. It has liveness detection so it can't be spoofed that way. And then with analytics in the background, if people are coming in remotely and it's more high risk, you can demand a second factor along with it.

[A]

So along with the biometric?

[B]

Yeah, along with the biometric. Right, so.

[A]

So it works now finally.

[B]

Oh yeah, we've Been talking about this for years. Analytics. I know.

[A]

It's awesome.

[B]

We finally did it. Yeah. We've really been passionate, and there's so much coming out for. In the past, like, six months. We just have to keep updating people. It's a great problem to have where we're chugging things out.

[A]

Speaking of updating, you're like a different person.

[B]

Why is that?

[A]

I don't know. The way you wield the technology.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're just like, it's so smooth now.

[B]

Oh, you're saying it wasn't smooth before?

[A]

No, I just think you're. I look at you now and I see a CEO.

[B]

All right. Look at you. Yeah.

[A]

No, your next gig. Maybe.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

Maybe.

[B]

Could be.

[A]

We've talked about that in the past. Yeah.

[B]

Well, I know.

[A]

You sound like you're there.

[B]

I mean, it'd be fun.

[A]

Look, I think. And you're on a great ride now.

[B]

Oh, yeah. This is great. I'm happy. No, no, nothing.

[A]

You're taking on more responsibility.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Doing a lot of strategy.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

You know, I remember. You remember when I came on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I knew I could be the doctor guy. Yeah. That's easy. We created this huge network, and we're friends with just about everyone in the industry because we've been honest with them. Transparent. And you were part of the company, like, always trying to do the right thing.

[A]

Although nobody remembers me. I met somebody in the airport who had an Improvada bag, and I had my, too.

[B]

You're like, this is a nice act now.

[A]

He was in one. He was in admin or finance or whatever. And I said, oh, yeah, I used to work there. And he goes, oh, what was your name? He goes, oh, no, I don't know you. I said, oh, okay. What did you do? And I told him he did. Oh, no, no.

[B]

You were one of the creative geniuses. Doesn't ring a bell.

[A]

I'm like, oh, I've been completely eradicated, finally expunge, finally again.

[B]

Maybe people are blocking it out.

[A]

I don't know. But, no, it's been great to watch the company evolve and change and still see some of the familiar faces still there. And it's exciting.

[B]

Been a great ride. I mean, you know, the company went from the VC stage to, you know, we did the IPO together and Tomo. Bravo. Another time. It's been acquisitions.

[A]

You've been on. Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

It's been a lot of fun for me. I know you know this, but, like, what I'm most proud of and had the most fun is just learning how to run a company. Yeah. And being right in there with you guys kind of making those decisions. And some of those off sites we did at Mohegan Sun Foxwoods. Remember, we. Tom. Br. Once we started hitting quarters, is like, we can't change this. Like, we're not leaving the casinos.

[A]

We did change it and we missed a quarter.

[B]

If you remember.

[A]

I won't. I won't mention any names who decided to change the location, but.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. No. If you believe in the universe, you might not want to screw with the universe.

[B]

Lesson learned.

[A]

Lesson learned. No, it's a good time. We have so many stories. I mean, we could never act the way we acted.

[B]

No.

[A]

Back then, I mean, we had a band. We had.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Speaking of facial recognition, I wouldn't have recognized you and your kiss out. No.

[A]

Jesus. No.

[B]

I have some good drinking. We did.

[A]

Oh, my God. Criminal.

[B]

Yeah, Criminal.

[A]

I. You know, it's funny. I was in Boston for my sco for my kickoff, and it snowed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I remembered back in 2000, back in the days, 11 or 15 or something, it snowed in. And luckily.

[B]

So for those of you who don't know, there was one year. What, 15? Yeah. I don't remember.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One of the years, there's this huge blizzard right in the middle of January. Remember. To kick off. So the whole company was basically snowed in. The hotel staff was stuck there.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

God bless.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or things. And luckily the band made it in from Georgia.

[A]

Atlanta. Yeah.

[B]

So we had a band with us. We had all the essentials.

