Risky Bulletin — Between Two Nerds: Teenage Hackers Are Like Goldfish

Podcast: Risky Business / Risky Bulletin
Episode: Between Two Nerds: Teenage hackers are like goldfish
Release Date: August 25, 2025
Hosts: Tommy Wren ("A") and Grok ("B")

Overview

In this episode, Tommy Wren and Grok delve into the dynamics of teenage hacker groups, using recent headlines and a major court case to explore how these communities operate, how leadership works, and whether law enforcement actions like arrests actually disrupt cybercrime activity. The discussion is peppered with analogies to Hollywood, Roman emperors, and goldfish, offering a spirited, irreverent tone as the hosts pick apart the myth and reality of adolescent hacking crews.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Are Teenage Hacker "Gangs" Really Collaborating?

• The episode opens with the news that three notorious cybercrime groups—Scattered Spider, Shiny Hunters, and Lapsus—appear to be "collaborating" per a headline in The Register ([00:11]).
• Tommy explains that these "gangs" are not fixed entities, but offshoots from a much larger, loose community informally known as "the Comm" ([00:38–01:30]).
• Insight: The boundaries between these groups are fuzzy, and the term “collaboration” may not mean much. These are overlapping social circles rather than structured organizations ([12:17]).

2. Leadership and Group Structure: The Hollywood Analogy

• Tommy and Grok compare these groups to Hollywood movie crews—arresting the cast and crew of one film won't stop Hollywood ([01:30–02:47]).
• Shift in Thinking: Recent intel suggests key “lead actors” drive these groups, as opposed to a totally interchangeable crowd ([02:47–03:27]).
• Grok: "It's a bit more like...there's a bully with some hangers on...but if you remove the bully, one of the hackers on might step up into that role." ([03:27])
• Insight: There’s a pecking order—“top dogs” can be replaced, but only by a few with the right characteristics ([03:59–04:23]).

3. Nature of the Community: Competition, Status, and Skill

• These communities are described as "communities of practice," where status is gained by showing off techniques, not by efficient teamwork ([07:32–10:13]).
• Grok: "There’s this low skill level, high reward set of techniques that they can use." ([07:32])
• Not all members are technically brilliant—many excel at using simple techniques effectively ([08:52–09:13]).
• Insight: Skill is not the same as sophistication: "These are highly skilled, low sophistication practitioners." ([09:13])

4. Motivation and Social Dynamics

• Status is the primary reward, and collaboration is limited because individual standing is fiercely guarded ([12:49–14:00]).
• Tommy: "The reward is individual status, and you can't collaborate on individual status." ([13:47])
• Only a handful strive for the "lead actor" role; most are bit players seeking vicarious thrills ([10:17–12:02]).

5. Impact of Law Enforcement and Arrests

• The sentencing of a Scattered Spider hacker ("King Bob"/"Sosa") to 10 years in prison and $13 million restitution is discussed ([14:00–16:24]).
• Grok: "That’s a lot like, back to Hollywood—child actors...super rich by the time they're 18, but it just never ends well." ([15:07])
• The group is reckless: one incident involved hacking a magistrate judge's email while a member was in custody ([19:02–19:33]).
• Tommy: "Urban sounds like a lead actor to me in that he got involved in so much stuff...arresting people like Urban will actually make a dent. Now I'm not convinced it'll make a long-term dent..." ([19:33–20:09])

6. Lead Actors Are Finite, but Replacements Appear

• There’s an evolving pipeline: some will step up as others fall ([20:09–21:10]):
  • "As we framed it, it's low sophistication, but high skill." — Grok ([21:02])
• The metaphor—a "rolling educational process"—suggests the cycle will repeat, though perhaps with some disruption ([21:23–21:28]).

7. Effectiveness of Deterrence and the Goldfish Problem

• The hosts debate whether deterrence works:
  • Grok: "In order to do this stuff...you have to feel like you're never going to get caught because you're the best." ([21:28–22:57])
  • Tommy: "The problem with deterring teenagers with poor impulse control is like it's trying to deter goldfish." ([23:07])
• Teen hackers rarely internalize lessons from others—they don’t anticipate consequences ([23:18–23:54]).

8. The Feedback Loop Problem

• Unlike cartels, hacker groups can’t learn from others’ mistakes because only the "lead actors" take real risks and get arrested ([24:20–26:53]).
• Grok: "When they make a security mistake, the only person that's going to learn from it is the person who's going to jail—and it's not going to do him any good." ([26:32])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Grok:
  “It's a bit more like the case of there's a bully with some hangers on, right? ...if you remove that person, then now they can shine.” ([03:27])
• Tommy:
  "If you arrest the cast and crew of one movie, are you going to stop Hollywood?" ([01:30])
  "The reward is individual status, and you can't collaborate on individual status." ([13:47])
  "The problem with deterring teenagers with poor impulse control is... like trying to deter goldfish." ([23:07])
• Grok:
  "These are highly skilled, low sophistication practitioners." ([09:13])
  "When they make a security mistake, the only person that's going to learn from it is the person who's going to jail and it's not going to do him any good." ([26:32])
• On Community Dynamics:
  Tommy: “Participating is the equivalent of waiting tables in Los Angeles.” ([28:50])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• “Collaboration” headline and group background: [00:11–02:47]
• Leadership structure & the Hollywood analogy: [02:47–05:25]
• Community dynamics and status-seeking: [07:32–12:17]
• Discussion of the recent sentencing: [14:00–16:24]
• Do arrests disrupt these groups? [19:33–21:28]
• Can deterrence work / Goldfish analogy: [22:57–23:18]
• Why hacker groups don’t learn from mistakes: [24:20–26:53]
• Closings—Hollywood/star metaphor: [28:03–29:13]

Takeaways

• Teenage hacker crews are less structured “gangs” and more social circles loosely organized around status games, like online forums or Reddit, with a few driving personalities acting as "lead actors."
• Law enforcement arrests of key players can disrupt major activity, but new "lead actors" are likely to arise due to the continuous influx and status-seeking nature of these communities.
• Deterrence is weak because "teenage hackers are like goldfish"—bad at processing long-term consequences, surrounded by lax security, and unlikely to internalize lessons from others’ mistakes.
• Ultimately, the cycle persists: “there’s always someone waiting tables in LA, dreaming of stardom”—just as there’s always a new status-hungry teenager ready to try hacking for the thrill.