[A]

Over the moon or to the moon or something like that. Was it over the moon?

[B]

Was that. I think.

[A]

Yeah, I think it was. I hate to say it, but I think it was Donald Trump's band. Didn't he? Really? Was his house band from Mar a Lago.

[B]

I didn't even know.

[A]

You didn't?

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think. I believe. I believe. I can't remember.

[B]

No comms.

[A]

It was. Right.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

Please. No comment. This is not a political program. Let's not go there. But the band came and partied with us afterwards. If you remember for sure. Whoa.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Speaking of parties and rooms and I

[A]

wish people could see your smile right now.

[B]

Trust me, this is a safe story. Although it sounds like it's not.

[A]

I wish people could see you.

[B]

I know. This is a safe story. It sounds not, but I know you're gonna cringe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Go. So one of the times at Foxwoods, we had the after hours parties way up on the top floor.

[A]

Oh, you were there then, so.

[B]

Yes, I was. So. Yeah, I know you're cringing now. It's okay. Trust me. It's good. We have this huge party and we decide we need food, and there's no place with deliver. So I'm like, I'm going to Fuddruckers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I went down to Fuddruckers and I ordered like 50 cheeseburgers. That's right. And two salads. Do you remember that?

[A]

Yes, of course I remember.

[B]

So I ordered 50 cheeseburgers and fries and two salads. Bring it all up to the room. I'm like a hero. Everyone's jumping around. Tom, it had. Or maybe Jim Whalen had the robes on. Right. People were bouncing. It wasn't wailing.

[A]

It was. It was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like 60 people in a room of.

[B]

Yeah. And it was so crazy. And I'm like, you know what? We gotta get out of here. Like, I'm sure that security's coming. So, you know, as one of the executives, I think we're like, it's time to shut this down and get out of here. We started rid of some people, and then we're headed downstairs or. No, down the elevator.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Do you remember this? I think you might have been in the elevator with me.

[A]

Did you hit all.

[B]

Yes. You do remember.

[A]

No, no, I know. We keep going.

[B]

So we get to the bottom, the door opens and security piles and clearly headed up. We're about ready to walk out. On the way out, hit all elevator buttons. Hit every light up every button so that they're gonna hit him on the floor on the way in. And then we giggle and jump out of the elevator. It was like, elf, right? You know, and he's like. It's like a Christmas tree. It's so beautiful. And so the Sherry guys look at us. The door closes. Then we call upstairs, like, you know, everybody get out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I think we kind of helped scenario because most people left and it ended up. They just kind of.

[A]

Okay, so I'll tell you where I was when that happened. So I was in the bathroom with somebody. I won't mention any names, but you mentioned one of the names already. He was in the shower hiding with a case of beer under his arm, which I know at the time. And I was with this person, and I was. Had a cigar, and I was lighting up a cigar in the bathroom. And I was talking to her in the mirror. Through the mirror. We were talking to each other, like, through the mirror.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And she's like, we have to get out of here. I'm like, no, I'm smoking the cigar. She's like, you can't smoke in this room. You can't smoke in the hotel like this. You can't.

[B]

I don't care.

[A]

So I light it up, and she's like, we have to go now. The police are coming. And then all of a sudden, we hear somebody ruffle. And we open the shower curtain. It's Kim with the freaking zigzag. We have to go. So she grabs me. We walk out, and as we're walking down the hallway, these six, seven cops are coming down. And they were so pissed off because I had to go up the stairway because somebody

[B]

clicked all the buttons. They look like us meeting John Alonka.

[A]

So I was not in the elevator, but I was on the receiving end of that.

[B]

I thought I saved you. If you'd only gotten out 30 seconds earlier. So the other funny thing that happened then, that was a great. That was a great. We felt badly, so then wanted to go back up and make sure that no one, like, gotten hauled off in the paddy wagon or anything. So we went up and saw the aftermath. And this, to me, was the funniest thing of all. We open the door and look in, and it looks like a war zone. Like, you know, there's towels, Fud rucker bags. Fud rucker bags everywhere. Not a cheeseburger in sight. And in the middle of the bed, two uneaten salads. Someone looks up. Can I swear he sing it?

[A]

I guess so, yeah.

[B]

Someone. Someone looks up. We walk in and goes, who the got salads?

[A]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God, it's so great. What the hell?

[B]

And I'm like, yeah, you're right. Salads are quite dumb. Move. Yeah.

[A]

Don't try this at home, kids. Riskiest thing you've ever done.

[B]

I mean, there's a few different things, but the thing that I'll go with, I always go with the first thing that pops in mind, which is not always a good box, which I love. I love Viking. So when I was in my residency in doing the ER in Nashville, I just thought of a Vanderbilt. I'm sure there's more.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

But at Vanderbilt, a bunch of our ER friends and I, we would always laugh about the dumb things people would do that end up in the ER having the trauma right? Where it's like, here, hold my beer. You know what I mean? And then some.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Some redneck or my light bulb crazy. And. Yeah. And so. So we used to go to this Lake and they had these cliffs that you could just jump off of. And I'd never been there, heard about it. I'm like, well, I'm in. That sounds really fun. And so we pull up and there's just like a precipice that. And I think there's a lake over there and someone.

[A]

You can't see because it's dark.

[B]

Yeah, see, no, it wasn't dark. It wasn't dark. It was just day. But you couldn't. It was like a 50 foot drop with. It's huge. And these lakes in Tennessee are not just like a big, pristine, deep, wide open lake. They're like valleys that were dammed up and like rivers that. There's like a lot of stuff down there, right? Like hills and rocks and stuff that would hurt. Yeah, yeah. No idea yet. We opened the door and I just sprinted off the cliff. And you jumped into it and clearly I did.

[A]

Okay, you're the second guest that said

[B]

jumping off a cliff.

[A]

Cliff jumping. Yeah, yeah. And he's a doc too, and he's.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

This is like him. This is why I should connect you.

[B]

This is why we make really bad pilots. Really. The death rate for physicians that are their own pilots is way right. We're way overconfident because we do so much. We grow up like, pushing our limits. And you do these, these crazy 36 hours.

[A]

You are an overconfident guy. Remember the time you thought you were going to hit the Wiffle Ball pitch?

[B]

Going back to the Wiffle ball. See, the thing that kills me is I'm actually really good at. I'm really good at Wiffle Ball. And I so choke that day. And it kills me. It was your shorts in the poll we were talking about.

[A]

No, it wasn't my shorts. It was my politics.

[B]

Before that, we were talking about politics on the.

[A]

On the.

[B]

It was the mind games you.

[A]

You screwed with the best is what your son said. Do you remember what your son said to you? Go ahead, you could say it.

[B]

Actually, I don't remember exactly what he said. I just remember the look in his eye when he just shook his head and like looked at you and looked at me and just, I think like that's when he realized, you know, didn't

[A]

he say something like, that guy's a CEO or something? Or like something you play is. You couldn't hit his pitch, dad.

[B]

Like what it was. It was a low point in my life for sure.

[A]

You just couldn't hit it. I'm telling you, Dances on the pin.

[B]

I Think we need a rematch.

[A]

Well, that'll be a problem for me now because I have to be able to remove my leg and hip and rotate my hip. I'm not sure I can do that.

[B]

I'm not sure you see how it is.

[A]

Yeah. But when you brought up the residency, remember where we went to, Was it Almeida? Highland?

[B]

I was just telling story the other day. I have no idea. Oh, two customers.

[A]

Tell the store to customers. For real. So great.

[B]

I'll tell the story and you tell me if it resonates with what you think. So what I remember, we go to Alameda Health, which at that time was Highland General.

[A]

Yeah. They would just literally had the banner over the.

[B]

Yeah, they were just changing.

[A]

Changing the name. Yeah.

[B]

Fantastic hospital. People doing God's work, like, trauma, like you wouldn't believe. And I have other stories because I did a rotation there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I was actually, I'll tell that story first because that's kind of entertaining.

[A]

And how you would get there.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. You remember.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

So way back in the day, when I was in medical school, I did a rotation at Alameda County, Highland General because they have good trauma, but obviously that's bad trauma. Bad for the patient, good for training. Gunshots. And, you know, at the time it was the crack war. So this is where they would, you know, what do they call it?

[A]

Stabbing or dropping?

[B]

It was like a drop and run or something. But they would shoot people in the neck and then drop them off, drop them at the door of the ER so that they would survive but be paralyzed. This is awful.

[A]

So they could send a message.

[B]

Right. Awful stuff. But it was a lot of trauma and very good training. So I went out there to do a rotation. I stayed with some of my friends who were on a different pathway in life, who were doing like investment banking in San Francisco, driving. And so I was staying with them. But then I had to make my way over to Oakland. So I would take BART and then I would get on the city bus to do a night shift. But I couldn't just wear scrubs as like the little dorky kid going.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so that look like Doozy. I look like Doogie. How is your back? Sure. I was like 150 pounds pounds. And like, you know, I definitely would be a target.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I would wear baggy gray sweats over my scrubs and put the hoodie up and I would put a walkman on. Although I wouldn't listen to music, so I can still hear. And then I kind of bob my Head and look crazy so that nobody would see the people. Yeah, I was a little out of my mind. Yeah. They wouldn't, you know, mug me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I would get off the bus and walk up the hill and then I would take everything off, put scrubs on and go. So I was familiar with the hospital. I really have a real affinity for it. And it's just. They do great work. A great people. Some of the ER doctors that are just best ever. So we go back to visit. I'm all excited to visit, but it

[A]

was Highland and I'm not sure you knew what it was at the time. As we were driving up towards right.

[B]

And then we. And then I was like, oh, my God, this is what I've been like, oh, my God, I've been here. Yeah, this is how we were in those days. That's. That's actually, I forgot that point. We were driving, like, this is familiar.

[A]

And we were in a really.

[B]

I think I used to walk up this hill scared. Scared out of my life. So we go there and we show up at the hospital and we used to joke that it is in the basement there to get no respect. So we go to meet this guy who meets us.

[A]

But before we did. Do you remember when we walked into

[B]

the hospital, what happened? We do. That's right. I forgot about. Because this kind of stuff doesn't bother me. But you were freaked out. Yeah. We walked in and there was like this violent patient who gets taken down by security and a gun gets taken from. Yeah, just like shooter, like three feet from where we walked in.

[A]

Like, if we hadn't delayed coming up the. I think we did something where we didn't go right up right away or something, we would have been in the middle of that.

[B]

I forgot about that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It was crazy how they took him down. No problem. No problem.

[A]

No big deal.

[B]

We stepped over him. Basically. I'm like, not fake Ed. Ed is for. He was like, are we still going to do this? I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, just skip over him. Another day in the ER. So we. Eds already a little bit out of sorts and we go walking down and meet this. This guy who comes up and, you know, he's got like, his shirt's too small and his, like, you know, his sport coat barely fits. He's all kind of mussed up hair and he's just like bedraggled looking. He's like this way. And he kind of takes us through. Through a couple of doors and down some stairs. We Keep walking. And it's getting darker, and we go down some more stairs. She's. Where are we going? To the basement. We start to giggle a little because we're like, it's true. It's true. And we literally walk by the morgue. Morgue service. All of these, like, machines where they all go to die. All the extra stuff is walking down. And, like, you know, the hall, it's like, out of, like, Stranger Things. Like, the hallway lights are flickering and going out. It's just like, what the hell are we it here? So true. And so we walk down, we take yet another right, go down yet another thing. And then we walk into his office.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And his office is in the basement. But he's got a little string of windows up on top that were really thin. And he was a very big man. Yes. So there was no getting out of those windows for him. We're kind of looking at him and them because he was saying.

[A]

I think I said something like an earthquake.

[B]

There's no earthquake. And he's like, I know I'll be out of those windows. And then we're doing the math and the physics, and we're like, that ain't happening. There's no way you're getting in the those. Maybe your head's getting out and the rest of you stuck right here. Yeah, I remember we. We were looking, and kind of now we're getting the giggles because we're looking at each other. And so the poor guy was so, like, you know, overwhelmed, beaten down. And we were just like, oh, my God, it's true. And so we have start getting into the business conversation. And I. I don't know if you remember this part. This is the best part. So we're having this conversation. We're both thinking the same thing. Like, this guy is just like. Gets no respect, like Rodney Dangerfield. So we're sitting there having the conversation. Station, and the janitor comes through to empty his waste basket. And he cuts right through the three of us that are talking as if we weren't there. He doesn't give a damn. And the guy kind of looks up with this look of just like. That's right.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

He pauses. The guy walks through, empties the waste basket, spills a bunch of trash that basically just stays on the ground, stays there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He doesn't pick it up. His job, that is to pick it up. It up just is like, well, leave it there. He puts the waste paper basket back, walks out, can't make it up. And the guy that we're talking with. Kind of looks down at these four or five crumpled sheets of paper and he just. So defeated.

[A]

I'm thinking to myself, they're not buying anything from us.

[B]

When they say they have no. Let's go have a good.

[A]

Let's go have a good lunch. You're on a desert island. You can bring five records with you.

[B]

Five records. Geez. So. All right.

[A]

I know you're gonna nail this.

[B]

So I've been listening. Listening to. You ever go back to New Order? I love New.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Joy Division. So closer. So that'd be one thing I would bring. Okay. Good. Wilco. I go deep on Will.

[A]

Which one?

[B]

Love Wilco.

[A]

Me too. Do you like the Mermaid sessions with Billy?

[B]

You know what? So. Yes, but I don't. That whole extra country side of it. I love them. I love them. I went through a phase, but I'm not on that phase. Okay. Now. Okay. Which will call Alvin. Ghost. I forget yet.

[A]

Was it Ghost in the Machine? Which one has Company in my back?

[B]

Yeah, they're good, too. Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry.

[A]

That's okay.

[B]

Anyhow, love Wilco. Let's go with. Was that. That's only two REM Reckoning.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

That's good. Yeah. And then you two. Zopa. Which is not all the other stuff.

[A]

I love that album. Yeah. Yes.

[B]

And then maybe. I'm so glad you said that.

[A]

It's got so much energy. Yeah.

[B]

Ye. I love. And it's amazing that the. Of all the bands. It doesn't seem like U2 translates for the kids. A lot of other ones they love, but I don't know, they just didn't. I guess because for us, it was so.

[A]

So was like the Led Zeppelin presence of that Time Square.

[B]

I liked. I really. Yeah. Like. Like you two. And I never. I didn't see them at this Fear Regret. I kind of. If they ever went back, I would definitely do that. Oh, camp. I like camp a lot, dude. My favorite bands.

[A]

Oh, my God, I'm so into camp. Camp.

[B]

Yeah. You like Goose? Oh, I love Goose.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Chapstick. Fantastic. Of course. So that would be some of the.

[A]

You should have gone to the Dead, man. You should have gone to the Dead Company.

[B]

I've been to the Dead Company. She's like, yeah, I've been there. Oh, I didn't.

[A]

Did you go to the Sphere?

[B]

Oh, not the Sphere. I'm sorry. Yeah.

[A]

I just.

[B]

At Fenway. So I didn't see him at the Sphere. I would see him at Sphere if I could. Yeah.

[A]

Wow. Interesting fact that most people don't know about you. I can tell, like, four, but I

[B]

know there's a lot on.

[A]

Who's your roommate in college?

[B]

No, that was Matt Damon. I'll just go with that, I guess. Okay. Seems like kind of lame one.

[A]

Okay. What else? You know where the.

[B]

I played violin when I was a kid, and I was terrible. I used to play air violin. I was so bad. No, you didn't know that. That's why I picked it. Want to pick something you didn't know? Yeah.

[A]

Air violin.

[B]

Well, I would play violin, but it was so screechy that I didn't want to just, like, mess up the sound for anybody else, so I'd kind of just kind of fake it most of the time. Play as much as I could.

[A]

You like violin?

[B]

I just tried it. I did it when a kid. I mean. Yeah. Not really that I could have. Yeah, I guess so. I don't know.

[A]

You probably talked your way out of a lot of situations, like me, right?

[B]

Oh, yeah. That was definitely one of them.

[A]

Yeah. I would do well in prison, I think, because I would talk my way out of it. Okay. Like, hey, guys, like, let's not do this here in the shower thing. Let's actually. Let me figure out a way to get you more cigarettes, because I can do that.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You can call me the Accountant.

[B]

Right. Have you seen the Penguin?

[A]

No.

[B]

You should watch the Penguin. I know it's not.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Colin Farrell's, like, unrecognized. You'd really like, like it. You should check that out. The other thing I rewatched. I've just started rewatching is Sopranos.

[A]

Oh, me too.

[B]

So fun.

[A]

Dude, who are we? Like, that's a great show.

[B]

And you forget the other thing.

[A]

First couple of seasons are amazing.

[B]

So good. Dr. Melie. And then the other thing that's so great if you go back, because I got so tired of, like, I would find something new and I'd watch a season be over in five episodes. Yeah. Do any work? Like, you go back and watch these shows like Lost or sopranos, it's like 14, 15 episodes. It's a season. Like, they worked back then.

[A]

Well, you can watch Heartland. It has, like, 400 seasons. You know how?

[B]

No, I don't think I do.

[A]

It's like a Canadian program, and it

[B]

literally chronicles, like, a real time. Is it what?

[A]

My wife and my girls love this show.

[B]

Oh, it's.

[A]

It's. It's set in Canada. And bam.

[B]

How are the wife and girls? Does your wife still shovel the snow off your roof, Floyd. She was doing it this today.

[A]

Yesterday.

[B]

Ridiculous.

[A]

Yesterday.

[B]

Dude, you got to. Literally.

[A]

My daughter was holding her by the shirt out the window.

[B]

What I have.

[A]

These are.

[B]

These are the kind of things we talk about in the year. I have an ER story, so.

[A]

I can't believe you remember.

[B]

I literally. She was doing it this week again while I'm gone crazy. Yeah, you don't do anything. She does everything. I think. One more, one more, one more. ER story. So we had a guy come in with a bunch of fractures, and the story was that he was painting the back of his house and he had a step ladder. But as you know, like, a lot of times those little step ladders just don't go that high. So standing on the top of it and it was getting all, like, you know, losing his balance. He's wiggling around. He's like, I'm gonna fall off of this thing. And he's. He's almost at the top. He's got, like a foot left to go under the even. He's like, I just gotta finish this last. It's always that last, last run down on slopes that gets you, right? So he's like, I just gotta. I mean. So he tied a rope to his belt and he threw it over his roof and tied it to the pickup truck bumper on the front, keep it stabilized, pulled it all tight so that if he fell, he wouldn't fall. Right. Didn't tell his wife what he was doing, who got in the pickup truck and went, sh. So he got pulled up over the house, down the other side into the driveway and keel basically around the corner till his wife looked up in the rear view mirror and realized she was dragging her husband behind him. So he did okay. He had a lot of. He had a broken pelvis and a lot of broken bones, but he didn't. That's a true story.

[A]

Not where I thought you were gonna go.

[B]

That Safety first.

[A]

Why can't that be in America's Funniest Videos?

[B]

A little. A little. That much?

[A]

That's insane. Yeah. Happen.

[B]

People do things.

[A]

Yeah. People are people.

[B]

People do things.

[A]

Sean, always a pleasure.

[B]

Yes, you too, Ed.

[A]

Ed Gaudet Sleeps podcast. If you're on the front lines protecting patient safety and delivering patient care like Dr. Sean Kelly, remember to stay vigilant because say it with me. Risk never sleeps. Thanks for listening to Risk Never Sleeps. For the show, notes, resources and more information and how to transform the protection of patient safety. Visit [e-mail] that's C-E N S I N E T.com I'm your host, Ed Gaudet. And until next time, stay vigilant, because risk never sleeps.